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safe. What is poppin? Hardwin Knox listeners, I Am dand Valley coming
out you once again without Andrew D. Bailey. I am, however,
as usual, super pleased to be joined by Adam Prommel. He is the
founder and editor in chief of NBA math. We are continuing our player decade
rankings for each and every team. We're up to the Chicago Bulls. Before
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for now, let's get to talking some Chicago Bulls player rankings with Adam Frommel
Adam, how goes it? It's going pretty well. You know, you
and I were just talking before we started recording about how my almost sixteen month
old son is learning his Marvel superheroes so he can do the black panther will
Conda symbol. He loves saying yon do. So I feel like it's been
a good, successful morning for me so far. You know, he's gonna
end up being awesome because he's doing the black panther symbol already, so he's
already got That's my hope in the Marvel, that's my hope. It's like
it's one of the few things I've done right so far. I think,
just make sure he doesn't grow up to love Thor two, and then everything
in his life will fall into place after that. I mean, that's gonna
be tough because thor is definitely my wife's favorite, both because of the character
and Chris Timsworth. Look. I like Thor one and I love Thor three,
but Thor two was and I'm pretty like, I don't know what the
word would be. I feel like I'm basic when it comes to movies and
TV shows, and so you'll very rarely hear me say that I hate anything.
But Thor two was just not great. I'll still watch it, but
it just it wasn't great. It's it's very bad. I'm totally with you
there. Thor three was excellent. I don't I don't really like the first
one either, though, you know, just it was fun in the moment,
but watching it back, I just there's not much to it. It
just it feels kind of boring. The third one made you kind of wonder
why they didn't inject that sort of personality into the first two movies, and
so maybe it ruined the first one a little bit, right. I think
like Taikitt was the first director who like really realized the comedic chops that Chris
Hemsworth has and unleashed it. We could talk about this for a long time.
Well, if you think about it, since we're doing the Chicago Bulls
player rankings for the decade, they're like the thor one of NBA decade player
rankings because it's not bad like it's thor two, But there's probably better case
studies, like there are thor threes out there. It's just that the Chicago
Bulls aren't it. That was a really forced and yet pretty solid segue.
Let's get started. Let's get right into it. Though. We have the
top ten players, so the Chicago Bulls of the decade, who turned up
at number ten in our composite ranking. Yeah, I think this is the
first time it's happened, But there was unanimity for the number ten spot.
The fans, me and you all had Kirk Heinrich at number ten, which
I think is a It's a fun shout to a guy who most of his
time in Chicago did not count for our purposes because he left played for a
couple of other organizations before coming back to Chicago for the twenty twelve thirteen season.
But he was a solid role player, a solid offensive player, who
could distribute capably, who could shoot threes, and he played a fairly substantial
part on three straight playoff teams. So I get why we all wanted him
at ten, even if he's definitely not the most glamorous possibility there. He
was part of that subset of guards in Chicago that always seemed like they came
up big during you know what, like that wasn't Derrick Rose is my point,
like those remember the Nate Robinson run. He would him Rich is Obviously
he was in Chicago a lot earlier and then he was back there a little
bit later. But we think about Nate Robinson, who was who is the
other one. They just became novel and I feel like I just remember him
having a bunch of moments with Chicago, particularly after Derek Rose did end up
suffering his a c L injury and he's back with the Bulls in twenty twelve
through I think it ended up being almost twenty sixteen at that point, and
I just remember him kind of like you said, it's a solid playmaker,
but just hitting hitting shots and having games where it was oh, Kirk Heimrick
was really really good. And that's just what I associate with him, is
that subset of guards who were not Derek Rose that always ended up coming up
solid for the Bulls. Yeah, and I think there's something to the Captain
Kirk persona too, where just his importance in a leadership and mentor role really
can't be overstated too, so that he definitely fills the intangibles criteria as well.
And he look he shot fairly well for them from beyond the arc during
the playoffs stints that fall under this decade, three of them in which except
for that latter one where he was three of nine overall, and so just
having that reliable Oh no, I'm looking at two pointers there that was a
rough postseason for him, but it's sort of having the reliable game manager.
I don't know if you would call him underrated, but I actually didn't expect
him to turn up in number ten. I thought that the either you or
the fan vote and then the composite by extension might have ended up turning in
a different number ten guy. But we'll get into those with the honorable mentions
obviously. Yeah, I've very strongly considered Mike Dunleavy for that spot, and
it was a last minute change that had Heinrich grabbing the ten spot. For
me, I was torn with lowry marketing. Was the guy that I still
kind of regret leaving spoiler at leaving him off the list. Yeah, No,
I didn't really consider marketing him that strongly, just because to me,
he's he's shown what he can do, mostly at the end of that twenty
eighteen nineteen season where he caught fire and looked like a future star. But
this this current season has has been disappointing for him. He hasn't been able
to stay healthy. The offensive prowess has just kind of dried up. Maybe
it's because there's not enough talent around him right now. Maybe it's because he's
learning how to defer to more to guards that are controlling possessions more than they
did early in his career. But yeah, that the fans had market at
number nine, We both had Nikolamirotich at number nine, who did end up
at in that ninth place spot on the Composite rankings. Yeah, it's with
marketing. To your point, there's definitely been. It seems like the even
the past two years, because he was injured last year, dealt with injuries
this year, and even when he was on fire, didn't really feel like
he kind of ever reached that extra level as a score. And I don't
know how much of that is. Maybe the Jim Boylan impact of a big
thing in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen was they just got him the ball in terrible
spots both on the court and in the shot clock. And then you look
at the talent around him, and there's not necessarily a clear path to him,
you know, expanding his role at least not clearly, particularly after the
addition of of Kobe White, and you figure out having zach Lavine, you
also want Wendell Carter Junior to be able to do things, so it's it's
definitely complicated for him. I almost regret not putting him him on though the
Colmer Titch has the he has the theiriness factor over marketing. When you look
at the the minutes played for the Bulls during during this stretch only slightly though
eighty minutes played for the Bulls. He was he was sort of fascinating.
Do you remember him as being overrated or underrated as a shooter. I kind
of feel like I tilt towards more overrated. Where it was you expected him
to be like this, Really we just called him this floor spacing four,
that, this this knockdown shore, and his percentages never really seemed to align
with that during his time in Chicago. Interesting, I'm in the opposite camp
for him. I think that the overall numbers are dragged down by that rookie
season in twenty fourteen fifteen, where he was really trying to adjust to playing
in the NBA and playing in a competitive team where he didn't really have as
defined a role. But after that, like as a sophomore thirty nine percent
on five point two attempts per game, he regressed in twenty sixteen seventeen thirty
four point two percent on five point four attempts per game. But before he
was traded to the Pelicans in twenty seventeen eighteen, like that was his magnum
opus forty two point nine percent on six point four deep attempts per game,
And it was that season where he really became like an offensive powerhouse and a
smaller role. And I think that's probably more how I remember him, which
is an inflated perception, but to me, the role that he grew in
outweighed some of those struggles at the beginning of his career. The rookie season,
probably if you're willing to throw that out, which is totally fine,
that probably contributes to it, because when you look at the splits, it's
thirty one point six percent from three then thirty nine, but then it's down
at thirty four point two, and then it's up to before he was traded
to New Orleans forty two point nine with the Bulls that year, and so
that's definitely there's definitely something to that there. Then it just felt like he
was more of a seesaw and that he grappled with the similar identity crisis to
what marketing is going through now. I don't think he was ever supposed to
be the level of player that marketing is supposed to be, or was supposed
to be, depending on how out on him you are now. It probably
doesn't help though, when you look at how many injuries the Bulls dealt with
during those beginning years when he was in Chicago, and so he's dealing with
a lot of different types of not just personnel but the means by which which
they play, and so that certainly could have dragged him down too. But
he sort of he is a little bit synonymous with those you know, Joe
Kim error post Rose being an MVP candidate, even though he comes in later
into the equation, he's still kind of associated with that group. Yeah,
no, I'm in total agreement with all of that. I definitely don't put
him in the same category as as Mark Kennon. I think that he never
displayed quite as much all around offensive potential. It was it was more just
like the shooting stroke that that buoyed his stock. So I never really felt
that he was too much of a disappointment. He was just he was just
solid. Yeah, I don't view him as a disappointment at all. I'm
just I wonder if there's a case to be made to have There's definitely want
to have Marked in over Heinrich. I wonder if you could also have him
over Merrittagment. Maybe not though, Yeah, unless you just weigh the peak
that Markennon had in like in like late February of what was at twenty nineteen
where where everything clicked. I think that's the only the only real reasoning where
I that I'd be okay with for having him ahead of him. Attention Hardwood
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is checks in it? I believe we had a tie for number seven,
since we're ben skipping number eight. Yeah, we do have a tie for
seven place. And let's go ahead and start with Carlos Boozer, who's a
really interesting figure in Chicago's recent history, just because solid offense, solid rebounding,
not really much of a defensive presence. I think that he was largely
underrated during his time in Chicago. It was obvious that he was no longer
the dominant figure that he was with the Utah Jazz earlier in his career.
But then again, like that twenty thirteen playoff run, that was a big
deal for me and one of the reasons that I had him at seventh,
which is the same spot that both you and the fans had him, you
know, during the first round series against the Brooklyn Nets that went seven games,
seventeen point four points and ten point six rebounds per game, shooting fifty
four point five percent from the field. And then in the second round series,
which was ultimately a loss to Lebron James's Miami Heat, like the last
three games of that series, He was a huge offensive contributor for that team
and kept them in a lot of games that would otherwise have been blowouts.
So just performing at that level with the spotlight as bright as it was,
was my reasoning for having him up at seven. I not that I view
having him at I had him at eight in it, I believe, And
so we all had him at seven. Oh, we both had m oh
I did wow, well, I would have put I considered putting him lower,
and I definitely wasn't gonna put him any higher than seven. I think
you initially might have had him a little bit higher. Definitely sort of a
steadying scorer and rebounder during the regular season, but he was never the most
efficient offensive player when I came to the playoffs, and he has that I
really consider memorable, like one really good playoff campaign, and it's the one
I think it's the one where the Bulls played through twelve games. Was it
that that their conference finals year in twenty twelve twenty thirteen, I can't remember
right now, but that to me they made it to the semi finals.
So I remember him being good that year, but I just don't really remember
him having any hallmark playoff moments, and that's why I couldn't That's why I
toyed with, Hey, maybe zach Lavine should go in front of him.
Probably couldn't put him any lower than seven or eight, But I was of
the mind that I was really struggling to put him any higher. And when
you get into not to spoil anything, but when you get into cases,
for if you're trying to talk about Pau Gasol or ATAJ. Gibson, if
you want him on the level, I think Gasol would probably be the most
likely one to where people would debate between he and Boozer, and I just
I struggled to just for my playoff memories with Carlos Boozer, I sort of
struggled to put him any higher than where we have him right, And I
do think that the theirness factor that we've talked about in pretty much every one
of these episodes now is important here as well. I didn't realize until looking
it up while while researching for these rankings, but Boozer has played more games
than Derrick Rose for Chicago this decade. He's fourth on that list. He's
fifth and minutes played also ahead of Rose, ahead of Kirk Heinrich and miroticch
so that definitely has to matter here as well. No, I'm totally with
you. I think he's properly placed. His was just he might have been
the toughest one on the list among anyone for me to pinpoint. For me,
it was actually the guy he's tied with at number seven, which is
Zach Lavigne. Lavigne showed up at fifth place in the fan vote. Both
you and I had him at eight. Spoiler alert, Dan and I have
like almost identical rankings throughout this entire Chicago Bulls podcast. I think there's only
one difference where our fourth and fifth places are swapped. But yeah, Lavine
was tricky for me because he has put up such massive scoring numbers and become
such a reliable offensive presence. You know, at the beginning of last season,
when he was averaging like close to thirty points per game at the start
of the year, it seemed like there was a possibility that he could even
compete for a scoring title before James Harden decided to run away with that title.
But those numbers haven't really led him any wins during the three seasons that
he's been in Chicago twenty seventeen eighteen. They won twenty seven games. Eighteen
nineteen, they won twenty two. They have only won twenty two before the
season was suspended the current one we're in. So how do you balance those
big offensive numbers that to some extent at least are stemming from opportunity that he
likely would not be getting on a more competitive roster. I do agree with
you to some extent. And the reason he doesn't, for me, doesn't
get above Boozer and maybe into the Gasol Gibson conversation, is because he hasn't
been in the playoffs and there really isn't evidence that the way he plays elevates
his teammates. And I think to expect him to be that guy probably miscast
him. But when you look at the players that have routinely been around Chicago,
yes, Kobe White's good. Yes, Chris Dunn, before he was
injured this year, was playing well, but they just haven't put a floor
general next to him, even with Thomas Sadaranski he's I really liked Thomas Satoranski,
but you don't have that floor general type, and it seems like he
needs that type of guy around him. And yet you look at the numbers
the Bulls offense is not good with him on the floor, and I do
think that that matters. This isn't a Tray Young situation where where Chicago would
be competent, but then they'll fall off a cliff without Lavine on the floor.
They are worse without Lavigne on the court, but they're just also not
great. And so that's when he is playing, and so there's the evidence
that maybe he's not really going to uplift an entire offense with the way that
he plays. What I will say, though, is when you look at
his efficiency relative to the shots that he's taking, it's absolutely absurd. The
fact that he's shooting thirty eight percent from three this year on the types of
attempts that he takes. He's over thirty six point four percent on pull up
triples. He's taking a lot of shots off the dribble. I know a
lot of people were worried about him coming back from that ACL injury, and
you know, maybe we'll never see Lavigne get to the line at a high
clip. That might always just be a part of his game that we sort
of lament. He's not De'angelo Russell naked when it comes to a free throw
attempt. Ray, But he's not someone that you look at and say,
oh, like you can really trust him to get to get there consistently.
He still does get to the rim more than he was before the injury,
looking just at the frequency with which he takes his attempts from point blank range.
And so to have that guy, I really do think that there's value
there. It just takes a very specific number one, someone that he can
is forced to defer too, I should say, and then that makes both
his job easier and makes him better. And so I do still think there's
a really good NBA player there, potential All Star. But like you,
the lack of results in Chicago that really has to hold him back. Again,
it's not even just a matter of not making the playoffs, because you
can look at these bulls teams and you don't have to put their lottery births
on him. The fact that the offense, I think since he's been here,
is not ranked higher than the thirty fifth percentile when he's on the floor,
that is telltale of something. And the team's net rating has declined when
he's on the court, and two of his three seasons, and overall over
the course of those three they've been one point seven points per hundred possessions worse
when he's on the court. And that's not to say that he makes the
team. You know, that's one of those situations where maybe he's not elevating,
but if you replace him with a lesser player in his in that same
role getting those same minutes, obviously the team's gonna be worse off It's interesting
because I was I was going to make the Trey Young comparison as well for
the exact same reason, just looking at how how Young has put up numbers
that have elevated Atlanta's offense, and we haven't necessarily seen the same effect in
Chicago with Lavigne. The one thing I really want to see more from him.
He's done a fantastic job throughout his career at improving his shot profile,
especially the long twos. They've The frequency with which he's taken long twos has
declined every single season of his career. He doesn't take floaters, though,
and when he does they're not good. Throughout his three years in Chicago,
he's made twenty three point two percent of his shots from between three and ten
feet, and that's the range where we so often see these explosive athletic guards.
When that starts to click, everything starts to be better, because if
you're pulling a rim protector out where they have to respect that shot instead of
just meeting you at the rim, you're making life a lot easier on yourself.
And that's that's the spot where I really want to see him improve,
and I think he can just based on the touch he displays from the free
throw line on three pointers, and as you mentioned, some of his shots
are so difficult and he still makes them, So I have hope there.
But that's the area where like, if that, if that clicks, he's
going to skyrocket up these rankings. And then maybe there you do wonder a
little bit what happens if he does have less control over the offense, does
he because there are a lot of players who feel like rhythm or volume is
important. So if he can't dribble the ball eighty times before he's shooting as
freely, could that have an adverse impact on his numbers. But he is
one of the players where look, we've seen them, We've seen a team
try to build around him. Now I'd be very curious to see what he
looks like beside a more legitimate Number one. I am wholeheartedly with you.
Who's next up for us? Number six? Next up in six we have
Pau Gasol, who was eighth for the Fans and was sixth for both of
us. He was an All Star during both of his seasons in Chicago,
and I think it's yet another example of my theory that he's one of the
most underrated players in NBA history. I don't think he gets enough credit for
the star he was with the Memphis Grizzlies. I don't think he gets enough
credit for the role that he played alongside Kobe Bryant on the title winning Los
Angeles Lakers teams. And I certainly don't think that he gets enough credit for
what he did in Chicago. He continued to be just an offensive stalwart who
could contribute as a secondary facilitating hub, as a primary scorer, as a
guy who was becoming more of a stretch big. But just because those teams
weren't as competitive as the ones that we'd seen just a few years earlier with
peak pre injury Derek Rose, and because he clearly wasn't operating quite at the
same level that he did when he was in Los Angeles, right before Chicago.
I don't think he receives nearly enough credit. When you had first set
me your rankings for the Bulls, I was floored that you had pow Gasol
so high, and then we ended up putting him in the same spot because
I forgot just how incredible his numbers were during those two seasons with Chicago.
You talk about, you know, he all of a sudden really ups his
three point volume, taking him at least a similar never had taken threes with
that sort of volume, and he continued kind of doing it when he went
to San Antonio, and to see him in that second year, he's averaging
an attemph per game, which is a career high at that point, and
shooting almost thirty five percent from beyond the art. That added real value just
at that time in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, but his just overall numbers,
when you look at his passing four point one assists per game in that final
year with Chicago, there's weird obscured value and rebounding but consistently getting double double
tallies there for Chicago. I really do wonder too, what would have happen
had he had been healthy for the I think it was the twenty fifteen playoff
run or the twenty sixteen playoff run that he wasn't there for that. Maybe
that Bulls team is just a lot better if he's available for that. So
I after looking at the numbers and sort of reminding myself, it seems like
those two years were forever ago, because everything feels like it's forever ago at
this point, I ended up just being in full agreement with you, because
those two years in Chicago were spectacular and he was contributing two good teams as
well, which I really think needs to factor in right. And I think
it also matters that he was in his age thirty four and thirty five seasons
during those two years in Chicago. We've seen in the last half decade that
he was a decent lower minute contributor for the Spurs, and then he just
kind of fell off the radar with the Bucks. I believe he was dealing
with some foot injuries throughout his brief time in Milwaukee too, but like that's
a normal career arc for a guy who's in his late thirties, and I
think it's just another reason that that perception of him has has kind of fallen
off. But I mean his rookie season from in two thousand and one,
two thousand and two all the way through twenty seventeen eighteen, the average double
digit scoring totals every year, And that's that's something that not a lot of
players can say. Over the course of seventeen straight seasons. Who do we
have coming in at number five. So we're gonna move on from my talking
about how paw Kasol is historically underrated to talk about Taj Gibson at number five.
He was number six for the fans, He was number four for me,
and he was number five for you. One of the one of the
few spots where there was an agreement between at least two parties. But yeah,
I mean Gibson, it like kind of exemplifies the baroness concept for this
franchise. Second in minutes played only to Jimmy Butler over the last decade,
First in games played by eighty one games, almost an entire season more than
anyone else. Never really became a floor spacing power forward, even though we
originally thought that he could based on some of the midrange results. But just
a gritty, tough defensive player who who set the tone for a lot of
these hard nosed Tom Thibodeau defenses, and who also just basically for his entire
Bulls tenure, wasn't allowed to start until until the very end, and I
get there. Do you remember those debates whether Taj Gibbs he eventually started playing
more than Carlos Boozer, but they were the debates that should he be starting
over Carlos Boozer? And so he started. I believe he started most of
his games as a rookie when he was in Chicago, he did seventy starts,
and then his final season in Chicago, which was a partial season in
Chicago, he started all fifty five games that he played in. But I
really could only echo what you said. Just a solid guy. There was
that baby pick and pop jumper. You know, we wish you could he
could have extended his range, but he was at least knocking those shots downs
and many of those seasons at an above average clip. Just another one of
their gritty defenders that contribute to those teams where on paper it looks like they're
shorthanded, but oh they're churning out comfortably above five hundred records and their problems
in the playoffs. He was a big part of all that. I do
sort of wonder what he looks like if maybe he plays more center with the
Bulls. I know it wasn't necessarily an option for a lot of the time
that he was there, but I feel like his game, particularly on offense,
would have been much better suited for the five position, and maybe we
appreciate him a little bit more, not only if he gets more playing time
consistently enough in Chicago, but if that's a role that he would have played
more often as well. Yeah, I feel like he basically did on defense
just because of the pack the paint philosophies, you know, like the entire
Thibodeau principle was that we're going to spend as much time in the paint as
possible and kind of dare the officials to call us on land violations. On
the defensive end, so he did spend a lot of time protecting the rim
and guarding bigger players on the interior. So I think we got to see
that fully realized defensive version of him. But I do agree with you on
offense, where it would have been nice to see him working on drawing bigger
bodies out towards the perimeter. And it might have facilitated further growth in that
in that offensive arsenal. Who do we have coming in at number five?
So Gibson was number five, but at number four, at number four we
have lu All Dang, who was number four for both you and the fans
and was number five for me. Do you talk about underappreciated? I feel
like most people now only remember the Luel Dang that was in sort of,
you know, a talent of Chicago. Then he goes to the Heat,
then he's with then he's with the Lakers. He was really really good.
There's the season and well that doesn't really doesn't fall into this purview. But
you're looking at the first season Derek goes MVP season, he averages seventeen point
four points, two point eight assists per game. His three point shot always
kind of came and went. There were seasons where he hit it at a
higher clip the years in which he took it with actual volume, though it
really dipped. He only had twenty eleven twenty twelve four attempts per game with
thirty six percent thirty six point seven percent shooting from beyond the arc. One
of the best defense perimeter defenders, though of his specific era, when when
he was healthy and in his prime, and the minutes that he would play.
Two seasons with the Bulls, he leads the league in minutes per game
average thirty nine point four minutes per game in the lockout season, which is
a little bit wild, and then the following year leads the league of minutes
per game again twenty twelve, twenty thirteen with thirty eight point seven. Just
always so reliable in that respect. I do wonder though, and I'm not
trying to throw this at Tom Thibeau, but how many careers has maybe that
type of mindset that Chicago had during that time, some of which was born
from necessity because you look at what was going on with Derrik Rose. Even
jokeim Noah missed a lot of time, but does does Luell? Dang if
he's not playing through what seemed like a couple of knee injuries. I believe
that span is his career lengthier? Is he at least relevant for longer?
And I think that's a fair question to ask. But during his time in
Chicago, he was he was really good. I would say consistently he played
at a fringe all star level, and that's super valuable to have when you
weren't necessarily Yeah, there were times where he needed to be the number one
of the number two, but that's not actually why you had him. Man,
you stole my talking point. I was I was gonna do some tips
bashing here, because I do think that the Dang is probably the most egregious
example of all the careers that I don't want to say ruined, but we're
shortened by the inability to rely on the bench and the strange willingness to leave
guys on the court forever. You know, Dang was pretty much washed by
the time he was thirty, which is which is sad and not what you
would expect from a guy who was able to contribute in so many different areas.
You covered everything really well, But the only thing I wanted to add
was it all felt to me like he was really reliable from the corners,
even if even if the overall percentages weren't there. It seemed like so many
times he was a bailout option in one of the corners, and that was
a shot that you could really rely on, and that I associate pretty strongly
with this last decade of Bulls basketball. I'm just curious if you agree there,
I would agree. I also I want to say, if you can
answer this question, how many all defense teams did you make? I don't
think he ever made one. He made one, and I actually won.
I actually thought that was low. I could have sworn that he made two.
Yeah, it's tough, just because there are so many good wing defenders,
and I think that some of the guys like him, who do the
dirty work and who are always taking those toughest assignments on the perimeter, don't
always get the credit they deserve because he never really racked up steals or blocks
like you see from a Kawhi Leonard or a Jimmy Butler, and that probably
held him back there. I'd agree. Who do we have at number three?
This is where things get The top three were hard. The top three
were really tough. Everyone had the same three people in their top three.
They were barely separated in our composite rankings. But at number three we do
have Derrick Rose, who was number one from the fans, which really doesn't
surprise me. He was number three for both of us, and he did
draw over half of the first place votes from fans as well. He did
not appear on one ballot, which is which is interesting. He was ninth
place on one, but other than that, he was in the top four
for everyone. You know it, Rose didn't really play as much as as
as we wanted him to, as we maybe remember him playing because of all
the injuries. But you know, only two hundred forty seven games. That's
fifth place over the last decade for the balls, he's six ten minutes played.
But then that peak, you know, the the MVP season does count
here. The ensuing season before the on slot of injuries began does count here.
And it's tough to balance the lack of volume you might expect with a
superstar so associated with a franchise with that remarkable peak where you know, just
one athletic layup or dunk after another, the pure explosion driving the basket,
unlike what we've seen from almost every guard throughout NBA history. Yeah, and
look, it's not We're not trying to shoot on him by putting him at
number three either, and there are I am not. The season of Derrick
Roses that I'm most impressed with was this past year in Detroit, where he
was just legitimately good and it came out a time where everyone was out on
him. Is MVP campaign was spectacular. I want to make that clear.
I still would have given the award that year to Lebron James. What I
think really hurts his case. What I think really hurts his case is that
so the years that qualify for this decade in Chicago end up being six seasons.
How many times was he the best play on the team during that span
and a lot of the when you're going to say no in a few years,
it's because he wasn't available, But that needs to be part of it,
and so you already touched upon it. And he's actually because of when
you look at a lot of the turnover of the the Bulls is supporting cast,
he's actually fairly high, and minutes played for the decade, he's sixth,
which is that's solid, and that's enough too if you're going to vote
him on. I don't think it's something that I would actually quibble over.
But the lack of availability following really his MVP campaign, or let's just following
the ACL injury and twenty twelve, but even then he had missed that was
a lockout shortened year, and I think he had missed twenty seven games during
the regular season, and so that lack of availability specifically, you know,
didn't play played about half the year let's say a little bit more than half
the year in twenty eleven, twenty twelve, Miss all of twenty twelve twenty
thirteen only appears in ten games, and in twenty thirteen twenty fourteen, that
stretch really ends up hurting his let's call it the theiriness factor for Chicago.
And then he just wasn't the same player when he came back and he put
up he put up numbers for you know, his first season where he played
in fifty plus game twenty fifteen. He averages over seventeen points a game that
season, but you see that his efficiency really starts to take a dip.
And I do know, and people have criticized him for his failure to adjust
on the court, I actually understand his struggles there in that moment, just
because of how young he still was in the trajectory that he was on.
That wasn't something that he was supposed to have to do. We see stars
as they get older struggle to really assume role player duties. There are ones
that have made the transition more seamlessly than most. You know, Vince Carter
is probably a good example, but it even took him a while to get
there, and he battled his own health problems, and so this isn't me
and I'm assuming you as well by putting him at number three behind the two
players were about to talk about. It's really not trying to take a shot
at Derek Rose. I just think his lack of a bell of availability and
his struggles post ACL, they're enough to make it so that he is by
nowhere, that he is nowhere near a consensus number one or even number two
player for this franchise over the course of this decade. Yeah, I'm in
total agreement with you, And that was part of the reason I really struggled
with the order of these three players, because I think there's a valid argument
for any of them in the number one spot. But yeah, I think
those post ACL injury seasons were more detrimental than anything else, just because of
the volume shooting coupled with diminishing efficiency, coupled with a decline and playmaking ability
because so much of his passing stemmed from those drives into the lane and then
the kickouts, and when he's not gaining as much separation and creating as much
space on those drives. The passing declined too. It was just it was
an all around it was an all around dip, and it was a little
bit too much for me to overlook. And then I think we also wanted
to say on the Rose topic, and I apologize if I'm not phrasing any
of this as well as I could. We did. We did waffle with
how we wanted to handle the rape accusations that stemmed from his time in Chicago
recovering from an ACL injury. I don't really want to dive into the details
of the case, but we ultimately didn't let that affect how we placed him
in these rankings because those those were not made public and did not become a
big storyline until his Chicago tenure was over, So it really did not affect
the on court element, which is all we were concerned with for these rankings.
So if you wanted to drop him in your personal rankings because of the
moral transgressions and because of what that does to perception of him as a person
and a player in Chicago, that is totally valid, and we will in
no way diminish those feelings. But we just wanted to explain that that we
did think about it, and that's ultimately how we chose to handle a sensitive
time topic. Well said, and I echo everything that you just dropped.
It was the focus, try to stay on basketball. But I won't fault
anybody for holding him down in their rankings beat because of it. It's going
to be a part of his legacy, and it can be a part of
his Chicago legacy as well. But we were trying to look strictly at off
the court rankings here, and so if anyone thinks that we put him too
low at three, that part of his legacy actually did not factor into us
putting him at number three. And it's an interesting segue at number two,
which is is Jimmy Butler. He was unanimously two for me, for Dan,
and for the fans, and he was an example of where off court
decisions and behavior actually did impact the on court product. And it's just because
of the ugliness of his exit from Chicago to Minnesota in twenty seventeen. You
know, maybe if he had handled that a bit differently, the trade return
might have been a little bit different. They ended up trading him and Justin
Patton to the Timberwolves, for Chris Dunn, Zach Lavine and Markenen, which
has worked out well, but could they have gotten more? Has it worked
out well? Let's yeah, I mean it, yeah, I think that's
fair, but like at least you did get to two consistent contributors out of
it. But for me, that was an example of how like yeah,
like obviously that's nowhere near as as serious at an occurrence, but because it
did have a direct tangible impact on the Chicago Bulls franchise that dropped that that
made it harder for me to put him in the number one spot, which
I originally did want to do because he was just so damn good during the
end of his Chicago tenure, like those those last three seasons in Chicago where
he was a twenty point scorer where it seemed like he was coming up big
and crucial moments every time, where he was developing it to more of a
playmaker for his teammates, are reliable shot maker who could create more for himself,
Like I think that was, aside from Rose's MVP season, the best
basketball we've seen played by any member of the Bulls in the last decade.
You almost sort of forget that your prime Jimmy wasn't really in like the best
of Jimmy Butler wasn't in Chicago for as long as you remember that he was,
because his minutes were just curbed. His first two seasons he barely played
as a rookie, and then even that third year when he was playing a
ton of minutes, they didn't really give him the keys to the offense.
Like that's a I think that was something that they, like, he showed
out in the playoffs that year, I think it was in the twenty twelve
twenty thirteen playoffs is kind of would put him it seems on like Thibodeau's map,
but they didn't really start giving him like real control over the offense in
the following season, Like it took a while for him to get there.
And so, you know, you mentioned those final three seasons in Chicago where
he's clearing twenty points per game and turns into kind of this secondary playmaker that
wasn't really like those were the three seasons. Like when you're ranking Jimmy Butler's
time with the Bulls, maybe you do look at that twenty thirteen postseason.
Maybe you do look at the fact that, yeah, you know, in
twenty six minutes a game. He plays in all eighty two games in twenty
twenty thirteen during the regular season, really establishes himself as this hard nosed defender
like that that certainly matters, and it's part of it, But it's those
final three seasons twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen,
twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen that really make his case. And I think it's
fair to say that maybe he's the like the best player the Bulls have had
on their team this decade. But I don't think he was at his best
or at his most ideal for long enough in Chicago to supersede the guy that
we ultimately placed in front of him. And I think part of that is
just the story of how he became a star. You know, just at
Marquette, he never became anything indicative of a future NBA superstar, which is
why he came off the board at thirtieth in the twenty eleven NBA Draft.
And you know, it took him a few years to carve out that role.
He he only played eight point five minutes per game as a rookie.
It wasn't until his junior season where he really earned a bigger role because of
his defensive abilities, but he couldn't shoot that year. You know, he
slashed thirty nine seven, twenty eight three, seventy six nine during that third
season, and then everything clicked in the fourth year, and that was the
beginning of that three year span that that really elevates him into this spot.
But I did want to ask you, do you think Jimmy Butler is going
to be a Hall of Famer And if so, what jersey is going to
represent him? Wow? Basketball references Hall of Fame probability, which is based
on you know, how players have fared in certain statistical categories that tend to
correlate with entry into the Hall of Fame, gives him a forty two point
five percent chance right now. I would imagine that's only going to go up
because he's only thirty years old, He's currently playing at a very high level
despite some shooting struggles for the Miami Heat, and I think we have at
least a few more peak seasons, So I would imagine he's going to finish
his career north of fifty percent. But has he made too many ugly exits
from places and ostracized too many people with his ridiculously sleep deprived work ethic.
Yeah, everyone needs to get up at three in the mornings that they can
go work out with Jimmy Butler. That is not healthy, by the way,
just for anyone they will not recommend. I'm not a sleep expert because
I don't get enough of it, but I definitely know like getting up at
three in the morning to work out after you probably didn't go to bed till
at least eleven or twelve is definitely not, definitely not healthy. My guests
would be he gets into the Hall of Fame, that would just be my
gut guess. I would say, as of right now, he has to
go in with the bulls. That could change if he won ends up spending
as much time in Miami. Let's say he makes it through all four years
of this contract or you know, the first three opts out, signs another
four year deal and ends up playing I'll say a half decade or longer in
Miami and just the going there is smoother. Maybe he makes it to a
finals. If he wins a title in Miami, he'll certainly go in with
the heat. Would be my guests there. As of right now, though,
I'll say he'll go into the Hall of Fame and then he's just going
to be most remembered for his time with the Bulls and because part of look,
part of his stardom is the route by which he got there, and
that's where that's where Chicago just comes in where it's, oh this Everyone might
have talked about his work ethic when he was first drafted by the Bulls,
but he went from playing you know, eight point five minutes per game through
forty two regular season games in the twenty twenty twelve regular season, barely playing
in the playoffs that year, then all of a sudden, he's just super
important to what they're doing on one side of the floor. And then jump
ahead two more years and he's also their best offensive player. Right But to
be clear, you're you're ruling out the Minnesota Timberwolves as an option if we
have a Zach Lowe has talked about this a lot, if we have like
a Hall of Fame weirdness part of like, if there's a weirdness sector of
the Hall of Fame, we definitely need to play with Karl Anthony Towns for
sure. Yeah, Jimmy Butler's tour to Force, where he preferred to play
with the third stringers and beat up on Minnesota's Minnesota starters. That has to
go in there. Yeah, I can't argue with that. Everyone should know
who number one is. But but can you say it for us, mister
frommel I can It's a Jokeim Noah. He was third place for the fans.
He was first place for both of us. I don't have any regrets
about that, just because I think the consistency with which he contributed throughout his
time in Chicago. You know, we don't get to count the first three
years of his career, but it really wasn't until the third one where he
developed into just this this relentless defensive contributor who really sparked Chicago's ability to establish
its entire defensive identity. His ability to to shut down the interior and to
show off some lateral quickness switching on to other players, and then his ability
to facilitate as a big man was just massive. You know, he never
scored more than twelve point six points per game in Chicago, and yet it
just didn't matter. You know, he didn't need to score to be a
hugely impactful player, which is why we saw him finished fourth place in the
MVP voting in twenty fourteen, which is probably looking back on it, maybe
a little bit of an overreaction to the season that he had for a really
good team, but still like he absolutely deserved consideration on the ballot despite not
even averaging thirteen points per game. And that's that's something we can't say a
lot about a lot of players, but it is something you can say about
a d poy who is also one of the best passing bigs with one of
the weirdest shooting forms we've seen. Yeah, he basically releases it at the
hips. It's a sidewinding push shot. Yeah, so awkward when he was
not even just airball free throws. But when you watch his live jump shots,
like game action jump shots, those are the ones that those hit a
little different or really they don't hit at all. But anyway, it is
number four really severely overrating the season he had that year. Maybe Jane Carden
that season, Yeah it could have a little bit. Yeah, I mean
Harden. I think you can make an argument for Steph that year as well.
I think Chris Paul is always undervalued. I just when you look at
his impact on both sides of the floor for Chicago, with the exception of
Lebron James that season. When you look at everyone who's in the top but
I guess, aside from Chris Paul in the top seven of MVP voting,
I'm not sure anyone else aside from Chris Chris Paul, Lebron James had more
of a two way impact on their team. If you want to throw Kevin
Durant in there, that's fine. I kind of want to throw Kevin Love
in there too. I know that the Timberwolves were awful, yeah, But
I mean, I'm always against the argument about like all around value there because
if you're that good on offense, even if you're bad on defense, it's
still outweighs being decent on both ends, which no, it wasn't decent on
both ends. He was good on both ends. But like that was the
season Love averaged twenty six thirteen and four, you know. And I think
that there's an argument there too, just because I don't personally believe that team's
success should factor into MVP voting as much as it does. But that's admittedly
a personal bias here. I think that that Noah had a case for four,
I'm just not sure that he would have been there for me. But
regardless, like he belonged in the discussion. Yeah, I mean, look,
he anchored the second best. He doesn't leave it year, and I
guess the case against it would be he meant. I think what really sells
me on the two argument for him is because of how important he actually was
to the offense, Like it wasn't just someone who was setting screens and rim
running, like they relied on him for his facilitating. The counterpoint to this
would be that the Bulls had the third worst offense in the league that year
when they were still relying on him, the same season that Derrick Rose played
in only ten games. And so I definitely you could go back and relitigate
the MVP the MVP voting, for sure, But twenty thirteen twenty fourteen was
peak Joe Kim No. One is the season I'll just always remember from him.
He absolutely deserved the Defensive Player of the Year award, and he's another
one of the players. And maybe we'll look back and say this about Jimmy
Butler a little bit. We already said it about Dang But if he didn't
play for TIBs for so long. I just wonder if he's you know,
more relevant in the NBA for a longer stretch of time after leaving the Bulls.
Shout out to the Knicks though, for for signing him in twenty sixteen
while bidding against absolutely nobody. So this, this isn't a dream. And
it really happened right that he signed with the Clippers and was preparing for some
sort of comeback before the season was suspended. Yeah, no, it wasn't
a dream. And also, he was really good when he played for Memphis
last year. If it was a little bit more than half a season,
small burst, but you know what, that's fine, and he you know
what he does. He'd be harder for teams to play now than he was,
you know, four or five years ago, just because I don't know
how is he gonna move on defense now? Prim joke, Kim Noah could
really chase guys around. But now you factor in a slowed down version of
Noah with the lack of floor spacing on offense, you probably can only get
away with him for maximum twelve to sixteen minutes a game. But that's that's
also fine. I would have welcomed seeing him play again, because he actually
was pretty good in Memphis last year. So, if you're if you're arting
a team from scratch, how would you rank Noah's twenty thirteen fourteen season,
Jimmy Butler's twenty sixteen seventeen season, his final one in Chicago, and Derreck
Rose's MVP season in twenty ten eleven. I'm thinking Jimmy's final season in Chicago.
Really there's just something. Look, I'm going to appreciate the efficient three
point shooting from him that year on let's call it modest volume, three point
three attempts per game and above the league average. And then when you're looking
at what Noah could do best, it wings who can face up and even
and guards as well. They're just gonna have an inherently more influence over the
outcome on offense. And then so if you want to say Derrick Rose his
MVP campaign was better offensively than Jimmy Butler during his planning year in Chicago,
I would probably agree with you. But now we have to factor in what
Jimmy Butler does as an individual defender at the other side of the floor,
and then I think that's what really me there. If Derrick Rose was a
better three point shooter that season, or really at any point during his career
in Chicago, maybe you can tilt the scales toward him for me personally.
Get you're free to pick whoever you want, but the answer is pretty clearly
Butler for me. So I think Rose had the best of the three seasons,
but it's also the one that I would least like to build around,
just because I think you can find the poor man's version of that most easily.
And that's kind of why I would pick Noah's over Butler's, just because
of scarcity. Yeah, I don't think. I think it's easier to find
some sort of replacement for Butler on the wings. I think it's much harder
to find that true defensive player of the Year candidate who's also capable of serving
as an offensive hub. So, if I'm starting from scratch, like,
I think that's the most valuable addition of my team that makes it easier moving
forward and placing players around him. Fair Enough, people are gonna take this
as a Derrick Rose podcast, but it's really not. No I mean,
like again, like, I think he had the best season of any bull
over this decade. Who who are our honorable mentions that we can run through.
Right, So we had in the end vote moving beyond the tiber Titch
at number eleven again he was number nine for both of us, and then
we ventured into uncharted territory. Here we have we have Nate Robinson at twelve.
We have Dwayne Wade at thirteen, which I guess some hometown bias there.
Maybe I couldn't figure out why he got so much love considering how little
little time he's spent in a Bull's uniform and how we kind of try to
forget that that happened. Yeah, that thirteen is way too high for Dwayne
Wade. That doesn't even we don't even need to go deep into that.
So tied at fourteen, we have Kyle Korver and Ben Gordon I tied at
sixteen, we have Ronnie Brobin Lopez. Tied. At eighteen, we have
Mike Dunlevy, who I have strongly considered putting in my top ten, and
Keith Bogans, who I did not consider putting in my top ten. At
twenty we have a tie between Bobby Portous and Rajon Rondo. At twenty two,
we have a tie between Doug McDermott and Wendell Carter Junior. Maybe a
little too early for Wendell Carter Junior. Yeah, it's a maybe a little
projection there. Tied at twenty four, we have a very interesting group of
guards. We have Rip Hamilton, we have Campaign, we have Jamal Crawford,
and we have Jimmer for Debt, who somehow got a sixth place vote.
I thank Jimmers. I was gonna say shout out Andrew D. Bailey
for voting also a possibility. At twenty eight we have Jabari Parker. At
twenty nine we have a tie between Justin Holiday, Kobe White, Thomas Satoransky
and Omar Ashik, who I was surprised that Ashik didn't get a little bit
more love just because of his defense over his time in Chicago, and then
tied at thirty third we had CJ. Watson and Otto Porter Junior. And
finally in a tie for thirty fifth, we had Andres Nocioni, Antonio Blakeney,
Shaquille Harrison, DJ Augustine, and Chris Dunne. Names that I did
not anticipate saying today. I will say I've heard stories that Shaquille Harrison defends
his ass off in practice. Maybe that's maybe maybe they were waiting that that's
fair, I hope. So, I'm not sure what the other argument is
aside from the name. Maybe you've got him confused for Shaquille O'Neill. Like
I get that it happens. I'm disappointed Aaron Brooks didn't get any love.
He was the other small guard that I was thinking of that would go kaboom
from time to time during yeah, that one season. Yeah, so,
actually this seemed like the of the teams we've done so far. This is
number five. I feel like it had the least egregious honorable mentions. Dwayne
Wade at thirteen is pretty bad, but it's also Dwayne Wade and he's his
own brand. Yeah. I didn't really have many qualms to the other ones.
Maybe Keith Ogan's, but I think that that was a trolling ballot,
I want to say, because they had Carlos Boozer in first place, Ronnie
Brewer and second, and Keith Bogans and third. Yeah, shout out to
whoever went that route. I would love to hear how you value certain things
on the basketball court. It seems like a good discussion to have. But
yeah, I think that there were there were fewer egregious responses here. Well,
Adam, this was fun as always. We have the Cleveland Cavaliers coming
up next, I believe we do. We will be recording those at some
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we leave you with the shout out too. Keith Bogans, Sugar Ray
Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends
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