Looking back on the life that you leaving better rested, the hole in the
crowd, stick around through the crag, the feeling or the fire you dancing
around. All we hear is the sound of treating, and no one cares
where you come from. My ears are still read feeding. I cares.
We are new start. The day is your one days be the worlds?
What a sass? He's out of dance. My heart goes now. I
got the fuse of the ashes, the spirits, light after night, looking
down the itch forever to stop me to take my vice. Now from the
Unphone Radio Network, It's Untold Radio with Dog and our tight chair. Hey,
everyone, welcome back to Untold Radio tonight. Doug is away. He's
filming in Canada for Legimde Science too, but we're in great hands with our
guest host, my girlfriend, best friend and no stranger to the paranormal.
I'll say hi everyone, I'm super happy to be here tonight, and like
Alex said, I'll be feeling him for Doug. I know those are some
pretty big shoes to fill, so bear with me please. I'm a longtime
listener, but first time podcaster. Our special guest tonight is none other than
Paul G. Buckner, the acclaimed author of big Foot, UFOs and the
Paranormal True Encounters. So tonight delve with us into the mysterious tales of Erie
forrests, unexplained phenomenon and moments that challenge your understanding of reality. Prepare for
a night of true encounters and chilling tales, only on Untold Radio. Welcome
to the show, Paul, Oh great, thanks, thanks glad to be
here. Very exciting. So, you know, first, if you want
to begin, like, how did you get into Bigfoot? Was there a
formative experience, did you have an encounter? How did this happen for your
journey? Oh? Well, you know, that's that's the the thing that
I find most fascinating is how everyone gets into it, gets involved with it,
because first and foremost, whether you believe in Bigfoot or not, it's
still very exciting just to think about it, and it's it's always a fun
story. But when I was a kid, probably ten years old, this
wasn't my personal experience, but it was my aunt And this is what got
me most interested in in this, this whole Bigfoot thing. Late seventies,
so, you know, not very long after the legend of boggy creed.
You know. Of course, everyone you know, reverse back to that at
some point or another, but I don't know. I went to work with
my dad one day during the summertime. And during the summertime back here in
Oklahoma, you know, when you're a ten year old boy, all you
want to do is run and play and just goof off all summer long.
Well, my plans kind of got a little bit thwarted when Dad said,
Hey, you're coming to work with me. Dad worked in construction, and
he worked with his brothers, and my cousin was about my same age,
and apparently we both had plans made for us that that particular summer, and
they worked in construction, building houses. In this one particular summer, I
had gotten up early and went to work with Dad, and when I got
there, my cousin was already there, and we were just kind of messing
around all all day, really just kind of trying to stay out of trouble,
to stay out of their way. I think it was just a a
way for them to keep me out of mom's hair, you know, But
it was, you know, in the late sammies. Nobody had cell phones
back then, but I remember it was. It was just after afternoon,
after lunch, when a neighbor from a house that my dad and my uncle
were working on. A neighbor comes over there and ask us, me and
my cousin, Hey, where's your dad at. We told him, well,
they're in the house working. They're probably in the back. So he
goes in there and they have this short conversation. Next thing I know,
my dad and my uncle are hurrying outside. They tell me and my cousin
to get into the truck, and so were jump in the back of the
truck and away we go. My uncle lived in this place called England Hollow
and it's it's I grew up in still All, Oklahoma, which is just
a small town northeastern Oklahoma, the foothills of the Ozark Mountains really, And
we jumped in the truck and we drove pretty quickly to get to my uncle's
house, and it was it was probably a good half hour away, but
I remember when we get there. We pull up to the house and the
whole house is just dark and all the lights are off. You know,
it doesn't look like anybody's home. The doors are locked, and my uncle's
scrambling for his keys. Now and he finally gets to the door unlocked,
and we get into the house and he finds my aunt in the back room
along with my my other younger cousin. She was with her. But she
finally comes into the living room. She's all shaken and she's just still terrified,
and she's telling this story to my dad and my uncle that she was
outside hanging laundry and when she saw this this thing, she said, she
was just and you got to remember where. She's out of a very remote
area. They're in England Hollow and uh, just surrounded by by woods and
a couple of pastures on each side, and they have a small barn out
there and they raised some some cattle. And she said, she's outside hanging
laundry and she notices some something or someone out in this pasture. Said it
was quiet ways away, and she just really didn't think much about it.
She thought, well, it was probably a you know, just another cow
or a horse or something in the pasture. And she just continued on hanging
the laundry. But then she noticed it would get closer to her. And
then at one point, she said, she turned away and looked back up
and it was gone, right, So she brought, Oh, okay,
this is kind of weird. I don't see it anywhere else. And then
she heard something down at the barn and that's she said, that's that's what
really scared her, because she saw this thing. She said, it was
not a cowboy, wasn't a horse, wasn't a bear. It was on
two legs. And wow, at that point, what like, what was
the did you say the time of day was it was? It was at
night evening? Well this this was when when the neighbor came over and got
my dad and uncle. It was just a little bit afternoon, so it
had to have happened around around noon. Yeah, yeah, so you know,
in the middle of the day and when when she saw this, and
she said at that point, I mean, she was just shaking, terrified.
And because she she saw it, it wasn't more than a hundred yards
away to that barn. She can very clearly see that. And by the
time she got around to the front of the house, she said, it
had grabbed one of the small calves and apparently had was carrying that calf off
and she ran into the house, got my cousin and locked the doors,
and that's when she got on the phone and called the neighbor, Now,
my aunt, she's you gotta. She was a stay at home mom and
a very devout Christian lady. She was. She was just not prone to
storytelling whatsoever. That that's just not hur him up. You could tell that
she was scared. I still remember this from when I was a kid.
I mean, she was trembling, just shaking and telling the story. So
at that point, it sounds like at that point she didn't identified as big
Foot. Maybe she wasn't even aware of what a big foot was, because
I think he was the worst thing she saw, this thing like otherworldly thing
for her right to be seen, right absolutely, because at that at that
time, you know, late seventies, she wasn't aware of Bigfoot or hadn't
seen any of those movies or anything. I don't think she even watched TV
much at all. So it was a very strange phenomenon to her to see
something like this, and I think that's what really scared her more than anything.
She had no ideal, you know, but at one point, oh
go ahead, no, go ahead, Oh what point did she make the
connection or like pieced it together that it could be a big Foot. At
that point she didn't, but it was a few days later. I remember
then it was it was all brought up and we were all talking about it,
and that's when it was kind of all kind of starting to fit together
because at that time, there was another incident that happened not too long after
that in a place called Dutch Mills, Arkansas, just right down the road,
because where we lived it was basically right there in northeast Oklahoma on that
Arkansas border, so very very close and with a few incidents like this happened
and get reported starting putting two and two together and then yeah, it's it's
bigfoot. Wow, that's amazing. I can't imagine even just seeing that in
the middle of the night. So, and you said, you said you
were a kid at this point when you're on had this experience. So let's
going through your head, like did you take right to it or were you
skeptical, were you intrigued? Did you want to see one yourself? Like
what you know, what's going through your head at this point? Well,
you know, I think at that point when you're about ten years old and
you see other people's reactions and stuff, you tend to almost mimic the reactions.
So it was very exciting but scary at the same time. Exactly exactly.
So let's fast forward here. So this happens, right, Was there
a period of time where you grew up, maybe put it out of your
mind, or were there other occurrences in the town that kept your interests,
like you know, what happened after that? Well, like I said,
you know, immediately after that, there were a few reports around the one
that happened in Dutch Meals, Arkansas, for instance, that was just days
after this, and it was a story about a bigfoot that apparently had broken
into a chicken house late at night and a farmer had went outside and caught
it and shot at it. But it had ripped the door off this chicken
out. And this was like the big commercial chicken houses, you know,
the I don't have many sixty thousand chickens or something like that, and those
big grow houses. But it had ripped one of those big metal doors off
and stolen chickens, and this farmer had shot at it. And this was
in the paper and just going around the community and everything, just reports around
everywhere. But that it just kept me intrigued with that. But you're right,
after that, you know, it just kind of kind of died away,
dwindled. Thinking back on it, do you think this was maybe the
same big Foot or do you think it was maybe another one? Based on
the nearness of the encounters, Well, based on the nearness of the counter
it could have very well been the very same one. It wasn't really that
far away, and as the growth flaws, very close, so less than
probably a dozen miles. You know, And what you know, out of
all the things that could have happened to you growing up, what made you
want to pursue this further? You know, you've with with the writing,
and it looks like you've interviewed a lot of different witnesses. Where did that
passion come from? Well, I'll tell you whenever I am in my late
teenage years, I was I was playing music quite a bit and actually started
playing music on the road and traveling musician, you know, touring around the
whole countryside. And and I think that's one of the things that really stimulated
is because even though I didn't grow up in a in a traditional Cherokee home,
a lot of my family did, and storytelling was a big part of
that tradition growing up and Uh that that's that's one of the things that I
think was that was always you know, fun for me is listening to the
elders and tell stories and stuff. And in the Cherokee tradition and you know,
the oral tradition, there's a lot of different stories that are passed down,
you know, from generation to generation. And uh, I think I've
always just been drawn to those storytellers. You know, we have a lot
of Cherokee National Treasures that are great storytellers. And that's something that was that
was I always love to go listen to to wherever the at, you know,
when I was as growing up. So when I was on the road,
I had a chance to meet a lot of folks from other tribes and
that's I think that's where the connections really started coming for me to start really
gathering those stories up and using those for inspiration for my own fictional stories.
But uh, yeah, I mean I traveled from you know, from Oklahoma
to all the way up to Canada to down to Mexico to Florida to California,
so I had a chance to visit with dozens and dozens of different tribal
members and uh, you know what struck you, was it that there were
similarities between all these different tribal stories that there might be some truth in the
midst of Absolutely, you know, I think there are a lot of parallels
and similarities there with with a lot of different stories. And you know what's
really funny to me because the thing that I really just was really intrigued by
in the Cherokee, there's three different tribes within the Cherokee Nation. There's the
there's the Eastern Band, then there's the United Catu Band, and then there's
a Cherokee Nation, which I'm a citizen of. And all those stories you
know from the Cherokee, all three tribes still you know, have those same
stories, although they haven't changed some uniques and different qualities about them. But
you know, it's there's not very many stories in the Cherokee Lord that talk
about Bigfoot, but there is one by that James Mooney actually recorded. And
James Mooney was you know, he wrote the book with the History, Myths
and secret Formulas of the Cherokees. He was basically an embedded reporters to speak,
you know, so he collected these stories. But one of the things
that I've talked to a lot of elders about the stories that he collected.
You have to almost take with a grain of salt too, because the Cherokee
people, we have a very good sense of humor and we love to laugh.
We love to laugh at one another. You know, it's just one
of those, uh, those those traits about us. So when these stories
were told to Mooney, were they told in that light? You know,
were they told to just kind of you know mess? Yeah? Yeah,
So that's uh, I don't know, it's questionable. And and you know,
what was your conclusion? Do you think there's more more than these stories
than just you know, messing with people or you know, I think so.
I think there's a there's a lot more to them, because I think
every story has some basis in reality, and I think those that bases there's
there's so many similarities throughout a lot of the different tribes from uh Uh from
uh you know, from Canada all the way down to uh Us here in
Oklahoma, and those similarities are are very much what you're hearing in reports today.
You know, he's anywhere from six foot to ten foot tall, you
know, upwards of six hundred pounds covered in hair. And you know,
even though a lot of the stories are fearsome and terrorizing stories. I don't
really recall any of any people that I've ever interviewed ever been attacked or hurt
injured other than by their own accidental prowess, you know, of running or
scaring themselves. Yeah. Yeah, so you think that, you know,
there's a tendency for them to to be not violent in an encounter. Like
what do you what do you think about like, like what do you think
of the like the missing for old one set of books that kind of almost
imply that, you know, maybe some of these missing persons could beat the
big foot or paranormal you know. I from a lot of the different witnesses
that I have talked to an interview, there are a lot of occurrences where
there is more to it than just a big hairy creature in the woods.
There's there's uh always seem to be some sort of connection to otherworldly you know,
aliens know the lives so and you got to look around at our universe
here, I mean, we're just a very very small little spec out there,
and to think that we're alone, that's that's that's I don't know,
that's uh, I just don't I don't see it. I don't think we're
alone. I don't think we're alone here. I think there is something out
there, Oh, definitely, especially with all the new evidence that's been coming
out recently, right, and I think, you know, with social media
the way it is too, there's a little bit of a I mean,
you have to be a bit of a skeptic, especially with social media,
because you know, everybody wants their fifteen minutes, right, so I want
my fifteen minutes, Paul, I think you got a couple of more.
But you know, it's it's really funny though, because a lot of people
love to tell stories anyway, you know, I don't know, have you
ever played the game when you were a kid in school? Where and we
did this in church. We would start with a story, and just a
short, quick story, and we'd whisper it to one person and we'd pass
it around the room. By the time it got to the last person,
that story had so completely changed. What do you know it called? Was
it? Was it called telephone where you're from? Yeah? I think so,
absolutely? So where where is this conver is it? Do you think
people that's what it is? Like? They want attention, you know,
they want to tell a good story so they can get on TV. Like,
where do you what do you think the misinformation is primarily coming from?
Is that? Is that it? You know that It's really hard to say
because I've have I get calls all the time and uh emails and stuff from
folks that to tell their story, and I'll take it. For the most
part, people are very earnest in what they made and what they're telling me.
But I think there are those that I think you have to be kind
of skeptical about, you know. But for the most part, I think
most people are being very honest about what they believe they've seen. But you
know, growing up the way I did, we hunt and fish, running
in the woods and camping and planing. We spend our chopping the entire childhood
in the woods. And shadows play a big role in what you see there.
Yeah, And that's That's a couple of things that I always kind of
fall back to because I have seen things that I thought, oh my god,
what was that, and then it finally coming out a few minutes later.
You see something coming into light and you see it in a different perspective
and oh, okay, that's what it was. But when you see it
in that fleeting moment you know, your your imagination. Oh yeah, I've
been terrified by a skunk. I thought it was something. The right light,
a skunk looks like a pretty terrifying alien. Yeah. So we're like,
when you hear these stories, I imagine you've heard enough of them that
you've maybe got a sense of when something feels legitimate. Yeah. Yeah,
I think you really do. I think you you kind of get that filter,
and you don't want that filter to be something that you automatically just assume
everybody's lying. Absolutely, But there are the things that have are almost like
tells for you, you know, is it is it if someone's super eager
that you're going to publish their story, is there you know, is there
certain things where it's not that they're making the story up and maybe their alarm
bells are going on, you know, your alarm bells are going up that
maybe maybe the story isn't legitimate. Yeah. I think you get that that
feeling after so many different interviews and stuff. I think that it's just a
gut feeling and there's no science science to it, obviously, but I think
you get a feel for people and you can read people. That's you know,
I I don't know, after after talking to so many people us it
seems like hundreds, if not a thousand or two. But I think you
have to enter into it each time with believing that these folks are telling you
the truth, and then you listen to it and you kind of just have
to kind of pick through it and listen to it and try to compare that
to what you know physically is possible. And you know, it's one of
those things where somebody says, well, I saw it. It was you
know, it was a hundred dollars away, but it looked like it was
ten feet tall. What do you do with that? Yeah, it's you
know, there's a reason that they put those little measuring sticks on the on
the door of the convenience store because an eyewitness, you know, five feet
away will say somebody is five and a half foot tall, when in reality
they were seven foot tall running out the door with the sack of money.
You know, So it's it's hard to really gauge distance, uh, you
know, and put size and weight to that. Well, let me ask
you this. Out of all the encounters that you know, all the stories
that you've taken what is the most compelling story you've ever heard that involves big
Foot? And like like a U a folle uh one. I think that
was uh one that got me to believing that there's has got to be a
connection. Happened in uh and in Alabama. Uh and it was by a
Cherokee citizen lives here, but he lived there in uh Decatur, Alabama,
I believe it was. And uh the story that he told me there uh
was just very very intriguing, and Uh I had to Uh I had to
go there, uh and and trying to visit this this area where he told
me it was about. But apparently what had happened was, uh he was
on a on a fishing trip and uh with he and his wife, and
on this fishing trip, they had gone back into the woods and hike back
in and they were just he was he was a fly fisherman and he'd just
liked to get out in the woods and just hunt fish, high camp that
sort of thing. And uh, he said, they set up camp and
they're probably uh he said there were a few miles back into the woods from
where they had parked up the trail he had and they had been there a
couple of nights already, and one day he was out fishing by the by
the creek. It was just him. He had went down there. His
wife had stayed at the camp, just messing around there while he was fishing.
He had caught a few fish and he had strung these fish up,
and uh he had went back. He was just kind of going up and
down the stream there and catching a few here and there. And he put
him back on the stringer and he said he heard something. It didn't really
think much about it, and he looked around and and really didn't see anything
or he won, so I didn't really give it much thought. Well,
he went to fishing again. Then he caught another one and he went back
to his stringer to put this fish on. It was gone. He said,
he knew that he had tied it very well, and it was actually
tied. He said, it didn't just break off the in the water,
you know, And he said, there's just no way. So he's now
he's like looking around like it's somebody out here messing with us, you know.
And uh so he said he was a little bit perturbed at that point,
and he hollered around and uh probably hollered a few obscenities. You know,
who's out there, who's messing with me, you know, that sort
of thing. But he said he went ahead and fished a little bit longer
and then it just didn't catch anything else. Just frustrated, so he went
back to camp and he told his wife about this. He said, you
know, I caught some fish, but somebody stole him. And she said,
who's who's going to steal your fish? No, there's nobody out here.
I hadn't seen it. So, yeah, right, you lost your
you didn't catch any or you lost him or something. You know, you're
just you're just telling me this, He swears to her, you know I
did I did well. Later that night, they go to sleep and he
said, it's probably after midnight and it's pretty warm outside and they have the
tenth flap open, and uh, she's asleep, and he said he was
just just about to fall asleep when he heard some noise outside. So he
said he just kind of snuck out to see if somebody was messing with him,
you know, messing around in the camp. And he opens up the
tenth flap, you know, and he says he couldn't really see that well
out there. And he didn't have his flash like handy, and he didn't
want to make any noise, so you know, he just kind of slowed
closed that tent flap back and then he reached around and tried to find the
flashlight lying on the ground side of sleeping bag. And he said, I
guess I made a little bit too much noise or something, because then I
heard it, like it must have heard me and took off. So I
just opened up the flap real quick, and I shot my light out there,
and there was it was gone already, and he said there was there's
quite a distance from his campsite to the edge of the woods. He said,
there's a good thirty forty feet out through there. So whoever this was
moved pretty darn fast. So he said, okay, that that said,
I don't see anything missing from the camp, but there was obviously somebody here,
So I'm gonna sit up a little while. Well, he turned his
flashlight off and and during this time his wife kind of woke up, but
she went right back to sleep, he said, so she could sleep through
a hurricane. Well, he said, he's sitting there, he's got this
tent flap open, and he sees a small light, he said, a
light out out in the woods, and he just pulls his tent back open
it and it just kind of slowly steps back out, and he says,
he's watching this light. He says, just a white light, and he
thinks, okay, that's somebody with a flashlight out there. But it's said,
you know, but then you're watching it. If somebody's holding a flashlight,
it's kind of herky jerky, you know, kind of all over the
place. Says, if it wasn't, it was very smooth, and then
at one point it moves straight up like a climbed a tree or something,
and then straight back down, and then another light joined it, and that
he said, okay. At that point, he said, I'm starting to
get this eerie, weird feeling. What in the world is going on?
And he said, of course you know it's not. And you're seeing a
light out in the woods. You don't know how big it is because you
have nothing to reference it by. He said, it could have been a
five foot wide circle, it could have been a small pinpoint. You just
you can't tell, he said, But what he did, he stood up
and he started walking toward it, and they both came together, and he
said they got a little bit bigger and brighter, and then they just disappeared
altogether, just disappeared. He said that next morning. He went back to
bed later on and fell asleep, but he said the next morning they were
getting ready to leave. That next day, he said, here's the funny
part. You hear people talking about this all the time, but they build
these little rock carns, and he said there was there was one sitting there
about four rocks big. He said, the first one was a pretty good
sized rock, and then smaller and stacked on top of each other, not
twenty feet away from their camp site. He said they didn't do it,
and it was never there while they were there. So what did his life
think of that? Well, well, he said his wife just thought he
was a little bit you know, do you think did she think he stacked
those rocks? Exactly? Yeah. But you know, that's not the only
story that I've heard where there's lights like that in the woods. So but
that was the first one that I heard from in a situation like that.
And this is this guy. He's a he's a hunter, fisherman, he's
he was a guide and that's why he did. He worked for outfitters guiding
people on hunting trips and fishing trips and stuff, and I mean he knows
his way around the woods. So but yeah, I never got some fish.
He's not some accountant that when camping, you know that one time in
his life and everything's worth him, right he so he knew his way around
the woods. What what is with these stories and and orbs and UFOs connected
connected the big Foot in some way? Like how do you even make sense
of that? Like let's say, let's say we say this is going on,
like, wow, why do you think it's happening? How is Bigfoot
connected to juafoos? You know? I think that's the million dollars question right
there, because everybody that I've talked to that that had that similar type of
experience where there's some sort of connect connection there, it's like why, how
you know? What? What's what's going on there with that? Are Are
they are they aliens themselves? Are they here from another world? What's the
deal with that? Because I firmly believe that number one, that we aren't
alone in this universe. I just don't believe that for a second. There's
because I've witnessed a couple of things in my life that that tell me differently.
So I really don't know what that connection is because there's so many other
stories where there's there's not there doesn't seem to be a connection at all.
So I don't really know why that is. What is there been a theory
or a handful of theories that you've you find convincing, uh you know,
reasons even if there's no evidence, but just it almost makes sense to me,
not not really, I can't draw the connection. I just I don't
understand what it possibly could be. Uh, you know, because there there's
probably some scientific reasoning behind these lives or these orbs or what have you.
But here where we're at in Oklahoma and and Arkansas, in places like that,
I just don't see this being gas or anything like that that's reflective or
things like that. So I'm not really sure why it is. And like
you mentioned, I mean there's tons and tons of these stories. I've heard
many before. Like my grandpa used to tell a story of seeing a blue
orb in the middle of a field like at in the middle of the night,
and you know it's just this big ball of flame almost and you know,
you can never get near it, and if you ever try to get
near it, it would disappear. So yeah, like it's incredible and it's
different. Everybody has a different version of what it is. He used to
think it was just lost souls, you know, trying to find their way.
I've heard very stories like that. And you know, I remember one
time when I was a kid at I was down in in Rolland, Oklahoma,
and uh, I don't know, I guess that's probably fourteen or fifteen
or something like that at that particular time, because my cousin my same age
down there had many bikes and we were riding many bikes, run out in
the pastors and stuff, and I remember us stopping our bikes and at one
point and going in my cousin alan point and said, what in the world
is that? And we're looking at this and we got this big open field
here where we're riding our many bikes, and then there's woods down there,
and there's a big pond down there somewhere, and we see this this reddish
glow just happening. We're thinking, what in the world is that? So
we ride our bikes to it, right, and as we get closer to
it, it seems to be getting further away from us. We never could
get to it, but it was still there for the longest time, and
then all of a sudden, it's just gone, oh wow. So you
almost feel like stuff like that, it's just like they're deliberately trying to mess
with you, like the the whole trickster arc type. I do. I
think so because I've got I've had a few experiences myself that tell me that
there's probably some some some reality to that spirits being able to still manifest themselves
and still mess with us here somewhat, because I've actually, uh, I
just interviewed a lady not long ago, and this was a really fascinating interview
because she was she's a young lady, just bought a house for the first
time, you know, and it's just a small, two bedroom, one
bath house, you know, on the edge of town, and it's just
her by herself, and she works works night. And she told me when
she first moved into this house, she thought she was just very forgetful because
she would lay her keys down and the next thing, you know, she
couldn't find them. Said it was like that with a lot of different things.
You know, she lay stuff down and they would disappear, only to
be found later exactly where she thought she had left them. Well, she
said that that happened for quite a bit, and then one day I got
up early and I was getting ready to go to work in the evening,
and she had fixed a cup of coffee and she set it down on the
table, and then she said, I went to get my shoes and put
my shoes on, and she bent down to tire shoes and then when she
set back up, the coffee cup was on the other side of the table.
Oh my god. Yeah, she said that I just freaked her out,
and I can't imagine. Yeah, so she said she just kind of
jumped and it was just like horror, Who's who's here? You know?
And uh, she said that was that kind of told me that maybe I'm
not losing my mind. Maybe somebody just messing with me. Now, maybe
it's some spirit messing with me. So she said she called her mom and
dad that next day and they came over right and uh, she's a Cherokee,
says, and herself and her dad came over and and they basically smoked
the house off, and uh, you know, and that's to get rid
of those spears. Those spears. Well, here's the thing about she said,
her dad did that to get rid of those evil spirits these things and
stop. Wow. Wow, now that's the that's the catch. She said.
I don't think they're evil. I don't think they're evil at all.
I think they're just playing with me. Is absolutely yeah, she said,
there's there's nothing trying to harm me. Uh, if anything, is just
playing little drunk jokes on me. So pretty pretty fascinating. Wow, kind
of scary, but fascinating for sure. Yeah, she's kind of gotten used
to it now, but it's it's far and fear in between anymore. But
she said she completely got used to it. So this might be like a
little bit off topic here, but I just want to pick your brain,
like what are your thoughts on skin walkers? Do you believe in them?
Do you? Wow? You know that's uh, that's not something that is
a prevalent story or any lore in the Cherokee or in the Cherokee Nation anyway.
Now it could be with the UKB or the Eastern Band or something there,
but yeah, I don't have a lot of experience with skin walkers themselves,
but you know, like with the Cherokee. There's a lot of different
witches from the raven Mocker to spear Finger that are some of the most evil
and powerful witches. So skin walkers themselves, I think are really come from
from different tribes that I've I would love to get more interviews with and talk
to more people, because I've got a friend that he's Navajo, and he
kind of tells me one of these days, I wanna, I'm gonna tell
you some stories and that Adam make a believer out of yet, so I
keep waiting for it's got to build it up. Yeah, I mean,
it's just I don't know, because every time I go down to meet him
in Gallop, it's like, yeah, well one day, I'll tell you
one day, you know. So the suspense, you know, just lingers.
What would you be more terrified to run into a big foot or a
skin walker in the woods? God, I think a skin walker. You
know, it's at least with big Foot by now we kind of know what
to almost expect, right, Yeah, yeah, with a skin walker and
you don't know, you don't know, that's that's just that's very scary.
But you know, I have you ever heard of the town of Honabi Creek.
Every year that have a big I haven't, I haven't. Well what
about it, Paul? Yeah, every year in October they have this Bigfoot
festival. And of course that came from uh a supposed attack and uh that
happened several years ago. Well, and Honaba, Oklahoma, it's Honaby Creek
in the Kami Mountains down south. Well, this is UH there's several hundred
thousand acres out through there in this WMA, the Wildlife Management Area there and
uh a couple three different rivers that run through there. Just a vast wilderness
and a lot of different stories that have come out of there. But it's
it's one of those places where I think a lot of people go now to
I don't know, to to try to find bigfoot. Uh. You know
there's that what area X. I think is one group of bigfoot researchers down
there that have some property and and have done some research there. Very interesting
stuff. But I've been all over those mountains, you know, we've we've
ridden four wheelers all over those mountains. They've lo those mountains for years now.
But again, you know, you have three hundred thousand acres. I
don't care how many people are down there. You can't cover it. You
simply cannot cover that much area. And you know what's really fascinating about that
is, yeah, I've been all over that place, but you could take
that and put it in the Pacific Northwest and it's just a spec So that's
that's where I really want to spend some more time. Have you had any
experiences while you were there, like besides anything, As a matter of fact,
I had one experienced one and it's uh, it's it's really it's it's
scared to crap out of me. I'll tell you that. I've got a
couple of friends that they have cabins up there in Honaby Creek, right and
it's up on the top of the mountain and from the there's a there's one
little store there called Honeby Creek Cabins and you can rent a small cabin stuff
there. And every year the biggest thing there is the Bigfoot Festival. But
I've been going down there for over thirty years with my friends, hanging out,
hunting, fishing, just whatever. You know. Well, like I
said, I've been a musician too, So after I retired from the road,
you know, I still played on the weekends quite often. And I
had some friends that I've played music with that lived in Tulsa and me being
from Stilwell, which is, you know, one hundred hundred miles away,
we were going to meet up down there and just spend the weekend. Well,
I lowered my four wheelers up on the back of a trailer and I've
got my four wheel draft truck and the drive down there's about a three hour
drive from where I live, and it's through the commun mountains and that Tallahina
Drive, which is just a beautifu full drive in the fall. It's it's
one of those big famous drives that everybody rides the motorcycles on and stuff,
you know, through the fall and stuff, and it's winding, you know,
through the mountains and stuff. Beautiful. Well, I got loaded up
and I'm you know, trucking on down here. I'm by myself, and
I'm driving up the mountain. And when I get down to Honubby itself,
it's probably another you know, twenty minutes up to the cabins. Now.
So I passed by the store and it's it's getting kind of late, and
uh, I want to hurry up and get up there because it's hard to
find that road that turns off to the cabins because it's a nice paved road,
but the turnoff is just a dirt road, and it's right in the
middle of the woods. And it's not like there's it's a real turnoff.
It's just a hole in the woods. So I get up there and I
drive through. We're turn off and I'm driving back through, and the road
is real windy and twisty, and you're going around these sharp hairpin turns.
I've got the truck and I've got a twenty foot trailer on the back with
three full wheelers, right, so I'm trying to get through these little tight
turns. I finally get back in there to the cabin and I kind of
back it around. I finally get backed in. I'm the first one there,
so I'm just sitting there waiting on everybody, and it's it's dark now.
And as I finally get backed in and everything, I just put it
into park and I just kill the engine and roll the windows down. The
engine, I mean, the radio stays on for another ten or fifteen minutes
or something like that. Then everything just dies off. Well, when it
finally just died off, I'm sitting here in the dark, and you could
start hearing all the night noises around you, the crickets, the cicadas,
the bullfrogs croaking, all the night noises going on. And it is pitch
black up there on top of that man there, and there was no stars
out, there's no moon. You cannot see your hand in front of your
face. I mean, is that pitch dark. It's just inky black.
So I was sitting here and it's just kind of eerie, weird, you
know, And then I hear this, this footstep or what I think is
a footstep. Okay, what is that, you know? So I'm looking
around. I still can't see anything. My flashlights in the back of the
truck with my other stuff, my other gear, so I'm not gonna get
out and get it. And i don't want to turn my headlights on because
this sound happened over here to the side of me, you kind of behind
the cabin. So I'm thinking, okay, I'm fine, and I'll reach
into the console and i console myself because I've got a handgun in there.
You know. It's it's the woods out everything in the world there. So
I'm thinking, I'm good. I'm safe, you know, and because you
can scare yourself stupid. So I just sat there a few more minutes.
Then I hear it again, and you can hear the dry leaves just crunch,
and I, Okay, what is that? Is somebody already here messing
with me? And I think that's impossible because they have to drive right by
me, and there's no way that they could have. That road is so
small, so remote. Yeah, yeah, I hear it again, right,
and now I'm starting to get this this weird feeling like, Okay,
something's out there and it's it's not a skunk. It's bigger than that.
It's bigger than than anything like that. You can you can just tell when
you hear a noise that close to you. And so I'm I'm sitting up
now and the harold, you know, back my neck is just standing straight
up, you know. And then I hear it again. And here's the
weird part. My windows are down, and I felt something in the window
beside me. It's like just this looming presence right beside me, and it
was I it was stifling, and I don't know what happened after that.
I don't know how in the world I did this. But the next thing
I know, my consciousness is it's like I'm sitting down at the whole Numby
Creek store in my truck park and I'm just breathing hard and it's it's I
don't even know what time it was. It was after midnight at this point.
I don't know how I got there. I don't know what it was.
I don't know if it was just a fear that caused me to forget
everything, but the major time lapse of a couple of hours just gone,
God, wow. I never saw what it was. I don't know what
it was, but it was did you have like was there anything different?
Did you have any markings on you? Like? No? And I remember
I was sitting there just I had my hands on the steering wheel and I
was just shaking, and I don't even I didn't know what to think.
I said, thinking, how did I get here? You know what happened?
And I'm just trying to remember and I cannot remember. I just the
last thing I remember is this this looming presence beside me, just filling up
this entire window. And I've got a four wheel drive truck. You got
to step up into it, you know, so whatever this was was huge,
and I had no idea, and I just remember sitting there. At
about that time, my buddies drive by and they hit their horns because they
see me my truck and recognize me, of course. And they're driving by
and they're hitting their horns and the holler and hey, come on up,
you know. So I pull in behind them, and I followed them up,
and remember this, it's just winding a lot of hairpin turns in there,
back and forth, you know. And and I get there and I'm
just I'm still shaking, and they're you know, getting down, they're excited,
you know, they're getting climbing out of their truck and everything, and
I'm just shaking. And I guess I'm just ghost wide and that's what in
the world is wrong with you? And I tell them, they're oh,
come on, that's it. I'm serious, guys, there's there's something here.
So everybody's got their their spotlights out now, because you know, rednecks
in the woods with with with guns and spotlights, you know. But I
never seen anything else. In the next day, I looked I looked over
my truck really really well. I had no scrapes on it, no bumps,
no bruises, nothing like that. So I don't know how I got
out of those woods without doing that. Oh wow, because if I drove
out of there that fast, I was going to wrap that truck around a
tree with that those trailer and bikes alone there. Yeah, Oh wow,
that's incredible. Oh my god. Yeah. I actually I have a couple
of questions for you, but let's go to a quick commercial break. We'll
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journey even more exciting together. Okay, all right, So here's my question.
Here's my question. So this crazy story happens here, this crazy thing
happens to you. Would you or maybe you already have, would you ever
get like hypnotized to try to do like, oh, what is there like
a regression or whatever, to maybe see if you could feel I never have,
but yeah I would, I would. I would do it just to
see because like I said, I could not remember in a hurt trying to
remember. I mean, it was just it's there. I just know it's
there, but you couldn't tap into it what happened, you know, So
I would do it in a harbyat like how scared? Like do you feel
like you'd be a little scared to like maybe find out or would you be
excited or yeah, you know there there's some apprehension to it, you know,
to find out that what it really really is, you know, because
I don't know. The fear of the unknown is the greatest fear ever,
right, so you know, you tap into that and find out what exactly
happened, and it may be something you just can't come back from. So
why do you think we haven't? Uh? Why why do you feel like
this mystery, like like Bigfoot has been so elusive? Do you feel like
we're making progress or do you feel like, you know, we're kind of
spinning our wheels here, like you know what I'm saying, Like, yeah,
you know, I think sometimes it's like in this this particular community,
it seems like we're our own worst enemies. Sometimes we shoot ourselves in the
foot no pun intended, but you know for but yeah, I mean,
every every step forward, it seems like there's something that brings you right back
to, you know, to square one. Because I think social media,
for one, thing, is a fantastic thing. Uh and if used for
good and not evil. Right, But at the same time, it's it's
one of those things where everybody has an opinion and everybody is right. But
you know, we still we still have to put some some science to this,
right, We've got to have some sort of proof. We have to
have some physical, physical proof that we can just we can hold in our
hands, you know. I mean my wife, for instance, she can.
She loves to shop online, you know, she don't have to go
to the store. That's that's great. Me on the other hand, I
want to hold this in my hand. I want to look at them,
I want to examine this, you know, and without that that physicalness of
whatever this is, it's just like it's not real to me, you know.
So what do you think of people that say, look, the reason
why we haven't been able to get definitive proof or at least, you know,
to prove the most art and skeptics that this thing exists is because it
isn't physical. It's some sort of supernatural, interdimensional being. You know,
what you're asking for is impossible. What do you say to that. I
give a lot of credence to that, really, because you know, I
think some people are more perceptible to that. Uh, that's that's spiritual side
of things, because you know, it's kind of weird. I've had a
couple of experiences where that made me a believer in the spirit world, you
know, And uh, I think there's there's just a lot of validity to
that. I don't think it has to be absolutely physical, you know.
Uh, to be real, I think be spiritual and be very very real.
You know. That's the mind is a very powerful thing. And I
think for some people they can they can pick up on those those spiritual things,
probably more so than other people. And I don't think age or or
gender or anything like that has anything to do. And I think it's just
a matter of of circumstance. A lot of times that maybe being raised in
a particular environment has has allowed them to be more perceptible to these types of
things. So yeah, I give that a lot of credibility. So what,
you know, if we can't even narrow down if this thing is a
physical creature or some interdimensional being, like where do you even start, Like
if you if you could get the Big Book community to hone in on a
methodology, like how do you think as a community we should be trying to
solve this mystery? How? No pressure? That's that's a very difficult question
to even even think about, because you know, there's just so many different
angles to comment this by. You know that just being in the in the
physical realm is one thing, but then when you're you're talking about that that
fourth dimension, you know, that spiritual realm, and bringing that and tying
that together. Oh, that's that's a tough one, you know because and
that's one of the things I've tried to tackle with with a lot of my
interviews, because I've talked to a lot of different elders, for instance,
and not just my tribe, but in other tribes too. And you know,
with the Cherokee, the spirit world and the physical world we're the one
insane Is it almost like they're blended together or it's like on a spectrum.
Absolutely, and that was the basis for our religion, if you want to
call it a religion and basically looking too away, but yeah, and it's
it's I'm not sure where that separation occurred, you know, was was that
something within our own tribe? When when that separation started ocurring? Was due
to colonization or was it just something that was a natural progression of events?
You know, I think it was. Dan Brown wrote, you know,
in one of his books, and it made a lot of sense, even
though it was a fictional book. It talked about you know, in many,
many years ago, a man had a lot of different gods, right,
we worshiped a lot of different gods. But then as we became a
little bit more intelligent about our environment and the physical world and the scientific world,
those gods became less and less important to us because we started, okay,
we can rule that one out, you know. Uh, you know
thor for instance, that got a thunder. You know, well, we
know that that's a that's really a physical manifestation. We know what the scientific
reasoning is for that, you know, So we don't need that god anymore.
Right, So now we're down to one to one God, And when
you think about it in those types of terms, is okay, where do
we go from there? You know, now we're down to the one creator,
right, and the spirit world, I think is back. We're almost
back to that that same synergy where the spirit world and the physical world is
it should be the same, right, I mean? Are we have we
come full circle? Or are we coming full circle? Are we getting there?
Yeah? And I can see you're going with this, But specifically,
let's say, you know what Native American let's say in their tails are big
foots? Are they the way they speak of them? Are they basically big
apes? Or are they something more? Is there some sort of a spirit
interdimensional, paranormal element to these things? Well, that's that's the thing that
I've I've found is a common theme throughout a lot of the Native American lure
when it comes to any of the stories that that have a resentlance to to
Bigfoot, right, that it is a spiritual being. So I think that's
where we're back to that that full circle within within the uh, the Native
American belief because the physical and the spiritual are still one within those types that
is what what what is Bigfoot? Representing in these types of cultures. Is
it different in the different tribes or did they all kind of hone in on
this is like bigfoot, you know, means good luck or is signs of
bad? You know? Like, what what what are you getting from these
stories? Well? You know that that's that's one of the things that I
find that is it's very controversial within our own tribe because some people believe this
and some people believe that. Right, But when it gets to the essence
of the story, you've got to think back to the stories themselves. Why
why was this story ever told it to begin with? You know, and
you think back, Okay, so I'm hearing this story now for the first
time. Well what about you know, two hundred years ago when this four
story was first told? Why did that storyteller want to tell this story and
pass it along? What was the importance to it? Is Is it like
a parable? Is it? Is it something to teach us with? You
know, because a lot of the stories within the Cherokee lore are our stories
that are that they teach us something. You know. There's one particular story
about how the possum lost his uh fur on his tail, right, and
it was due to pride and you know, pride come up before a great
fall, right, And it's those sorts of things. But there's also back
to the thing that you know, Cherokee are are very uh we we like
to laugh, we like to tell those right. So a lot of our
stories too, are are simply for entertainment value. But and that's the thing
that I think you have to remember is is when when you're when you hear
a story, whether it's about Bigfoot or about the possum more, you know,
the origin stories too, you've got to think back to that original creator
of that story, what was the purpose behind that? Was it purely for
entertainment? Was it was it to teach us a lesson? Or was it
to figure out how are how we interact with our environment, how we interact
with the world and that understanding trying to figure out how we fit in with
that. So there's a lot of reasonings behind that, but we don't know
exactly, you know, not now, but I don't know. It's very
interesting, is there is there stuff you've discovered in these stories that I feel
like other researchers have maybe overlooked or you know, just because they're just unaware
of these stories, maybe insights you've picked up, even though yeah, it's
hard, right because there's embellishments, and then there's just pure storytelling, you
know, trying to tell a good story, make it interesting. And then
there's the whole telephone effect, right where how how old are these stories?
Howl on? They've been passed down, But as there's insights you've picked up
by just sher maybe his pattern recognition of there's this commonality, this seed that
I'm seeing over and over again. Well, you know, I think that's
the something It is really interesting is there are a lot of commonalities. And
it's funny because from tribe to tribe, you know, there's a lot of
different similarities in the same type of story. So you know, like the
one story that that Mooney talks about that even remotely resembles a Bigfoot story,
and the way he recorded it. You know, I've talked to a lot
of different elders from from every all three of the tribes, the Cherokee tribes,
and the word itself that he uses, that that was told to him
is not a word that is recognized by our our Cherokee speakers today. So
that makes it a little bit more difficult to really tap into the essence of
that story because it's one of the oldest recorded ones that we have. That's
you know, it's written down because it's an oral tradition of course, you
know, with most tribes and those oral traditions like that, you know,
having no recording of the way that they began. It's it's really hard to
pin those those things down because when you try to compare one story to another
story, what they're trying to get out of it and while they're trying to
teach is could be vastly different but from the same, you know, type
of story, if that is understandable at all. Yeah, how much effort
is being done by just people in general to put these stories to the page
so they're not lost forever? I mean, is there is there a great
effort to try to you know, save these stories. Yeah, you know,
that's one of the things that I love about our our tribe right now
and where we're at. You know, over the last few years, the
Cherokee Nation in particular, have done very well with our our businesses, and
we are the largest tribe in the US and bigger than that, hope,
thank you. It's been a running competition. You know, we're roll one
more member than you, but now we are. You know, here in
Oklahoma, we have a just a huge economic impact right here, and we're
in a very good place. And that is one of the things that the
Chief has recognized is is our need to revitalize our language. And you do
that. The language is our culture, and our stories are just so important
to us. And over the last few years they've really put a lot of
money and effort into revitalizing the language and collecting these stories from our elders and
really putting great importance on that. So we we are, I think,
very progressive in that approach, and I think we're kind of at the forefront
of that because not long ago we were in danger of losing the language.
We lose our elders and our first language speakers in great numbers anymore. And
it's it's really sad to see that and that that knowledge is not being passed
down don't like it used to be. But but you know, like I
said, I think we're in a very very good place right now, and
we're starting to bring that back and starting to collect those again, and we're
recording our elders and their stories and these these stories that have been told and
passed down from generation to generation. So we're doing very well, but it's
it's going to get better. What if you were given a million dollars and
you had to spend it on research, could be for the paranormal, could
be for UFOs, could be for bigfoot. How would you spend that money?
Oh? Wow, loaded question there. Yeah, it is, you
know, one of the things I always thought about because you know, being
a big avid outdoorsman, you know, I you know, like I said
growing up and today, you know, I spend from October one, when
when both season opens to uh you know, to to January, I'm in
the woods, you know, and all my family friends are, and it's
it's just a huge tradition. We always have been and uh, you know,
we hunt everything from deer, turkey, quail, pheasant, whatever we
can hunt. You know, we're gonna hunt, We're gonna fish. And
when we're not in the woods during those seasons, yeah, we're on the
lakes fishing. I would love to be able to really put that into being
able to have the type of technology and the equipment that I know that that
is out there. It's just very expensive to be able to go into these
places that are uh I guess highly young visited by by Bigfoot? Right?
Hot spots? Right, yeah, hot spots and go there with with the
technology that we have and with the manpower. I think that's the thing that
I wouldn't listening, what's the most expensive piece of equipment, Like, what
is the toy you would just most up to put in one of these spots
or utilize? Well, I'll tell you, I'd love to get with either
who is Elon Musk or whoever's got the starting satellites up there? Wouldn't get
some satellites out there because I mean those satellites, man, they can really
die. Why are we using them? Right? How how is a bigfoot
hide from a satellite? Exactly? Nobody can hide from a satellite. Surely
Bigfoot can't. So what you're saying is Elon Musk already has all the evidence
we'd ever need. He's just sitting there. What about drows what you just
had enough of them just flying around patrolling the woods eventually? Yeah, I
don't know. I just don't. You don't seem interested in drones, you
see, Well, I'll tell I'll tell you this. Here's just a quick
story that I thought was a drune or was several drums. It was drolls
at first. Yeah. And this is broad daylight in a little town called
Venita, I just not very far from here. I'm standing outside with a
with a friend and we're just looking around and we're waiting on cars to come
into this event that we're at. We're at. We're at the gate.
We're just kind of talking and as people slowly come in and stuff, and
we direct them where to go and park for this event, and it starts
slowing down. Everybody's already there, and we're standing there just talking, you
know, just chit chatting, and uh, I glance up into the sky
above town. There are these white orbs, right, They're just white,
and they're flying around, and there's several of them. There's about a dozen
of them, and they're just all flying around. And then like five or
six of them break off and fly around over here to the other side,
and they're just all over the place. And then they come back together and
then they're all flying around again, and I'm thinking, what in the world
is why are they just all this white orb If they're not drones, then
that's not a drone. They're white. I mean a drone, you would
you would see some sort of a shape or color or something, not just
a white orb. But then I turn away and then when I look back
up, they're all gone. Those weren't drones. But I'm just, yeah,
drones are I don't know. So did it hit you when they disappeared
out of thin air? Yeah? That was that was I was telling my
buddy their Cameron. I said, dude, did you see that? I
mean, that's not drones. I mean, you can't really enter up in
the sky like that, and you have no reference point. You can't tell
how big something is or how fast something is really moving. And but they
look like they were. They were just able to move and do anything that
they wanted to and then gone, wait a minute, something right here.
So I'm sorry by missus this. So did your buddy see them or was
it too quick? It was no, he never saw them. He never
saw them. No. That brings me another question. Do you think the
problem with some people is they're just they're not paying attention that they don't see
this stuff that? Do you think it's more common than people? You know,
maybe most people believe Yeah, because you know a friend of mine and
I were talking about this very very thing, like, for instance, when
you're a hunter, uh and and you're sitting in a tree stand, you've
taught yourself to be very very still and to look forward those things that that
don't belong you know, and it's usually movement that that gives something away.
And you know, it's one of those things where if you've taught yourself what
to look for, you're going to see it. But if if not,
I mean I for instance, I've been driving down the road with my wife
and say, hey, look you see that, dear, And she's like,
where where are you looking? We'll see it? Well, she's not.
It's just it. Yeah. I think you have to have some lot
of a trained eye to be able to notice things that are out of the
ordinary. For instance, so you know, when you're in the woods,
there's a thousand things out there. There's trees, there's lambs, there's there's
leaves, there's there's twists, there's birds, there's squirrels, there's all sorts
of animals and things. That's going on your mind is trying to process all
of that, and if you don't know what to look for, you're not
going to see it. Yeah, exactly. Have you ever taken any encounter
stories from like Mexico? Uh? Yeah, I did. And actually my
my band was playing in Alama Gordo and when we were there, we went
to El Paso and then we went to ware Is to visit with some folks
over there, and yeah, yeah, Warda is right, you're gonna hear
some weird stories there. That's a big up hotspot right there. Yeah,
well it was. It was really fascinated some of the stories that some of
the folks were telling us there that Oh yeah, it's it's like an occurrence
all the time, you know, wow, really you know so, but
yeah, I would love to be able to go back into some of those
other remote areas like that. I think they're probably more visible in those places
like that too. Oh yeah, especially you know, you've got miles and
miles of just open desert. I mean, yeah, the nice guys like
clear as day. Oh no, right, yeah, couple things. Yeah,
what about the Chip of Cabra out there? You know, no experience
or stories, but the Chip of Cabra disappointed in that because you know,
that's what tell me something. I want to see it. It's like the
National Animal there. But you know, like talking about supernatural hot spots and
stuff like that, Uh, why do you think like Hanover Creek is it
like why do you think that's such a big hot spot? Like is there
a particular reason or you know that that's Uh. I think those become hot
spots in a lot of times because you have that that first encounter story,
right, and yeah, that's uh, that's the big that's the one that
puts it on the map. And then you've got people that that kind of
flocked there to it. And unfortunately it's part of it. You're gonna have
those people that are going to oh, yeah, well this is what I
saw too, you know, because you know those those bands, Yeah,
like Federal what you say to me too, is a big foot? Exactly?
Yeah, you know, so I think that's what creates some of the
hot spots. So what about this? What if what if there's this this
this stuff's happening everywhere. You get a hot spot and now people that's when
people's eyes open, you know, that's when they're paying attention because they're like,
oh, well it's a big foot that was seen here. We should
actually pay attention instead of staring at her fall, and yeah, well and
that's true. Like like I was talking about, while we go, if
you're not trained to look for something in particular, the same thing applies there,
you know, because now you're aware of it. Have you ever went
out and we're car shopping, for instance, and you thought, Okay,
I'm gonna get me a jeep unlimited wrangler, you know, and uh,
nobody in town seems to be having one until you buy one, and then
all of a sudden you see them everywhere a right, So you're you're now
looking for that. You know, you see that. So I think there's
a lot to that. You know, you put it there in their heads,
so they're gonna find it. They're gonna be looking for it. Have
you Have you ever seen this video? It's like a psychology one on one
video, but it's like people are passing up basketball back and forth, and
they first just make you watch it and you're just like, okay, whatever,
and then they show you what you missed and like someone in like a
monkey suit walks in and like, yes, yes, walks right right past
them. Yeah, yeah, I see I remember seeing that and I missed
it the first time. Yeah, isn't that crazy? What your mind focuses
on. Yeah, you know, but yeah, there's and it's very fun
because you know, I've got a friend that is Ah, he's a retired
US marshall and he's very perceptible to I mean just really he walks into a
room, right and he just reads the room and he knows where people are
sitting and what they're wearing with without you know, just a glance. Right.
Well, he's trained to do those sorts of things, and he can
spot those little nuances that that are happening, you know. And it's funny
because I'll test him when we're sitting there and I said, Okay, there's
two guys sitting behind us, you know, and uh, they're sitting across
from each other part of their wear. And he'll go, they're not sitting
across from each other, they're sitting right beside each other, and there's a
woman across from them, and he'll tell me what they're wearing. And it's
just amazing at just how a stude he has become to being able to do
that. So it's it's it's a pretty cool practice. Have you have you
gotten better noticeing stuff with you? Is that something you've cultivated yourself. I
think so. I think I've gotten to the point where I've really taught myself
to look for those those oddities, those those things that just don't belong or
and like I said, you know, my friend the marshal, you know,
he's he's taught me a lot about that as well, because you have
to be aware of your surroundings all the time, especially if you're going to
go out into the woods looking for bigfoot, You're better be knowing what it
is that you're looking for and what's around you already. You know. It's
kind of an asset mapping practice. You know, you look at what's there,
what's already around you, and not just in your general surrounded area,
but what's beyond that, you know, and then you put those things into
that that picture. Was there any useful tips he gave you, as far
as you know, mental practices he does, or a checklist of things he
mentally goes through when he enters a new area, or you know how he
gets so good at it. Well, you know, I've I've asked him
that a thousand times. He's given me a few little pointers here and there,
you know, like okay, when you when you first, walk into
a room, number on what's the geometry of the room, how's it laid
out? You know, is it a square room, is a rectangle?
If it is, how's how's it laid out with the furniture that sort of
thing. And start there with a basis like that, and then put the
people into that picture, because everybody's going to be not just static, but
there's going to be other people that are moving as well. So so when
you you're looking at that room, get you a basis, get you a
layout. Basically, you're you're drawing that that room in your mind, and
then you put those people into those places. And then you think ahead,
like if this waitress was over here a moment ago, and you know that
there's people down here waiting on her, she's going to be back and forth.
So there's going to be interaction between that two. So remember those those
types of interactions and that'll help you, you know, pinpoint where different people
are located, you know, and just little things like that. But it's
it's helped. But I don't think I'll ever be as good as him,
because I think there's some real scientific training by what they do, not just
you know, the few little tips he's given me for sure, assuming he
maps all the eggs, it's too yeah, all the entry points. But
on TV they just enhanced that stuff, you know, but it's it's real.
He says. You walk into a room, you know where the exit
points are, you know, and he's one of those that never sits with
his back to the door. Yep, yep, that's that's always a good
strategy. Yep. Yeah, definitely gets strategy. So what what what's on
your mind these days with this topic? What are you currently like excited about
researching? You know, one of the things that we were talking about earlier
is that the spirit the spirituality and how it's you know, part of the
physical world, and what what can we do to really tap into that and
to to really see that and understand that and interact with it. Because it
seems like all the stories and from the people that I've talked to are something
else interacting with them, but not you know, uh, them interacting together.
You know, it's just something that's happening to them, not with them.
So I think that's one of the things that I'm kind of really more
interested in right now, is that, So how do we tap into that?
How do we connect with that spirit world, you know, and how
do we interact. So I think that's that's kind of a fascinating topic.
Have you have you ever done like a like a meditation practice or gone We're
done like Alaska, or done some thing to try to tap into this this
realm or this area or explore it. Yeah, you know, I've tried
on my own through types of some some meditation and some things like that,
but I don't think that I've gotten anywhere where I really want to be with
that. So it's still a very young practice for me. But yeah,
I'm trying to hone some of those skills so that I can be more perceptible
to that, because, like I said, I think people are just some
people are just more perceptible to those things. And I don't know that's a
that's somewhere I really want to put a little bit more time and effort into
what uh this is from a listener, polary your thoughts if any, about
having at least three people engaging in quantum entanglement questions. Oh, well,
if you didn't take a moment, digest can take a moment, possibly a
year quantum entanglement. Wow, Yeah, you know, I don't know.
I don't know if I have any thoughts right now. That's cool, that's
a toughie. That's very interesting though. You've Sasquatch wizard. You've stumped our
guests. Congratulations, You're gonna meditate under a tree for a year with this
question. I'm telling you, man, well, a couple of things happen
happened to me when when I was younger that that made me really want to
start trying to tap into that. And one in particular was, well,
it's it's it's an interesting story. H what happens. I didn't mean to
cut you off. I just but he had all at all, he said
in short of speaking about the strength of prayer being used to communicate with sasquatch.
Does that does that help? Yeah? Yeah, it does. I
think that's where what we were talking about, with the spirit world being uh
the same as the physical world. Uh. You know, that's where a
lot of our Cherokee beliefs came from. And that is something that I think
every morning. You know, my my grandma she would go to water,
and that's a very religious practice for her to go to water and to bathe
the way all all those those those negative thoughts, those negative feelings, those
energies and stuff, and to basically re energize with with new positive energies and
things. And I think when people do that together, those those types of
spiritual practices, I think they can uh tap into that that spiritual world more
readily. Uh. And that's uh, that's something that's been very important within
the Cherokee people, the Cherokee tribe and a lot of other different tribes.
Uh, you know, being able to go to water and to to re
energize with that that focus uh and uh, well to really to get refocused
where you can actually be more one and more synergistic with the uh, with
the spiritual and the physical world. So I think there's something to that.
It just makes sense. Why why couldn't we as a group have more strength
and more power to communicate into that that spiritual realm. So, if you
know, in regards or tribe or any of the other tribes you've engaged with,
what, what are your thoughts or their thoughts on stuff like astral projection
or lucid dreaming. How does this play into any of this stuff with the
spirit realm if at all? Well, you know, I've tried to draw
some connection to that because you know, like peotes, ceremonies and and uh
sweat large ceremonies and things like that. I think are probably the closest connection
to something like that. And I've, like I said, I've not been
one that's raised tradition. You know, I've got friends and relatives that that
have been and are more versed in that. But it's something that I want
to get in a little bit more into and learning, learning from those folks
and some of the elders and stuff. Another uh do you want to read
the question? Sure, So the big Foot influencers, they asked if do
you think some people are more prone to the ability to tap into the spiritual
world? You think there's yeah, some people. Yeah, I really do.
I think that. Uh. One of the things is to me,
I believe is very important aspect behind behind it is the environment which somebody has
raised. Yeah, I think they're probably more perceptible to that and have that
ability to do that because of the way that they were raised and the things
that were held important to them. So they're they're trying to or they've taught
themselves or they've been taught to look for those things and to be able to
use certain aspects of of their their mind, their spiritualness to connect with that.
So yeah, So I know you have a chapter in your book where
you talk a little bit about like a man who thought he was going through
sleep paralysis. Can you tell me a little bit more about that story.
I was really intrigued. I'm someone who struggles with sleep paralysis like every other
night, so that was kind of creepy and scary. Yeah, And you
know, it's I think sleep paralysis is something that it's it's it's it's probably
fairly more common than a lot of people to really realize, because I mean
I've talked to other friends and stuff too. This. You know, I
think I was asleep, but this happened to me. Well, that particular
story that you're talking about, it was it was it was late one night
when came home and uh, he's he's going to bed, but he you
know, he takes a shower, gets ready to go to bed. The
wife and the baby or in another room. So he goes into the back
room to uh to sleep, to not disturb him, you know, and
lays down and he's facing the wall, not the door, and he hears
these footsteps coming down the hall and he thinks that it's his wife coming to
check on him or whatever. But then the footsteps are start running now and
then the next thing you know, they jump on him and they're holding him
down and he can't move. He's just completely frozen. He's he's screaming in
his mind, but nothing is coming out of his mouth. He can't talk.
He's just he's just paralyzed. And he's for maybe ten fifteen seconds,
and he's just struggling with everything he's got and then all of a sudden it's
gone. It's off of him, and he's looking around. There's nothing there.
He said, why do wake this entire time? Now, I've talked
to other people that have that very similar experience that they're being held down,
you know, and they can't move and it's it's it's very frightening. Yeah,
and that's exactly my experience. Every night with me. It happens where
like I'll see like a black I can only describe it as a shadow person.
That's like I see it climbing on the ceiling and then it'll drop on
me and hold me down and just yeah, and then one second to the
next it just disappears. Completely. Yeah, that's that's a terrifying experience,
you know. And I think and you look back and there's a lot of
stories throughout history about that same thing, the old Hag syndrome. You know,
that's that's what that that is. And like I said, I think
a lot how do people actually experience that and maybe not realize that that that's
what's happening, that's that's sleep paralysis and it can be very frightening. Oh
yeah, I mean in Mexico we say that dead guy's on you. Yeah,
I've heard that. Yeah. Do you do you think uh it's from
a listener. Do you think there's some overlap with this sucky this literature,
with these kind of experiences. He was thinking that maybe it does, but
he's not sure. You know, yeah, I would. I would think
so too, because like we were talking earlier, I think every story,
in every myth or anything like that, has some basis of reality, right,
So I think a lot of that, does it. Yeah, see
that another when they're you know, it says held down by the shadow,
the old Hag. Yeah, the Old Hag syndrome. It's it's a very
common thing, that's that's happened. So, yeah, definitely creepy. I
mean, one of the worst experiences ever. Yeah, imagine. So how
often does this happen for you? Oh? God, you know what.
I've noticed it peaks when I'm really stressed, but it happens pretty often.
I mean at least once a week. Yeah. Yeah, Well, the
guy I talked to, he says it's it's not happened very often, but
when it does, it's it's very very real. Yeah, it's not like
he said, never sleeping. I swear I'm not asleep. It never fell
asleep, but yeah, why to wake this entire time? But yeah,
it's just terrifying. Yeah, and I feel like that's definitely the worst part
of all because I'm I'll be like awake and like I can see my whole
room, you know, I can see Alex sleeping right next to me,
and I can't move. I can't you know, ask for help. I
can't do anything. So yeah, definitely terrible. And I think someone in
the commons said I have a demon attached to me. And I've heard that
before, Like I've been told that. For a while there, I had
a shadow person follow me around and it seemed like even if I yeah,
I had like five years where I was moving every single year because this thing
was just following me everywhere I went. And then I got like a cleanse
done in Mexico by my family and so far, so good right now,
But yeah, sleep paralysis is the one thing that remains. So if any
anyone in the commons knows what I can do, anything's appreciated. Yeah,
did I I'm sorry I missed this part of the conversation. Did you have
any anything she could do? Paul? Have you heard of anyone having success
getting rid of this? Now? You know, I've talked to some folks
that have had a medicine man come into the home and you know, smoked
the home off and down and a smudge ceremony and stuff. But it's it's
not completely worked. So you know, it sounds like, I say,
maybe helped a little bit, but not completely. I see, Laurie says,
can I talk? Does she mean like during a sleep paralysis? Okay,
I don't know. Well has it been oh my god, for probably
now it's going on seven years, seven eight years. It started when I
was pregnant, like crazy enough. Yeah, but does it when it does
it seem to get more intense or or has it lessened up in the intensity
of it, like I said, like it has less in the intensity,
but like I don't see the shadow people anymore at all. That completely went
away after the cleanse. But the sleep paralysis is what just does not leave
me alone, right, Yeah, And you know, like it's like a
thing where I feel like I'm fighting for my life every single night and that
or not every single night, but you know, like pretty often. And
then when I do wake up, you know, I'll scare Alex because I'm
like screaming bloody murder and I finally can get it off me. Yeah.
So yeah, during the experience, no, I can't well, like I
fight for it, like you know what, I feel like something's holding me
down and just I can't get it off me. And I'm trying to scream,
like I try, I just feel like my voice is trapped. Yeah,
And that's the same theme through the people that I've talked as well,
is their mind is still very active, very alive, very aware of everything
that's going on, yet they cannot do anything to move their body or tongue
or anything. Yeah. And like for me too, it's any open door
is terrible for me. Like I sleep I have. We have to close
every single door in the house, like closets, the bathroom door and bedroom
door, everything, because like that's my most recurring sleep paralysis is I'll see,
like this is very creepy figure come through the door, or like peek
at me through an open door and then come on top of me, or
like it'll creep from the door to the ceiling, and you know, close
doors just seem to help more. I don't know why. Yeah, I
was also told to never put a mirror in front of my bed, like
that was also not helping any deors have any significance n in any of these
tribes as far as them being magical or you know, I've heard it like
just in other places that there are places I don't know where, like yeah,
like take what you said, like they're like portal. Oh that yeah,
like mirrors act as like ports to the spiritual realm. Yeah, I've
heard that many times. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
No, I've heard that same thing, and you know, I'd like
to explore that just a little bit more. But at the same time,
it's kind of a scary world to even try. Oh yeah, that's why
I haven't done left on it exactly, so I think doctor d Mitchell here
says I may have missed this. Do you think there's an insighting event that
started the sleep paralysis. Yeah, Like, I don't know how much I
like believe in this or not. But while I was pregnant, I had
somebody deliver this like small package in front of my Like I just went outside
one day outside my house in Mexico and there was a small package filled with
like what we call bruhia or like like a witch's magic kind of deal.
And it had like it had feces in it, It had like chicken feet,
it had hair, it had like burnt paper, you know, like
all the signs of witchcraft at least where I were from and what we believe
in. But yeah, I don't know. That's why my family did the
cleanse. Yeah, I didn't touch it because I was like, I'm not
gonna deal with this. I've heard I've heard stuff. I'm like, I
don't know. Yeah, and I've heard things like that too, And I've
also talked to elders and stuff said, you really need to find the most
powerful medicine man that you can to be able to to to make you a
medicine to ward this off, because you know, and that's the thing with
within the Cherokee tribe, the witches, and they're they're different curses and things
that they can put on you and stuff. You know. Most medicine men
can can see them, but you necessarily cannot see, uh you know that,
which like the raven mocker for instance, that's one that that you can't
see. Or they can disguise themselves as a family member or something like that,
but a strong medicine man is able to see through that disguise. So
yeah, well, definitely interesting. What did oh? I did see the
previous one for I'm predible still get hitchhikers after big foot encounters? Huh,
I don't know what the do you think he's getting at, Paul, I'm
not sure hitchhikers one? I don't know. Do you want to clarify that?
Todd? Well? Someone asked how are medicine man chosen and how do
they reach that status? Uh? I don't know. I mean it's different.
I think it varies by culture, right, Like, Yeah, my
great grandfather was a shaman, you know, and he was just taught by
his ancestors and you know, it succeeds back. I don't know in your
culture, Paul, what if it's different than that. Yeah, I mean
it's it's pretty much the same thing. I mean, they're they're taught from
a very young age by you know, other medicine man, and it's it's
kind of passed down, but it's not a guaranteed thing from you know,
from generation to generation. Yeah, it's yeah, because some of them are
well, I guess in a way they are chosen by that particular medicine man,
whether or not they have the uh the strength of the fortitude to learn
that and to be become uh you know what they need to be, you
know, for for their teachings. So so I guess in what Yeah,
they are definitely so. I think what the earlier listener was saying was that
basically these things come home with them or they follow them. If you heard
about that, like you know, someone has an encounter and suddenly either having
encounters around their house or you know, nearby like this again, this thing
followed them back to their their place. Yeah, you know, I've actually
talked to a few people that have that very thing. Because even though and
a lot of people think that yeah, if it could be due to h
I don't want to use the word haunting because the word itself, I think
it just has a different stigma to it. But I don't think it's necessarily
to place. I think it's more two people, because people talk about the
people are more perceptible than others. So I think it's it's something that that
somebody can carry with them and it's not necessarily to the place. So you're
saying, if you're haunted, it's not as easy as selling the house,
you got a bigger problem. Yeah. Debra is asking Paul, do you
have any dog man tales? You know that that's very interesting in the Cherokee
we really don't have any dog mantel. And what's really fascinating though, like
I said before, we don't really have any Bigfoot stories to speak of other
than the one that that Mooney had had talked about in his Book of Sacred
Formulas, and that one. You know, all the others that I've talked
to and the other Cherokee language speakers that I've talked to said that that's even
though there's a lot of striking similarities to Bigfoot, that's not a story of
Bigfoot. But every one of them have a little bit different tale about what
that story is really about. Is it about a great hunter or is it
about doing you know, what you're told, what you're asked to do?
You know, because in the end of it, uh, it's it's about
the village themselves. That when one person breaks the rule, it punishes the
entire village, you know, And maybe that's the essence of the story.
You know, you have to come together and live more harmoniously and work together.
But if you've got that that one just that one person, that one
bad apple, I guess can can rest of the car, right, So,
yeah, for sure. Oh so someone here said, Mudge, you're
home with sage, open every drawer and door. Yeah. I think we
did that once already too. Yeah, I've heard sage is very good for
you know, showing away spirits. Yeah. Yeah, and we use sage,
but cedars is probably the most I think one of the most powerful that
we use here. And I think that comes from, you know, from
our ancestral homelands too, you know, the Tennessee, Georgia, the Smoky
Mountains, you know that area there You're gonna find more seedar than you would
sage. Okay, seater, Yeah, we should try seater maybe around the
house. Yeah, definitely worth a shot. Yeah. I think we've only
had one encounter here since we've been in this house. I stayed here alone
one day and I kept hearing someone pacing back and forth in my hallway and
then I heard like everyone was opening every single drawer in the house. Like
I had to call Alex to come to come back, and like, oh,
I'm so sorry, I just ripped his headphone out. I tell him
a nevie at this, but yeah, I Alex had to come home from
work because, yeah, to check on me, because I thought somebody had
broken into the house, you know, right, and it was nothing.
We had like burned stage afterwards, and yeah, yeah, it's very similar
here. You know, open all the windows, open the doors, open
every drawer, all of that, you know, just so that the evil
spear can't have a place to hide. Yeah yeah, And like then that's
the other thing, like we were talking earlier, like how do you even
know if it's evil or not? You know exactly? Yeah, I mean,
besides the sleep paralysis, it really hasn't been anything harmful, mostly scary.
Yeah, Laurie was saying, you have to smudge the like the sage
or the seer or the right way. Oh, we're accidentally making the words,
Laurie. We gotta talk like, you gotta show me something to Paul.
If you're gonna talk like, you gotta get certified. You can't just
be We gotta do a couple of cleanses here. Wikipedia. No, Yeah,
well, you know, that's that's one of the things here. You
know, when when the church nation builds a home for someone, that's one
of the ceremonies that that we go out and do. Is that that smoking
off ceremony, you know, and it's it's it's generally cedar, but it's
it's a very important thing, you know, to first of all, to
make that person feel very comfortable with that house. But you know, we
have some very good medicine man within our tribe that we know and that can
do these things. But yeah, it's it's important to us. Yeah,
oh my god, definitely. And I think it's very interesting how like,
even though we have you know, totally different cultures, different locations and everything,
like a lot of these traditions are still the same, you know,
and the beliefs and spirituality and higher beings and right, yeah, very amazing.
Use black salt offs agency or cedar aren't enough, okay, m interesting,
Yeah, a lot of remedies out there in this in just this field
in general, you know, broadly speaking, bigfoot, paranormal UFOs. If
there's one thing you could get people to understand or at least consider, what
would it be. Oh, that's that's tough, you know. But I
think one of the things that I try to talk to a lot of people
about is is have an open mind and with that, you know, open
yourself up to the world of possibilities. Uh, don't think in concrete terms,
you know, because it's it's not a black and white world. Obviously,
there's a lot to it that that we just don't understand. And if
you can get anybody even interested in these topics, that that's the most important
thing I think you can do is enter into it with a blank slate,
you know, and try to absorbed as much much information as you can before
you really make any judgment calls, you know, when I when I interview
people, Uh, that's the you know, you don't want to be judgmental
right off the bat, so be unminded. You want to wait a while
they get judgmental and cranky and just opinionated. What do you think of the
generations? Do you think we're becoming more disconnected from the spiritual? Do you
think we're becoming more closed minded as science becomes more and more prevalent to worry?
Do you think people are starting to feel like, well, we've got
it all figured out. I think there's a there's a lot too that because
I think people are so I hate to say it like this, but self
absorbed because of that that cell phone interface all day, you know now,
and they're so disconnected from the real social world. You know, social media
is just it's not real. You know. There's time when you've got to
put that that that smart phone down because it ain't so smart, you know,
and and just get into the real world again and start interacting. Yes,
after this interview, not not right now, this is important, guys,
but after please put the phone down. But yeah, you know,
that's that's important, I think, though, yeah, yeah, I think
make time for that. How how have you balanced that? Do you do
you have like just periods of time where you'll engage obviously, you know,
as an investigator and an author. I imagine maybe you feel pressured to use
some of this if if nothing more than to get the word out. But
you know, how do you how do you not let this take over your
life? Oh? That's been the struggle is real, you know, because
it is one of those things where a lot of times at night, when
I when I go, when I get home, it's just I need to
disconnect period, you know, and just put it all the way and and
just go out into the woods, go for a walk, walk barefoot,
you know, connect with the earth again, you know, and re energize
with that. There's there's something to that. Yeah, take your shoes off
and walk barefooted through the yard. You know. I think it's important that
we get away from that technology and the electronics and stuff and make sure that
you have time, you know, to realize where we come from. Yeah,
for sure, definitely. Well, I you know, I thank you
so much for coming on the show. This has been incredible. You've been
amazing. You've been a gentleman, a scholar. This has been fascinating.
We would love to have you on again. But before we wrap things up,
you know, what's the what's the best place for people to connect with
you? Reach out, find your work. Yeah, I just want to
say, please everyone check out his book. It's on Amazon, Bigfoot,
UFOs and the Paranormal True Encounters. You've got other books as well, but
please, What's what's the best way to people to find your work and learn
more about Yeah? Right now, the best place is right there on Amazon
where you can find all the different works and stuff. And there's more to
come after that one there, because I've got so many more interviews that I'm
sorting through to put into volumes two and three, and my email it is
right there too. I love hearing from folks because so many people have had
so many fantastic experiences and stuff and want to get that story out there and
want to tell somebody, talk to somebody, So reach out to me at
at pg Buckner at yahoo dot com. I'll love to hear from folks and
absolutely find all my stuff right there on Amazon. Well, thanks, thanks
again, Paul, good night everyone, and take care. Thank you guys.
Call you up feeling lit up tonight, be bothered by dreams and feel
it all day. You give me comforts, say just give it some time.
By the end of the talk, I'm feeling just fine. You and
I'm always known when we be love they seem not, and every love got
go in all. I'll preak, get up and up fifteen I fard we
hit. I'm down the road until we get board just doing, and the
sun and the wind get gloracious cockfall a will head on home again. Everybody
else can't see where we being all. Oh we know and every love got
go in all at the end of the world together forever swater and I way
you better you should be in down in our prey. We never can put
us apart, and always all the time. It would be together every day,
but I know it never will be let a strained by my way,
by the home. Do you again, every end of the world together forever
is wan and alway. If ever you should be in down, and I
pray they never can puse a part in love way at the end of the
world together forever is one a a way. If ever you should be in
downt and our prey. They never can pus apart in all way w time
when we meet together every day and had no they never strain