Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO
news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your
host, Alejandro Roja. That is right, I am the host, Alejandro
Roja. Hello everybody, and thank you for joining us at Open Minds Radio.
I want to talk about something exciting. Last night, Coast to Coast
Antonio and I stood up into the wei stayed up into the wee hours of
the morning in order to bring to the tens of thousands of millions of Coast
to Coast listeners. Well they might not have quite that many, but they
have a whole lot of them. I'll tell you what to talk about UFOs
with our good buddy guest host George Knapp. That was a lot of fun.
Hopefully you were able to tune in. If not, check out the
archives. Just go to Coast to Coast. They used to call it Streamlink,
but now it's called the Coast to Coast Insider, and it's actually not
a bad deal, like five bucks a month or something like that, and
you can have access to all of the archives. So get in there and
download all of the Alejandro and Antonio Coast to Coast appearances, because there's that's
like my sixth time on Coast to Coast I think, so I'm very proud
to have obtained that because I remember thinking, wow, that'd be kind of
crazy of us on Coast to Coast one day and here I am number six,
number seven. I'll probably be right around the corner. So that was
a lot of fun. And if you are joining from that, if you're
a new listener because of Coast to Coast, thanks for coming and thanks for
hopefully enjoying then our Coast to Coast appearance, and I hope you enjoy the
show because this is going to be a great one. In fact, honestly,
this is kind of an interview I did a while ago that we're going
to be playing later. However, John Schuschler, who is the interview e,
he was a founding member of MUFON. He was the second international director
of MUFON. He was for quite some time, even when I started,
he was the international director. He worked in the space industry for his entire
career as an engineer and at NASA, and in fact he was a director,
so he was in charge of some very important projects including some related to
the Gemini missions, which was prior to the Apollo missions. It was our
first you know, ventures, manned ventures into space, our first spacewalk stuff
like that was Gemini. N Back then at started seeing UFOs and he was
concerned about that, and that really got him into the whole UFO subject.
And he's gonna tell us all about that now. I'm friends with John because
luckily he lived in Colorado and so did I, and that's how I got
associated with the board members of MUFANS because I lived in Colorado and that's where
the headquarters were. So he was a mentor of sorts for me. And
unfortunately, I've been trying to get him on the show for quite some time
now, but his health has not been that great and so he doesn't feel
that he could, you know, kind of stay up and talk for an
hour, So he hasn't been giving many interviews or doing many lectures lately.
And his lectures are wonderful. They're incredible. Really, he can stand up
there for an hour or two just showing government document after government document. And
I'm not talking about controversy MJ twelve documents where you know, nobody's quite sure
if they're real or not. These are our Freedom of Information Act, real
documents that you can show, our actual military documents regarding UFO cases and UFO
investigations and all of the people involved with UFOs. So it's it's very cool
to have those that have seen those lectures back then. And also you know
his involvement with NASA and talking about how NASA works, how the secretcy has
happened, and how they were told to deal with UFOs and his insider information
on how they deal deal with UFOs. So it's invaluable information. And I
wanted to make sure, because I haven't had this interview, you know,
on the podcast before, get this out to you guys, because I know
you will love it. Some of you might have heard it because I had
it posted on UFO think Tank, but really it hasn't gotten too many listens
there, so only you hardcores have heard it, and there's probably quite a
few you hardcourse here listening today and thanks for returning hardcourse, hardcorese rock and
SODO newbies, so and this is going to be a great interview for either.
I also wanted to mention that you have to go to a URL called
contact inthedsert dot com and when you get there, you need to register for
the weekend June third to the fifth, twenty eleven, because this is going
to be a cool event at Joshua Tree put on by our good buddy Steve
Murrillo, and he's essentially having a little conference out in Joshua Tree, the
beautiful area in California. It's a park with pretty rocks and trees and if
you've seen the Joshua Tree, they're very unique. And you two did a
rock video out there and everything and that was really cool. But this is
going to be a real fun conference. He's going to focus it kind of
around experiencers and abduction. He's going to have doctor Roger Lear, doctor David
Jacobs of Von Smith, He's gonna have Stan Romanek and me and even though
he doesn't have me up on the website yet, and I'm gonna give him
an earfull for that, what's up Marillo? But he actually I am going
to be speaking there, assuming the event happens, and I hope it does
because it's going to be a lot of fun. But he needs a few
more registrations, So if you can go check it out and register you'll be
guaranteed a good time. Open minds. He's going to be there, Jason
will be there, well maybe hopefully, and I know Maureen's planning on being
there. Maureen or UFO Chick for those of you in the chat Blue Recover,
but sure cover was blowing a long time ago, So come check us
out of contact in the desert. It's going to be a lot of fun
and we're really looking forward to that. Also, just right after that in
July also is the MOFON conference, so the move On Symposium, and they're
going to have an astronaut story musk Grave, so that's going to be a
lot of fun too. So we have a summer full of eupological fun and
craziness. And by craziness I mean Maureen. I'm sure it's going to get
crazy and run wild in the desert because she's a crazy woman. So that's
going to be a lot of fun. Moving on to the news, you
might have notice if you went to our website there's this ufone news type of
stuff and we call ourselves like the UFO News ASSORTI And you're like, what
is that, And well, what that is is we put up all of
the news going on in the UFOs because, believe it or not, there's
a lot going on in this field. Just like we talked about in Coast
to Coast, we filled three hours worth of ufone news and information, and
so you can go to our website to see headlines on a daily basis of
news stories that are happening out there. And then what we do on the
radio shows, we bring this guy, Jason McClellan. This guy's a flipping
genius. He's got all this information and he's got all this news and then
he comes here and tells us all about it. So I'm really happy to
welcome Jason McClellan to the show to share all the news. Jason, why
are you giving me a funny look? Talk some news? Bavid. UFO's
in the news. That's crazy. Yeah, it's wild stuff. Greeting Zalahandro
and hello everyone. This is your Open Minds News brief for Monday, March
twenty eighth, twenty eleven. A triangular formation of lights was seen hovering above
Lafayette, Colorado, lost Monday, and the event was captured on video by
Leroy Vandervet and his son Nick. The three solid red lights hovered silently in
the sky. According to Vandervet, there were several witnesses to the UFO.
ABC News reportedly called the Federal Aviation Administration, but they declined to comment on
the UFO. Morning America even visited Lafia to investigate the sighting. And perhaps
the most in depth coverage of this sighting has been done by UK newspaper The
Daily Mail, illustrating the international coverage of the event. And this happened more
than a week ago now, and still today it's making international headlines. Yeah,
it's kind of been slow to get out there, but it's gotten out
there for some reason or other. And I know it got popular this weekend
because it was like the Today Show or something like that that aired some of
the video. And it's funny how this happens with sightings. You know,
there are so many sightings that happen all over the world every single day,
but there seems to be something that causes the media as a whole to latch
onto one particular story and kind of run with it, and then everybody picks
it up and you see the video everywhere. It's big news for several days
and then it's gone. At least this is a decent video. I mean,
it's nothing that extraordinary, you know, but it is a typical type
of sighting. It's at very strange lights that you can't really say what,
at least for me, I can't say for sure what they are. I
really haven't seen even in the news stories much debunking going on. Are people
saying that, you know, they know what that is, right, So
the news stories have played it pretty straight. And it is actually in the
area of the Moufon headquarters. Interesting, yeah, but yeah, a lot
of big media outlets have shown this video on TV Good Morning America and yeah,
so and there was it's not too similar, but sort of similar video.
In the UK, a British man managed a video tape a UFO a
couple of weeks ago while he was watching the super Moon on the night of
the super Moon. He described the UFO as three huge red lights moving information
the sky in total silence. However, Essex Police say they didn't receive any
UFO reports that weekend. But again there's a video of three lights in the
sky moving and like the Colorado video, and according to the witness, he
didn't feel that it was a single craft. He thought the lights were independent.
They were moving together but also independently. Yeah, and that's what you
see in the second video. You definitely see the lights moving into formation and
they change, you know, formation, so it's not a single craft.
And interesting too that the videos were so similar because I saw that super Moon
one first actually, and I thought, well, it's kind of a cool
video. It's it's a typical signing. It's one that most likely isn't a
hoax. I mean, because hoaxes are cg's and if you're going to take
the time to CG something, you're going to do more, something more extraordinary
than these kindy little lights that are you know, kind of just floating in
the air. So it seemed legitimate. Plus the witness and the news that
it came out on, so it seemed pretty good. And then you see
the Colorado one, which is similar, just a little bit better of a
video, and it just the similarities I thought were pretty incredible. I thought
so too, And you know, there are two sightings that are still making
headlines today. Yeah, so it's interesting that two very similar sightings, yeah,
are in the news at the same time. And I like the supermon
the super moon unfortunately it was cloudy for us, so I really didn't see
much of it, but yeah, prior to them naming this event the super
moon, my buddy in high school had that guy's nickname. He had the
title of having the supermon I can imagine one. All right, Thank you
for sharing, Alejandro. I haven't done a poll in a while. Let's
talk about a poll. A one hundred. Several evidence of Maryborough, Queensland,
on Australia's East Coast, reported seeing strange lights in the sky earlier this
month. According to local newspaper The Fraser Coast Chronicle, their office has been
flooded with calls and messages from people who witness the lights, people concerned about
the lights, and people who claim to have interacted with extraterrestrials. The overwhelming
response from readers in response to the initial reports about the mysterious lights prompted the
paper to place a poll on its website which posed the question are aliens visiting
Earth? An incredible sixty percent of the poll's nearly two thousand participants think that
extraterrestrials are visiting Earth. Perhaps more surprising is that twenty percent of those who
responded to the poll claimed to have met an extraterrestrial Wow. While the Chronicles
poll is non scientific, the results are still surprising. You know, all
of these non scientific polls that people put up, and I'm talking about from
credible news sources. A lot of times I'll kind of pop up poll up
on their story. Do you believe in UFOs? You do not? Do
you believe in ets? And always, even if they're AOL or if they're
in their Time or Fox or whoever it is, even though it's at a
news source that isn't catering to the UFO crowd, the numbers are always really
high. It could be because you know, people who believe are more likely
to look at a story about UFOs, but still the numbers are always really
high. Well, this one, you know, it's different from most of
the poles we see. Most of the ones that we hear about are in
response to UFOs or extraterrestrial life in general. But this one actually mentions extraterrestrials
coming to Earth. Yeah, and again the other poles that we've seen,
I think the response, the percentage we usually see is about fifty percent.
Now are we up to fifty percent? Well, the latest polls have actually
been in the thirty I mean the ones that are scientific are in the thirty
to thirty to fifty, right, So this one's showing sixty percent. Yeah,
thinking that we've been visited by extraterrestrials is incredible. Yeah, yep.
I mean the movies too, you know, George and Abascus last night.
Why so many movies, And it's because people are interested in the subject,
you know, even though it doesn't feel like it. When you go out
into the public and people seem skeptical and when you tell them, you know,
you work for a UFO magazine, they kind of think that's weird or
whatever. Still, the polls, even the scientific poles always say thirty to
fifty percent. That's a lot of people, right, And you know,
you can talk to conspiracy theorists who have their ideas about Hollywood and you know,
wonder about the secret agendas behind all these extraterrestrial themes movies. But you
can also look at it from what Hollywood is, and it's a big money
machine. They're going to do what makes money, and they know right now
Actra treasure movies can make money because the interest is there. Yep. Venezuela's
social President Socialist President Hugo Chavez thinks he knows why we haven't found life on
Mars. During his speech last Tuesday, Chavez stated, I have always said
heard that it would not be strange that there had been civilization on Mars,
but maybe capitalism arrived there. Imperialism arrived and finished off the planet. His
comments are too shocking, however, as Chavez has repeatedly blamed many of Earth's
problems on capitalism. The statement was made during a speech Javez delivered on Tuesday
at a World Water Day event in Venezuela. According to Fox News, this
isn't the first time Javez has referred to life on Mars, and as we
discussed even last week, the Red Plant has been in the news a lot
lately for various efforts underway that will make future missions possible to Mars. Yeah,
like that cool spacesuit we talked about last week. Yeah, the cool
space I think he was kidding. I mean, I think it was kind
of a metaphor for him that capitalism, no matter where it goes, will
destroy everything as his kind of idea. That guy's insane, so who knows,
but well, but he's He's definitely talked about extra trestos before and UFOs
and actually looked into some UFO sidings that he's heard about. Yeah. Well,
and you know, speaking of Mars, there was even a story and
I didn't get to read much of it, but I just thought about a
water powered spacecraft that could hopefully get us to Mars. Earlier, lots of
ideas floating out there on how to get us to Mars. And in fact,
there was also another story about this group who wants to send a little
device because they might be able to prove or their goal is to prove that
life on Mars is related to life here. It's a good thing. That's
not one of my new stories because I would have had to smack you jumping
the gun like that. What if that would have been one of my stories.
Wah wah, wasn't so right? No, no, you're safe.
But no, that's a very good point and that was a really cool story.
I read that today. And even aside from Mars and possibly as a
springboard to Mars, you know, NASA's looking at missions to asteroids and other
things where they can go and then go to Mars from there. Yeah,
weird stuff going on, right, Go to an asteroid, go to the
moon. People, We already told them, you know, playing these games,
and there's so much involved in going to an asteroid, like picking out
the right asteroid and getting the landing and everything. They're even thinking the landing
is going to be impossible, so they're going to just get close to the
asteroid. How the guys get out of the ship and go around the asteroid.
They're just wasting time. Go to the moon. Yeah, what was
the movie where they landed on the asteroid and it was a total disaster.
It was very difficult. Bruce Willet. Armageddon is in that right, Armageddon.
That didn't look fun at all. No people are flying. It shouldn't
work out so well for him. Now, well, NASA's been busy and
data collected by NASA's Kepler Telescope continues to reveal new and exciting information about the
Milky Way Galaxy. Hey that's our galaxy. Oh, I've been there.
It's awesome. Of the twelve hundred possible planets identified by Kepler in February sixty
eight were said to be Earth sized, but The Huffington Post recently reported a
new study by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory that suggests one out of every thirty seven
to one out of every seventy sun like stars may have an earth like planet
in its orbit. Explaining the study, Joseph, let's see catans are right.
I think that's made up. That sounds like some sort of asteroid or
something. That's why the asteroid you're going to land on rock you find on
it. He's an astronomer at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and he told space
dot Com this means there are a lot of Earth analogs out there, two
billion in the Milky Way galaxy. The more scientists learn about our galaxy,
the more apparent it becomes that there is still so much to learn about our
galaxy, let alone far away galaxies. Incredible two billion earthlike planets. Yeah,
and that's just that's short, because it's actually two billion trillion according to
my calculation, billion trillion kajillion is what you told me yesterday. Oh yeah,
and about ten percent of those have advanced civilizations on them. Your calculations
are probably a little low, but I agree they're spot on. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's just what we keep talking about. This.
They discover and discover and discover, and I don't know why they haven't found
this stuff before. But we've talked about this too. How there's been this
illusion that NASA understands what's going on in our backyard, but really they don't.
Right, everything is new every day, it seems, yeah, exciting
times, and we're learning about all this stuffy and that just means, you
know, even though we talk about this stuff, we don't talk to so
it's authoritative and we have all the answers, whereas the astronomers often do that
correct, you know, talking about the SETI astronomers and stuff, especially the
ones that poo poo the extraterrestrial visitation hypothesis and they don't know. Shame on
the poopooers, Shame on the poopooers. Well, here's another study scientists.
Some scientists believe that life existed elsewhere in the universe, but it was wiped
out by exploding stars. The Daily Mail recently reported that some astronomers believe white
dwarf hypernovas have occurred several times over millions of years. These hypernovas create black
holes, and in these black holes is where astronomers believe alien life was sucked.
These same astronomers believe that life on Earth might meet a simil or fate,
but not for a few hundred years, so we're okay for a while.
It's so funny because talk about speculation, that's just like you know,
someone calling, you know, some of these real kind of wild speculation that
we get in this field that happens about, you know, what aliens are
doing and all of this thing when nobody knows for sure, well except for
maybe some that are talking to them, which is possible, but still talk
about wild speculation. With all the room out there, with all the stars
we just talked about, and there's so few examples of black holes that we
know about to just kind of say, oh, you know, intelligent civilizations
are probably set up by black holes. Look, it's a safe paper to
write about. I guess when you can do something like that that can't really
be disproved until you're long gone. Oh right, Ah, we're all going
to be sucked into a black hole, but not for a couple hundred years.
You're gonna be all these series. They're the ones that are gonna come
here. Are gonna be robots. They were saying last week. All the
civilizations are sucked up by black hole. So I guess they can't send us
robots that are all authorities. They know they're they're telling us the way it
is. It's ridiculous, ridiculous. That's pretty wild speculation there. I mean,
if they said it was possible, and I'm sure it is possible and
maybe probable that civilizations out there may have been sucked up by black holes.
Sure, we may be sucked up by a black hole one day, and
we may not bad we get slammed with an asteroid. We may all live
on the moon. I'm gonna write some papers. Pretend I know what I'm
talking about too. You should, and perhaps this could be ridiculous too,
but we'll wait and see. Steven Spielberg is producing a sci fi drama series
about aliens that will be premiering on TNT in June. The name of the
series is Falling Skies, and unlike films like Battle Los Angeles that only look
at the initial attack on Earth by extraterrestrial forces, Falling Skies looks at a
devastated Earth that has been fighting alien forces for half a year. Disappointed.
Oh yeah, already. Yeah. I mean it's as if you know Battle
LA. They've lost the Battle in La and now they've got colonization that they're
fighting against Still, I mean, it's not an original story, not like
Taken, which was very original that was pretty cool, or even Super eight,
even though it's kind of looks like a very It really reminds me the
trailer of Stephen King movie with you know, some unknown monster in a small
town killing animals and killing people. But at least that's a little more original.
Right now, it seems anything that Again, they've they figured out that
they can make money with extraterrestrial movies, but it seems they're stuck in the
mindset of all right, let's have aliens come and attack the Earth, will
fight off the aliens. Aliens don't have to be bad, ye, cocoon.
They were nice? Now he was nice? Yeah, e t like
maybe they think that's just boring, but not. I haven't seen it,
but was Paul nice. Paul was freaking hilarious. You gotta go see it.
You and Marine have not gone and see it, and that's stressing me
out, man, because then we can't talk about the jokes. And it
was hilarious. I just talked to who did I talk to? I've talked
to several friends who have seen it, and they all agree that it's really
funny. You guys are gonna love it, and I think all of you,
as my good buddy Jesse Randolph would call people saucer heads, you know,
ufo people are all gonna love this movie. So you know, I'm
even more excited to see it because it's not a movie about evil extraterrestrials.
Yeah, this guy, well he's not the best example of an extra treastural,
but he's funny. He's like a regular dude, and he's vulgar.
If you don't like bad words, you know, or don't take your kid,
because there's lots of bad words. But other than that, my mom
says, I can't hear bad words, so I'm out. Oh dang it,
maybe next time. Yeah, well you're watching on TV. I don't
know how they're going to censor out all of that, because it was kind
of the bad words were kind of a theme in this thing, actually,
and then they play into the story and I don't want to mess it up
for you. Well, they've managed to do a fine job on TV with
Crabby Your Enthusiasm. Yeah, and swearing is a large part of that show.
Although who's his buddy who lived in the house? Oh, Leroy Leroy,
none of his lines on TV are funny, No, because they have
to edit what he said so much. He doesn't make any sense valid point
all one hundred. That is it's for the news for today. You should
to check out all these stories and more at openminds dot tv, your source
for UFO related news. I'm Jason McClellan, your Open Minds correspondent, and
you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro. Thank you, Jason. Just
to fill you in on some of the other stories that we have up on
the website. UFO Case files Rebuilt, of course, is an ongoing thing
that we've been doing. Michael Strap, who is an aerospace kind of draftsman.
He takes UFO sidings out there from reports and then he kind of makes
a three D rendering of what the people reported and put him up against the
background that is similar to what the witness saw, so you kind of get
a kind of a neat idea of what the witnesses had seen. So we
have another one up on that. And what's cool about this is a lot
of people. In fact, Shastak asked me this question, if so many
people are seeing UFOs wide on astronomer CFOs. Well, they do and they
always have. In fact, one of the sightings in this latest one is
by a gentleman named Professor Clyde Tombaugh, and this was in Las Crucis,
New Mexico, and this was a fairly famous astronomer who had his own sightings,
so you can see what he saw on that story. Pretty exciting,
another really cool story, and this is something that we talked about last night,
and we've talked about this with Antonio before. Antonio, of course,
was at the UN really covering a story in the late seventies when Sir Gary,
Sir Eric Gary of Granada was trying to push forward a UFO initiative in
the UN, and some new British documents in the new batches of files that
they've released kind of show a story, interestingly, of how the British government
was trying to derail this whole process. They were working very hard. In
fact, one of the quotes is pretty deep, pretty pretty cool, they
essentially said, and we have it at the top of the story here that
in one of the quotes, the British government saying that they're firmly opposed to
a Granada resolution on UFOs, and they go on to say, therefore,
make no attempt to conceal the UK's intention, meaning the UK's intention to totally
destroy this resolution on UFOs. Now, the United States government wasn't so against
it. I think they knew even back then that it really didn't have any
teeth. So in other words, you can ask that you get UFO files,
but that doesn't mean you're going to get all the best UFO files.
So it's a very interesting story that Antonio just wrote and we just put up
recently that we talked about it bit on Coast to Coast last night, and
you can get the full story on the website, including so very exclusive photos
of Sir Eric Gary at the UN doing his talk, and also some stamps
that Granada made in regards to this whole UFO initiative, So some really cool
pictures there. So go to Openminds dot tv and check it out. It's
right on the front page. It's in the featured articles. But now let's
go ahead and start our interview with John Schuschler. I'm really excited about this
because we talked about a lot of great things and it's rare that you get
an insight into NASA and hear about these true UFO stories that the NASA administration
has had to deal with in the past. So if we can roll the
interview, well, I got into the UFO as many years ago, back
in the mid sixties. And the reason I did that was I was working
in the space program. I was on the Gemini program. I was responsible
for the life support system on Gemini, and during the missions I listened to
the down link and monitored how the system will performing. And on Gemini four,
which was a man mission with James mcdivot and Ed White, mcdibitt said,
while he was on orbit, there's something up here. I see something
outside and ground control ignored him completely. They didn't say what or why?
Are you crazy? Or you kidding? They didn't say anything. He just
went right on what they were doing, and he said something else about it,
and he said, I'm taking a picture of it. And after several
minutes the ground controller came back and said, are you still seeing something?
Or something like that, and I thought, you know, this is really
something you would think they would think it was a possible danger. You know,
there was something on orbit. Was it debris? Was it something else?
And they never cared, I just didn't care. So that led me
to believe that they must know it's there, and it led him to believe
that he should be a little bit angry. And after he land and several
weeks later he went to the film lab to look at the film and they
showed him something that wasn't what he said he photographed, and so he spoke
out publicly on it. When I was a young engineer, that was fascinating
because we were working seven days a week to get spacecraft up there in many
long days, and something else is there. We ought to know about it.
And that started my chase for the technology involved in UFOs. And that
was the mid sixties. And soon after that I announced, well through my
family first that I was interested in UFOs. And it turned out that my
father, a railroad engineer, had a fireman on his engine, a new
roll andres and Quincy, Illinois, and he said, one of a friend,
Waltz, that's interested in UFOs too. We ought to get them together,
and so they did and we struck off a friendship right away. And
Wall said you want to join APPRO there a phenomena research organization, and I
said, well, if it'll help, and help me get information. I'll
do it. So I joined them and I became a consultant for them for
a short period of time. And that was at a time when APRI was
wanting to pull back and have more home control and less control in the field,
and they kind of felt that, well, it was an upstart.
He was taking too much command out there in the field. So they told
him he couldn't do it anymore, and he said fines, And so he
said, we'll started on an organization. So he and I and several others,
a doctor Allen Nutkeith the University of Wisconsin had a meeting in nineteen sixty
nine and farm roof on and that was the Midwest UFO network, and that
was the start of what we still have today this many years later. We
think it was a good move pulling back and might say censoring the work is
done is not the way to get answers in this field. The way to
get answers is greater cooperation, a greater exposure looking at the varying things involved.
So my start was very early on. It wasn't because there were UFOs.
It would be cause of something that happened in the space program. But
then Very quickly after I mentioned that to Walt and got involved with that pro
I started getting chances for interviews and stuff. And one thing that came into
Walt was an airline pilot of Ozark Airline pilot flying a DC three. His
name was Captain Don Lackner, and he had taken off from Columbia, Missouri,
and right after takeoff, the FAA tower called him and said, you
know, there is something in the sky over Kirkchfille, Missouri. We wondered
if you would take a look. And it turned out that the weather station
in Kirkfille, Missouri, which is north of Columbia, had reported covering above
the weather station at a really high altitude was eight ten thousand feet something like
that. I don't remember the details right now, but so he turned to
water and he immediately could see it even from Columbia, and he talked through
the tower and they guided him, and they even totally when it started to
move, and it didn't start to move, however, he picked up his
handheld out a slight which is a very bright light that hiv in the cockpit,
and he flashed it at it. When he did, it changed colors
and started moving west. In a few seconds, it was out of sight,
and when he got into Kansas City, he checked an his aircraft completed
the mission, went up to the tower and said he wanted to talk to
a radar operator about what was seen over Kirksdale, and they said, we
don't have any idea what you're talking about. You crazy. We haven't talked
to anybody to night about that. So that made him mad, you know,
he said, I possibly put people in jeopardy on an airplane that answering
a request, and you dropped me on my head. But it turned out
there were seven professors from the University of Missouri on that plane and most of
them saw it. He called what they call stirless. Then fight attendant today
to the cockpit and she watched it along with him in the co pilot.
So we had really high credibility witnesses that had nothing to gain from this whatsoever.
And then pretty West intered it for me, there's something flying that we
got to know about. So that's my early days. That's where it all
began. What ways I you'r raw in the space program? Well, I
started out as a just a young engineer doing grant work for the first few
months, but that's the end of the Mercury program McDonald auglas in Saint Louis,
and soon after I transferred into the Gemini program and got involved in the
life support system and the loyal life support equipment, for design, engineering,
the test of the pre flighting and then monitoring doing flight and it was a
lot of responsibility, but the space program did that for people. Anybody that
had the desire and the capability age didn't man, they just gave us the
responsibility, which was marvelous. And so I went through the whole Gemini program
and after Gemini shifted into the Skylab first space station design and was responsible for
life support system equipment on that, including the equipment, the Austian storage thanks
all that kind of stuff, which was really a fun engineering job. It
was very hard, but it was really fun. We built the first regeneratory
CO two removal system for that vehicle, where instead of carrying up chemicals,
you just have a machine that opened and closed and dumped CO two to space
after it took it out, and synthetic zeolites, so you know, it
was fun work. I didn't have much time for UFOs during Skylab, but
when Skylab threw then Pete Conrad said he was a little red thing up there
on order with us, So I got my attention again, you know that
sort of thing. And after Skylab I transferred to Houston, Texas the Johnson
Space Center and worked for a year as a technical manager technical director in the
crew System division, supporting the design of the space suit for the Shuttle and
that sort of thing. Then in the second year on I moved over into
flight operations and it got clear out of design and got into the operation end
of it. Found that fascinating work on training the astronauts and writing all their
procedures and fixing up the flight data files and a little bit of everything.
And then about nineteen eighty three McDonald augus name is Director of Engineering for the
Houston Operations and later on I got into the director of Operations and did a
little bit of everything, ran all the different things like business management, security,
engineering, all those things. And my last job was with McDonald auguson
and bought out by Boeling, was the building of the neutral Buoyancy facility at
the Johnson Space Center. We built the largest water tank around that was heated,
had a real good gas system and all, and that's where all astronauts
train. Now they put the space station in it, and put the shallow
cockpits and buff like that in it and do integrated training. It was one
hundred feet by two hundred feet by forty feet deep and sixty million gallons of
water, A real challenging design in Houston where the water tables about twenty feet
and so we had to build half of it in the ground, half of
it on the ground, and just all kind of fun engineering things. And
after that I decided to call it a day. I've done about everything I
wanted to do in the space program, and the Mars program was too far
off and still is today, so I retired and got involved full time in
UFOs. It seems like there were a lot of projects you work on where
they actually saw something. What would you say was the percentage. Was there
a large percentage of these missions where they saw something that you went in Probably
no, I wouldn't say it was a large percentage. It was probably a
fairly small percentage. And the problem is that many of them never talked about
it. You know, if you saw the recent documentary on the first light
first landing on the Moon, one of the astronauts there said something was out
there, but when we were going between Earth and the Moon, we verified
it wasn't our booster and said what was and he said it was a UFO
And he said that NASA told us not to talk about it, and they
just talked about it in that recent documentary on I think it was on the
Science Channel. I haven't seen that one. I'll have to check that out.
Were there other early UFL organizations that you worked with? So? Like
I said, I worked with the AIR, a phenomenal research organization and got
to know a lot of their consultants and their people, which were really good
people. They had. They had some some tremendous volunteers in that organization and
I really hated to see it go billy up. But it was one of
those things that didn't have a strategy for it living after the after the people
that put it together died, you know, they died with them essentially what
happened. And you got to have a succession plan in organizations, you know,
you always have to have that or the organization doesn't last. I mean,
look at at and T if they'd only had a first president, where
would they be today? They would have been out of business, you know,
or United Ireland or any of the rest of them. So it's not
the people that run it forever. It's the people who run it for the
day, and there's always a good group of people backed by a lot of
other people, and you know, that's kind of the important thing. APOR
didn't have that, unfortunately, they wouldn't let their people take the reins and
do something. I never joined Nightcap because I was in APER. In those
days, if you were in one, you couldn't be in the other,
you know, silly rules like that. I never understood that, but I
guess that's an elitist game that some people play. I have formed a uniful,
steady group of Greater Saint Louis in nineteen seventy or so. It's still
active today, which I'm pleased to say, a lot of nice people there
that have worked on it and are still there and working on it. It
has diminished in size. But other than that, I've not done too much
with other organizations other than cooperate and give them information whenever they ask. My
whole career, I tried to pump the information out there and I'll keep it
in my hip pocket. And I've done it at my own expense always,
and most people don't even say thank you if they feel like they deserved it,
you know, which is why so many people don't do it. You
know, if people say thanks once in a while, a lot more things
would happen for them. But humans are humans, you know, that's the
way it goes. I did get a request to join the Science Advisory Board
for the National Institute for Discovery Science in Las Vegas, the organization that was
financed and back by Bob Bigelow. I worked with him for several years on
this science board. The board of people that Bob asked to volunteer and do
this, we're just tremendous folks, guys like Halpetoff and lunar astronaut Ed Mitchell,
and several people from Los Alamos Labs, and people from various otherisment like
the FAA. And one of the people was an expert in nuclear science.
And so it was a a first group of people that felt it was worth
working together on a subject like this. When they said no scientists work on
this subject, that will laugh. You know. These guys were all a
scientists and they were working together gratefully and doing a beautiful job. It was
run by a scientist. A doctor Colum Killinger was the head of NEDS is
a tremendous scientist to himself, mainly a physical science. He's interested in biological
things of cancer and things of that nature. So he did a good job
when it came to looking into kettle mulitions, for instance, they did some
tremendous laboratory analysis that was groundbreaking that other people didn't do. At one time,
one of the abductees in California said that when he came back, when
he went in his closet, he would meet that's where he would meet the
aliens. And when he came back one time, he'd decided he was going
to trap him, so he had put a towel on the floor of something
under so he'd get an indication they were really there. Pretty smart move,
actually, And afterwards he found this teeth on there. It looked like a
fang, and it turned out it wasn't like anything like any animal thing,
not an ape, not a board, or not any of these things.
And it did have a little hair attached to it, and so NIDS ran
a lot of DNA analysis work on it several places. The first place came
back and said, there are no matches in a database for this, so
this could be alien. Continued the approach and looking into other scientists said well,
what if this towel was taken to the beach, or what if there
was something picked up on the beach. And they found out that this was
sort of like a dry slug what it turned out to be eventually, and
they did find a mash when they got off into that realm. But you
know, that's the kind of science work they did, and people saw why
they worked for the government. They cover up stuff. They don't, that's
ludicrous, they don't. There was some secrecy involved in the job. Bigelow
is always a target for lossites because he got deep pockets, and so he
was very careful about what was released and said it was negative. He tried
not to release it, you know, simply that just avoid losses frivolous lawsuits.
But they put the basis of all of their investigations up on their website
for all to see. Again, nobody said thank you, They said what
did you do more? You know that sort of thing. So when people
try to do science in this field, sometimes they are attacked by the non
zcietists that make a lot of noise and give publicity that way, but don't
do any real work. And I don't like that sort of thing. I
think it's just it's a stupid let me put it bluntly. They can do
a lot more with cooperation. Yeah, that's a difficult part of the field
is you know, there seems to be a lot of fighting and bickering back
and forth. But I think what people don't see is just that the people
who are bickering are the louder people. They're the people who are making more
annoyes where the real researchers are quieter. They just got their nose in their
research and they're getting that data out with NIDS. What are they still around
today? Are they still doing things? No, this went dormant. It's
not out of business, per say, but it's dormant. And doctor Keller
who left NIDS a year or so ago and went into cancer research in California
his first love, by the way, so it was a natural thing for
him to do. But the reason they did that was they were there mainly
for physical evidence, not just reports of ufol of licensed sky and that sort
of thing. They got to the point they weren't getting any good physical evidence
cases. Bob Bigelill said, you know, guys go out there and cooperate
with people and find ways of getting in the good cases. And they were
still weren't able to get any that they could take to a laboratory and analyzed.
During that period of time. He said, well, this is a
waste of time. And he got into the aerospace business and organized big oe
O Aospace, decided he would build hotels for space, and he took up
the idea of inflatable vehicles, and he has done some marvelous work. I've
gone out and viewed the work he's done, his development, his design,
his facilities he's built for it. They're all just a plus work. He's
got good people, he got a small staff. He's going to launch this
probably this year, his first test hotel into space, which I have flooding
for. So he said, I'm just going to put my time and my
effort, my money into that until unless, or until something else comes along
in the uf ful field is worthwhile. So he didn't tell the files away,
and he didn't do all that. They just put it in a DRMA
stage. I'm sure if something really good came up, and once he gets
his hotels up from that sort of thing, he probably returned to it.
Yeah, I think what's mean about that whole field and the commercialization of space
and what Bert Rittan is doing is that lots of those space programs they've seen
things find around up there. So if we have people civilians out there permanently,
I think the odds are then increase that they're going to be seeing things
up there. But with physical cases, since I've been involved with mouf On
and in the research I've done and what I've read in the past mouf On
research, it doesn't seem that physical case has come along very often. I
can only think of one. Are there any many physical cases that you guys
have run across over the years. There have been hundreds of them. I
mean, just look at the work the tenth Phillips did on landing choice cases.
I mean he had some five thousand landing choice cases and he has some
new ones today. In fact, Taylor will be speaking at the mouf On
Symposium in July of this year endeavor. He's going to bring some of that
new physical choice evidence to us, and I think that people are going to
be fascinated about what they got because t is an old timer in the field.
He's started the research into physical choices. He helped develop the techniques for
laboratory analysis of them. He had developed the documentation techniques for physical trace cases,
and now he's still doing it, and I applaud him for that.
They were not as many as there were, and I'm not sure why that
is, but I have a theory. My theory is that the UFO field
evolves with time. I left he back to eighteen ninety seven when they the
airships were flying those essentially where a UFO people say, well, oh,
it was a liar's society and made those stories up and things like that.
If you do personal research into it, you'll find that's not true. That's
nice, the nice way to answer it if you want to debunk it.
But if you really look and see what happened in March April May of eighteen
ninety seven, there were literally hundreds of these sightings. They were not connected
by television or radio or things like that at the time. They did get
into the newspaper, but always several days to weeks afterwards. So while they
were happening, there's no way people could communicate together to across the country and
across the Central States in particular, to duplicate things. It just couldn't be
done. And I did do the research on that because I was fascinated by
it. I'm still fascinated by it, by the way, and I think
there was a treasure trove of information there that a lot of people ignored us
simply called this hold. But then you look on through the different eras we
had, the eras of physical medical injuries and people. We had several years
where that was prevalent. We had several years where car stoppings were prevalent,
you know, like a decade or so. They started as far they build
up fast, and there were lots of them. There was data taken,
the cars were actually analyzed, that sort of thing. Then they dropped off.
The same with the medical evidence. There were hundreds and hundreds of cases
where people had physiological responses to UFOs. They still do on occasion, but
not like that era which ended in the eighties. There was the era of
the abductions, and I say the era of it. We're still having them,
but there was a large surge at one point in time with a tremendous
amount of that that was done in an awful lot of good evidence taken by
the real researchers in the field. It's just it's sort of like there are
ways of Bigfoot and there are ways of other things. You know, there's
an evolution in this. And I keep saying if we could kind of be
futurists and say, well, if it evolved this way in these steps,
what's the next step. What should we be looking for? When the big
triangles started being seen in nineteen seventy four, nobody was ready for that.
We weren't flying triangular aircraft. Then. Even after we started flying the stealth
in the late eighties and the people were seeing that on occasion, that didn't
explain the large triangle. The B two bomber doesn't explain the yards triangles.
Some people were trying to say, well, the B two bomber has anti
gravity systems on it. Well, if you want to be highly technical,
ever had a plane that flies as an anti gravity system because it overcomes gravity
to get off the ground. If you're talking about having a system that nullifies
gravity to get off the ground, you're kidding yourself. I've been hearing this
for fifty years. It's always a black program. It's only it's just a
big black program out there, and that's why you don't know what it is.
But never do you ever see anything come out after the black program that
supposedly ends it can explain it. Not one situation. At one time,
the CIA said, well, the UFOs really were the U two aircraft flying
to sixty thousand feet. Well, none of the reports we got, zero
were from sixty thousand feet. Most of them were from five hundred to year
on the ground or near the ground, that sort of thing. Even though
the CIA said that explained to UFOs, it didn't. Nobody reported that because
you couldn't see it. You know, you had radar, you could track
it, but you and the she had intercepps that were made by our air
Force and Navy and marine pilots over the years. None of those were U
two's. None of those were black programmed things. These were things that the
experts of the day could not explain and still can't today. And I still
say that's a treasure trove of information. You have one general that says,
well, I was flying this aircraft along with these people, and we picked
up on radar something we had checked with the ground and ground and also attracted
it and told us what they were, what they were painting. We dore
at it, We couldn't catch it. It took off and left us enter
tracks and threw out a sight that still happens today. You just don't hear
much about it to day because of the Patriot Act. You know, they
can't talk about it now. So it's it's a good way of covering up
UFOL cases as well un personally. So you know, it's a wild world
of UFOs out there. The stuff is real, and I'd like to say
one thing. UFOs are not everything that's seen in the sky. The UFO
to me is something that's still unidentified after its properly investigated, so that eliminates
the lice and the sky and the hoaxes and anything else of that nature.
And it's that residual that is unexplainable totally. That becomes an unconventional flying object.
And it's not something we're building, and it hasn't been something we've been
building for the last fifty years. I wish we were. That's why I
got involved, by the way, I wanted to build this sort of thing.
I wanted to get rid of fire breathing rockets, and go to a
technology that's environmentally friendly and by the way, will help us survive on this
earth because oil is going to run out. The technology is there. We
just get people to have a Manhattan project where we could develop it probably in
less than five years. Wanted that talks that I heard you do before was
on implants, and that was one of the best soocks I've heard on implants,
and you had the same theme. How implants have also been evolving and
changing over time. Can you talk a little bit on that. Yeah,
implants are an interesting facet that's one piece of information and an abduction case that
is physically real that you can take to the bank or take to the laboratory.
I should say, when somebody says, you know, there's something under
my skin and it bothers me someone people even say, well, I can
feel this intensely just before an abduction. You know, there was all kinds
of things claims made by people or they say, you know, I had
this subduction experience and I had nosebleed for four or five days. Michael Linda
Cortiel case in New York when they had the abduction out of their apartment way
up high in the air, out the wind and up to the craft,
their son and a son's friend that was there that night, and I'd bleed.
The husband also all had nose bleeds afterwards, not a normal nose bleed,
but because something was done. Well, you know that begs the question,
Well, if there was physical evidence from that abduction case, let's get
the laboratory. So various people have taken pieces of material out of abductees.
And you call me experiencers if you want to me, they're still an abduct
either somebody that was taken against their will. They were abducted, you know
how you want to put it, And that's not right. And if you
look at the implants that have been removed, they seem to have evolved over
time. And when we were starting to get these first implant reports, that
wasn't the technology that was used by humans. You know today you say implant
their implants to avoid pregnancy, their implants for hearing, their implants for keeping
your heart going, their implants for everything. The implants they put in the
ears of animals, farm animals to identify they are in the pets so you
can find them if they get lost. These are all different than what was
originally seen. None of these existed back in the early days when abductees are
reporting implants and various medical people removing them. Sometimes they just came out on
their own. And then so if you look at what came out, it
didn't seem to make any sense. And some a few of them had little
microscopic level things that look like little wires attached to them and things like that,
but most of them were pretty blase, and you say, well,
how could that do anything? Well, how do we know if you're looking
at a technology that's ten years, one hundred years, thousand years, ten
thousand years ahead of us, maybe it doesn't have to look like something we
wanted to look like to be useful. And so I say, all throw
away just because you don't understand it. Wait for the technology to catch up.
Well, the technology of implants has caught up, and in fact,
humans are making them for everything. They put them in your garments, they
put them in your books, you know, and everything today. But they're
a lot more sophisticated. They are a little printed circuits essentially in each case,
and some can some are this pass even sitting there. Others are acting
with an antenna. You know, there's all kinds of them today, but
they have definitely evolved and they're very rapidly. Once humans started using this technology,
you say, well, was that stimulated by the implants and abductees?
You know, somewhere along the line it had to be somewhat stimulated by that.
Somebody got to say, well, these people are saying, is why
don't we do this? You know, frankly, I wouldn't particularly want to
be implanted myself by humans or anybody else, but there are lots of people
will go get that done, and I think in another ten to fifteen years
you'll see all humans implanted with an ID national ID implant, regardless of what
country they're in. It's coming. It's going to shake people up, but
it's one of those evolutions that we're going to see. Yeah, which is
unfortunate because that times we implement sciences before we even understand them. But I
also, you know, this talk reminds me of a document that I read
of yours, that you wrote in the seventies about the science regarding that the
objects we're seeing that they're displaying these technologies that are beyond us, but because
they exist, they're exhibiting that that science exists. And that we should move
in that direction. It seems there were a lot of people in that time
period, in the early days at the UFO that were thinking that way,
scientists when they were thinking more scientifically about the subject. Do you think that
worked. Do you think people started moving in those directions because of the sightings?
Well, I'm sure the people that did the actual work was saying,
Oh, that's ridiculous. I thought of it. It was my brainstorm.
You know. That's always the case. Then when you look at any major
breakthrough in science, it usually doesn't happen in one laboratory. Suddenly it pops
out in a half a dozen different parts of the world. We've seen that
over and over and over. You got to say a little bit, well,
why is that there's something else stimulated? And I think there was a
stimulus. It was a stimulus for me to get involved in the UFO research
simply because I wanted to see propulsion technology modified. I still want to see
that. I'm hoping it happens while I'm still around. If it doesn't,
we humans are going to be the losers because the Earth can't sustain us with
the right we're going I guess along those lines, and there's lots of talk
guid the scientist's name who's really big on this allude to me, But there's
of course Bob Lazara, not to what Stephen Greer talks about. With the
zero point energy and the zero point technologies, Do you believe that exists?
You believe we're getting close to that or is there any big money being thrown
at that right now? Well, it's hard to say what kind of money's
being thrown at it the military laboratories and the like, But I can tell
you one of the leading proponents of zero point energy is doctor hell put Off.
I think put Off is probably one of the best scientists that this earth
has ever seen. He is a good guy. He works hard, He
is a brilliant man. He has the scientific and mathematical capability to do things
like this, and so he doesn't He doesn't just rest on his laurel and
throw out some books to make some money. He really gets into research on
a constant basis. And so a lot of other people have picked up one.
Zero point energy. Yeah, sure, I think it exists. There's
pretty darn good evidence if you look at the scientific evidence of it harnessing it.
There is another whole thing. You know, how we harness that and
with today's technology is a good is a real big question. And I don't
think we're anywhere near having that harnessed yet. I think we know a lot
about it on the papers I've read. I'm really fascinated about how much we
do know. But putting it in the back of your forward and going into
space, and it's not not anywhere near that point yet. You know,
with how I put off in a scientist, you wor you made a statement
earlier that which is true. The media and all of these documentaries they talked
about there's no scientists working in these fields. There's no scientists paying attention to
you for us. But as you've experienced, you about your life, and
there are lots of scientists working on this. Why you think they say that?
Is it because they're not an academic you know, universities working on it?
Or why would they say that? And why doesn't that information get out?
Well you always hear that from people who want to debunk the UFO mystery.
You know, they say there are no scientists involved. If that's not
scientific, Well, what's not scientific is debunking? You know, if you're
willing to take a set of evidence and ignore all the points that don't fit
your what you think if the answer should be, then you can debunk it.
And that's what the debunkers do. They very seldom work with facts.
They work within uendos. They make statements like no scientists get involved, so
a lot of science said, well, I don't want to get involved in
no scientists get involved. So it's really a way of laying the hammer down
on people. But it's not true. A Mofon has three hundred scientists that
volunteer with Moffon that are involved in this and are interested in this. NIDS
had the Science Advisory Board, which will a dozen people or so. But
AFRIL, way back when AFRO was in existence, they had dozens and dozens
of scientists that were doing work. And back in those days, I can't
have scientists. And each of the small groups around the day has some scientific
expertise involved, so there are a lot of scientists. What the real truth
is, however, is that scientists generally don't get paid to work in this
field. If you would show me, say a billion dollars of research money
that could be dolled out by any agency for UFO research, Those same debunkers
would be the first people in line to get that money, because that's what
they like, is his money. He's not science for the sake of science,
and I think it's really sad. But on the other hand, if
there was that kind of money, who would be the person that aimed it
and guided it for want? Would it be still people that have a religious
bent that want to prove ufols or any religious therefore they would build the science
that direction. Are the people that are politically bent that say, well,
that would undermine all the people that have covered that up in our government,
and that would bring the government down. You just started hypothesizing all these situations,
and you'll find there was no simple answer. There's no simple answer anywhere
in this field, and it has become so muddied because of these negative things
that have been done over the years, which really are akin to dirty tricks.
Richard Dixon would have worked for will in this field. I mean dirty
tricks. It's fine, And that's the sort of people that are doing these
things today. I have very little respect for those people, so I just
avoid them. That reminds me of the Keyhole book. I just got done
reading one of them. I think it's aliens are real. And in his
book he goes over the history of the military involvement and some scientific involvement,
some real high level people that were involved in trying to get the information out.
He talks about organizations like the CIA would shut up the different services,
and that the CIA had some sort of involvement. Do you believe, like
in that Majestic twelve, like there is some sort of control group spending money
on this, they're just not giving the information to the public. Well,
if you sent a requestion to some agency with federal government, you will get
a form letter back that says that the federal government hasn't been involved in UFO
since Project Bluebook closed, and that was after the end of the Condon report
in nineteen sixty eight. That's, by the way, is when MUFFON came
into existence in nineteen sixty nine. Because these people said they are no place
to report. Savilians couldn't report anymore. Literally, there was no place to
go. They were just given idiot treatment. That didn't mean UFO siding stopped.
It just meant they didn't have any place doing so. MUFON came into
being. However, that doesn't really mean that much. Otherwise, What is
the baseline of this whole thing is that the government is still taking data.
If you look at documents that we have leally received the Freedom of Information Act
off of government websites, mainly before nine to eleven. Unfortunately, in two
thousand and one it showed tons and tons of documents that were distributed to most
government agencies on UFOs right up to when they close those front access to those
files after nine to eleven. That was a long waist in nineteen sixty eight,
and some of the agencies listed, for instance, where the CIA,
the NSSAY, the Secretary of State, the rooms in the White House they
call the operation centers, each of the major military branch heads chiefs of staff.
If there's nothing to this, why are those reports distributed to those people,
even though they're telling you they're not and they're not getting them, they
are are. So this is still very real today. It's just that they
use a civilian that aren't entitled to know it. With some of the rumors
that go around about what's going on, because of course, like you said,
they're gathering information, but why who what? Unfortunately is not available to
us. Some of the rumors out there. I just wanted to talk about.
One of the rumors is around a group called the Aviary, and lots
of move on heads are said to be part of this group, and people
don't understand what this is and they make these sometimes claims that they're involved with
these control groups of CIA and MJ twelve. Can you shed any light on
that group? Well, silly as it sounds, I was never able to
get into the av area. I asked people, how do you do this?
I want to rebel those with these guys, you know, because they're
interesting people. It really started with Bill more. Bill Moore had this what
do you call it, an invisible college of people from various organizations that were
well named people that were interested in UFOs, that worked together and they gave
each of them a bird name so they didn't use their real names, and
they communicated because as soon as you give a real name, somebody's going to
dump on you, that's the bottom line. And people involved in that were
neat people. How Proof was one of the AVIARYA kid Green Cia was one
of the avi Area. There are people like that that. There were nice
people. They did the hard work just because they worked for an organization didn't
make them bad. You know, quite often somebody says, well, you
know and move on. We know that you got this guy that was an
Air Force person. Well sure, we got people from every walk of life
and we welcome it. Just because they were in the Air Force, or
in the Army, or in the Navy, or worked for an agencies of
some kind doesn't mean they're bad people, and it probably means that they're smart
enough to know this is worth working on after they leave those jobs. So
I'm very open to anybody from any organization that wants to join. I'm all
for it. If they got guts enough to step out and do it,
I've got guts enough to accept them. That's what it comes down to.
I've never been burned by it. I think it's a good thing. Do
you just were if you were going in for a brain operation, would you
want to go to get you a couple of local doctors out of produn junction
and have them operated on your brain? And would you want to go to
the people who are really been working in brains. That's what I like to
the analogy. I'd like to look at here. You've got people that have
been in agencies that have taken the data air Force General or Air Force Kernel
or something that recorded watched the radar scopes and made the reports on the radar
cases. I really welcomed them to say something and step out. And I
find it ludicrous that people say, well, you can't trust them because they
used to be in the Air Force. God, those people keep us alive
and keep our enemies off our back. So yeah, they're trustworthy people.
If there's one or two that has an untoward goal, so be it.
And I think we've had some of those that have joined our organization from time
to time, but they eventually drop out because it doesn't worth their time to
pester us. There's another aspect of this too, when they close project with
Book and Condon's Edward Connon and the Condon report said there's nothing of science value
to be gained from the further study of UFOs. Well, that was a
lie. First off, he did not read the report. He just made
his answer up the way he was supposed to. There is something to be
gained from it, and it will continue to be something to be gained from
it. That's a political answer. Political answers I have no use for.
By the way. I've dealt with a lot of politicians in my life,
through the space program and through other things. Lots of them are really good
people, but a lot of them have to tour a party line that,
just like with UFO, is there's nothing there, therefore we can't talk about
it. Well. Sometimes some congressmen don't agree with that. I had a
meeting with the Congressman Tom Tancredo here in Colorado, and the reason we had
it was that was when stanroman next case came up, and Stanle had come
to our office and said, you know, I had this sighting, I
made videotape and I've been abducted. And this was a time when we were
going to release that information. And Tan Credo was in our district here where
our headquarters was. So I said, you want to be briefed on what
we're doing, and he said sure, And so I went over there and
sat with him for about an hour and his chief scientific aid, and I
said, you know, this is happening in your district. You should be
aware of it, you should be interested in it, and he said I
am. And it turned out that his aid had researched all of the weird
documents and knew implicitly who these people were that were in the government that said
that they had been involved in the UFOs in tan Creole had been briefed and
he asked questions showing that he understood this mystery. He understood it was a
problem, and then at the end he asked me one question that I wasn't
prepared for. He said, what can I do for you? And I
was flabbergast because I didn't expect him to even listen to me. And they
didn't give him a good answer, quite honestly, but the man was interested.
He didn't know about it, and it was obviously if he knew,
the other congressmen knew, but you know, he's enough of a rebel that
he was willing to tackle it. And I never heard anything more. And
then this last year I went up and Clifford Cliff, one of our board
members, arranged a meeting with Senator Allard, and again Allard was aware.
He's on the Space Committee, so he's aware space and space activities and that
sort of thing, and he offered the help that since then I think he
found out he couldn't because we haven't been able to get any help. But
during the meeting. He was aware of the situation, and he said he
was willing to help us. I told him, and I said, you
know, we are a database that is far excellent. We have investigators in
the field. We have people to see things, that know things. You
have what you call a new intelligence organization, which is based on the Patriot
Act. I said, but there are things that you're missing. I said,
in fact, the week before, just the week before I met with
him, I said, did you know right here in your district, in
your hometown, there was a UFO siding of a large triangular object flying at
less than five hundred feet over people's heads that were witnessed. And I said,
it's right down the street from where we're meeting here in northern Colorado.
He didn't know about that. I said, that's an example. I said,
your patriarch people should have known that was there. We knew it was
there, and we're willing to share that information. We make everything we get
public. So he was kind of I think he was kind of impressed with
that. He spent quite a bit of time with us, which is a
lot for a senator to do. So there are people in the government that
are good people that would do something if the politics were right for them to
do it, and I don't know how we get it into that position.
We're living in a very hostile world with a lot of dirty des going on,
and the protection from that kind of override science and freedoms, and there's
got to be a balance truck somewhere in one of these days, and we
have move understanding by it to jump in and that balance is struck. Actually,
you know when I joined, that's one of the things that lend credibility
to this whole thing, and including move On, is that there are a
lot of ex government people involved with move On more current they're still working in
government projects, or there's still a policeman, or there's still in the reserves.
We have a lot of Air Force, we have EXCIA. You know,
we had Darryl Simms was the first interview I've posted so far. He
worked for the CIA. There's a local You're going to speak at a group
next week, and the gentleman heading up that group is a great guy.
Rick Nelson was used to work for Intelligence. A lot of people, and
I think it's great because they have skills that I can learn from because I
don't come from these backgrounds, and I'm learning a lot from these people.
But the factor, just like you brought up at the end, is the
fear. I've found. There's so much fear in this field with people getting
involved. Everybody's fearful of everyone and everyone's background, whether they're military or where
they come from. But also I find a lot of deep seated fear in
these investigations i've done. Now that I've been able to get a few done,
a lot of these people, people including friends of mine, Where people
I know who see something, they may want to let me know that they
saw something. Holy cow, what is this? I didn't even believe you
that these things existed, but they're too afraid even to report to us.
Just a lot of fear. Well, it's hard to come up with an
answer for that, but I have a feeling about it. I think the
fear is based on years of cover up where people were made fun of along
the way, they were ridiculed. They give an honest report and an honest
answer, and then some dishonest debunker or official comes out with an answer that's
just ludicrous and makes them look stupid. People don't like to look stupid.
I don't care where you were who you are, where your male, female,
child, adult, older on. You don't like to look stupid,
and so you think somebody going to make you look that way, You're going
to head your bed. And that's the way it works every time. And
so that's a really good weapon that's used to that's doing good work, is
that they levered that on people, and people say, well, what's going
to happen. Well, I can tell you now that I have never been
threatened by anybody. I did have one run in once, but never as
a result of working this and working in the space buiness. You think I
would have gotten run over the steamroller. I didn't. In fact, when
I worked at the Johnson Space Center, I spoke to every major technical society
at the center, and I spoke to lots of brown bag lunches of workers
from the center. I never once spoke to the high level management office people.
They avoided it like the plague. But everybody at the lower level had
a high interest. They were good people, they believe it's real. A
lot of them had heard things, they'd seen things, they knew of cases
that were wild and that sort of thing. But again they didn't want it
told outside of their for fear of those higher level people that didn't want to
talk about it would do to them in their jobs. I don't know of
many cases where that happened, but the fear is there. And if you
have a fear, whether it's rational or not, it doesn't matter. And
I always dealt it with it this way. I dealt with it openly.
I dealt with it honestly. I said what I was going to do.
I did what I said I was going to do. I didn't try to
make trouble for other people. That wasn't my purpose. My purpose was gaining
technological information. And I still have that purpose today. And that's one reason
I treat people the way I do. I try to treat them nicely and
move on, because these are people that merit one extra steff of being treated
nicely because they overcame that fear and they joined and they decided to do something.
So to me, those are the heroes in this field. People are
really decided to step out and work, and I applaud them for it.
The people that set back and say, well, I who the government's going
to get me? If I talk about this. You know, when I
first I mentioned earlier, when I first started. I was working on the
Gemini program at McDonald Douglas in the nineteen sixties and my wife called me one
day and she said I had been on one of the local radio stations and
my wife called me and she said, there's a woman that called here today.
It's absolutely scared to death. But she had an incident happened just west
of Saint Louis, out on a farm, and in a nutshell. What
happened. Her and her son were coming home down the road in the daylight,
and they saw this object that was hovering over a farm next to them.
Her husband was had cancer and was dying at home, so they'd been
off to get his medicine. They watched this thing and while they were watching
it over this barn, and the barn caught fire, and so they ran
into the house, and a guy out the car ran in the house,
closed the shades and peeked out and watched and they went away. But she
was scared to death. It was going to come back and set their house
on fire. And my wife said, well, did she report it to
the police or anybody? Said no, I don't want the government coming out
here and hauling me up off you know, putting me in an institution or
something. And that struck me so hard. You know that here was this
poor woman suffering anyhow from all these other things, and she had this this
non rational fear the government was going to get her. She talked about that
thing being over somebody's barn. And that's another thing that stimulated me to speak
out and to openly give the information out and try to quell those unnatural feel
fears. I think we only have a responsibility of doing that. Sure,
UFO reports are bizarre. In some cases people have been harmed, but that
is a very small number. And as far as the government coming and get
you in a whole new way, that doesn't happen either, and at least
not very often, and in these days probably not at all. I think
after the Boo Book closed in the sixties that the government had sufficient instrumentation in
themselves to collect information on UFO sightings. They didn't need public reports anymore.
And I think that's the way it is today. If you look at this
country today in the United States, you will find it is interlaced with radar
systems from ground to orbit that can track anything that goes over the country and
when we have a large triangle sighting at almost any altitude, I am sure
somebody is tracking it. We're not getting that data in the UFO brews and
they we don't deserve to. I don't know. It'd be nice if we
did, but it's there, somebody's doing it, so they don't need eyewitness
reports anymore. That reminds me of Scott Ramsey. He was one of the
speakers at the last Movefrond symposium and doing research in the Aztec suppose at UFO
crash, and in his investigation he had found a wide radar network throughout the
country in the late forties and even in the forties with these things got instituted
and they were technologies which I still don't know that if they've been disclosed,
he said. In one case they said VI radar were able to help UH
killed seventeen Japanese U boats and one day so but these still as technology he
was able to demonstrate and find through classified documents was throughout the country. He
also found that private organizations Texas Instruments and other companies had a large stake in
these Do you think that these private organizations are very involved and have a lot
I guess working in this fields largely as well. Well. Every organization of
the government has a limited staff. I mean, if you are NASA at
any given center, you have a limited staff, and the way you get
the work done is that you give contracts to private organizations to do the work.
That's how I worked at the Johnson Space Center. I was under contract
through McDonald douglas at the Johnson Space Center and we did all the control working,
that sort of thing that supplemented this small, massive workforce. And that's
the case with security organizations as well. I mean Lost Animals doesn't have their
own government police unit. They have a contractor that does it. They have
a contractor that runs Lost Animals, for instance, University of California. These
are private organizations that are not bound by a lot of the rules that government
organizations. A Freedom Information Act, for instance, doesn't apply to these private
organizations. Doesn't apply to anybody anymore hardly. I mean, it's been kind
of negated. But nevertheless, if you want something to be kept really really
secrets, you put it in a private organization. And these people are good
at that. I worked in some of those kind of programs and I can
tell you if it's a secret. You don't tell it, and most people
don't know. There are programs that have come and gone and nobody even knows
they existed, and mainly because they were done by private organizations. To move
on, you refer to the trends, how that the phenomena seems to be
changing over time. Do you recognize a current trend? Well, the current
trend I'm recognizing is that that is the lack of some of the mundane type
things that were taking place before. It's like it's not necessary anymore. But
the biggest trend is is to the addition of the big triangles to the mix
of types of UFO scene. It doesn't mean we don't have lots of disk
sightings and lots of their sphirical sightings, but we are seeing a real growth
in triangular sidings and I'm doing research on that. Intend to put a catalog
of that together one of these days. And I've got hundreds and hundreds and
hundreds of triangular sightings and they do not fit the characteristics of aircraft that we
have. Some people said, well, the government has locket or somebody building
these huge balloons, and that's what they are. A huge balloon. That's
why they can fly slowly and hover around in the sky. If that were
true, how do they take off at light speed? You won't ever see
a balloon take off like a rocket. It doesn't answer it. And besides,
we actually did the research and found that they didn't build these huge balloons
that some of the people that talk about, like the Areon for instance,
Locke is looking at a prototype right now when it can stay up for days
at high altitude. It's really big, but it's not proliferating the area,
and it's not flying at five hundred feet above the ground around the areas.
Means did one investigation. They took three databases, their own database, the
Lery hash database and the Moofon database and ask us for triangular reports feedback.
And when they did, they were able to plot them within like fifteen one
hundred miles of some major Air Force bass and that would leads you to believe
they were something flying from the major Air force baces. However, when you
look at the course, they weren't at the bases. They were at low
altitude miles out from the bases. And if you look at the way aircraft
take off, they have a rapid acceleration to get up to a certain altitude,
and then they fly higher and higher depending on what kind of aircraft they
are, to conserve fuel and to go long distances and to go fast and
all that sort of thing. They don't stay at five hundred feet below across
the country hour after hour, day after day. And so when NIS put
that report out with that hypothesis in it, everybody jump on said, there's
the answer. It's the air Force doing it. That wasn't NIDS what they
had in mind. They thought somebody would come back and say that doesn't fit
the data. Nobody has said that. They just accepted it. The media
accepted it, agencies accepted it, and it became kind of a law and
doctor Killer said, you know, that wasn't the intent at all. We
threw it out there because this is what the data showed, but it didn't
give the answer. And so nobody refuted the hypothesis. To this day is
Phil Stanles because nobody reputed it. All right. That was the interview with
John Schusher. There's a little bit more, but really we got into talking
about the symposium from a few years ago, so we left that part out.
But if for some reason you want to hear that, you can go
to ufothinktink dot com, but you can get an idea of what a wealth
of knowledge that John Chusler is. And what's funny is this was before I
started doing pr for mufon, and you know when I started, Oh,
moufonsinten nuts and bolts, they don't believe in abduction and blah blah blah,
this and that. But you can hear from this interview from a founding member,
from someone who was the director for a period of time where people were
saying this, he's obviously very very open minded, and the board is like
that. That's why I like to get on members of the board. I've
had several of the members of the move On board on so people could get
to know these guys and see what they're like, because otherwise it's very mysterious.
You know, who are these people? And hopefully one day I could
get Bob big Low on because that would be great so people can realize that
these are people who are genuinely interested in finding out information. Of course,
everyone has a different way of going about it, and everyone has different opinions
on the best way to do the investigation and how to get the information.
And sometimes people feel that, you know, people are hoarding information, or
they're they're not being as open as a sure or this or that. But
everybody, really their intent is to find the information, and especially with move
On, as you can hear with this, to share the information and with
move On their volunteer organization. So and what's wonderful is you know, you
don't have to agree with everybody to be a part of move On. And
most areas, you know, most states have local meetings, so it's a
place where you can go meet like minded people and get information and see some
of the great speakers or talk to some of the people who have done some
great research, and you'll be surprised on the varying opinions that people hold.
Speaking of someone who has varying opinions is doctor John Alexander. He was an
Army colonel and leading advocate for the development of non lethal weapons. He also
investigated UFOs and paranormal phenomena and he's going to be on the show next week
to talk about how disclosures happen. And the government doesn't know as much about
UFOs as we think. According to mister Alexander, let's hear what he has
to say. So thanks for listening to Open Minds Radio. Don't forget to
visit openminds dot tv for more UFO news. Talk to you next week, people,