What is krack lacking fellow thermonuclear a efforts. I am Dan Valley coming at
you without my certified fantagulist co host Grant News. But I am as always
super excited and pleased and grateful to be joined by the one and only Justin
Rowan from the Chase Down Podcast, one of Hardwood Knox's favorite podcasts that we
mentioned fairly often during the regular season. Here we're gonna talk about the Cleveland
Cavaliers. If no one, If no one caught that on the Cleveland Cavaliers
look ahead fancier than a preview or an outlook. Obviously, because the name
has changed, follow Justin on Twitter, it is still Twitter at yo.
Your handle always trips me up. Am I supposed to? It's like I
pronounce it cavsnadas. It's supposed to be cavs aanda. Yeah, I go
cazana. That's that's usually how I pronounce it. Well, it's c a
v s a n A da. Go go follow him there. He is
a He is a great follow Justin. How the heck are you doing?
Damn? I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me back.
I'm excited to talk about the team. I'm excited that we're now in September,
training camps going to start before the end of the months. We're almost
there. We're almost away from like rankings and all the lists and tears and
shiit of the off season. We're finally getting back to basketball and I'm excited
about that. Yeah, I'm I'm torn between Wow, it's already September and
oh, like opening nights still like seven weeks away or whatever. It's like
it's just like one of those that still feel so far away. But it's
also like, oh, where's the time go on? We're in September.
I can't explain it. Yeah, yeah, it's it's not as close as
I'd like it to be, but it's starting, you know. I'm you're
starting to see a couple of leaves drop falls coming, so you have to
deal with the the end of summer, But even a summer also means that
sports are about to pick out there, and I'm always excited about that.
So I wanted to start here before we sort of dig into the forward looking
stuff. When you look at last year's team, what do you think was
more indicative of where they were at their body of work during the regular season
where I think everyone understood that they were a great defense. I don't think
many people knew they finished like seventh in point score per possession. So you
have a top seven offense and defense win fifty plus games. Or was it
what happened in the playoffs against the Knicks where it felt like it wasn't just
about their limitation shining through, but they also got away offensively from a lot
of what made them successful during the regular season. So what was what do
you read into more? Is it the larger sample size or was it,
Oh, when the games mattered most, this is what happened. You're gonna
yell at me. I'm going to sit on the fence here. It's both
like part of the reason throughout the regular season when we saw those metrics where
it's like, okay, you got a top ten on offense, top ten
defense. This is all the markings of a tender, right, Like their
net rating is second best in the league. Usually that means it's a contending
team. Gardner and I were saying, pump the bricks, like this is
a team that's going to have an embarrassing loss in the playoffs. At some
point, the wheels are going to fall off inexperience really really matters, and
you have to have respect for these teams above them that are more experienced.
Now, I thought that was going to be Philly, Boston, Milwaukee that
did it to them and not the New York Knicks, So that aspect was
incredibly surprising. But I think they're a bit of both. I think that
they are as good as they were in the regular season, like I think,
at their best, that's the type of team that they can be.
But you know, the inexperienced the hiccups that they face in the playoffs.
Like honestly, if you look at that Game one, if that Josh Hart
step back three doesn't go in, they would probably win that game and that
could have changed the complexion of the series. But I think losing home courts
so early in it, getting away from what they did well, that just
started to eat them mentally. And I really do feel like they ended up
beating themselves in that series. But I think that they're in a better position
to learn from that, both from internal growth and with the moves that they
made this off season. I think we sometimes just underrate experience because it's tough
to measure where it's like, yeah, sometimes the team just needs to go
through that shit and it's gonna help them identify where they need to get better,
what they need to add. I will say, though I think I
picked the Calves in seven, I might even picked them in six. I
thought the Knicks had no chance in that series because I was higher on the
Cavs offense than I think a lot of people weren't. Clearly I was wrong,
just because I thought the way that a lot of their offense was framed
felt I don't want to say an accurate which is hyperbolic, of like they
were leaning on these two guys so much when like you look at what Evan
Mobley was able to do as a playmaker, and like the movement that it
felt like was constantly around him, and it felt he was won. I
think a driving force of that. Guys were just like cutting harder and moving
without the ball more knowing he might find them. And so I just I
would watch their offense and then having Donald Mitchell Darius crom just like, no,
this seems a lot better than people think. And so even as like
Zach Low was saying, pump the brakes, I know you guys had talked
about and you just mentioned that you were gonna that you thought they might get
bounced in the second round and it might be embarrassing. I was just like,
no, they're here. I thought I thought they were just immediately like
legit contenders. And again clearly I was wrong. But that's like a pretty
damn good baseline to be working off of. Yeah, it is. And
the funny thing is, you know what the Cavs were able to do last
year, Like, I think the fact that they had such a good offense
in the regular season despite not having any spacing, Like, I think that's
a feather in the cap for JB. Bicker staff and the coaching staff.
They were second in frequency of points off of cuts, which is usually kind
of the way a good measure of how much movement you have in your offense.
And they were number one in points per possession off of cuts as well.
So from a frequency and an efficiency standpoint, they generated a lot.
And when you look at the playoffs, that didn't change. Like the frequency
in their their points off cuts was right up there, the points per possession
was up there. Isolation, they actually had less isol possessions in the playoffs
than they did in the regular season. Points per possession stayed the same in
those What really was taken away was their efficiency in the pick and roll,
both for the role man and for the ball handlers. And I think that
was reflective of the next saying, Okay, you generate good looks off of
the kind of these three man actions, right like usually it's a horn set
the two guards there with one of the big men, We're going to completely
take that away. We're going to kind of cheat over and take away your
pick and roll. And the efficiency just dropped off a cliff. They had
the worst points per possession for role man possessions. It was zero point four
nine. Lens dropped off from one point one five to point eight. Mobley's
if you can believe it's a regular season, Evan Mobley as a rollman average
one point zero nine points per possession. Do you want to take a wild
guess what it was in the playoffs point six seven? It was point zero
eight. He scored one point in five games as a role man, And
like that right there. I think that was the largest point of failure with
the Ka's offense, because what we said all year is if you're going to
have a backcourt of two small guards, the only time you see that work
is when there's a front court playmaker, Like when your offense is really kind
of centered around two guards, you need to have that Draymond Green, that
Mark Gasol, that Lebron James that frees them up in the front court,
and that needed to be Evan Mobley, and he just wasn't ready for that.
Like the pick and roll ballhandler numbers dropped off to like Garland and Mitchell
both weren't as efficiency in those scenarios. But it really broke down, and
I think a lot of that had to deal with, Okay, you can
be creative in the regular season and generate good looks off of those three man
actions, but in the playoffs, one that's really scouted. You need to
have that spacing, and they just didn't have the spacing, and I think
it led to a lot of second guessing and Mobly not performing as well in
those spots and the whole team not performing well in those spots. So given
all that and the two headlining editions where Georgi Yang and of course Max Drews,
they also got Damian Jones. Ty Jerome was floating around on this roster
right now as well. Do you think they did enough to address enough of
their biggest weaknesses slash concerns. I think, given the resources they have,
I'm very happy with this. Like, even prior to the playoffs, Carter
and I kind of did a look ahead to the offseason and okay, who
are your top targets and we were looking at spot track and we're like,
okay, here's the small forwards there were. He is in a lot of
options. None of these guys are really shooters. None of these guys are
in their price range. And then you know, you filter down to the
shooting guard and I'm like, all right, can I find a tall enough
shooting guard that can maybe played three? And Max Struce was that guy.
Max Strus was the guy that both of us said, this is our number
one choice because he gives you the frequency as well as the percentage when it
comes to the three point shots. My second choice was Kellyubray. Carter's was
George Nyang. He's like, if I can't use the mid level exception on
Max Strus, I'd rather just split up get George Niang. So for us
to get both, I think was really encouraging. And then Tie Jerome.
I don't know how much he's going factor into the regular rotation. But I
do think having a third guard that's six five that can shoot, takes good
care of the ball, nice assistant turnover rate. I think that's a helpful
thing to have. And especially yeah, as the nerds would say, he's
got some wiggle to his game. Yeah, And I just feel like this
is the right type of supporting cast that allows you to better evaluate the core.
Right, Like, the core works so well all together last year and
even in that Nick series, like through four games they still had a positive
net rating one all four. Then we're together, But there just wasn't a
lot of options to go to. You know, Isaac o Coral misses a
month before the playoffs with an injury and gets reinjured multiple times. In Game
one, went down with a knee injury and then got elbowed in the head
by Mitchell Robinson. That wasn't helpful. So then you're really going to Carris
Laverte. Ricky Rubio attempted to play Danny greenmants were an absolute disaster, Like
there're just weren't levers to pull. So I feel like they have better spacing
now to at least properly evaluate Okay, can this work? JB. Becker
staff now has levers to pull and options to go to so that you can
better evaluate what he and the coaching staff can do. I just feel like,
even though it's not like problem solved, we fixed everything. You know,
we had the perfect small forward. You don't have that. But I
do think that they're in a much much better position and I think it's going
to lead to them having a much more successful See. Yeah, I was
surprised that their off it felt like, and maybe I'm so far removed and
misremembering that there those bigger transactions weren't lauded more. And I saw some people
first like, oh, that's a lot of money for Max Strus. I
was like, it's a tick above the mid level. Now, like let's
relax. And I think too many people kind of focused on his three point
percentages last year in Miami, which were all over the place, especially in
the playoffs. Just the volume both him and the ang or nine plus attempts
for thirty six minutes basically, and he takes struce, takes tough threes,
and just the threat of that opens up the floor for everyone. So I
thought, and you mentioned this, what would have been their best case outcome
if it wasn't max Strus like this just wasn't They didn't have the resources and
this wasn't the market and everyone could say, well they need like this two
way wing, Like yeah, so to twenty nine other teams basically were twenty
seven other teams, and so I thought I couldn't believe that they were able
to pull off Like with both of them, I would ask, though,
based off what they've done, what is still kind of your your biggest concern
with this roster backup power for it, Like I think George Niang's going to
be the third big functionally like throughout the regular season, but there's going to
be matchups where that's a little bit of an issue, right, especially when
you get to the playoffs. I don't have any concerns about this team in
the regular season, Like they were near the top last year in player games
missed and they did not have a lot of depth. Now they have a
lot of depth. And if you get any sort of positive regression when it
comes to injury luck in an Eastern Conference that seems a lot weaker like Philly
got worse. All the teams kind of around them got a fair bit worse
at least at the top of the East, with maybe the exception of Milwaukee,
but they mostly stood pad. But I think all of that sets them
up well for regular season success. But I still worry in the playoffs.
Okay, George Niang can give you spacing and allow you to play that kind
of one big when you're staggering Mowbli and Allen, but is he going to
get exposed? And importantly too, looking at the way that they lost again
the Knicks, he doesn't help from a rebounding standpoint because after Kevin Love was
basically removed from the rotation, they dropped all the way down to basically last
defensive rebounding position. So some of that's going to need to be The bigs
are going to need to do better. The wing players need to do a
lot better. I just rewatched the Knicks series over the last couple of weeks,
and after my eyes stopped bleeding, I realized, like a lot of
the offensive rebounds that they give gave up. We're actually from the perimeter,
you know, Josh Hart crashing at the shooting guard position, or Jay Barrett,
even Jalen Brunson at times. So they're going to need to collectively get
better at that. But even with all those extra possessions they gave up,
they still had the best defensive rating in the playoffs. I think it was
much more about the offense failing them. But I keep circling back to this
position we've been in the last couple of years, and people are going to
laugh, roll their eyes, but they gotta need Dean Wade to be good
because he's that fourth big that when you put him in there, all of
a sudden, the rebounding numbers are great. He can defend the perimeter,
he can defend the ram, he gives you spacing, and the last couple
of years, like when Dean Wade gets hurt, it really has an impact
on how useful their lineup is. And they really shouldn't be in a position
where Dean Wade matters that much. I think it matters less than it did
last year. But whether it's Dean Wade, George and Nyang or maybe even
Isaiah Mobley, you know, on that two way contract and maybe getting promoted
to the main roster, they're going to need to find something internally to make
those lineups work. But given how many holes they had to fill, and
the limited resources they had. I'm pretty happy with this offseason, is there,
Like I know part of it was Kevin Love left. I can't and
I want to. It definitely hurt them in the playoffs. Like the rebounding
for this team is just all over the place for a team that plays so
many minutes with two bigs. And I think they were like I can't remember
I looked this up, Like at the time, they were like eighth in
defensive rebounding and then like kind of around the middle of this, like after
the Kevin Love leaving, it just like fell off the cliff. It's what,
like, do you is it an actual concern? You're just like,
oh, hey, you even mentioned it. For the playoffs, Oh,
they were still the best defense in the league. Granted it's only one series.
Like they were still just like a top three defense, even with the
rebounding struggles. And so I agree with what you're saying about sort of the
backup for spot. But then I'm almost just like, well, how much
does the rebounding aspect of it matter. I'm definitely more worried about it.
I can Yang get exploited on defense a little bit. I think he's probably
fine against like positionally at least, but like do you like what do you
read into like and we can identify I think you and I even talked about
it, like why they might struggle on the glass, like Mobiley spends so
much time basically as this wing defender that he's not going to be around the
glass as much. But it's like does it does it actual? Like does
it matter? Is it? Are people over blowing those issues on the glass?
Like what? I don't know what to make of it. I think
it's maybe a little overblown, Like I think like the funny thing about that
series is it all just felt because there was such bad offense in that series,
Like even from the next standpoint, like people act like Jalen Brunson was
having a great series yet twenty four and five on a fifty three true shooting
percentage, like he was less efficient than Garland in that series when you look
at it, which it didn't feel that way because every time, you know,
you get that extra position later in games and Brunson hits a three,
it just feels so much bigger. I'm not super concerned that, Like when
I looked at the series, the first couple of games, especially like that
Jared Allen Mitchell Robinson possession battle. A lot of the possessions earlier in the
series were okay, you know, a couple times a game Mitchell Robinson out
muscled him one on one, got the offensive rebound. But later in the
series a lot of it was all right, we're having point of attack breakdowns.
So Jared Allen has to make a decision. Do I give up an
open layup to RJ. Barrett or Josh Hard or do I contest it and
take it myself out of rebound and mobile or Carris Laverte was left one on
one with Mitchell Robinson and they gave up offensive rebounds. So as the series
progressed, there was more and more of those kind of positional and schematic losses
which JB. Bickerstaff. You look at the reporting he's owned up to that
where he says, you know, a lot of our rebounding issues were we
kind of got away from our identity. We had Jared Allen blitzing so far
above the three point line. And it reminded me of twenty seventeen when Tristan
Thompson was outrebounded by Steph Curry because he was spending so much time above the
three point line, and I do think that the Calves one of I think
most of it came down to, you know, personnel not having spacing,
and just individual performances, like sometimes you know, you just don't play well,
and that can kind of sometimes get forgotten when we talk about basketball.
But the one issue that I really had with what JB was doing was I
felt like the Calves almost had too much reverence for Jalen Brunson. I feel
like they got away from their own kind of identity and we're like, all
right, we're going to try to counter what the Knicks are doing. Whereas
they were the better team, the Calves should have been the ones setting the
tone, setting the identity of the series and forcing the next two. Okay,
go beat us one on one. Jalen Brunson, if you win the
series that way, will live with it. And like he didn't have that
great of a series like it When you listen to the discourse, it's almost
like, oh, he killed it against the Cavs and then wasn't as great
against Miami, Whereas when you look at it, he was wildly efficient against
Miami, averaging like thirty three points per game, whereas versus the Cavs.
He's basically chucking, scoring twenty four points per game, right, So it
just goes to show how we kind of take the result and work our way
backwards. The other thing the Cavs did this offseason they resigned Caris Lavert.
Some people were surprised. To other people don't like the amount of money.
I thought it was fine. I thought it was pretty good for them last
year. Actually, he shot the three ball better than I would have expected,
and i'sn't even a lot better defensively than I would have expected as well
too. Is he suddenly at all more important to this team given the circumstances
with Ricky Rubio, you know, taking time to deal with his mental health
good for him? Or is that more of a contract where it's like,
no, this is like kind of a human human trade exception situation. I
do think he is more important now, honestly. Like even prior to the
Ricky news, Carter and I were saying I would rather not play backup point
guard, like I'd rather just stagger Garland and Mitchell. You have one of
them on the court at all times, and then that opens up minutes for
Karros Lavert for mex Rus for icycle Choral for George Nang right, like you
kind of have that weird glut at the three four position, and I think
I just trust like the guards and Caros Lavert. Like Karros Lavert's playmaking often
gets underrated, especially as a pick and roll ball handler. He's a really
really good pick and roll ball handler. And for a team that you know
now has improved spacing for him and has such great bigs to work off of,
I think he is really important, and I think people need to get
over the sticker shock when it comes to these new contracts, like like you
said, that report at sixteen million that he and Scruts are getting, that's
not a whole lot more than the midd level exception, and when you look
at it as a percentage of the cap, which is the only thing that
matters, it is less than Channing Fry got on the Cavs in twenty sixteen
when they won. It's right around that j R. Smith the mon Chumpert
range, which of yeah, yeah, when you put that into context,
that is not a lot. And the CAP's going to rise by five percent
over the next four years, so that's just going to become a smaller and
smaller amount, and I think it reminds me a lot of Jared Allen.
Like when Jared Allen signed his five year, one hundred million dollars deal reportedly,
like people are like, oh, that's a that's a lot of money.
When you look at it now, Jared Allen's barely getting more than like
what the mid level exception is going to be in two years. You look
at the centers that signed for that amount of money, like Yak of Pearl,
Nick Boots Rusive, right, like Matt Struce and cars Leavert signed for
Isaiah's Stewart money, Like it's really like this is it's going to be so
much easier, Like people worry about, oh can the cast keep all four
of these guys together, Garland, Mobley and Allen are going to be making
Jalen Brown money together, and like Donovan Mitchell isn't eligible for the Supermax,
Like it's not as much of a financial crunch as you think it's going to
be. Garland is on a bargain deal when you look at what he can
contribute. It would be different if like two of these guys were approaching their
third contracts, which they're not really yeah, and fun aside or not so
fun aside. We have shirts made that says I'm sorry Jared Allen because we
destroyed that Jared Allen contract at the time, and part of it was because
they had drafted Mobley as well, but it was just like, could not
have been more wrong. But we I don't even want to have to if
I had to listen back to that PODT yes, I wouldn't be able to
sit through that segment that we did. We killed it. I'm scolding you.
I'm scolding you through the camera. So Evan Mobley what Yeah. A
lot of his limitations shine through during that next series, and a good amount
of them felt like they could be chalked up to like him when he was
facing pressure, or just like players who were stronger than him. I saw
earlier this summer he talked about how he had a home gym now, so
we can expect him. I mean, he's going into year three, he's
still like what is he two? Like, he's still young, so he
will get stronger. What else, though, we're you specifically sort of watching
for with him entering this third year on the offensive end, because like,
defensively, he's just it. I picked him as my Defensive Player of the
Year. So if I can get more brownie points from you after shipping on
Jared Allen, I did'll he'll get some brownie points. Maybe if Mobiley starts
fouling a little bit more, he'll get that Defensive Player of the Year.
Yeah. You know, it's funny because you look at those season Mobile had
and and sort of the year. I thought it was encouraging that he was
basically putting up the same production as his rookie year with higher efficiency alongside adding
a piece in Donovan Mitchell, right, Like, I think that goes to
show just how malleable both he and Darius Garland's games are, that they didn't
lose anything adding such a major piece. But then as the year progressed,
JB put more and more on Mobiley's played it as he got more comfortable,
as he got stronger, And you look at the last like, basically since
the start of twenty twenty three, so January first, he was averaging eighteen
points per game on high efficiency. The playmaking numbers were coming up, and
that's part of why I felt so confident going into that Knick series, Like
we identified the areas of concern like I feel like in our series preview,
we hit on every way that the Cavs could lose the series. We just
didn't expect it to be so dramatic. And I think if you play that
series over a bunch of times, it probably is around fifty fifty of who
wins, but I think the majority of the time it goes longer. But
Evan Mobley really struggled in that series. And I know everyone focuses on the
three ball because Okay, that's the only thing that matters in today's game,
but really, like I think the most important thing is the mid range game
for him, Like I would have him watching hours a Batman of Bile footage
because I think if he's operating from the high post, if he's that hub
in the short role, that's where he can really really be effective. And
so often, like a lot of the times where he wasn't playing well and
had that zero point zero eight points per possession in the short role, it
was indecision. It was Mitchell Robinson actually like sagging off of him and saying,
yeah, hit that floater. And there were times where he's kind of
in between the floater and the dunker spot pass that he usually throws to Jared
Allen in those spots with that indecision, all of a sudden, the balls
hitting the back part instead of the rim, right Like. It was just
one of those things where I think he needs to develop more confidence in those
spots, because if you're really respecting him there, then all of a sudden,
his ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the rim
really matters. He's passing in those situations really matters. Having Max Strus as
an option where now you're running a three man action with Garland, Mitchell and
Mobley, and Mobley has that kickout option two maxters, he has the kickout
option to Darius who's playing off all in that spot, and he has the
law to Jared Allen, right Like. I think him performing better in those
spots is the biggest way way he can advance this game because the defense is
already so high up there, and I think he's a good but not great
passer, which I think it's a fair way. I think that's a fair
way to kind of even characterize Bam. But Bam has such a strong understanding
of what he can and can't do and what the right play is. I
think that's exactly where Mobley needs to get you offensively. I think the only
thing I pushed back on is I actually think he's a great passer. When
you were looking at the reds he was making last year, and like the
spacing that's around him during the regular season, and it felt like there's a
lot more like hey, live dribble stuff happening too than it was during his
rookie year. And so I really think with the extra spacing, he's gonna
wind up. If he's not already a great passer, he will get there.
I was surprised. I went back and I was watching a lot of
like some of the elbow stuff in that series against the Knicks. It was
just not pretty, and I'm wondering if he could benefit from being even quicker
when it comes to like if he knows that he's gonna put the ball on
the floor. He shot like twenty two percent on his elbow touches in the
playoffs, after in the regular season he was at like fifty two or whatever
it was, And so I'm watching that and then you had mentioned the floaters
stuff too. It's just so interesting because he shot twelve of seventeen last year
on assisted floaters like where he just caught it and flipped it up there.
It was like whenever he kind of had to take a dribble or if he
had space, and like that extra second, that extra pause, it did
feel like it threw him off. And that's I didn't even watch any of
the floater stuff from the playoff series, So it's interesting that you had said
that, Oh a lot of that was just Mitchell Robinson like kind of just
oh, hey, go ahead and see if you can do that, and
so that I would agree with you, like I can see the outline of
a very crafty mid range game, but at the same time, like you
know, he was sub forty percent, I'm like those turnaround jumpers and like,
there's still such a long way to go there. Then when I watch,
though, the form just feels like it's there and that it's pretty and
this is someone I expect. I don't think and this isn't I'm saying you.
I still don't think people understand how good of a pastor he is.
And I think that while we don't understand necessarily what he is on offense,
I still think he ends up being he's I think it's more likely he's a
great offensive player than not. But I do wonder how you feel about like,
okay, like if he can't like make or be confident like in this
short roll stuff in the playoffs, like maybe when the pressure increases, like
what does that sort of muddy his offensive utility to this team at all?
Just like if I wouldn't say, use the Knick series as this potential stasis
for him, but just like if he goes through those stretches where oh,
if there are more physical guys, he's not able to do the same damage
yet in the short role from the elbows and he's not this really good three
point shooter. Like, how hard does it become to then sort of float
like this two big model. Yeah, I think it's essential for making that
model work, right like, and that's going to be one of the important
things that we find out this season. And you know, it's tricky because
man like Mobley's probably about five years away from his prime, right Like when
you look historically, usually when big s gets like twenty six years old,
that's when it starts to really click from them, and the Cavs are on
an accelerated timeline when it comes to you know, Donnovan Mitchell improving that this
is the best spot for him to win. So you have to kind of
balance not it's not like a Warrior's two timeline thing, because you're talking about
twenty two and a twenty six year old. And I also just hate that
everyone uses the Warriors two timeline thing as an example of like you can't have
vets and young players. Now, that was about the Warriors making bad picks
and guys that just aren't good at basketball. Like, if they draft the
Tyree's, they drafted Hyrs Haliburton, that would have worked really well. If
they drafted Lamella Ball that would have worked really well. Yeah, if they
drafted Franz Wagner, that would have worked really well. Don't excuse the fact
that they made terrible picks like as oh, you can't have young guys and
old guys. But yeah, like I think Mobley's growth there is absolutely essential.
It's essential for making the two big pairing work. It's funny like when
you look at it for the regular season, the offensive rating was better when
both bigs were together than either big individually on their own wild and a lot
of that obviously has to do with their plane more their minutes with Garland and
Mitchell. But like, that's the whole kind of conceit of this team building
thing is we can make these two big works because we have two guards that
work so well offensively together, right, And I think adding someone like Max
Steves is going to be a big difference. You mentioned his ability to hit
contested shots. He was in the fourth percentile of the last two years in
terms of how open is three point shots are, So ninety six percent of
the league is getting better looks than him. You look at like Jetty Osben,
he was in the eighty seven percent dial in terms of open looks.
So either Max Jus is going to start getting more open looks or everybody else
around him is going to start getting more open looks. So I'm very encouraged
by that. But yeah, Mobley's going to have to make this work.
If he's not there as a playmaker and if he needs more time, they're
going to come up short again in the playoffs because they need to have that
front court playmaker and because they don't have the big playmaking wing, it needs
to come from him at the four. I think long term, like you
can question whether or not he and Jared Allen to work, but I think
long term, Mobley has to be a four, like he might close at
the five, But I do think that he is a power forward. I
think that's the way that the game is trending. You look at some of
the power forwards that are coming into the game, like Wemby wants to play
for Chet wants to play the four. The league is getting bigger and bigger,
and the small ball revolution was really about having skill at every position.
Now you have skill in size, which is the way I think this is
going. And even like Jaren Jackson Junior Yannis right like, they're great at
the five, but you still kind of have like that Steven Adams or Brook
Lopez out there to eat those heavier minutes at the five. So Mowbli's growth,
I think is going to be the biggest storyline for the Cavs because I
think if he's able to do even just what he did in the regular season
in the playoffs, that makes a big difference. If he's able to take
a step above that, this is a team that could actually be pretty damn
dangerous. There's and I'm not saying that Mobley will be a better offensive player
than Yannis, but if he doesn't, I guess develop alone in the track
that they're expecting. It does create if you want him to be your four,
sort of a very rigid well of options. Okay, well, who
can be the five where it's like when you think of Yannis, like he
almost needs like brook Lopez makes too much sense next to him, and that's
just not the type of player Jared Allen is. And so I think that's
why it gets so interesting about the two big stuff. The final thing on
Mobli, should we expect him to just like maybe increase his I'll say,
like hub usage, given that Ricky Rubio at least doesn't seem like he's gonna
start the season with the teams like during those one guard lineups, there should
be more opportunity for him. Yeah, well, with our without Ricky Rubio,
that has to be the priority. Like, I think one of the
opportunities for growth from this team and his coaching staff is experimenting more in the
regular season because I think in the regular season last year, especially with all
the injuries they had, but they were just throwing fastball after fastball, right,
Like, let's do what we do really well, and that's going to
get us a lot of regular season wins, whereas teams like Miami as an
example, like people will say they didn't take the regular season seriously. I
don't think that's true. I think what they did in the regular season was
they were empowering different guys that they knew they needed to count on in the
playoffs. So let's take some lumps in the service of development so that we're
better prepared for the playoffs, so we have multiple styles that we can play.
The Kats need to take that approach with the regular season, where yeah,
maybe you lose two more games because you're giving Mobili a lot of playmaking
reps and you're trying to work on him as a hub, but that's going
to help you in the playoffs. I think they're better prepared to play multiple
styles, whereas last year they really only had that fastball. They had one
thing that worked really really well and a few actions off of it, and
when you took away the effectiveness of that pick and role play and kind of
the three van actions they had, it really hurt them. So I think
they found something last year where to start the year, it was Mitchell and
Mowbli a lot of the time, and later as the year progressed, it
became Garland and Mobley, so Mitchell and Allan, which Allan's the better pick
and role player, He's the better fit with donaland Mitchell and Garland and Mowbley
was ridiculous. I think they had about a plus twelve net rating when they
were on the court without Mitchell and Allen. Like that, more than anything,
I think is the core of this team like that, that's the hardened
soul as those two guys together. And I think having Evan Mobile play as
a playmaker in those spots is going to be really interesting. I'm really interesting
to see what Isaaco Cora coming into the second unit with more spacing does for
him. Like if a Coral's playing as the shooting guard, do you use
him a little bit in that Bruce Brown role where he's setting a screen for
Garland. All of a sudden you have Struce, Nyang and Mobile out there.
You know, guys that can kind of space the flour. A little
bit of playmaking around him, get him more rim running opportunities, Like people
forget that over the last hundred games of core shooting, like thirty eight percent
from three he finishes well at the rim. So seeing what he can do
in kind of a more limited roll off the bench with more spacing. I
think it's going to be really interesting. So you're still an Isaac O Coral
believer, then the extension eligible Isaac O Coral. By the way, I'll
say this, I'm a Coral believer. I am concerned that he can't reach
his potential with the Calves, just because you can only develop so many guys
at a time. They have a lot of young guys that they need to
give those developmental reps, and I just feel like the timeline has shifted on
him. I'm a little concerned that he's not going to be able to reach
his potential with the cast But I do think trying to get more juice out
of that is something that they should try to prioritize this here, just you
know, be more informed about what he can or can't do. I would
give him an extension right now, Like if you could get him for cheap,
I would do it because he's still one of the best on ball defenders
in the league. People forget he is the same age as Evan Mobile.
So when people talk about like, okay, like Mobile's offensive development, he
can get better and whatnot. O Coral's getting penalized because he came into the
league a year early and like I said, the three point shot, outside
of that start to the year where he had changed the form on his jumper
and he missed like his first twelve attempts or whatever, he's shooting forty percent
from three. You take it like even further back to February of the previous
season and over a hundred games sample size now thirty eight percent from three.
Like, he's just got to crank the volume up. And I think the
biggest thing that he needs to do is he needs to, as I signed
Mobile homework, to watch bam Acorn needs to watch what Josh Hart does because
he's bigger than Josh Hard and he needs to become kind of that box score
filler where he's going out and giving you other things. He's giving you the
rebounds. He got his steel in block percentage up last year he started becoming
an event defender. I think that's a significant difference. But he's going to
need to start contributing in other ways because he's going to need to find ways
to make the most of those minutes. And it's something he can do.
I'm just a little concerned that, you know, you have so many young
guys like Jurnau will just turn twenty five, Like there's still beat on the
phone there. I feel like he might be the one that kind of gets
lost in the shuffle. Yeah, he's a really useful players, I would
frame it. I'm with you. I don't see the long term theory of
him on this team, in part because I don't know if he'll ever get
his three point volume where it needs to be. And I know, like,
look, his percentage are great, A lot of that's coming from the
corners, and so like if you're not going to hit a high clip from
above the break, there's gonna be limitations there. And I think more than
anything, and I know he was banged up and that's part of why he
became unplayable against the Knicks. Is I'm gonna push back, sorry, because
I mostly agree with you. One of my biggest JB complaints is that he
went away from ocal row in that series. Like I thought o'cre should have
remained the starter. I thought he should have played more. In fact,
he's actually the only CAZZ player that had a positive net rating in that series.
Like I think, especially with how thin they were. He needed to
play more in that series, and they did well in his minutes. It
was just a lack of confidence, obviously in the three point shooting. And
the thing is, like, you're right, the volume needs to go up,
because if he's taking three, three is a game and he's shooting forty
percent on him, teams are going to conceive that one three a game to
take away everybody else, right, Like you gotta get those numbers out.
Those are those are rookie numbers. That's where I was going with it too,
is that you can see there's a difference in the way that defenses guard
him versus I'll use Mark as Smart as an example, who's not really a
good three point shooter, but because the volume is there, and I'm not
saying, of course you'll start chucking him off the dribble, I think Smart's
actually done a better job of eliminating those from his diet, like the fact
that the volume matters, because volume in itself can be a threat. And
I just don't know if he'll ever get there, not even just on this
team. I just don't see it with him as all. And so I'd
agree with you. I didn't even think about yet you should just sign him
to an extension because if he would take like four and fifty two or something
right now, like that becomes an incredible trade asset down the line, given
what he can do on the defensive end. Yeah, and if he hits
and you've locked him in at that Like that was one of my gripes the
first year Lebron came back where Tristan Thompson was extension eligible, It's like,
you need to sign him to an extension right away. And then you know,
he had the breakout season at twenty five, which is the same age
that Jared Allen is now, which is funny to look back at. But
they had to sign them for you know, that five eighty two deal,
whereas you could have got him for a whole lot cheaper if you signed them
before the breakdown. And even just like you said, from a tradable contract
standpoint, like that was the thing that the Cavs didn't even really have in
their arsenal going into this offseason. They had because karros Laver was a free
agent. You know, the biggest contracts they really had was like Ricky at
seven, Dean at at five. Now, all of a sudden, you
have Karros Laverne at sixteen, you have Screws at sixteen, you have George
Nyang at eight, you get a coorro there on fifteen. Like, I
think the way that you have to approach this new CBA is you need to
load up on these contracts and then when you do cross kind of that threshold
where all of a sudden you get all those constraints, you have to sprint
past it. So I want the Cavs to get right up to that threshold
and then as soon as that mobile extension hits, you just sprint right past
it. Your rates a penalty there basically what kind of what the Phoenix Suns
did, because at that point the only way you're going to get better is
by flipping contracts, right Like, Okay, yeah, I have this sixteen
million dollars player, I want to turn him into two eight million dollar players,
right Like, that's what they need to have in their possession. And
I think, you know, signing Acre to an extension, I would love
it. I don't. I don't really foresee it unless he's really kind of
signing a team friendly deal. But I think just from a value standpoint,
both as a trade asset, and you know, potentially for them to keep.
I think there is a real value to them. Mobley is the player
on this team. I'm most fascinated by the player I'm like fascinated by after
him, the most is Darius Garland. I had written this very like brief
outline to you about what's the next frontier for Darius Garland, and coming in
I had expected you to say or I was going to argue, like I
really just want to see the like I see that there can be a better
finisher at the rim here he ticked up his free throw right a little bit.
And then I listened to the podcast that you guys did with Seth part
now and I can't remember whether it was your co host Card or if it
was Seth that said a huge development for him would be can he become more
of this motion shooter away from the ball, because of how that would unlock
even more of this offense. What is the for Darius Garlands, who I
did not pick for all NBA but probably deserved more honorable mention all NBA consideration
than he got. So like that is we talk about baseline, that's another
high baseline to workoff. What is the next frontier for him though, to
you, Yeah, that was Seth and I could not have disagreed more with
him. I think we would have got bogged down if I did. But
I think he's a tremendous offtball player. I tweeted it out after the podcast,
but if you look at kind of like the basketball index, a little
headshot graft or whatever for movement shooters for point guards, in terms of movement
impact, the only one that has more Steph Curry and the only one that
has more volume from the point guard position is Game the Jordan, Poole and
Kyrie, which two of those I'd argue aren't even point guards at this point
in their careers. So Garland is a terrific offtball player. He needs to
crank that ball allume up on those three point attempts though, Like that's the
biggest thing. He is too good of a shooter to only be taking six
a game. I need that to be up at eight, Like I need
that to be at eight and nine. I think that's like you look at
it averaging you know, twenty two and eight last year. If he just
takes like two and a half more threes a game, that's an extra three
points per game on his average pretty easily because he's going to hit at least
one in those attempts that moves the needle. I agree, the finishing at
the rim needs to improve. You look at him this off season, looks
like he's added a lot of muscle. I think that's going to help with
that too. Yeah, Like, I think that's going to help him a
lot, because he just got his ass kicked at the rim all year,
Like it seemed he was getting hit in the face every single time he went
to the rim. We kept tweeting out and became a running joke of how
many times he's going to get in the face because obviously in the first game
Gary Trent Junior tried to poke his eye out and it got targeted ever since
in the year. And I think just him getting more calls at the rim
as a result of his strength, I think it's going to be really helpful
because the reason he's not getting as many calls at the rim, Like you
look at the players that have that many drives to the rim, and I
think only Bradley Beale has a lower free throw rate, Like he's like twenty
percent below the average, where everyone else in that mix. I think it's
because he's trying to make the shot. He's kind of contorting himself the old
Derrick Rose issue, right Whereas now if he's going into guys, that contact
is going to become kind of more evident. And I think also just better
spacing around him is going to give him more kind of hope and finishes at
the rim. So obviously you'd like to see that continue to improve. He
was actually a better finisher at the rim than Donovan Mitchell was at the same
age. So I think getting that three point shooting up and continuing to do
what he already does well at a higher volume, I think that's going to
elevate his standing. I think that can take him from All Star snub to
an All NBA player, And I think here's a lot of degree. I
think he could be the best player on the Kasmic season, or at least
have an argument to be. I could see it. So I didn't know
about the movement impact as a shooter. I never would have guessed his numbers
were that high in those situations that he Definitely I want to see them explore
more of the Mobili Garland connection, where like he gets moving downhill away from
the ball when Mobili has it, I never would have guessed, like,
yeah, you look at the you know, the assisted three point percentage,
like, yeah, it's up there. But when you mentioned volume, so
I'm I'm pretty actually surprised that he was such an impactful, like movement shooter
player. I would not right now. Oh, I don't think you're wrong.
I'm just saying like I never would have guessed the volume was even there
for him to rank. Yeah, so, but the number you mentioned it,
like you want the threes to come up, I don't even care how
they come because he he hit thirty nine percent of his off the dribble threes.
Like, if those are the threes, he's gonna take two more game
of there. I think people overstate, well, yeah, like, what's
it gonna matter if this guy takes two more three point attempts per game.
There's a player where it can make a meaningful difference, And Darius Garland's one
of those players because he's already so good at it, and especially you look
at last year, like the only shooters they had were Garland and Mitchell.
And like when people complain, like sometimes people will say, oh, you
know, JB. Picker stuff. There's no creativity in the offense. They
need to be more creative. I think the fact that you had a top
seven offense with only two shooters and you were the most efficient team when it
came on on points per possession off of cuts and the second in frequency off
of cuts, like that's generating a lot of movement in creative ways because you
don't have spacing. But that's something that can be taken away in the playoffs.
So that's a feather in his camp. But to his critics point,
I do think now it has to evolve. You have Max Ruths, you
have George Gann, you have to Hie Drum, you have more guys that
you can get more creative. Max Struths can run a pick and roll,
especially like off a secondary reaction. That'd be great to see. You have
these great three man actions. Now I want to see on the week side,
those two other guys be involved in the play somehow, like being in
position to relocate it and leverage what the primary action is going to be.
I want to see growth from the offense because now I think that they're in
a better position to do it. But I totally agree man like Garland needs
to take more threats. Like even when you look at like the thirty plus
feet range right like kind of like that deep Steph cour range, he's at
forty percent there too. He should be taking more shots. It should be
more pull ups. I want to see him continue to get those off ball
reps, especially in kind of two men game with Evan mobile. Maybe Carris
laverts out there as a pick and roll ball handler and you have Garland relocating
off of a Spain action or something like that. I just want to see
him continue to grow his game, because I really do think he is right
in that Steph mold of point guards that are so good on and off ball
that you can put any type of talent around them. Like I just think
from a team building standpoint, he is so malleable. It really like it's
him, it's staff, it's haliburn, like these guys that just work well
with any combination of players. And I think that that's a really special thing
to have the other aspect of this team that receives so much focus. And
I'm actually kind of shocked at it took us forty five plus minutes to get
here. Is okay? You have the two bigs and now you have two
small guards. And so what was just your general impression of the year one
Donovan Mitchell experience and what are you looking at him? And then of course
the dynamic with Garland. What are you watching for most closely heading into year
two of it? Yeah, I mean it's obviously you know, you have
two guards like six three in below, that's always going to be a storyline
and that's would max everybody in that situation they see guard sixty three six four
and under there, they're all about it, of course, and this is
going to be a real test, right Like people kind of say it like
as a negative thing, like, oh, you know, they have a
decision to make with Donna Mitchell. Like I think it goes both ways,
right, Like I think in today's NBA you constantly like you're collaborating with players
on your team. You're you're involving them as partners in that process. And
like when you look at Donna and Mitchell from a team building standpoint, it's
interesting because he's not a talented enough playmaker to play the point guard position.
So that means, with very few exceptions, he's going to be playing with
another small guard. So if you're going to make Donna and Mitchell work with
a point guard, You're probably going to need to have two bigs to cover
for that, or two good rim protectors to have that. So in theory,
the Cavs should be the kind of perfect fit for him, but you
know, they're going to have to prove this year that they're on the right
path to contention and that they're the best fit for winning for him, And
he's going to have to prove to them that you know, this can work,
this two guard pairing can work, because the guys are going to have
a decision to make two right, Like it's not a one way street there.
But I am impressed by just how bought and Donna Mitchell was like right,
you look even at the summer, like he's constantly working, organizing workouts
with teammates, having JB over to his house to study film. JB said
that he kind of gave him a list of things that he wanted Mitchell to
work on in this SAW season and that in their workouts together, just the
two of them, like he knocked out of the park, Like he's completely
bought into what the kaz are doing. And as long as Donna Mitchell is
completely bought in. If at the end of the season they come up well
short again and they're not the best position to contend, you know, Okay,
maybe you have to look on the trademarket and figure out what's going on.
But I do think that this can really work. I think the addition
of Max Jersey and shooting around them is going to make this pairing really work.
And the fact that Mitchell was able to come in have his best season
of his career is by far his most efficient season without taking away anything from
Garland. While Mobley was still able to blossom into an eighteen point per game
player down the second half of the season, and when Mowbley was averaging eighteen,
Alan's point per game went up as well. He was a fifteen point
per game player. Well, Mitchell was getting twenty six and Garland was getting
twenty two and Mowbli's getting eighteen, Like they were getting so much meat off
the bone when it came to those four together, and I really just feel
like it came down to improve in the supporting cast around them. And if
that's not enough, you're gonna have to evaluate, Okay, does a change
need to be made in the backcourt. Does the change need to be made
with the big man pairing. I don't think so, but you have to
be open to that as a possibility. I was surprised when because you mentioned
I think the evaluation is important and that there will be some kind of It's
not either or to me, and I'm like, these guys are still so
young. You've said all their ages a couple of times on the pod that
next season could not go well and you can still believe in it. But
I was surprised. And it was Tim Bontemps when he had the little like
monologue on the Hoop Collective about how moved on Ivan Mitchell right now. I
was, I understand if you're gonna take the pessimist view and you think that
he really wants to end up so and so in Miami or New York or
something. But I'm just like, you have to see this through for another
year, because one, I don't actually think it's trade value is that much
less if you wait a year, if you even if you even get to
that point and you're so good that like, if things break right, you
could come out of the East, you could this team could win the title.
Like that is that is, I don't know if it's not a likely
possibility, but it's a legitimate possibility. So I was just surprised that him
is specifically saying like, oh, you would need to make this decision now,
and it's like, I just don't think you do. Yeah, Like
his full premise, like if you listen to the whole clip is I think
the Cats are going to lose in the first round again, and if they
do, Dono Mitchell's probably going to wand out. And I'm like, yeah,
that's probably then, Like if that's the way this goes, yeah,
Like I don't think that that's an unreasonable take. But just like last year,
I said, even though they have all the kind of like marketings of
a contender, they're not a contender. I think this is the first year
where they're kind of in that dumb course mix. Like I still think they're
probably going to take an up or lump, like that's the way this stuff
works. But I do think they're at the point where they just they can't
get embarrassed in a series, like they need to go out, they need
to be competitively against the top teams in the East. They need to win
around I think that they have a shot at being a conference finals team,
but large part of that's going to be how well they play in the regular
season, Right like if they get up to the two seed, which I
mean if if that egregious Joel em beat offensive foul doesn't get called back and
he fouls out of the game, the Kays are the three seeds. They
would have had the tiebreaker over Philly, they would have had enough wins to
get there, and you know, they would have made the second round,
but just because they would have beat the Brooklyn Nets, because everyone would have
beat the Brooklyn Nets, they were not a good team. That's the trade
deadline. If they would have won a round and got embarrassed in the second
round, or even if they were competitive in the second round because you know
it's the better matchup, or whatever the case may be, all of the
same flaws that got exposed were still there. All the work that needed to
be done was still there. So in some ways, it was almost great
that the worst case scenario came to pass where and it wasn't even like a
Donovan Mitchell plays great and everyone else plays poorly. It's not a lebron In
twenty eight team type of scenario, Mitchell played terribly Like, if Mitchell played
even just where he was at in the regular season, they win that series.
If Mobily played to where he was at in the regular season, they
win that series. Right. It's just one of those spots where there's so
many points of failure that it forces every single person on the team to look
inward and look at where they can improve internally. The front office approached the
situation with the utmost seriousness and went out and really tried to get as many
pieces as they could and improve the team as much as they could. JD
has talked about how he needs to be better. So I do think that
they're on the right footing to have a much better season this year. If
the Calves are the ones that are ultimately like, there's nothing going on with
Donovan Mitchell or Jerry Allen or Devistard, if they're the ones calling the shots
here. From like a front office perspective, what is the dynamic of this
team that's under more scrutiny? Is it the dual bigs or is it the
dual smaller guards. I think it's the dual biggs. It's, you know,
a battle I've been fighting, but I think that's kind of the I
think that would be the first domino because in all honestly, I think Dona
Mitchell next summer is signing a long extension. I think you look at historically
that's usually the way it goes with stars, and then maybe like two years
later you're looking at, Okay, the same kind of trade conversation that Utah
on in. But stars just don't get free agency. They don't turn down
the money. And I think that this is like, this is such a
good situation for him, and like as much attention as the next get.
You listen to Ian Begley and Zach Low, they did kind of like a
Knicks trade target and Mitchell didn't come up. Actually, Mitchell did come up
because Begley said, they've moved on from Donna Mitchell and they're targeting wings and
bigs. They're going after be honest, they're going after Joel and b They're
going after Ogmaobi, They're going after pass Galcyackham right like, and if they
blow their wad on trade asses, like if they trade for one of these
guys, they're not going to have the assets to get don Van Mitchell there.
And Mitchell like he's not going to go to Brooklyn. Brooklyn's not a
good team. Like if Mitchell cares more about where he's playing than how good
it is and how like whether or not that's a winning team, then that's
not someone who want to build around. And I don't think that's the case.
Like even in like pessimistic Cleveland reporting, like the day after they lost
to the Knicks, Jason Lloyd talked about basically, Oh, they're going to
have to figure things out. He's going to need a sign extension or he'll
get traded the next summer. He said his number one priority is winning,
So I have no reason to doubt that. I have no reason to doubt
his commitment. And for all those reasons, I think the Biggs are going
to be kind of the point that's most scrutinized. So like even if they're
able to, you know, like if they have to reevaluate and say,
all right, let's go get ourselves as stretch vibe, let's go find a
way to get Miles Turner as an example, Like maybe they go that route,
but I think Jared Allen is a more talented offensive player than it gets
credit for. That pairing has been so good. Their rookie year. It
was so good the second year together, and the offensive rating was actually good
with the two of them together last year. And the thing I always keep
in mind is this is the worst that pairing is going to be offensively,
like from a skill development standpoint, As Mobile gets better and as Jared Allen
gets better, because now he's starting to enter his physical prime, it's going
to become easier. As Garland gets better, like he's twenty three years old.
People forget he's literally a year old in an animod. As he gets
better, it's going to get easier. As Don Mitchell gets better, it's
going to get easier. Is the supporting cast gets better, It's going to
get easier. So I'm still a believer it can work. But I think
that that is the part that gets danize and changed up. If they do
need to pull the trigger on a trade or maybe you know, Alan elevates
himself to the point where he can be part of another consolidation trade to get
a star wing and they get like a Jonas or a Steven Adams type,
just k mit it eat or at the center position, because you can do
that. Like obviously wings matter more, But I just don't think the type
of wings that the cas would trade Alan for are going to be available.
Yeah, I would agree with everything you said, And I think it's also
fair to say that it should be the bigs that are under more scrutiny because
that just involves Evan Mobile. And I still think he's like the single most
important player to the franchise. And I think it's just Alan is way more
skilled on offense. You're right, Like he can decision make more and he
moves really well off the ball, and there's like that, Like the chemistry
with Evan Mobley is great. Just the absence, just functionally of that one
thing. If if Mobile doesn't have a mid range game or a three point
shot, and then Alan doesn't have either of those, that's what makes it
so tough. And so I think in theory you can approximate Jared Allen and
more with a lesser player than you can any of the other three in Mobwi
and Garland and Mitchell. Uh this is you mentioned him earlier in this podcast.
Do you have Dean Wade optimism for this year like his last year?
Very much? He was just so injured. He had even recently talked about
how Kevin Love leaving impacted him as well. Where are you at with him
and what type of role should we expect him to have out the gate.
I still have a little bit of concern. I think he said he's at
about eighty percent range of motion in his shoulder, like he doesn't have the
hitch when he's shooting eighty percent. Yeah, that seems concerning. Yeah,
like he doesn't have the hitch in it, but he can't kind of go
like all the way back or something like that with his you know, collar
bone getting dislocated last year, which again, you play the Toronto Raptors,
you leave with injuries and it's what it is. I'm hopefully that's not the
case now when Nick Nurse is gone. But yeah, like I have some
optimism just because like when he was healthy, he's kind of giving them that
grant with Lilliam's type roll right like that that three to four can play that
small ball four stretches the floor. While he improved as a movement shooter,
he started shooting his back. He's got his confidence back there, so hopefully
it can help. But I don't expect him to be in the opening night
rotation. I think George Niang's going to kind of take that role. Like
I think obviously starting five is the core forward Strews and you got Lavert a
core row and Yang that would be kind of my guest for the eighth and
then it's all a matter of maybe matchups of whether you go to a Dean
Wade or you go to a Damian Jones, or you go to the Taie
Jerome, Like I think that that's kind of the way that they would approach
it. So still have some optimism, but it wouldn't surprise me if another
team's just like, Okay, we're going to take the chance of it,
like Brooklyn where we got enough old guys, we're gonna move Royce O'Neil,
Like give Dona Mitchell's best friend in the league back and hast give another wing,
Like I want them to find Eric pash Gal want that too? You
want why why not? Man? So I can see something like that happening.
But and like when he's right, he actually is a helpful player,
Like that's a great player development story for the Cavs, getting him from an
undrafted player to someone that you know earned a second contract. You you listen
to Windhorst say yeah, like he's got value on the tripe marketing teams want
the in wait. That's a successful story, and I hope that you can
provide that value for the Cavs. CAVSDNT seemed elated that they got Emny Bates
at number forty nine. I always forget, I always forget he's on the
team. Do you have any thoughts general impressions about he's not going to be
a factor this year? But have you, you know, put any time
into thinking about like what he could become or how intriguing he might actually be.
Have I put thought into a six ten wing that shoots the ship on
the ball and what he could be faking draws very frequently Michael Porter Junior comparisons,
and after watching Michael Porter Junior in the playoff, that's like, oh
man, I'm more into Amani than I was at the draft after Summer League,
because one of the things he talked about was, you know, like
just how weird the college situation was for him, Like at Memphis he has
put into a point guard role, which he wasn't and then you know,
Eastern Michigan was just kind of a weird situation where there wasn't a lot of
talent there and he's taking every single shot. He talked about the pressure that
he was kind of put under with the spotlight being on him, you know,
the next Kevin Durant and all that stuff, and he talked about how
going to therapy really helped him out it, and he's in a better headspace
now. And I think just the fact that he got so much better as
Summer League went on and was playing like a role and he was the shot
selection was getting better. He was making kind of right team plays like that
was two weeks after the draft and just already working with Mike Garty. He
started to see that growth there. So I think a full year working with
Garritty with the Charge obviously having the Charge now in Cleveland, and these guys
being able to practice together, I think that's going to be really, really
helpful. And it wouldn't surprise me. You know, you have an injury
or two, Let's get him up here. That's the purpose of a two
way contract, right Like, let's get him up here. Let's give him
a few reps in games. Let's see what he can do as a spot
up shooter. I think the shooting talent is obviously very real, and if
he can just kind of adjust the playing team ball. There's going to be
a spot for him, and that's the right type of upside swing. Like
at pick forty seven, having a guy like even become a rotation player is
such an outlier and such a win that when you get someone that you know
has real talent at real upside, that's it's an exciting possibility and I'm definitely
going to end up watching a lot of charge games that, especially with Craig
Porter Junior there too. Oh Matt, I'm all over Craig Porter Junior being
the next Eric White. I'm I am telling you of all the two way
guys, like as excited as I am about Bates, Craig Porter Jr.
Is going to be a dude. That guy is the next Eric White.
I could not be more excited for him. I think he's going to be
the backup point guard of the future. I like Lisiah Mobley as well as
kind of like a poor man's Al Horford, Like, I think they've done
a really good job kind of finding value in the margins with these guys and
finding interesting prospects. On that note of an ode to Craig Porter Junior,
are you ready for the cookie Cutter portions. What's the ten man rotation look
like for this team at full strength? Yeah, well I minus Rubio.
I don't really know how to handle that. Yeah, so starting five,
Okoro, Lavert will put that Lavert will be six man, but Lavert Okoro
George mean, after that, I would guess he and Wade and tiderome like.
I don't know what's going to happen with Ricky, So maybe you put
Ricky slash TI Drome, but I think that's probably the ten guy. I
don't know if Damian Jones is gonna like anything you just said no, And
who knows, Maybe he's the next Miles Turner. I mean, he shot
like seventy percent from three last year, another Vanderbilt guy, so I've seen
a lot of him in Garland working out together, and apparently he's really worked
on that corner three. So who knows. Maybe you got to go there,
But at the very least I feel a lot better about him getting minutes.
If there's an injury to the bigs that it did about Robin Lopez,
do you expect their preferred crunch time unit to just be there starting five or
could you see some fuxing and fiddling based on matchups with that Max Strew spot.
Specifically, I expect it to be the starting five, but it might
be matchup to pen him. Like the funny thing is stress played like twenty
seven percent of his minutes a power forward for the for the heat. Like,
so that's weird with like the Jimmy Butler stuff where it's like Jimmy might
have been the nominal four and a lot of those yeah yeah, Like it's
it's such kind of a weird spot that I could almost see them maybe doing
that with Isaac o Coral, right, Like, if you need a point
of attack defender out there that's not Garland or Mitchell, maybe you need to
have a core out there in those closing minutes. And I don't know if
that would be instead of Strew's, if that would be instead of Jared Allen
and you're closing with Evan Mobley at the five with Screws and Ocoro is the
front court. H it's a little small, but you know that's very mobile
and very switchy, So that might be a direction that they go. So
I think it's gonna be matchup dependent, but I would I would expect it
to be the starters, and I think for the most part in the regular
season, this is a team that's well built to kick ass in the regular
season. So the closing lineup might be Taie Jerome Isaaco, Corol Carouse,
Lavern and Dabian Jones. Is there a weirdo, oddball, quirky lineup you
would like to see them try? Ah, I'd like to see garland O,
Corot, Ruce Niang and Mobili as kind of like a second unit lineup.
I just it was something they were doing towards the end of the season
where they had a cool playing it as a shooting garden and screening more for
the guards. There was a win over the heat where basically they just kind
of spanned that at the end of the game and Okoro got to lay up
here, he got free froze and just kind of killed them as the roller
at the two. I'd like to see that, especially with the playmaking of
Mobili. If he's kind of high post option and you have a cool cutting
you have Garland playing off of them and spaces around them. I think that
could be a fun second unit lineup. So mine doesn't have a puncher's chance
in hell of ever happening and I thought a lot about it where I wanted
to see Mobili as the primary playmaker and I'm like, oh, I could
fit Donovan Mitchell into here, like he's not too much of a point guard,
but I decided to leave him off, and I want to see Mobili
with Niang Strews, Dean Wade is Isaaca Coro. I don't want any bones.
I don't want to leave anything to chance. I want Mobili running the
show. I don't think that's going to happen. I don't think there's a
chance and hell that you even get a minute of that. But that would
be fun, that would be very interesting, and that would probably speak to
a level of development from isaacal Coral. That will be exciting because he's talked
about many times it's an adjustment for him to not have the ball in his
hands. So who knows, maybe him at point guarda along with Evan Mobley
is exactly what the doctor ordered. They're over under as we record. This
is fifty point five, and they are one of the teams where it's proof
that Vegas does a really good job I think with their lines for most teams,
and this would be one of those teams or would you hit the over
under on that? And where do you see them stacking up in the larger
context of the East. Yeah, I think they're going to be in the
two three mix in the Eastern Conference. I think Milwaukee's probably the one seed,
and then it just comes down to how healthy is Boston and how seriously
do they take the regular season? But obviously Philly took a big step back.
I think the Knicks are going to be good, but I don't think
they're going to be a better regular season team than the cast. Again,
I do not say anything about like even close to that on Twitter or else.
Knicks fans will be incredibly angry and my mentions, Yeah, yeah,
it's going to be Mitchell Robinsons, their dad and all that stuff. Yeah,
congrats, congrats on your one shining moment. I think there. I
think the Knicks are arching a team that's set up well for long term with
success. And I think you know, the Cats are going to have multiple
playoff series with them. I think the cast count levels just higher, especially
in the regular season, so I think they'll be in that two three mix.
I would slam the over, Like I said, they got fifty one
last year. They were one among one of the most injured teams in the
league last year. They're a lot deeper, They're going to get better.
He's got worse around them. I'd slam the over there. If Miami doesn't
get Dame, which maybe they do, I think everyone expects them too.
But if Miami doesn't get Day but almost feels like three is the Cows's floor
in that scenario in this Eastern Conference, I'll give you a little bit spicier.
I don't think Miami's a home court team even with Dame, because you
know, they're not a team that takes the regular season like incredibly seriously.
Dame misses a lot of time. Jimmy misses a lot of time. Dame
hasn't played off ball in a very long time. He's going to need to
do a little bit of that playing with Jimmy Butler. Jimmy Butler hasn't played
off ball. There's going to be growing pains there. And when you look
at like spacing around them. So let's say Dame's got the ball and they
traded Tyler Hero and Duncan Robinson four Dame. Okay, so you lost gave
Vince, you lost Drews, you lost hero. You lost Duncan Robinson in
terms of spacers, and you're counting on low volume Josh Richardson and like Caleb
Martin to be your spaces. Like, I think that's a team that's going
to be a pain in the ass in the playoffs. But I think,
you know, maybe a five seed in the regular season. I've not gone
through it yet. I will say the Calves are one of two teams and
I'm sure he gets the other one I'm considering to pick to come out of
the East this year. Like, that's how high I am on them,
and I think with the right turn from Mobli like it just this team could
be a bear, an absolute an absolute monster. Is there anything or anyone
I did not ask about that you think we need to discuss? No,
I think we were pretty thorough here. I'll kind of change this up and
just kind of address what you're saying of like they could come out of the
East. You still gotta learn the lessons from the Lebron era, which is,
you know, the best player really does matter. And I think the
Calves can make DCF. But Janna still exists and that's a particularly interesting matchup
there, and I just can help but worry. It's like an Atlanta Hawks
thing of like this great team that gets to the regular season and then all
of a sudden you have that problem to solve. And I think that's going
to be a fascinating part of the cast team building is I don't know if
there's a top five player on this roster, but can you make that up
in the aggregate? Can you have you know, Mobile be a top fifteen
player, Garland and Mitchell both top twenty five yearn Allen top ten center and
enough help around them that you're able to win that way, or can Mobili
elevate his game where he does get into that conversation right like, they need
to find that path, whether it's in the aggregate or whether it's a Mobile
development this season. Though as much as I think Mobile is going to improve,
I think the biggest leap, the most meaningful leap they're going to get,
is from Darius Garland. I really think that he's going to take a
very significant leap and if that's coupled with Evan Mobley kind of taking that first
like mini leap they saw Garland take two years ago when here's a cass best
player and led them in forty five wins, you see kind of like first
leap of Okay, I'm I'm finding footing them finding my voice in the NBA.
You couple those two together, and I think the Eastern Conference Finals running
is definitely a possibility for this team. I think what's most intriguing about a
Cav's coming out of the East scenario is how, yeah, they might not
have the top five or even the top ten player like you said, but
they're so comprehensively good. And if Mobiley is like you know, he shot
I think it was like forty three percent on pull up two's last year.
If he's like a forty four percent mid range shooter, like, they might
be the team with the fewest weaknesses in the East because of what they did
in the offseason. And that is appealing to me because even with Milwaukee,
we've seen the fatal flaw Drew Holiday shot selection in the playoffs, Like,
yeah, he'll hit those step backs in the regular season, not during the
playoffs. Middleton's knee is a big deal. And then just like Jannis has
his own limitations, So like if Evan Mobley's hit more of his mid range
jumpers than Jannis is, like that that's just so meaningful. But I understand
what you're saying, where it's like, yes, the best player in a
series matters, and the Calves are less likely to have that then the Bucks
because Jannis exists, But there might be so they might be good enough that
they're in the position where weirdness happens they can get through, right, Like,
we see that as much as we discussed these teams on paper, shit
happens. Like Milwaukee's lost in the first round a couple of times now,
right, Like, and you know, honestly, do really is losing the
first round or win the championship? Yeah, like it's possible. They don't
even go that round. Like maybe they played Boston who they had Boston's number
last year, Like they played Boston really well, they're about to have it
again too, because Boston is not built to defend Jannis anymore. They just
decided that wasn't like a you know, let's get Chris Stops instead of having
Marcus Smart help out with that. I think Boston got worse and now you
lost your best point of attacker and playmaker, and that's not a good thing
for a team you already didn't match up well against. The cow because Darius
Garland Donno Mitchell is a handful, So I'm interested to see how that matchup
goes. But like maybe that's if that's the conference finals. That's a team
that's beat themselves a lot of times, Like they should have never lost to
the Warriors. Yeah, Jason Katum had a shoulder injury, of course,
you know, like when the Warriors when there's usually an injury on the other
side. But like that's a that's a team that you guys go out and
beat themselves, Like that's why they almost lost to Miami the year before,
and that's why they lost to Miami this year. They go out and they
beat themselves. So if the Calves stop beating themselves, they're going to be
in a much better position. Justin thank you for this as always, you
were so generous with your time and insight. Are you able to tell our
listeners where they can find you and all the great work that you do.
Absolutely wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can find the Chase Down Podcast.
We're on the Calf's YouTube channel. You should go live once a week
in the offseason, twice a week in the regular season. Just subscribe on
your favorite podcast platform. We're there too, and like Dan said, you
can find on Twitter at Kasanada. Twitter's mamma called it Twitter, So I'll
Twitter and you can find the links to both his Twitter and the Chase Down
Podcast podcast. It will be in our description. So I highly recommend subscribing
to those guys that do a great job. Thank you so much again,
Justin And as you know by now, I will be pestering you again in
the future. Hell yeah, you better. I'm going to hold it today