WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.759 --> 00:00:08.679 Hi, You're listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely anything to 2 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:14.039 do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're a teacher, a lecturer, 3 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:18.039 a student, or just taking a passing interest. This podcast will look 4 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:22.800 at a range of issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, 5 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:27.960 religion, crime, education, and anything else that sociology has to offer. 6 00:00:29.839 --> 00:00:33.039 My name is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode, I will speak to someone 7 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:37.119 working in the field of sociology and let them explain all about their own interests, 8 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:42.000 their research, and their experiences. So put your ear phones in, 9 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:49.880 turn the volume up, and let's be sociology geeks together. Ah, Hello, 10 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:53.600 and welcome to the Sociology Show. My guest for this episode is Professor 11 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:58.000 Lee Elliott Major, talking about his new book, Equity and Education, leveling 12 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:00.439 the playing field of learning. Before we get stuck into that, just a 13 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.400 couple of messages for you. The first one is for students listening. 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Thank you very much for listening to the 32 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:23.199 messages without further ado, let's go over to the interview with Professor Lee Elliott 33 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:29.719 Major. Enjoy Hello and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. Would you like 34 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:31.159 to start by telling us a little bit about who you are and what you 35 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:37.560 do. Please, So I am Lee Elliott Major. I am the country's 36 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:42.560 first professor of social mobility. Believe it or not, we actually don't know 37 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:46.960 of another professor in this film in the world at the moment, so very 38 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:53.000 proud to be that. At the University of Exeter. I was formerly chief 39 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:54.719 executive I think called the Sutton Trust, which is what a sort of big 40 00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:04.319 education foundation which is dedicated to improving life prospects through education, dedicated to improving 41 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:08.080 social mobility. So I'm unusual in the sense I'm a professor practice. There's 42 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:15.120 someone who's had another role in their career, and my job in a nutshell 43 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:21.800 is about doing research, but also working with schools, universities and indeed governments 44 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:29.439 and increasing actually employers to improve prospects for children from underresourced backgrounds. Will come 45 00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.159 back to that point on language, because I used to use the term disadvantaged 46 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:37.919 pupil for most of my career, but we have reassessed that in our latest 47 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:39.759 book, and we might get back to that, Matthew on that, but 48 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:45.960 that's in a nutshell. So I increasingly present across the company, indeed in 49 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.800 other countries as well these days. You know, these issues of inequality and 50 00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:57.199 education, social class, influence on life prospects, social mobility are things that 51 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.000 most countries now are interested in. You know, is quite interesting for me, 52 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.680 So so increasing a global topic. Thank you, thank you, And 53 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:10.520 I'm always always interested in why that particular area. I read that you were 54 00:04:10.520 --> 00:04:13.719 the first of your family to go to university. I just be interested to 55 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:17.040 know about your own background and in terms of where you are now. So 56 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:21.240 again, I'm very unusual as a professor in that I do come from basically 57 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:27.519 a working class background. I'm from West London. I'm a place called Felton, 58 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:31.839 which is famous for its Young Offenders institution, and that's where I grew 59 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.759 up. My mum and dad, as you say, didn't go to university. 60 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:38.800 So I was first and families to go university. I lived on my 61 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:42.319 own from fifteen. It's quite a story actually when I look back on it. 62 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.279 I was on social security. I was quite academic at school, so 63 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:50.040 I was one of these kids again, we'll get back into this. That 64 00:04:50.199 --> 00:04:54.959 was sort of plucked, you know, because I was very bright academically, 65 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:58.040 even though I was from a more work class background. I was sort of 66 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:02.399 helped by teachers to go back to school and they were really instrumental, as 67 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:05.959 well as some family members who helped me and some friends. I lived with 68 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:11.480 my best friend's family for a time. They took me in. So one 69 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.639 of the things about my life I always say is that you know, we're 70 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:18.439 all products of many people, and I really dislike the narratives that you know, 71 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:23.160 it's all about me and how brilliant I am. Actually, most lives 72 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:26.920 are a product of many people. It's just that some people forget those people 73 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.120 that help them when they were younger. Right. So I used my story 74 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:35.399 when I give lectures now. So the Daily Mail did a news piece on 75 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:40.160 my life and it was from bin man to professor. And it's true I 76 00:05:40.360 --> 00:05:43.399 was a bin man, but I was a bin man during the summer. 77 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.879 It was a job my mum got me. It was nepotism. She worked 78 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:48.879 for the local council. It was a summer job while I was doing a 79 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:53.759 PhD. Right, So there's always a different side of these headline stories. 80 00:05:54.519 --> 00:05:59.279 But it's an important story for me because when we discuss it with students and 81 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:05.480 in d T and undergraduates, it's a nice example to explore what we actually 82 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:10.079 mean by social justice or social business. That I would argue that we need 83 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:15.759 good beIN men right as well as professors. So let's not implicitly suggest that 84 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:23.360 these jobs are somehow inferior to other jobs. And let's not also implicitly suggest 85 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:28.000 that being working class is inferior to being middle class. So I use my 86 00:06:28.079 --> 00:06:31.199 own story really to explore what I call the sort of deficit mindset which I 87 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:36.319 think still dominates a lot of education. And the book Equity Education, a 88 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:41.680 lot of what we talk about is trying to challenge those very dominant sort of 89 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:47.519 deficit approaches that dog the education systems this day. It's really interesting you think 90 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:50.639 that because I was reflecting on myself like you, as the first in the 91 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.959 family to go to university, and the expression caught up in here is you 92 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.360 know that the boy that done good? As if had I not gone through 93 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.040 that route and education, had I been a bin man, or had I 94 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.040 worked in a call center, that's not doing good. I find that really 95 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:09.360 interesting that doing good seems to be progressing further rather than staying in a working 96 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:14.600 class profession. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I would argue that 97 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:21.839 my job is about enabling young people to find out what they can do with 98 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.560 their lives. You know, irrespect your background shouldn't determine what you do whatever. 99 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:30.160 That is right and that you know, for some people, they don't 100 00:07:30.199 --> 00:07:33.199 want to move to the big cities and get a high playing job that is 101 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:39.439 very stressful. They want a decent life, They want to contribute to society, 102 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:44.600 and they want to stay in their local community or regions. So I 103 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:47.839 think these debates are really interesting. And the problem with that sort of rags 104 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:53.000 to riches story is it makes us all feel like we're failures. Right, 105 00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:57.120 so you say, yeah, the system works because these people kind of implicitly 106 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:01.160 the assumption has worked really hard or were really talented, did and made it 107 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.079 to the top however we defined it, and the rest of you are losers, 108 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.319 you know. So I think we've really got to challenge some of those 109 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.800 dominant narratives we see in the press. And I was very nervous when you're 110 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:18.000 Daily mail, Honestly, you don't know quite what the headline's going to be. 111 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.720 To be honest, it was a very generous story about me, but 112 00:08:22.800 --> 00:08:26.639 it did play to those assumptions definitely. Yeah. Do you think it is 113 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.879 more of an issue in Britain? People always say Britain is one of the 114 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:33.279 most classes societies, if not the most classes. I'm just thinking, for 115 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.480 example, I work with a fellow sociology teachers who's German, and he says, 116 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.240 you know, in Germany, if you have a vocational job, if 117 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:45.720 you have a more manual job, it's got a much more higher status than 118 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.919 we tend to regard in the UK. We still seem to be quite obsessed 119 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:52.200 with, you know, the academic versus vocational roots and the snobbery that comes 120 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.559 with that. I do think we are obsessive about class divides, and we 121 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.960 certainly invented the class, you know, if you look back at the history 122 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:09.440 of Britain. But I also think class does exist and persist in other countries. 123 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.080 I just think it's more subtle. I don't think they necessarily call it 124 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.320 class. So in Germany, you know, if you're from a certain part 125 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.200 of Germany with a certain accent, or you have a particular education, and 126 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:22.480 you're absolutely right, they are properly better on things like apprenticeships than us, 127 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:28.240 but they still have some sort of class system. Every country I've looked at. 128 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:33.919 I think there are some what I call status markers in the workplace, 129 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:39.120 your accent, where you come from, your education, and those are not 130 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:45.240 directly really about talent. They're just about your class, okay, and it 131 00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:48.120 just means and there's been some lovely work done on this by socialogists, there 132 00:09:48.200 --> 00:09:54.399 is this sort of class ceiling that we observe in the UK. I'm convinced, 133 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.159 and this will be probably the next book, by the way, is 134 00:09:56.200 --> 00:10:01.679 that there is a class ceiling across the world world and in many ways the 135 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:07.279 British and American cultures have influenced the rest of the world. And you know, 136 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:13.120 because we have a very globalized business system in this world, and I 137 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:18.159 think some of the assumptions about how we define talent have been explotted across the 138 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.240 world. So it's a really interesting topic. Maybe that's for another time, 139 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:26.000 but you know, to what extent is class global I think is a really 140 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.159 interesting question. Yeah, it's interesting. I've taught a few international schools and 141 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:35.639 there's still this obsession. We're going to England for university you know, it's 142 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.399 still got that high prestige and status, even students from Singapore applying for UK 143 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:45.000 universities when they've got fantastic education in their own country. Yeah. And you 144 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:50.320 know, speaking English is a real asset across the world. Speaking English with 145 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:56.360 an accent at an English accent or an American accent is seen as better, 146 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.919 for example, in India, than having an English language but an Indian accent. 147 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:05.399 There was a real status hierarchy in these different places. Accents are really 148 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.600 interesting. By the way. We do talk about this a bit in the 149 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.960 book. My accent has changed a lot. You know, I come from 150 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:18.720 Western I was basically talked a bit like that when I was younger, and 151 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:22.120 I always remark on this when I give lectures. The fact is my accent 152 00:11:22.159 --> 00:11:24.440 has changed, and I'm not sure if I did that consciously, but you 153 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:28.639 see this with a lot of people like me who are what I would call 154 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:33.240 awkward climbers. We've we've kind of lost the place we came from. We 155 00:11:33.320 --> 00:11:37.720 don't quite know where. We still feel a slightly imposter syndrome when I give 156 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.879 lectures. I got an obe from Buckingham Palace. You know, I still 157 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.960 felt someone was going to grab me on the back of the shoulder, say 158 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:50.879 Lee, right, go back to where you came from. Honestly genuinely felt 159 00:11:50.039 --> 00:11:56.080 that, as well as pride in being recognized for my work. And I 160 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:01.000 think this is something that a lot of people relate to in my generation. 161 00:12:01.159 --> 00:12:05.279 And I think I was, in many ways the first wave of social mobility, 162 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.080 that sort of model of you know, picking these kids from disadvantages around 163 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.399 the resource backgrounds, giving them a chance to get into a leading university. 164 00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:18.440 And I think a lot of my generation are reflecting on that now and saying, 165 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.399 yeah, it was okay for us as individuals, but the system has 166 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.440 stayed the same. So how do we change the cultures of schools, universities, 167 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.360 and employers to make them more inclusive rather than you know, making me 168 00:12:31.519 --> 00:12:35.240 and others become sort of middle class clients. Right. So I think that's 169 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.960 going to be a big discussion over the next decade. How do we make 170 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:45.000 places more inclusive. It's interesting that you say that you know that the system 171 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:48.879 or the ideas are still the same. I mean a level sociology students listening 172 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:50.919 that will have studied the likes of Paul Willis in the nineteen seventies, and 173 00:12:52.039 --> 00:12:56.919 how are Becker's labeling theory right up to Diane raise miseducation study. It sounds 174 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:00.879 like nothing's changed. You know, some of those studies go that fifty plus 175 00:13:00.960 --> 00:13:03.159 years, are we still talking about the same issues and the same problems. 176 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:09.559 I do think some of these issues are very persistent. So if you look 177 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:15.879 at some of those earlier studies, I think they apply equally today. Diane 178 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:18.639 raised great work calls, but you know, there's some really interesting stuff in 179 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:26.279 America. Annette Lore's work on concerted cultivation when she looked quite a small study 180 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:31.799 actually looked at middle class and working class families in America, and what she 181 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.159 found was that the families from middle class background, on average get you gotta 182 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.480 be careful to generalize, and this had a sort of what I would call 183 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:43.360 this sort of sharp elbow behavior. She called it concerted cultivation, basically getting 184 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:48.799 your kids to advocate for themselves in the classroom, you know, getting questions 185 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.720 from the teacher, getting getting feedback, advocate for yourself, and you know, 186 00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:56.720 doing all sorts of activities at home, doing all those extra activities that 187 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:01.240 middle class parents do with their children. Whereas working class families did what she 188 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:07.039 called natural growth parenting, right, and that is much more it's less structured. 189 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.759 It just I call it the hands off approach. The point about this, 190 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.799 Matthew, is that not that one approach is better than the other, 191 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:16.639 because again they both have their rub advantages and disadvantages. You know, concerned 192 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.080 cultivation, middle class shop elbows is a very stressful environment sometimes and can actually 193 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.240 actually lead to young people having anxiety and not having much free time. Right. 194 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:31.240 But the point is this, and those studies from early on show this 195 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.600 as well, that the academic system, the schooling system, and certainly the 196 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:43.720 university system is much more throne or much more sort of use to that middle 197 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:46.679 class culture. Right. So it is a middle class culture essentially, So 198 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:52.279 if you're from a middle class family, you're much more likely to prosper in 199 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.600 school than if you're from a work class family. The question that comes from 200 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.440 that, I think, is do we need to make explicit the unwritten rules 201 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.679 of the game that often operate in the classroom or the workplace, or do 202 00:15:03.720 --> 00:15:07.000 we actually want to challenge those rules? Right to what extent are these rules 203 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:11.679 you know? Needed? Is a really interesting debate, but this goes back 204 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:16.279 a long way. You know, if I look at Bernstein's stuff on the 205 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.399 language. Here, he talked about the restricted code versus the elaborated code that 206 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.720 was in the nineteen fifties, and his point was that again again on average, 207 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.559 middle class children tended to speak in an elaborated code that's sense to be 208 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:33.919 more extended senses with bigger words, whereas working classes tend to speaking that more 209 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.039 restricted code, smaller word or sentences. Now, the point is here again 210 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:41.759 that you need a bit of both. Actually, in good writing is a 211 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:46.840 bit of elaborating umbership, but when we're when teaching mode and certainly in professor, 212 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:52.600 you tend to talk more in that elaborated code. This was talked about 213 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.960 the nineteen fifties. I still think that applies today. So I think we 214 00:15:56.000 --> 00:15:58.919 still have this sort of debates, and maybe we're a bit more open about 215 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.919 class, and we can talk about how maybe class has changed in some respects. 216 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:10.559 But my view is there are still the persistent class divides that are persisted 217 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:15.240 for quite a time in this country. Some people would argue some more on 218 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:19.279 the conspiratorial arm of the social mobility world will say that this is all intentional, 219 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.759 This is how the social elites replicate themselves from one generation to another. 220 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:29.200 Right, they created a system that only they can win. And when you 221 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:34.000 look at the absence rates now from pupils, many of whom will come from 222 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.320 those low income or work class backgrounds. In a way, I think what 223 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:42.440 we're seeing post pandemic is almost a rejection of the school model. You know, 224 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:47.240 what's the point in us coming to school if there's no jobs locally in 225 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:52.960 our part of the country. It's a very narrow academic curriculum that can be 226 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:57.120 gained by the middle classes through extra private tutoring. There's not much in it 227 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.399 for us. And now, mum and dad didn't do well school, and 228 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.839 our grandparents didn't do well at school, right, so I can sort of 229 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:08.319 see why some children aren't going to school. I think we need a debate 230 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:14.319 about the curriculum that we offer. It's not just about knocking on people's doors. 231 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:18.119 So yeah, in an nutshell, these things have been persistent for many 232 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:22.279 decades. Thank you. I was just looking at my phone. Actually I 233 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.920 wasn't being rude. The reason being I asked some of my department if they 234 00:17:25.960 --> 00:17:27.599 wanted me to fire any questions at you and what you were just talking about. 235 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:32.440 One of my colleagues, James, who's a fellow sociology teacher. If 236 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.279 I could just pose you this one, he says, does he think the 237 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:40.119 working classes actually value the education that is provided to them? Where is it 238 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.920 on their list of priorities? Do they have different learning needs? And it's 239 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:48.480 the current system geared up for these. So one thing I'd say to you, 240 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.880 we summarize the literature and aspirations, right, have you, is that 241 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:56.759 all parents want the best of their children. They're again I've seen a lot 242 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:02.720 of rhetoric from politicians around you know, working class parents don't have high aspirations 243 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:04.240 for their children. I would challenge that. I think a lot of this 244 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:11.359 is about knowing the reality of what realizing those aspirations. How do you go 245 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.880 about doing that for you children? So I'm not convinced that there are low 246 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:23.599 aspirations among parents. I do think, however, that the education system as 247 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:30.119 it's currently organized does not fulfill all the needs of all our children. Why 248 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:34.559 do I say that, Well, if you look at the annual results of 249 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:41.680 GCSS, for example, around twenty five percent of young people do not get 250 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:45.559 a grade four in their English and maths GCSS. Right, I believe the 251 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.559 system should be good enough that every child, whatever they go on to do, 252 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:53.440 whether it's academic or vocation or whatever, should be able to get what 253 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:59.839 I would call functional literacy and numacy at school. But I don't believe that 254 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:06.000 the current system is catering for all the talents among our children. So I 255 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:12.160 would explore, for example, a curriculum that adds more vocational ATMs in their 256 00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:18.880 serious vocational options. I think creative skills, I alwayso think social emotional skills 257 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.759 to add to that. And I know that you know, teachers are so 258 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:27.119 busy with this is but I do think we need a discussion about how we 259 00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:32.839 judge and measure essentially talent in school. So at the moment, it's a 260 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:38.799 very narrow conceptualization of ability. It's academic summarizing of you know, which is 261 00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:42.039 you know things I was very good at, right, you know, memorizing 262 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:48.359 facts, analyzing. I think actually that there are many children who have different 263 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:53.200 talents that we do not basically nurture in our school. So in the book 264 00:19:53.279 --> 00:20:02.079 we do talk about celebrating a broader mix, if you like, of attributes 265 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:08.119 in the classroom. The Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind contributions of sponsorship 266 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.680 and donations. If you enjoy the show, then you can help with the 267 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.920 hosting costs by donating as little as five pounds on the go fundme page. 268 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:22.599 Simply visit UK dot GoFundMe dot com and search for the Sociology Show. If 269 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:26.079 you can donate, then you will be sent a Sociology Show pen as a 270 00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:32.400 small thank you for your continued support of the show. And you also mentioned 271 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:37.400 about celebrating working class figures and popular culture as well, Danie, do you 272 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.759 want to say a little bit more about that? So yeah, I don't 273 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:47.200 think there's enough celebration of working class achievements in the curriculum. So we cite 274 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:52.920 just a few names. You know Mary Anning, who was an amazing fossil 275 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.880 hunter from Lime Readi's right on the South coast, who came from a really 276 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.799 poor background but was an amazing She was also a woman, by the way, 277 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.400 in an era of Victorian era that didn't celebrate perhaps women as much as 278 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:10.960 they should done. We talk about Storms as a sort of more recent example, 279 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:17.319 and that's interesting because of course he has Black history as well comes into 280 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.400 that as well. It's not just working class. We're really keen when we 281 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.799 talk about work class, by the way, to think of it in an 282 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.720 intersectional way, right, So this is not just white working class important as 283 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:32.200 that is, right, this is about people from a mix of other characteristics. 284 00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:36.720 And that's important because what we know from the studies is that those young 285 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:41.759 children who have a number of characters can suffer multiple disadvantage. Right, So 286 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.319 if you happen to be female, black, and working class, that can 287 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:51.759 be really difficult for you in the classroom. So yeah, I think we 288 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.119 should do far more. There's so many people in our history, right who 289 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.319 have done really well, and often they're in the curriculum, but I think 290 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.240 we need to explain where they came from. Michael Faraday is another example. 291 00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:11.319 You know, I did physics right a level an amazing character and he came 292 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:15.240 from a very you know, humble background. Changed the world in terms of 293 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.839 what we know about electricity. Right. Without Michael Faraday, we probably wouldn't 294 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:25.240 have the electricity that runs all the electronic devices we have today. So I 295 00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:29.119 think this is more about It might be in the curricular curriculum, but I 296 00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:33.519 think that it would be really good for pupils. If you come from a 297 00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:38.279 background, under resource background, it's really good to know that there are other 298 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:44.920 people, right that did contribute to society, saying that you've got to be 299 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:48.599 careful you don't fall back into that deficit mode. I not everyone could be 300 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.079 Michael Faraday or Mary Anna, right, so you've got to get the balance 301 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.640 right. But I don't think there's enough in the curriculum. And Michael goes 302 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.720 when he introduced that concept of cultural capital. So if you're inspected by a 303 00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:07.119 school now, you know, in the Offsted framework there is this paragraph on 304 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:14.039 cultural capital, but it tends to be a middle class notion of cultural capital. 305 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:15.079 You know. It's things like I mean, I'm in a characture here, 306 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.839 but it's like going to the museum, going to the theater really important. 307 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.440 All children know about those opportunities. But it's also important that we talk 308 00:23:23.480 --> 00:23:30.799 about I know, football, that we talk about other rich cultures in this 309 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.279 country that have more of a working class tradition. And again, you know, 310 00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.359 I think we tend to fall into deficit mindset. Even the term social 311 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.599 mobility itself implies, isn't it sort of moving from the way politicians of it 312 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:49.960 are interpreted, is moving from the sum there bottom to the top. It 313 00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:56.279 implies that there is a place that isn't as good as another place, right, 314 00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:59.799 So yeah, I think we could do well. The other thing about 315 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:06.160 this, Matthew, is, of course teachers come from middle class backgrounds mostly 316 00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:11.119 like professors do, right, And by definition, you know you are middle 317 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:14.440 class if you're a teach, that is, in believe it or not, 318 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:18.400 because teachers are of course totally underpaid compared to the other professional groups, right, 319 00:24:18.400 --> 00:24:25.319 But you are classified as one of the professionals. And the problem with 320 00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:29.839 that is that we all fall into unconscious biases. Right. So the studies 321 00:24:30.319 --> 00:24:33.960 are quite humbling on this in that they show, and when I do sessions 322 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:40.920 with teachers, it's always a really interesting exercise that teacher judgments tend to judge 323 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:48.160 children from more work class or low income backgrounds more lowly than the actual test 324 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.359 results would suggest, and vice aversa for middle class children. Right. So, 325 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:56.920 now, I think we all suffer from these biases. And if you're 326 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.480 middle class, you're going to probably tend to rel relate to those middle class 327 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.799 pupils in the classroom a bit more. So you're probably just going to be 328 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.519 a bit more warm, You're going to probably give them a bit more eye 329 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:10.119 contact. It comes back to actually work. By the way, what you 330 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:12.839 were talking about earlier. Some of the lately people are talked about labeling theories 331 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:18.200 in this or you know, self fulfilling prophecies, you know in the classroom 332 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:25.119 where you kind of make some assumptions about that child and then they kind of 333 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.079 play up to those assumptions and before you know it, you're in a cycle, 334 00:25:27.799 --> 00:25:32.559 which means that that that pupil will not excel as well as they might 335 00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:37.000 do. So so, yeah, really important to understand that that the biases 336 00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:41.960 and barriers in the classroom. Yeah, I was just looking This is another 337 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.000 question by James. I suppose it's more of a statement and you've kind of 338 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:47.599 answered it, but I just read it anyway. James says, if the 339 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:51.920 curriculum value system and teaches a white middle class on the whole, why wouldn't 340 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:56.119 there be biased against working class groups and some ethnic groups as well. I 341 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.720 think you've kind of answered answered that one in that respect. Can I fire 342 00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.440 another one? An't you? That's all right? So Leslie another fellow sociology 343 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.359 teacher, and this is something that's always got me thinking, Actually, why 344 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.559 is classism the least discussed of the isms, You know, We often talk 345 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:18.680 about racism, homophobia, sexism, and see them as you know, very 346 00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:21.920 bad things, you know, in terms of how they're judged. But classism 347 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:26.839 doesn't seem to quite fall into that sort of severity, if that makes sense. 348 00:26:27.160 --> 00:26:33.160 Yeah, it's almost become a taboo subject in many of these debates. 349 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.799 And that is a real pity because I think that, like diversity efforts in 350 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:45.599 the workplace are flawed unless they consider class as well as ethnicity and gender and 351 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:49.319 are the characteristics souse. If you're missing out that characteristic, you're going to 352 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:53.279 miss out a lot of young people, right. And it's also, as 353 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.799 we were talking earlier, it's intersectional, so you know, you're missing a 354 00:26:56.920 --> 00:27:02.960 huge bit of what we are as people. And so yeah, I really 355 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:06.559 worry about that. And a lot of my work is in a sense promoting 356 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:10.759 this idea that we need to talk about class alongside these other characteristics. I'm 357 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:15.000 really keen to say that that's not instead of right, this compliments those other 358 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:18.640 issues, and there's a real complementarity here. You know, some of the 359 00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:23.440 things we talk about in the book, you know, could apply to pupils 360 00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:29.880 who struggled with biases because of other characteristics, Right, The other thing I 361 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:33.119 would say about this as well, that we've emphasize in the books. Really 362 00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:38.240 important to say on this is that education can't solve all societies ills, right, 363 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:42.759 So you know, I talk about bias in the classroom, and I'm 364 00:27:42.759 --> 00:27:47.200 working with teachers to think through the practical implications of that. It's been really 365 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:51.440 interesting actually talking to some geography and history teachers last week about this, and 366 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:55.359 we were talking about how you give feedback in the classroom. Our children respond 367 00:27:55.400 --> 00:28:00.640 to behavior processes in schools, how do you differentiate in the classroom that There's 368 00:28:00.680 --> 00:28:04.559 so many questions about clash in practice that sort of emanate from these discussions, 369 00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:08.759 but it's really important to also emphasize that schools can do so much. So, 370 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:12.519 you know, in the book, we talk about the flawed assumptions of 371 00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:17.599 modern capitalism, because what we have, in a sense, whatever party you 372 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:21.279 look at in the UK, is this assumption that we can have quite wide 373 00:28:21.319 --> 00:28:26.960 inequalities in life, both material and cultural, as long as schools are there 374 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:30.759 to equalize opportunity. Right. So it's down to you, teachers essentially to 375 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.920 make it all happen, you know, And that's implicit in a lot of 376 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:40.119 the political debates we have. The evidence points to a very different conclusion, 377 00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:44.160 and that is that a lot of children's outcomes are shaped by the home learning 378 00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:48.759 environment, what happens outside the school gates. And I think in the book 379 00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:51.839 we talk a lot about what can schools contribute to that? So, for 380 00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:56.160 example, many schools now provide free school breakfast, for example, So you're 381 00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:00.799 kind of getting into that social welfare stpaa's effectively right as a school And it 382 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.599 saddens me in some ways because I think teachers are so stretched. But then 383 00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:07.799 you know, when I visit schools, I say, Lee, there is 384 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.640 no one else picking up these pieces. So if no one else is going 385 00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.519 to do it as teachers, we're going to try. But I think the 386 00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:17.839 problem with it is that all the evidence suggests that schools can't do it on 387 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:21.319 their own. So you know, if we're going to have a serious debate 388 00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:26.359 about equity or social ability or social justice, you have to think about how 389 00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:30.720 you address inequalities outside of schools as well as inside them. Right, So 390 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.160 while I'm challenging teachers to reflect on their biases, you've just got to put 391 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:38.519 that into context, right, which is teachers can be transformative, but they 392 00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:42.240 can't hold the whole of it on their own, right, So you've just 393 00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.920 got to make sure you understand that. Yeah, I was going to say 394 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.279 a lot of the inequalities start before the child's even started school at the age 395 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.839 of five, haven't they. We need more Marcus Rashford's in the world. 396 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:56.119 That would be a good start. This was really interesting. You know, 397 00:29:56.480 --> 00:29:59.599 I do this kind of quiz question when I give lectures, which is, 398 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:04.359 you know how many universities have produced English Prime minister since the war? Right? 399 00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:08.519 The answers won't everyone is Oxford and nothing on Oxford. I'm a fellow 400 00:30:08.519 --> 00:30:11.880 at one of the colleges then, or but I think it is amazing that 401 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.680 only one universe, not even Cambridge, has produced, let alone someone like 402 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.279 Exeter. Right, and there are primises. By the way, didn't go 403 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:22.960 to university, and Gordon Brown was Scottish. I'm not including him, So 404 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:26.559 just any very good questions on that. And by the way, Keir Starmer, 405 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.720 if he does become a crient, I think did a postgraduate degree ox 406 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:33.880 I've checked that so And by the way, I've had to update that slide 407 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:40.599 several times the last year, recurring sort of slide. But I mentioned that 408 00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:45.519 because I think it's really important that we do have diversity at the top because 409 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.440 what's happened recently in you know, we got this inquiry into the what happened 410 00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:53.359 in the government sort of management of the COVID, you know, that really 411 00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:57.480 interesting inquiry, and I think a lot of things coming out of that are 412 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:02.440 when Marcus Rashed was saying, actually, we need to we need to offer 413 00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:07.680 all children, you know, free meals during the summer holidays, and stending 414 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:11.720 that at the cabinet because they were all from such a small slice of society, 415 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:18.920 didn't quite understand the issues facing those children, right. So, so 416 00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:23.839 the problem with low social mobility is that you get a dysfunctional I would argue, 417 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:33.000 and certainly disengaged elite that the governors the country, and then you'd get 418 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.359 those issues where you get a bit of a disconnect between those and the people 419 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:41.200 they're meant to serve. Yeah, definitely understandable that. And I was just 420 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:45.400 thinking as well as you were saying that as you sort of move up through 421 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.559 through education, you know, I teach a level myself, I wonder if 422 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.200 the if the gap is even more noticeable at that stage. If I think 423 00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:56.839 of the college that I'm teaching in at the moment. You know, the 424 00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.799 A level students come from some very very sort of affluent areas. I live 425 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.480 and hope some very affluent areas, and those students that do come from the 426 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.599 working class backgrounds, I think perhaps even film more fish out of water. 427 00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:12.400 And one of the questions that I've had from another sociology teacher, Sophie, 428 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:17.319 she says, what is the best way to poverty proof at A level? 429 00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.400 What could be done in our classrooms? And I know the second half of 430 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:24.119 your book focuses very much on what we the teachers could do, so I 431 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:28.920 was interested in your thoughts on that. Well. By the way, we 432 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:35.200 have similar issues in universities. So versus are trying to recruit talent from all 433 00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:38.359 backgrounds, but it's really difficult, particularly at universites where you have very high 434 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:44.559 A level grades for entry. So in fact, I'm doing a lecture tomorrow 435 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:46.880 on this at my own institution, my own university, to try and reflect 436 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:52.039 on how we can up our game as a university on this. I do 437 00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:58.559 think as teachers we need to be aware of those young people in the class 438 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:01.640 that so for A level, You're absolutely right if you look at the statistics 439 00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:06.839 around a levels, you've already lost many children, for example, on free 440 00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.880 school mills right there. The attrition is quite horrifying actually when you look at 441 00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:15.799 the statistics and that then shapes you know, the population that they go on 442 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:21.599 to university. So I think there's a number of things teachers can do. 443 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:23.319 I mean, the thing that you've got to be so careful of with all 444 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:31.400 this is not to label or stereotype the pupils in your class while giving them 445 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:36.160 support in a non patronizing way. Right You're known this, Matthew is. 446 00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:39.240 It's very difficult. So some of the discussions I get into with teachers is 447 00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:46.039 how you provide support without making those children feel like they're they're they're in need 448 00:33:46.119 --> 00:33:51.759 in some way right, that they're being patronized. We talk in the book 449 00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:59.720 about not labeling and actually thinking in the classroom. Disadvantage is a continuum really 450 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:05.839 any classroom. It's not pupil premium versus non pupil premium as we tend to 451 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.159 think of in schools, right because funding comes in for those children free school 452 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:14.719 mills through the pupil premium. So one thing I think you need to really 453 00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:20.840 think about is think about all good teachers do is thinking about pupils as individuals. 454 00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.679 They're all basically a product of many different factors, and so you really 455 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:31.400 got to just be careful in stereotyping I guess those young pupils and just not 456 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:37.360 assuming. I mean that phrase poverty proofing is a really interesting one, and 457 00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.199 I think culture proofing might be another one. Right. So, I think 458 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.920 we're not explicit enough about what's expected at a level and indeed university, so 459 00:34:46.000 --> 00:34:51.119 there is this notion that you're more of an independent learner right a level. 460 00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.840 I think that again is a bit of a middle class bias for someone like 461 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.000 me. You know, I was used to that that was my tendency, 462 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:05.559 right. I think many childrenm middle class flounders have been taught that they've been 463 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.119 developed from very early on, whereas if you come from work class back you 464 00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:14.400 might just not understand that of experience that as much. So I think as 465 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:20.119 a teacher, you've just got to question your own assumptions and also the fact 466 00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.400 that we all come from quite middle class backgrounds, right. So, I 467 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:28.920 think there's a lot of reflection we could do as teachers to just to think 468 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.840 about some of the biases and barriers that are in cost of the problem. 469 00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:37.320 I think the system is none of their training around teaching mentions these sort of 470 00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:42.599 issues. You know, I do lectures for training teachers on disadvantage on the 471 00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.000 quality, but it's to be honest, it's far on fear between that those 472 00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:51.159 teachers will get that sort of grounding, you know. And I think some 473 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.760 of our teachers are put into situations where they've got very little experience of the 474 00:35:55.719 --> 00:36:00.559 spectrum of society that they're actually going to be serving. So I certainly think 475 00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:04.719 we did should do more in training, and I think things like OFSTED inspection 476 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.880 should have much more of a focus, explicit focus on what is this school 477 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:15.119 doing for those from underresourced backgrounds? Right, And again I really emphasize a 478 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:21.800 language here. You know, we've moved away from that description disadvantaged pupils because 479 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:27.679 we feel that that immediately puts the emphasis on the pupil, It defines them, 480 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:31.440 whereas it's the circumstances that those pupils have experience that might have affected their 481 00:36:31.519 --> 00:36:36.719 learning, it's not them as individuals. And we also spoke to a lot 482 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.400 of A level students who said, I don't particularly want to be labeled as 483 00:36:39.400 --> 00:36:45.880 disadvantaged, right, So I think it's really important the language teacher uses as 484 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:50.360 well. And just to clarify that you use the word under resource rather than 485 00:36:50.360 --> 00:36:53.159 disadvantage, is that right? Yeah? I mean, you know it's not 486 00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:58.639 the key point here is you know, lots of studies that I and others 487 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:01.239 are involved in, you do find, you know, one group on average 488 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:05.760 is low income compared to enough. So you can use those terms when it's 489 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.440 well defined to look at different and we have to do that to find out 490 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:14.519 what the inequalities are in education. But at classroom level and even at school 491 00:37:14.599 --> 00:37:17.280 level, I think the language we use and the work I do with charities 492 00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:22.079 and other organizations, I think we should use the term, you know, 493 00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:25.559 pupils from underresourced background. Now, not everyone agrees with that, and some 494 00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:29.880 people don't like that word under resourced. By the way, I use that 495 00:37:30.039 --> 00:37:34.159 term because it fits in with some of the board you sort of notions of 496 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.480 cultural capital. You know, board you uses that term capital because it has 497 00:37:38.519 --> 00:37:43.920 an economic parallel, right, And in a way I would argue that that 498 00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:47.880 totally agree with that that you the cultural divides are as important in my view 499 00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:52.559 as economic or material divides. So when I talk about under resourced. I 500 00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:58.760 don't just mean money or you know, I mean culture. You know, 501 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:04.639 it's just that you haven't been cultivated in the norms of the classroom or the 502 00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:09.559 workplace. And in the book we list actually the advantages that many children have 503 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:15.440 and that we put onder sort of material things like being you know, paid 504 00:38:15.639 --> 00:38:20.960 to have extra private tutoring or live in a house near a school that is 505 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:24.119 even demand. And then we look at culture. You know, how you're 506 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:29.800 helped as you know, by your mum or dad to know how to navigate 507 00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:34.079 the education system right or t advocate for yourself. We talk about education adviangs, 508 00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:37.599 and then we talk about health related advantages because sadly, what we're finding 509 00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:43.679 is that many children and those basic health entitlements are being eroded. So loads 510 00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:49.199 of studies showing that those with short maybe some site issues in terms of their 511 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:53.679 eyes have not been diagnosed properly and then get sort of labeled as special education 512 00:38:53.800 --> 00:39:01.079 needs right food, clothing, dental checkups on. It horrifies me that our 513 00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:05.519 generation, Matthew, no, I'm cleaning you in this by the way, 514 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.039 you and me, you know, we've allowed those basic entitlements to be eroded 515 00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:15.119 in some ways, I would argue that we have gotten backwards. And if 516 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:17.480 you look at all the social mobility studies that I know as have done. 517 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:22.199 For example, you know, we know you're more likely to be downwardly mobile 518 00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:27.639 in terms of social class compared to your parents. That's the first time on 519 00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.719 average, that is, there are some people who are upwardly mobile, but 520 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:34.639 for the first time there are more people that are downwardly mobile. It's hard 521 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.199 to get a house. If you're young adult, you'll know this is a 522 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:43.800 teacher. It's really difficult for this generation. And in my view, this 523 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:50.440 is fundamental stuff. It's about capitalism, It's about is the society we've created, 524 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:54.000 you know, creating a level playing field that everyone can even lead a 525 00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.320 decent life in. And I'm afraid the answer for me is no. At 526 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.239 the moment that brings us, brings me nicely onto the full title of your 527 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.159 book plate because its equity and education, leveling the playing field of learning. 528 00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.840 Did you want to say a little bit more about the book if people are 529 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.119 interested in a perhaps reading it or buying it. So I've used that metaphor 530 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:20.559 the playing field of learning a lot in these debates, and as I said, 531 00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.760 I don't believe we exist in a world where there is a level playing 532 00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:30.800 field. The book is a summary of a lot of the issues we've covered. 533 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.840 So the first two chapters really are a summary of sociology and education inequality, 534 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:39.440 you know, social class and then there's some chapters that are specifically for 535 00:40:39.599 --> 00:40:45.559 teachers, you know, giving teachers advice to how to reflect on this, 536 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.320 and there's stuff from bias in the classroom all the way to how do you 537 00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.480 work with parents and communities in your school in again non deficit sort of way. 538 00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:59.440 And then the final chapter really is about international comparisons and we look at 539 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:04.280 other countries is to see if anyone else is doing this better than us and 540 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.480 what we can learn from them. And there are some things I do think 541 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:13.199 that other countries do it better than us, That their inspection systems for schools 542 00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:17.079 aren't as narrow as ours. They do take equity really seriously. If you 543 00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:22.639 go to under Scandinavian countries that do very well for social ability, they prioritize 544 00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:28.119 equity before excellence. You know, we tend to have debates about excellence all 545 00:41:28.199 --> 00:41:30.719 the time. You know, they think that you go for equity. I 546 00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.760 either children that need help most and everyone else will do. Okay, everyone 547 00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:39.679 else will benefit. So really interesting those international parsons. But that's the book 548 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:44.599 in a nutshell perfect. Thank you. And if people want to find out 549 00:41:44.599 --> 00:41:46.679 a little bit more about you, they can add you on Twitter or do 550 00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:50.599 you want to give out any other details at all? Yes, so I'm 551 00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:52.639 still on Twitter. Let's call something else now X. Sorry I should say, 552 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:58.840 excell I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter. I haven't quite got into Instagram and 553 00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:02.679 other yet, but I probably should do. But I'm You can look me 554 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.760 up on the internet very easily. There's a ted X talk that I did 555 00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.199 a few years back that talks about this on level playing field if you want 556 00:42:10.199 --> 00:42:16.400 a forty minute summary of that. But there's lots of me and you know 557 00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:22.280 I'm involved in the media quite a lot as a professor, so you know 558 00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.280 there's loads of articles in The Guardian, for example, on various things I've 559 00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:29.440 done over the years. So and please get in touch. You know, 560 00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:32.760 I'm very happy I do do lectures for A level students. You know, 561 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.400 I do stuff at Exeter College for example. I do stuff around the world 562 00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:42.480 actually, and it's always lovely to speak with A level students as well as 563 00:42:43.239 --> 00:42:46.480 teachers and undergraduates. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time Todayly, 564 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:51.679 I really do appreciate it. And are we positive about the future? I 565 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:53.639 always like to end on something a bit positive. Do you think we are 566 00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.880 going to see changing, We're going to progress? Are we getting there? 567 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:00.320 Do you see any sort of development as well? Do you know what? 568 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:04.679 I am optimistic and there's a lot of schemes I'm involved in. We've got 569 00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:10.000 a scheme at the moment using undergraduates as tutors for year seven pupils in local 570 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:15.360 schools. Right. I think there's a real appetite from people to contribute and 571 00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:21.079 to concentrate on this idea of social justice. And I look back at history. 572 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.280 You know, one of my favorite politicians is President Roosevelt Franklin D. 573 00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:29.599 Roosevelt. You know, America was struggling in the Great Depressions about a hundred 574 00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.519 years ago, much bigger issues in many ways than we are facing. And 575 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:37.719 yet they focused on providing a free high education to more people. To the 576 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.840 New Deal where they provided work for those out of work. You know, 577 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:46.519 he even proposed a maximum salary. Can imagine that basically no one would be 578 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:51.519 able. He was hoping to earn over about two hundred and fifty thousand thousand 579 00:43:51.559 --> 00:43:55.960 today's money that didn't get through Congress. I mentioned him because I think that 580 00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:01.239 that focus on social justice created the the America, the Great America of that 581 00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:06.039 sort of twentieth century. I mean there's issues now, of course, which 582 00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:08.760 we could go into, but I think there's a real you know, I 583 00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:16.119 think if we got together as a teachers and undergraduates and young the young generation, 584 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:21.679 I think we can really change the world. I honestly believe that that 585 00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:24.760 sounds like a perfect point to end the interview. Thank you very much again 586 00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:28.880 for your time today, and good luck with the promotion and the book as 587 00:44:28.920 --> 00:44:31.039 well. Thank you, Matthew. That was really good. I hope I 588 00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:35.119 didn't speak too much because I get quite excited by these no, no, 589 00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:40.480 thank you very much again. The Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind contributions 590 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:45.559 of sponsorship and donations. 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