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Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado. Hey there 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,759 we have Blueire wanted to thank you for your continued support of this podcast. 12 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,240 With over ninety podcasts across our network, we are committed to bringing you great 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,399 content to fill that sports shaped hole in your heart. To find more Blue 14 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:58,320 Wire Pods, search for us on iTunes or check out blue wire Pods dot 15 00:00:58,399 --> 00:01:03,200 com. And remember, one day sports will return and it will be glorious. 16 00:01:03,679 --> 00:01:22,239 Thanks for listening onto the show. Hey, Hi, Hello, Howdy 17 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,640 Hardwood Knocks listeners, I am dam Valley coming at you with my super duper 18 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:33,560 incredibly esteems awesometimes awesome, fantabulous spectaculario. I almost forgot how to do this 19 00:01:33,599 --> 00:01:37,519 intro because he's been on like a two month hiatus. Co host Andrew D. 20 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,799 Bailey, We're gonna talk some last dance takeaways and try and avoid it 21 00:01:42,879 --> 00:01:49,200 being a recap for episodes five and six that we saw on Sunday night, 22 00:01:49,239 --> 00:01:51,319 and just try and get in a little bit deeper to a lot of the 23 00:01:52,319 --> 00:01:56,719 takeaways and fun anecdotes from it. First, though, I would just like 24 00:01:56,799 --> 00:02:01,719 to remind you to continue rating, reviewing, subscribing to Hardwood Knox on iTunes. 25 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,760 You can also get us wherever else you are consuming your podcast Spotify, 26 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Google Play, Stitcher, all those fun places. But we very much appreciate 27 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:14,599 for all the algorithms and seo stuff, ratings and reviews on the iTunes page, 28 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,120 and of course subscriptions. Make sure you're downloading all of our episodes. 29 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:22,199 Please, please, pretty please, Let's try and bury the one star review 30 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,479 that had to do with Kyrie Irving that I don't even think was necessarily commenting 31 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:30,479 on the podcast you follow. You can follow Hardwood Knox on Twitter at Hardwood 32 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:34,680 Knox. Also follow us on YouTube, YouTube, dot com search Hardwood Knox. 33 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,520 Remember we have the historical player rankings series up where we're ranking the top 34 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,759 ten players from every franchise over the past decade, and we have landing pages 35 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:46,439 at MBA, math, at YouTube, and again on iTunes. You can 36 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:50,840 listen to all those we are up to. As of this recording, The 37 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,840 Dallas Mavericks the Pistons will be be dropping soon shout out lastly, but not 38 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,599 leastly two hour sponsors for this week bet Online, dot ag and Blue Chew. 39 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,360 You will be hearing from them shortly, so be sure to plug in 40 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,199 those promo CODs. That that's another great way to help support the podcast with 41 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,560 all the housekeeping the ones out of the way, I ask, for the 42 00:03:09,599 --> 00:03:15,199 first time in quite some time, Andy, how are you doing. I'm 43 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:23,000 doing pretty well. It has been a long time. Apologies to you and 44 00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:27,800 the listeners, but as you just mentioned, you and Adam have been up 45 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,680 to great content producing in my absence. With the Top ten Players series has 46 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:38,000 been fun to listen to. I think it was maybe the day after the 47 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,560 season shut down, I sent out a mailbag tweet. I have yet to 48 00:03:42,599 --> 00:03:46,560 answer any of those questions, so I would draw any attention to that. 49 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:53,439 Apologies to those people who ask questions. Maybe I'll go back in there one 50 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:59,319 of these days see if there's anything that's still relevant and provide some answers on 51 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,639 those. But yeah, it's it's been a strange, bizarre time with no 52 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:10,360 live sports, but thank goodness we've got the Last Dance to kind of keep 53 00:04:10,439 --> 00:04:13,719 us occupied here right The one thing I'm worry about is now that we're more 54 00:04:13,759 --> 00:04:16,639 than halfway through, like you're gonna start having people since the end. We 55 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,959 only have four episodes, two more weeks left. They really positive have made 56 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:25,319 it like a twenty part documentary or something just to keep it rolling. Speaking 57 00:04:25,319 --> 00:04:28,519 of questions, though, before we get into episodes five and six, we 58 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,240 did have one question from the Last Pot Again. If you want to ask 59 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,720 any questions about what we think about the Last Dance or anything related to it, 60 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,120 you can hit either of us up on Twitter or the hardware Knock Twitter, 61 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,399 DMUs whatever. We won't answer them on the following part pod. We 62 00:04:41,439 --> 00:04:46,439 only have one this week. It comes from Mark McClure at Mark McClure seven. 63 00:04:46,639 --> 00:04:51,439 He asked, what do you not sure if you could chat though, 64 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:59,120 any influence Dennis Rodman has had on Draymond Green. I phrase that question, 65 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:02,319 Paul. He wants, so if we think any if Dennis Rodman, if 66 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:08,360 any had any influence on Draymond Green, I'll throw it to you. I 67 00:05:08,399 --> 00:05:11,839 think I will say to start off, I do think they're probably two of 68 00:05:11,879 --> 00:05:15,639 the most versatile defenders in history, but I feel like their games were pretty 69 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,639 like there's a stark contrast between the way that they play and their specialties, 70 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,439 particularly on offense. Yeah, I don't know if influence would be the word 71 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,959 that I would use, because I do think their games are drastically different. 72 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,720 They both, like you said, have the ability to guard a bunch of 73 00:05:32,759 --> 00:05:38,519 different positions. So maybe he was influenced by Rodman a bit in that regard. 74 00:05:40,519 --> 00:05:45,560 But I think I think one of Draymond's biggest strengths is the playmaking and 75 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,519 the fact that he was functionally the point guard in a lot of possessions for 76 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,279 the Dynasty Warriors, or at least what we what we used to consider a 77 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:58,439 point guard, handling the ball, making great reads, surveying the floor. 78 00:05:58,519 --> 00:06:03,839 That's something that Dennis Rodman never even came close to Draymond green On was was 79 00:06:03,879 --> 00:06:08,480 the playmaking and I think just the general offensive ability there was even that season 80 00:06:08,519 --> 00:06:12,879 I think it was twenty fifteen sixteen when they won seventy three games and Curry 81 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,839 had the best offensive season ever. Draymond had like a near sixty true shooting 82 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,120 percentage, and I kind of want to check myself just to be sure. 83 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,199 I think he shot close to forty percent from three, and it seems now 84 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:29,920 in hindsight that that season was an outlier, but he just he had a 85 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,439 more much more well rounded offensive game than Dennis Redmond is. And just to 86 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,639 clarify, fourteen points a game that season, thirty eight point eight percent from 87 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:46,160 three and let's see fifty eight point seven true shooting. Just a great offensive 88 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:49,519 season for him. Now, on the other side of the equation, Draymond 89 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:57,920 isn't in the same universe as Rodman as a rebounder. When you look at 90 00:06:57,959 --> 00:07:02,639 Dennis Redmond's Basketball Reference page, and the rebounding numbers are just absurd, especially 91 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:08,800 when you factor in how big he was. They're not dissimilar in size, 92 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:13,759 So for Rodman to be able to get seventeen eighteen rebounds a game in an 93 00:07:13,759 --> 00:07:17,759 era that was dominated by guys like Patrick Ewing and Hakim Elaijah Want and all 94 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,519 these other great centers that we just think of as legends now David Robinson's another 95 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,120 one. For him to be the best rebounder in that era is just crazy, 96 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,120 And it's been fun to watch little snippets of him in game action during 97 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:35,240 this documentary because you see some of the you see some of the skill that 98 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:39,680 went into rebounding for him because he was so much smaller. He obviously he 99 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,160 had a physical disadvantage against a lot of guys on the boards, but he 100 00:07:43,199 --> 00:07:46,040 was so good at reading angles tipping the ball to himself. I loved that. 101 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,959 I think it was an episode two, that little part where he talks 102 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,519 about just you know, going to the gym and having friends to shoot the 103 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:56,920 ball and he could see how the ball came off the rim. There was 104 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,600 so much to rebounding with him. So I think there are drastically different players. 105 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:03,560 I've dragged this question out for quite a bit. It was a good 106 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:11,040 one, but yeah, yeah, I don't really have anything to add there. 107 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:16,680 There's the again, maybe similar defensive versatility. I think he could probably, 108 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,519 but you know, I never I won't say never, but also young 109 00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:22,759 when Dennis Roman was playing, So I don't even I hesitate to say that 110 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:26,040 Draymond Green was more versatile or perhaps the better team defender. But there's that, 111 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,240 uh you know, there's video of Dennis Robmin guarding Magic Johnson, so 112 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:33,120 he was right up there as well. Was like he said, what they 113 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,320 did on offense was just it was a lot different. Could you imagine Dennis 114 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,679 Rodman doing some of the similar things on offense today? Maybe in terms of 115 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,879 setting screens and go into the basket when the Warriors allowed Draymond Green, Draymond 116 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:48,039 Green to do that, But other than that, I don't envision him as 117 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:52,879 someone who would bring the ball up or or anything like that. You know, 118 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,360 if he came up in this era, maybe potentially he has different coaching 119 00:08:56,399 --> 00:09:01,159 and different you know people that say, here, dribble the wall up and 120 00:09:01,159 --> 00:09:07,879 he works on those things. But it is it's somewhat difficult to imagine attention 121 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:13,080 Hardwood Knox listeners. With currently no NBA, NHL, or MLB, you 122 00:09:13,159 --> 00:09:16,799 might think that there's nothing to bet on. Well you'd be wrong. 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I think we've had this 132 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,399 conversation before. But I was born in eighty six. So the ninety eight 133 00:10:01,399 --> 00:10:05,919 team, really the ninety six, ninety seventeen and the ninety seven ninety eight 134 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,679 team, those are some of my first memories of like really being invested in 135 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:15,320 NBA basketball. Is that around the same age for you? So I was 136 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000 born in eighty nine, and I would probably say it was it was like 137 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,879 probably the season after this, like the first season that I remember vividly being 138 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:28,399 invested in. Is that lockout campaign where it was Nixon spits the amazing that 139 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,440 you remained a steadfast fan of the NBA if you came in right during the 140 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,960 Jordan vacuum. Well, I was still like I was still I just didn't 141 00:10:35,039 --> 00:10:39,600 understand it as well, like before I became like this, really like nuanced 142 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,039 an invested fan, I would say, because I remember the ninety seven ninety 143 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:46,840 eight Bulls team, but I wasn't old enough, nearly old enough to appreciate 144 00:10:46,879 --> 00:10:50,519 the finality of what was happening. And that was I said this after episodes 145 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,240 one and two, just the openness with which everyone knew that this was the 146 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,799 end and that the Bulls were shitting on Jerry Krause, Yeah, it's so 147 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,840 bizarre. We talked about how we have so much more access to these players 148 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,360 and teams now, and we do, but I really feel like we don't 149 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:11,000 have the candor that was delivered back then. And you even just look at 150 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:13,639 you know, I don't even know if you've noticed some of the media scrumbs 151 00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:16,720 around Michael Jordan and this. They're so much smaller than they would be today, 152 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,279 and so we've probably lost with the extra access, we've probably lost some 153 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,200 of the candidness, which is weird to think about. But sort of speaking 154 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,080 on that note, this has been I wouldn't say it was a prevailing theme 155 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:35,080 in episodes five and six, but throughout this documentary, the coverage of Jerry 156 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:37,960 Krauss, and these past two episodes, they didn't really focus on him too 157 00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:41,679 much, even though, as you mentioned before, we hopped on there was 158 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,200 the pot shot that Jordan threw at him, saying this smoky a cigar would 159 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,120 stunt his growth. And then what I really took away from it is I 160 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,840 can't remember if it was after it was after one of the titles. It 161 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,759 was ninety two or ninety three. I think maybe it was the ninety one 162 00:11:56,919 --> 00:12:01,720 title, Like I can't remember, but he they showed the clip of him 163 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,879 talking about, Yeah, the players are great, the coaches are great, 164 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:07,799 but it's the organization that wins championships. And I really believe that this is 165 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,600 one of the best organizations in the world. And so full disclosure, after 166 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,039 you know, the first two episodes, I was all about making jokes and 167 00:12:15,039 --> 00:12:18,159 I'm not also about to sit here and defend Jerry Krauss. And I didn't 168 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,240 really know him. I understand what he had a sort of this scouting track 169 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,639 record, But the way that they're covering him throughout this is getting wildly uncomfortable. 170 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,840 And part of that is we don't have him here to provide a rebuke 171 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,320 because he's because he passed away, and so that clearly stinks. But just 172 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:39,399 like sort of the added jabs like that, you know, the Tony Kukach 173 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:45,000 storyline, that's definitely something we can discuss. How Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippin 174 00:12:45,039 --> 00:12:48,399 made his life hell in the nineties and the first time I faced him in 175 00:12:48,399 --> 00:12:52,080 the ninety two Olympics, just because they knew that he was Jerry Kraus's guy, 176 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,840 And yeah, like there's probably just this level of tact that Jerry Krauss 177 00:12:56,919 --> 00:13:01,240 lacked throughout all this publicly closing the door. It seems I'm bringing back Phil 178 00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:05,159 Jackson and that Michael Jordan would have to deal with it after this year, 179 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,159 even though it's been reported that you know, he was open and bringing everyone 180 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,000 back at one point, Like, yeah, that's that's not a great look. 181 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,799 But I'm even just more focused on like the smaller parts, like like 182 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,759 you mentioned, and I'm mentioning again the pot shot that Jordan threw at him, 183 00:13:16,759 --> 00:13:20,679 putting that in the clip we look at it, think it was episode 184 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:24,759 four or three where he's on the plane dancing after a conference finals win. 185 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:28,240 I think I called it a finals win during the podcast I recorded solo and 186 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240 then Scottie Pippins like, sit down, Jerry, sit down. And then, 187 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,879 like I said, this interview where you know, maybe it was taking 188 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,360 out of context, maybe it's flat out wrong with to just throw it in 189 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:43,720 there that he's talking about how organizations win championships without actually saying it's not the 190 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:46,879 players, but you've you've put it and portrayed it in a way where it 191 00:13:46,879 --> 00:13:50,840 makes you feel like that's what he's saying, and in the moment too, 192 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,159 Like I bet, I bet if you had heard that quote live, you 193 00:13:54,360 --> 00:14:00,399 that would have made complete sense. It sounds like something a general manager would 194 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,320 say about a team that just won a championship. But like you said, 195 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:11,919 the way that it's been phrased is that he's sort of discounting what the players 196 00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:16,080 are doing, and he might not have meant it that way at the time. 197 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,840 But yeah, it's been it's been very very interesting to see how he's 198 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,759 been covered and there there's you know, like you said, he's not alive 199 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:31,159 to provide any kind of a rebuttal, but they could at least spend I 200 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,080 don't know, five minutes on some of the good things that he did. 201 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,440 I mean, he was the general manager for six championship teams. And yeah, 202 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,639 it's easy or not easy. It's easy, you're when you have Michael 203 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,200 Jordan. But correct me if I'm wrong. He's the guy who drafted Pip 204 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,519 In, he drafts Tony ku coach in the second round. He makes a 205 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:52,559 couple of you know, savvy trades. They actually did spend a little bit 206 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,919 of time on the Bill Cartwright trade in one of those early episodes. So 207 00:14:56,639 --> 00:15:01,600 maybe I'm unfairly criticizing the filmmakers now, but I do feel like there could 208 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,720 be a little bit more balanced with the story around him. Yeah, they 209 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,679 did mention the scouting stuff for like maybe five minutes, but you know, 210 00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:11,440 and so I don't even know if that's a criticism. There was probably a 211 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,519 lot of concessions that had to be made to get Jordan to sign off on 212 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:18,559 this, And I know there have been people who've talked about their journalistic integrity 213 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,360 of this, and I actually think those are fair points to highlight. That 214 00:15:22,399 --> 00:15:24,200 being said, I've still really enjoyed the documentary, and if those were the 215 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,159 common fines within which they were working, I do think they've done a good 216 00:15:28,279 --> 00:15:31,879 enough job. And like I said, you know, Jerry Kraut is certainly 217 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:35,080 guilty to some extent here the Kukach stuff, where I think it was in 218 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,440 one of these episodes they were talking about he went to negotiate with Tony Kukoach 219 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,919 while there were still negotiations going on with Scottie Pippen, and so to sort 220 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:48,000 of prioritize Tony Kukach over someone who's probably like one of the three best players 221 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,759 in the NBA at that point or something that is sort of wild, but 222 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:56,600 there it's I think that's what makes it so uncomfortable is he wasn't here or 223 00:15:56,639 --> 00:16:00,159 there at the time they were recording this to really just provide his side of 224 00:16:00,159 --> 00:16:02,879 the story. I'm not trying to turn him into a sympathetic figure. But 225 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,679 it is also interesting to me to see how even definitely Michael Jordan and then 226 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,600 Scottie Pippen a little bit and Phil Jackson a little bit have still thrown Jerry 227 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:15,799 Krauss under the bus in their present day interviews. And that's what's been interestingly 228 00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:18,200 because they know he's not here to respond, and so maybe you'd think that 229 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,159 they would feel a little bit different, But the fact that they don't makes 230 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:23,679 me think, Wow, maybe he really was that bad. But again, 231 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:27,200 it's it's a little bit unsettling now, just because it seems like they're really 232 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:33,080 pushing it as a main thesis of this is Jerry Krauss was the undoing of 233 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,039 this Bulls dynasty. And I guess if this is the story ultimately of the 234 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:44,399 ninety seven ninety eight team and they just hate Jerry Krauss, maybe the intention 235 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,039 is to show that hatred for him, and in that sense, I guess 236 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,480 it does kind of make sense. But like you and I have both said, 237 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,120 at this point, it might be nice to have a little bit of 238 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,799 the other side. You also, so we're gonna probably jump around lot during 239 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,720 this episode. I think that's just kind of the nature you mentioned in there. 240 00:17:04,759 --> 00:17:08,599 The Pippin ku Coach stuff, which I thought was really fascinating. I 241 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,640 can't remember if it was episode five or six, but you know, Pipping 242 00:17:14,759 --> 00:17:19,519 is obviously really upset with the fact that Kraus is not only negotiating with Tony 243 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:22,319 kup coach. They said that Kraus called him the future of the organization, 244 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:26,519 right, I think they took offense to that. And one thing that I've 245 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:33,359 learned in this documentary that I didn't know beforehand is everybody talks about the vindictiveness 246 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,240 and the competitiveness of Michael Jordan, it seems like Scottie Pippen had it every 247 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:41,480 bit as much as he did. And maybe that's, you know, one 248 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,319 of the factors that drives him to win six titles. It's on top of 249 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,200 this kup coach stuff that we just learned in these episodes, he's got, 250 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,680 you know, sitting out the beginning of the ninety seven ninety eight season, 251 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:56,400 which they've already touched on the trade demand. He had a very very serious 252 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,039 competitive streak in him too, and I just I don't think it's gets brought 253 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,799 up nearly as much as Jordan's does. Yeah, I mean that's a good 254 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:07,240 point as one. I'm sure that his contract situation didn't help, and again, 255 00:18:07,279 --> 00:18:11,039 I know he signed the seven year, eighteen million dollar deal, but 256 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:17,640 that overarching like resentment I think definitely probably contributed because it almost feels like he 257 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,400 has this competitive edge against his own organization where you don't really hear about how 258 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:27,119 he necessarily approached it towards opposing teams. You mentioned, so this is related 259 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,440 to Kuk coach, and so that the ninety two Dream Team stuff. There 260 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,799 were a few things that stood out to me, and I think it begins 261 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:38,240 with Isaiah Thomas, and so MJ had this to say. I immediately wrote 262 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:42,400 this quote down when he said it. He said, I respect Isaiah Thomas's 263 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,559 talent. To me, the best point guard of all time is Magic Johnson, 264 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:49,319 and right behind him is Isaiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate 265 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,480 him, I respect his game. Two things. One I immediately thought, 266 00:18:53,519 --> 00:18:56,200 I don't know if you've ever done P ninety X, but I immediately thought 267 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,920 of Tony Horton saying I hate but I love it. That's what I mean. 268 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:04,960 He came to mind when when I heard this quote. Number Two, 269 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,839 it seemed Jordan denies keeping him off the ninety two Dream Team, even though 270 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:14,720 he clearly asked, I think Rod Thorne, who was putting it together at 271 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:17,960 the time, whether he was going to be on it, and Rod Thor's 272 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,960 basically whoever you are asking about it's not going to be on it. I 273 00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:26,680 I really don't feel sympathy for Isaiah Thomas, and I'm not trying to shoot 274 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,279 on him because it seems like he had some beef with other players on this 275 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,440 roster, definitely with I think both Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson. If I'm 276 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,279 not mistaken somebody, I think it might be Wilbon talks about that too in 277 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:41,160 the documentary. Yeah, so that doesn't make me feel bad. I also 278 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,079 don't look at the players on the roster and say, you know what, 279 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,359 you should have taken John Stockton off Forrisaiah Thomas. You should have taken Clyde 280 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,960 Drexeler off Risaiah Thomas. Now, if you came to me and said you 281 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,119 wanted to take if you didn't really care about positions and you want to take 282 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,559 Christian Latner off Frisaiah Thomas, that to me makes sense. I don't know 283 00:19:59,559 --> 00:20:02,759 if they he did to have a college player or something because he was coming 284 00:20:02,759 --> 00:20:04,519 to the NBA at that point, was he not? That was right before 285 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:08,039 his first season in the league. Maybe I'm wrong. I was two years 286 00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:12,480 old at the time, so you'll have to forgive me. But or if 287 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,680 you wanted to take I'm looking at the roster right now. Yeah, Chris 288 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,839 mullinoff and put Isaiah Thomson, Like, I totally understand that. But if 289 00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:25,160 his relationship with these with many of these players, many of them, is 290 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,839 the reason that he didn't make the team, I honestly don't feel bad because 291 00:20:29,839 --> 00:20:33,920 it's you. You were trying. The whole point of assembling this superstar roster 292 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:37,759 was to make sure that the United States made this statement globally, and if 293 00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:42,200 having Isaiah Thomas might have risked risked the chemistry at all just because he was 294 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:47,000 again had it wasn't just problems with some of the players, it was the 295 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:51,079 probably would you say, the three best players on the roster Johnson, Bird 296 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:55,799 and Jordan Yeah, yeah, like that. I honestly don't feel sympathy. 297 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,079 Is he maybe underrated historically? I would listen to a case for that, 298 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,480 and he was definitely exceptional. It does feel like his titles sort of do 299 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,119 get lost to historical anecdotes sometimes, and then because of what Detroit's identity was, 300 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,160 I don't think people necessarily appreciate how good he was offensively on the court. 301 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:17,720 But I really Isaiah Thomas doesn't come off looking like throughout this whole story, 302 00:21:17,839 --> 00:21:22,519 he doesn't come off looking like a sympathetic figure to me personally, No, 303 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,480 and I don't. I don't think they're trying to make him look sympathetic. 304 00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:30,559 I agree with you wholeheartedly, and except for I actually think there's a 305 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:37,960 case that he's overrated. Oh let's say that. Yeah, there's often an 306 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:42,079 implication that because they're both point guards, that Isaiah Thomas should have been on 307 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:47,839 the team over John Stockton. But statistically, he honestly was not close to 308 00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:53,799 Stockton for the three seasons immediately preceding the Olympics. I mean, it's seventeen 309 00:21:53,839 --> 00:21:59,680 points, fourteen assists, three steals per seventy five possessions for Stockton with a 310 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:07,160 plea seven relative true shooting percentage compared to nineteen and nine and two steals for 311 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:14,359 Thomas with a minus three relative true shooting percentage. There's a fairly significant gap 312 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,440 statistically between them. Now. Of course, Isaiah Thomas wins titles in eighty 313 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,319 nine and ninety, and like you said, those have kind of gotten lost 314 00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:25,200 to history, and you get the sense from a lot of these Pistons guys 315 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,720 that they're bitter about that, and they probably should be there. There aren't 316 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:33,079 a ton of people who've repeated as NBA champions, So they probably have a 317 00:22:33,079 --> 00:22:37,960 little bit of a right to be, but they're they're just sort of sandwiched 318 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:44,039 in sort of a basketball history no man's land. It's it's as the Celtics 319 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,200 and Lakers, you know, eighties dynasties are waning, and it's before Michael 320 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:56,480 Jordan really takes over the league, and their biggest their biggest claim to NBA 321 00:22:56,599 --> 00:23:00,640 history might be that they refined Jordan more than their titles. Even I think 322 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,920 they're more known for that as being like the last hurdle that Jordan got over, 323 00:23:06,599 --> 00:23:10,039 than they are for winning the championships. So maybe they have a right 324 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:15,000 to be bitter. But as far as Isaiah Thomas goes and in the bitterness 325 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,200 of being locked up in nineteen ninety two team, I'm with you. I 326 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,839 don't. I don't think there's a real strong argument that he should have been 327 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:25,680 on there, even from a basketball sense. Yeah, there's like I think 328 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,880 there were only three players that you could begin to talk about maybe he should 329 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,640 have been in over And I don't know how it works out with positions. 330 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,119 Then when you're looking at point guards specifically, No, you shouldn't be on 331 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,279 there. Over definitely not magic. Johnson probably wouldn't have taken him over John 332 00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:41,759 Stockton either. If you were looking at a Clyde Drexler, a Christian Lightner, 333 00:23:41,799 --> 00:23:44,559 or a Chris Mullen, then maybe, but I don't know how they 334 00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:48,559 were what they were looking. Look at Drexler's numbers in those years, like 335 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:52,240 I WO, yeah, he always seemed like someone that might have coasted a 336 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,599 little too much on athleticism. But if nothing else, I'd say, Ah 337 00:23:55,599 --> 00:24:00,279 Thomas was just such a good passer compared to Drexler, I could I think 338 00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:03,319 there's a case there if you're talking about like Mullin, Latner and drex are 339 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,920 the only three players that I could imagine having an argument that he should have 340 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,839 made this roster over Not that this is I mean, this isn't. This 341 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:18,240 doesn't determine the issue. But Isaiah Thomas was thirty fifth in box plus minus 342 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:23,519 over the three seasons right before the Olympics. And again that's not that's just 343 00:24:23,599 --> 00:24:30,480 one number. But Chris Mullen was sixteenth, Patrick Ewing was fourteenth, Mark 344 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:34,759 Price tenth. Who who's I mean Christian Lightner is not going to be on 345 00:24:34,799 --> 00:24:37,799 here because he wasn't in the NBA. Yet that's I think you've hit on 346 00:24:37,839 --> 00:24:42,000 the obvious one. Were you just throwing Mark Price in there for fun? 347 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,880 Yeah, yeah, I'm just looking at American players who are ahead of him, 348 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,519 Horse Grant, Kevin Kale. Anyway, I don't ahead I'm with you. 349 00:24:52,559 --> 00:24:56,839 I don't think he's a sympathetic figure. I will say I wish that 350 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,079 we could have I don't know how you could have seen more, but I 351 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,839 loved the stuff about that scrimmage they had where everyone was mad at each other. 352 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,400 It was like Jordan versus Magic. I would have loved to have seen 353 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,599 the full footage of that or here the trash talking that was going on, 354 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,759 and it was so it was such a flex when they were talking about their 355 00:25:15,799 --> 00:25:21,319 favorite moments from that ninety two dream team was playing each other. It wasn't 356 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:25,920 competing against other teams, it was playing each other. Those those practices. 357 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,839 I think Magic even said in this one of these episodes that that was some 358 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,519 of the best basketball that's ever been played, was those guys. And when 359 00:25:34,519 --> 00:25:40,839 you look back on that roster, it really is with the exception of I 360 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,319 guess Laterner, other than that, it's all like Hall of Fame, all 361 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,680 time great legendary players. It was an incredible collection of talent. 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I don't know 380 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,440 that he ever reached you know, when you come over when you're twenty age 381 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,559 twenty five season, that's certainly going to cut down your prime. He still 382 00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:11,920 played it. I think it was like twelve years in the NBA, But 383 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,000 I don't know that we ever got to see peak. Tony Kuk Coach won 384 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,799 because of how old he was when he came over. But two, he 385 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,119 was never really given the runway to just like I think he probably could have 386 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,480 shouldered more volume. You know, he peeks in the ninety ninety nine season 387 00:27:27,519 --> 00:27:32,839 when he's not with Scottie or Jordan Any averages almost nineteen points a game, 388 00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:37,440 five point three assists, not the not the highest true shooting percentage, but 389 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,920 he hit forty five percent of his two's got to the line at you know, 390 00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:47,440 a lower clip. Just a really smart player and he's someone that I 391 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,839 wish we could see he would definitely be a four or maybe a five in 392 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:56,359 this year's NBA, this current NBA, I think, But I do believe 393 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,279 that he would be really good in today's game. And I also believe there 394 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:02,759 are a ton of players from recent history, let's say, that I'd love 395 00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:06,640 to see in the current league, and he's definitely among the top ones for 396 00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:10,680 me. Yeah, he was. He was definitely a guy that was a 397 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,759 little bit ahead of his time, sort of a point forward in a lot 398 00:28:14,799 --> 00:28:18,440 of ways, similar to Scotty in terms of the passing, more of an 399 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,680 outside shooter. Like he said, his numbers drop off when he takes over 400 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,440 the team, at least percentage wise in nineteen ninety eight ninety nine, but 401 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,880 you did get a glimpse of his ability to carry a team. It was 402 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:37,119 a terrible Bowls team that was always going to happen when Jordan and Pippin left. 403 00:28:37,559 --> 00:28:40,519 But you're right, he was. He was really fascinating. I've had 404 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,119 a chance to write about him a couple of times here during the hiatus because 405 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,039 Bleacher Reports had me doing a lot of historical stuff, and one of the 406 00:28:49,039 --> 00:28:55,160 ones they had me do was the best trios of all time, And I 407 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,160 wound up going with Jordan Pippin and Kuk coach, and a lot of people 408 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,400 were understandably upset about that. They thought it should have been Jordan Pippen and 409 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,200 Rodman. And I even think there's there might be a better argument for Jordan 410 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:10,720 Pippen and Horace Grant over Rodman. But I went with Kup coach because of, 411 00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:14,559 you know, the methodology that I used. He actually had the best 412 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,680 numbers of any other number three that Jordan and Pippin played with. Just a 413 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:26,559 really solid number three. Passed the ball, rebounded, did a little bit 414 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:30,720 of everything, shot threes, really solid player. And I still am kind 415 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:34,160 of waiting for a little bit more time given to Tony Kuk coach. I 416 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,119 think this was our first real exposure to him. But this is this is 417 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,079 a look at him as a member of the Croatian national team. I want 418 00:29:41,119 --> 00:29:44,759 some I want a little bit of detail about what he was like with the 419 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:49,160 Bulls. Did you have? I can't remember who it was who had Steve 420 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,319 Kerr on their podcast recently, it was either Zach Well or Bill Simmons, 421 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:56,640 but he said that he's kind of embarrassed that he's on all the promo posters. 422 00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:02,599 Yeah, and Tony kuk Coach isn't, and he just raved about what 423 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,680 a great player Tony kuk Coach was. So hopefully, I mean, we've 424 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,240 still got four more episodes to get into it and then and it seems like 425 00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,440 their format is basically, let's spend ten minutes on this and then ten minutes 426 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,680 on this. So hopefully eventually he'll get his you know, ten minutes. 427 00:30:15,759 --> 00:30:18,839 This is what Tony kuk Coach was on these you know, second three peat 428 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,799 balls. I'm assuming we'll get there, but I guess you really never know 429 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,799 what direction this documentary is gonna take. The thing that I was kind of 430 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,720 surprised at and I don't know if this was maybe they'd never planned to do 431 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,799 it, or maybe they'd planned to do more on it, but then Kobe 432 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,960 died in that helicopter crash. I thought if they were going to spend time 433 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,359 on the Jordan Kobe relationship, that they would have spent more time on it 434 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,839 they were. I thought there were a few good quotes. The episode five 435 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,240 opens with uh there at the ninety eight All Star Game and MJ's saying to 436 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:53,079 the locker room that he's in that little Laker boy is gonna take everybody in 437 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,720 one on one. He doesn't let the game come to him. He just 438 00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:00,240 goes out and take it. H that was like that hit me. That 439 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:03,759 was great, and then Kobe saying, I wrote this one down as well. 440 00:31:04,119 --> 00:31:07,680 He's like my big brother. I truly hate having discussions about who would 441 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,920 win one on one. What you get for me is from him. I 442 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,039 don't get five championships without him. And I liked that he phrased it that 443 00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:18,240 way because there's not a Kobe mj debate. If you want to talk about 444 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:23,200 Kobe being the closest fac simile two Michael Jordan that we've seen, I'll listen 445 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,880 to it, just because the moves were so similar. You look at the 446 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,759 mentality on the court with their approach to winning. I totally get that, 447 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,839 but they're you know, one person makes an account to continuously spam you messages 448 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,160 about how Kobe was better than Michael Jordan or how his peak was better than 449 00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,759 Michael Jordan's and it wasn't. And I think the fact that there are people 450 00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:45,160 that maybe still want to have that debate or talk about it, and I 451 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:52,200 do think they're they're diminishing in number. It takes away from what that relationship 452 00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:56,160 apparently was like we don't hear enough about that. We saw Jordan talking at 453 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,279 Kobe's memorial and that was sort of a great peak behind the curtain, But 454 00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:04,160 it would be cooler to spend more time on with this documentary, spend a 455 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,240 little bit of time. I was just the relationship, how Jordan had told 456 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:09,880 him, if you need anything or have any questions, just just reach out 457 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,039 to me, and how they sort of afford that relationship, because that's the 458 00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:17,559 actual cool part about their link to me, and of course how similar they're 459 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:22,640 in aesthetics there their games were, and I hate that there's still even a 460 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,599 slight debate because there really shouldn't be about whether Kobe is on Michael Jordan's level. 461 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,680 He was, you know, you ranked him. He's one of the 462 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,160 all time greatest players, Kobe Bryant, but Michael Jordan's just just better. 463 00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:37,519 And that's not trying to spend some sort of agenda here. I just I'm 464 00:32:37,519 --> 00:32:43,160 more appreciating that the little time that this documentary spent on their relationship beyond that, 465 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,839 and I wish we could have seen more. Aesthetics is the exact word 466 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,680 that I used in the takeaways article that I wrote for bleacher Report on this 467 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:59,799 episode. Statistically, it's honestly not all that close between Jordan and Kobe. 468 00:32:59,799 --> 00:33:05,720 But I love that YouTube clip and I think I hyper linked to it in 469 00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:08,839 the right up where it just shows back to back Jordan moves and Kobe moves 470 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:13,400 like he like like Jordan. Like Kobe himself said, you already gave the 471 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,480 quote, what you got from me is from him. He clearly patterned his 472 00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:22,400 game after him, and I don't think even if the numbers aren't there, 473 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:27,799 I don't I don't know if we'll ever see somebody who just looks like Jordan 474 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,799 the way that he plays like Kobe did. So, so yeah, I 475 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:34,480 think aesthetics is the perfect word for that. And believe it or not, 476 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:38,759 I threw that in the takeaways too. He's the closest thing, and it's 477 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:45,079 it's almost like he's the he's the aesthetically I'm gonna say that word one more 478 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:49,680 time, the successor to Jordan, because he's he's he's not quite there statistically, 479 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,440 but like you said, the way they put it was awesome. How 480 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,240 it was a brotherly relationship, you know, how Jordan was was kind of 481 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,599 talking crap about him to the other Eastern Conference All Stars. But then Kobe 482 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:04,319 sit after the after the game, he came up to me and said, 483 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,680 you know, anytime you need anything, let me know. I think he 484 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,719 probably saw a little bit of himself and Kobe Bryant and then thought, you 485 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,599 know, I can impart my wisdom to this kid, and it sounds like 486 00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,880 he did so that. I think that stuff of or that part of the 487 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,519 documentary was cool. Like you and I said before we started recording, it 488 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,199 would have been nice to maybe get a little bit more of that, but 489 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,119 maybe they just maybe they didn't have a chance, like you said before we 490 00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:34,280 were recording to talk to Kobe enough, But that that was that was a 491 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,679 really interesting window into that dynamic and that relationship. Yeah, the other thing 492 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:44,559 about Kobe is that it seems like because you don't really you don't really hear 493 00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:49,400 about how people pattern their games after Jordan aside from Kobe, I feel like, 494 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,360 you know, I'm talking about in that era, and a lot of 495 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,840 that just has to do with the access you had to Kobe during his prime, 496 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,000 just because media was a different beast then. He wasn't at the high 497 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,239 eight of social media. But I feel like, you know, YouTube clips 498 00:35:02,639 --> 00:35:07,159 of those are just those were prevalent for players who are even coming into the 499 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,519 NBA. Now you talk about you know, guys who liked Demard Rozen love 500 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:15,000 him or Russell Westbrook love him. They're still Trey Young is in love with 501 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:17,239 Kobe Bryant, and so I think just the way that his brand took on 502 00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:22,719 a different sort of life because of the time that he hit his prime on 503 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,880 the basketball court, I think that contributes to some of what I'll call it 504 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,320 deluded takes about where he actually belongs to the pantheon of NBA history, one 505 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,079 of the most and I'm talking just about basketball here, one of the most 506 00:35:34,199 --> 00:35:37,519 iconic players on the court. But I if Michael Jordan had the type of 507 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,880 i'm gonna say exposure or accessibility that Kobe did to the masses, because it 508 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,480 does seem like Jordan was a pretty accessible superstar when you're talking about reporters. 509 00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:51,320 He feeled the questions about his future routinely, particularly during that ninety seven ninety 510 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,400 eight season. But the I don't even I guess the momentum behind it that 511 00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:59,760 Kobe not that he I don't want to say enjoyed, like he didn't earn 512 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,880 it, just different times and so maybe there would be that similar talk about 513 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,960 Jordan if there you know he was he came up during the or was at 514 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:15,239 any point in his prime during the YouTube erew. Yeah, I'm with all 515 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:21,800 of that, so totally agree. What are some other takeaways that we had 516 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,760 on this particular episode I've got I've got a little handy list here if you 517 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,159 just want to run through them. Yeah, if you want to talk about 518 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:32,159 the that we discussed before the pod, I think it's about how Jordan would 519 00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:37,320 be in today's game. And you pointed to the game against Clyde Drexler where 520 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,639 he just decided that he was going to make every three in the world. 521 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,679 Yeah, that was really interesting to me because you've got Marv Albert or a 522 00:36:45,679 --> 00:36:50,360 clip of Marv Albert right before game one saying that they statistically mirrored each other 523 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,880 in the regular season. And my first thought was, no way. You 524 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:58,800 know, Jordan in the early nineties was ridiculous, and he was. But 525 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,639 I looked up the numbers and they're closer than I thought they would be. 526 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:07,360 It's still clearly Jordan as the better player. He led the league in box 527 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,039 post minus that season at nine point seven, and he averaged thirty points, 528 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:15,039 six rebounds, six assists, two steals in a block. It's just crazy 529 00:37:15,119 --> 00:37:19,280 numbers. But Drexer was third in the NBA in box PUS minus at eight 530 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,599 point seven, and he averaged twenty five points, seven rebounds, seven assists, 531 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,679 two steals in a block. I mean, he had a phenomenal season 532 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,440 two. But Jordan had a quote in the Dock he said Clyde was a 533 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,199 threat, but me being compared to him, I took offense to that. 534 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,480 And it sounds like there was a lot of people comparing the two heading into 535 00:37:39,519 --> 00:37:44,199 that series, and Magic Johnson says in the Dock that Jordan told him before 536 00:37:44,199 --> 00:37:45,280 the series that he was just going to go out and take it to this 537 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,280 guy, and that's exactly what he did. I think he had thirty some 538 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,239 points in that first half on top of the threes that he hit. This 539 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:57,719 is the famous shrug game that I think just about every NBA fan has seen 540 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,559 that image at some point of Jordan's shrugging after he hits I think the fifth 541 00:38:00,559 --> 00:38:06,480 three in the first half. This is a fascinating look at, like you 542 00:38:06,559 --> 00:38:09,199 said, what he could potentially be if he had come up in today's game 543 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,960 like he obviously would have added a three point shot. It already seems like 544 00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:15,679 he was a good We don't have numbers for this, it already seems like 545 00:38:15,679 --> 00:38:22,760 he was a good set three points just off the h Yeah, there's just 546 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,960 no doubt in my mind that he would have added that. But it's also 547 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:31,239 a look at just how he would sort of if they weren't already manufactured. 548 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:36,119 And I think this one was sort of manufactured by outside forces. It seems 549 00:38:36,119 --> 00:38:39,880 like Jordan had a knack for manufacturing things to be mad about and things to 550 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:45,719 compete against and to try and sort of take himself to another level. And 551 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,480 again in this case, the matchup was sort of manufactured by outside forces, 552 00:38:50,559 --> 00:38:53,760 and he just went out and destroyed Clyde Drexer in that series. Yeah, 553 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,719 that's odd Jordan. I would love to have seen him play today. I 554 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,360 don't know that there. I've seen this stuff on Twitter where it's like basically 555 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:04,039 the SpongeBob meme where people are making fun of other people who were saying Jordan 556 00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:07,599 couldn't have thrived in this era. I actually think it's probably the other way 557 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:09,440 around, is that I see more of today's stars wouldn't be as good and 558 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,519 I don't. I don't see anyone saying that Michael Jordan wouldn't have been great. 559 00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:17,599 Yeah. I just would have loved to have seen it. Yeah, 560 00:39:17,639 --> 00:39:22,800 I think you'd be phenomenal. Uh. What I also enjoyed from this is 561 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:28,440 they delve into the shoe stuff. As you mentioned, how Jordan wanted to 562 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,639 sign with Adidas or thought Adidas was colder than Nike, and the only reason 563 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,800 he basically went to Nike was because his mom and dad forced him to, 564 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:42,440 or at least Yeah. Yeah, that stuff was fascinating too, And I 565 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,039 think the biggest takeaway from me on that was his agent at the time, 566 00:39:46,119 --> 00:39:51,840 David Fall, said that New York or not New York, Nike had a 567 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,360 goal to sell three million dollars worth of Jordan's through the four year contract or 568 00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,639 through at the end of year four, however long the contract us. I 569 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:02,840 can't rememb but after four years the goal was three million. In year one 570 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:09,360 they moved one hundred and twenty six million dollars worth of air Jordan's. You 571 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,840 know, I don't even I don't even know. Yeah by what percentage that 572 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,920 defeats the goal, But it's just it's crazy. He was a cultural phenomenon. 573 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,159 And in that section they have got they have celebrities like Nas and Justin 574 00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:28,360 Timberlake and Spike Lee talking about how you know, basketball shoes were just basketball 575 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:32,960 shoes before Jordan came along. Now they're like a cultural symbol to this day. 576 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,360 I mean people who were even born after Jordan collect Michael Jordan's, people 577 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:45,239 who were born after his career ended. I should say his shoe has become 578 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:52,079 a cultural staple in America. It's it's just remarkable what he accomplished as a 579 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,519 not just as a basketball player, but like as as a marketing I don't 580 00:40:57,519 --> 00:41:02,519 know, I don't know if tool is the right word. He's just he's 581 00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:07,840 just sold merchandise in a way that I don't I don't know if anybody else 582 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,840 ever has no I would totally agree with you. There and him wearing the 583 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,760 Air Jordan ones in his last Masson Square Garden game, and then that was 584 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:22,519 funny. Then afterwards afterwards he's like, by halftime, my feet are bleeding, 585 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:23,880 but I'm having a good game. I don't want to take them off. 586 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,719 I couldn't take those shoes. But and then the game's over and he 587 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,360 says, I couldn't take the shoes off fast enough. When I took the 588 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,159 shoes off, my sock was soaked in blood. Oh, I don't know. 589 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,480 I side note. I don't understand how people played in some of the 590 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,679 shoes they did in earlier eras, especially a guy like Michael Jordan, Like 591 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,639 he was flying all over the place in those first couple of years and he 592 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:52,480 was playing in those Jordan ones. My dad played in college in the seventies, 593 00:41:52,519 --> 00:41:57,280 and that's back when they still wore cons and to this day his feet 594 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,960 like mangled. I don't I don't understand, So I always forget. You 595 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:07,440 had Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson dropping balls. That's so funny. Yeah, 596 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,840 that that was That was a good clip. I should have wrote down written 597 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:15,119 down Larry Bird's line at the end of that, something about how they made 598 00:42:15,119 --> 00:42:17,199 me the MVP or something like that, and that Johnson's like staring them right 599 00:42:17,199 --> 00:42:20,559 in the face. That's the other thing. You don't really see those commercials 600 00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:24,119 anymore where the stars are together, like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird just being 601 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:27,199 in the same commercial, or there's that. I don't know if you've ever 602 00:42:27,199 --> 00:42:30,719 seen Ken Griffey Junior and Don Mattingley, that baseball commercial the I Got It 603 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:35,360 where Ken Griffy Junior basically robs Don Maddenley of a home run by running across 604 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,400 the country to catch it. Like, you never really see anything like that 605 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,239 anymore, I think because everyone's probably more brand focused, where you know, 606 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,400 if you're Don Mattingley's people, it's like, well, we don't want it 607 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,840 to look like Ken Griffey Jr. Is better than Don Mattingley here. That 608 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:51,679 is that is interesting that those are just kind of gone. I never really 609 00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,639 thought about that until now I can't. That is the last one, like 610 00:42:53,679 --> 00:43:00,599 the street Ball where players are like dribbling the ball to the to the beat 611 00:43:00,639 --> 00:43:02,119 of a song and putting the ball in their shirt and stuff. That's the 612 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:06,559 last one I can remember where there was a bunch of NBA players in the 613 00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:08,000 same commercial. Yeah, even the duel ones, wasn't there? Was it 614 00:43:08,079 --> 00:43:13,880 a was it the Kevin Durant Dwayne Wade one where they're like functionally sleeping, 615 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,000 I guess, And so it's like they actually get dunked one by the other 616 00:43:16,039 --> 00:43:19,960 one. But that's not a bunch of people like an aside from it's mostly 617 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,199 you know, the remember the NBA Christmas Day one where they were dribbling to 618 00:43:23,199 --> 00:43:25,639 the beat or shooting to the beat of the Christmas song. It's like going 619 00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:30,679 to be pleasant stuff like that. So look at up, look at us, 620 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,159 old men yelling at clouds here right now, lamenting, lamenting a better 621 00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:37,639 commercial error. There were two other points that we wanted to discuss, the 622 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,079 first of which, for some reason, I'm blanking on right now. Oh, 623 00:43:42,119 --> 00:43:45,280 the gambling. They touched on the gambling issue. I wonder had he 624 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:52,400 gone to Atlantic City in today's NBA right before it was Game two against the 625 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,400 Knicks. I think it was the Eastern Conference vinyls right, unless I'm mistaken, 626 00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:59,159 would that have been It definitely would have been more covered. Would it 627 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:01,519 have been as big of a deal because it was. It was made out 628 00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:05,039 to be this huge deal. But I feel like everyone just knows that certain 629 00:44:05,159 --> 00:44:10,440 NBA players are party goers at this point, and so someone going to Atlantic 630 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,159 City maybe let's not even say the Atlantic City of today, because it's a 631 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,679 dumpster fire I would call it, basically, But someone going to Lancy wouldn't 632 00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,239 or something like that just wouldn't be a huge deal to me. I don't 633 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,400 think it would be a huge deal either. I think everybody would just kind 634 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,519 of be like, oh, okay, it doesn't Jordan say in the documentary 635 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:37,119 that he didn't get back night, Yeah, okay, til Jackson didn't care. 636 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,360 Yeah, And I thought, you know, it was interesting, Like 637 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,039 to me, the idea of a one point two million dollars debt to a 638 00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:52,000 golfing buddy that you're you know, betting on holes with that sounds insane. 639 00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:54,599 And that's what. I can't remember the guy's name, Richards, like more 640 00:44:54,639 --> 00:45:00,800 than a tenth of Scottie Pippins seventh year eighteen contract. Gosh, where is 641 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,639 he? I wrote his name down somewhere, I think, but I can't 642 00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:08,840 find it. Now. What do you think about the thought that when people 643 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:14,159 say that Michael Jordan didn't have a gambling problem, it wasn't a financial problem 644 00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:17,400 for him because he just had the disposable aim. That's whereas gambling might actually 645 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,599 be a problem for him. And I'm not sitting here trying to diagnose anyone. 646 00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:23,320 I want to make that clear. I'll never do that. My whole 647 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:28,239 thing is you just hear these stories about not him just playing cards on the 648 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,719 planes for huge amounts of money, but he would join like the one dollar 649 00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:35,920 card games and just be like super competitive in them, which I kind of 650 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,679 respect it, but it's also like maybe maybe there was something to that notion. 651 00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:45,280 He basically said that. They played an interview with him, and I 652 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,480 think it was Connie Chung, you know, back at the time where she 653 00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:50,719 asks him straight up, do you have a gamming problem? And he goes, 654 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,280 no, because I can stop gambling. I have a competition problem. 655 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:59,920 I have a competitive problem. And it obviously wasn't a problem for him on 656 00:46:00,039 --> 00:46:01,800 the floor because it led to six titles, but like you said, maybe 657 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,280 it did get him in a little bit of trouble here and there. But 658 00:46:06,679 --> 00:46:08,599 David Aldridge, it was another guy who talked about this and he said to 659 00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:13,679 Jordan, a ten thousand dollars bet is like a ten dollars bet to you 660 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:20,039 and me, right, So I think the way the documentary and I don't 661 00:46:20,039 --> 00:46:22,800 know if he'll get back into this later, but it was almost like they're 662 00:46:22,039 --> 00:46:27,079 the point they were trying to make was no, it wasn't a problem because 663 00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:30,079 he had the money. He never got to a point where, you know, 664 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,079 sharks were like threatening to break his leg or anything like that. He 665 00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:39,559 was fine. He paid off his gambling debts. It was just more of 666 00:46:39,639 --> 00:46:45,800 his insatiable hunger to win at everything. This is in one of these episodes, 667 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,440 it has him playing that game with the quarters with the security guy United 668 00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:52,239 Center, Like it looks like they're playing some kind of game where you just 669 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,719 toss a quarter from one end of the room to the other and you try 670 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,039 to see how close you can get to the wall without hitting it. Is 671 00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:00,239 that what it was? Because I was trying to figure it out, that's 672 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,239 the best answer I could come up with, but I couldn't. Like the 673 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,280 footage was a little grainy, But if that's what they were doing, that's 674 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,559 just absolutely crazy. So yeah, they're they're some game. They probably just 675 00:47:09,639 --> 00:47:14,239 made up on the spot one day and then they you know, it becomes 676 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,159 a deal with him in the security guards. But he's betting money on that, 677 00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:22,239 and so maybe maybe he's just wins so much he's got to raise the 678 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,079 stakes a little bit by by throwing a little bit of money at it. 679 00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:30,039 And in that same story that you alluded to where he goes to the one 680 00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:34,199 dollar card game at the front of the plane, John Paxson asks him, 681 00:47:34,199 --> 00:47:35,880 why do you why do you want to play in this game? We're just 682 00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:37,719 doing a dollar a hind and he says, because I want your money in 683 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:49,280 my pocket. They're they're just a competitive streak in him that's almost unhealthybody will 684 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,679 ever top it? No, I don't, And I think he came out 685 00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:55,960 and said that people were going to hate him more after this documentary unless there's 686 00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,519 some like really fucking crazy stuff in the final four episodes. This has made 687 00:48:01,519 --> 00:48:06,599 me like Michael Jordan Moore for the most part, just running through it. 688 00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:09,039 And the other thing that I can appreciate and maybe is probably why I don't 689 00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:14,599 know how he would handle this. Twenty four seven, three sixty five you 690 00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:17,800 have to be on at all times. Era was at the end where you 691 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:23,519 could tell that he's clearly tired of fame, and he even says when he's 692 00:48:23,519 --> 00:48:28,760 talking about possibly not come like possibly leaving the Bulls after the ninety eight season, 693 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,159 which he does. Granted we now can listen to this knowing in hindsight 694 00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:36,039 that he played for the Wizards for two seasons. But he says, I 695 00:48:36,079 --> 00:48:38,000 hear a lot of people say, well, you're gonna miss it, and 696 00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:40,119 he said, I'm not sure if I'm gonna miss it. I don't think 697 00:48:40,119 --> 00:48:43,880 I'm gonna miss it, and you could just tell. He even said that 698 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,440 being like Mike is is really hard, and that was the last thing for 699 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,360 me. I don't know what other note you've have written down that I just 700 00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:54,159 found fascinating. Was even at that time where I would say that he could 701 00:48:54,199 --> 00:48:58,679 probably be a little bit more closed off than the stars of today, that 702 00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,599 yeah, maybe he's thisronger brand than any of them were. You talk about 703 00:49:01,599 --> 00:49:06,960 the mobs outside the hotel rooms, and maybe people aren't as likely to do 704 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,440 that now because they feel like they have more access via via the internet or 705 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,360 something. And I don't know how accessible stars are now in terms of these 706 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,639 live autographs. It seems like a lot of them are done in scores and 707 00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:22,199 then they get sent out. But to be so fatigued from all of that 708 00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:27,320 attention, from actually being Michael Jordan, it made me appreciate, and as 709 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,679 someone who thinks he already appreciates this, but made me appreciate more of the 710 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:36,199 burden that today's biggest names really carry because now they're dealing with the social media 711 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,960 scrutiny. And I don't want to say that Michael Jordan was innoculated from negative 712 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:44,280 coverage because that's certainly not the case. The Jordan rules was touched upon it 713 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,639 in these episodes, as we just talked about the gambling stuff, but to 714 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,960 have to deal with the constant voices of people who in essence don't matter, 715 00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:55,800 like let's say, like you and mat who aren't on the ground on a 716 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,880 day to day basis, and there are people who are going to be less 717 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:04,159 legitimate than you and I. You're just these fans that maybe just aren't fans 718 00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:07,480 of the players said team, so they're going to chime in with this criticism 719 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:12,320 on social media. You have the jokes that get fired off on social media, 720 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,599 the captions to the pictures, which I actually think are funny, but 721 00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,719 being the subject of them, would you feel any different? And so it 722 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,440 really made me appreciate what players have to go through today more. But it 723 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,159 was also just something clearly I never realized at the time for Michael Jordan, 724 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:30,119 is how tired he was of being Michael Jordan and then how open, at 725 00:50:30,199 --> 00:50:36,559 least in some instances he was about that. Yeah, and it led him 726 00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:42,280 to do something that we haven't seen since maybe maybe I'm missing someone, but 727 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:47,800 just to take a year off and try another sport. He clearly was fatigued 728 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:53,000 with the whole everything that comes with being Michael Jordan, and I thought they 729 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:58,199 did a good job of showing that in these episodes. The only other thing 730 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,679 that I had, and I don't think we need to spend a ton of 731 00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:05,559 time on this, is just that that finals series with the Phoenix Suns. 732 00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,679 I remember. Maybe this is just because of the time that I grew up, 733 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,360 but I remember Charles Barkley as a Phoenix Sun, and I think he 734 00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,559 only played like four seasons there, but he did win the MVP that season, 735 00:51:17,679 --> 00:51:23,159 and he had a phenomenal finals against the Chicago Bowls and they lost. 736 00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:28,239 They won a couple of games, they lost the series in six. But 737 00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,079 I want one thought that I had while watching that, and this is, 738 00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:36,519 you know, not new, but there were just so many phenomenal, phenomenal 739 00:51:36,559 --> 00:51:43,599 players like Charles Barkley who just they just didn't have a shot at a title 740 00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,119 because they came up in the same time that Michael Jordan did. There. 741 00:51:46,159 --> 00:51:50,760 Their only chance was those was was the year that he took off to play 742 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,960 baseball. In the year after that, when the Houston Rockets won both of 743 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:57,320 them, you basically had a two year window if you were one of those 744 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,760 nineties legends, because other than that, it was just gonna be Jordan. 745 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:07,119 Yeah, that's yeah, that's insane to think about as well. This Uh 746 00:52:07,199 --> 00:52:10,639 I was talking to you before the podcast about how like this sort of made 747 00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:15,039 me appreciate a little bit more to how just good Charles Barkley was because you 748 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:16,079 talk about he, I feel like people forget Yeah, he didn't win a 749 00:52:16,159 --> 00:52:20,760 championship, but he was an MVP and it was someone that Jordan wanted to 750 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,599 make a statement against as well. And it also seems semi related to to 751 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,079 to what you said and to this in general, how the conversation was at 752 00:52:29,079 --> 00:52:32,360 one point that Michael Jordan, excuse me, couldn't win championships, like he 753 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:36,800 was just scoring points. That was more like episode four stuff. I know, 754 00:52:37,199 --> 00:52:42,119 but I couldn't even imagine talking about Michael Jordan in those terms. Yeah, 755 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,920 that he's you know, he's a he's a me first guy. He's 756 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,639 never gonna be on Bird and Magic's level. And we still do that stuff 757 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,760 with players today. There's Chris Paul's definitely don't know what happened with that, 758 00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,239 Yeah, for sure, I don't. I don't know if it's ever gonna 759 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,920 be more prevalent in any other sports than it is in basketball. But we 760 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:07,440 just we look at guys as non winners until they win a championship. It's 761 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:14,199 a really interesting phenomenon basketball. I was gonna say, is it probably because 762 00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:20,800 that basketball is perhaps the one sport where team sport where a singular player is 763 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,199 supposed to make that type of difference. And I don't necessarily agree that that's 764 00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:28,079 the case anymore because there's so much talent in the league, but I feel 765 00:53:28,079 --> 00:53:31,719 like that's maybe where that phenomena draws from. Yeah, And I think I 766 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:37,079 even do it subconsciously, like I can sit here and criticize that mentality. 767 00:53:37,159 --> 00:53:39,760 But I was, you know, watching the twenty nineteen twenty season play out, 768 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:45,760 and the Milwaukee Bucks are putting up, you know, historical team stats. 769 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,239 For a while, they had the biggest point differential in league history. 770 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,679 Their SRS is probably still like top ten all time. They've got Jana sent 771 00:53:53,840 --> 00:54:00,800 to Kupo, who's putting up numbers that are like legitimately unprecedented. And yet 772 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,920 in the back of my mind, I'm thinking I kind of like the Lakers 773 00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,480 of the Clippers to win the title because they've done it before. Lebron's done 774 00:54:07,519 --> 00:54:12,599 it before, and why has done it before? So I think you hit 775 00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:15,880 on something there. Though they're in basketball more than any other team sport, 776 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,039 major team sport, you know, uh, you know, football, baseball, 777 00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:22,679 Hockey maybe this way too, but I don't know hockey that well. 778 00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:29,119 But one individual player can change a lot. It's not as prevalent in the 779 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:30,800 NBA as it is in like high school or college. If you get one 780 00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:35,800 good high school player in Wyoming, you've got a chance to win the state 781 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,320 titles just because there's only five gays that five guys out there. So it 782 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:44,760 really is it To me, it's a really interesting dynamic that basketball brings and 783 00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:50,760 that comes along with basketball analysis real quick. Is there anything you're hoping still 784 00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:53,400 to see that the documentary is yet to cover. I'm really hoping they get 785 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:59,119 into the nitty gritty of his baseball decision. I think they will too, 786 00:54:59,159 --> 00:55:02,840 because I think they foreshadowed that at the end of episode six. They don't 787 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:07,760 actually say that he's about to go play baseball, but they talk you brought 788 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:09,599 it up. They talk about the fatigue and he's just kind of tired of 789 00:55:10,599 --> 00:55:14,639 all the fame and fortune or you know, fame and attention that comes with 790 00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,880 being Michael Jordan. So I bet that's coming. And I can't remember now 791 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,360 if you said this before we started recording or after, but I just would 792 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,960 like to see a little bit more detail on the actual team that this was 793 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:31,480 advertised to be about, the ninety seven ninety eight team. And again, 794 00:55:31,519 --> 00:55:35,760 they've got four more episodes, so there's I think, you know, still 795 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,639 decent amount of time to get into all the stuff that we want. But 796 00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:44,920 some of the snippets that they've given us in the first six episodes are really 797 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,360 interesting. You and I talked about this. I think right after the first 798 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:52,559 couple episodes. There's a lot more nitty gritty to this team that I just 799 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:57,159 don't remember. And it's because we were, again, we were pretty young 800 00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,159 at the time. Like I didn't care about the drama of the ninety seven 801 00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,239 ninety eight Bowls the way I would care about the drama of the team now, 802 00:56:05,079 --> 00:56:08,400 so I don't. I had no recollection of the Scottie Pippen stuff for 803 00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:14,760 the Jerry Kraus stuff, and so I think there's probably more to get into 804 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:20,000 there. And that's that's the season that they have this documentary crew following around, 805 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,760 so you think there's tons of footage, so hopefully we get a little 806 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,800 bit more of that, and I'm assuming there's gonna be more Steve Kerr. 807 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,840 I'm not lamenting if there's not, but if they were going to use him 808 00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,719 as part of the promo, I know he just has a recognizable face because 809 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,679 of what he's done as the Warriors coach as well. I'm just assuming there's 810 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,679 going to be more on him, and if there's not, then yes, 811 00:56:37,039 --> 00:56:39,280 they probably definitely should have used someone else as a face for the promotion. 812 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,119 But I do think, as we mentioned already, relative to the restrictions with 813 00:56:44,119 --> 00:56:46,119 which they're working with, where Michael Jordan probably had a sign off on everything, 814 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:52,000 I really have enjoyed this and same here, especially because there's there's nothing 815 00:56:52,039 --> 00:56:54,079 else to watch. There's no live sports. You know, the NFL Draft 816 00:56:54,159 --> 00:56:58,039 is over, the w NBA Draft is over. We don't know when the 817 00:56:58,119 --> 00:57:00,280 NBA Draft is going to be because they're trying to see if they could finished 818 00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,400 their season. So I've definitely appreciated this documentary. Maybe I'd be a little 819 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,440 bit more critical of it if it was, you know, came out during 820 00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,400 a normal time where there wasn't a global pandemic going on and there were alternatives. 821 00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,719 But also, like we said, I do, I do think it's 822 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,840 fair to question the journalistic integrity of some of this, and specifically the coverage 823 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:21,480 of Jerry Krauss, But all in all, this has been highly enjoyable for 824 00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:23,880 me, and as someone who enjoys memes and these weird sound bites, it's 825 00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:30,159 been great. Yeah, I think if I had degrade the six episodes I've 826 00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:32,880 seen so far, I would definitely give it an A. I've I've thoroughly 827 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,079 enjoyed what I've seen so far, and it'll be really interesting to see how 828 00:57:37,159 --> 00:57:39,599 it resolves. Like it's kind of crazy, we're already halfway through it. 829 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:45,199 Yeah, and it's it's probably easier for people like us to enjoy it without 830 00:57:45,519 --> 00:57:49,800 you know, maybe this hint of cynicism because we so much of this stuff 831 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:51,880 is I don't want to say it's like we knew about it, but like 832 00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,960 we're kind of understanding how ridiculous it was, just because we weren't maybe fully 833 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,079 old enough to appreciate it. Then. I know you said these were like 834 00:57:59,119 --> 00:58:01,320 the first ninety seven and ninety eight were like the ninety six ninety seven, 835 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,719 whatever was were the first two seasons that you really sort of zoned in. 836 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,199 But to just be older and be an actual adult rather than you know, 837 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,599 a pre teen or someone who wasn't even eight years old or something at this 838 00:58:12,679 --> 00:58:16,360 point is I think it's easier for at least for me, So I always 839 00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,320 speak for myself, it's easier for me to just appreciate it and enjoy it 840 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:23,800 because it's it's so fascinating and there's just this level of comprehension about this Bulls 841 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,159 team, about Jordan, about his teammates that I clearly didn't have before. 842 00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:36,559 Yeah, I'm with you, and I just realized I'm the one who closes. 843 00:58:36,719 --> 00:58:43,360 That's how long? Wow wow wow. As always, we encourage you 844 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,440 to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. Like Dan said, there's 845 00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:51,320 a there's been a cool ongoing series with him and Adam ranking the top ten 846 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:55,800 players for each franchise over the last decade. Those have been fun to listen 847 00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:59,199 to, So if you haven't been catching those, make sure you are and 848 00:58:59,239 --> 00:59:01,960 tell friends and family to catch those as well. We'll try to be a 849 00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,360 little bit more regular. I'll try to be a little more right, more 850 00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,760 regular. I shouldn't throw Dan into that. He's been great until next time. 851 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:15,840 We leave you with the shout out to Beno Udri, Kyle Anderson and 852 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:23,639 let me think here Tony Kuk Coach. Get really into your favorite shows and 853 00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:28,000 movies all in one place with Flex, a four KSE streaming box you get 854 00:59:28,039 --> 00:59:31,079 free with Exfinity Internet and to get Peacock Premium at no additional cost. Learn 855 00:59:31,079 --> 00:59:36,440 more at exfinity dot com slash Flex Restrictions apply. Requires postpaid Exfinity Internet excluding 856 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:37,920 Internet essentials. One device included