Welcome to the Crown and Anchor Greyhounds. This is Richmond Till We Die,
a conversation about the Apple TV Plus show ted Lasso, where we explore the
characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us
laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts
of our hearts the next. I'm Christian and I'm waiving the week like nobody's
business. I'm Brett and my brackets are already busted, but I am so
excited to introduce our guests today. Eric Garcia. Eric Garcia is a Washington,
DC based journalist focused on politics and policy, and is currently the senior
Washington correspondent for a little outlet you may have heard of called The Independent.
Yes, that the Independent. He also works as a columnist for MSNBC and
makes regular appearances on radio and television. Previously, Eric has held positions at
The Washington Post, The Hill, Roll Call, National Journal, and market
Watch. Eric is also the author of a book titled We're Not Broken,
Changing the Autism Conversation. It was released back in August twenty twenty one.
In the book, Eric weaves his own story together with that of other autistic
individuals, to discuss the social and policy gaps that exist in supporting those on
the spectrum, and to shed light on what it's like to be autistic in
America. In addition to his work in political reporting and writing, Eric is
a huge fan of Ted Lasso and University of North Carolina basketball, which is
how we connected with him on Twitter. So we invited him on the show
to chat about college basketball and Ted Lasso, particularly the parallels between Ted's character
and the real life iconic men's college basketball coaches Dean Smith and Roy Williams.
So Greyhounds please join us as we welcome Eric Garcia to the podcast. Asked,
we're so glad you're here. Eric, Hey, thank you very much.
So let's jump in first with the thing that brought us all together,
Ted Lasso. You're a fan of the show. Yeah, I did you
decide to start watching Ted Lasso? And what hooked you in and kept you
there? I think? I mean, I think everybody already started watching it
doing the pandemic. I mean, but like one of my really good friends
said, I just kept on tweeting about Ted Lasso and then like I think
I was just like I was looking for a shot. I just finished writing
my book and I had some free time, and I was just like,
I need, I need a show to watch. Then, like everybody told
me, watched ted Lasso, watched ted Lasso, watched ted Lasso. So
I watched the first season in like twenty twenty one, like spring of twenty
twenty one, and I just got hooked. I think it was just the
writing was really great. It was funny, it was it was it was
also very lighthearted. I remember you. I mean this was during the depths
of the pandemic, and you know you. I think people just wanted uh
some you know, comfort food television. Um, I remember some. But
he's saying that, like food television really took off after nine to eleven.
Like people really just wants whenever there's something terrible in the world, people just
wants something really comforting. And I think that was what ted Lasso was for
a lot of people. Yeah, we started the pandemic with Tiger King and
then we ended less. So Yeah, in addition to being done with your
book and having more time because of that, one of the things that stopped
early in the pandemic for a while, we're sporting events, and one of
our sporting events to get knocked off the calendar were the NCAA basketball conference tournaments
and an NCAA basketball tournament. You're a big fan, and so we did
want to bring you on to talk about that and some of the connections with
the show a bit. So your expertise in fandom is with the University of
North Carolina tar Heels. Can you paint a picture for people who are not
college basketball fans what it's like to be a basketball fan of North Carolina in
general ACC basketball, the conference therein and then specifically Tobacco Road, that area
of North Carolina the UNC is located in. Yeah, I mean, so
I should say I was a transfer student to the university with Carolina. I
grew up in California, but I was born in Chicago. And the thing
that was said, so I was a baby when the bulls were you know,
we're taking off. Like actually, there's a photo of the like my
dad's business was doing like a charity golf tournament or something like that, and
like there's a picture of me with Michael Jordan, like when I was like
nine months and Charles Berkeley actually hit on my mom that night in front of
my dad. I feel like, I feel like Chuck is one of the
only people who can get away with doing that. But so there was Dad.
But then I transferred to school because I went to community college first,
and then I transferred the University of North Carolina. And initially I didn't put
two in to together and realize that that was where Michael went to school.
But like I realized that afterward and I was like, oh, yeah,
Tar Hills and like, so like I'm a Yankee, you know more Chicago.
I went to call a group in California. But you kind of don't.
You kind of get indoctrinated early on when it comes to North Carolina basketball.
You learn it was funny. It's funny because weirdly enough, when I
was at CHAT, when I was in Chapel Hill, when I was a
student, Yeah, people are like, yeah, it's cool. Then Michael
went here, but you hear more about Dean Smith, hear more about Roy
Williams and Bill Guthridge, and you hear very much about that kind of Caroline
away and you learn, of course, to hate Duke and you learned that
like nobody really cares about NC state And you learn and then you know that
whole tobacco road. Uh you know, as my old professor like said,
said, like the joke was, you know, of course you know the
tobacco road because tobacco crops are are were planted there for a long time.
Even though tobacco is not as big as it used to be, we get
most of our some of the countries now, it's that those rivalries still exist.
It's very much the way that I've always seen that people always say it
is that like particularly in North Carolina. I'm speaking from North Carolina and Virginia
here because that's where the ACC for the longest time was before it expanded to
like Florida and now like you know, Mada's Notre Dame as part of the
sec which I don't understand, but like to me, the ACC in particularly
in North Carolina, it's like it's like the tar heels that those are like
the blue bloods of the universe of the state of North Carolina. These are
the people who founded the state. Like I remember, I would meet people
who like their families go back to the founding of the state when I would
go when I would when I was at school, and then like you had
NC State and those were working class kids, those were farm kids. Those
were kids were who or who would grow up to Veginia be veterinarians or engineers
or or farmers in a world. And then you have um you have way
Forest University, which is it was founded by you know, missionaries, and
it's very very provincial. And then all out of nowhere you have Duke,
which is very much I'm trying to be as objective about Duke as possible,
but it's very much aspired to be for a long time, you know,
an Ivy League school in the South. But then even though I'd argue Vanderbilt
is more of an Ivy League in the South than Duke is, like,
you know, really in a lot of ways, it was coach k and
it was Miski. As much as I don't liked in then it as much
as I hate to give the devil who's d no pun intended. He only
needed a school that you wanted to go to. So and then of course
up top you got University of Virginia, which was the second public university founded
in the in the in the in the country. Uh, you know,
UNC was of course the first, but it depending on if you ask people
from William and mary there's a dispute there. But but but so very much
it is. It's very at least what I how I viewed the ACC is
that it was very insular and very and I was going to school when this
was started a change, like Maryland left the ACC when I was when I
was a student, It's this very insular kind of environment. It's like there's
this region from like Maryland to Virginia and North Carolina to part of South Carolina
that just like encompasses the ACC to me, even though there are other other
schools like Florida State. So it's this very insular community. And so coming
in as a Yankee from somebody who didn't really focus on on college sports,
it was just a fascinating culture. And like I remember in twenty sixteen,
again you know you talked about politics. I remember in twenty sixteen when North
Carolina banned the bathroom band bathroom bill band, right, if you remember,
one of the things that happened was the ACC pulled out in the NCAA pulled
out in North Carolina. And I remember telling my friends. I was living
in Washington, DC at the time, I was working in a newspaper.
I said Roy Cooper, the Democrat who was wonning for governor has just won
the election. I was like, because people cut I cut class to watch
basketball, you know when I'm working nowadays, like I'll have a monitor on
to watch ACC basketball. It is very much a religion. And who you
pick as your team, even if you don't go to that school very much,
I think says something about you as a person. I made the analogy
for people who don't understand soccer and other countries that the closest analogs are SEC
football in ACC basketball because it's the identity that people take on and in the
ACC, especially when we talk about tobacco road. Also the proximity. You
have the academic triangle of schools. How I was almost going to say teams,
but it really is schools. You have UNC, and you have Duke,
and you have I think is NCCA. Yeah yeah, And so there
are only none of them are more than twenty five miles away from each other.
And then you also have Wake Forest there in close proximity. And so
as you can imagine not only the big feelings that arise, but then also
the proximity makes things hot. They'd like to attend a North Carolina basketball game
when they play one of their rivals. Oh, I mean it is.
I mean I literally put it this way. I lived in Washington. D
CEO's an intern in Washington. Uh, right after they announced the killing of
Osavin Laden and like, uh, you know, there are people all in
front of the White House celebrated for some reason. Somebody brought a big US
flag, like and people just started celebrating. And I've been in North Carolina
when UNC beats Duke, and I've been in Chapel Hill. Hands down,
it's a bigger frenzy. In Chapel Hill. There's a strength. There's a
drag called Franklin Street, Like every college town has that drag. People like
couches on fire, like jerseys on fire. You see people jumping in out
of trees. You see people for some reason somebody like you'll see people blowing
volas. You know, it's just it is absolute chaos in Mayhem. And
it's one of those things where it's this kind of collective frenzy. And it's
funny because like I spent a lot of time also in my day job covering
Trump rallies, and I've what I've told people and when I talked to students
is I'm like, it's very similar. It's this herd mentality, it's this
tribal mentality, and I think that it's something very different from even pro sports,
you know, in America, at least because pro sports in America it's
tied very much the owners and the whims and you know, and it's where
you know, people change or if they live wherever. But like there is
very much this identity, at least when I would go to watch Duke games,
when I watch Une played Duke, it was very much this idea of
North Carolina beats a lot of these kids from out of of course I'm being
a hypocrite because I didn't grow up in North Carolina, but it's like a
lot of kids from Duke come from Connecticut and New Jersey and New York and
and all these other places. Like like we all used I used to choke
all the time. It's like if you didn't get into Harvard, Yale or
Princeton, Duke was your safety school. So you know, so it's like
we beat all of those kids from New Jersey and kids from New York and
all that, and like this is our state. This is North Carolina.
There is this very kind of regional state pride. And again I'm being a
hypocrite because I grew up in California, but like I did, it was
through not just going to school at the University of North Carolina, but watching
North Carolina basketball games that I felt a really deep affinity to the state in
North Carolina. And it's why nowadays when I like, I feel more at
home, you know, from any when I'm in any part of the state
in North Carolina, whether I'm in Wilmington or what's the Salem or Durham or
Chapel Hill or anywhere, or you know, then I do oftentimes then when
I'm more than when I'm in California. You mentioned in your book how when
you left Chapel Hill when you graduated, and we're moving on kind of what
the next phase of your life, that it really felt like for the first
time you were leaving like a place that felt like home. I attended to
Wake for a short amount of time, and having lived in Winston, like
there very much is that like affinity and that kind of Southern hospitality culture that
really like, even as someone who grew up in the South, but a
different part of the South, Big twelve country, like it is, like
the culture there is just so strong when it comes to these college sports because
they are so close together. And Wake actually used to be even closer to
all those schools than it is now. It moved from actual Wake Forest,
which is closer to Durham and Raleigh. Yeah, tobacco money brought it further
east. So yeah, yeah, I'm tobacco money. Tobacco money. And
that's the other thing I think that's important to recognize. It's just like,
if we could talk about economics a little bit, is that because it was
Carolina was a port state, and because it didn't have a large cotton it
didn't have a large cotton industry the way that even Virginia did, or even
South Carolina or Georgia did, tobacco just became something. And then all those
places are in close proxity just because of like where you could grow stuff.
Right, So we've talked about some schools. We talked about only one player
so far, which is Michael Jordan. We've talked about, However, you've
mentioned a lot of coaches and one of the reasons we wanted to have you
on is because Roy Williams, who was an assistant coach and then later a
head coach at North Carolina. Was also a coach for a while at the
University of Kansas, when Jason Saidakis was growing up and was a big fan.
And people have seen a lot of similarities between Roy Williams and Ted Lasso.
But first I want to go back a step to Roy's mentor coach,
which was Dean Smith. And there's a lot of talk about coach John Wooden,
famed UCLA coach, and Ted Lasso, but I also see some Dean
Smith characteristics and philosophies pop up from time to time. What can you how
can you how would you describe maybe the character and the coaching and the success
of Dean Smith, so the way that like, I because like it's funny
you mentioned that, because it's like very much again we didn't talk about like
like you didn't hear much about Michael Georgian, And even when you talked about
players, you would hear more about people like Phil Ford. You'd hear more
about James Worthy as much as you hear about Michael at North Carolina. But
more than anything, Dean Smith is very much kind of the patron saint just
because he was seen as this guy who quote unquote did it right. One
of the things that was really well known is he never cursed Craig. But
if I'm wrong, Like the only time year Ted Lasso curse is in the
series season one finale where he says, when the whole fucking thing right?
And it's and that's like and then you're kind of like, oh wait,
because there's a lot of cursing and Ted Lasso. Of course you have Roy
Canny, you have Kaylee, you ever right, you know, but you
have Rebecca. And then so when you hear you know, Ted Ted saying
you know, when the whole fucking thing, You're like, oh, I
heard that from him. It's a bit of a shock the first time you
hear it, for sure. Yeah, it's it's like it's like hearing your
minister a curse. But also like there was always this feeling that again,
like one of the things that it was funny. I remember Kenny the Jet
Smith, you know, you know who of course is on and at the
NBA he did a beautiful, beautiful eulogy. You should go back and watch
it. In twenty fifteen, Everdean Smith died where he said like Dean never
talked about winning, and that's very similar to Ted Lasso. He just he
cared a lot about making these players men, making these boys men. I
mean, there's that famous saying with Dean Smith that he that he was the
only person who could keep Michael Jordan under twenty in the game, and that
is very true because it was very much teamwork working together. But then there
was also the other aspect with Dean Smith, which was that he was an
outspoken civil rights advocate and and you have to remember, being a white coach
in the South, particularly Interview University was demos built by enslaved people. That
was a very big deal. So there's a legendary story of he brought it
one of his players to sit down and met with him at the Southern Pines
restaurant in Chapel Hill. It basically led to the desigregation of the university.
And that I think more than any kind of like winning, I think that
that's all that that mindset has always kind of been in the Zeitgei set.
Not only is Dean Smith, you know this, this this legendary coach,
but he's also this upstanding, upright guy, and on top of that,
he's a civil rights advocate, and he was seen as a guy who quote
unquote did things right, which is to say that almost all of the students
went back and graduated or graduated or stayed four years. That kind of image
is a little out dad because there was that report. Of course, there
was the there was an academic scandal unc and it's found that the beginnings of
that cheating scandal began under Dean Smith. And this was before the television contracts
became a big part of the universities, sponsorships and all of the things that
we now associate with college sports. So it's a little fracture, but that
image still exists, and this this idea of like the Carol line of way
still exists in especially in Chapel l Yeah, the swearing part cracks me up.
Dean Smith's players and the coaches that came after him under his tree tend
to be like Dean Smith quote unquote disciples. And so the current coach,
Hubert Davis, he's known as not swearing. Roy Smith was known as not
swearing, except there was one time when Smith in his last game coaching Kansas
or yeah, sorry, Roy Williams last game coaching Kansas, they lose the
national championship by three points to Syracuse in two thousand and three, and he's
coming off the court and the reporter asked him about rumors that he might be
the next coach at North Carolina and he says, in his kind of like
southern Kansas drawl, I don't give a shit about North Carolina right now.
And it was just great CBS National Television, a very ted Lasso at the
end of season one moment. Yeah it was because like, yeah, I
think the whole thing that it was was that in the background of that is
in two thousand, after Bill guth Richard retired, Bill Gunther, who was
also one of the assistant coaches at un See, Dean and Bill Guthler sh
had tried to bring Roy back because he'd been he'd been in Kansas and the
other thing about Roy and we could get a little more into this. Roy
took them to Final four, to Jayhawks, to final fours, He took
them to lead conferences, national, you know, regular season championships, but
he could never get to the title. He can never get them to the
Promised Land. And then basically there was that moment. It was after Syracuse,
after the loss at Syracuse and people just would have been asking because North
Carolina had just evolved into a dumpster fire under Matt Doherty, who was part
of that legendary team that with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins, James Worthy and
all them. And then like basically the reporters like, you know, everybody's
asking about North Carolina and he's like, look, and Roy being from I
think the other reason why he so Roy Williams was so beloved, at least
in North Carolina was because he's from Black Mountain, North Carolina, which is
very rural, and as a result, you know, they're just filling up.
He's from here, he's one of us. But but you know he's
just like, as a journalists, like, I understand you got to ask
that question, but right now it's not very nice, and like you can
tell he's very frustrated, and then he just kind of just says, I
could give a shit about North Carolina. I got I got ten kids in
there that I love, and it was and then of course he's kind of
you know, that was a very much an Then, of course, a
few days later, Roy announces that he that he's going to North Carolina,
and then of course. In two thousand and five, they win the championship
and Roy's first championship. Do you see any other similarities between Roy Williams and
Ted Lasso that stand out to you from the North Carolina perspective? We can
see them here from the Kansas side, but like, what do you see
from year end of the spectrum? Yeah, I mean, I think what
I see is at Roy very much. You know, he does care about
his kids very much as people all so, you know a lot. One
of the things that always frustrated fans like myself is that Roy Williams never called
the time out, and it was just endlessly frustrating. There were probably a
few games where he threw, but then there were plenty more where he just
let the players play and that kind of I guess you could say that kind
of confidence in your players. On one end, it's frustrating, he's just
like, come on, you don't want to ruin the onement and call a
time out. But on the other end, he trusted his players enough.
During that time, he had people like Tyler Hans Burrow and Danny Greene,
It's Sean May and some of them went on to become assistant coaches for him
very much trusting in his players and trusting in their skills. I think that's
a very ted Lasset thing in that you imbue your players and you imbue your
team around you with the confidence and the belief that they could do things for
themselves. I think I think again that that's something that you saw you see
Ted do throughout the season, is he kind of lets Nate the great do
things, you know, in the same way he very much Roy very much
could see. He very much tried to set up Hubert for success. And
like, I just want to if I can defend Hubert right now, because
I know he's going to be getting under a lot of fire right now,
if I could kind of talk my shot right now is that Hubert, Yeah,
I get that, like he's so great, but like hey, people
who are talking about him getting fired right now are talking out of their boss
because he took them to the finals last year. B I think the other
thing is that the kids got out there a lot of pressure on top of
that, this isn't this is still Roy's recruited class, so you know,
these are kids that Roy recruited. These are not kids that he recruited.
So there was always going to be a natural gap. And then on top
of that, last year was such a fluke because it was just like toward
the end because I went to go watch a game in Philadelphia where Cable of
kind of flipped on the switch and just like went hard. But but but
all those so I think that so sorry, I just had to defend Hubert.
And also and I think it is important to have a blackhoat coaching black
kids. But but anyway, that's that's my tangent. But yeah, I
think that there is some similarities, respect for the players, respect for the
process, recognizing that it's more about building a team and building a long a
longer lasting operation. I think that the difference. I think that Roy,
very much like Dan Smith, was having trouble adapting to the new era of
college basketball where you have your one and duns, you have kids, you
just want to go straight to the NBA. UM And I agree, you
know, I have a lot of criticisms of college sports. I think it's
in a lot of ways it's a scam. But I think that Roy was
still married to that old idea that Dean Smith taught him, Like you build
a longer lasting operation. You built you built this cohesive unit, and that
leads you to the promise, and that leads you to win. Not thinking
about winning gets you to winning. And I think that's very And then also
you know, just the Roy very much. Obviously he would get frustrated at
times, and you know he would kind of rip off his jacket. But
but but but also just kind of that sunny disposition and believing the best.
What is the perception overall of basketball fans in North Carolina of the University of
Kansas basketball program, considering their shared history? And I understand at this point
in history too, it might be a little bit raw because in the twenty
twenty two NCUBAA Tournament, Jesus came back from a huge deficit to beat North
Carolina by three. But overall, what's the perception of University of Kansas basketball
from a North Carolina perspective? Yeah, I mean I think that So again,
this is this is this goes back to the Roy Williams lawris and like
shortly after Roy Williams the first time, you know, his first season back
in North Carolina, after North Carolina was knocked out. If you remember,
Roy showed up to a Kansas game with like a with a Jayhawk sweaters and
that was scene is like really bad form that was seen, Like, dude,
you're at North Carolina. Now. I think that in a way,
and then a lot of people wouldn't want to admit this. I think that
there's a little bit of back and forth because on one and I think Kansas
recognized because on one end, because Dean Smith also, you know, passed
roots in Kansas in the fall Gallan tradition. So I think Kansas lives rent
free in our head. I remember in twenty seventeen when North Carolina had his
championship run, when Kansas lost to Oregon. Was it yea in Kansas City?
Yeah, in Kansas City. I remember hoping to God that Oregon would
beat Kansas because I just did not want North Carolina to play Kansas because I
was so afraid because like, I don't think North Carolina has beaten Kansas since
Roy has come to North Carolina. So there's very much this feeling of from
an outsider's perspective, I think that there's always this feeling for Kansas that Roy
loves Kansas more than he loves North Carolina, because he says he loves both.
Yea, you know, so you know last year in the final was
called the Roy Williams Invitational, and correct me if I'm wrong. In two
in the nineteen nineties, in the final four, Roy's first final four,
when he when they after because they were banned their first right, Roy actually
did Dean Smith and Dan Smith was ejected and it really kind of like it
was really kind of hurt like even though he won and just seemed got to
go to the finals, it really kind of weighed on him to see his
mentor this guy who's like his father be ejected just like for this kind of
conflagration. I've always viewed the relationship between Kansas fans and North Carolina fans as
kind of a quote unquote special relationship like that between England and the United States,
where I think, and we've seen this in the last twenty years in
World Cups when the United States plays England and both fan bases kind of live
rent free in the other's head. I know that when Roy left Kansas to
go to North Carolina, there were a lot of fans that were like sad,
mad and probably lost perspective that North Carolina was the only school that Roy
Williams would leave Kansas to go to but at the same time they just couldn't
really contain their big feelings. And then it happened again, the inferiority complex
when Roy won those championships with North Carolina. And now everything smoothed over.
But I'm sure that we'll get another flare up in the future of basketball.
I mean right now, right now, I mean Kansas Scott knocked out by
Arkansas UM and then and then my Targill didn't even make it to the tournament
UM just because it was just it was kind of a disaster. But but
but but yeah, eventually, like they are going to clash again. It's
you know, it's it's fate. Uh, It's it's batman versus a joker.
It's not quite North Carolina due because North Carolina Duke is shaped out of
close proximity and a lot more hate and no there is this roal hatred like
no love, zero, there is no there is. You know, I
have friends who went to Duke, and I say to them, like,
look, three hundred and sixty five, three hundred and sixty three days of
the year, we're cool, three hundred and sixty four on on late beers,
But like on those days we hate each other and we will go out
of each other Like it's funny. I become friends with Kim Ken jong On
from you know, the actor who went to do for undergrad and UNC for
met and like we've kind of struck up a kind of fun relationship on Twitter,
but like we we joke with each other. It's like like because he
was seen taking a selfie with himself at Cameron in Noor and I tweeted at
him when when Carolina being took us like hey having fun, you know where
was Kansas. It's kind of like, Okay, we understand that's where That's
what Brad Dean Smith's become Dean Smith. That's you know, that's what kind
of you know, Roy of course came up through there. There's just recognition
that that that Kansas is where basketball kind of started. You know, we
have respect for it, and it's like it sucked that we lost, and
like I think it's more if Duke is more fueled by hatred, I think
Kansas it's fueled by respect but also terror fear. For his part, Jason
Sadekis has shown himself to be the consummate diplomat because although he is a huge
Kansas Jayhawks fan. I've noticed he's worn I'm pretty sure it's um the Carolina
Blue Jordans ones a couple of times in episodes, and he's always wearing Jordan's.
So he's very respectful and even I would say reverend of aspects of Carolina
basketball history. Well, Roy helped recruit Michael. That's the other thing people
forget. And there's you know, anybody who's watched the Last Dance, Roy
had some of the best lines and in the Last Dance, like you know,
obviously he helped recruit it. He told Dan Smith about him. And
there's that line where you know, Michael Jordan says, I want to be
the best player here and then Roy says, well, you gotta work harder
than everybody, and then Michel says I worked as harder than everybody else.
He says, I thought you just said you want to be the greatest,
you know, And there's that line where Roy says, like, uh,
you know, Michael Jordan's the only guy I know who has switched to turn
off and he never freaking turned it off, and like, you know,
this is so yeah, Like I mean, you know you can't talk about
in this you know, you can't talk about the legacy of Michael Jordan without
talking about Roy Williams. Yeah, yeah, all right, So switching gears
just a bit. You mentioned earlier that you finished a book in twenty twenty
one. The title of the book is We're Not Broken, Changing the autism
conversation. You are an individual who lives with autism and who wrote the book
essentially to shine a light on what it is actually like to be autistic,
to be an autistic person. Yeah, so what was the process that led
you to want to start writing this book? Yeah? So, I mean
I'm a polt, you know again, I'm a political journalist by day,
right, So it started out as I was at a party in twenty fifteen
a guy with the name of Tim Mack, who's now an NPR great journalist.
He's been reporting a lot in Ukraine. He offered me a drink and
I said, um, oh, I don't drink because the autos a spectrum
in a medicine on mix. I take cam mix with alcohol. It's that
what I'm saying, Come out, have a drink. Like he said,
Oh, there's a lot of autistic people in DC. You should write about
that. And at the time I was really new in my career, so
I was like, yeah, when I get better at being a journalist.
At the time, I was covering you know, economics and politics. I
was happy doing that. That What happened was I was working at a place
called National Journal and be Um Publications print edition was gonna shut down. So
my editor, a gay the name of Richard just who's just a lovely human
being. He said, I just want to have these kind of just bold
pieces, you know, the romanos, like what are they gonna do?
Fire me at the end of the year. So I pitched this idea about
it, like what it's like to be an autistic in DC, kind of
like a fun, little chatty, kind of like piece about the like insider
DC. That's what I thought it would be. And then he really kind
of pushed me, which I feel what a good editor should do, to
say, well, why should this exist? And I said, well,
I think we focused too much on trying to cure out to people and not
enough. I'm trying to help out just two people live more fully lost.
It's like, there's your piece though, and at the time, again,
this is twenty eight this was twenty fifteen, so if you remember Donald Trump
at this time starts running for president. And it was the second Republican presidential
debate where they asked Trump about vaccines and his believe about vaccines and autism.
And what was interesting was that Trump of courses autism is in the epidemic,
you know, and he talks about the vaccines and um, which kind of
was real proudly to how you would handled COVID. But but but the other
thing that stood out to me was that arguably more was Ben Carson, who
is a pediatric neurosurgeon. Uh said, you know, kind of gave Trouble
a pass. Someone who should know better. Yes, yes, someone who
should know better, someone who's who's who's very smart. And that was that.
That was the moment. Like and then like, you know, again,
I grew up in in California, and I thought, Okay, Trump
is you know, an unorthodox Brew Republican, but he's a Republican in the
West. But I grew up in southern California where there's a lot of you
know, you know, Roy Kent's yoga moms, you know, who don't
want to vaccinate their kids because they don't want to put toxins in their kids'
bodies or something. But like so so so, like I thought, wait,
a lot, you know, look, Trump is Trump, but like
there's a lot of people who believe that. And my feeling was, Okay,
I hear a lot of politicians talking about it, because it wasn't just
Donald Trump who was talking about it. Barack Obama talked about it. John
McKay talked about it. These are not people who are ill informed. These
are very smart people who are believing this. And my feeling is as a
political journalism is like, Okay, we have a lot of bad information about
autism. That was when we have really bad policies about autisms. So that
was really what kind of spurred the book. And really so I wrote that
peace for National journal And I think the next question is like, Okay,
how does that bad information translating to But it's like to be autistic in America.
So as a result, what I did as I kind of hit the
road. I traveled to West Virginia. I traveled to Michigan. I traveled
to Tennessee. I traveled to the bar area, California. I traveled to
a few of the places, and I really just tried to get in an
understanding of what it's like to be autistic America, and how we are misunderstandings
a watch is negatively effect to autistic people, but also what a world,
what a society could look like if we're affirming the people too are with are
autistic. Right, Because one of the praises of your book is that it
humanizes folks with autism and people who are on the spectrum in ways that where
they feel seen in ways and maybe they hadn't been seen before. And you're
able to bring not only your own sort of personal perspective. It's not exactly
a memoir, but you use a lot of your own personal experiences. But
you we've been in so seamlessly with folks who are on the spectrum from kind
of across the country, who are in a bunch of different disciplines. Like
you talked to professors, you talk to just folks who are, you know,
working in sort of regular retail day jobs. You talk to all sorts
of different folks who are in all sorts of different areas to try and to
try and show like, hey, this is not one size fits all,
rejecting these stereotypes and kind of helping folks who are on the spectrum who don't
have an autism diagnosis to understand. Okay, the onus is on folks like
me to say, like, what is the way that we're making You know
that my sort of internalized ableism is keeping me from making this a better space
for everyone to be more inclusive. And that's like one of the things the
book does such a good job because you even those stories along with data and
studies in such a beautiful way. Yeah, I mean, I really thank
you for saying that. I think one of the things that I realized that,
Like I think initially when the book came out, when I started writing
the book, I think a lot of who wanted it to be a memoir
and then you're wrong. It has started parts of my own personal life in
it. But I think that, you know, the impulse as a journalist
is to always be you know, is like I realized, you know,
my story is only in bad It's one story. And I think that the
more, you know, anytime I thought about doing a memoir, I realized,
oh, there are other people who I wonder if other people are experienced
in this too, And then I was just kind and it was just like
any time that I wanted to make it just about me. I realized,
Oh, there's probably something larger going on, or I would just think to
myself, Yeah, but I'm only one person and who's just leaving out.
And I think that was really one of the important things that I wanted to
do is I want to include as many people as possible when writing about them.
Writing about this well, one of the things that you touch on in
the very beginning of the book is that the conversation about autistic folks was led
for so long by folks like their parents or their caretakers or other people who
are who are well meaning, but yes, don't have that same experience.
And so I love that you go to first person accounts of autistic folks and
bring those in. So, what are some of the like, maybe the
most unexpected responses to the book that you've received and maybe the most fulfilling are
kind of surprising. I think the ones that are always that are always fulfilling
are the ones. It's funny, like a lot of times I get email
or I get DMS from people who have just been newly diagnosed as autistic and
they say their book help them understand more. Or I get emails from parents
or grandparents sometimes of autistic people when they say, you know it's you know,
your book made me realize, like, hey, I need to you
know, put the focus on my kid and make sure that I think about
what my kid or my grandkid wants now what I want. And I think
those are always the ones that like, um always means something because it shows
that you actually change their mind, you help, and it made them rethink
how they make sure that how they look out for their loved ones well being.
And then the other ones, you know, like I said, with
newly diagnosed people or with people who realize they might be autistic, like when
they realize that they're not fieled versions of normal and that they realize that there's
this like larger community, that always amazing because like I'll say this, like
when I was a kid growing up, like I was diagnosed when I was
like it formally diagnosed when I was like eight or nine, and like the
understanding of autism was changing as I was growing up. You know, you
know that you're different. You may not know all the labels, but like
you know that you don't belong or you know that you're being ostracized by your
kids on the schoolyard. It wasn't until I started writing about autism myself.
It wasn't as until I started meeting other autistic people interviewing other autistic people,
that I learned that it was possible for me to have a life, fulfilling
life on my own, because, like I had heard all the horror stories
about like you're never gonna be able to grow up or graduate college, or
or live on your own, or get married or any of those things.
And I think that it was very liberating and very refreshing and reassuring to me
through interviewing all these types of people that like, wow, I could actually
have a good, in fulfilling and happy life. So when that, when
I see that, I get to relate, because like that was such a
revelation for me when I was writing and reporting the book. So when other
people, other autistic people particularly, get that revelation, that is so reassuring,
and it's something that, like im, it's the best feeling in the
world. It truly is one of the things that can make folks feel invisible
or have a difficult time imagining their place in the world. In our society
kind of centers around depictions of different individuals or communities in the media. In
your opinion, are there any depictions of folks on the spectrum and popular media
that you find particularly constructive or helpful and if not, what might that look
like? You know, of course there have been some really bad portrayals,
right, yes, yeah's like I mean, I mean they did. There
have been like the super computer geeks, the big bank theory stuff. There's
been There's been some really terrible depict you know, I know people on one
end rain Man was important because it was like the first time people saw autism.
But then on the other ended, it really reinforced some bad stereotypes about
autism. So like that, So there are so like it was really kind
of a mixed blessing in some ways. But I think that, you know,
I've been watching on Netflix the show Extraordinary Attorney Wou, which I think
is on Netflix. It's fantastic. There was that many mini film that picks
are Dead called Loop, which was incredible. It's it was cast with a
non speaking autistic girl as the main character, Madison Bandy to The girl who
was playing this not speaking autistic girl was actually a non speaking autistic girl of
color. It was one of the best depictions of autism I've ever seen.
I think that it's getting better. I think the more that you get more
autistic people in the writer's room, and more autistic people even just consulting on
a show, I think has been helpful. You know. I think that
because, like I think what I was worried about when shows like A Typical
came out and there was kind of a backlash because a lot of autistic people
didn't like the portrayals. I think I was worried on one end that movies
do studios and television studios would just stop doing portrayals of autism. You know,
for a while that was the case. But I think now there's more
of a oh, we could maybe do more. If we do more,
you know, stuff with autistic folks input, then will get more people who
want to watch it. Uh, you know, I think that's been where
you're seeing it more. But of course it's not that we're it needs to
be, but it's still is better. I think the fact that other movies
that have positively depicted depicted disability not necessarily odd to movies like Coda, Uh,
did a Fantastic did Fantastically Want an Academy Award last year. I think
that gives um, Hollywood the incentive to to make more, you know,
disability minded movies. So it's still a long way to go. Um.
You know, what I've noticed is that like a lot of times when they
have didn't been when autism depictions aren't explicit, they've actually been better than like
when they're they're employed than when they're actually explicit. So like I think,
uh, what was that one with Denzel Washington, Roman Israel, Esquire or
whatever. We're like, it's kind of implied he's autistic. That's great.
Uh, there was obviously community with Abduh, you know, Danny Putty who's
also on Apple Plus on Apple TV with the Quastic Quest. I thought that
I thought that show is fantastic when it comes to pinting autism, but it
still is getting I think it's there's still a lot of skittishness. I think
about autism in a way you don't necessarily see with talking around. Hollywood still
messes up deafness a lot, still messes up blindness a lot. But I
think that there is still those disabilities still exists in the public imagination in a
way that autism has just just started to and I think one of the things
that I say too, and I say this to my friends and media who
want to write about disability but are kind of afraid of it, is like,
yes, you can initially mess up, but the only way to get
to good depictions of autism and media like in portrayals, is by constantly reporting,
constantly telling stories, getting better at it and building trust. And the
same way, the only way I think we're going to get good portrayals of
autism is starting by doing kind of really rough portrayals of autism and learning and
learning how to do better and getting better and listening to autistic people and getting
that feedback, you know, because like I think even the fact that that
movie See It Did, which was so terrible and got such bad reviews,
I think that in some ways that on one end, it was like it
was good to seeing people saying, no, this is a bad portrayal,
like even Tina Fey and Amy Pohler made fun of it at the Golden Globes.
But on the other I think what it did isn't shown Hollywood, Like,
oh, if we do a really half portrayal of autism, there's gonna
be some backlunh. Well, two things about what you said stick out to
me. One is that, like one of the core tenets of your book
is how people with autism so often get pigeonholed into like tech like steam or
sorry, into steam disciplines. Like it's like okay, like you can do
the numbers, you can do the coding this and that, and you're you're
you know you you say often in your book like I'm living proof, like
I didn't want to do that stuff. I wanted to be a journalist.
I wanted to be a reporter, and like that's part of the thing is
like with in media and Hollywood wherever folks are making this media, like having
those folks in the room and knowing that people with autism are capable of that,
Like that is that that in itself as a big piece of the conversation.
And then two, I love that you pointed out the character and community
a bed just because I feel like that was maybe even like a little bit
ahead of the curve, and it did it portrays he portrayed in a way
to where I don't remember if it is explicit in the show. Maybe it
is, but like it wasn't the whole. It wasn't the focus of his
whole character, like he was a whole character. Yeah, and that is
that it's so important too. Yeah, I think they're like allowing autistic people
to be their whole selves and not just having that one part of Yeah,
obviously it's an indelible part of who they are, but like they can have
wise, they can date, they can screw up, they can you know,
go to school, they can have jobs. Like, I think that
that's incredibly important. I think having autistic people who are just you know,
kind of just living through life and who aren't hyper slavants. I think it's
you know, super important a depiction that we see in media. A group
of people that are very represented in media are those of reporters. We see
those in tons of shows. And to bring the conversation back to Ted Lasso
just a bit, how did you feel about the portray ale and behavior of
our friend Trent Krim from The Independent, especially his kind of departure from The
Independent around the end of season two. Oh yeah, no, so it
was funny, like I this is this is a true story, like not
this last Halloween, but the Halloween before. So like I report on Capitol
Hall a lot Mitt Romney dressed up as Ted Lasso, and I cannot believe
that, Like I missed the chance to say Eric Garcia The Independent to Tim
mitt Rowney that he was dressed as Ted Lasso, I've missed that. I'm
going to be kicking myself with the rest of my life that. But so
first off, I should say that, like, you know, British journalism
is very different from American journalism, and I think that's been one of the
things I've learned cover working for a British newspaper like The Independent, but just
trying to you know, see itself more as a global newspaper than just a
British newspaper. But like I mean, I think I think that he was
definitely one of the things I joked about with my colleagues that like when he
basically outed his source snate, and also that he kind of didn't really ask
Ted comments um, like like he kind of went around it when he asked
Ted recomment about it, like like in that one episode before he outs him
like it was it was. It was very much a breach of journalistic ethics.
Um. But Trent is a very fascinating character because I think that there
is you know, you know, and like before I ever got into politics,
I loved sports, you know, sports punt Retreat. I mean it
kind of just show how, you know, Trent and Roy for the brief
moment he's a pundit do kind of show how sports media can sometimes contribute to
the worst aspects of sports. Uh that was, And of course Roy at
some point says screw this, you know. And of course Trent feels very
bad about what he did, and he outs himself and he ends up getting
kicked on his key start. I like the character of Trent grim so I'm
interested to see what comes next for him. So this pertains to both the
show and your book. You mentioned in your book that you are a huge
fan of rock and metal music and that you grew up wanting to be a
guitarist and a musician, and you even equipping your book that you used to
kind of have this debate with your dad about whether David Lee Roth or Sammy
Hagar was the better Van Halen singer. And so I'm just curious, where
are you guys. Okay, it's funny because that's the same thing. There's
a little joke about that, And see, I want to Lasso. So
I'm wondering where you fall in that debate. Yeah, when they play against
Everton, yes, coach Beard gets fifty one fifty Yes, then he's like
the best Van Halen singer. And the Beard's like ahm, and he's like,
it's not Sammy Hagar. Don't get wrong, prefer sam So, you
know, I like a lot of Sammy Hagar stuffing, like Sammy's a better
singer, don't get me wrong. I think like musically, but I mean,
those first four or five Van Halen albums, you can't beat them.
You can't beat them. I'm sorry, Uh, you know, I think
that they I think that David Lee Roth just fits that band properly. I
mean, yeah, you can see you can make all the r and said,
oh well, Eddie Rays Wilson the songs. But yeah, it's like
yeah, but it's not. It's not David Lee Rong. It's not that
doesn't have David Ly rock. Yeah. I feel like I was like sheltered.
My dad was a huge still as a huge Van Halen fan, and
like I feel like I was sheltered from the Sami Hagar like era, Like
I didn't even know that was a thing. Until I was like in middle
school. I was like, hey, there's this is a different guy and
he's like, yeah, it's like okay. I was like, oh,
I've just missed out on like half of van Halen history. But it's okay,
Like I'll figure it out. Dad. Thanks. So that that is
that it was the opposite with my dad. But because I saw the twenty
four reunion with with Sammy Hagar which kind of went to hell, and then
I won tickets in two and seven. Oh nice to see van Halen with
David Lee roth Stable Center with my dad. Choice all right, well,
I want to wrap it up with one final question that ties into your work
as a political journalist and reporter. There are some very few political jokes in
Ted Lasso, so I'm just wondering if you had one that you found particularly
cheeky or that was your favorite. One of my favorite ones is when um
Ted asks Sparry. He says, how's missus missus Beard doing, because you're
talking like I I like moms because they're kind of like a blue produce.
That's the episode where we meet Rebecca's mom and they're talking about mom. Yes,
exactly. It's a great it's a that's a great of it. And
um and then like he says, how's missus Beard doing. He says full
blown qing on and I think you hear Beard going and you're like okay,
Like as somebody who is who lived in Washington, DC during January six,
I'm like, yeah, that tracks well, man. Eric, thank you
so much for coming on the show and chatting it up with us about ted
Lasso and your book. It's been a pleasure, man, it's been so
fun. Let's do this. Yeah, and that is our show. We
had a blast chatting ted Lasso and college basketball with Eric. You can find
links to his book, his websit side, his work, and all the
other stuff we mentioned in this episode in the show notes. We'll be back
with more ted Lasso goodness, but you can keep the conversation going with us
on Twitter and Instagram in the meantime. Our handle on both platforms is at
ted Lasso Pod. This episode of Richmond Till We Die is brought to you
by Gin and Kerosene Productions. It was produced by me Brett and me Christian.
If you're enjoying the podcast, please take thirty seconds to subscribe to our
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Eric. Thanks for listening, and until next time, Cheers y'all. Coord