1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,240 What's up y'all is Drewski and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,720 hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewski. Learn the backstories of 3 00:00:08,759 --> 00:00:12,240 your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,720 team? Was it the Raptors at the time? Or no? Was the 5 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,679 Raptors even started on the topic? Come on, bro, hid that tell 6 00:00:18,719 --> 00:00:22,120 you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and anymore. You won't 7 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,239 want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewski on Apple Podcasts, 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:34,600 Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey, there we have Blueire. 9 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:37,640 Just wanted to take a second thank you for listening to this podcast. 10 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:42,079 You know, everything outside it's pretty scary and uncertain, but we're committed to 11 00:00:42,119 --> 00:00:45,439 helping you get through your day by talking about the sports and teams that you 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,439 love most. If you're looking for more great podcasts to distract you, check 13 00:00:49,439 --> 00:00:53,840 out Blue iirepods dot com. Thanks for listening, enjoy the podcast and stay 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:01:11,760 safe. What is poppin? Hardwin Knox listeners, I Am dand Valley coming 15 00:01:11,799 --> 00:01:15,079 out you once again without Andrew D. Bailey. I am, however, 16 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,879 as usual, super pleased to be joined by Adam Prommel. He is the 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,359 founder and editor in chief of NBA math. We are continuing our player decade 18 00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:27,640 rankings for each and every team. We're up to the Chicago Bulls. Before 19 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:33,280 we get into a conversation with him, just want to continue reminding, imploring, 20 00:01:33,359 --> 00:01:36,680 begging, and pleading with everyone. Great review. Subscribe to us on 21 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,200 iTunes. That's the best way to help out the show. If you've done 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,760 all those things, If you're listening to us on another podcast player already, 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,599 make sure you're downloading all of our episodes. Please resweet the promotions that we're 24 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:49,840 coming up with for these exercises. Anything you could do to help us continue 25 00:01:49,879 --> 00:01:55,239 to build this community, we'd be very much appreciative of. Last, but 26 00:01:55,319 --> 00:02:00,280 certainly not least shout out to our sponsor bet online dot ag for making this 27 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:04,599 podcast possible. You'll be hearing from them in just a short while, But 28 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:08,400 for now, let's get to talking some Chicago Bulls player rankings with Adam Frommel 29 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,800 Adam, how goes it? It's going pretty well. You know, you 30 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,759 and I were just talking before we started recording about how my almost sixteen month 31 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:23,080 old son is learning his Marvel superheroes so he can do the black panther will 32 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,879 Conda symbol. He loves saying yon do. So I feel like it's been 33 00:02:28,159 --> 00:02:30,080 a good, successful morning for me so far. You know, he's gonna 34 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:34,919 end up being awesome because he's doing the black panther symbol already, so he's 35 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,120 already got That's my hope in the Marvel, that's my hope. It's like 36 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:38,199 it's one of the few things I've done right so far. I think, 37 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,879 just make sure he doesn't grow up to love Thor two, and then everything 38 00:02:42,879 --> 00:02:45,759 in his life will fall into place after that. I mean, that's gonna 39 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,479 be tough because thor is definitely my wife's favorite, both because of the character 40 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,639 and Chris Timsworth. Look. I like Thor one and I love Thor three, 41 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,360 but Thor two was and I'm pretty like, I don't know what the 42 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,960 word would be. I feel like I'm basic when it comes to movies and 43 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:05,039 TV shows, and so you'll very rarely hear me say that I hate anything. 44 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:08,199 But Thor two was just not great. I'll still watch it, but 45 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,960 it just it wasn't great. It's it's very bad. I'm totally with you 46 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,039 there. Thor three was excellent. I don't I don't really like the first 47 00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:19,919 one either, though, you know, just it was fun in the moment, 48 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:23,199 but watching it back, I just there's not much to it. It 49 00:03:23,319 --> 00:03:25,400 just it feels kind of boring. The third one made you kind of wonder 50 00:03:25,439 --> 00:03:29,719 why they didn't inject that sort of personality into the first two movies, and 51 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:31,680 so maybe it ruined the first one a little bit, right. I think 52 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:37,199 like Taikitt was the first director who like really realized the comedic chops that Chris 53 00:03:37,199 --> 00:03:40,000 Hemsworth has and unleashed it. We could talk about this for a long time. 54 00:03:40,039 --> 00:03:43,560 Well, if you think about it, since we're doing the Chicago Bulls 55 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:47,960 player rankings for the decade, they're like the thor one of NBA decade player 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,759 rankings because it's not bad like it's thor two, But there's probably better case 57 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,800 studies, like there are thor threes out there. It's just that the Chicago 58 00:03:54,800 --> 00:04:00,840 Bulls aren't it. That was a really forced and yet pretty solid segue. 59 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:03,560 Let's get started. Let's get right into it. Though. We have the 60 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,840 top ten players, so the Chicago Bulls of the decade, who turned up 61 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:11,439 at number ten in our composite ranking. Yeah, I think this is the 62 00:04:11,479 --> 00:04:15,919 first time it's happened, But there was unanimity for the number ten spot. 63 00:04:15,399 --> 00:04:19,399 The fans, me and you all had Kirk Heinrich at number ten, which 64 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:24,519 I think is a It's a fun shout to a guy who most of his 65 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,399 time in Chicago did not count for our purposes because he left played for a 66 00:04:29,439 --> 00:04:33,639 couple of other organizations before coming back to Chicago for the twenty twelve thirteen season. 67 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,759 But he was a solid role player, a solid offensive player, who 68 00:04:38,759 --> 00:04:42,959 could distribute capably, who could shoot threes, and he played a fairly substantial 69 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,160 part on three straight playoff teams. So I get why we all wanted him 70 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:50,600 at ten, even if he's definitely not the most glamorous possibility there. He 71 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:56,199 was part of that subset of guards in Chicago that always seemed like they came 72 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:01,000 up big during you know what, like that wasn't Derrick Rose is my point, 73 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,199 like those remember the Nate Robinson run. He would him Rich is Obviously 74 00:05:05,439 --> 00:05:09,240 he was in Chicago a lot earlier and then he was back there a little 75 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,279 bit later. But we think about Nate Robinson, who was who is the 76 00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:14,959 other one. They just became novel and I feel like I just remember him 77 00:05:14,959 --> 00:05:18,720 having a bunch of moments with Chicago, particularly after Derek Rose did end up 78 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,319 suffering his a c L injury and he's back with the Bulls in twenty twelve 79 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,360 through I think it ended up being almost twenty sixteen at that point, and 80 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:31,079 I just remember him kind of like you said, it's a solid playmaker, 81 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,879 but just hitting hitting shots and having games where it was oh, Kirk Heimrick 82 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:40,879 was really really good. And that's just what I associate with him, is 83 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:45,319 that subset of guards who were not Derek Rose that always ended up coming up 84 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,160 solid for the Bulls. Yeah, and I think there's something to the Captain 85 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:55,480 Kirk persona too, where just his importance in a leadership and mentor role really 86 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:00,920 can't be overstated too, so that he definitely fills the intangibles criteria as well. 87 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,639 And he look he shot fairly well for them from beyond the arc during 88 00:06:04,639 --> 00:06:10,079 the playoffs stints that fall under this decade, three of them in which except 89 00:06:10,079 --> 00:06:12,639 for that latter one where he was three of nine overall, and so just 90 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,879 having that reliable Oh no, I'm looking at two pointers there that was a 91 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,240 rough postseason for him, but it's sort of having the reliable game manager. 92 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:25,639 I don't know if you would call him underrated, but I actually didn't expect 93 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:30,040 him to turn up in number ten. I thought that the either you or 94 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:32,439 the fan vote and then the composite by extension might have ended up turning in 95 00:06:32,519 --> 00:06:35,560 a different number ten guy. But we'll get into those with the honorable mentions 96 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:42,040 obviously. Yeah, I've very strongly considered Mike Dunleavy for that spot, and 97 00:06:42,879 --> 00:06:46,560 it was a last minute change that had Heinrich grabbing the ten spot. For 98 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,319 me, I was torn with lowry marketing. Was the guy that I still 99 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:55,839 kind of regret leaving spoiler at leaving him off the list. Yeah, No, 100 00:06:55,959 --> 00:07:00,319 I didn't really consider marketing him that strongly, just because to me, 101 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:05,040 he's he's shown what he can do, mostly at the end of that twenty 102 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:11,519 eighteen nineteen season where he caught fire and looked like a future star. But 103 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,360 this this current season has has been disappointing for him. He hasn't been able 104 00:07:15,399 --> 00:07:20,439 to stay healthy. The offensive prowess has just kind of dried up. Maybe 105 00:07:20,519 --> 00:07:25,160 it's because there's not enough talent around him right now. Maybe it's because he's 106 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,160 learning how to defer to more to guards that are controlling possessions more than they 107 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,680 did early in his career. But yeah, that the fans had market at 108 00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:40,680 number nine, We both had Nikolamirotich at number nine, who did end up 109 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:46,199 at in that ninth place spot on the Composite rankings. Yeah, it's with 110 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:48,720 marketing. To your point, there's definitely been. It seems like the even 111 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,920 the past two years, because he was injured last year, dealt with injuries 112 00:07:51,959 --> 00:07:56,399 this year, and even when he was on fire, didn't really feel like 113 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,199 he kind of ever reached that extra level as a score. And I don't 114 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,240 know how much of that is. Maybe the Jim Boylan impact of a big 115 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,399 thing in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen was they just got him the ball in terrible 116 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,279 spots both on the court and in the shot clock. And then you look 117 00:08:11,279 --> 00:08:15,360 at the talent around him, and there's not necessarily a clear path to him, 118 00:08:15,399 --> 00:08:18,279 you know, expanding his role at least not clearly, particularly after the 119 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:22,360 addition of of Kobe White, and you figure out having zach Lavine, you 120 00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:26,240 also want Wendell Carter Junior to be able to do things, so it's it's 121 00:08:26,279 --> 00:08:31,079 definitely complicated for him. I almost regret not putting him him on though the 122 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Colmer Titch has the he has the theiriness factor over marketing. When you look 123 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,200 at the the minutes played for the Bulls during during this stretch only slightly though 124 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,200 eighty minutes played for the Bulls. He was he was sort of fascinating. 125 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:50,120 Do you remember him as being overrated or underrated as a shooter. I kind 126 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,320 of feel like I tilt towards more overrated. Where it was you expected him 127 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,440 to be like this, Really we just called him this floor spacing four, 128 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:03,360 that, this this knockdown shore, and his percentages never really seemed to align 129 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,559 with that during his time in Chicago. Interesting, I'm in the opposite camp 130 00:09:07,639 --> 00:09:13,240 for him. I think that the overall numbers are dragged down by that rookie 131 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,799 season in twenty fourteen fifteen, where he was really trying to adjust to playing 132 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,080 in the NBA and playing in a competitive team where he didn't really have as 133 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,519 defined a role. But after that, like as a sophomore thirty nine percent 134 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:28,799 on five point two attempts per game, he regressed in twenty sixteen seventeen thirty 135 00:09:28,799 --> 00:09:31,480 four point two percent on five point four attempts per game. But before he 136 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:35,039 was traded to the Pelicans in twenty seventeen eighteen, like that was his magnum 137 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,879 opus forty two point nine percent on six point four deep attempts per game, 138 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,399 And it was that season where he really became like an offensive powerhouse and a 139 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,159 smaller role. And I think that's probably more how I remember him, which 140 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:52,799 is an inflated perception, but to me, the role that he grew in 141 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,120 outweighed some of those struggles at the beginning of his career. The rookie season, 142 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,120 probably if you're willing to throw that out, which is totally fine, 143 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,919 that probably contributes to it, because when you look at the splits, it's 144 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,679 thirty one point six percent from three then thirty nine, but then it's down 145 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,879 at thirty four point two, and then it's up to before he was traded 146 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:11,600 to New Orleans forty two point nine with the Bulls that year, and so 147 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:16,320 that's definitely there's definitely something to that there. Then it just felt like he 148 00:10:16,399 --> 00:10:22,320 was more of a seesaw and that he grappled with the similar identity crisis to 149 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,559 what marketing is going through now. I don't think he was ever supposed to 150 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:30,919 be the level of player that marketing is supposed to be, or was supposed 151 00:10:30,919 --> 00:10:33,919 to be, depending on how out on him you are now. It probably 152 00:10:33,919 --> 00:10:37,639 doesn't help though, when you look at how many injuries the Bulls dealt with 153 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:43,240 during those beginning years when he was in Chicago, and so he's dealing with 154 00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:48,240 a lot of different types of not just personnel but the means by which which 155 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:50,240 they play, and so that certainly could have dragged him down too. But 156 00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:54,759 he sort of he is a little bit synonymous with those you know, Joe 157 00:10:54,879 --> 00:11:01,600 Kim error post Rose being an MVP candidate, even though he comes in later 158 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:07,120 into the equation, he's still kind of associated with that group. Yeah, 159 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:11,399 no, I'm in total agreement with all of that. I definitely don't put 160 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:16,240 him in the same category as as Mark Kennon. I think that he never 161 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:20,039 displayed quite as much all around offensive potential. It was it was more just 162 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:26,200 like the shooting stroke that that buoyed his stock. So I never really felt 163 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,000 that he was too much of a disappointment. He was just he was just 164 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,519 solid. Yeah, I don't view him as a disappointment at all. I'm 165 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:37,360 just I wonder if there's a case to be made to have There's definitely want 166 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,320 to have Marked in over Heinrich. I wonder if you could also have him 167 00:11:41,399 --> 00:11:46,720 over Merrittagment. Maybe not though, Yeah, unless you just weigh the peak 168 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:52,120 that Markennon had in like in like late February of what was at twenty nineteen 169 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:58,360 where where everything clicked. I think that's the only the only real reasoning where 170 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,840 I that I'd be okay with for having him ahead of him. Attention Hardwood 171 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,759 Knocks listeners. With currently no NBA, NHL, or MLB, you might 172 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,240 think that there's nothing to bet on, Well, you'd be wrong. Our 173 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:13,879 exclusive partner, bet online still has hundreds of events, games and props to 174 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,480 wager on, from their online casino to poker and blackjack. They're bringing Vegas 175 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,679 to you. Missing the NFL no problem. Bet Online has live daily Madden 176 00:12:24,799 --> 00:12:28,759 NFL twenty simulations you can bet on. You can also bet on Survivor, 177 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:33,080 Big Brother, American Idol, stock prices, even the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating 178 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,000 Contest. All open twenty four hours a day and all online. Use promo 179 00:12:37,039 --> 00:12:41,000 code blue Wire to join today and receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo 180 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:48,519 code blue wire all one word bet online. You're online wagering experts. Who 181 00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:52,279 is checks in it? I believe we had a tie for number seven, 182 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:56,360 since we're ben skipping number eight. Yeah, we do have a tie for 183 00:12:56,399 --> 00:13:00,120 seven place. And let's go ahead and start with Carlos Boozer, who's a 184 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:07,360 really interesting figure in Chicago's recent history, just because solid offense, solid rebounding, 185 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,440 not really much of a defensive presence. I think that he was largely 186 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,360 underrated during his time in Chicago. It was obvious that he was no longer 187 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,720 the dominant figure that he was with the Utah Jazz earlier in his career. 188 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:24,759 But then again, like that twenty thirteen playoff run, that was a big 189 00:13:24,759 --> 00:13:26,639 deal for me and one of the reasons that I had him at seventh, 190 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:31,120 which is the same spot that both you and the fans had him, you 191 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,679 know, during the first round series against the Brooklyn Nets that went seven games, 192 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,879 seventeen point four points and ten point six rebounds per game, shooting fifty 193 00:13:37,919 --> 00:13:41,000 four point five percent from the field. And then in the second round series, 194 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:46,840 which was ultimately a loss to Lebron James's Miami Heat, like the last 195 00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:50,919 three games of that series, He was a huge offensive contributor for that team 196 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:52,559 and kept them in a lot of games that would otherwise have been blowouts. 197 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:58,600 So just performing at that level with the spotlight as bright as it was, 198 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:05,120 was my reasoning for having him up at seven. I not that I view 199 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,360 having him at I had him at eight in it, I believe, And 200 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:11,799 so we all had him at seven. Oh, we both had m oh 201 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:13,759 I did wow, well, I would have put I considered putting him lower, 202 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,279 and I definitely wasn't gonna put him any higher than seven. I think 203 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,559 you initially might have had him a little bit higher. Definitely sort of a 204 00:14:20,639 --> 00:14:24,399 steadying scorer and rebounder during the regular season, but he was never the most 205 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:30,240 efficient offensive player when I came to the playoffs, and he has that I 206 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,320 really consider memorable, like one really good playoff campaign, and it's the one 207 00:14:35,759 --> 00:14:37,639 I think it's the one where the Bulls played through twelve games. Was it 208 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,960 that that their conference finals year in twenty twelve twenty thirteen, I can't remember 209 00:14:43,039 --> 00:14:46,399 right now, but that to me they made it to the semi finals. 210 00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:50,120 So I remember him being good that year, but I just don't really remember 211 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,600 him having any hallmark playoff moments, and that's why I couldn't That's why I 212 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,320 toyed with, Hey, maybe zach Lavine should go in front of him. 213 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,840 Probably couldn't put him any lower than seven or eight, But I was of 214 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:03,039 the mind that I was really struggling to put him any higher. And when 215 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,559 you get into not to spoil anything, but when you get into cases, 216 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:11,080 for if you're trying to talk about Pau Gasol or ATAJ. Gibson, if 217 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,000 you want him on the level, I think Gasol would probably be the most 218 00:15:15,039 --> 00:15:18,240 likely one to where people would debate between he and Boozer, and I just 219 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,000 I struggled to just for my playoff memories with Carlos Boozer, I sort of 220 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,480 struggled to put him any higher than where we have him right, And I 221 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:31,159 do think that the theirness factor that we've talked about in pretty much every one 222 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:37,480 of these episodes now is important here as well. I didn't realize until looking 223 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,879 it up while while researching for these rankings, but Boozer has played more games 224 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,879 than Derrick Rose for Chicago this decade. He's fourth on that list. He's 225 00:15:46,279 --> 00:15:50,000 fifth and minutes played also ahead of Rose, ahead of Kirk Heinrich and miroticch 226 00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:56,639 so that definitely has to matter here as well. No, I'm totally with 227 00:15:56,679 --> 00:16:00,559 you. I think he's properly placed. His was just he might have been 228 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:07,240 the toughest one on the list among anyone for me to pinpoint. For me, 229 00:16:07,279 --> 00:16:10,519 it was actually the guy he's tied with at number seven, which is 230 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:14,879 Zach Lavigne. Lavigne showed up at fifth place in the fan vote. Both 231 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,559 you and I had him at eight. Spoiler alert, Dan and I have 232 00:16:17,679 --> 00:16:23,480 like almost identical rankings throughout this entire Chicago Bulls podcast. I think there's only 233 00:16:23,519 --> 00:16:27,679 one difference where our fourth and fifth places are swapped. But yeah, Lavine 234 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:34,000 was tricky for me because he has put up such massive scoring numbers and become 235 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,919 such a reliable offensive presence. You know, at the beginning of last season, 236 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,159 when he was averaging like close to thirty points per game at the start 237 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,960 of the year, it seemed like there was a possibility that he could even 238 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,519 compete for a scoring title before James Harden decided to run away with that title. 239 00:16:51,159 --> 00:16:56,159 But those numbers haven't really led him any wins during the three seasons that 240 00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,679 he's been in Chicago twenty seventeen eighteen. They won twenty seven games. Eighteen 241 00:17:00,759 --> 00:17:03,960 nineteen, they won twenty two. They have only won twenty two before the 242 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:10,240 season was suspended the current one we're in. So how do you balance those 243 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:15,200 big offensive numbers that to some extent at least are stemming from opportunity that he 244 00:17:15,799 --> 00:17:22,000 likely would not be getting on a more competitive roster. I do agree with 245 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,960 you to some extent. And the reason he doesn't, for me, doesn't 246 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:29,119 get above Boozer and maybe into the Gasol Gibson conversation, is because he hasn't 247 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,799 been in the playoffs and there really isn't evidence that the way he plays elevates 248 00:17:32,799 --> 00:17:36,839 his teammates. And I think to expect him to be that guy probably miscast 249 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,440 him. But when you look at the players that have routinely been around Chicago, 250 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,039 yes, Kobe White's good. Yes, Chris Dunn, before he was 251 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:48,480 injured this year, was playing well, but they just haven't put a floor 252 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:52,480 general next to him, even with Thomas Sadaranski he's I really liked Thomas Satoranski, 253 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:53,799 but you don't have that floor general type, and it seems like he 254 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,519 needs that type of guy around him. And yet you look at the numbers 255 00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:02,640 the Bulls offense is not good with him on the floor, and I do 256 00:18:02,799 --> 00:18:07,079 think that that matters. This isn't a Tray Young situation where where Chicago would 257 00:18:07,079 --> 00:18:10,559 be competent, but then they'll fall off a cliff without Lavine on the floor. 258 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,720 They are worse without Lavigne on the court, but they're just also not 259 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:17,960 great. And so that's when he is playing, and so there's the evidence 260 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,960 that maybe he's not really going to uplift an entire offense with the way that 261 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,319 he plays. What I will say, though, is when you look at 262 00:18:23,319 --> 00:18:27,880 his efficiency relative to the shots that he's taking, it's absolutely absurd. The 263 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:33,200 fact that he's shooting thirty eight percent from three this year on the types of 264 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:36,599 attempts that he takes. He's over thirty six point four percent on pull up 265 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,480 triples. He's taking a lot of shots off the dribble. I know a 266 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,319 lot of people were worried about him coming back from that ACL injury, and 267 00:18:44,319 --> 00:18:48,359 you know, maybe we'll never see Lavigne get to the line at a high 268 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,119 clip. That might always just be a part of his game that we sort 269 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,720 of lament. He's not De'angelo Russell naked when it comes to a free throw 270 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:57,200 attempt. Ray, But he's not someone that you look at and say, 271 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,160 oh, like you can really trust him to get to get there consistently. 272 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,359 He still does get to the rim more than he was before the injury, 273 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:07,880 looking just at the frequency with which he takes his attempts from point blank range. 274 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,079 And so to have that guy, I really do think that there's value 275 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,880 there. It just takes a very specific number one, someone that he can 276 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,680 is forced to defer too, I should say, and then that makes both 277 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,680 his job easier and makes him better. And so I do still think there's 278 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,920 a really good NBA player there, potential All Star. But like you, 279 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:32,920 the lack of results in Chicago that really has to hold him back. Again, 280 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,319 it's not even just a matter of not making the playoffs, because you 281 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:37,759 can look at these bulls teams and you don't have to put their lottery births 282 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,960 on him. The fact that the offense, I think since he's been here, 283 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,440 is not ranked higher than the thirty fifth percentile when he's on the floor, 284 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,440 that is telltale of something. And the team's net rating has declined when 285 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:52,880 he's on the court, and two of his three seasons, and overall over 286 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,839 the course of those three they've been one point seven points per hundred possessions worse 287 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,519 when he's on the court. And that's not to say that he makes the 288 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:03,559 team. You know, that's one of those situations where maybe he's not elevating, 289 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:07,319 but if you replace him with a lesser player in his in that same 290 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,119 role getting those same minutes, obviously the team's gonna be worse off It's interesting 291 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,400 because I was I was going to make the Trey Young comparison as well for 292 00:20:15,519 --> 00:20:19,519 the exact same reason, just looking at how how Young has put up numbers 293 00:20:19,599 --> 00:20:25,759 that have elevated Atlanta's offense, and we haven't necessarily seen the same effect in 294 00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:29,599 Chicago with Lavigne. The one thing I really want to see more from him. 295 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,319 He's done a fantastic job throughout his career at improving his shot profile, 296 00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:37,960 especially the long twos. They've The frequency with which he's taken long twos has 297 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,640 declined every single season of his career. He doesn't take floaters, though, 298 00:20:42,079 --> 00:20:47,880 and when he does they're not good. Throughout his three years in Chicago, 299 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,759 he's made twenty three point two percent of his shots from between three and ten 300 00:20:49,799 --> 00:20:55,480 feet, and that's the range where we so often see these explosive athletic guards. 301 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,640 When that starts to click, everything starts to be better, because if 302 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,319 you're pulling a rim protector out where they have to respect that shot instead of 303 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:07,920 just meeting you at the rim, you're making life a lot easier on yourself. 304 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:11,799 And that's that's the spot where I really want to see him improve, 305 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,720 and I think he can just based on the touch he displays from the free 306 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,160 throw line on three pointers, and as you mentioned, some of his shots 307 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,319 are so difficult and he still makes them, So I have hope there. 308 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:26,680 But that's the area where like, if that, if that clicks, he's 309 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,880 going to skyrocket up these rankings. And then maybe there you do wonder a 310 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,799 little bit what happens if he does have less control over the offense, does 311 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:36,519 he because there are a lot of players who feel like rhythm or volume is 312 00:21:36,519 --> 00:21:40,799 important. So if he can't dribble the ball eighty times before he's shooting as 313 00:21:40,839 --> 00:21:44,160 freely, could that have an adverse impact on his numbers. But he is 314 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,240 one of the players where look, we've seen them, We've seen a team 315 00:21:47,279 --> 00:21:49,039 try to build around him. Now I'd be very curious to see what he 316 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:56,359 looks like beside a more legitimate Number one. I am wholeheartedly with you. 317 00:21:56,079 --> 00:22:00,680 Who's next up for us? Number six? Next up in six we have 318 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,079 Pau Gasol, who was eighth for the Fans and was sixth for both of 319 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,319 us. He was an All Star during both of his seasons in Chicago, 320 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:14,680 and I think it's yet another example of my theory that he's one of the 321 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,119 most underrated players in NBA history. I don't think he gets enough credit for 322 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,160 the star he was with the Memphis Grizzlies. I don't think he gets enough 323 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,000 credit for the role that he played alongside Kobe Bryant on the title winning Los 324 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:30,079 Angeles Lakers teams. And I certainly don't think that he gets enough credit for 325 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,759 what he did in Chicago. He continued to be just an offensive stalwart who 326 00:22:34,839 --> 00:22:41,079 could contribute as a secondary facilitating hub, as a primary scorer, as a 327 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:47,000 guy who was becoming more of a stretch big. But just because those teams 328 00:22:47,039 --> 00:22:52,079 weren't as competitive as the ones that we'd seen just a few years earlier with 329 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,079 peak pre injury Derek Rose, and because he clearly wasn't operating quite at the 330 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,119 same level that he did when he was in Los Angeles, right before Chicago. 331 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,480 I don't think he receives nearly enough credit. When you had first set 332 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:10,319 me your rankings for the Bulls, I was floored that you had pow Gasol 333 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,160 so high, and then we ended up putting him in the same spot because 334 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:18,920 I forgot just how incredible his numbers were during those two seasons with Chicago. 335 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,480 You talk about, you know, he all of a sudden really ups his 336 00:23:21,599 --> 00:23:26,680 three point volume, taking him at least a similar never had taken threes with 337 00:23:26,799 --> 00:23:29,119 that sort of volume, and he continued kind of doing it when he went 338 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,839 to San Antonio, and to see him in that second year, he's averaging 339 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,599 an attemph per game, which is a career high at that point, and 340 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:41,119 shooting almost thirty five percent from beyond the art. That added real value just 341 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,519 at that time in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, but his just overall numbers, 342 00:23:45,559 --> 00:23:48,240 when you look at his passing four point one assists per game in that final 343 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:55,119 year with Chicago, there's weird obscured value and rebounding but consistently getting double double 344 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,000 tallies there for Chicago. I really do wonder too, what would have happen 345 00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:03,640 had he had been healthy for the I think it was the twenty fifteen playoff 346 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,759 run or the twenty sixteen playoff run that he wasn't there for that. Maybe 347 00:24:07,799 --> 00:24:11,720 that Bulls team is just a lot better if he's available for that. So 348 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:17,559 I after looking at the numbers and sort of reminding myself, it seems like 349 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:22,079 those two years were forever ago, because everything feels like it's forever ago at 350 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:26,720 this point, I ended up just being in full agreement with you, because 351 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,839 those two years in Chicago were spectacular and he was contributing two good teams as 352 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,599 well, which I really think needs to factor in right. And I think 353 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:37,880 it also matters that he was in his age thirty four and thirty five seasons 354 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:45,160 during those two years in Chicago. We've seen in the last half decade that 355 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,640 he was a decent lower minute contributor for the Spurs, and then he just 356 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:52,640 kind of fell off the radar with the Bucks. I believe he was dealing 357 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,079 with some foot injuries throughout his brief time in Milwaukee too, but like that's 358 00:24:57,279 --> 00:25:02,559 a normal career arc for a guy who's in his late thirties, and I 359 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:07,480 think it's just another reason that that perception of him has has kind of fallen 360 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:10,920 off. But I mean his rookie season from in two thousand and one, 361 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,680 two thousand and two all the way through twenty seventeen eighteen, the average double 362 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,119 digit scoring totals every year, And that's that's something that not a lot of 363 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,960 players can say. Over the course of seventeen straight seasons. Who do we 364 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:29,119 have coming in at number five. So we're gonna move on from my talking 365 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,119 about how paw Kasol is historically underrated to talk about Taj Gibson at number five. 366 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,839 He was number six for the fans, He was number four for me, 367 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,680 and he was number five for you. One of the one of the 368 00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:44,559 few spots where there was an agreement between at least two parties. But yeah, 369 00:25:44,599 --> 00:25:48,480 I mean Gibson, it like kind of exemplifies the baroness concept for this 370 00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:52,759 franchise. Second in minutes played only to Jimmy Butler over the last decade, 371 00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:59,160 First in games played by eighty one games, almost an entire season more than 372 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,400 anyone else. Never really became a floor spacing power forward, even though we 373 00:26:03,799 --> 00:26:07,920 originally thought that he could based on some of the midrange results. But just 374 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,440 a gritty, tough defensive player who who set the tone for a lot of 375 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,079 these hard nosed Tom Thibodeau defenses, and who also just basically for his entire 376 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:21,279 Bulls tenure, wasn't allowed to start until until the very end, and I 377 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:25,240 get there. Do you remember those debates whether Taj Gibbs he eventually started playing 378 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,960 more than Carlos Boozer, but they were the debates that should he be starting 379 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,839 over Carlos Boozer? And so he started. I believe he started most of 380 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:34,000 his games as a rookie when he was in Chicago, he did seventy starts, 381 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:38,400 and then his final season in Chicago, which was a partial season in 382 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,039 Chicago, he started all fifty five games that he played in. But I 383 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:47,519 really could only echo what you said. Just a solid guy. There was 384 00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:49,200 that baby pick and pop jumper. You know, we wish you could he 385 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,519 could have extended his range, but he was at least knocking those shots downs 386 00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:57,279 and many of those seasons at an above average clip. Just another one of 387 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:00,920 their gritty defenders that contribute to those teams where on paper it looks like they're 388 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:07,839 shorthanded, but oh they're churning out comfortably above five hundred records and their problems 389 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,920 in the playoffs. He was a big part of all that. I do 390 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,839 sort of wonder what he looks like if maybe he plays more center with the 391 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,519 Bulls. I know it wasn't necessarily an option for a lot of the time 392 00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:22,039 that he was there, but I feel like his game, particularly on offense, 393 00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:26,680 would have been much better suited for the five position, and maybe we 394 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,480 appreciate him a little bit more, not only if he gets more playing time 395 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,839 consistently enough in Chicago, but if that's a role that he would have played 396 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,160 more often as well. Yeah, I feel like he basically did on defense 397 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,079 just because of the pack the paint philosophies, you know, like the entire 398 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,680 Thibodeau principle was that we're going to spend as much time in the paint as 399 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,880 possible and kind of dare the officials to call us on land violations. On 400 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,240 the defensive end, so he did spend a lot of time protecting the rim 401 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:56,519 and guarding bigger players on the interior. So I think we got to see 402 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:00,359 that fully realized defensive version of him. But I do agree with you on 403 00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:03,279 offense, where it would have been nice to see him working on drawing bigger 404 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:10,000 bodies out towards the perimeter. And it might have facilitated further growth in that 405 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,960 in that offensive arsenal. Who do we have coming in at number five? 406 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:21,279 So Gibson was number five, but at number four, at number four we 407 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,119 have lu All Dang, who was number four for both you and the fans 408 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,920 and was number five for me. Do you talk about underappreciated? I feel 409 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,279 like most people now only remember the Luel Dang that was in sort of, 410 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,119 you know, a talent of Chicago. Then he goes to the Heat, 411 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,519 then he's with then he's with the Lakers. He was really really good. 412 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,519 There's the season and well that doesn't really doesn't fall into this purview. But 413 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:51,759 you're looking at the first season Derek goes MVP season, he averages seventeen point 414 00:28:51,799 --> 00:28:56,079 four points, two point eight assists per game. His three point shot always 415 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,079 kind of came and went. There were seasons where he hit it at a 416 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:02,759 higher clip the years in which he took it with actual volume, though it 417 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,519 really dipped. He only had twenty eleven twenty twelve four attempts per game with 418 00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:10,960 thirty six percent thirty six point seven percent shooting from beyond the arc. One 419 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:17,279 of the best defense perimeter defenders, though of his specific era, when when 420 00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:21,079 he was healthy and in his prime, and the minutes that he would play. 421 00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:23,480 Two seasons with the Bulls, he leads the league in minutes per game 422 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:29,240 average thirty nine point four minutes per game in the lockout season, which is 423 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,000 a little bit wild, and then the following year leads the league of minutes 424 00:29:32,039 --> 00:29:36,799 per game again twenty twelve, twenty thirteen with thirty eight point seven. Just 425 00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,279 always so reliable in that respect. I do wonder though, and I'm not 426 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:44,599 trying to throw this at Tom Thibeau, but how many careers has maybe that 427 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,480 type of mindset that Chicago had during that time, some of which was born 428 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,160 from necessity because you look at what was going on with Derrik Rose. Even 429 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,759 jokeim Noah missed a lot of time, but does does Luell? Dang if 430 00:29:55,759 --> 00:29:59,720 he's not playing through what seemed like a couple of knee injuries. I believe 431 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,720 that span is his career lengthier? Is he at least relevant for longer? 432 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,519 And I think that's a fair question to ask. But during his time in 433 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:11,119 Chicago, he was he was really good. I would say consistently he played 434 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,920 at a fringe all star level, and that's super valuable to have when you 435 00:30:17,279 --> 00:30:19,119 weren't necessarily Yeah, there were times where he needed to be the number one 436 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:23,119 of the number two, but that's not actually why you had him. Man, 437 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,839 you stole my talking point. I was I was gonna do some tips 438 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,000 bashing here, because I do think that the Dang is probably the most egregious 439 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:34,960 example of all the careers that I don't want to say ruined, but we're 440 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,359 shortened by the inability to rely on the bench and the strange willingness to leave 441 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,079 guys on the court forever. You know, Dang was pretty much washed by 442 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,799 the time he was thirty, which is which is sad and not what you 443 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,960 would expect from a guy who was able to contribute in so many different areas. 444 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400 You covered everything really well, But the only thing I wanted to add 445 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,319 was it all felt to me like he was really reliable from the corners, 446 00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:07,440 even if even if the overall percentages weren't there. It seemed like so many 447 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,079 times he was a bailout option in one of the corners, and that was 448 00:31:11,119 --> 00:31:15,119 a shot that you could really rely on, and that I associate pretty strongly 449 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,160 with this last decade of Bulls basketball. I'm just curious if you agree there, 450 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,400 I would agree. I also I want to say, if you can 451 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,720 answer this question, how many all defense teams did you make? I don't 452 00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:27,119 think he ever made one. He made one, and I actually won. 453 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,359 I actually thought that was low. I could have sworn that he made two. 454 00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:33,160 Yeah, it's tough, just because there are so many good wing defenders, 455 00:31:33,359 --> 00:31:37,559 and I think that some of the guys like him, who do the 456 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:41,920 dirty work and who are always taking those toughest assignments on the perimeter, don't 457 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,599 always get the credit they deserve because he never really racked up steals or blocks 458 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,359 like you see from a Kawhi Leonard or a Jimmy Butler, and that probably 459 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,160 held him back there. I'd agree. Who do we have at number three? 460 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:59,039 This is where things get The top three were hard. The top three 461 00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:04,200 were really tough. Everyone had the same three people in their top three. 462 00:32:05,599 --> 00:32:10,240 They were barely separated in our composite rankings. But at number three we do 463 00:32:10,359 --> 00:32:15,680 have Derrick Rose, who was number one from the fans, which really doesn't 464 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,720 surprise me. He was number three for both of us, and he did 465 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,519 draw over half of the first place votes from fans as well. He did 466 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:29,480 not appear on one ballot, which is which is interesting. He was ninth 467 00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:31,640 place on one, but other than that, he was in the top four 468 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:37,519 for everyone. You know it, Rose didn't really play as much as as 469 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:43,359 as we wanted him to, as we maybe remember him playing because of all 470 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,359 the injuries. But you know, only two hundred forty seven games. That's 471 00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:50,440 fifth place over the last decade for the balls, he's six ten minutes played. 472 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,200 But then that peak, you know, the the MVP season does count 473 00:32:55,279 --> 00:33:02,119 here. The ensuing season before the on slot of injuries began does count here. 474 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,680 And it's tough to balance the lack of volume you might expect with a 475 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:14,519 superstar so associated with a franchise with that remarkable peak where you know, just 476 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,799 one athletic layup or dunk after another, the pure explosion driving the basket, 477 00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:24,480 unlike what we've seen from almost every guard throughout NBA history. Yeah, and 478 00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:29,079 look, it's not We're not trying to shoot on him by putting him at 479 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:34,440 number three either, and there are I am not. The season of Derrick 480 00:33:34,519 --> 00:33:37,440 Roses that I'm most impressed with was this past year in Detroit, where he 481 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:40,279 was just legitimately good and it came out a time where everyone was out on 482 00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:44,039 him. Is MVP campaign was spectacular. I want to make that clear. 483 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,680 I still would have given the award that year to Lebron James. What I 484 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,720 think really hurts his case. What I think really hurts his case is that 485 00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:55,160 so the years that qualify for this decade in Chicago end up being six seasons. 486 00:33:55,799 --> 00:34:01,319 How many times was he the best play on the team during that span 487 00:34:01,599 --> 00:34:05,640 and a lot of the when you're going to say no in a few years, 488 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,360 it's because he wasn't available, But that needs to be part of it, 489 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,320 and so you already touched upon it. And he's actually because of when 490 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,320 you look at a lot of the turnover of the the Bulls is supporting cast, 491 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,440 he's actually fairly high, and minutes played for the decade, he's sixth, 492 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,760 which is that's solid, and that's enough too if you're going to vote 493 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,719 him on. I don't think it's something that I would actually quibble over. 494 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,679 But the lack of availability following really his MVP campaign, or let's just following 495 00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:36,039 the ACL injury and twenty twelve, but even then he had missed that was 496 00:34:36,079 --> 00:34:37,960 a lockout shortened year, and I think he had missed twenty seven games during 497 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,559 the regular season, and so that lack of availability specifically, you know, 498 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,440 didn't play played about half the year let's say a little bit more than half 499 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,159 the year in twenty eleven, twenty twelve, Miss all of twenty twelve twenty 500 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,639 thirteen only appears in ten games, and in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, that 501 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,760 stretch really ends up hurting his let's call it the theiriness factor for Chicago. 502 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,880 And then he just wasn't the same player when he came back and he put 503 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:06,000 up he put up numbers for you know, his first season where he played 504 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,519 in fifty plus game twenty fifteen. He averages over seventeen points a game that 505 00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:14,440 season, but you see that his efficiency really starts to take a dip. 506 00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:17,960 And I do know, and people have criticized him for his failure to adjust 507 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:23,639 on the court, I actually understand his struggles there in that moment, just 508 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,960 because of how young he still was in the trajectory that he was on. 509 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,920 That wasn't something that he was supposed to have to do. We see stars 510 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:37,239 as they get older struggle to really assume role player duties. There are ones 511 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,280 that have made the transition more seamlessly than most. You know, Vince Carter 512 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,519 is probably a good example, but it even took him a while to get 513 00:35:45,519 --> 00:35:47,719 there, and he battled his own health problems, and so this isn't me 514 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:52,360 and I'm assuming you as well by putting him at number three behind the two 515 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,559 players were about to talk about. It's really not trying to take a shot 516 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:59,239 at Derek Rose. I just think his lack of a bell of availability and 517 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,679 his struggles post ACL, they're enough to make it so that he is by 518 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,400 nowhere, that he is nowhere near a consensus number one or even number two 519 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,360 player for this franchise over the course of this decade. Yeah, I'm in 520 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,880 total agreement with you, And that was part of the reason I really struggled 521 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,480 with the order of these three players, because I think there's a valid argument 522 00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:22,760 for any of them in the number one spot. But yeah, I think 523 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:28,760 those post ACL injury seasons were more detrimental than anything else, just because of 524 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:34,400 the volume shooting coupled with diminishing efficiency, coupled with a decline and playmaking ability 525 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,199 because so much of his passing stemmed from those drives into the lane and then 526 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:42,000 the kickouts, and when he's not gaining as much separation and creating as much 527 00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:45,480 space on those drives. The passing declined too. It was just it was 528 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:49,320 an all around it was an all around dip, and it was a little 529 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,000 bit too much for me to overlook. And then I think we also wanted 530 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:59,599 to say on the Rose topic, and I apologize if I'm not phrasing any 531 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:05,079 of this as well as I could. We did. We did waffle with 532 00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:10,800 how we wanted to handle the rape accusations that stemmed from his time in Chicago 533 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,599 recovering from an ACL injury. I don't really want to dive into the details 534 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:20,599 of the case, but we ultimately didn't let that affect how we placed him 535 00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:25,039 in these rankings because those those were not made public and did not become a 536 00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:30,559 big storyline until his Chicago tenure was over, So it really did not affect 537 00:37:30,679 --> 00:37:36,960 the on court element, which is all we were concerned with for these rankings. 538 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:40,360 So if you wanted to drop him in your personal rankings because of the 539 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:46,320 moral transgressions and because of what that does to perception of him as a person 540 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:51,000 and a player in Chicago, that is totally valid, and we will in 541 00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:54,360 no way diminish those feelings. But we just wanted to explain that that we 542 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,800 did think about it, and that's ultimately how we chose to handle a sensitive 543 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:04,719 time topic. Well said, and I echo everything that you just dropped. 544 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,920 It was the focus, try to stay on basketball. But I won't fault 545 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,599 anybody for holding him down in their rankings beat because of it. It's going 546 00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:14,280 to be a part of his legacy, and it can be a part of 547 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,079 his Chicago legacy as well. But we were trying to look strictly at off 548 00:38:17,079 --> 00:38:20,639 the court rankings here, and so if anyone thinks that we put him too 549 00:38:20,679 --> 00:38:24,320 low at three, that part of his legacy actually did not factor into us 550 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,320 putting him at number three. And it's an interesting segue at number two, 551 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,239 which is is Jimmy Butler. He was unanimously two for me, for Dan, 552 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,199 and for the fans, and he was an example of where off court 553 00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:45,000 decisions and behavior actually did impact the on court product. And it's just because 554 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:51,760 of the ugliness of his exit from Chicago to Minnesota in twenty seventeen. You 555 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,400 know, maybe if he had handled that a bit differently, the trade return 556 00:38:54,559 --> 00:38:58,280 might have been a little bit different. They ended up trading him and Justin 557 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,920 Patton to the Timberwolves, for Chris Dunn, Zach Lavine and Markenen, which 558 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,000 has worked out well, but could they have gotten more? Has it worked 559 00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:08,679 out well? Let's yeah, I mean it, yeah, I think that's 560 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:14,000 fair, but like at least you did get to two consistent contributors out of 561 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,960 it. But for me, that was an example of how like yeah, 562 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:23,800 like obviously that's nowhere near as as serious at an occurrence, but because it 563 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:30,760 did have a direct tangible impact on the Chicago Bulls franchise that dropped that that 564 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,000 made it harder for me to put him in the number one spot, which 565 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,599 I originally did want to do because he was just so damn good during the 566 00:39:37,679 --> 00:39:43,800 end of his Chicago tenure, like those those last three seasons in Chicago where 567 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,079 he was a twenty point scorer where it seemed like he was coming up big 568 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:50,559 and crucial moments every time, where he was developing it to more of a 569 00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:54,119 playmaker for his teammates, are reliable shot maker who could create more for himself, 570 00:39:54,199 --> 00:39:59,480 Like I think that was, aside from Rose's MVP season, the best 571 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,199 basketball we've seen played by any member of the Bulls in the last decade. 572 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,559 You almost sort of forget that your prime Jimmy wasn't really in like the best 573 00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:12,840 of Jimmy Butler wasn't in Chicago for as long as you remember that he was, 574 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,760 because his minutes were just curbed. His first two seasons he barely played 575 00:40:16,119 --> 00:40:19,320 as a rookie, and then even that third year when he was playing a 576 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,559 ton of minutes, they didn't really give him the keys to the offense. 577 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:27,519 Like that's a I think that was something that they, like, he showed 578 00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:30,039 out in the playoffs that year, I think it was in the twenty twelve 579 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:35,119 twenty thirteen playoffs is kind of would put him it seems on like Thibodeau's map, 580 00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:39,079 but they didn't really start giving him like real control over the offense in 581 00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:42,519 the following season, Like it took a while for him to get there. 582 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:45,920 And so, you know, you mentioned those final three seasons in Chicago where 583 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,840 he's clearing twenty points per game and turns into kind of this secondary playmaker that 584 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,079 wasn't really like those were the three seasons. Like when you're ranking Jimmy Butler's 585 00:40:53,119 --> 00:40:58,519 time with the Bulls, maybe you do look at that twenty thirteen postseason. 586 00:40:58,559 --> 00:41:00,519 Maybe you do look at the fact that, yeah, you know, in 587 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,239 twenty six minutes a game. He plays in all eighty two games in twenty 588 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,159 twenty thirteen during the regular season, really establishes himself as this hard nosed defender 589 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,559 like that that certainly matters, and it's part of it, But it's those 590 00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:16,079 final three seasons twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, 591 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:20,880 twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen that really make his case. And I think it's 592 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,760 fair to say that maybe he's the like the best player the Bulls have had 593 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,199 on their team this decade. But I don't think he was at his best 594 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,639 or at his most ideal for long enough in Chicago to supersede the guy that 595 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,079 we ultimately placed in front of him. And I think part of that is 596 00:41:36,119 --> 00:41:39,960 just the story of how he became a star. You know, just at 597 00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:46,719 Marquette, he never became anything indicative of a future NBA superstar, which is 598 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,320 why he came off the board at thirtieth in the twenty eleven NBA Draft. 599 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,800 And you know, it took him a few years to carve out that role. 600 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,880 He he only played eight point five minutes per game as a rookie. 601 00:41:58,039 --> 00:42:04,239 It wasn't until his junior season where he really earned a bigger role because of 602 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,000 his defensive abilities, but he couldn't shoot that year. You know, he 603 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:09,519 slashed thirty nine seven, twenty eight three, seventy six nine during that third 604 00:42:09,559 --> 00:42:14,800 season, and then everything clicked in the fourth year, and that was the 605 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,360 beginning of that three year span that that really elevates him into this spot. 606 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,440 But I did want to ask you, do you think Jimmy Butler is going 607 00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,800 to be a Hall of Famer And if so, what jersey is going to 608 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:31,400 represent him? Wow? Basketball references Hall of Fame probability, which is based 609 00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:37,480 on you know, how players have fared in certain statistical categories that tend to 610 00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:40,880 correlate with entry into the Hall of Fame, gives him a forty two point 611 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,320 five percent chance right now. I would imagine that's only going to go up 612 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:50,360 because he's only thirty years old, He's currently playing at a very high level 613 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,280 despite some shooting struggles for the Miami Heat, and I think we have at 614 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,360 least a few more peak seasons, So I would imagine he's going to finish 615 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:01,599 his career north of fifty percent. But has he made too many ugly exits 616 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:08,559 from places and ostracized too many people with his ridiculously sleep deprived work ethic. 617 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,679 Yeah, everyone needs to get up at three in the mornings that they can 618 00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:15,719 go work out with Jimmy Butler. That is not healthy, by the way, 619 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,400 just for anyone they will not recommend. I'm not a sleep expert because 620 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,679 I don't get enough of it, but I definitely know like getting up at 621 00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:24,000 three in the morning to work out after you probably didn't go to bed till 622 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,960 at least eleven or twelve is definitely not, definitely not healthy. My guests 623 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:30,960 would be he gets into the Hall of Fame, that would just be my 624 00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:35,960 gut guess. I would say, as of right now, he has to 625 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,519 go in with the bulls. That could change if he won ends up spending 626 00:43:38,559 --> 00:43:43,599 as much time in Miami. Let's say he makes it through all four years 627 00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:45,679 of this contract or you know, the first three opts out, signs another 628 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,840 four year deal and ends up playing I'll say a half decade or longer in 629 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,400 Miami and just the going there is smoother. Maybe he makes it to a 630 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,639 finals. If he wins a title in Miami, he'll certainly go in with 631 00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:00,280 the heat. Would be my guests there. As of right now, though, 632 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,559 I'll say he'll go into the Hall of Fame and then he's just going 633 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,199 to be most remembered for his time with the Bulls and because part of look, 634 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,840 part of his stardom is the route by which he got there, and 635 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,400 that's where that's where Chicago just comes in where it's, oh this Everyone might 636 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,239 have talked about his work ethic when he was first drafted by the Bulls, 637 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,840 but he went from playing you know, eight point five minutes per game through 638 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,320 forty two regular season games in the twenty twenty twelve regular season, barely playing 639 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:30,599 in the playoffs that year, then all of a sudden, he's just super 640 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:34,840 important to what they're doing on one side of the floor. And then jump 641 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,519 ahead two more years and he's also their best offensive player. Right But to 642 00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:43,400 be clear, you're you're ruling out the Minnesota Timberwolves as an option if we 643 00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:45,000 have a Zach Lowe has talked about this a lot, if we have like 644 00:44:45,039 --> 00:44:50,719 a Hall of Fame weirdness part of like, if there's a weirdness sector of 645 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:52,639 the Hall of Fame, we definitely need to play with Karl Anthony Towns for 646 00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:55,440 sure. Yeah, Jimmy Butler's tour to Force, where he preferred to play 647 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:00,079 with the third stringers and beat up on Minnesota's Minnesota starters. That has to 648 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:06,239 go in there. Yeah, I can't argue with that. Everyone should know 649 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:07,599 who number one is. But but can you say it for us, mister 650 00:45:07,639 --> 00:45:13,039 frommel I can It's a Jokeim Noah. He was third place for the fans. 651 00:45:13,079 --> 00:45:16,360 He was first place for both of us. I don't have any regrets 652 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:22,519 about that, just because I think the consistency with which he contributed throughout his 653 00:45:22,599 --> 00:45:25,000 time in Chicago. You know, we don't get to count the first three 654 00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,800 years of his career, but it really wasn't until the third one where he 655 00:45:30,159 --> 00:45:37,360 developed into just this this relentless defensive contributor who really sparked Chicago's ability to establish 656 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,760 its entire defensive identity. His ability to to shut down the interior and to 657 00:45:43,119 --> 00:45:47,559 show off some lateral quickness switching on to other players, and then his ability 658 00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:52,079 to facilitate as a big man was just massive. You know, he never 659 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:57,280 scored more than twelve point six points per game in Chicago, and yet it 660 00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,400 just didn't matter. You know, he didn't need to score to be a 661 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:04,920 hugely impactful player, which is why we saw him finished fourth place in the 662 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,920 MVP voting in twenty fourteen, which is probably looking back on it, maybe 663 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:12,159 a little bit of an overreaction to the season that he had for a really 664 00:46:12,159 --> 00:46:16,599 good team, but still like he absolutely deserved consideration on the ballot despite not 665 00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:20,840 even averaging thirteen points per game. And that's that's something we can't say a 666 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,039 lot about a lot of players, but it is something you can say about 667 00:46:23,119 --> 00:46:28,480 a d poy who is also one of the best passing bigs with one of 668 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,320 the weirdest shooting forms we've seen. Yeah, he basically releases it at the 669 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:37,239 hips. It's a sidewinding push shot. Yeah, so awkward when he was 670 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,000 not even just airball free throws. But when you watch his live jump shots, 671 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,599 like game action jump shots, those are the ones that those hit a 672 00:46:44,639 --> 00:46:49,320 little different or really they don't hit at all. But anyway, it is 673 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,840 number four really severely overrating the season he had that year. Maybe Jane Carden 674 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:58,880 that season, Yeah it could have a little bit. Yeah, I mean 675 00:46:59,079 --> 00:47:01,639 Harden. I think you can make an argument for Steph that year as well. 676 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,280 I think Chris Paul is always undervalued. I just when you look at 677 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:13,079 his impact on both sides of the floor for Chicago, with the exception of 678 00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:16,519 Lebron James that season. When you look at everyone who's in the top but 679 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,239 I guess, aside from Chris Paul in the top seven of MVP voting, 680 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,760 I'm not sure anyone else aside from Chris Chris Paul, Lebron James had more 681 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,480 of a two way impact on their team. If you want to throw Kevin 682 00:47:27,559 --> 00:47:30,480 Durant in there, that's fine. I kind of want to throw Kevin Love 683 00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:34,280 in there too. I know that the Timberwolves were awful, yeah, But 684 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,360 I mean, I'm always against the argument about like all around value there because 685 00:47:39,519 --> 00:47:43,400 if you're that good on offense, even if you're bad on defense, it's 686 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,119 still outweighs being decent on both ends, which no, it wasn't decent on 687 00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:49,599 both ends. He was good on both ends. But like that was the 688 00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:54,239 season Love averaged twenty six thirteen and four, you know. And I think 689 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:59,079 that there's an argument there too, just because I don't personally believe that team's 690 00:47:59,079 --> 00:48:02,800 success should factor into MVP voting as much as it does. But that's admittedly 691 00:48:04,159 --> 00:48:07,119 a personal bias here. I think that that Noah had a case for four, 692 00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,239 I'm just not sure that he would have been there for me. But 693 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:13,599 regardless, like he belonged in the discussion. Yeah, I mean, look, 694 00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:15,440 he anchored the second best. He doesn't leave it year, and I 695 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,880 guess the case against it would be he meant. I think what really sells 696 00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,960 me on the two argument for him is because of how important he actually was 697 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,880 to the offense, Like it wasn't just someone who was setting screens and rim 698 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,119 running, like they relied on him for his facilitating. The counterpoint to this 699 00:48:30,119 --> 00:48:32,480 would be that the Bulls had the third worst offense in the league that year 700 00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:36,320 when they were still relying on him, the same season that Derrick Rose played 701 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,480 in only ten games. And so I definitely you could go back and relitigate 702 00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:43,880 the MVP the MVP voting, for sure, But twenty thirteen twenty fourteen was 703 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,000 peak Joe Kim No. One is the season I'll just always remember from him. 704 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:52,480 He absolutely deserved the Defensive Player of the Year award, and he's another 705 00:48:52,559 --> 00:48:53,840 one of the players. And maybe we'll look back and say this about Jimmy 706 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,920 Butler a little bit. We already said it about Dang But if he didn't 707 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,159 play for TIBs for so long. I just wonder if he's you know, 708 00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:06,719 more relevant in the NBA for a longer stretch of time after leaving the Bulls. 709 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:08,559 Shout out to the Knicks though, for for signing him in twenty sixteen 710 00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:14,440 while bidding against absolutely nobody. So this, this isn't a dream. And 711 00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:17,920 it really happened right that he signed with the Clippers and was preparing for some 712 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:22,800 sort of comeback before the season was suspended. Yeah, no, it wasn't 713 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,239 a dream. And also, he was really good when he played for Memphis 714 00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,119 last year. If it was a little bit more than half a season, 715 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,400 small burst, but you know what, that's fine, and he you know 716 00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:36,320 what he does. He'd be harder for teams to play now than he was, 717 00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:37,960 you know, four or five years ago, just because I don't know 718 00:49:38,159 --> 00:49:40,960 how is he gonna move on defense now? Prim joke, Kim Noah could 719 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,639 really chase guys around. But now you factor in a slowed down version of 720 00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:47,599 Noah with the lack of floor spacing on offense, you probably can only get 721 00:49:47,639 --> 00:49:52,559 away with him for maximum twelve to sixteen minutes a game. But that's that's 722 00:49:52,599 --> 00:49:54,360 also fine. I would have welcomed seeing him play again, because he actually 723 00:49:54,400 --> 00:50:00,440 was pretty good in Memphis last year. So, if you're if you're arting 724 00:50:00,599 --> 00:50:07,320 a team from scratch, how would you rank Noah's twenty thirteen fourteen season, 725 00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,280 Jimmy Butler's twenty sixteen seventeen season, his final one in Chicago, and Derreck 726 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:16,960 Rose's MVP season in twenty ten eleven. I'm thinking Jimmy's final season in Chicago. 727 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,320 Really there's just something. Look, I'm going to appreciate the efficient three 728 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:27,480 point shooting from him that year on let's call it modest volume, three point 729 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:32,800 three attempts per game and above the league average. And then when you're looking 730 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,320 at what Noah could do best, it wings who can face up and even 731 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,079 and guards as well. They're just gonna have an inherently more influence over the 732 00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,760 outcome on offense. And then so if you want to say Derrick Rose his 733 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,639 MVP campaign was better offensively than Jimmy Butler during his planning year in Chicago, 734 00:50:50,679 --> 00:50:52,320 I would probably agree with you. But now we have to factor in what 735 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:57,599 Jimmy Butler does as an individual defender at the other side of the floor, 736 00:50:57,639 --> 00:51:00,519 and then I think that's what really me there. If Derrick Rose was a 737 00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:05,920 better three point shooter that season, or really at any point during his career 738 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,119 in Chicago, maybe you can tilt the scales toward him for me personally. 739 00:51:09,199 --> 00:51:14,039 Get you're free to pick whoever you want, but the answer is pretty clearly 740 00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:17,679 Butler for me. So I think Rose had the best of the three seasons, 741 00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:21,920 but it's also the one that I would least like to build around, 742 00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:24,719 just because I think you can find the poor man's version of that most easily. 743 00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:30,119 And that's kind of why I would pick Noah's over Butler's, just because 744 00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:32,400 of scarcity. Yeah, I don't think. I think it's easier to find 745 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:38,360 some sort of replacement for Butler on the wings. I think it's much harder 746 00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:44,159 to find that true defensive player of the Year candidate who's also capable of serving 747 00:51:44,159 --> 00:51:45,559 as an offensive hub. So, if I'm starting from scratch, like, 748 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:52,480 I think that's the most valuable addition of my team that makes it easier moving 749 00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:58,079 forward and placing players around him. Fair Enough, people are gonna take this 750 00:51:58,159 --> 00:52:01,559 as a Derrick Rose podcast, but it's really not. No I mean, 751 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:06,400 like again, like, I think he had the best season of any bull 752 00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:10,159 over this decade. Who who are our honorable mentions that we can run through. 753 00:52:12,559 --> 00:52:16,679 Right, So we had in the end vote moving beyond the tiber Titch 754 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,920 at number eleven again he was number nine for both of us, and then 755 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:22,280 we ventured into uncharted territory. Here we have we have Nate Robinson at twelve. 756 00:52:22,679 --> 00:52:27,519 We have Dwayne Wade at thirteen, which I guess some hometown bias there. 757 00:52:27,559 --> 00:52:30,639 Maybe I couldn't figure out why he got so much love considering how little 758 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,760 little time he's spent in a Bull's uniform and how we kind of try to 759 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,679 forget that that happened. Yeah, that thirteen is way too high for Dwayne 760 00:52:38,679 --> 00:52:42,760 Wade. That doesn't even we don't even need to go deep into that. 761 00:52:44,119 --> 00:52:50,519 So tied at fourteen, we have Kyle Korver and Ben Gordon I tied at 762 00:52:50,639 --> 00:52:53,039 sixteen, we have Ronnie Brobin Lopez. Tied. At eighteen, we have 763 00:52:53,119 --> 00:52:57,639 Mike Dunlevy, who I have strongly considered putting in my top ten, and 764 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:04,559 Keith Bogans, who I did not consider putting in my top ten. At 765 00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:08,960 twenty we have a tie between Bobby Portous and Rajon Rondo. At twenty two, 766 00:53:09,039 --> 00:53:13,719 we have a tie between Doug McDermott and Wendell Carter Junior. Maybe a 767 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:20,039 little too early for Wendell Carter Junior. Yeah, it's a maybe a little 768 00:53:20,079 --> 00:53:23,599 projection there. Tied at twenty four, we have a very interesting group of 769 00:53:23,639 --> 00:53:29,360 guards. We have Rip Hamilton, we have Campaign, we have Jamal Crawford, 770 00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,920 and we have Jimmer for Debt, who somehow got a sixth place vote. 771 00:53:35,159 --> 00:53:39,159 I thank Jimmers. I was gonna say shout out Andrew D. Bailey 772 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:45,639 for voting also a possibility. At twenty eight we have Jabari Parker. At 773 00:53:45,679 --> 00:53:50,360 twenty nine we have a tie between Justin Holiday, Kobe White, Thomas Satoransky 774 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:55,400 and Omar Ashik, who I was surprised that Ashik didn't get a little bit 775 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:00,400 more love just because of his defense over his time in Chicago, and then 776 00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:04,960 tied at thirty third we had CJ. Watson and Otto Porter Junior. And 777 00:54:05,079 --> 00:54:12,039 finally in a tie for thirty fifth, we had Andres Nocioni, Antonio Blakeney, 778 00:54:12,159 --> 00:54:16,239 Shaquille Harrison, DJ Augustine, and Chris Dunne. Names that I did 779 00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:21,440 not anticipate saying today. I will say I've heard stories that Shaquille Harrison defends 780 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,320 his ass off in practice. Maybe that's maybe maybe they were waiting that that's 781 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,960 fair, I hope. So, I'm not sure what the other argument is 782 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,480 aside from the name. Maybe you've got him confused for Shaquille O'Neill. Like 783 00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:35,519 I get that it happens. I'm disappointed Aaron Brooks didn't get any love. 784 00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:37,239 He was the other small guard that I was thinking of that would go kaboom 785 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:40,159 from time to time during yeah, that one season. Yeah, so, 786 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,960 actually this seemed like the of the teams we've done so far. This is 787 00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:50,760 number five. I feel like it had the least egregious honorable mentions. Dwayne 788 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,440 Wade at thirteen is pretty bad, but it's also Dwayne Wade and he's his 789 00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:59,239 own brand. Yeah. I didn't really have many qualms to the other ones. 790 00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:02,800 Maybe Keith Ogan's, but I think that that was a trolling ballot, 791 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:07,840 I want to say, because they had Carlos Boozer in first place, Ronnie 792 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,920 Brewer and second, and Keith Bogans and third. Yeah, shout out to 793 00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:17,559 whoever went that route. I would love to hear how you value certain things 794 00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:22,400 on the basketball court. It seems like a good discussion to have. But 795 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:27,800 yeah, I think that there were there were fewer egregious responses here. Well, 796 00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:31,280 Adam, this was fun as always. We have the Cleveland Cavaliers coming 797 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:37,280 up next, I believe we do. We will be recording those at some 798 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,519 time in the near future. If you guys are enjoining these podcasts, please 799 00:55:39,559 --> 00:55:44,360 remember to rate, reviews, subscribe to us on iTunes. Definitely remember to 800 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,800 participate in all the polls that Adam is throwing up. Follow NBA Math at 801 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,360 MBA Underscore Math. That's where all those surveys or are going up and we 802 00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:55,599 are also we will have a landing page for you by the time you listen 803 00:55:55,639 --> 00:56:00,000 to this on mbamath dot com with all the podcasts we have recorded for each 804 00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:04,119 team. You can also go on YouTube search Hardwood Knox you will find the 805 00:56:04,119 --> 00:56:06,760 playlist where we have all the decade rank kings. And then again, please 806 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,480 subscribe, rate and review to us on iTunes. We haven't had some written 807 00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:12,599 reviews and in quite a while. The ratings are going up a little bit, 808 00:56:12,599 --> 00:56:15,599 but we'd like to see both of those just inflate just a little bit 809 00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:17,639 more. So write us some reviews, grow us some ratings. Subscribe, 810 00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:22,159 Tell your friends, family, enemies, random people, on Twitter because hopefully 811 00:56:22,159 --> 00:56:24,880 you're not seeing them in person at the moment. Until next time, though, 812 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:37,360 we leave you with the shout out too. Keith Bogans, Sugar Ray 813 00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:43,039 Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends 814 00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:47,280 whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive 815 00:56:47,280 --> 00:56:52,960 their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four 816 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,320 parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime