WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:15.640 Welcome to the Crown and Anchor Greyhounds. This is Richmond Till We Die, 2 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.239 a conversation about the Apple TV Plus show ted Lasso, where we explore the 3 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:22.440 characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us 4 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:25.879 laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts 5 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:35.679 of our hearts the next. I'm Christian and I'm waiving the week like nobody's 6 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:40.799 business. I'm Brett and my brackets are already busted, but I am so 7 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:46.439 excited to introduce our guests today. Eric Garcia. Eric Garcia is a Washington, 8 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:50.719 DC based journalist focused on politics and policy, and is currently the senior 9 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:55.240 Washington correspondent for a little outlet you may have heard of called The Independent. 10 00:00:55.880 --> 00:01:00.119 Yes, that the Independent. He also works as a columnist for MSNBC and 11 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:06.200 makes regular appearances on radio and television. Previously, Eric has held positions at 12 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:10.400 The Washington Post, The Hill, Roll Call, National Journal, and market 13 00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.920 Watch. Eric is also the author of a book titled We're Not Broken, 14 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:18.879 Changing the Autism Conversation. It was released back in August twenty twenty one. 15 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:22.920 In the book, Eric weaves his own story together with that of other autistic 16 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:26.319 individuals, to discuss the social and policy gaps that exist in supporting those on 17 00:01:26.319 --> 00:01:30.480 the spectrum, and to shed light on what it's like to be autistic in 18 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:34.159 America. In addition to his work in political reporting and writing, Eric is 19 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:40.599 a huge fan of Ted Lasso and University of North Carolina basketball, which is 20 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:42.640 how we connected with him on Twitter. So we invited him on the show 21 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:49.079 to chat about college basketball and Ted Lasso, particularly the parallels between Ted's character 22 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.280 and the real life iconic men's college basketball coaches Dean Smith and Roy Williams. 23 00:01:56.079 --> 00:02:00.359 So Greyhounds please join us as we welcome Eric Garcia to the podcast. Asked, 24 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:02.719 we're so glad you're here. Eric, Hey, thank you very much. 25 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:06.640 So let's jump in first with the thing that brought us all together, 26 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.240 Ted Lasso. You're a fan of the show. Yeah, I did you 27 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:13.879 decide to start watching Ted Lasso? And what hooked you in and kept you 28 00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:16.120 there? I think? I mean, I think everybody already started watching it 29 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.639 doing the pandemic. I mean, but like one of my really good friends 30 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:22.759 said, I just kept on tweeting about Ted Lasso and then like I think 31 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:24.719 I was just like I was looking for a shot. I just finished writing 32 00:02:24.800 --> 00:02:27.599 my book and I had some free time, and I was just like, 33 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.599 I need, I need a show to watch. Then, like everybody told 34 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:34.800 me, watched ted Lasso, watched ted Lasso, watched ted Lasso. So 35 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.639 I watched the first season in like twenty twenty one, like spring of twenty 36 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:44.080 twenty one, and I just got hooked. I think it was just the 37 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.240 writing was really great. It was funny, it was it was it was 38 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.520 also very lighthearted. I remember you. I mean this was during the depths 39 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.039 of the pandemic, and you know you. I think people just wanted uh 40 00:02:54.280 --> 00:03:00.039 some you know, comfort food television. Um, I remember some. But 41 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:02.840 he's saying that, like food television really took off after nine to eleven. 42 00:03:04.120 --> 00:03:07.000 Like people really just wants whenever there's something terrible in the world, people just 43 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:10.000 wants something really comforting. And I think that was what ted Lasso was for 44 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:14.280 a lot of people. Yeah, we started the pandemic with Tiger King and 45 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:20.080 then we ended less. So Yeah, in addition to being done with your 46 00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:23.520 book and having more time because of that, one of the things that stopped 47 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.919 early in the pandemic for a while, we're sporting events, and one of 48 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:34.520 our sporting events to get knocked off the calendar were the NCAA basketball conference tournaments 49 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:38.520 and an NCAA basketball tournament. You're a big fan, and so we did 50 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:40.840 want to bring you on to talk about that and some of the connections with 51 00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:46.639 the show a bit. So your expertise in fandom is with the University of 52 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.080 North Carolina tar Heels. Can you paint a picture for people who are not 53 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:57.319 college basketball fans what it's like to be a basketball fan of North Carolina in 54 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:02.400 general ACC basketball, the conference therein and then specifically Tobacco Road, that area 55 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.319 of North Carolina the UNC is located in. Yeah, I mean, so 56 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:10.199 I should say I was a transfer student to the university with Carolina. I 57 00:04:10.240 --> 00:04:15.159 grew up in California, but I was born in Chicago. And the thing 58 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:17.600 that was said, so I was a baby when the bulls were you know, 59 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.680 we're taking off. Like actually, there's a photo of the like my 60 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.079 dad's business was doing like a charity golf tournament or something like that, and 61 00:04:27.160 --> 00:04:30.040 like there's a picture of me with Michael Jordan, like when I was like 62 00:04:30.319 --> 00:04:35.920 nine months and Charles Berkeley actually hit on my mom that night in front of 63 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:40.600 my dad. I feel like, I feel like Chuck is one of the 64 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:44.319 only people who can get away with doing that. But so there was Dad. 65 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:46.519 But then I transferred to school because I went to community college first, 66 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:49.920 and then I transferred the University of North Carolina. And initially I didn't put 67 00:04:49.959 --> 00:04:53.360 two in to together and realize that that was where Michael went to school. 68 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:55.879 But like I realized that afterward and I was like, oh, yeah, 69 00:04:55.959 --> 00:05:00.920 Tar Hills and like, so like I'm a Yankee, you know more Chicago. 70 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.879 I went to call a group in California. But you kind of don't. 71 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:11.800 You kind of get indoctrinated early on when it comes to North Carolina basketball. 72 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:16.120 You learn it was funny. It's funny because weirdly enough, when I 73 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:17.879 was at CHAT, when I was in Chapel Hill, when I was a 74 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:20.720 student, Yeah, people are like, yeah, it's cool. Then Michael 75 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:24.680 went here, but you hear more about Dean Smith, hear more about Roy 76 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:29.959 Williams and Bill Guthridge, and you hear very much about that kind of Caroline 77 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:34.000 away and you learn, of course, to hate Duke and you learned that 78 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:39.120 like nobody really cares about NC state And you learn and then you know that 79 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:44.199 whole tobacco road. Uh you know, as my old professor like said, 80 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:46.800 said, like the joke was, you know, of course you know the 81 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.120 tobacco road because tobacco crops are are were planted there for a long time. 82 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:53.879 Even though tobacco is not as big as it used to be, we get 83 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:58.480 most of our some of the countries now, it's that those rivalries still exist. 84 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.240 It's very much the way that I've always seen that people always say it 85 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:05.240 is that like particularly in North Carolina. I'm speaking from North Carolina and Virginia 86 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.839 here because that's where the ACC for the longest time was before it expanded to 87 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:13.560 like Florida and now like you know, Mada's Notre Dame as part of the 88 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:17.480 sec which I don't understand, but like to me, the ACC in particularly 89 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:20.480 in North Carolina, it's like it's like the tar heels that those are like 90 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:24.920 the blue bloods of the universe of the state of North Carolina. These are 91 00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:27.519 the people who founded the state. Like I remember, I would meet people 92 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:30.000 who like their families go back to the founding of the state when I would 93 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.639 go when I would when I was at school, and then like you had 94 00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:39.120 NC State and those were working class kids, those were farm kids. Those 95 00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:43.600 were kids were who or who would grow up to Veginia be veterinarians or engineers 96 00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.360 or or farmers in a world. And then you have um you have way 97 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:54.399 Forest University, which is it was founded by you know, missionaries, and 98 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:59.000 it's very very provincial. And then all out of nowhere you have Duke, 99 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.839 which is very much I'm trying to be as objective about Duke as possible, 100 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:11.199 but it's very much aspired to be for a long time, you know, 101 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:15.920 an Ivy League school in the South. But then even though I'd argue Vanderbilt 102 00:07:15.959 --> 00:07:19.800 is more of an Ivy League in the South than Duke is, like, 103 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:23.959 you know, really in a lot of ways, it was coach k and 104 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.040 it was Miski. As much as I don't liked in then it as much 105 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.439 as I hate to give the devil who's d no pun intended. He only 106 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:33.720 needed a school that you wanted to go to. So and then of course 107 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:40.360 up top you got University of Virginia, which was the second public university founded 108 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.519 in the in the in the in the country. Uh, you know, 109 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:46.279 UNC was of course the first, but it depending on if you ask people 110 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.439 from William and mary there's a dispute there. But but but so very much 111 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:56.040 it is. It's very at least what I how I viewed the ACC is 112 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:59.360 that it was very insular and very and I was going to school when this 113 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:01.800 was started a change, like Maryland left the ACC when I was when I 114 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:07.360 was a student, It's this very insular kind of environment. It's like there's 115 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:11.759 this region from like Maryland to Virginia and North Carolina to part of South Carolina 116 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.759 that just like encompasses the ACC to me, even though there are other other 117 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:22.439 schools like Florida State. So it's this very insular community. And so coming 118 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.959 in as a Yankee from somebody who didn't really focus on on college sports, 119 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.120 it was just a fascinating culture. And like I remember in twenty sixteen, 120 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:33.480 again you know you talked about politics. I remember in twenty sixteen when North 121 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:39.080 Carolina banned the bathroom band bathroom bill band, right, if you remember, 122 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:45.080 one of the things that happened was the ACC pulled out in the NCAA pulled 123 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.519 out in North Carolina. And I remember telling my friends. I was living 124 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:50.480 in Washington, DC at the time, I was working in a newspaper. 125 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.360 I said Roy Cooper, the Democrat who was wonning for governor has just won 126 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:56.919 the election. I was like, because people cut I cut class to watch 127 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:01.799 basketball, you know when I'm working nowadays, like I'll have a monitor on 128 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.320 to watch ACC basketball. It is very much a religion. And who you 129 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:11.159 pick as your team, even if you don't go to that school very much, 130 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:15.399 I think says something about you as a person. I made the analogy 131 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:22.639 for people who don't understand soccer and other countries that the closest analogs are SEC 132 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.360 football in ACC basketball because it's the identity that people take on and in the 133 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.879 ACC, especially when we talk about tobacco road. Also the proximity. You 134 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:37.360 have the academic triangle of schools. How I was almost going to say teams, 135 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:41.159 but it really is schools. You have UNC, and you have Duke, 136 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:45.200 and you have I think is NCCA. Yeah yeah, And so there 137 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:48.519 are only none of them are more than twenty five miles away from each other. 138 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.440 And then you also have Wake Forest there in close proximity. And so 139 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.600 as you can imagine not only the big feelings that arise, but then also 140 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:03.120 the proximity makes things hot. They'd like to attend a North Carolina basketball game 141 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:05.919 when they play one of their rivals. Oh, I mean it is. 142 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:09.399 I mean I literally put it this way. I lived in Washington. D 143 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.559 CEO's an intern in Washington. Uh, right after they announced the killing of 144 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.600 Osavin Laden and like, uh, you know, there are people all in 145 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.720 front of the White House celebrated for some reason. Somebody brought a big US 146 00:10:20.799 --> 00:10:26.159 flag, like and people just started celebrating. And I've been in North Carolina 147 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.559 when UNC beats Duke, and I've been in Chapel Hill. Hands down, 148 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:35.240 it's a bigger frenzy. In Chapel Hill. There's a strength. There's a 149 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:39.080 drag called Franklin Street, Like every college town has that drag. People like 150 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:43.759 couches on fire, like jerseys on fire. You see people jumping in out 151 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:46.399 of trees. You see people for some reason somebody like you'll see people blowing 152 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:54.759 volas. You know, it's just it is absolute chaos in Mayhem. And 153 00:10:54.200 --> 00:11:01.720 it's one of those things where it's this kind of collective frenzy. And it's 154 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.200 funny because like I spent a lot of time also in my day job covering 155 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:11.720 Trump rallies, and I've what I've told people and when I talked to students 156 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:15.159 is I'm like, it's very similar. It's this herd mentality, it's this 157 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.919 tribal mentality, and I think that it's something very different from even pro sports, 158 00:11:20.679 --> 00:11:24.720 you know, in America, at least because pro sports in America it's 159 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:28.919 tied very much the owners and the whims and you know, and it's where 160 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.120 you know, people change or if they live wherever. But like there is 161 00:11:31.240 --> 00:11:35.919 very much this identity, at least when I would go to watch Duke games, 162 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.080 when I watch Une played Duke, it was very much this idea of 163 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:41.879 North Carolina beats a lot of these kids from out of of course I'm being 164 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:46.120 a hypocrite because I didn't grow up in North Carolina, but it's like a 165 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:50.159 lot of kids from Duke come from Connecticut and New Jersey and New York and 166 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:54.759 and all these other places. Like like we all used I used to choke 167 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:56.840 all the time. It's like if you didn't get into Harvard, Yale or 168 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:01.440 Princeton, Duke was your safety school. So you know, so it's like 169 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:07.399 we beat all of those kids from New Jersey and kids from New York and 170 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.720 all that, and like this is our state. This is North Carolina. 171 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:16.559 There is this very kind of regional state pride. And again I'm being a 172 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:18.960 hypocrite because I grew up in California, but like I did, it was 173 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:22.559 through not just going to school at the University of North Carolina, but watching 174 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:28.279 North Carolina basketball games that I felt a really deep affinity to the state in 175 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.600 North Carolina. And it's why nowadays when I like, I feel more at 176 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:35.120 home, you know, from any when I'm in any part of the state 177 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.960 in North Carolina, whether I'm in Wilmington or what's the Salem or Durham or 178 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:45.480 Chapel Hill or anywhere, or you know, then I do oftentimes then when 179 00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:48.240 I'm more than when I'm in California. You mentioned in your book how when 180 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.039 you left Chapel Hill when you graduated, and we're moving on kind of what 181 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:54.840 the next phase of your life, that it really felt like for the first 182 00:12:54.879 --> 00:12:58.759 time you were leaving like a place that felt like home. I attended to 183 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.480 Wake for a short amount of time, and having lived in Winston, like 184 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.799 there very much is that like affinity and that kind of Southern hospitality culture that 185 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:09.000 really like, even as someone who grew up in the South, but a 186 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:11.960 different part of the South, Big twelve country, like it is, like 187 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.120 the culture there is just so strong when it comes to these college sports because 188 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:18.120 they are so close together. And Wake actually used to be even closer to 189 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.279 all those schools than it is now. It moved from actual Wake Forest, 190 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.159 which is closer to Durham and Raleigh. Yeah, tobacco money brought it further 191 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:30.960 east. So yeah, yeah, I'm tobacco money. Tobacco money. And 192 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:33.000 that's the other thing I think that's important to recognize. It's just like, 193 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.759 if we could talk about economics a little bit, is that because it was 194 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:39.279 Carolina was a port state, and because it didn't have a large cotton it 195 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.600 didn't have a large cotton industry the way that even Virginia did, or even 196 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.759 South Carolina or Georgia did, tobacco just became something. And then all those 197 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:50.200 places are in close proxity just because of like where you could grow stuff. 198 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:56.519 Right, So we've talked about some schools. We talked about only one player 199 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:00.279 so far, which is Michael Jordan. We've talked about, However, you've 200 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:03.840 mentioned a lot of coaches and one of the reasons we wanted to have you 201 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.200 on is because Roy Williams, who was an assistant coach and then later a 202 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.159 head coach at North Carolina. Was also a coach for a while at the 203 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.440 University of Kansas, when Jason Saidakis was growing up and was a big fan. 204 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:22.679 And people have seen a lot of similarities between Roy Williams and Ted Lasso. 205 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.080 But first I want to go back a step to Roy's mentor coach, 206 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:31.399 which was Dean Smith. And there's a lot of talk about coach John Wooden, 207 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:35.679 famed UCLA coach, and Ted Lasso, but I also see some Dean 208 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.960 Smith characteristics and philosophies pop up from time to time. What can you how 209 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:46.120 can you how would you describe maybe the character and the coaching and the success 210 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.360 of Dean Smith, so the way that like, I because like it's funny 211 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:52.799 you mentioned that, because it's like very much again we didn't talk about like 212 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:56.039 like you didn't hear much about Michael Georgian, And even when you talked about 213 00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.200 players, you would hear more about people like Phil Ford. You'd hear more 214 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:05.639 about James Worthy as much as you hear about Michael at North Carolina. But 215 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.360 more than anything, Dean Smith is very much kind of the patron saint just 216 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:15.200 because he was seen as this guy who quote unquote did it right. One 217 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.039 of the things that was really well known is he never cursed Craig. But 218 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.600 if I'm wrong, Like the only time year Ted Lasso curse is in the 219 00:15:20.759 --> 00:15:24.679 series season one finale where he says, when the whole fucking thing right? 220 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.000 And it's and that's like and then you're kind of like, oh wait, 221 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:31.440 because there's a lot of cursing and Ted Lasso. Of course you have Roy 222 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.679 Canny, you have Kaylee, you ever right, you know, but you 223 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:37.480 have Rebecca. And then so when you hear you know, Ted Ted saying 224 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:39.480 you know, when the whole fucking thing, You're like, oh, I 225 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:43.039 heard that from him. It's a bit of a shock the first time you 226 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.159 hear it, for sure. Yeah, it's it's like it's like hearing your 227 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:52.159 minister a curse. But also like there was always this feeling that again, 228 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.879 like one of the things that it was funny. I remember Kenny the Jet 229 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.200 Smith, you know, you know who of course is on and at the 230 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.879 NBA he did a beautiful, beautiful eulogy. You should go back and watch 231 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.840 it. In twenty fifteen, Everdean Smith died where he said like Dean never 232 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.200 talked about winning, and that's very similar to Ted Lasso. He just he 233 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:18.320 cared a lot about making these players men, making these boys men. I 234 00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.039 mean, there's that famous saying with Dean Smith that he that he was the 235 00:16:22.080 --> 00:16:26.879 only person who could keep Michael Jordan under twenty in the game, and that 236 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:30.759 is very true because it was very much teamwork working together. But then there 237 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:34.600 was also the other aspect with Dean Smith, which was that he was an 238 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:41.759 outspoken civil rights advocate and and you have to remember, being a white coach 239 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:48.159 in the South, particularly Interview University was demos built by enslaved people. That 240 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.320 was a very big deal. So there's a legendary story of he brought it 241 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.399 one of his players to sit down and met with him at the Southern Pines 242 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:59.639 restaurant in Chapel Hill. It basically led to the desigregation of the university. 243 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:06.480 And that I think more than any kind of like winning, I think that 244 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:11.759 that's all that that mindset has always kind of been in the Zeitgei set. 245 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.319 Not only is Dean Smith, you know this, this this legendary coach, 246 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:18.599 but he's also this upstanding, upright guy, and on top of that, 247 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.359 he's a civil rights advocate, and he was seen as a guy who quote 248 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.200 unquote did things right, which is to say that almost all of the students 249 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:32.680 went back and graduated or graduated or stayed four years. That kind of image 250 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:36.960 is a little out dad because there was that report. Of course, there 251 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:41.559 was the there was an academic scandal unc and it's found that the beginnings of 252 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:47.000 that cheating scandal began under Dean Smith. And this was before the television contracts 253 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:51.920 became a big part of the universities, sponsorships and all of the things that 254 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.039 we now associate with college sports. So it's a little fracture, but that 255 00:17:56.240 --> 00:18:00.680 image still exists, and this this idea of like the Carol line of way 256 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:07.599 still exists in especially in Chapel l Yeah, the swearing part cracks me up. 257 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.319 Dean Smith's players and the coaches that came after him under his tree tend 258 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.119 to be like Dean Smith quote unquote disciples. And so the current coach, 259 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.000 Hubert Davis, he's known as not swearing. Roy Smith was known as not 260 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:25.880 swearing, except there was one time when Smith in his last game coaching Kansas 261 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.240 or yeah, sorry, Roy Williams last game coaching Kansas, they lose the 262 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:34.160 national championship by three points to Syracuse in two thousand and three, and he's 263 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:38.359 coming off the court and the reporter asked him about rumors that he might be 264 00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.559 the next coach at North Carolina and he says, in his kind of like 265 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:48.599 southern Kansas drawl, I don't give a shit about North Carolina right now. 266 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:53.200 And it was just great CBS National Television, a very ted Lasso at the 267 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:57.039 end of season one moment. Yeah it was because like, yeah, I 268 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.160 think the whole thing that it was was that in the background of that is 269 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.839 in two thousand, after Bill guth Richard retired, Bill Gunther, who was 270 00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:08.680 also one of the assistant coaches at un See, Dean and Bill Guthler sh 271 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:12.799 had tried to bring Roy back because he'd been he'd been in Kansas and the 272 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:17.079 other thing about Roy and we could get a little more into this. Roy 273 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:21.599 took them to Final four, to Jayhawks, to final fours, He took 274 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.119 them to lead conferences, national, you know, regular season championships, but 275 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:29.200 he could never get to the title. He can never get them to the 276 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:33.160 Promised Land. And then basically there was that moment. It was after Syracuse, 277 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.599 after the loss at Syracuse and people just would have been asking because North 278 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.720 Carolina had just evolved into a dumpster fire under Matt Doherty, who was part 279 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.279 of that legendary team that with Michael Jordan and Sam Perkins, James Worthy and 280 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.680 all them. And then like basically the reporters like, you know, everybody's 281 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.480 asking about North Carolina and he's like, look, and Roy being from I 282 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:57.160 think the other reason why he so Roy Williams was so beloved, at least 283 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:02.000 in North Carolina was because he's from Black Mountain, North Carolina, which is 284 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:04.200 very rural, and as a result, you know, they're just filling up. 285 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:08.160 He's from here, he's one of us. But but you know he's 286 00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.559 just like, as a journalists, like, I understand you got to ask 287 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.599 that question, but right now it's not very nice, and like you can 288 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:15.839 tell he's very frustrated, and then he just kind of just says, I 289 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:18.960 could give a shit about North Carolina. I got I got ten kids in 290 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.640 there that I love, and it was and then of course he's kind of 291 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:26.440 you know, that was a very much an Then, of course, a 292 00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.200 few days later, Roy announces that he that he's going to North Carolina, 293 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.960 and then of course. In two thousand and five, they win the championship 294 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:41.000 and Roy's first championship. Do you see any other similarities between Roy Williams and 295 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.240 Ted Lasso that stand out to you from the North Carolina perspective? We can 296 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:48.880 see them here from the Kansas side, but like, what do you see 297 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.720 from year end of the spectrum? Yeah, I mean, I think what 298 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:56.400 I see is at Roy very much. You know, he does care about 299 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.359 his kids very much as people all so, you know a lot. One 300 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.599 of the things that always frustrated fans like myself is that Roy Williams never called 301 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.240 the time out, and it was just endlessly frustrating. There were probably a 302 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:11.599 few games where he threw, but then there were plenty more where he just 303 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.839 let the players play and that kind of I guess you could say that kind 304 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:18.039 of confidence in your players. On one end, it's frustrating, he's just 305 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.079 like, come on, you don't want to ruin the onement and call a 306 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.200 time out. But on the other end, he trusted his players enough. 307 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:29.039 During that time, he had people like Tyler Hans Burrow and Danny Greene, 308 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.039 It's Sean May and some of them went on to become assistant coaches for him 309 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.480 very much trusting in his players and trusting in their skills. I think that's 310 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:44.240 a very ted Lasset thing in that you imbue your players and you imbue your 311 00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.559 team around you with the confidence and the belief that they could do things for 312 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.200 themselves. I think I think again that that's something that you saw you see 313 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.079 Ted do throughout the season, is he kind of lets Nate the great do 314 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.880 things, you know, in the same way he very much Roy very much 315 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.200 could see. He very much tried to set up Hubert for success. And 316 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.319 like, I just want to if I can defend Hubert right now, because 317 00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:10.359 I know he's going to be getting under a lot of fire right now, 318 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:15.279 if I could kind of talk my shot right now is that Hubert, Yeah, 319 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:18.039 I get that, like he's so great, but like hey, people 320 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.000 who are talking about him getting fired right now are talking out of their boss 321 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.119 because he took them to the finals last year. B I think the other 322 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.200 thing is that the kids got out there a lot of pressure on top of 323 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.680 that, this isn't this is still Roy's recruited class, so you know, 324 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:37.160 these are kids that Roy recruited. These are not kids that he recruited. 325 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:41.240 So there was always going to be a natural gap. And then on top 326 00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:44.519 of that, last year was such a fluke because it was just like toward 327 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.839 the end because I went to go watch a game in Philadelphia where Cable of 328 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:52.559 kind of flipped on the switch and just like went hard. But but but 329 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.200 all those so I think that so sorry, I just had to defend Hubert. 330 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.599 And also and I think it is important to have a blackhoat coaching black 331 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.519 kids. But but anyway, that's that's my tangent. But yeah, I 332 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.400 think that there is some similarities, respect for the players, respect for the 333 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:11.720 process, recognizing that it's more about building a team and building a long a 334 00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:15.400 longer lasting operation. I think that the difference. I think that Roy, 335 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:19.759 very much like Dan Smith, was having trouble adapting to the new era of 336 00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.319 college basketball where you have your one and duns, you have kids, you 337 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.200 just want to go straight to the NBA. UM And I agree, you 338 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.559 know, I have a lot of criticisms of college sports. I think it's 339 00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.519 in a lot of ways it's a scam. But I think that Roy was 340 00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:37.839 still married to that old idea that Dean Smith taught him, Like you build 341 00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:41.559 a longer lasting operation. You built you built this cohesive unit, and that 342 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.519 leads you to the promise, and that leads you to win. Not thinking 343 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.759 about winning gets you to winning. And I think that's very And then also 344 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.440 you know, just the Roy very much. Obviously he would get frustrated at 345 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.440 times, and you know he would kind of rip off his jacket. But 346 00:23:56.160 --> 00:24:00.039 but but but also just kind of that sunny disposition and believing the best. 347 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:08.200 What is the perception overall of basketball fans in North Carolina of the University of 348 00:24:08.359 --> 00:24:14.720 Kansas basketball program, considering their shared history? And I understand at this point 349 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.200 in history too, it might be a little bit raw because in the twenty 350 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.319 twenty two NCUBAA Tournament, Jesus came back from a huge deficit to beat North 351 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:27.640 Carolina by three. But overall, what's the perception of University of Kansas basketball 352 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:32.920 from a North Carolina perspective? Yeah, I mean I think that So again, 353 00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.440 this is this is this goes back to the Roy Williams lawris and like 354 00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.920 shortly after Roy Williams the first time, you know, his first season back 355 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.440 in North Carolina, after North Carolina was knocked out. If you remember, 356 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.680 Roy showed up to a Kansas game with like a with a Jayhawk sweaters and 357 00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.400 that was scene is like really bad form that was seen, Like, dude, 358 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:53.599 you're at North Carolina. Now. I think that in a way, 359 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.640 and then a lot of people wouldn't want to admit this. I think that 360 00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:02.039 there's a little bit of back and forth because on one and I think Kansas 361 00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:04.359 recognized because on one end, because Dean Smith also, you know, passed 362 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:10.440 roots in Kansas in the fall Gallan tradition. So I think Kansas lives rent 363 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:12.440 free in our head. I remember in twenty seventeen when North Carolina had his 364 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:18.599 championship run, when Kansas lost to Oregon. Was it yea in Kansas City? 365 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.480 Yeah, in Kansas City. I remember hoping to God that Oregon would 366 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:27.160 beat Kansas because I just did not want North Carolina to play Kansas because I 367 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:30.799 was so afraid because like, I don't think North Carolina has beaten Kansas since 368 00:25:30.920 --> 00:25:36.720 Roy has come to North Carolina. So there's very much this feeling of from 369 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:41.119 an outsider's perspective, I think that there's always this feeling for Kansas that Roy 370 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:44.240 loves Kansas more than he loves North Carolina, because he says he loves both. 371 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.319 Yea, you know, so you know last year in the final was 372 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:53.200 called the Roy Williams Invitational, and correct me if I'm wrong. In two 373 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:57.079 in the nineteen nineties, in the final four, Roy's first final four, 374 00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:06.119 when he when they after because they were banned their first right, Roy actually 375 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:11.720 did Dean Smith and Dan Smith was ejected and it really kind of like it 376 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:15.279 was really kind of hurt like even though he won and just seemed got to 377 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.720 go to the finals, it really kind of weighed on him to see his 378 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:22.759 mentor this guy who's like his father be ejected just like for this kind of 379 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.720 conflagration. I've always viewed the relationship between Kansas fans and North Carolina fans as 380 00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:33.839 kind of a quote unquote special relationship like that between England and the United States, 381 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.640 where I think, and we've seen this in the last twenty years in 382 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:42.240 World Cups when the United States plays England and both fan bases kind of live 383 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:47.400 rent free in the other's head. I know that when Roy left Kansas to 384 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:49.559 go to North Carolina, there were a lot of fans that were like sad, 385 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.799 mad and probably lost perspective that North Carolina was the only school that Roy 386 00:26:55.880 --> 00:27:00.839 Williams would leave Kansas to go to but at the same time they just couldn't 387 00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:06.160 really contain their big feelings. And then it happened again, the inferiority complex 388 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.200 when Roy won those championships with North Carolina. And now everything smoothed over. 389 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:15.599 But I'm sure that we'll get another flare up in the future of basketball. 390 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.640 I mean right now, right now, I mean Kansas Scott knocked out by 391 00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:25.000 Arkansas UM and then and then my Targill didn't even make it to the tournament 392 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:29.279 UM just because it was just it was kind of a disaster. But but 393 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.599 but but yeah, eventually, like they are going to clash again. It's 394 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.279 you know, it's it's fate. Uh, It's it's batman versus a joker. 395 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.000 It's not quite North Carolina due because North Carolina Duke is shaped out of 396 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:47.160 close proximity and a lot more hate and no there is this roal hatred like 397 00:27:47.359 --> 00:27:51.079 no love, zero, there is no there is. You know, I 398 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:52.279 have friends who went to Duke, and I say to them, like, 399 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:56.000 look, three hundred and sixty five, three hundred and sixty three days of 400 00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:59.359 the year, we're cool, three hundred and sixty four on on late beers, 401 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.359 But like on those days we hate each other and we will go out 402 00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:07.440 of each other Like it's funny. I become friends with Kim Ken jong On 403 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:12.279 from you know, the actor who went to do for undergrad and UNC for 404 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:18.759 met and like we've kind of struck up a kind of fun relationship on Twitter, 405 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.119 but like we we joke with each other. It's like like because he 406 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:25.599 was seen taking a selfie with himself at Cameron in Noor and I tweeted at 407 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:30.640 him when when Carolina being took us like hey having fun, you know where 408 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.799 was Kansas. It's kind of like, Okay, we understand that's where That's 409 00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:37.880 what Brad Dean Smith's become Dean Smith. That's you know, that's what kind 410 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:41.079 of you know, Roy of course came up through there. There's just recognition 411 00:28:41.240 --> 00:28:45.359 that that that Kansas is where basketball kind of started. You know, we 412 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.480 have respect for it, and it's like it sucked that we lost, and 413 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:53.519 like I think it's more if Duke is more fueled by hatred, I think 414 00:28:53.599 --> 00:29:02.039 Kansas it's fueled by respect but also terror fear. For his part, Jason 415 00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:07.279 Sadekis has shown himself to be the consummate diplomat because although he is a huge 416 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.759 Kansas Jayhawks fan. I've noticed he's worn I'm pretty sure it's um the Carolina 417 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:18.880 Blue Jordans ones a couple of times in episodes, and he's always wearing Jordan's. 418 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:25.599 So he's very respectful and even I would say reverend of aspects of Carolina 419 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.279 basketball history. Well, Roy helped recruit Michael. That's the other thing people 420 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.880 forget. And there's you know, anybody who's watched the Last Dance, Roy 421 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.880 had some of the best lines and in the Last Dance, like you know, 422 00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:38.559 obviously he helped recruit it. He told Dan Smith about him. And 423 00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:41.839 there's that line where you know, Michael Jordan says, I want to be 424 00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.599 the best player here and then Roy says, well, you gotta work harder 425 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:45.960 than everybody, and then Michel says I worked as harder than everybody else. 426 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.680 He says, I thought you just said you want to be the greatest, 427 00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:52.839 you know, And there's that line where Roy says, like, uh, 428 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.440 you know, Michael Jordan's the only guy I know who has switched to turn 429 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:57.880 off and he never freaking turned it off, and like, you know, 430 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:03.640 this is so yeah, Like I mean, you know you can't talk about 431 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.079 in this you know, you can't talk about the legacy of Michael Jordan without 432 00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:14.119 talking about Roy Williams. Yeah, yeah, all right, So switching gears 433 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:17.559 just a bit. You mentioned earlier that you finished a book in twenty twenty 434 00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:21.599 one. The title of the book is We're Not Broken, Changing the autism 435 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:26.720 conversation. You are an individual who lives with autism and who wrote the book 436 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.400 essentially to shine a light on what it is actually like to be autistic, 437 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.240 to be an autistic person. Yeah, so what was the process that led 438 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:37.319 you to want to start writing this book? Yeah? So, I mean 439 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.680 I'm a polt, you know again, I'm a political journalist by day, 440 00:30:40.839 --> 00:30:44.960 right, So it started out as I was at a party in twenty fifteen 441 00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.440 a guy with the name of Tim Mack, who's now an NPR great journalist. 442 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.960 He's been reporting a lot in Ukraine. He offered me a drink and 443 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.839 I said, um, oh, I don't drink because the autos a spectrum 444 00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.400 in a medicine on mix. I take cam mix with alcohol. It's that 445 00:30:59.480 --> 00:31:00.480 what I'm saying, Come out, have a drink. Like he said, 446 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.119 Oh, there's a lot of autistic people in DC. You should write about 447 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:06.759 that. And at the time I was really new in my career, so 448 00:31:06.759 --> 00:31:07.640 I was like, yeah, when I get better at being a journalist. 449 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.279 At the time, I was covering you know, economics and politics. I 450 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:12.960 was happy doing that. That What happened was I was working at a place 451 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:19.039 called National Journal and be Um Publications print edition was gonna shut down. So 452 00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.359 my editor, a gay the name of Richard just who's just a lovely human 453 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.400 being. He said, I just want to have these kind of just bold 454 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:29.680 pieces, you know, the romanos, like what are they gonna do? 455 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:34.039 Fire me at the end of the year. So I pitched this idea about 456 00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:37.400 it, like what it's like to be an autistic in DC, kind of 457 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.359 like a fun, little chatty, kind of like piece about the like insider 458 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.279 DC. That's what I thought it would be. And then he really kind 459 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:47.839 of pushed me, which I feel what a good editor should do, to 460 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.559 say, well, why should this exist? And I said, well, 461 00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:52.920 I think we focused too much on trying to cure out to people and not 462 00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:56.279 enough. I'm trying to help out just two people live more fully lost. 463 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.359 It's like, there's your piece though, and at the time, again, 464 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:04.839 this is twenty eight this was twenty fifteen, so if you remember Donald Trump 465 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.839 at this time starts running for president. And it was the second Republican presidential 466 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:15.559 debate where they asked Trump about vaccines and his believe about vaccines and autism. 467 00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:21.640 And what was interesting was that Trump of courses autism is in the epidemic, 468 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:25.759 you know, and he talks about the vaccines and um, which kind of 469 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.440 was real proudly to how you would handled COVID. But but but the other 470 00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:37.000 thing that stood out to me was that arguably more was Ben Carson, who 471 00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:42.039 is a pediatric neurosurgeon. Uh said, you know, kind of gave Trouble 472 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.200 a pass. Someone who should know better. Yes, yes, someone who 473 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:50.079 should know better, someone who's who's who's very smart. And that was that. 474 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:52.720 That was the moment. Like and then like, you know, again, 475 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:54.119 I grew up in in California, and I thought, Okay, Trump 476 00:32:54.279 --> 00:32:58.240 is you know, an unorthodox Brew Republican, but he's a Republican in the 477 00:32:58.359 --> 00:33:01.519 West. But I grew up in southern California where there's a lot of you 478 00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:07.039 know, you know, Roy Kent's yoga moms, you know, who don't 479 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.799 want to vaccinate their kids because they don't want to put toxins in their kids' 480 00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:15.839 bodies or something. But like so so so, like I thought, wait, 481 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:17.799 a lot, you know, look, Trump is Trump, but like 482 00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.440 there's a lot of people who believe that. And my feeling was, Okay, 483 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.759 I hear a lot of politicians talking about it, because it wasn't just 484 00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.079 Donald Trump who was talking about it. Barack Obama talked about it. John 485 00:33:29.119 --> 00:33:31.319 McKay talked about it. These are not people who are ill informed. These 486 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.519 are very smart people who are believing this. And my feeling is as a 487 00:33:35.559 --> 00:33:37.319 political journalism is like, Okay, we have a lot of bad information about 488 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.720 autism. That was when we have really bad policies about autisms. So that 489 00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:44.319 was really what kind of spurred the book. And really so I wrote that 490 00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.240 peace for National journal And I think the next question is like, Okay, 491 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:51.319 how does that bad information translating to But it's like to be autistic in America. 492 00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:52.920 So as a result, what I did as I kind of hit the 493 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:55.839 road. I traveled to West Virginia. I traveled to Michigan. I traveled 494 00:33:55.880 --> 00:34:00.400 to Tennessee. I traveled to the bar area, California. I traveled to 495 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.640 a few of the places, and I really just tried to get in an 496 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:08.920 understanding of what it's like to be autistic America, and how we are misunderstandings 497 00:34:08.920 --> 00:34:13.840 a watch is negatively effect to autistic people, but also what a world, 498 00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:17.559 what a society could look like if we're affirming the people too are with are 499 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:22.480 autistic. Right, Because one of the praises of your book is that it 500 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.480 humanizes folks with autism and people who are on the spectrum in ways that where 501 00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:29.440 they feel seen in ways and maybe they hadn't been seen before. And you're 502 00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.400 able to bring not only your own sort of personal perspective. It's not exactly 503 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:36.719 a memoir, but you use a lot of your own personal experiences. But 504 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:40.079 you we've been in so seamlessly with folks who are on the spectrum from kind 505 00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.760 of across the country, who are in a bunch of different disciplines. Like 506 00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:45.280 you talked to professors, you talk to just folks who are, you know, 507 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:49.599 working in sort of regular retail day jobs. You talk to all sorts 508 00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:52.039 of different folks who are in all sorts of different areas to try and to 509 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.440 try and show like, hey, this is not one size fits all, 510 00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:00.159 rejecting these stereotypes and kind of helping folks who are on the spectrum who don't 511 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.440 have an autism diagnosis to understand. Okay, the onus is on folks like 512 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:07.320 me to say, like, what is the way that we're making You know 513 00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:13.760 that my sort of internalized ableism is keeping me from making this a better space 514 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:15.960 for everyone to be more inclusive. And that's like one of the things the 515 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:20.639 book does such a good job because you even those stories along with data and 516 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:22.559 studies in such a beautiful way. Yeah, I mean, I really thank 517 00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:25.960 you for saying that. I think one of the things that I realized that, 518 00:35:27.079 --> 00:35:29.840 Like I think initially when the book came out, when I started writing 519 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:30.679 the book, I think a lot of who wanted it to be a memoir 520 00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.480 and then you're wrong. It has started parts of my own personal life in 521 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.199 it. But I think that, you know, the impulse as a journalist 522 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:39.280 is to always be you know, is like I realized, you know, 523 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.239 my story is only in bad It's one story. And I think that the 524 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.119 more, you know, anytime I thought about doing a memoir, I realized, 525 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:50.320 oh, there are other people who I wonder if other people are experienced 526 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.280 in this too, And then I was just kind and it was just like 527 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.880 any time that I wanted to make it just about me. I realized, 528 00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.800 Oh, there's probably something larger going on, or I would just think to 529 00:35:58.880 --> 00:36:01.320 myself, Yeah, but I'm only one person and who's just leaving out. 530 00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.719 And I think that was really one of the important things that I wanted to 531 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:08.639 do is I want to include as many people as possible when writing about them. 532 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.079 Writing about this well, one of the things that you touch on in 533 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:16.599 the very beginning of the book is that the conversation about autistic folks was led 534 00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:21.840 for so long by folks like their parents or their caretakers or other people who 535 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.039 are who are well meaning, but yes, don't have that same experience. 536 00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:30.199 And so I love that you go to first person accounts of autistic folks and 537 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:31.880 bring those in. So, what are some of the like, maybe the 538 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.239 most unexpected responses to the book that you've received and maybe the most fulfilling are 539 00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:39.920 kind of surprising. I think the ones that are always that are always fulfilling 540 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:45.079 are the ones. It's funny, like a lot of times I get email 541 00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:53.119 or I get DMS from people who have just been newly diagnosed as autistic and 542 00:36:53.199 --> 00:37:00.360 they say their book help them understand more. Or I get emails from parents 543 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:05.239 or grandparents sometimes of autistic people when they say, you know it's you know, 544 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.519 your book made me realize, like, hey, I need to you 545 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:08.519 know, put the focus on my kid and make sure that I think about 546 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:12.760 what my kid or my grandkid wants now what I want. And I think 547 00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:17.760 those are always the ones that like, um always means something because it shows 548 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.519 that you actually change their mind, you help, and it made them rethink 549 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:24.559 how they make sure that how they look out for their loved ones well being. 550 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:27.559 And then the other ones, you know, like I said, with 551 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:32.559 newly diagnosed people or with people who realize they might be autistic, like when 552 00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:37.559 they realize that they're not fieled versions of normal and that they realize that there's 553 00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:43.239 this like larger community, that always amazing because like I'll say this, like 554 00:37:43.719 --> 00:37:45.039 when I was a kid growing up, like I was diagnosed when I was 555 00:37:45.079 --> 00:37:47.679 like it formally diagnosed when I was like eight or nine, and like the 556 00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.360 understanding of autism was changing as I was growing up. You know, you 557 00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:54.079 know that you're different. You may not know all the labels, but like 558 00:37:54.199 --> 00:38:00.280 you know that you don't belong or you know that you're being ostracized by your 559 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:06.599 kids on the schoolyard. It wasn't until I started writing about autism myself. 560 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:10.519 It wasn't as until I started meeting other autistic people interviewing other autistic people, 561 00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:15.679 that I learned that it was possible for me to have a life, fulfilling 562 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:17.960 life on my own, because, like I had heard all the horror stories 563 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.840 about like you're never gonna be able to grow up or graduate college, or 564 00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:24.840 or live on your own, or get married or any of those things. 565 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:30.760 And I think that it was very liberating and very refreshing and reassuring to me 566 00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:35.679 through interviewing all these types of people that like, wow, I could actually 567 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:39.719 have a good, in fulfilling and happy life. So when that, when 568 00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:44.119 I see that, I get to relate, because like that was such a 569 00:38:44.239 --> 00:38:47.199 revelation for me when I was writing and reporting the book. So when other 570 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:54.800 people, other autistic people particularly, get that revelation, that is so reassuring, 571 00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:59.440 and it's something that, like im, it's the best feeling in the 572 00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.840 world. It truly is one of the things that can make folks feel invisible 573 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.480 or have a difficult time imagining their place in the world. In our society 574 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:14.119 kind of centers around depictions of different individuals or communities in the media. In 575 00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:19.280 your opinion, are there any depictions of folks on the spectrum and popular media 576 00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.400 that you find particularly constructive or helpful and if not, what might that look 577 00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:27.280 like? You know, of course there have been some really bad portrayals, 578 00:39:27.480 --> 00:39:30.559 right, yes, yeah's like I mean, I mean they did. There 579 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.880 have been like the super computer geeks, the big bank theory stuff. There's 580 00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:37.079 been There's been some really terrible depict you know, I know people on one 581 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:42.000 end rain Man was important because it was like the first time people saw autism. 582 00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:45.400 But then on the other ended, it really reinforced some bad stereotypes about 583 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.519 autism. So like that, So there are so like it was really kind 584 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.519 of a mixed blessing in some ways. But I think that, you know, 585 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.599 I've been watching on Netflix the show Extraordinary Attorney Wou, which I think 586 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.280 is on Netflix. It's fantastic. There was that many mini film that picks 587 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:06.880 are Dead called Loop, which was incredible. It's it was cast with a 588 00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.639 non speaking autistic girl as the main character, Madison Bandy to The girl who 589 00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:15.159 was playing this not speaking autistic girl was actually a non speaking autistic girl of 590 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:20.599 color. It was one of the best depictions of autism I've ever seen. 591 00:40:21.920 --> 00:40:23.480 I think that it's getting better. I think the more that you get more 592 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:29.599 autistic people in the writer's room, and more autistic people even just consulting on 593 00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:32.400 a show, I think has been helpful. You know. I think that 594 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:36.679 because, like I think what I was worried about when shows like A Typical 595 00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:38.679 came out and there was kind of a backlash because a lot of autistic people 596 00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:44.679 didn't like the portrayals. I think I was worried on one end that movies 597 00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:49.480 do studios and television studios would just stop doing portrayals of autism. You know, 598 00:40:49.599 --> 00:40:52.039 for a while that was the case. But I think now there's more 599 00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.119 of a oh, we could maybe do more. If we do more, 600 00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:00.000 you know, stuff with autistic folks input, then will get more people who 601 00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:05.079 want to watch it. Uh, you know, I think that's been where 602 00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:07.239 you're seeing it more. But of course it's not that we're it needs to 603 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.519 be, but it's still is better. I think the fact that other movies 604 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:15.559 that have positively depicted depicted disability not necessarily odd to movies like Coda, Uh, 605 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:21.239 did a Fantastic did Fantastically Want an Academy Award last year. I think 606 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:28.000 that gives um, Hollywood the incentive to to make more, you know, 607 00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:32.440 disability minded movies. So it's still a long way to go. Um. 608 00:41:32.639 --> 00:41:36.199 You know, what I've noticed is that like a lot of times when they 609 00:41:36.280 --> 00:41:39.880 have didn't been when autism depictions aren't explicit, they've actually been better than like 610 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:44.239 when they're they're employed than when they're actually explicit. So like I think, 611 00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:46.880 uh, what was that one with Denzel Washington, Roman Israel, Esquire or 612 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.760 whatever. We're like, it's kind of implied he's autistic. That's great. 613 00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:54.400 Uh, there was obviously community with Abduh, you know, Danny Putty who's 614 00:41:54.400 --> 00:41:59.519 also on Apple Plus on Apple TV with the Quastic Quest. I thought that 615 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:05.880 I thought that show is fantastic when it comes to pinting autism, but it 616 00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:08.960 still is getting I think it's there's still a lot of skittishness. I think 617 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:14.800 about autism in a way you don't necessarily see with talking around. Hollywood still 618 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:17.039 messes up deafness a lot, still messes up blindness a lot. But I 619 00:42:17.199 --> 00:42:22.800 think that there is still those disabilities still exists in the public imagination in a 620 00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:28.039 way that autism has just just started to and I think one of the things 621 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:30.760 that I say too, and I say this to my friends and media who 622 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:31.960 want to write about disability but are kind of afraid of it, is like, 623 00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:35.639 yes, you can initially mess up, but the only way to get 624 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:39.000 to good depictions of autism and media like in portrayals, is by constantly reporting, 625 00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:43.039 constantly telling stories, getting better at it and building trust. And the 626 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:45.320 same way, the only way I think we're going to get good portrayals of 627 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:51.280 autism is starting by doing kind of really rough portrayals of autism and learning and 628 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:53.920 learning how to do better and getting better and listening to autistic people and getting 629 00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:57.760 that feedback, you know, because like I think even the fact that that 630 00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:02.559 movie See It Did, which was so terrible and got such bad reviews, 631 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:06.719 I think that in some ways that on one end, it was like it 632 00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:08.280 was good to seeing people saying, no, this is a bad portrayal, 633 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.159 like even Tina Fey and Amy Pohler made fun of it at the Golden Globes. 634 00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:15.440 But on the other I think what it did isn't shown Hollywood, Like, 635 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:19.760 oh, if we do a really half portrayal of autism, there's gonna 636 00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:22.719 be some backlunh. Well, two things about what you said stick out to 637 00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:24.400 me. One is that, like one of the core tenets of your book 638 00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:29.880 is how people with autism so often get pigeonholed into like tech like steam or 639 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:31.840 sorry, into steam disciplines. Like it's like okay, like you can do 640 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:35.880 the numbers, you can do the coding this and that, and you're you're 641 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:37.719 you know you you say often in your book like I'm living proof, like 642 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.960 I didn't want to do that stuff. I wanted to be a journalist. 643 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.719 I wanted to be a reporter, and like that's part of the thing is 644 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:46.559 like with in media and Hollywood wherever folks are making this media, like having 645 00:43:46.599 --> 00:43:51.159 those folks in the room and knowing that people with autism are capable of that, 646 00:43:51.320 --> 00:43:54.079 Like that is that that in itself as a big piece of the conversation. 647 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:58.840 And then two, I love that you pointed out the character and community 648 00:43:58.880 --> 00:44:00.760 a bed just because I feel like that was maybe even like a little bit 649 00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:05.079 ahead of the curve, and it did it portrays he portrayed in a way 650 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:07.800 to where I don't remember if it is explicit in the show. Maybe it 651 00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:09.840 is, but like it wasn't the whole. It wasn't the focus of his 652 00:44:09.880 --> 00:44:13.800 whole character, like he was a whole character. Yeah, and that is 653 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:17.360 that it's so important too. Yeah, I think they're like allowing autistic people 654 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:21.199 to be their whole selves and not just having that one part of Yeah, 655 00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:23.760 obviously it's an indelible part of who they are, but like they can have 656 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:28.400 wise, they can date, they can screw up, they can you know, 657 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.880 go to school, they can have jobs. Like, I think that 658 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.679 that's incredibly important. I think having autistic people who are just you know, 659 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:38.239 kind of just living through life and who aren't hyper slavants. I think it's 660 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.920 you know, super important a depiction that we see in media. A group 661 00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:49.760 of people that are very represented in media are those of reporters. We see 662 00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:53.960 those in tons of shows. And to bring the conversation back to Ted Lasso 663 00:44:54.239 --> 00:45:00.559 just a bit, how did you feel about the portray ale and behavior of 664 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:07.199 our friend Trent Krim from The Independent, especially his kind of departure from The 665 00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:09.920 Independent around the end of season two. Oh yeah, no, so it 666 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:15.079 was funny, like I this is this is a true story, like not 667 00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.079 this last Halloween, but the Halloween before. So like I report on Capitol 668 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:22.840 Hall a lot Mitt Romney dressed up as Ted Lasso, and I cannot believe 669 00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:27.159 that, Like I missed the chance to say Eric Garcia The Independent to Tim 670 00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:30.400 mitt Rowney that he was dressed as Ted Lasso, I've missed that. I'm 671 00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:34.400 going to be kicking myself with the rest of my life that. But so 672 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:37.400 first off, I should say that, like, you know, British journalism 673 00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:38.920 is very different from American journalism, and I think that's been one of the 674 00:45:38.960 --> 00:45:42.920 things I've learned cover working for a British newspaper like The Independent, but just 675 00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.760 trying to you know, see itself more as a global newspaper than just a 676 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.519 British newspaper. But like I mean, I think I think that he was 677 00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:53.039 definitely one of the things I joked about with my colleagues that like when he 678 00:45:53.360 --> 00:45:59.599 basically outed his source snate, and also that he kind of didn't really ask 679 00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:05.599 Ted comments um, like like he kind of went around it when he asked 680 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:08.480 Ted recomment about it, like like in that one episode before he outs him 681 00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:13.960 like it was it was. It was very much a breach of journalistic ethics. 682 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:20.559 Um. But Trent is a very fascinating character because I think that there 683 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.239 is you know, you know, and like before I ever got into politics, 684 00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:25.960 I loved sports, you know, sports punt Retreat. I mean it 685 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:31.719 kind of just show how, you know, Trent and Roy for the brief 686 00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:37.480 moment he's a pundit do kind of show how sports media can sometimes contribute to 687 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:44.679 the worst aspects of sports. Uh that was, And of course Roy at 688 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:49.639 some point says screw this, you know. And of course Trent feels very 689 00:46:49.719 --> 00:46:52.519 bad about what he did, and he outs himself and he ends up getting 690 00:46:52.599 --> 00:46:55.320 kicked on his key start. I like the character of Trent grim so I'm 691 00:46:55.360 --> 00:47:00.079 interested to see what comes next for him. So this pertains to both the 692 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.039 show and your book. You mentioned in your book that you are a huge 693 00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:06.039 fan of rock and metal music and that you grew up wanting to be a 694 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:08.360 guitarist and a musician, and you even equipping your book that you used to 695 00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:13.599 kind of have this debate with your dad about whether David Lee Roth or Sammy 696 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:16.280 Hagar was the better Van Halen singer. And so I'm just curious, where 697 00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:19.880 are you guys. Okay, it's funny because that's the same thing. There's 698 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:22.440 a little joke about that, And see, I want to Lasso. So 699 00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:25.239 I'm wondering where you fall in that debate. Yeah, when they play against 700 00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:29.960 Everton, yes, coach Beard gets fifty one fifty Yes, then he's like 701 00:47:30.199 --> 00:47:32.519 the best Van Halen singer. And the Beard's like ahm, and he's like, 702 00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:38.840 it's not Sammy Hagar. Don't get wrong, prefer sam So, you 703 00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:42.440 know, I like a lot of Sammy Hagar stuffing, like Sammy's a better 704 00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:45.519 singer, don't get me wrong. I think like musically, but I mean, 705 00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:50.559 those first four or five Van Halen albums, you can't beat them. 706 00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:53.519 You can't beat them. I'm sorry, Uh, you know, I think 707 00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.880 that they I think that David Lee Roth just fits that band properly. I 708 00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:00.320 mean, yeah, you can see you can make all the r and said, 709 00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:01.280 oh well, Eddie Rays Wilson the songs. But yeah, it's like 710 00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:05.440 yeah, but it's not. It's not David Lee Rong. It's not that 711 00:48:05.480 --> 00:48:07.320 doesn't have David Ly rock. Yeah. I feel like I was like sheltered. 712 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:10.679 My dad was a huge still as a huge Van Halen fan, and 713 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:14.440 like I feel like I was sheltered from the Sami Hagar like era, Like 714 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:15.960 I didn't even know that was a thing. Until I was like in middle 715 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:19.639 school. I was like, hey, there's this is a different guy and 716 00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:23.480 he's like, yeah, it's like okay. I was like, oh, 717 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:27.679 I've just missed out on like half of van Halen history. But it's okay, 718 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:31.639 Like I'll figure it out. Dad. Thanks. So that that is 719 00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:35.760 that it was the opposite with my dad. But because I saw the twenty 720 00:48:35.960 --> 00:48:39.559 four reunion with with Sammy Hagar which kind of went to hell, and then 721 00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:44.719 I won tickets in two and seven. Oh nice to see van Halen with 722 00:48:45.159 --> 00:48:49.880 David Lee roth Stable Center with my dad. Choice all right, well, 723 00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:52.719 I want to wrap it up with one final question that ties into your work 724 00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:58.679 as a political journalist and reporter. There are some very few political jokes in 725 00:48:58.760 --> 00:49:00.760 Ted Lasso, so I'm just wondering if you had one that you found particularly 726 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:05.559 cheeky or that was your favorite. One of my favorite ones is when um 727 00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:08.639 Ted asks Sparry. He says, how's missus missus Beard doing, because you're 728 00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:12.559 talking like I I like moms because they're kind of like a blue produce. 729 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.960 That's the episode where we meet Rebecca's mom and they're talking about mom. Yes, 730 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:17.800 exactly. It's a great it's a that's a great of it. And 731 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.079 um and then like he says, how's missus Beard doing. He says full 732 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:28.559 blown qing on and I think you hear Beard going and you're like okay, 733 00:49:30.199 --> 00:49:34.800 Like as somebody who is who lived in Washington, DC during January six, 734 00:49:34.880 --> 00:49:38.280 I'm like, yeah, that tracks well, man. Eric, thank you 735 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:42.599 so much for coming on the show and chatting it up with us about ted 736 00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.760 Lasso and your book. It's been a pleasure, man, it's been so 737 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:53.079 fun. Let's do this. Yeah, and that is our show. We 738 00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:58.480 had a blast chatting ted Lasso and college basketball with Eric. You can find 739 00:49:58.519 --> 00:50:00.000 links to his book, his websit side, his work, and all the 740 00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:04.320 other stuff we mentioned in this episode in the show notes. We'll be back 741 00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.480 with more ted Lasso goodness, but you can keep the conversation going with us 742 00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:12.559 on Twitter and Instagram in the meantime. Our handle on both platforms is at 743 00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:15.599 ted Lasso Pod. This episode of Richmond Till We Die is brought to you 744 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:21.320 by Gin and Kerosene Productions. It was produced by me Brett and me Christian. 745 00:50:21.840 --> 00:50:24.320 If you're enjoying the podcast, please take thirty seconds to subscribe to our 746 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:29.199 feed and give the show a five star review on Apple Podcasts or a five 747 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:32.159 star rating on Spotify. Hey, if you're feeling generous, you could even 748 00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.960 do both. As always, we appreciate all the ways y'all share your love 749 00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:40.079 and support for the pod. Okay, I'm Christian signing off for Brett and 750 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:52.840 Eric. Thanks for listening, and until next time, Cheers y'all. Coord