WEBVTT

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And welcome to the final installment of
TLF tackles Who Killed w c W,

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the four part miniseries on the death
of World Championship Wrestling, as concluded on

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Vice TV. I'm here with the
Boss, and we're also here with friend

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of the Show, Evan Husney of
course from Dark Side of the Ring,

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Tails from the Territories, and now
Who Killed w c W. Evan,

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Uh, it's over you popping champagne
or you're going home exhausted like Eric after

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the deal died. I'm going fly
fishing, motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah,

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that's where I'm at. Yeah,
right up the road from where I am

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right now, that's where I'll be. Uh No, I'm excited man,

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that it's uh, it's it's it's
been a crazy turnaround. I've I think

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I mentioned it to you guys at
one point. It's we started filming this

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at the end of November and here
we are, Wow, you know,

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like at the end of June and
four episodes have concluded on the air.

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It's quick turnaround. So this has
all just been a blur. But I'm

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glad. It's it's all. It's
pretty much behind us. Now I can

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rest and onto the next but yeah, man, very very happy to be

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here. Thanks for having me back. Oh absolutely so episode four, JP,

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we finally took our measure of Brad
Siegel and Stusnyder and the conspiracy theories

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around whether that purchase was facilitated in
a way that might leave WW is the

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only logical buyer. I want to
start with you, JP, what did

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you think of Siegel and Snyder's representations
on this very important front. Well,

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first of all, before I get
into that, I do want I want

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to play something here because this is
the thing, and I'll tell you what

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this really I think will we'll jive
with with those who listen. I'm subscribed

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to cinemat Okay, just here because
this was from the episode. I went

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to a guy by name of Peter
Guber. Peter at that point in time

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owned a company called Mandalay Sports and
Entertainment. He's a very very very well

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established Hollywood guy. He said,
look, I'm not interested in investing in

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buying WCW, but I think I
know some people have made Do you remember

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Peter Guber? Yeah, of course
I do. In fact, I recognized

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his name as someone that eric name
drops. As soon as you said it,

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I literally so I remember, I
was I was actually looking at something

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else right before that clip played,
and the moment I heard Peter Guber,

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it was like boom, Like I
was like what. And I was like,

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I don't know if that's I mean, I assume it's probably common knowledge,

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but I didn't know that. And
I'm just like thinking about all the

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shit that that we've talked about with
him and and and John Peters and how

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they fucking you know, almost killed
Sony pictures and stuff in Colombia. It

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was just almost like, you want
to give it to this guy, all

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right, Hey, no one.
I don't know. It was a few

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years after after he left Sony,
so I don't know. But like the

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uh, I mean, Brad Siegel's
just an enjoyable individual to watch Nick into

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his eyes? Boss, What do
you see behind the turtleneck in the horn

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rims? All right? Here,
this is what I see. This is

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what I hear. Jamie Kellner was
one of the best television executives in the

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business. But Jamie hated wrestling.
He hated it, you know, he

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hated it, didn't get it,
didn't want anything to do with it.

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It was a pain in the ass. And we were losing so much money

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all the time that I think I
made the suggestion to selww I don't know

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if he came from me or somebody
suggested, and I latched onto it,

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and Jamie was like, Yep,
get rid of this as fast as you

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can. I don't want anything to
do with it. There is now I

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don't know to me seeing that,
hearing that there is just just like this,

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there's glee underneath him saying man to
me, I sensed glee as he's

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like saying man like, it wasn't
my wasn't my idea? I don't know

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if it was my idea exactly,
shit, Brad. If you don't know

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if it was your idea, I
don't know who else to ask. But

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now he's he'd be played it very
very straight, very smooth. But he

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had his little wiggle words in there, which I think Evan gives us plenty

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to chew one. What did you
think? Because you know it's funny.

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We talked a lot before you guys
launched the episode about how to structure it,

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and I was in on a couple
of sessions about strategizing the approach,

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and this was thing where it's like
you got to go there. But how

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much do you go there? You
were wrestling with that and I think episode

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four you guys went in with both
feet. How did that evolve? Yeah?

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Well, I mean it was something
just the whole idea of this,

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you know, uh, Cloak and
Dagger conspiracy to you know, devalue the

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company, so wwe could buy it
at a discount, you know, that

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type of thing. That was something
I had not heard until I had read

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Guy Evans book. Uh, that
was something that was new to me.

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So and that was pretty interesting stuff. You know, obviously would be very

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dramatic for the series if we could
get into it, and of course we

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wanted to make all attempts to get
anybody on the record we could for this.

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I mean, we have to also
acknowledge, you know, we're sort

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of burying the lead here, guys. You know, Jamie Kellner passed away.

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I was just a few days ago
as we're talking right now, which

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is just the timing on that is
wild because he was somebody early on in

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the development of the series when we
were like, Okay, who we want

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to talk to for the series,
and you know, we were so much

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more interested in getting the turner guys. You know, the turner broadcasting voices

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more so than the wrestlers, Like
that's who we're marking out for. Like,

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you know, we were like,
we got Dick Cheata, you know

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that. Yeah, you know,
it was like Kevin Nash whatever, but

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Dick Chatter. These are guys we
haven't heard before on camera on the whole

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poet exactly. So that's where our
priority was for this entire show. And

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Jamie Kellner was somebody we really wanted
to get on board for the series,

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and he was impossible to find,
Like there was no contact information out there

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on the internet. We tried to
contact, you know, representation of his

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no response. I think it led
to us actually sending like a FedEx letter

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to some address or something and we
got a call back and he just had

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no interest. And it sounded more
like just the hassle of the interview more

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than having interest and speaking about it. But the sense that we got was

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like that Jamie was like, Oh, I can't believe I'm still talking about

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this so many years later. You
know, That's what happens to anybody that

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touches wrestling, by the way,
on a corporate side, like you can

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try to put it in the corner, but it will define you because the

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fans care so much more about it
than any the fans of anything else you've

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ever worked on. That's like,
yeah, I feel like that's really especially

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when it comes to something that was
so tragic to the wrestling fans as the

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sale of w CW, Like when
it you know, this guy, this

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guy had no idea, you know, he had no idea what he was

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doing in terms of of of of
who, of what sleeping giant he was

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going to wake you know, the
rest they don't. They don't forget,

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they don't forget, and they're and
you're always you know, the crosshairs are

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always on you, and especially if
you're it's going to be so awkward for

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for guys who were on this corporate
level to like have this like what like

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seriously, like this is well twenty
plus years ago. Yeah, and like

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you know, you're just not going
to be someone who's going to chase you

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down twenty five years later and be
like, oh, tell me about you

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know, movies for guys who like
movies you know or something you know or

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whatever. No, because it's like, as fans, we project so much

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of our own passion onto these stories
yes, that we think that all of

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these players are care even you know, which they don't even care one percent

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of how much we care. And
they didn't take inventory of even you know,

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you know, like making memories around
these decisions, you know, and

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so it's just, uh, it's
just an interesting phenomenon that when you see

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kind of fans dissect this story after
so many years and and and these players

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who don't have any stake or any
interest in and if this stuff you know,

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lives or dies, you know,
is that's kind of the cold hard

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truth of it all. You know. It's just uh, that's why I

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think it's like, as we're segueing
now into the conspiracy theory, it's again

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that's a huge part of this sort
of to me, this Brad Siegel Stucks

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Snyder thing is like, you know, they would have to well, at

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least, you know, Brad Siegel
would have to care enough, you know,

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in order to pull something like this
out, you know, off which

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if you really look at the things
that Brad Siegel was overseeing at that time,

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uh, you know, wrestling is
just one of many things that he

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was overseeing, and I just don't
think he would have given it that sort

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of time of day, you know, in order to try and I think

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honestly, at that time, you're
moving at the speed of light and you

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know, no matter if it sinks
or you know, swims. Okay,

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great, what else we got,
you know type thing? So how did

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it work in terms of chronology?
Did you get Brad first and that helped

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get Stew or did both say yes
in a vacuum? Was it the other

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way around? God, I'm trying
to remember if you remember, yeah,

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I mean exactly, no, I
think it's I think it was around the

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same time. I know that,
Like, we wanted to address right the

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conspiracy theory in the show because it
is fascinating, and especially because there was

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record of it at the time.
You know, Bob Ryder, who did

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the WCW dot com live show,
had made reference to it, you know,

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on the WCW website, So it
was something that people were talking about

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at the time. So we wanted
to definitely address it. And I think

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it was just we you know,
Brad Stiegl was an obvious choice to to

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be a voice in the show,
and I think we reached out to Stew

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with the intention of, you know, seeing what he had to say.

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On this and I think we got
we got through to him and he was

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more than happy to sit down for
an interview. He was very keen to

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do it. He was very keen
to set the record straight on the story.

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I know, that's maybe I would
probably say that's one of the main

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reasons why he participated. So this
this isn't something where you sit down and

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he's surprised to get this line of
questioning. He came in almost with with

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that as top of mind. Wow. Definitely, definitely, yeah, because

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we because we had asked him about
it. You know, we we do

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we do pre interviews. We talked
to people on the phone, you know,

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to kind of hear what they have
to say. When we do this

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on you know, dark Side as
well, you know, just hearing what

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you know, just kind of asking
a bunch of questions and sort of you

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know, hearing stories from people so
we can kind of pre plan what we're

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going to talk about on the day
of the interview. And yeah, he

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was very keen to sort of you
know, talk about and so that was

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like, great, so this is
this is going to be awesome and yeah,

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and so that's what that's what that's
what happened. It's great. Well,

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it's so clutched that you got both
of them, because it would have

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been very hard to throw shade at
one or the other, you know,

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if the other wasn't there. Uh, you run into that problem enough.

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With W. C. W.
Kellner as an example. You know,

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he'll never sit for anything, but
everyone so everyone points at him, and

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you have to wonder, does everyone
point at him because they know he's not

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going to say anything? Same thing
with Hulk Cogan. You know everybody knows

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Hulk's not going to sit, so
a lot of people point to Hulk,

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right right, it's who's point what
with a single finger to the chest.

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I didn't dude, I didn't do
anything. Bro. I was gone,

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Brother, I was gone way after
this, way before this, dude.

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Yeah, well, clearly the contract
wasn't though they were still sending you letters

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telling you to show up for greed. And if you don't want to show

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up, why did you cash three
million dollars worth of checks in the end

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of two thousand that we sent to
you for paper we're talking about, I

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mean we're talking you know that was
contractual obligation. Dude. That's orvery clear.

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Evan did you sit with Kevin for
this Kevin Nash, Yes, okay,

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So what was take us through handing
him the iPad with Brad Siegel?

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Because he turns that around and says, this is what killed w c W.

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Let me just say you know that
that that's probably the most safe for

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television version of Oh boy, what
you see. He was very upset because

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because we did play him some other
stuff that that Brad had said. Uh,

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we didn't really use it in the
show, but we use it in

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the opening of the show when he
calls wrestler's pathological liars. If you remember

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that, Oh yeah, everyone,
everyone let latch right that. Yeah,

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yeah, I mean yeah, and
so I like, like, you know,

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Kevin took a lot of that very
personally and and and just yeah,

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he was not happy at all,
uh and in reacting to Brad's stuff.

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But yeah, that was a moment
for sure. Did and did you play

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him? Was it sort of like
a highlight reel like I'm treating playing the

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whole interview with Bratt? I don't
know how long it was, but no,

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trying to get an idea of like
what really would have set him off?

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Do you think it was the pathological
liars thing of all the things you

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showed him. That and the actual
clip that you see, you know,

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right, which takes no responsibility.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and

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and a couple of other things.
I think he'd mentioned something about how,

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you know, the talent was the
most to blame. I'm paraphrasing. I

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don't remember it exactly the quote,
but yeah, yeah, Kevin was was

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you know, Yeah, he was
not happy about that. Oh that's really

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yeah. What's the I don't know, JP, did you recognize the b

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roll as they started talking about conspiracies? What movie is that in black and

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00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:48.279
white? Actually I didn't know what
movie that was? What what? What?

205
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What film clips did you guys use
for that? That's a good point.

206
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It's a good question. Oh man, I can't remember off the top

207
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of my head. But you know, there's a ton of this type conspiracy

208
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theory into like a b roll database
or something. No, well, there's

209
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there's just a ton of like those
classic film noirs that that are in the

210
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public domain, Like there's DOA.
I think d A is one of them,

211
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which is a great film. If
you've never seen it, it's great.

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Well, now it qualifies for under
the cinemat because it was on a

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wrestling related show, so that's great. Yeah, DOA is really cool and

214
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.000
so yeah, so what it was. I think it was kind of an

215
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Errol Morris influence again of just like
we had no idea how we were going

216
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to bring coverage to that part of
the story, right because we're not doing

217
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reenactments. I mean, this is
the show has It does have some I

218
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don't know if you've noticed, but
the big bang poster and sitting on the

219
00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.120
desk. Yeah, I was going
to ask you about that. That's about

220
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the only recree sort of element.
I was like, did they really find

221
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b roll of someone who said cell
w CW on a yellow legal pad on

222
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their desk? No, that that
was my That was me and we Yeah

223
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it was. It was so much
fun. We had so much fun.

224
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We had like this this broadcast camera
from the nineties. Uh that that that

225
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we got a hold of, just
big chunky camera and we brought it into

226
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a small studio and we shot all
those little those little stuff like because you

227
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know, because we do use stock
footage in the show, you know,

228
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we wanted to lean into stock footage
and like public domain film noir clips like

229
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that you see. But we also
wanted to kind of create our own stock

230
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footage. That was the that was
the sort of you know, creative,

231
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you know, approach to it.
So we so so that cell W CW

232
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thing, and like all the N
sixty four stuff you see or anytime someone's

233
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changing the channels or there's shots of
the WWF magazines, like, all that

234
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stuff was shot with just like this
chunky nineties camera and it was so much

235
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fun. So it's not a filter. And and and maybe the coolest thing

236
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:46.840
we did is for all the AOL
stuff with the with the fan message board

237
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typing stuff, right, we actually
got an iMac you know from the era

238
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and uh, you know the big
chunky you know color colors blue or orange,

239
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orange. Yeah, we got one
of those things. And I couldn't

240
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believe. It's like, okay,
this works, it's working, but we

241
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need to get a video file of
the AOL startup logo screen onto it.

242
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So we actually called a friend who
rendered a video in dyvics for us,

243
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and we were able to load it
onto that iMac and actually shoot it practically.

244
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So that was a lot of fun. That was just so much fun.

245
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All that kind of stuff was just
oh, that was the best that's

246
00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:33.600
amazing. He's a lapsed fan wrestling
podcast with Jack N. Carno m Jpsoro,

247
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a lapsed fan wrestling podcast. Yeah, it was. It was a

248
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.159
very good idea to include the N
sixty four. I mean we've talked about

249
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this at nauseum over the years on
the show JP. I mean, that's

250
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what made WCW the hot thing of
ninety seven and ninety six. If you

251
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want to count WW versus the world. It wasn't just the angle at the

252
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nWo angle and Hogan turning heel.
That was, you know, probably seventy

253
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eighty percent of it. It was
also that you could follow on and play

254
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the best wrestling game that had ever
come out with all these wrestlers yep and

255
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so many, and also just the
incredible gameplay, you know, just like

256
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you know, gameplay that revolutionized the
whole the whole wrestling video game. For

257
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Yeah. That is that is that
you evan having pizza with your friends over?

258
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Is that like your personal memory there
a little bit? Yeah, for

259
00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.759
sure. I I definitely had sleepovers
with friends, uh playing that game,

260
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and we would stick a tape into
like into my VCR and record our N

261
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.039
sixty four. You know, matches
on Revenge and make our own little pay

262
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per views, and and we were
able to like somehow get audio into it

263
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to have like commentary too, so
we so those exist somewhere, who knows

264
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where, But yeah, that was
a huge part of my childhood. I

265
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actually my my lapsed fan and sort
of journey, you know. I was

266
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a you know, a fan in
the late eighties, early nineties hul Comania,

267
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yep, and then I got back
into wrestling because of the first N

268
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sixty four WCW game, the World
Tour WCWNW, Yeah, the World Tour.

269
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So it's a huge part of everything. So I knew it had to

270
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be a huge part of the show, and we took it a little far.

271
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I mean there's some cheeky moments in
there for sure, like right before

272
00:18:25.640 --> 00:18:29.799
Eric Bischoff gets fired, you see
Brett Hart put the sharp shooter on him

273
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in the game, you know,
so we had fun with it. But

274
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I think that's the tone of the
show, and that's that's what was so

275
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cool about this whole project was just
that we got to have like fun,

276
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you know, and we got to
like just you know, have a different

277
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tone and you know, lean into
more humor and just play with a lot

278
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of different tools, and it was
it was a lot of fun interesting,

279
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.279
you know, the way it kind
of ended up shaking out. Episode one

280
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:53.079
is like who is Eric? How
did Eric come to power? Episode two,

281
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.599
Eric rides the wave and then crashes
and gets fired and looks out on

282
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the wilderness in Wyoming and the begin
Vince Russo in episode three comes in,

283
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.960
crashes and he's walking around his neighborhood
in Colorado. At the end, I

284
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presume, and you know, there's
been people saying, you know, you

285
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:15.720
will lean too much into Bishoff,
you lean too much into Russo in terms

286
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:18.119
of, like, you know,
kind of softballing their role in the demise.

287
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.079
They sat for the interview. Their
absolute musts for the series. They

288
00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.960
were that, you know, how
have you felt about the feedback in terms

289
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:30.200
of how much emphasis you've placed on
Eric and Russo in terms of, like,

290
00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:36.759
you know, a cult of personality
sort of approached each episode. Yeah,

291
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.680
I mean, well, to me, it's in making anything like this

292
00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.079
a four part series, a doc
series, especially trying to make something that

293
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.599
you know has a broad appeal to
non wrestling fans, you know, something

294
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that like I always say, like
I want our shows to be something my

295
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:56.759
aunt can watch and of course privoted
as I would. You know, you

296
00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.599
have to have a main character,
and you have to have you have to

297
00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:03.319
and Eric is the main character.
Like, yes, there's all this history

298
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.599
of pre Eric and everything, but
really, you know what's interesting about this

299
00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:14.079
story, and especially to someone who's
not a fan, is is the rise

300
00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.079
and fall of WCW. You know, in its prime, you have have

301
00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:22.559
taking something that's a distant second,
a very lower tier product, and then

302
00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:27.920
somehow catching this lightning bolt and it
becoming this phenomenal cultural phenomenon I think is

303
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:33.759
accurate to describe, and then seeing
it burn out, you know, super

304
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.119
fast, you know. So for
me, it's like Eric is that character

305
00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:42.920
that brings us through all of this, you know, And I don't know,

306
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.960
I don't see it that way.
I think that's a little bit of

307
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:51.720
a jaded fan or someone who's very
close to the material looking at it,

308
00:20:51.720 --> 00:20:55.920
because I do think that he does. You know, Eric has his version

309
00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:57.960
of the story, of course,
but I do think we see him take

310
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.039
a lot of responsibility and in his
own way for things, you know,

311
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.480
when he when you know, when
he talks about the chronic bad finish,

312
00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:11.359
syndrome. He's talking about, you
know, being a green lighting and okaying

313
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:17.480
the David Arquette title change and actually
being a physical player in the match and

314
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:21.920
things like that. But I think
one thing we wanted to show with this

315
00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.119
series that I think is underappreciated is
this idea of and I can relate to

316
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:33.039
this a lot, is uh just
you know, managing the wrestling side of

317
00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:37.279
the business is one thing. The
talent booking, making the right creative decisions,

318
00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.440
you know, and all that stuff
is one thing. But also just

319
00:21:41.720 --> 00:21:45.319
the what you're up against in terms
of the corporate environment that this company has

320
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:49.119
to exist in, which is kind
of weird, like that you get this

321
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:53.440
weird, colorful, wild, exotic
world of wrestling that's like you know,

322
00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:59.799
you know, that's like bumping elbows
with this very corporate, you know,

323
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.480
stock driven, money driven, you
know, corporate, giant, broadcasting conglomerate.

324
00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:10.599
Right. So, and like I
said, I can relate to it

325
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.440
because there's so much that happens in
that environment where random people get hired,

326
00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:19.559
random people get fired, Decisions are
made arbitrarily and you have no control over

327
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:25.759
them, and there's no it doesn't
make any logical sense, you know,

328
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:29.839
in terms of somebody comes in,
they're a marketing executive and they have an

329
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:32.720
idea and they want to put their
stamp on something, and it's a political

330
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:38.119
sort of you know environment, And
we've definitely experienced that just on a smaller

331
00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.960
scale with our shows and dealing with
you know, network types and the like.

332
00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.680
So we wanted to sort of show
that experience and the fact that too,

333
00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:51.000
like just to put it into perspective, aw has been around now for

334
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.599
five years, right, five years? I mean, you know in this

335
00:22:53.759 --> 00:23:00.440
WCW show, we're really talking about
two and a half years ish, you

336
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.880
know, Yeah, of time,
and just think that's just a short amount

337
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:07.240
of time for all of this to
transpire. You're moving at the speed of

338
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.240
light, and so many decisions you
have to make on a daily basis,

339
00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.039
and they're not all winners. And
I'm sure in hindsight twenty twenty you would

340
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.519
have done a million things differently.
And I feel the same way I would

341
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:19.960
too if I could. And some
of the things that we've done, or

342
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.319
when we don't get things right or
when there's problems, So you left with

343
00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:27.880
anything after four episodes here, might
as well talk the question in here where

344
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.599
it was like, man, we
should have explored that more we had good

345
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:34.200
tape on this element of the WCW
collapse story or not. I mean,

346
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:37.079
you know, don't force anything but
anything stick with you. No, I

347
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:41.240
mean, I don't think there's anything
that we got on tape that we didn't

348
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:44.680
get or that we didn't put in
the show. I mean, you guys

349
00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:47.359
tell me maybe we'll do a podcast
about it as somebody, Oh, look

350
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:52.559
at that. That worked just as
I expected. Jaw that everyone just saw

351
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.440
how the sausage is made. Continue. But this is what I will say,

352
00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:02.079
and this goes back to how this
whole project came together, is it

353
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:08.400
was this whole the idea to do
this was born out of speaking of podcasts,

354
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.559
was this idea of like a company
wanting to develop a podcast series with

355
00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:17.839
us, Oh I to do like
a Dark Side of the Ring spin off

356
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.799
on a podcast, but they would
be more like radio documentaries, right likes

357
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:25.359
what's a story that's too big for
your show that we would do over the

358
00:24:25.400 --> 00:24:29.160
course of like ten episodes. And
we've always been we've always been hearing from

359
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:30.720
fans like, oh, we want
you guys to do the death of WCW.

360
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:33.720
And it's always been too big of
a story for Dark Side, even

361
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.519
two episodes or whatever. So we
started to develop it as a podcast,

362
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:44.200
and then you know, seven Bucks
wanted to team wanted to team up with

363
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:47.119
us again, and Vice wanted to
work with all of us, and so

364
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.440
we were trying to come up with
the new ideas. We had a bunch

365
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:51.400
of different ideas on the table,
and one was like, hey, what

366
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:55.519
if we just did the WCW story
as a mini series? But then I

367
00:24:55.599 --> 00:25:00.039
was thinking about it as a longer
project than four episodes, and I I

368
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.480
wish I could go back to answer
your question and maybe try and push a

369
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:10.880
little harder for more episodes, I
think, because and this is boring.

370
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.519
I hope it's not too boring,
but is like, you know, when

371
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:17.319
you have like ten episodes the Dark
Side of the Ring, and you have

372
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:19.839
a budget and you create a budget
for him, you can spread out all

373
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:25.440
these costs over ten episodes, right, You're you're more efficient with your money,

374
00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:29.359
and it's and you can get a
lot done. Four episodes really constricts

375
00:25:29.400 --> 00:25:33.799
everything because all the four episodes are
carrying the cost of the whole show,

376
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.279
and it is so it only allowed
us to interview I think, I think

377
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.599
it's eighteen people. It's how many
people are in the show, and that

378
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.319
proved to be not enough. I
think, I mean, and that's one

379
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:45.599
thing always goes through my mind,
people like why didn't they talk to X

380
00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.240
Y Z. Usually the person didn't
want to do it, like in Jamie

381
00:25:48.279 --> 00:25:52.519
Kellner's case or Haul Cogan's case.
But also you just you don't have unlimited

382
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:56.480
resources. You have to you have
to pick the interview subjects that are going

383
00:25:56.559 --> 00:25:57.920
to be the best bang for your
buck, right, people who aren't just

384
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:00.759
going to speak to a little corner
of the story. Which is why I

385
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:04.519
was. I was happy to see
you got stew Snyder because he really functions

386
00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:07.000
as just that piece. You don't
even see him into the last episode.

387
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:10.519
But that was that was worth it, that was worth leaning into, even

388
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:12.240
if it was just a one beat
sort of guy. Yeah, yeah,

389
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:15.079
you don't. You can only have
so many of those. So the whole

390
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:17.519
thing is a puzzle. It's a
whole it's a puzzle. In the beginning,

391
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:19.559
you got like, whatever it is, eighteen shooting days, how are

392
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.799
you going to make it work?
You know, and you got to make

393
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.079
sure all the schedules line up.
Sometimes it's a schedule reason. Someone's not

394
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:27.759
in the show and we have to
shoot it in this time period or else

395
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.839
it's not going to make it in
because the whole thing is a conveyor belt

396
00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:34.200
of production, you know. So
but that being said, if I could

397
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.680
go back in time, maybe you
would have pushed for six episodes, and

398
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.559
I think we probably could have you
know, expanded it a little more.

399
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:47.359
But again, we were we were
just moving so fast trying to make this.

400
00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:49.599
But I'm very happy with it.
I'm very happy with how it came

401
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.759
out. I think it's very fun, it's very entertaining, and again,

402
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:57.680
like maybe to the to all the
WCW scholars, it's not I think the

403
00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:00.680
episode four is going to deliver on, you know, stuff that they may

404
00:27:00.680 --> 00:27:04.680
not have heard before. But I
think it may not be the super satisfying

405
00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:10.480
to the ultra WCW scholar. But
I think to anybody who's got a casual

406
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:12.359
interest in any of this, I
think they're going to find it fun.

407
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:17.559
And someone who does zero knowledge of
this I think is definitely going to be

408
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.960
you know, entertained and intrigued by
it. So that was the idea.

409
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.200
JP. It tricks me. That's
kind of the bitch about WCW. We've

410
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:26.720
covered it at length over the years. We did the Starcade memorial tour,

411
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.599
all the Starcades in order. It's
just short enough that the existence of the

412
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.119
company in particular, like Evan was
saying, the Boom years, is just

413
00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.559
short enough to trick yourself into thinking
that you can cover it all because it's

414
00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.240
just three years. But those three
years, as we've discovered, I mean,

415
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.480
how many more times, JP do
we have to go eight hours on

416
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.559
a show that we thought was inconsequential. But it's so it's so true.

417
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.799
I mean, these you find out
more and more, especially with WCW,

418
00:27:52.920 --> 00:28:00.880
more than anything else you see.
You see literally how each each show or

419
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.599
each moment each day, YEP is
like a cog in the wheel of that

420
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:11.920
kind of destruction. Each rating,
each rating you know has Yeah, it's

421
00:28:11.960 --> 00:28:15.200
like consequence. It feels like it
does. It really does. Now.

422
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.400
I got to ask Evan a question, though, Were you there? Did

423
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:21.240
you go to did you interview Bischoff? Were you there for that? Yes?

424
00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:23.839
I was there for We did three
days in total. I was there

425
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:27.880
for the first two. I was
not there for the third one. It

426
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.839
was at his house. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, I need I needed

427
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:37.400
an exact description of what his house
looks like. I had actually been there,

428
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.720
I think twice before, because we've
had him on the show Dark Side.

429
00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:45.680
Yeah, and I mean it's amazing. You know, what can I

430
00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.480
say? It's uh, it's in
this unbelievably picturesque part of you know,

431
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:53.039
Cody Wyoming, all of the all
of the backgrounds you see in the show

432
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.880
or that's it, and it's gorgeous. You know. He has this turn

433
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:03.119
of the century western bar, you
know, maybe it's even earlier. It's

434
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:06.759
like, you know, eighteen hundreds, maybe mid to late eighteen hundreds,

435
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:08.799
like an old saloon bar that you
see in the background of the shot.

436
00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:12.400
And then as his his whole house
was built around that. You know,

437
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:17.880
he built his entire house around that. And it's super cool. And you

438
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:21.839
know there isn't hardly any wrestling shit
anywhere, of course, of course,

439
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.359
of course. And yeah, he
seems to be, you know, living

440
00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:26.720
a great life. You know,
he's got an awesome dog, his wife's

441
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.720
great and you know it's beautiful there. So did he go did you go

442
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.279
hunting with him at all? No? Did not do that, didn't have

443
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:42.759
did he serve you freshly hunted game
meet at all like the carnivore. No

444
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:48.119
no, no, no, all
right, all right, well yeah,

445
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.400
we have this this like fantasy like
idea, this like fantastical idea of like

446
00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:57.079
what is his his? Like Western
life is like eighty day life. And

447
00:29:57.119 --> 00:30:00.000
it's there. Man, you guys
get it. You get him. Look

448
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:07.319
out into the sunset. He's a
lapsed fan wrestling podcast with Jack and MJP

449
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:19.400
soo. He's a lapsed fan wrestling
podcast. I'm want to ask you Evan

450
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:25.880
about the nitro footage. Oh yeah, this is super cool. We were

451
00:30:25.880 --> 00:30:27.160
gonna ask Guy Evans about this.
We're not out of time, but I

452
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:32.960
figured you could probably enter it for
us. You identify the w CW cameraman

453
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.359
that had this this footage, but
you know, take us through because as

454
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:40.039
you know about us, we are
we are completely obsessed with found footage like

455
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:44.559
this. So tell me everything.
It makes episode four really great, I

456
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.359
think, yeah, I mean okay, So when we did the I wasn't

457
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:53.799
there for this, but when when
we had filmed the interview with Neil Pruitt,

458
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:59.519
we had heard one of he Neil
had mentioned to our producer Howard,

459
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.839
who's been the Dark sid Unheard podcast. He told Howard that there was a

460
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.720
guy out there, Scott Lansing,
who had all of this never before seen

461
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:12.039
footage. We didn't know how much, how long, or what it was,

462
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:17.319
but it was just kind of this
idea that he has footage that's been

463
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.000
shot, you know, backstage at
during the Last Nitro in Panama City.

464
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:23.839
And so I was like, guys, we got to get on this asap.

465
00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:27.960
And it took a while for us
to make the connection through Neil with

466
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:33.799
Scott, but once we did,
we got an understanding of what the magnitude

467
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:40.559
of this was. And it's actually
three days worth of footage because it's it's

468
00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.160
all this stuff that he shot.
In the days leading up to the Last

469
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.519
Nightro. They did some like ah, I think it's like an MTV thing.

470
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:52.240
They did like some parties like leading
up to the like over the weekend

471
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.839
before Monday. Yeah, they would
do the spring breakout events. Yeah,

472
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.799
whatever they call it. It's all
the spring break stuff. And and that

473
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:06.640
there was interviews with wrestlers like Canyon
and you know, Bill DeMott and Booker

474
00:32:06.680 --> 00:32:10.880
t and uh, there was like
footage of like like like like the thing

475
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.079
that really made me be like,
okay, guys, we got to like

476
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:17.039
make this deal like tomorrow. Is
when they told me there was footage of

477
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.000
Shane McMahon in the ring in the
daytime, and I was like, what,

478
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:24.240
Yeah, he had that turtleneck on
it three in the afternoon in Panama

479
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:30.400
City, Florida. Jesus, Yeah, like what. But I just always

480
00:32:30.640 --> 00:32:32.319
in my head. I don't know
why, but I always assumed that like

481
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.359
Shane like you know, landed in
the in the jet, you know,

482
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:39.079
like ten minutes before they went on
the air. You know. That's what

483
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:43.519
was in my head. So just
kind of was like, whoa, this

484
00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.799
is crazy. So then we were
able to make a deal with Scott and

485
00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:52.599
all the footage was was sent to
me and I went through every single frame

486
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:57.200
of it myself and it was awesome
and just making my own selects, finding

487
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:00.240
the little nuggets, you know within
would you? How could you? How?

488
00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:04.799
How difficult was that process? Like
looking through all that stuff and and

489
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:10.640
this this incredible never seen footage of
this monumental night or or even event in

490
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:15.240
wrestling, and like, how could
you? I mean, obviously there was

491
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:21.559
obviously some some crap in there,
I'm sure, but everything so valuable yeah,

492
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:23.359
okay. So here's the thing about
it. It was amazing and it

493
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.920
took me about a week to get
through all of it. But here's the

494
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:35.759
thing. It's not footage that as
amazing as it is, it's it's not

495
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:39.880
footage that sort of can tell its
own story. You know. It needs

496
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.960
like a voiceover. Yeah, yes, it needs someone to really narrate it

497
00:33:45.079 --> 00:33:50.160
or to tie it all together to
make it really like watchable and as amazing

498
00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:57.119
as I'm making it sound. And
unfortunately, this footage came to us after

499
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.000
we had filmed all the interviews,
so we weren't able to show the footage

500
00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:04.759
to any anybody like we like,
we couldn't show it to Conan or we

501
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:07.920
couldn't show it to Booker T and
be like, hey, look at this,

502
00:34:07.079 --> 00:34:08.880
you know, and have them react
to it, because of course we

503
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.559
would have if the timing had been
different. So it really was this thing

504
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:15.519
that came in late in the game
and it just like jammed our heads and

505
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.559
changed everything where we're like, oh
my god, what are we gonna do?

506
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.199
You know, we got to work
this in somehow, But I do

507
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:27.159
think there's something that could be made
and maybe we'll look at maybe we'll look

508
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:31.599
into this as some tangential side thing
that we do where it is narrated or

509
00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:35.440
something, or we can look through
it and how many hours do you reckon?

510
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.159
It? Is a lot. It's
a lot. I don't know,

511
00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:49.199
ten four, maybe three, maybe
no, maybe eight to ten maybe,

512
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:52.639
oh yeah, maybe, I don't
know. It's a lot of b roll.

513
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:54.920
There's a lot of b roll.
There's a lot of like you know,

514
00:34:55.159 --> 00:34:59.239
there's a lot of interviews, like
a lot of a lot of the

515
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.639
run time is in with people who
some of what you see in the in

516
00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:07.159
the episode four, and there's just
like kind of this fly on the wall

517
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:08.840
b roll. There's lots of great
little moments, lots of like you know,

518
00:35:09.000 --> 00:35:15.320
verite of the wrestlers at catering,
and you know, yeah, there's

519
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:16.440
a lot of it, you know, but it's not like again, it's

520
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.400
not it you have to have.
It doesn't really speak to you unless you're

521
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:23.840
you know, you have someone walking
you through it. Kind of could you

522
00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:30.440
tell always being SERVEI catering in the
footage mister frame by frame, let's put

523
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:34.519
him to the test. I want
the standard deaf. So yeah, that's

524
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.920
true, that's true. Good point. It's probably just chicken breast. Anyway,

525
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:38.880
I love the one where Shane Helms
wrapped something around his neck like he's

526
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.599
gonna hang himself. That's fucking great. Yeah, there's like lots of like

527
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:45.599
little Easter egg moments in there,
and and some and there was more.

528
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:49.079
There was other great stuff that just
didn't make the cut, you know,

529
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.480
and but there, Yeah, there
there's some awesome stuff in there. I'm

530
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:53.360
trying to think of something off the
top of my head. I mean,

531
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.760
one of the things that really hit
home for me in looking through the footage

532
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:02.960
and listening of the interviews was,
you know, there's like interviews with a

533
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:07.320
lot of just the the crew,
the people behind the scenes, the like

534
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:13.000
technical crew that have been you know, working for this company for some of

535
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.719
them over a couple of decades.
Yeah, that's that's the perspective. This

536
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.079
guy who took this footage is coming
from like his colleagues. Not that he's

537
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.360
not so much about the wrestlers he
talks to him, but it's about these

538
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.159
collegial, full time people who've been
holding cameras for WCW for like, yes,

539
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:30.000
thirty years, I mean twenty fifteen
whatever. Yeah, there's actually an

540
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:31.679
interview with a guy can't remember his
name right now, but he was like

541
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.559
the he was the package editor,
you know, he's in the broadcast truck

542
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.400
like cutting the cutting, like the
video promos for the matches and stuff,

543
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:43.719
and so just talking to people like
that, like what's it been like working

544
00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:46.840
for this company? You get this
whole He paints a picture of it being

545
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:52.039
this a family on the road,
you know, that's been traveling week after

546
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:53.800
week and doing this on that that
comes through when Neil Prue it chokes up

547
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:55.920
by the way, it's like wow, oh yea of all the people to

548
00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.320
get choked up at the death of
WCW, it's a guy who, you

549
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:02.360
know, you would think would just
consider it a workaday job, you know,

550
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.800
on a production, but he like, that's that's WCW. Who are

551
00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.360
Those are the people that were there
through all the bullshit exactly and and and

552
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:15.440
those are the people that like are
making all this really possible, you know?

553
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:17.239
And uh so, yeah, there's
interviews with like, you know,

554
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:21.360
production designers, make up people,
all this stuff, and you get this

555
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:24.840
family. This this just you know, tangible like they're they're on the road.

556
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:30.119
They're like the brothers and sisters of
w CW and then I just caught

557
00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:34.239
like a shot very quick b roles
in the show, but it's a little

558
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:37.400
too short for you to notice.
But there's like a during you know,

559
00:37:37.559 --> 00:37:43.360
backstage during Panama City, there's a
little like uh uh likes poster board mounted

560
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:45.719
on the wall, and it's like
crudely written, like like sharpie writing,

561
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:49.840
and it says like, uh,
please stay in touch, like we have

562
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:52.440
to stay in touch, like please
write your phone number on this on this

563
00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:55.400
board, you know, and it's
just like wow, you know, because

564
00:37:57.000 --> 00:38:00.320
one of the things that's also underappreciated
about the last Nitro and just how everything

565
00:38:00.360 --> 00:38:06.199
went down is, you know,
a few days before the show, people

566
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.760
knew WW. You know, most
people knew WW was going to buy this

567
00:38:08.840 --> 00:38:14.119
thing, but they didn't know what
was going to happen. Like they didn't

568
00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.559
know is WW going to keep this
thing going? Are we going to just

569
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.840
you know, maybe take a little
break and we'll be back and Nitro and

570
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.480
just you know, WW is gonna
own us, but there's still going to

571
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:27.599
be a Nitro or are they going
to fold us into this company or nobody

572
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:34.039
was told anything. So there's this
very tangible sense of uncertainty and Uh,

573
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.840
like a like a thick atmosphere of
uncertainty that's just very palpable on that footage,

574
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:42.880
and uh, it was just so
cool to see and like, wow,

575
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:45.039
I mean really it really makes the
series to me in a lot of

576
00:38:45.079 --> 00:38:50.679
ways to be able to like unveil
something like that, you know that just

577
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:52.639
that just I don't even know what
the series would be without it, to

578
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:55.360
be honest with you, Yeah,
really had some of the most tantalizing stuff

579
00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:00.280
and the promo to hook people on
the series, and you see gaved it

580
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:02.679
to the end, which was a
stroke of brilliant. So did you guys

581
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:06.400
try to talk to Brian Badal at
all? He's somebody that we've heard from

582
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.280
in the past on documentaries about this. Did Did he say, no,

583
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:14.920
I'm interested if maybe he's had enough
of revisiting this. No, honestly,

584
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:19.119
Honestly, the honest truth is he
was on the list. We had this

585
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:22.920
big list. Oh yeah, you
know, I remember, I remember helping

586
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:27.239
populate it. Yeah, we had
a list of names and we were given

587
00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:30.280
the number of shooting days and it
was just a puzzle piece, a puzzle

588
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:35.800
to make it all work, and
just we just we Brian had to unfortunately

589
00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:39.119
be cut. I don't I don't
know if we I'm not sure if we

590
00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:44.159
talked to him or not, but
it was just like, yeah, we

591
00:39:44.199 --> 00:39:45.280
just don't have a we don't have
a spot for him right now. Yeah,

592
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:47.480
you know, yeah, well when
you get Brad Sigel, that's that's

593
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:50.760
big. I mean, you know
you had tried to get Brad Sigel for

594
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:52.840
We've probably talked about this before,
for bashing each two thousand, because he's

595
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:55.760
a big player in the Hogan Russel
lawsuit and he was not interested. So

596
00:39:57.519 --> 00:39:59.719
that must have felt like, uh, you know, it was it was

597
00:39:59.760 --> 00:40:02.719
that it was part that he was
not interested, in part that he didn't

598
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:07.000
have a strong memory of any of
it. Yeah, according to him,

599
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.679
well he doesn't remember if he suggested
selling WCW or not. So remember I

600
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.000
may have made the suggestion, or
I may have latched onto someone else's suggestion.

601
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.400
It's it's only fair of him to
to make that. Make that clarification.

602
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.280
There's another one. I know you
guys put it in, probably with

603
00:40:21.320 --> 00:40:24.079
a little smirk because you know it's
it's great stuff where he's he doesn't remember

604
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:30.280
how much he allotted to WCW for
a quote unquote rights fee. But but

605
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.880
he knows that it wasn't a lot
he doesn't, you know. He kind

606
00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:36.079
of gets to these points, I
feel like, and at least the clips

607
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:39.840
you guys included in the Dock where
he's about to kind of admit that he

608
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:44.519
could give a fuck about what happened
to his w Matt. Maybe that's not

609
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:46.920
fair, but he like he hesitates
it, very interesting moments, pregnant,

610
00:40:46.920 --> 00:40:53.280
pauses almost he's unfortunately kind of you
know, finds himself as the heel of

611
00:40:53.320 --> 00:40:58.039
the show. Yeah, yeah,
you know, he is kind of fortunately

612
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:02.519
put in that position. However,
I will say that I do want I

613
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:07.920
welcome his opinion, like his perspective
on this whole thing. I think it's

614
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:12.719
a very sobering take because again,
like we, you know, we started

615
00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.320
out this pod, we were sort
of talking about how as wrestling fans,

616
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:20.920
you know, we we we project
onto these decisions and these time periods as

617
00:41:20.920 --> 00:41:23.480
it's as as if it's the most
important thing that ever happened in the history

618
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:29.079
of mankind, you know. So
for him, he's bringing he brings it

619
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.320
way down to earth, you know, And I do appreciate that. But

620
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.360
also he does take some responsibility by
the end in episode four, he's you

621
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:39.039
know, he's he's he's pretty much
saying like, you know, hey,

622
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:44.360
you know, I couldn't help find
that idea. I wasn't that guy,

623
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:46.920
you know, and I wish we
could have done things differently. And you

624
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.840
know, he was sad about it
at a certain point, which I wouldn't

625
00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.519
expect him to say that, even
even halfheartedly, you know, yes,

626
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:58.199
and you know, sometimes that's just
the way things go, you know,

627
00:41:58.280 --> 00:42:00.239
and and and oh, you know, the line that really resonated with me

628
00:42:01.719 --> 00:42:08.000
for episode four is Stu Snyder when
he's sort of clearing the air on the

629
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:13.679
conspiracy and he says, you know, because he knows Turner, he knows

630
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.159
the environment over there because he had
worked there, but just sort of saying

631
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:23.039
that there was no strong advocate for
w CW in those final that final year

632
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:28.639
there who was sticking up for it, you know, because Eric, remember

633
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:31.440
he's not a he's not an employee. He is a consultant at this time,

634
00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:37.159
and there was nobody there who had
a vision and who was going to

635
00:42:37.199 --> 00:42:40.920
stick up and fight the battles.
And honestly, I'm trying to put I'm

636
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:46.119
trying to like imagine if I had
been fired from Dark side of the Ring,

637
00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:52.719
and there wasn't somebody like myself or
Jason who would stick, who would

638
00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:55.639
fight all the battles that we have
to fight, right you know, I

639
00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:00.840
it would be you would be seeing
the most you know, you you would

640
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:07.320
be seeing a completely different show,
you know. And that's such an underappreciated

641
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:10.880
element of this whole story, is
like how things would have been different,

642
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:17.760
you know, had Eric not lost
his passion for for for WCW. I

643
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.360
think that is something that comes clear
through episode two at the end as well,

644
00:43:22.760 --> 00:43:23.960
is he just has no fucks left
to give. He's like, well,

645
00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:28.000
these guys turn their back on me. I don't care anymore. And

646
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:31.639
I think that showed and that's a
problem, you know. And I think

647
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:37.039
when you don't have somebody who's going
to fight these battles, then then all

648
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:40.880
of the corporate masterminds are going to
take over and it's going to become homogenized

649
00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:45.880
and it's gonna it's not gonna it's
not gonna work. And you know,

650
00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:50.239
coincident with that nineteen ninety eight Eric
Bischoff time period is also a lot of

651
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.199
attempts to do something that, you
know, to get the ratings momentum back

652
00:43:52.199 --> 00:43:55.559
from WWF that just didn't work.
I mean, yes, you know,

653
00:43:55.599 --> 00:44:00.679
you talk about the Jay Leno angle, you talk about uh, you know,

654
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.599
Warrior bringing in Warrior and what an
unmitigated disaster that ended up being.

655
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:08.880
You talk about him challenging Vince to
a fight in person in a real show

656
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:13.199
of desperation. Harvey Schuler has said
that Bishoff by the end of ninety eight

657
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.519
was actually proposing to float a rumor
that he had died or disappeared in a

658
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:21.199
plane crash. Yeah, that was
something that unfortunately was one of the one

659
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:22.800
of the things to get cut.
Now that you mentioned things that weren't in

660
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:28.119
the show, that's one of them. That was one thing that I still

661
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:30.440
kind of am a little sad is
not in the show because it was in

662
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:34.280
there for a while. Uh when
how did he feel it? Just out

663
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.840
of curiosity? Was he? Because
to me, that's like almost like a

664
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.000
cry for help, Like when that's
what we're coming up with, you know,

665
00:44:40.519 --> 00:44:45.079
it's it's it is and and and
to me it was a very like,

666
00:44:45.280 --> 00:44:49.159
uh, yeah, it was dramatic. But one of the reasons why

667
00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.039
we cut it at the last minute
was because it just never came to fruition,

668
00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.920
and it was a little unsatisfying,
Yeah, just dramatically so uh but

669
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.360
but basically, yeah, he had
floated the idea that he, you know,

670
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:04.280
because Eric was a known pilot and
that you know, one of his

671
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.239
private planes, he was going to
get into a crash and and and and

672
00:45:07.239 --> 00:45:09.360
and be killed and and he wanted
to go as so far as to try

673
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:15.239
and get CNN to cover it,
you know, oh my god, like

674
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:17.679
this had actually happened, and so
then it would be reported on the news.

675
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:21.880
But then of course all these like
you know, if if anyone found

676
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:24.000
out and all this stuff, like
all it just would be a disaster.

677
00:45:24.239 --> 00:45:29.360
And so it didn't get it didn't
get farther than just a loose, uh

678
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:34.039
kind of off the cuff idea.
But because how is that gonna stunt?

679
00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.239
How is that kind of a stunt
gonna like you get you get like five

680
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:42.920
seconds of it, five seconds of
of of like note of notoriety, and

681
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:47.519
then it's over like after well,
it's such a weird misremembering, unless I'm

682
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:53.599
misremembering. I thought it was because
he just wanted to be out of the

683
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:59.880
like uh like out of the spotlight. The limelight and didn't want to.

684
00:46:00.159 --> 00:46:01.760
I don't know he saw, if
I remember correctly, he saw a moment

685
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:06.159
where he returned, like you know
that moment of like what if someone came

686
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:07.559
back from the dead on a wrestling
show. Oh, you're right, that's

687
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:09.599
what it was. But it's right, there's a problem, you know,

688
00:46:09.599 --> 00:46:15.039
the probably traded company. Like if
you say the truth that the top executive

689
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:16.679
of a part of this publicly traded
company is dead, it's it's like when

690
00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:20.440
Vince blew up in the limo.
I was conflating it with that. I

691
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:22.400
was conflating it with because Vince just
kind of wanted to be off air,

692
00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:25.239
Right, wasn't that what that was? Or yeah, there was, Yeah,

693
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:28.199
there was a plan to do the
funeral and everything, and then Chris

694
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:35.360
Monro happened, and my god,
right, he's a lapsed fan wrestling podcast

695
00:46:35.719 --> 00:46:49.280
with Jack and and Jpi Soro.
He's a lapsed fan wrestling podcast. My

696
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:51.599
god, what a time. You're
saying you wouldn't have tuned in Monday,

697
00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:53.119
boss if you heard over the weekend
that Bishoff went missing in a plane.

698
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:58.079
No, no, I definitely would
have no question. My point is,

699
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:00.840
what do you do after that?
Like you you've you've basically put all your

700
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:04.719
ear It's like the Archete title change
in one basket. You put all your

701
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.239
eggs in one basket to like get
a rating, and then after that nobody

702
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:14.280
watches again. Yeah, the longer
term stuff, that's that's that's interesting.

703
00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:15.920
There's a lot of things in ninety
eight, and again you can include it

704
00:47:16.280 --> 00:47:20.880
anywhere near all of them where it's
like, Okay, there they are trying.

705
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.079
It's it's it's it's a little charitable
to say he stopped trying. He

706
00:47:23.159 --> 00:47:25.760
just failed. No one gave a
shit about any of the ideas they were

707
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.079
coming up with, or at least
the ideas that they could get across the

708
00:47:29.079 --> 00:47:31.800
transom and get onto television through all
the filters of the Hogan Contract and all

709
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:36.000
that shit, right, and and
the and and and the ironic part,

710
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:40.639
or you know, is is that
you know, they they'd always kind of

711
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:44.840
gone back to the well to try
to to try to make something that had

712
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:49.679
already worked work again, which is
a very sort of common, uh,

713
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.000
you know, bad move. But
but you know they had all the talent

714
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:59.320
in the world too, you know. And and I think, as Conan

715
00:47:59.480 --> 00:48:04.880
says, very eloquently in the in
the last episode here talking about how I

716
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:07.039
think if that, if if the
mid card was able to mix with the

717
00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:10.199
top guys, Yeah, he says
it. No, yeah, I mean

718
00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:15.199
you would have that would have been
that would have been incredible if as we've

719
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:16.280
been doing this, we've been talking
about that. You know, it's like

720
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:20.360
they just didn't have another gear after
the nWo. It's not that they made

721
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:22.719
the mistake of trying too many times. It's that they simply didn't have any

722
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:27.239
other idea that would have drawn a
rating that they could execute with the talent.

723
00:48:27.280 --> 00:48:29.960
And he goes, they had to
manage if they even had the creativity

724
00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:30.440
to come up with it in the
first place. But you get into a

725
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:35.239
situation where a Brad Siegel gets the
reins and he's leaning in to the same

726
00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:39.079
idea people from Russo and men Bischoff
that sort of delivered the company to this.

727
00:48:39.400 --> 00:48:43.480
You know, a lot of fingers
to point. It's an age old

728
00:48:43.599 --> 00:48:47.000
TV thing. You know, when
one thing works, you just do more,

729
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.199
you know, and and that is
a classic move, you know,

730
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:57.000
and it's it never really works.
You know, people don't learn the lesson

731
00:48:57.039 --> 00:49:00.400
from that one. Why do you
think Teddy Turner sat for an interview.

732
00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:01.679
I was fascinated by that. I
mean, he's there. He speaks a

733
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:05.119
lot about the merger, which is
really interesting, but he doesn't know anything

734
00:49:05.119 --> 00:49:07.400
abou wrestling, but he kind of
knows his dad as a heart for it.

735
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:13.679
Yeah, what about that. Yeah, when when we were going through

736
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:17.440
the the prep stages for the for
this and looking at all the research and

737
00:49:17.480 --> 00:49:22.880
figuring out how we were gonna tell
this story again, it's like, you

738
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:27.679
know, ted Turner's never really sat
for an interview or talked about WCW in

739
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:31.039
a very long time, and he's
such a huge part of this story.

740
00:49:32.280 --> 00:49:37.000
You know, he's not only there
would be no WCW without him, but

741
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:43.840
also he's this character where you know, he's sort of insulating and protecting this

742
00:49:44.000 --> 00:49:47.599
property in his portfolio that everybody else
doesn't want to have to be associated with.

743
00:49:49.920 --> 00:49:52.679
But then, of course, once
he gets removed from power, it's

744
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.000
kind of you know, it's,
uh, it's it's free game for anybody

745
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:59.440
to try and take it down.
Yeah. So he's an important figure in

746
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:02.360
this whole story and we wanted some
representation from from him, and we'd heard

747
00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:07.920
over the years that his health had
been in decline and so kind of taking

748
00:50:07.960 --> 00:50:12.239
a page out of our own book
when when we did the Black Saturday episode

749
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:15.519
and and and same happened with Ole
Anderson. He was not in interview shape

750
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:19.280
that we were like, well,
you know his maybe his son could uh

751
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.880
oh yeah, he was crazy.
He was great, and he sort of

752
00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:25.840
proxied for him. And so it
was kind of the same approach where it's

753
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:31.079
like, you know, maybe maybe
maybe you know Ted has a family member

754
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:36.639
who knows enough about this. And
and Teddy is interesting because he he you

755
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:39.079
know, he worked for Turner Broadcasting. I believe he actually also did work

756
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:45.159
for w CW at one point,
so you know, he he he was

757
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.440
a part of the company. And
yeah, I think it's good to get

758
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:51.719
you know, he's not in there
a lot, but I think that what

759
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:57.239
he brings to it is again another
sort of sarrogate perspective of Ted and talk

760
00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:59.519
about how you did get who you
thought to get, who you couldn't get,

761
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:02.000
who you had to pass on.
I'm sure you were surprised as anybody

762
00:51:02.000 --> 00:51:06.280
to see the nature Boy himself after
episode one, but like, you're not

763
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:08.159
going to talk to me. Everybody
in the world knows that he was not

764
00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:10.840
happy with you guys on the plane
ride from Hell, but he wanted to

765
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:15.000
be on the show. I how
do you deal with that? How do

766
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:17.039
you react to it? I guess
is really the question? I mean,

767
00:51:17.559 --> 00:51:22.000
yeah, good question, I mean
yeah, it again, it was,

768
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.360
it was, It was a tricky
thing. I honestly thought there'd be no

769
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:29.119
way in hell that he would want
to do it. Number one. And

770
00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:31.840
then second of all, it was
just again looking at the looking at trying

771
00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:36.960
to create and look, I mean, Rick Flair is WCW. You know,

772
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:40.039
he's the face. Him and Staying
are like the two big icons of

773
00:51:40.079 --> 00:51:45.280
the entire company. But again,
I just felt like, after we had,

774
00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:50.679
you know, gone through the research
and gone through Guy's book and going

775
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:55.840
through how we're going to break this
story down in four episodes, and specifically

776
00:51:55.840 --> 00:52:00.239
not as a history of w CW. This isn't This isn't the complete history

777
00:52:00.360 --> 00:52:04.880
of the company. This is a
sort of, if you will, a

778
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.199
essay or a look at a very
specific element of the story of WCW.

779
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:15.039
Rick Flair is not, to me
somebody that that shows up that's synonymous with

780
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:20.440
its downfall, you know, And
I sort of felt like and maybe I'm

781
00:52:20.440 --> 00:52:22.639
wrong about that, but that was
my gut at the time, and especially

782
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:29.840
again going back to the seventeen or
eighteen shooting days we had, Rick Flair

783
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.639
may have may have cost three or
four shooting days, you know, let's

784
00:52:32.639 --> 00:52:36.960
be real. Yeah, sure,
you know, it just it just didn't

785
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:38.880
seem like, uh, it just
would have been hard and like all these

786
00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:44.039
interviews have to work for four episodes, you know. So and honestly,

787
00:52:44.079 --> 00:52:45.400
I just didn't think that there was
any way in hell he would have wanted

788
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:50.079
to do it. You know.
Yes, of course, what I've heard

789
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:52.639
through the grapevine, the things that
is that you know, he said about

790
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:58.079
me and you know, never wanting
to you know, work with us,

791
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:00.840
and all this, I just only
assume to that, you know. And

792
00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:05.679
so but yeah, who knows.
Maybe maybe if things would have things could

793
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:07.320
have gone differently too. I don't
know. It was again, everything was

794
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:12.239
moving so fast, and I also
I also wanted to create this show to

795
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:16.400
not just be the top guys too, you know. And obviously Hogan was

796
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:21.880
someone we were really chasing for this
because he's he is synonymous, you know,

797
00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:22.960
with these parts of you know,
his name comes up a lot.

798
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:28.760
Well, the contract and of course, the star, the all you know,

799
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.320
the finger poke a doom, the
Goldberg match, the Sting match which

800
00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:37.960
put him over. It's a problem
exactly what are we going to talk about?

801
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:40.079
I did well, you know,
I did well. They asked me

802
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:43.559
to do, brother, I didn't. I didn't question creative and then you

803
00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:46.239
know, looks the company sinks to
it's not my fault. Yeah, So

804
00:53:47.199 --> 00:53:52.320
it's like, you know, there's
somebody who's checking all the boxes in terms

805
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:53.519
of all the parts of the story
we know that are going to make the

806
00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:57.360
air. So that was something,
you know, he was he was really

807
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:00.280
we were really trying to chase him. I thought for a while there had

808
00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:02.239
him, and then he ultimately passed, and I was like, oh that

809
00:54:02.320 --> 00:54:05.960
hurts. Pretty bummed, Yeah I
was. I was bummed because this is

810
00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:07.440
your best shot. You know,
you've got Dwayne involved. It's like,

811
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:12.480
yeah, Eric, and yeah,
I thought that for a minute, because

812
00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.920
that's what I envisioned, you know, I'd envisioned that obviously this was going

813
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:21.119
to include Hulk from the beginning,
and and so and I expected more maybe

814
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:22.519
you have it and just didn't frame
it this way. I expected more finger

815
00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:27.840
pull pointing at Hulk than there was
really but the exception of like Bash of

816
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:30.360
the Beach two thousand, when you
get there, there really wasn't a lot

817
00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:32.400
of talk of like, no matter
how you know, no matter what we

818
00:54:32.440 --> 00:54:37.519
wanted to do, if Hulk Hogan's
program isn't the money drawing program WCW is

819
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:42.440
really nothing because you're not going to
get it's not gonna the good vibes won't

820
00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:45.000
cascade down the card like it did
when he turned heel and lit the place

821
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:46.960
on fire. If he's not there, and then you know, the money

822
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:50.239
he commands just to be on a
show, you got to pay him even

823
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:52.320
if he even if you don't book
him on the pay per view. Come

824
00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:54.480
to find out, as the contract
came out, you know, I expected

825
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.320
there are a lot more of that. And yeah, I could see that.

826
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.760
I could see there being kind of
a also a finer point being put

827
00:55:02.800 --> 00:55:08.199
on, like the idea of you
know, Hogan is what was needed to

828
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:12.760
sway the you know, just to
even be competitive totally. You know,

829
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:16.559
and here's a guy who comes in
and and and we got him. But

830
00:55:16.880 --> 00:55:22.000
all of the things we agreed to
and all the things that we're we're doing

831
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.679
is to swing the immediate and I
think Dick Cheatham does say that. I

832
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:28.239
think maybe in the fourth episode,
I think is one of he says,

833
00:55:28.679 --> 00:55:30.960
you know, all these deals and
things we agreed to help the swing swing

834
00:55:31.000 --> 00:55:34.800
the immediate, but in the long
term they were not good for us.

835
00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:36.960
And Siegel says too, you know, he says, it's the cast of

836
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:39.480
characters that was w CW that made
it impossible. And that's probably part and

837
00:55:39.480 --> 00:55:44.480
parcel of his remark about pathological liars, because when he did dip his toe

838
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:47.360
into like how to actually get into
the into the guts of a wrestling company

839
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:51.000
and try to figure out what it
takes on, he was just like,

840
00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:52.639
no, no, thanks, holding
his nose like this is not this is

841
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:58.719
not the personality type that I find
myself having any success working with. And

842
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:00.920
he's right, by the way,
it's yeah, no, and it's it's

843
00:56:01.039 --> 00:56:05.400
very hard to find anyone who can
speak both languages. I feel like,

844
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:07.920
yeah, you know, yeah,
that's why b Cheetah is such a godsend

845
00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:10.239
because he happens to be a self
described mark. He loves wrestling. You

846
00:56:10.280 --> 00:56:14.400
know, it's cool. You know
what's cool about him is one thing that

847
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:17.559
we didn't get to include in the
show because I also didn't want to retread

848
00:56:17.679 --> 00:56:22.280
like too much of the Monday Night
Wars beats that we've all heard, but

849
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:29.280
the like DX invasion. H during
the DX invasion, he was actually the

850
00:56:29.320 --> 00:56:34.920
one that opened the garage door and
like he he was the one that wanted

851
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.400
to was really campaigning to let them
into the building. Well, he saw

852
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:40.039
them and CNN Center and is from
his office. He's talked about this and

853
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:45.039
he went down there and took pictures
with him. He has like pictures's mugging

854
00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:47.599
with the d X guys. Yeah, the coolest thing. Yeah, yeah,

855
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:52.719
yeah, that's awesome. That's pretty
wild. So all right, well

856
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.360
we have to do it. Who
killed WCW. We asked everybody on the

857
00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:05.079
pod. We've had go Hoove,
entude, Guerra, I agree. Finally

858
00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:12.719
somebody said it. Oh man,
Oh isn't it weird. I don't have

859
00:57:12.760 --> 00:57:14.920
an answer for this. It feels
like, oh, that's that's to be

860
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:19.159
expected. I should have an answer
for this. Remember in the beginning,

861
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.480
it was like maybe we should frame
it where like each episode is blame him,

862
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:25.360
blame him. Yeah, like this
whole episode is about whether Kevin Nash

863
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:28.199
killed w c W. No One, no, one pointed at him,

864
00:57:28.199 --> 00:57:31.440
by the way, which can in
the series totally skipped over his disastrous nineteen

865
00:57:31.480 --> 00:57:37.599
ninety nine booking run. But but
you know, all the power to him

866
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:44.239
one thing that wasn't there at one
point. Yes, yeah, I mean,

867
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:50.039
I mean honestly, like you know, when I see people saying Jamie

868
00:57:50.119 --> 00:57:53.880
Kellner, you know, because he's
Yes, he's the one that actually physically

869
00:57:54.559 --> 00:57:58.239
pulled the plug. But it was
already on life support. You know,

870
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:00.400
it was already a vegetable. Yeah, he's a guy that wasn't there that

871
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.119
suddenly was. And so if you
have to point to like that that specific

872
00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:07.000
a change element, it makes sense. But I don't know, as the

873
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:10.280
years have gone it it's it rings
a little hollow to just blame him to

874
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:15.280
Yes, exactly, he put it
out of its misery, I think,

875
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:22.320
and I think you know the man
Obviously, the title of the show is

876
00:58:22.440 --> 00:58:28.440
supposed to be tongue in cheek.
It's supposed to be mildly humorous because it

877
00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:34.960
is a rhetorical question. It's not
something that you know, there's one person

878
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:40.800
you can point a finger at.
However, I do think by the time,

879
00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:45.000
like I have to say, Turner
Corporate as an entity is probably the

880
00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:52.800
one responsible because the seeds were sown
so early on that people did not believe

881
00:58:52.840 --> 00:58:54.880
in this company. But then of
course, hey, it took off and

882
00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:59.920
it flew very close to the sun. But when Eric's out of the picture,

883
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:04.159
even for all of his faults and
the things that weren't executed right,

884
00:59:04.519 --> 00:59:07.519
you know, in that in that
in nineteen ninety eight, when he left,

885
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:13.840
there just was not a strong advocate
there to fight against what needed to

886
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:19.400
in that in that environment. So
it's almost like the absence of that person

887
00:59:19.719 --> 00:59:23.119
is what killed WCW. I think
in a lot of ways. And uh,

888
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:25.920
because I just putting myself in those
shoes, like I could just see

889
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.360
how like nobody has a stake in
this anymore at that point. Eric has

890
00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:32.880
a steak in this company in ninety
six, ninety seven, you know,

891
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.079
and into ninety eight, but there
was nobody else who like really had a

892
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:44.599
passionate stake in this to to actually
be good. And uh, you know,

893
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:46.800
some would say Russo did, which
I think in his own way he

894
00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:53.960
did. It just obviously didn't work, you know, But honestly, I

895
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:59.360
think I think it is I think
it is the company from within that killed

896
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:04.199
its own that killed you know,
which I think is intriguing as a story

897
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:07.719
for sure, Yeah, for sure. So lots of chew on, I

898
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:08.679
don't know, sounds to me Evan
if I'm gonna pull in a couple of

899
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:12.639
strings here, there's there may be
even more to chew on. And then

900
01:00:12.679 --> 01:00:16.320
the months and years to come.
As it regards the great Mystery JP,

901
01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:20.039
we asked you at the top,
where do you fall? Who killed w

902
01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:23.679
C the Rock? Okay, well
he's the one who pins Steve Austin and

903
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:30.320
the Survivors series and the winner.
Take all that. One thing about the

904
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:37.880
Rock real quick, please be my
guest. Things about the Rock, Well,

905
01:00:37.920 --> 01:00:39.840
it's just it's just funny, like
you know, just seeing like a

906
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.199
lot of people like whaty is he? And this and you know he put

907
01:00:43.280 --> 01:00:46.159
himself in the show and all this
stuff. I just want to say,

908
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:51.400
like you know, again, like
you got there's things first and foremost,

909
01:00:51.679 --> 01:00:58.840
nobody that we interviewed spoke like enthusiastically
about anything that happened in w CW.

910
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.519
Somebody has to put it over,
and and he's somebody who volunteered to put

911
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:06.360
it over. But also, like
you know, this show, it's like

912
01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:09.519
you know this is we're talking about
WCW on broadcast television. You know,

913
01:01:09.559 --> 01:01:14.559
in twenty twenty four, you also
got to like have some you know,

914
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:17.320
to be able to put have the
Rock on your television channel is definitely going

915
01:01:17.400 --> 01:01:22.159
to help you get the show made
too. So well, yeah, that's

916
01:01:22.199 --> 01:01:24.199
it. I'm glad you made that
point. I mean, I say what

917
01:01:24.280 --> 01:01:28.199
you will, but there's nobody that
would have passed on him, if you

918
01:01:28.199 --> 01:01:30.840
know, if offered for this series. Yeah, and and the fact that

919
01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:35.199
he wanted to help us out to
do that in order to get the show

920
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:38.119
made is like amazing. I mean
that is, if you had six episodes,

921
01:01:38.239 --> 01:01:40.880
you could have had one about what
it was like on the other curtain,

922
01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:44.400
right totally and he would have been
the voice of that. And anybody

923
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:46.320
who went over to WWF later could
have totally you know, Booker T and

924
01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:50.000
others could have contrasted the locker rooms
and the culture and that would have been

925
01:01:50.000 --> 01:01:52.320
a way in I think then it
would have been or this is Rocks point

926
01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:55.480
is we used to call it on
Labs Fan at this time in WCW when

927
01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:59.280
we were doing a WWF pay per
view. You know, it's like quickly

928
01:01:59.360 --> 01:02:01.039
this is what's going on on the
other channel, but it could have been

929
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:04.519
something like that, but the way
it shook out, he kind of has

930
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.599
these like these small comments along the
way, but he's the guy that brings

931
01:02:07.599 --> 01:02:12.159
it home and says it was fucking
awesome, and nobody else feels like saying

932
01:02:12.199 --> 01:02:14.760
that towards the end. Really it's
all about their personal journey. You know,

933
01:02:14.840 --> 01:02:17.199
the name ww rock comes out and
says it was awesome, and you

934
01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:21.199
need that for a show like this. Yeah, absolutely, Rad Sigel wasn't

935
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:25.119
going to say it. Yeah,
right, exactly. Everyone's so dejected about

936
01:02:25.159 --> 01:02:28.960
this, you know, because of
the way things shook out, but you

937
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:30.800
know, to actually still look back
on it and be like, dude,

938
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:36.880
like ninety six was awesome, man, you know, like after that,

939
01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:38.800
that shit was really cool and there
was a lot of great choices that were

940
01:02:38.800 --> 01:02:43.519
being made. A lot of people
were very inspired. There was a lot

941
01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.119
of very interesting, you know,
creative ideas coming together. It wasn't just

942
01:02:46.159 --> 01:02:50.039
a vision of one person. You
know, you had a Neil Pruet,

943
01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:52.679
you had a Kevin Sullivan, You
had people, you know, even Kevin

944
01:02:52.760 --> 01:02:55.599
Nash, who are contributing these really
cool ideas and making something really special.

945
01:02:55.960 --> 01:03:01.239
Did it last forever? No,
but it was cool and at its prime,

946
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:06.360
and it's prime, and you find
yourself invested in debating all the minutia

947
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:07.719
of it as we talked about,
because it was something. It was,

948
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:12.840
Yeah, it was. It was
a phenomenon and so it wasn't like well

949
01:03:12.880 --> 01:03:15.519
I was about to say herb abrams, but that's also cool to you know,

950
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:20.639
dissect. It's a deeper cut it
is. Yeah, for no,

951
01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:23.199
not at all some other time.
Yeah, four part Who killed the UWF

952
01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:29.800
I think is uh is next?
Who birthed the uw YEA. We got

953
01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:32.079
to answer that question first. That
one isn't as easy to answer on the

954
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:35.960
front end like this one was.
But Evan, good stuff, man,

955
01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:38.360
Thank you so much for having us
along for the ride, and UH look

956
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:43.199
forward to collaborating more in the future. Absolutely, yeah, we should definitely.

957
01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:45.239
I'll say it here on the record. I'll say it here. We

958
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:52.599
should do an unheard of for this
ay now, because I'm sure there's a

959
01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:54.559
lot we could do for this,
and maybe it's something we should have done

960
01:03:54.679 --> 01:03:58.280
during the run of the show,
but we can do it at some point.

961
01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:00.960
For here's our turn. I want
to do an unheard of, just

962
01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:06.000
that that final nitro footage. Fine, yeah we could do that. Yeah,

963
01:04:06.079 --> 01:04:10.039
I mean that could be fun.
Yeah, we could figure out something

964
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:14.480
for that. Yeah. Everyone listening
knows who they need to turn to.

965
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:17.159
Evan knows who he needs to turn
to. We know who he needs to

966
01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:20.519
turn to. It's a beautiful thing, a beautiful alchemy. One more in

967
01:04:20.559 --> 01:04:25.199
the books. Who killed WCW?
Well everyone can now make perhaps some more

968
01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:29.159
educated guests on that age old question. Evin Husky, thanks for being here.

969
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:32.199
Yes, yes, thank you guys, appreciate it. Always fun and

970
01:04:32.239 --> 01:04:39.079
we'll talk soon. I'm sure.
It is a production of the LAPS Entertainment

971
01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:45.920
Group. Its content is intended for
private use only. We want