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Thanks for listening onto the show. Hey, Hi, Hello, Howdy
Hardwood Knocks listeners, I am dam Valley coming at you with my super duper
incredibly esteems awesometimes awesome, fantabulous spectaculario. I almost forgot how to do this
intro because he's been on like a two month hiatus. Co host Andrew D.
Bailey, We're gonna talk some last dance takeaways and try and avoid it
being a recap for episodes five and six that we saw on Sunday night,
and just try and get in a little bit deeper to a lot of the
takeaways and fun anecdotes from it. First, though, I would just like
to remind you to continue rating, reviewing, subscribing to Hardwood Knox on iTunes.
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for all the algorithms and seo stuff, ratings and reviews on the iTunes page,
and of course subscriptions. Make sure you're downloading all of our episodes.
Please, please, pretty please, Let's try and bury the one star review
that had to do with Kyrie Irving that I don't even think was necessarily commenting
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Remember we have the historical player rankings series up where we're ranking the top
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listen to all those we are up to. As of this recording, The
Dallas Mavericks the Pistons will be be dropping soon shout out lastly, but not
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You will be hearing from them shortly, so be sure to plug in
those promo CODs. That that's another great way to help support the podcast with
all the housekeeping the ones out of the way, I ask, for the
first time in quite some time, Andy, how are you doing. I'm
doing pretty well. It has been a long time. Apologies to you and
the listeners, but as you just mentioned, you and Adam have been up
to great content producing in my absence. With the Top ten Players series has
been fun to listen to. I think it was maybe the day after the
season shut down, I sent out a mailbag tweet. I have yet to
answer any of those questions, so I would draw any attention to that.
Apologies to those people who ask questions. Maybe I'll go back in there one
of these days see if there's anything that's still relevant and provide some answers on
those. But yeah, it's it's been a strange, bizarre time with no
live sports, but thank goodness we've got the Last Dance to kind of keep
us occupied here right The one thing I'm worry about is now that we're more
than halfway through, like you're gonna start having people since the end. We
only have four episodes, two more weeks left. They really positive have made
it like a twenty part documentary or something just to keep it rolling. Speaking
of questions, though, before we get into episodes five and six, we
did have one question from the Last Pot Again. If you want to ask
any questions about what we think about the Last Dance or anything related to it,
you can hit either of us up on Twitter or the hardware Knock Twitter,
DMUs whatever. We won't answer them on the following part pod. We
only have one this week. It comes from Mark McClure at Mark McClure seven.
He asked, what do you not sure if you could chat though,
any influence Dennis Rodman has had on Draymond Green. I phrase that question,
Paul. He wants, so if we think any if Dennis Rodman, if
any had any influence on Draymond Green, I'll throw it to you. I
think I will say to start off, I do think they're probably two of
the most versatile defenders in history, but I feel like their games were pretty
like there's a stark contrast between the way that they play and their specialties,
particularly on offense. Yeah, I don't know if influence would be the word
that I would use, because I do think their games are drastically different.
They both, like you said, have the ability to guard a bunch of
different positions. So maybe he was influenced by Rodman a bit in that regard.
But I think I think one of Draymond's biggest strengths is the playmaking and
the fact that he was functionally the point guard in a lot of possessions for
the Dynasty Warriors, or at least what we what we used to consider a
point guard, handling the ball, making great reads, surveying the floor.
That's something that Dennis Rodman never even came close to Draymond green On was was
the playmaking and I think just the general offensive ability there was even that season
I think it was twenty fifteen sixteen when they won seventy three games and Curry
had the best offensive season ever. Draymond had like a near sixty true shooting
percentage, and I kind of want to check myself just to be sure.
I think he shot close to forty percent from three, and it seems now
in hindsight that that season was an outlier, but he just he had a
more much more well rounded offensive game than Dennis Redmond is. And just to
clarify, fourteen points a game that season, thirty eight point eight percent from
three and let's see fifty eight point seven true shooting. Just a great offensive
season for him. Now, on the other side of the equation, Draymond
isn't in the same universe as Rodman as a rebounder. When you look at
Dennis Redmond's Basketball Reference page, and the rebounding numbers are just absurd, especially
when you factor in how big he was. They're not dissimilar in size,
So for Rodman to be able to get seventeen eighteen rebounds a game in an
era that was dominated by guys like Patrick Ewing and Hakim Elaijah Want and all
these other great centers that we just think of as legends now David Robinson's another
one. For him to be the best rebounder in that era is just crazy,
And it's been fun to watch little snippets of him in game action during
this documentary because you see some of the you see some of the skill that
went into rebounding for him because he was so much smaller. He obviously he
had a physical disadvantage against a lot of guys on the boards, but he
was so good at reading angles tipping the ball to himself. I loved that.
I think it was an episode two, that little part where he talks
about just you know, going to the gym and having friends to shoot the
ball and he could see how the ball came off the rim. There was
so much to rebounding with him. So I think there are drastically different players.
I've dragged this question out for quite a bit. It was a good
one, but yeah, yeah, I don't really have anything to add there.
There's the again, maybe similar defensive versatility. I think he could probably,
but you know, I never I won't say never, but also young
when Dennis Roman was playing, So I don't even I hesitate to say that
Draymond Green was more versatile or perhaps the better team defender. But there's that,
uh you know, there's video of Dennis Robmin guarding Magic Johnson, so
he was right up there as well. Was like he said, what they
did on offense was just it was a lot different. Could you imagine Dennis
Rodman doing some of the similar things on offense today? Maybe in terms of
setting screens and go into the basket when the Warriors allowed Draymond Green, Draymond
Green to do that, But other than that, I don't envision him as
someone who would bring the ball up or or anything like that. You know,
if he came up in this era, maybe potentially he has different coaching
and different you know people that say, here, dribble the wall up and
he works on those things. But it is it's somewhat difficult to imagine attention
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mentioned that you were young when this has happened. I think we've had this
conversation before. But I was born in eighty six. So the ninety eight
team, really the ninety six, ninety seventeen and the ninety seven ninety eight
team, those are some of my first memories of like really being invested in
NBA basketball. Is that around the same age for you? So I was
born in eighty nine, and I would probably say it was it was like
probably the season after this, like the first season that I remember vividly being
invested in. Is that lockout campaign where it was Nixon spits the amazing that
you remained a steadfast fan of the NBA if you came in right during the
Jordan vacuum. Well, I was still like I was still I just didn't
understand it as well, like before I became like this, really like nuanced
an invested fan, I would say, because I remember the ninety seven ninety
eight Bulls team, but I wasn't old enough, nearly old enough to appreciate
the finality of what was happening. And that was I said this after episodes
one and two, just the openness with which everyone knew that this was the
end and that the Bulls were shitting on Jerry Krause, Yeah, it's so
bizarre. We talked about how we have so much more access to these players
and teams now, and we do, but I really feel like we don't
have the candor that was delivered back then. And you even just look at
you know, I don't even know if you've noticed some of the media scrumbs
around Michael Jordan and this. They're so much smaller than they would be today,
and so we've probably lost with the extra access, we've probably lost some
of the candidness, which is weird to think about. But sort of speaking
on that note, this has been I wouldn't say it was a prevailing theme
in episodes five and six, but throughout this documentary, the coverage of Jerry
Krauss, and these past two episodes, they didn't really focus on him too
much, even though, as you mentioned before, we hopped on there was
the pot shot that Jordan threw at him, saying this smoky a cigar would
stunt his growth. And then what I really took away from it is I
can't remember if it was after it was after one of the titles. It
was ninety two or ninety three. I think maybe it was the ninety one
title, Like I can't remember, but he they showed the clip of him
talking about, Yeah, the players are great, the coaches are great,
but it's the organization that wins championships. And I really believe that this is
one of the best organizations in the world. And so full disclosure, after
you know, the first two episodes, I was all about making jokes and
I'm not also about to sit here and defend Jerry Krauss. And I didn't
really know him. I understand what he had a sort of this scouting track
record, But the way that they're covering him throughout this is getting wildly uncomfortable.
And part of that is we don't have him here to provide a rebuke
because he's because he passed away, and so that clearly stinks. But just
like sort of the added jabs like that, you know, the Tony Kukach
storyline, that's definitely something we can discuss. How Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippin
made his life hell in the nineties and the first time I faced him in
the ninety two Olympics, just because they knew that he was Jerry Kraus's guy,
And yeah, like there's probably just this level of tact that Jerry Krauss
lacked throughout all this publicly closing the door. It seems I'm bringing back Phil
Jackson and that Michael Jordan would have to deal with it after this year,
even though it's been reported that you know, he was open and bringing everyone
back at one point, Like, yeah, that's that's not a great look.
But I'm even just more focused on like the smaller parts, like like
you mentioned, and I'm mentioning again the pot shot that Jordan threw at him,
putting that in the clip we look at it, think it was episode
four or three where he's on the plane dancing after a conference finals win.
I think I called it a finals win during the podcast I recorded solo and
then Scottie Pippins like, sit down, Jerry, sit down. And then,
like I said, this interview where you know, maybe it was taking
out of context, maybe it's flat out wrong with to just throw it in
there that he's talking about how organizations win championships without actually saying it's not the
players, but you've you've put it and portrayed it in a way where it
makes you feel like that's what he's saying, and in the moment too,
Like I bet, I bet if you had heard that quote live, you
that would have made complete sense. It sounds like something a general manager would
say about a team that just won a championship. But like you said,
the way that it's been phrased is that he's sort of discounting what the players
are doing, and he might not have meant it that way at the time.
But yeah, it's been it's been very very interesting to see how he's
been covered and there there's you know, like you said, he's not alive
to provide any kind of a rebuttal, but they could at least spend I
don't know, five minutes on some of the good things that he did.
I mean, he was the general manager for six championship teams. And yeah,
it's easy or not easy. It's easy, you're when you have Michael
Jordan. But correct me if I'm wrong. He's the guy who drafted Pip
In, he drafts Tony ku coach in the second round. He makes a
couple of you know, savvy trades. They actually did spend a little bit
of time on the Bill Cartwright trade in one of those early episodes. So
maybe I'm unfairly criticizing the filmmakers now, but I do feel like there could
be a little bit more balanced with the story around him. Yeah, they
did mention the scouting stuff for like maybe five minutes, but you know,
and so I don't even know if that's a criticism. There was probably a
lot of concessions that had to be made to get Jordan to sign off on
this, And I know there have been people who've talked about their journalistic integrity
of this, and I actually think those are fair points to highlight. That
being said, I've still really enjoyed the documentary, and if those were the
common fines within which they were working, I do think they've done a good
enough job. And like I said, you know, Jerry Kraut is certainly
guilty to some extent here the Kukach stuff, where I think it was in
one of these episodes they were talking about he went to negotiate with Tony Kukoach
while there were still negotiations going on with Scottie Pippen, and so to sort
of prioritize Tony Kukach over someone who's probably like one of the three best players
in the NBA at that point or something that is sort of wild, but
there it's I think that's what makes it so uncomfortable is he wasn't here or
there at the time they were recording this to really just provide his side of
the story. I'm not trying to turn him into a sympathetic figure. But
it is also interesting to me to see how even definitely Michael Jordan and then
Scottie Pippen a little bit and Phil Jackson a little bit have still thrown Jerry
Krauss under the bus in their present day interviews. And that's what's been interestingly
because they know he's not here to respond, and so maybe you'd think that
they would feel a little bit different, But the fact that they don't makes
me think, Wow, maybe he really was that bad. But again,
it's it's a little bit unsettling now, just because it seems like they're really
pushing it as a main thesis of this is Jerry Krauss was the undoing of
this Bulls dynasty. And I guess if this is the story ultimately of the
ninety seven ninety eight team and they just hate Jerry Krauss, maybe the intention
is to show that hatred for him, and in that sense, I guess
it does kind of make sense. But like you and I have both said,
at this point, it might be nice to have a little bit of
the other side. You also, so we're gonna probably jump around lot during
this episode. I think that's just kind of the nature you mentioned in there.
The Pippin ku Coach stuff, which I thought was really fascinating. I
can't remember if it was episode five or six, but you know, Pipping
is obviously really upset with the fact that Kraus is not only negotiating with Tony
kup coach. They said that Kraus called him the future of the organization,
right, I think they took offense to that. And one thing that I've
learned in this documentary that I didn't know beforehand is everybody talks about the vindictiveness
and the competitiveness of Michael Jordan, it seems like Scottie Pippen had it every
bit as much as he did. And maybe that's, you know, one
of the factors that drives him to win six titles. It's on top of
this kup coach stuff that we just learned in these episodes, he's got,
you know, sitting out the beginning of the ninety seven ninety eight season,
which they've already touched on the trade demand. He had a very very serious
competitive streak in him too, and I just I don't think it's gets brought
up nearly as much as Jordan's does. Yeah, I mean that's a good
point as one. I'm sure that his contract situation didn't help, and again,
I know he signed the seven year, eighteen million dollar deal, but
that overarching like resentment I think definitely probably contributed because it almost feels like he
has this competitive edge against his own organization where you don't really hear about how
he necessarily approached it towards opposing teams. You mentioned, so this is related
to Kuk coach, and so that the ninety two Dream Team stuff. There
were a few things that stood out to me, and I think it begins
with Isaiah Thomas, and so MJ had this to say. I immediately wrote
this quote down when he said it. He said, I respect Isaiah Thomas's
talent. To me, the best point guard of all time is Magic Johnson,
and right behind him is Isaiah Thomas. No matter how much I hate
him, I respect his game. Two things. One I immediately thought,
I don't know if you've ever done P ninety X, but I immediately thought
of Tony Horton saying I hate but I love it. That's what I mean.
He came to mind when when I heard this quote. Number Two,
it seemed Jordan denies keeping him off the ninety two Dream Team, even though
he clearly asked, I think Rod Thorne, who was putting it together at
the time, whether he was going to be on it, and Rod Thor's
basically whoever you are asking about it's not going to be on it. I
I really don't feel sympathy for Isaiah Thomas, and I'm not trying to shoot
on him because it seems like he had some beef with other players on this
roster, definitely with I think both Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson. If I'm
not mistaken somebody, I think it might be Wilbon talks about that too in
the documentary. Yeah, so that doesn't make me feel bad. I also
don't look at the players on the roster and say, you know what,
you should have taken John Stockton off Forrisaiah Thomas. You should have taken Clyde
Drexeler off Risaiah Thomas. Now, if you came to me and said you
wanted to take if you didn't really care about positions and you want to take
Christian Latner off Frisaiah Thomas, that to me makes sense. I don't know
if they he did to have a college player or something because he was coming
to the NBA at that point, was he not? That was right before
his first season in the league. Maybe I'm wrong. I was two years
old at the time, so you'll have to forgive me. But or if
you wanted to take I'm looking at the roster right now. Yeah, Chris
mullinoff and put Isaiah Thomson, Like, I totally understand that. But if
his relationship with these with many of these players, many of them, is
the reason that he didn't make the team, I honestly don't feel bad because
it's you. You were trying. The whole point of assembling this superstar roster
was to make sure that the United States made this statement globally, and if
having Isaiah Thomas might have risked risked the chemistry at all just because he was
again had it wasn't just problems with some of the players, it was the
probably would you say, the three best players on the roster Johnson, Bird
and Jordan Yeah, yeah, like that. I honestly don't feel sympathy.
Is he maybe underrated historically? I would listen to a case for that,
and he was definitely exceptional. It does feel like his titles sort of do
get lost to historical anecdotes sometimes, and then because of what Detroit's identity was,
I don't think people necessarily appreciate how good he was offensively on the court.
But I really Isaiah Thomas doesn't come off looking like throughout this whole story,
he doesn't come off looking like a sympathetic figure to me personally, No,
and I don't. I don't think they're trying to make him look sympathetic.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, and except for I actually think there's a
case that he's overrated. Oh let's say that. Yeah, there's often an
implication that because they're both point guards, that Isaiah Thomas should have been on
the team over John Stockton. But statistically, he honestly was not close to
Stockton for the three seasons immediately preceding the Olympics. I mean, it's seventeen
points, fourteen assists, three steals per seventy five possessions for Stockton with a
plea seven relative true shooting percentage compared to nineteen and nine and two steals for
Thomas with a minus three relative true shooting percentage. There's a fairly significant gap
statistically between them. Now. Of course, Isaiah Thomas wins titles in eighty
nine and ninety, and like you said, those have kind of gotten lost
to history, and you get the sense from a lot of these Pistons guys
that they're bitter about that, and they probably should be there. There aren't
a ton of people who've repeated as NBA champions, So they probably have a
little bit of a right to be, but they're they're just sort of sandwiched
in sort of a basketball history no man's land. It's it's as the Celtics
and Lakers, you know, eighties dynasties are waning, and it's before Michael
Jordan really takes over the league, and their biggest their biggest claim to NBA
history might be that they refined Jordan more than their titles. Even I think
they're more known for that as being like the last hurdle that Jordan got over,
than they are for winning the championships. So maybe they have a right
to be bitter. But as far as Isaiah Thomas goes and in the bitterness
of being locked up in nineteen ninety two team, I'm with you. I
don't. I don't think there's a real strong argument that he should have been
on there, even from a basketball sense. Yeah, there's like I think
there were only three players that you could begin to talk about maybe he should
have been in over And I don't know how it works out with positions.
Then when you're looking at point guards specifically, No, you shouldn't be on
there. Over definitely not magic. Johnson probably wouldn't have taken him over John
Stockton either. If you were looking at a Clyde Drexler, a Christian Lightner,
or a Chris Mullen, then maybe, but I don't know how they
were what they were looking. Look at Drexler's numbers in those years, like
I WO, yeah, he always seemed like someone that might have coasted a
little too much on athleticism. But if nothing else, I'd say, Ah
Thomas was just such a good passer compared to Drexler, I could I think
there's a case there if you're talking about like Mullin, Latner and drex are
the only three players that I could imagine having an argument that he should have
made this roster over Not that this is I mean, this isn't. This
doesn't determine the issue. But Isaiah Thomas was thirty fifth in box plus minus
over the three seasons right before the Olympics. And again that's not that's just
one number. But Chris Mullen was sixteenth, Patrick Ewing was fourteenth, Mark
Price tenth. Who who's I mean Christian Lightner is not going to be on
here because he wasn't in the NBA. Yet that's I think you've hit on
the obvious one. Were you just throwing Mark Price in there for fun?
Yeah, yeah, I'm just looking at American players who are ahead of him,
Horse Grant, Kevin Kale. Anyway, I don't ahead I'm with you.
I don't think he's a sympathetic figure. I will say I wish that
we could have I don't know how you could have seen more, but I
loved the stuff about that scrimmage they had where everyone was mad at each other.
It was like Jordan versus Magic. I would have loved to have seen
the full footage of that or here the trash talking that was going on,
and it was so it was such a flex when they were talking about their
favorite moments from that ninety two dream team was playing each other. It wasn't
competing against other teams, it was playing each other. Those those practices.
I think Magic even said in this one of these episodes that that was some
of the best basketball that's ever been played, was those guys. And when
you look back on that roster, it really is with the exception of I
guess Laterner, other than that, it's all like Hall of Fame, all
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like how at the end, because you know, there seemed to be this
disdain from Scotty and Jordan towards who coach. They did seem to respect him
by the end of the Olympics, and then it's known that you know,
he kind of took their ship once he came over to the US, and
then he and Scotty became like really close while they were still on the Bulls.
And you know, Tony Kuk Coach was really good. I don't know
that he ever reached you know, when you come over when you're twenty age
twenty five season, that's certainly going to cut down your prime. He still
played it. I think it was like twelve years in the NBA, But
I don't know that we ever got to see peak. Tony Kuk Coach won
because of how old he was when he came over. But two, he
was never really given the runway to just like I think he probably could have
shouldered more volume. You know, he peeks in the ninety ninety nine season
when he's not with Scottie or Jordan Any averages almost nineteen points a game,
five point three assists, not the not the highest true shooting percentage, but
he hit forty five percent of his two's got to the line at you know,
a lower clip. Just a really smart player and he's someone that I
wish we could see he would definitely be a four or maybe a five in
this year's NBA, this current NBA, I think, But I do believe
that he would be really good in today's game. And I also believe there
are a ton of players from recent history, let's say, that I'd love
to see in the current league, and he's definitely among the top ones for
me. Yeah, he was. He was definitely a guy that was a
little bit ahead of his time, sort of a point forward in a lot
of ways, similar to Scotty in terms of the passing, more of an
outside shooter. Like he said, his numbers drop off when he takes over
the team, at least percentage wise in nineteen ninety eight ninety nine, but
you did get a glimpse of his ability to carry a team. It was
a terrible Bowls team that was always going to happen when Jordan and Pippin left.
But you're right, he was. He was really fascinating. I've had
a chance to write about him a couple of times here during the hiatus because
Bleacher Reports had me doing a lot of historical stuff, and one of the
ones they had me do was the best trios of all time, And I
wound up going with Jordan Pippin and Kuk coach, and a lot of people
were understandably upset about that. They thought it should have been Jordan Pippen and
Rodman. And I even think there's there might be a better argument for Jordan
Pippen and Horace Grant over Rodman. But I went with Kup coach because of,
you know, the methodology that I used. He actually had the best
numbers of any other number three that Jordan and Pippin played with. Just a
really solid number three. Passed the ball, rebounded, did a little bit
of everything, shot threes, really solid player. And I still am kind
of waiting for a little bit more time given to Tony Kuk coach. I
think this was our first real exposure to him. But this is this is
a look at him as a member of the Croatian national team. I want
some I want a little bit of detail about what he was like with the
Bulls. Did you have? I can't remember who it was who had Steve
Kerr on their podcast recently, it was either Zach Well or Bill Simmons,
but he said that he's kind of embarrassed that he's on all the promo posters.
Yeah, and Tony kuk Coach isn't, and he just raved about what
a great player Tony kuk Coach was. So hopefully, I mean, we've
still got four more episodes to get into it and then and it seems like
their format is basically, let's spend ten minutes on this and then ten minutes
on this. So hopefully eventually he'll get his you know, ten minutes.
This is what Tony kuk Coach was on these you know, second three peat
balls. I'm assuming we'll get there, but I guess you really never know
what direction this documentary is gonna take. The thing that I was kind of
surprised at and I don't know if this was maybe they'd never planned to do
it, or maybe they'd planned to do more on it, but then Kobe
died in that helicopter crash. I thought if they were going to spend time
on the Jordan Kobe relationship, that they would have spent more time on it
they were. I thought there were a few good quotes. The episode five
opens with uh there at the ninety eight All Star Game and MJ's saying to
the locker room that he's in that little Laker boy is gonna take everybody in
one on one. He doesn't let the game come to him. He just
goes out and take it. H that was like that hit me. That
was great, and then Kobe saying, I wrote this one down as well.
He's like my big brother. I truly hate having discussions about who would
win one on one. What you get for me is from him. I
don't get five championships without him. And I liked that he phrased it that
way because there's not a Kobe mj debate. If you want to talk about
Kobe being the closest fac simile two Michael Jordan that we've seen, I'll listen
to it, just because the moves were so similar. You look at the
mentality on the court with their approach to winning. I totally get that,
but they're you know, one person makes an account to continuously spam you messages
about how Kobe was better than Michael Jordan or how his peak was better than
Michael Jordan's and it wasn't. And I think the fact that there are people
that maybe still want to have that debate or talk about it, and I
do think they're they're diminishing in number. It takes away from what that relationship
apparently was like we don't hear enough about that. We saw Jordan talking at
Kobe's memorial and that was sort of a great peak behind the curtain, But
it would be cooler to spend more time on with this documentary, spend a
little bit of time. I was just the relationship, how Jordan had told
him, if you need anything or have any questions, just just reach out
to me, and how they sort of afford that relationship, because that's the
actual cool part about their link to me, and of course how similar they're
in aesthetics there their games were, and I hate that there's still even a
slight debate because there really shouldn't be about whether Kobe is on Michael Jordan's level.
He was, you know, you ranked him. He's one of the
all time greatest players, Kobe Bryant, but Michael Jordan's just just better.
And that's not trying to spend some sort of agenda here. I just I'm
more appreciating that the little time that this documentary spent on their relationship beyond that,
and I wish we could have seen more. Aesthetics is the exact word
that I used in the takeaways article that I wrote for bleacher Report on this
episode. Statistically, it's honestly not all that close between Jordan and Kobe.
But I love that YouTube clip and I think I hyper linked to it in
the right up where it just shows back to back Jordan moves and Kobe moves
like he like like Jordan. Like Kobe himself said, you already gave the
quote, what you got from me is from him. He clearly patterned his
game after him, and I don't think even if the numbers aren't there,
I don't I don't know if we'll ever see somebody who just looks like Jordan
the way that he plays like Kobe did. So, so yeah, I
think aesthetics is the perfect word for that. And believe it or not,
I threw that in the takeaways too. He's the closest thing, and it's
it's almost like he's the he's the aesthetically I'm gonna say that word one more
time, the successor to Jordan, because he's he's he's not quite there statistically,
but like you said, the way they put it was awesome. How
it was a brotherly relationship, you know, how Jordan was was kind of
talking crap about him to the other Eastern Conference All Stars. But then Kobe
sit after the after the game, he came up to me and said,
you know, anytime you need anything, let me know. I think he
probably saw a little bit of himself and Kobe Bryant and then thought, you
know, I can impart my wisdom to this kid, and it sounds like
he did so that. I think that stuff of or that part of the
documentary was cool. Like you and I said before we started recording, it
would have been nice to maybe get a little bit more of that, but
maybe they just maybe they didn't have a chance, like you said before we
were recording to talk to Kobe enough, But that that was that was a
really interesting window into that dynamic and that relationship. Yeah, the other thing
about Kobe is that it seems like because you don't really you don't really hear
about how people pattern their games after Jordan aside from Kobe, I feel like,
you know, I'm talking about in that era, and a lot of
that just has to do with the access you had to Kobe during his prime,
just because media was a different beast then. He wasn't at the high
eight of social media. But I feel like, you know, YouTube clips
of those are just those were prevalent for players who are even coming into the
NBA. Now you talk about you know, guys who liked Demard Rozen love
him or Russell Westbrook love him. They're still Trey Young is in love with
Kobe Bryant, and so I think just the way that his brand took on
a different sort of life because of the time that he hit his prime on
the basketball court, I think that contributes to some of what I'll call it
deluded takes about where he actually belongs to the pantheon of NBA history, one
of the most and I'm talking just about basketball here, one of the most
iconic players on the court. But I if Michael Jordan had the type of
i'm gonna say exposure or accessibility that Kobe did to the masses, because it
does seem like Jordan was a pretty accessible superstar when you're talking about reporters.
He feeled the questions about his future routinely, particularly during that ninety seven ninety
eight season. But the I don't even I guess the momentum behind it that
Kobe not that he I don't want to say enjoyed, like he didn't earn
it, just different times and so maybe there would be that similar talk about
Jordan if there you know he was he came up during the or was at
any point in his prime during the YouTube erew. Yeah, I'm with all
of that, so totally agree. What are some other takeaways that we had
on this particular episode I've got I've got a little handy list here if you
just want to run through them. Yeah, if you want to talk about
the that we discussed before the pod, I think it's about how Jordan would
be in today's game. And you pointed to the game against Clyde Drexler where
he just decided that he was going to make every three in the world.
Yeah, that was really interesting to me because you've got Marv Albert or a
clip of Marv Albert right before game one saying that they statistically mirrored each other
in the regular season. And my first thought was, no way. You
know, Jordan in the early nineties was ridiculous, and he was. But
I looked up the numbers and they're closer than I thought they would be.
It's still clearly Jordan as the better player. He led the league in box
post minus that season at nine point seven, and he averaged thirty points,
six rebounds, six assists, two steals in a block. It's just crazy
numbers. But Drexer was third in the NBA in box PUS minus at eight
point seven, and he averaged twenty five points, seven rebounds, seven assists,
two steals in a block. I mean, he had a phenomenal season
two. But Jordan had a quote in the Dock he said Clyde was a
threat, but me being compared to him, I took offense to that.
And it sounds like there was a lot of people comparing the two heading into
that series, and Magic Johnson says in the Dock that Jordan told him before
the series that he was just going to go out and take it to this
guy, and that's exactly what he did. I think he had thirty some
points in that first half on top of the threes that he hit. This
is the famous shrug game that I think just about every NBA fan has seen
that image at some point of Jordan's shrugging after he hits I think the fifth
three in the first half. This is a fascinating look at, like you
said, what he could potentially be if he had come up in today's game
like he obviously would have added a three point shot. It already seems like
he was a good We don't have numbers for this, it already seems like
he was a good set three points just off the h Yeah, there's just
no doubt in my mind that he would have added that. But it's also
a look at just how he would sort of if they weren't already manufactured.
And I think this one was sort of manufactured by outside forces. It seems
like Jordan had a knack for manufacturing things to be mad about and things to
compete against and to try and sort of take himself to another level. And
again in this case, the matchup was sort of manufactured by outside forces,
and he just went out and destroyed Clyde Drexer in that series. Yeah,
that's odd Jordan. I would love to have seen him play today. I
don't know that there. I've seen this stuff on Twitter where it's like basically
the SpongeBob meme where people are making fun of other people who were saying Jordan
couldn't have thrived in this era. I actually think it's probably the other way
around, is that I see more of today's stars wouldn't be as good and
I don't. I don't see anyone saying that Michael Jordan wouldn't have been great.
Yeah. I just would have loved to have seen it. Yeah,
I think you'd be phenomenal. Uh. What I also enjoyed from this is
they delve into the shoe stuff. As you mentioned, how Jordan wanted to
sign with Adidas or thought Adidas was colder than Nike, and the only reason
he basically went to Nike was because his mom and dad forced him to,
or at least Yeah. Yeah, that stuff was fascinating too, And I
think the biggest takeaway from me on that was his agent at the time,
David Fall, said that New York or not New York, Nike had a
goal to sell three million dollars worth of Jordan's through the four year contract or
through at the end of year four, however long the contract us. I
can't rememb but after four years the goal was three million. In year one
they moved one hundred and twenty six million dollars worth of air Jordan's. You
know, I don't even I don't even know. Yeah by what percentage that
defeats the goal, But it's just it's crazy. He was a cultural phenomenon.
And in that section they have got they have celebrities like Nas and Justin
Timberlake and Spike Lee talking about how you know, basketball shoes were just basketball
shoes before Jordan came along. Now they're like a cultural symbol to this day.
I mean people who were even born after Jordan collect Michael Jordan's, people
who were born after his career ended. I should say his shoe has become
a cultural staple in America. It's it's just remarkable what he accomplished as a
not just as a basketball player, but like as as a marketing I don't
know, I don't know if tool is the right word. He's just he's
just sold merchandise in a way that I don't I don't know if anybody else
ever has no I would totally agree with you. There and him wearing the
Air Jordan ones in his last Masson Square Garden game, and then that was
funny. Then afterwards afterwards he's like, by halftime, my feet are bleeding,
but I'm having a good game. I don't want to take them off.
I couldn't take those shoes. But and then the game's over and he
says, I couldn't take the shoes off fast enough. When I took the
shoes off, my sock was soaked in blood. Oh, I don't know.
I side note. I don't understand how people played in some of the
shoes they did in earlier eras, especially a guy like Michael Jordan, Like
he was flying all over the place in those first couple of years and he
was playing in those Jordan ones. My dad played in college in the seventies,
and that's back when they still wore cons and to this day his feet
like mangled. I don't I don't understand, So I always forget. You
had Larry Byrd and Magic Johnson dropping balls. That's so funny. Yeah,
that that was That was a good clip. I should have wrote down written
down Larry Bird's line at the end of that, something about how they made
me the MVP or something like that, and that Johnson's like staring them right
in the face. That's the other thing. You don't really see those commercials
anymore where the stars are together, like Magic Johnson and Larry Bird just being
in the same commercial, or there's that. I don't know if you've ever
seen Ken Griffey Junior and Don Mattingley, that baseball commercial the I Got It
where Ken Griffy Junior basically robs Don Maddenley of a home run by running across
the country to catch it. Like, you never really see anything like that
anymore, I think because everyone's probably more brand focused, where you know,
if you're Don Mattingley's people, it's like, well, we don't want it
to look like Ken Griffey Jr. Is better than Don Mattingley here. That
is that is interesting that those are just kind of gone. I never really
thought about that until now I can't. That is the last one, like
the street Ball where players are like dribbling the ball to the to the beat
of a song and putting the ball in their shirt and stuff. That's the
last one I can remember where there was a bunch of NBA players in the
same commercial. Yeah, even the duel ones, wasn't there? Was it
a was it the Kevin Durant Dwayne Wade one where they're like functionally sleeping,
I guess, And so it's like they actually get dunked one by the other
one. But that's not a bunch of people like an aside from it's mostly
you know, the remember the NBA Christmas Day one where they were dribbling to
the beat or shooting to the beat of the Christmas song. It's like going
to be pleasant stuff like that. So look at up, look at us,
old men yelling at clouds here right now, lamenting, lamenting a better
commercial error. There were two other points that we wanted to discuss, the
first of which, for some reason, I'm blanking on right now. Oh,
the gambling. They touched on the gambling issue. I wonder had he
gone to Atlantic City in today's NBA right before it was Game two against the
Knicks. I think it was the Eastern Conference vinyls right, unless I'm mistaken,
would that have been It definitely would have been more covered. Would it
have been as big of a deal because it was. It was made out
to be this huge deal. But I feel like everyone just knows that certain
NBA players are party goers at this point, and so someone going to Atlantic
City maybe let's not even say the Atlantic City of today, because it's a
dumpster fire I would call it, basically, But someone going to Lancy wouldn't
or something like that just wouldn't be a huge deal to me. I don't
think it would be a huge deal either. I think everybody would just kind
of be like, oh, okay, it doesn't Jordan say in the documentary
that he didn't get back night, Yeah, okay, til Jackson didn't care.
Yeah, And I thought, you know, it was interesting, Like
to me, the idea of a one point two million dollars debt to a
golfing buddy that you're you know, betting on holes with that sounds insane.
And that's what. I can't remember the guy's name, Richards, like more
than a tenth of Scottie Pippins seventh year eighteen contract. Gosh, where is
he? I wrote his name down somewhere, I think, but I can't
find it. Now. What do you think about the thought that when people
say that Michael Jordan didn't have a gambling problem, it wasn't a financial problem
for him because he just had the disposable aim. That's whereas gambling might actually
be a problem for him. And I'm not sitting here trying to diagnose anyone.
I want to make that clear. I'll never do that. My whole
thing is you just hear these stories about not him just playing cards on the
planes for huge amounts of money, but he would join like the one dollar
card games and just be like super competitive in them, which I kind of
respect it, but it's also like maybe maybe there was something to that notion.
He basically said that. They played an interview with him, and I
think it was Connie Chung, you know, back at the time where she
asks him straight up, do you have a gamming problem? And he goes,
no, because I can stop gambling. I have a competition problem.
I have a competitive problem. And it obviously wasn't a problem for him on
the floor because it led to six titles, but like you said, maybe
it did get him in a little bit of trouble here and there. But
David Aldridge, it was another guy who talked about this and he said to
Jordan, a ten thousand dollars bet is like a ten dollars bet to you
and me, right, So I think the way the documentary and I don't
know if he'll get back into this later, but it was almost like they're
the point they were trying to make was no, it wasn't a problem because
he had the money. He never got to a point where, you know,
sharks were like threatening to break his leg or anything like that. He
was fine. He paid off his gambling debts. It was just more of
his insatiable hunger to win at everything. This is in one of these episodes,
it has him playing that game with the quarters with the security guy United
Center, Like it looks like they're playing some kind of game where you just
toss a quarter from one end of the room to the other and you try
to see how close you can get to the wall without hitting it. Is
that what it was? Because I was trying to figure it out, that's
the best answer I could come up with, but I couldn't. Like the
footage was a little grainy, But if that's what they were doing, that's
just absolutely crazy. So yeah, they're they're some game. They probably just
made up on the spot one day and then they you know, it becomes
a deal with him in the security guards. But he's betting money on that,
and so maybe maybe he's just wins so much he's got to raise the
stakes a little bit by by throwing a little bit of money at it.
And in that same story that you alluded to where he goes to the one
dollar card game at the front of the plane, John Paxson asks him,
why do you why do you want to play in this game? We're just
doing a dollar a hind and he says, because I want your money in
my pocket. They're they're just a competitive streak in him that's almost unhealthybody will
ever top it? No, I don't, And I think he came out
and said that people were going to hate him more after this documentary unless there's
some like really fucking crazy stuff in the final four episodes. This has made
me like Michael Jordan Moore for the most part, just running through it.
And the other thing that I can appreciate and maybe is probably why I don't
know how he would handle this. Twenty four seven, three sixty five you
have to be on at all times. Era was at the end where you
could tell that he's clearly tired of fame, and he even says when he's
talking about possibly not come like possibly leaving the Bulls after the ninety eight season,
which he does. Granted we now can listen to this knowing in hindsight
that he played for the Wizards for two seasons. But he says, I
hear a lot of people say, well, you're gonna miss it, and
he said, I'm not sure if I'm gonna miss it. I don't think
I'm gonna miss it, and you could just tell. He even said that
being like Mike is is really hard, and that was the last thing for
me. I don't know what other note you've have written down that I just
found fascinating. Was even at that time where I would say that he could
probably be a little bit more closed off than the stars of today, that
yeah, maybe he's thisronger brand than any of them were. You talk about
the mobs outside the hotel rooms, and maybe people aren't as likely to do
that now because they feel like they have more access via via the internet or
something. And I don't know how accessible stars are now in terms of these
live autographs. It seems like a lot of them are done in scores and
then they get sent out. But to be so fatigued from all of that
attention, from actually being Michael Jordan, it made me appreciate, and as
someone who thinks he already appreciates this, but made me appreciate more of the
burden that today's biggest names really carry because now they're dealing with the social media
scrutiny. And I don't want to say that Michael Jordan was innoculated from negative
coverage because that's certainly not the case. The Jordan rules was touched upon it
in these episodes, as we just talked about the gambling stuff, but to
have to deal with the constant voices of people who in essence don't matter,
like let's say, like you and mat who aren't on the ground on a
day to day basis, and there are people who are going to be less
legitimate than you and I. You're just these fans that maybe just aren't fans
of the players said team, so they're going to chime in with this criticism
on social media. You have the jokes that get fired off on social media,
the captions to the pictures, which I actually think are funny, but
being the subject of them, would you feel any different? And so it
really made me appreciate what players have to go through today more. But it
was also just something clearly I never realized at the time for Michael Jordan,
is how tired he was of being Michael Jordan and then how open, at
least in some instances he was about that. Yeah, and it led him
to do something that we haven't seen since maybe maybe I'm missing someone, but
just to take a year off and try another sport. He clearly was fatigued
with the whole everything that comes with being Michael Jordan, and I thought they
did a good job of showing that in these episodes. The only other thing
that I had, and I don't think we need to spend a ton of
time on this, is just that that finals series with the Phoenix Suns.
I remember. Maybe this is just because of the time that I grew up,
but I remember Charles Barkley as a Phoenix Sun, and I think he
only played like four seasons there, but he did win the MVP that season,
and he had a phenomenal finals against the Chicago Bowls and they lost.
They won a couple of games, they lost the series in six. But
I want one thought that I had while watching that, and this is,
you know, not new, but there were just so many phenomenal, phenomenal
players like Charles Barkley who just they just didn't have a shot at a title
because they came up in the same time that Michael Jordan did. There.
Their only chance was those was was the year that he took off to play
baseball. In the year after that, when the Houston Rockets won both of
them, you basically had a two year window if you were one of those
nineties legends, because other than that, it was just gonna be Jordan.
Yeah, that's yeah, that's insane to think about as well. This Uh
I was talking to you before the podcast about how like this sort of made
me appreciate a little bit more to how just good Charles Barkley was because you
talk about he, I feel like people forget Yeah, he didn't win a
championship, but he was an MVP and it was someone that Jordan wanted to
make a statement against as well. And it also seems semi related to to
to what you said and to this in general, how the conversation was at
one point that Michael Jordan, excuse me, couldn't win championships, like he
was just scoring points. That was more like episode four stuff. I know,
but I couldn't even imagine talking about Michael Jordan in those terms. Yeah,
that he's you know, he's a he's a me first guy. He's
never gonna be on Bird and Magic's level. And we still do that stuff
with players today. There's Chris Paul's definitely don't know what happened with that,
Yeah, for sure, I don't. I don't know if it's ever gonna
be more prevalent in any other sports than it is in basketball. But we
just we look at guys as non winners until they win a championship. It's
a really interesting phenomenon basketball. I was gonna say, is it probably because
that basketball is perhaps the one sport where team sport where a singular player is
supposed to make that type of difference. And I don't necessarily agree that that's
the case anymore because there's so much talent in the league, but I feel
like that's maybe where that phenomena draws from. Yeah, And I think I
even do it subconsciously, like I can sit here and criticize that mentality.
But I was, you know, watching the twenty nineteen twenty season play out,
and the Milwaukee Bucks are putting up, you know, historical team stats.
For a while, they had the biggest point differential in league history.
Their SRS is probably still like top ten all time. They've got Jana sent
to Kupo, who's putting up numbers that are like legitimately unprecedented. And yet
in the back of my mind, I'm thinking I kind of like the Lakers
of the Clippers to win the title because they've done it before. Lebron's done
it before, and why has done it before? So I think you hit
on something there. Though they're in basketball more than any other team sport,
major team sport, you know, uh, you know, football, baseball,
Hockey maybe this way too, but I don't know hockey that well.
But one individual player can change a lot. It's not as prevalent in the
NBA as it is in like high school or college. If you get one
good high school player in Wyoming, you've got a chance to win the state
titles just because there's only five gays that five guys out there. So it
really is it To me, it's a really interesting dynamic that basketball brings and
that comes along with basketball analysis real quick. Is there anything you're hoping still
to see that the documentary is yet to cover. I'm really hoping they get
into the nitty gritty of his baseball decision. I think they will too,
because I think they foreshadowed that at the end of episode six. They don't
actually say that he's about to go play baseball, but they talk you brought
it up. They talk about the fatigue and he's just kind of tired of
all the fame and fortune or you know, fame and attention that comes with
being Michael Jordan. So I bet that's coming. And I can't remember now
if you said this before we started recording or after, but I just would
like to see a little bit more detail on the actual team that this was
advertised to be about, the ninety seven ninety eight team. And again,
they've got four more episodes, so there's I think, you know, still
decent amount of time to get into all the stuff that we want. But
some of the snippets that they've given us in the first six episodes are really
interesting. You and I talked about this. I think right after the first
couple episodes. There's a lot more nitty gritty to this team that I just
don't remember. And it's because we were, again, we were pretty young
at the time. Like I didn't care about the drama of the ninety seven
ninety eight Bowls the way I would care about the drama of the team now,
so I don't. I had no recollection of the Scottie Pippen stuff for
the Jerry Kraus stuff, and so I think there's probably more to get into
there. And that's that's the season that they have this documentary crew following around,
so you think there's tons of footage, so hopefully we get a little
bit more of that, and I'm assuming there's gonna be more Steve Kerr.
I'm not lamenting if there's not, but if they were going to use him
as part of the promo, I know he just has a recognizable face because
of what he's done as the Warriors coach as well. I'm just assuming there's
going to be more on him, and if there's not, then yes,
they probably definitely should have used someone else as a face for the promotion.
But I do think, as we mentioned already, relative to the restrictions with
which they're working with, where Michael Jordan probably had a sign off on everything,
I really have enjoyed this and same here, especially because there's there's nothing
else to watch. There's no live sports. You know, the NFL Draft
is over, the w NBA Draft is over. We don't know when the
NBA Draft is going to be because they're trying to see if they could finished
their season. So I've definitely appreciated this documentary. Maybe I'd be a little
bit more critical of it if it was, you know, came out during
a normal time where there wasn't a global pandemic going on and there were alternatives.
But also, like we said, I do, I do think it's
fair to question the journalistic integrity of some of this, and specifically the coverage
of Jerry Krauss, But all in all, this has been highly enjoyable for
me, and as someone who enjoys memes and these weird sound bites, it's
been great. Yeah, I think if I had degrade the six episodes I've
seen so far, I would definitely give it an A. I've I've thoroughly
enjoyed what I've seen so far, and it'll be really interesting to see how
it resolves. Like it's kind of crazy, we're already halfway through it.
Yeah, and it's it's probably easier for people like us to enjoy it without
you know, maybe this hint of cynicism because we so much of this stuff
is I don't want to say it's like we knew about it, but like
we're kind of understanding how ridiculous it was, just because we weren't maybe fully
old enough to appreciate it. Then. I know you said these were like
the first ninety seven and ninety eight were like the ninety six ninety seven,
whatever was were the first two seasons that you really sort of zoned in.
But to just be older and be an actual adult rather than you know,
a pre teen or someone who wasn't even eight years old or something at this
point is I think it's easier for at least for me, So I always
speak for myself, it's easier for me to just appreciate it and enjoy it
because it's it's so fascinating and there's just this level of comprehension about this Bulls
team, about Jordan, about his teammates that I clearly didn't have before.
Yeah, I'm with you, and I just realized I'm the one who closes.
That's how long? Wow wow wow. As always, we encourage you
to rate, review and subscribe to the podcast. Like Dan said, there's
a there's been a cool ongoing series with him and Adam ranking the top ten
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regular. I shouldn't throw Dan into that. He's been great until next time.
We leave you with the shout out to Beno Udri, Kyle Anderson and
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