WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:09.240 What's going on everybody? Oh wow, that's excellent. My voice cracks up 2 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:15.160 in a very opening sentence. I'm fifty three, going in my third round 3 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:19.079 of puberty here, so welcome back to the show Adventures and DevOps. I'm 4 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:23.399 your host Will Button joining me in the studio or in parade. Welcome Wren, 5 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:27.000 how are you? Man? Hey? Thanks a lot. You know 6 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:31.359 what's interesting. I do a lot of public speaking, and one trick I've 7 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:34.520 learned is that you're supposed to sort of say like hello to yourself, maybe 8 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:38.759 quietly before you actually start talking. But we were just coming a long conversation, 9 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:44.840 so I honestly don't know what happened there. I would that's that would 10 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.679 That's one of those things that I think would take practice, saying hello to 11 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:52.560 yourself, because then I'm gonna I'm gonna start overthinking it, like who am 12 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:58.479 I saying hello to? Like I mean, it's be you know, create 13 00:00:58.560 --> 00:01:00.880 any sort of existential crisis here. But it's like, you know, I 14 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.439 mumbled to myself sometimes when I'm dealing with a difficult problem, so that sort 15 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:08.040 of comes a little bit natural to me. Anyway, the fact that I'd 16 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:12.640 like to share today is something important to remember. I think in the world 17 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:18.359 where we've started to convert to more to DevOps, which likely means agile working 18 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:21.959 that means no sprands, no scrum or anything like that, we lose a 19 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:26.439 lot of ceremonies that come by default. And with a big release that happens 20 00:01:26.560 --> 00:01:30.480 once a year or once every other year, we get we were reminded to 21 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.519 stop working on that thing potentially celebrate our successes. So it's still important to 22 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.480 do those things. As a matter of fact, if you release every day, 23 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:42.319 you almost should have little celebratory dances every day. But I usually recommend 24 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:46.519 making sure that your team does something once who are, once a week or 25 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.000 once every couple of weeks to actually sit down and be like, we're actually 26 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.400 a good team, we actually got something accomplished, because I think it's really 27 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:59.519 important for the health of the team and individual team members. That's that's a 28 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:05.599 really great point, man. That is I like that. I can't even 29 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:08.360 express in words how much I like that, because we spend so much time, 30 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:12.560 you know, feeling like we're under the gun, and you get something 31 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.840 done and there's no time to celebrate. You're behind on other stuff already. 32 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:20.919 So I think that's a great tip. I'm terrible at doing it, but 33 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:27.680 I I think it's important, and you know, I think teams love this 34 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:31.039 too. So in previous engagements we would have like a beer every Friday or 35 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.319 something like that where we actually talked about what we were doing. I think 36 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.759 it's super important. Yeah, for sure. Well, onto today's topic. 37 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:46.560 We're talking about awesome DevOps and assuming that if you're listening to this show you're 38 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.719 interested in DevOps could be a bold assumption on my part, but I'm gonna 39 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:53.240 roll with it. And you know, like whether you're just getting started or 40 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:59.400 whether you've been doing it for a long time, there's a continuous learning curve. 41 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:06.680 So our guest today, Maria Stanka, has created a repo and has 42 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:12.960 collected a bunch of resources and how to like break down and categorize the different 43 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:19.719 components and aspects of DevOps and it's really it's really a cool resource to go 44 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.360 through and just kind of reflect on, like, oh, I need to 45 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:24.400 work on this, so I don't need to work on that, or even 46 00:03:24.479 --> 00:03:30.560 like from a beginner's perspective of where do I even start. So with that 47 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:36.479 long ramble out of the way, Marius, welcome to the show. Thanks 48 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:43.680 thanks for Yeah. So what is your background in DevOps? How did you 49 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:47.520 get started? How long you've been doing it? Oh? I think I 50 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:57.759 started a freelance project, was a small project, and I think that was 51 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:03.039 that time. Is that popular? And I started to work let's as the 52 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:11.879 boks here, and then I realized how actually, how cool is that? 53 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.439 And then I'm doing from that time only the bops. I think I have 54 00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:24.439 more than ten years Yeah, the boks right, an, So what was 55 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:31.720 the inspiration behind creating the awesome DevOps repo? You know, I think all 56 00:04:31.759 --> 00:04:40.319 of us, or most of most of us, we open the links all 57 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:44.639 the time the browser. We have a bunch of tubs in the browser, 58 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:50.360 and you keep that I'll read this later, you know. And then I 59 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:56.120 realized why I should not put this, let's in that document? From that 60 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.959 time I was working actually in the corporation, and in that time I spent 61 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:08.720 a little bit of time to take all the tabs and then putting that in 62 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:13.800 this let's say document, and then why not a website written around this? 63 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:19.279 And then I gave this to some of the colleagues, what do you think 64 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:25.240 about this? And they they said, hey, it's a very good idea. 65 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:29.319 Actually one of them that pointed, hey, you need to put this 66 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:32.879 in this section something like that, And then I said, okay, let's 67 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.680 go into this in the in the in the in the open source space, 68 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:43.399 so then we can we can share this with a lot of people. There. 69 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.000 You've got quite a lot of things. Yeah, there wasn't only my 70 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:55.480 contribution. Actually, most of I mean more than tell people actually contribute to 71 00:05:55.480 --> 00:06:03.839 this, and they're keeping let's say people to let's say let's say fok or 72 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:12.040 stars that's still keeping let's say beverage is five per day. But yeah, 73 00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:16.720 it's it's grewing. Actually, yeah, it's green. Do you maybe this 74 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.759 is a trick question, but like do you know everything that's like in the 75 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:24.959 repository, Like are there things that have been added here? Like I don't 76 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.800 know what that tool is that someone just threw in there. That's a good 77 00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:35.160 question. Actually, I'm not I don't accept any any actually any resource in 78 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:42.839 that document. Actually I'm thinking not all of them, but some of them 79 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:48.480 might experiment also because I don't want to put any resource which is not related. 80 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:51.920 Most of them, by the way, or not most of them, 81 00:06:53.000 --> 00:07:00.600 but some of them. They tried to put only four let's say promote something 82 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:05.480 like that, not accept. Actually, if you let's say, give a 83 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:11.800 free account, or if you give at least away, you can experiment, 84 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:15.439 or you can play, or you can use let's say the project, then 85 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:20.160 yeah, it's one of criteria I can accept. But yeah, I don't 86 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:25.639 know all of them, to be honest, but at least I true. 87 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:30.199 I mean I I I checked actually all of them. Yeah, I checked 88 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:35.680 to see if it's related to the develops or it's related to the sorry. 89 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:41.959 Yeah, so yeah, yeah, And I think that's a I think that's 90 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:46.360 a really good point for for everyone to acknowledge, especially if you're new to 91 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:54.000 DevOps, as you're never going to have one hundred percent competency across DevOps. 92 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:58.399 You know, there's you're going to have things that you are good at, 93 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.639 and then your company or your job is going to shift and you're going to 94 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.680 lose those skills, but at the same time pick up new ones, and 95 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.079 then you'll circle back around, yeah, and get mad at yourself because you're 96 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:16.240 like, man, I used to know terrorform a lot better than this, 97 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:22.480 but the skills have died off, and you've got to not only like brush 98 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:26.639 up on the skills that you used to have, but also terraform has added 99 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.199 a bunch of new stuff since the last time you used it or whatever product 100 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.360 you know. I'm just picking on Terraform. But the thing is like it's 101 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:35.840 continuous learning. Yeah, for sure, I like that. It's a cool 102 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.879 hack to actually find out about those things. Right Like if you follow one 103 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.399 of these repositories, every time there's a new change or discussion, it's like 104 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.720 people are coming to you and telling you about that those things that are in 105 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:50.600 the industry that someone is using potentially and get extra experience and know where to 106 00:08:50.639 --> 00:09:01.720 look next. Yeah, so go ahead, and I so a few of 107 00:09:01.840 --> 00:09:07.799 the let's say, people I know they want to start also in the bops. 108 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.840 I mean, what's the BOBS doing? How I can get started? 109 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:16.720 Just give dis repeal. Then they go to the road map for example, 110 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:22.679 and then see what actually is the BOBS I think it's yeah, it's I 111 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:28.759 think it's helping you. It's helping them people who want to join in the 112 00:09:30.639 --> 00:09:35.879 what to see? What actually is the BOB set oriented towards those beginner engineers 113 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:41.600 that inexperienced or would there still be value for those that have three, five 114 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:46.080 or twenty years of experience. I think it's more available to people who has 115 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:52.480 more experience actually, because there are some other tools or at least the tools 116 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:58.840 for are in the its on the sections. Maybe they want to I want 117 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:05.360 to to see what are I know? How for example the key station is 118 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:09.159 working, for example, but I want to see what are the tools? 119 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:16.440 Who? Actually it's based on my use case or it's based on it's based 120 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:22.080 on my cover my needs. Actually, then I go there and see all 121 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:26.159 the tools, and most of the tools are quite complex and you need to 122 00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:31.559 know at least you need to have that knowledge tool let's say, pick up 123 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:37.120 quickly so you can take and fit in in your work. Yeah. I 124 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:46.960 think mostly it's most for the for the people who has experienced Yeah. So 125 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.360 for your own personal use how often do you find yourself referring to your own 126 00:10:50.399 --> 00:11:00.519 website for resources? U can you put? Yeah? How and do you 127 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.639 do you come back to your own to the to the awesome develops repo to 128 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:11.480 look up information for yourself? To be honest, I think keep the tabs 129 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:24.200 open. Uh, but oh, but I'm going actually to check the c 130 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:30.200 I C. Actually I have a pipeline who actually check every week the link 131 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:35.559 for each of the repole, if it's still available, if it's responding or 132 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:45.440 has actually TPS also, and I check then that time actually I checked this, 133 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:54.519 this, this, these links on the ripple. Yeah, I don't 134 00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:01.279 use let's say this very often, but yeah, but it's okay to be 135 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.840 as a record. Yeah, I mean I can imagine that there's some turn 136 00:12:05.919 --> 00:12:09.799 in the industry, but you've had to automate this. So that mean that 137 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.399 like a lot of legs get broken, like those products are no longer maintained 138 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.399 in some way. Do you have any like stats or just be like one 139 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.879 in five just don't exist after some time or something like that. Yeah, 140 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.320 last time it's one which is Vulture cloud. It's not responding. But I 141 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:33.360 saw I saw some of them. They changed a link and maybe there is 142 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:37.679 a security issue something like that, or maybe the link really relates to something 143 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.120 which is bad request, let's say. But yeah, last time, just 144 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:50.519 one. I had also ten which are not responding one time and then I 145 00:12:50.600 --> 00:12:56.519 get rid of them, yeah, or I change also the link in case 146 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:03.080 there is a ripot, I put the rep link that I'm using one of 147 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.080 the requests. Actually, when you put a link, it's okay to put 148 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:13.759 the GitHub because githubits remain there. If you put a let's say a customer 149 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:18.679 domain, sometimes it is broken because it depends on where you store this. 150 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:26.120 But yeah, I had also ten no more than ten, well this time 151 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:33.639 just one which is not responding. Maybe they put a limit. I don't 152 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:39.919 know, I don't know. Yeah, and more than two yeah, more 153 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:46.080 than two hundred responding. Yeah, oh wow. Right on. So when 154 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:54.440 I look at the top level organization of this you have You've got like cloud 155 00:13:54.440 --> 00:14:01.120 platforms and then file systems, automation, orchestration, database is like all these 156 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:09.559 upper level categories. How how did you decide that those are the top level 157 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:24.279 categories? Uh yeah, interesting question. Actually, I think based on so 158 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:35.360 when I look to the tool or platform, whatever, I just see what 159 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:41.519 actually for what is made. Actually, for example, let's take orchestration. 160 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:52.039 For example, Let's say we know, uh this, this orchestration is doing 161 00:14:52.159 --> 00:15:03.000 something like you can orchestrate let's say the work law or let's say process or 162 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:09.120 whatever. Just I just put Let's say I can find this set of tools 163 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:16.240 which which are doing similar things, for example, but they are for different 164 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.879 needs, but they are doing different things. And then I I put a 165 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:28.399 tag based on this, this these are doing the same thing. Then if 166 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:33.279 it's let's say more than two, three, four, I just put a 167 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:39.720 tag, just put this in this section. This is from them. Yeah. 168 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:41.120 Do you find that there's like a lot of tools that all on the 169 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:46.399 multiple categories, Like it's not so easy to quickly identify that, oh, 170 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:50.240 this is a data work it's like a database as a service or some sort 171 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:54.919 of data platform or something like that. Indeed, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 172 00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:00.360 I found for example, rg if you take Argo, it's not just 173 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:04.639 for the city. You can use for other things which has different components, 174 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.240 and it's hard to put only for the city you need to put Also, 175 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:17.919 there are category categories yeah, for the pipelines or data pipelines or something like 176 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:23.799 that. But it's yeah, there there, I mean, maybe I'm I'm 177 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:27.679 actually curious about that. So rg CD primarily, I mean it's in the 178 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:30.759 in the name that it's the ICD. But you're saying that there's you know, 179 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:34.799 they focus on a bunch of different areas, you know, talking me 180 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:41.519 about that. For example, they have Argo workflow. You can you can 181 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:45.879 run multiple I mean workflow which you can run let's say batch jobs. For 182 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:55.120 example. They have worlds Argo events. You can do this let's say for 183 00:16:55.320 --> 00:17:03.879 different events. You can trigger different let's say workflows. They have also also 184 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.559 with ugocity you can do not only the deployment, you can use for even 185 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:11.759 door key station. If you want to integrate this in the products. Let's 186 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:22.480 say I want to deploy restar creation. Let's say let's this are creation in 187 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.759 the cloud for example, and then you want to deploy let's say every time 188 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:32.039 new new triggers coming in the argosity you can do. This doesn't have to 189 00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:37.319 be let's say for the continuous deployment or continuous delivery. So yeah, it's 190 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:44.839 for different use case. Yeah, even if it's built for the c c 191 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:51.240 D, you can do or other things. I think that's one of the 192 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:59.160 benefits of having curated resources like this is you're able to to me. It 193 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:04.000 feels like you can get that information much more quickly from a curated list like 194 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:11.400 this than you can from the company's own website about their product. You know, 195 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.440 because like when you go to when you go to like someone's website, 196 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.279 not to pick on anyone, but there's like all the marketing and the fluff 197 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:23.599 and the pipeline to get you to cough up your email address. They can 198 00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:29.880 add you to their email list, you know, and it's hard to just 199 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.400 say, like, like, what do you actually do for a living? 200 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.480 I'm here on your page, what do you actually do? And then when 201 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:41.200 you figure that out, you know, like what else can you do? 202 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:44.559 And so I think that's where curated lists like this are really really helpful, 203 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.880 just because it strips down to here's what you're going to do. Yeah, 204 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:55.400 I mean, I think there's a ton of value there. Realistic by its 205 00:18:55.480 --> 00:19:00.119 just we have one that we maintain for SoC two related resources and we get 206 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.680 requests to update it similar and realistically we have to go to the provider and 207 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:07.759 be like, you know, what are you charging for? How much is 208 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.039 it? What do you get out of there? And some of them just 209 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.359 can't even answer us straight, like they want their link to there, and 210 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:19.559 I'm like, you told us that you charge seven thousand dollars per user set 211 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.640 for some small companies, but that's not what your pricing page that, So 212 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.680 like where did you get that from? Where did you pull it? Like, 213 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:30.000 well, oh we have we're updating that, or the feature set doesn't 214 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:33.039 match what they're looking at. And so it's like a real challenge to even 215 00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:37.079 like you're actually providing more than just the list curation, but also the definitions 216 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.400 of those things and what's important there for people that are coming and looking for 217 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:47.160 that tool set and it's not marketing nonsense. How big of a struggle is 218 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:51.000 that for you? I know you mentioned it earlier talking about checking to make 219 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.599 sure that the links are not only accessible, but that there's a free version 220 00:19:55.680 --> 00:20:00.599 of it. Do you find that there's a lot of a lot of places 221 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:08.960 where people try to slip in ways to get you into their sales funnel using 222 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:18.480 your site. I saw they saw a link, they open a fulle request 223 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:23.240 in that request has was the link and the end of the link it was 224 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:30.680 a code I think mostly Yeah, some of the people, Yeah, they 225 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:37.480 try also to promote and based on this code, it's referring, hey this 226 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:41.960 this, this request came from these people something like that. I know. 227 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:51.200 Yeah, not all Yeah, it's not happened all the time, but yeah, 228 00:20:51.279 --> 00:20:59.200 it's yeah, that's like a yeah, that's a whole business model. 229 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:03.920 There is go around and plug in like your affiliate links exactly, yeah, 230 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.279 exactly, affiliate links exactly. Yeah, I get I get it right. 231 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.319 You want to know whether or not this link is getting clicked on, and 232 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:14.039 you know where these users are coming from, you know, if they're actually 233 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:17.640 going as this tool, because maybe maybe you're like, oh, these users, 234 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:21.440 we're changing our content where this link goes, and right now it's pointing 235 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:22.720 to someplace, and we want to know, hey, are we're actually getting 236 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:26.880 links here so that we can make sure that the content is oriented better for 237 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.759 the audience that are coming in. I don't know, like, I mean, 238 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.680 there is something with tracking which is for sure problematic, but I do 239 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:38.920 think that and this is sort of the problem with the tech industry in general, 240 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:45.480 the overlap between use for a good purpose and use for a nefarious purpose, 241 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.079 Like it's the same tool, but you know your intent and what you 242 00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:52.000 do with it at the end of the day is it can be much different, 243 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.759 and there's no way to distinguish upfront, like what they're going to actually 244 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:04.519 do with that information. Yeah, that's that's one of the that's that's a 245 00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:14.000 whole nother podcast episode there. I'm going to stop talking. I mean, 246 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:15.400 I know it's for sure true. You know, Marius, I didn't. 247 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:19.000 I did notice that you you worked at quite a few number of different companies, 248 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.400 and so that experience must have really built up over time. Did you 249 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:27.039 notice anything significantly different in the sort of role that you were doing for different 250 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:32.240 companies at different stages or uh you know where they were at or how they 251 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:40.839 their approaches to DevOps. Yeah, no, I think the most challenging on 252 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:48.720 the website. Actually they don't know how to let's say, structure the teams, 253 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:59.000 how is the communication actually and actually what the responsibility means. Actually for 254 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:03.400 the devlops, this is the most most problematic in most of the companies. 255 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:07.839 They want the wops, but they don't know how to supplied actually the wos 256 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:12.359 and but in the end, yeah, the boves would be the same. 257 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:22.759 But yeah, most of the companies you join, yeah, they think to 258 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.400 let's say the books is different things than the other one. Yeah, some 259 00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:33.759 of them they think it's let's say, new new system. That mean some 260 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:37.599 of them it's sorry, yeah, it's yeah, yeah, I know, 261 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:42.519 but yeah, this is what what like? What does that look like from 262 00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:45.480 your perspective? You know, it's not it's not I mean I agree with 263 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.720 you for sure that it's not just happened or as ay, those are other 264 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.920 areas for other roles, but you know your perspective here, what what does 265 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:08.920 that really amount to for me? Yeah, it's let's say, I think 266 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:22.680 for me, it's just bringing the barrier barrier between let's say the application and 267 00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:32.400 the infrastructure. Actually, for example, I wanted to puy let's the infrastructure, 268 00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:34.920 so I should be able to play the infrastructure, but also I should 269 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:42.759 be able to deplayd application. So for me, the debopsites simplify the whole 270 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:49.039 warkflow let's say, from developed application to the prod application and including all the 271 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:56.400 tools set actually on the back end. That's me Actually. Also another example, 272 00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:04.759 let's say even the let's say the the person who's building the product doesn't 273 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:11.680 know about the infrastructure, but at least that person should have ability to grab 274 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:18.279 the tool set and then just click or just type of command and then deploy 275 00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:22.759 something that this one actually means for me at the box, Yeah, not 276 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:30.160 making for the let's say, getting the application from the person who developed and 277 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:36.680 then just deployed by your No, you should give the yeah, the let's 278 00:25:36.680 --> 00:25:42.440 say, the instructions and then hey, just to buy yourself to simplify, 279 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:51.759 Yeah, simplify the the workflow. Yeah, good application life. That means 280 00:25:51.960 --> 00:26:00.759 yeah, I know, it's combined little bit, I mean and it's using 281 00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:07.160 the same process like platform engineering, it'll be but at least, yeah, 282 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.799 increase the productivity, increase, let's say, but the experience. Let's say, 283 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:21.319 so you can you can have these processes to use it. Yeah. 284 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.759 Yeah. I think for me, the way I've been thinking about and this 285 00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:29.799 is sort of a new approach for me that's developed over the last couple of 286 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:37.319 years, is it's about putting in guardrails and creating a set of guardrails so 287 00:26:37.359 --> 00:26:44.000 that the application engineers can build, deploy, and ship as fast as they 288 00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.680 want to with wherever they're at and their expertise. And then I'm just going 289 00:26:48.759 --> 00:26:53.000 to put guardrails in the way so that they can't accidentally do something that they 290 00:26:53.519 --> 00:27:00.720 don't want to do. Yeah, like including your API key in the U 291 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:11.920 r L string or your link. Yeah, you can have. I struggle 292 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:19.079 that it is. Your job is never complete. You know. I want 293 00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:23.119 to interrupt you there real quick on that very point, because I get asked 294 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:32.759 by tons of people every week is DevOps still a valid career path or is 295 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:37.240 it a dead end? And and I think that point right there highlights the 296 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:45.839 fact that we will never be done with this Warren because every every every bad 297 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:52.519 path that we close just opens up the opportunity for someone to forge a new 298 00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:56.559 path that we have to close. I mean, I don't know if I 299 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:02.720 would to be so cynical. There's an aspect here for me that's about automating 300 00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.400 your job away and so whatever it is that you're doing, make that go 301 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:10.960 away. That either you go into the organization and you make it so it's 302 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:15.640 no longer a business problem or a tech problem or whatever, or you're building 303 00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:18.559 some tool around it so it's not education, it's there is a problem that 304 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.599 needs to be solved and making it so that something works super reliably, like 305 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:26.480 that CLI command et cetera. You don't own it, some other team owns 306 00:28:26.519 --> 00:28:30.400 it realistically, but you're improving it to such a point where it's automated. 307 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.440 And then there's still and then you're out of a job and you look at 308 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.319 the organization from the outside end. You're like, hey, look this other 309 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.400 thing is broken in the organization. Like let me be the person who bangs 310 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:47.599 are faced against the wall over and over again on that problem. Now you 311 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:51.319 know it's in the it's in the database space, or it's in the security 312 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.440 space. Because of what you're doing or there's a new tool out that's nice 313 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:59.640 and shiny that everyone wants to use or not. I think the bigger problem 314 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:06.400 that I see a lot is the organization has divested ownership in innovation to a 315 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:11.839 different team, and that team is divesting ownership in innovation because they're just trying 316 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:17.400 to automate whatever is in place. So there still has to be this aspect 317 00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.839 where you go out and learn about new tools through get up repositories out there 318 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.519 on the internet and find whether or not that's the best way to be going 319 00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:30.240 about it. Someone still has to be doing that and bring them in. 320 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.960 In the past, that role in my teams has been called a full stack 321 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:40.480 hipster. Ye. I mean, it's just the sort of person that ends 322 00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:44.680 up there and they can do a great job pulling this stuff in and they 323 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:48.119 go through every RSS feed that they can find, every email from every source 324 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:52.720 and think about these things and I think realistically injecting new ideas in because the 325 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:56.039 worst thing that you could do would be to create those guardrails that you said, 326 00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.559 well, and then those guardrails, you know, pointing you off a 327 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:03.200 cliff ten years in the future that you know, it's very difficult for even 328 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:08.519 people to see realistically. And one of the most challenging also in the biopside, 329 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:15.880 it's how to combine all the tools together because I saw, yeah, 330 00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:21.519 different let's say teams they put like this, the other ones like this, 331 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:29.079 all different companies has different It's hard. Yeah, hit somethingdeed. This is 332 00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:34.880 actually most for me, think this is most challenging is to grab these tools 333 00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:41.319 and put sort together. Actually, so that's a problematic, yeah for sure, 334 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:45.680 because you get like you work with really talented engineers and they take some 335 00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:52.319 different tools and build them together to create something. And you personally may have 336 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.640 experience with all those tools but never thought to use them this way. And 337 00:30:56.680 --> 00:31:00.799 so when you first into the room, you're like, oh my god, 338 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:07.160 should I be like impressed or scared? Nah? Yeah, there is for 339 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.200 sure, you know there is something and maybe I don't understand there's genius going 340 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:14.960 on there. I feel like something about both approaches isn't isn't the best? 341 00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.240 Like on one side, it's wow, they're using that tool for that like 342 00:31:18.279 --> 00:31:22.720 that, and on the other side, it's wow, they built that themselves, 343 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.200 like whatever it is. And so I think there's some old joke here 344 00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:32.519 about there never was the case that some engineer came into a team after being 345 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:37.559 recently hired and said, Wow, that last person's code in this domain, 346 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:45.119 it's absolutely fantastic. I don't want to touch it at all. One of 347 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.799 my favorite examples of that is I had this job a long time ago and 348 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:55.920 we we had our application was a web based application using ASP dot Net one 349 00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:00.839 point zero. And I know, right, but it gets better because the 350 00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:09.480 guys who built this, rather than just writing the ASP code the dot Net 351 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:16.640 code to render the website, they decided that they would store the dot net 352 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:22.519 code in a SEQL database, and so the web server would query the SQL 353 00:32:22.599 --> 00:32:28.960 database and it would get the dot net code in the response, and then 354 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.480 it would render that as the website. So if you wanted to like change 355 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:37.359 a frame or load a different image on the website, you actually had to 356 00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:42.039 update a stored procedure in the database to do that. And I was like, 357 00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:46.200 Okay, that's unique, that's novel. Well, we're not going to 358 00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:49.960 do that anymore. Just wait till get to the point where they're like, 359 00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.960 well, you know, what we found was that was inefficient. So we 360 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:57.880 ended up doing was creating our own tool that allowed you to edit that database 361 00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:07.200 in less sort of like a like a I see I you know, I 362 00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:12.000 saw the one where previous job where people got on the Microsoft train very quickly, 363 00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:14.279 and so they're like, oh, silver Light, that's a thing, 364 00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:19.240 and you know, for enterprise applications, we're building stuff for silver Light. 365 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:24.640 And it's very it's very sad when you're trusting in a large organization to maintain 366 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.759 a framework very long, and it gets I think for that one, it 367 00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:34.920 actually got discontinued in Google style before it was like officially out of the pre 368 00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.759 release, and so you're left with that sort of thing, and I don't 369 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.079 know what it is. It's maybe it's like on the both sides of the 370 00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.920 spectrum, right, small companies they have a couple of people who just don't 371 00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:47.599 want to use a lot of tools so they do it themselves, and also 372 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.680 large companies that have lots of people who are like, we also need to 373 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.559 do it ourselves. It's like there's got to be somewhere where someone's saying, 374 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:58.400 you know what, I know the perfect tool for the job. If only 375 00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:04.559 I knew it, the tool was Yeah. I think I think what you're 376 00:34:04.559 --> 00:34:08.199 getting at there is something that I've seen for decades in this career is there's 377 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:16.880 this overwhelming desire from corporations to create a tool to let non technical people perform 378 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.199 the technical roles. And I get that, because finding tech people is really 379 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:28.960 really hard and expensive. I get it. It's just I don't think it's 380 00:34:29.239 --> 00:34:35.639 been successful and still today. Right. That's why we're using the GPTs to 381 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:39.360 generate source code, right, so non technical people contribute as well to the 382 00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:45.280 bugs and our production platforms that one's actually working. Because I've got my GPT 383 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:49.719 bought making poor requests. As we're recording this podcast, it looks like I'm 384 00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:54.960 still at work. I mean you should. You should let us, I 385 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.239 mean all of us here, I think, uh listening want to know, 386 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:02.599 well, how exactly you did that, because I could definitely get some extra 387 00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:07.039 money on the side doing or three extra DevOps jobs. The key here is 388 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:10.480 my code is so shitty to begin with that they're not really going to see 389 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:19.400 anything except improvement by letting chat EPT do it. Oh no, I mean 390 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.760 maybe you should train it on some good repositories out there that have a list 391 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.880 of good tools, and you know, every once in a while throwing integration 392 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.159 with one of those just to make it look like, oh, you know 393 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:37.320 what you're doing. Oh, that's a Marius. Have you tried this? 394 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:42.440 Have you pointed chat GPT to your repo and said, hey, I'm wanting 395 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:47.119 a tool that does this? No, I did them all right, I'm 396 00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:52.079 going to check back next week with you. You got to imagine that, 397 00:35:52.280 --> 00:36:00.440 especially a company like open Ai, have used Marius's repository to actually funnel aims 398 00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:05.400 of products and companies and tools that can be utilized in this space. I 399 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.920 don't know how much. I mean, we know that getthub was for sure 400 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:12.559 a source of this. I mean get up as their own solution here that 401 00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:16.559 they have to be utilizing. So realistically, it's invaluable not just to human 402 00:36:17.000 --> 00:36:22.679 onlookers, but also our future robot overlords. Yeah, fair point, And 403 00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:27.239 we want to be in their good graces as much as possible. That's a 404 00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:32.719 roco's basil, right. But that's why I always tell Siri thank you every 405 00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:37.920 time I ask for a question. I think that's important to train and to 406 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:44.639 train them that that's the appropriate human interaction. So how much to put together 407 00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:49.480 and maintain a resource like this. How much time and effort do you spend 408 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:55.920 on this? I think a couple of hours per week, it's right. 409 00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.719 I yeah, so that's not huge, but that's still Look, it's one 410 00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:06.119 ongoing commitment. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things that strike me 411 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:14.320 from that is one that you can produce really quality resources without a lot of 412 00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.320 effort. And two, if I were to just put in that same amount 413 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:24.599 of effort, I could probably close down about two hundred browser tabs already thinking 414 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:28.920 about automated like, how can I create this tool that a lot of closes 415 00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:34.280 browser tabs and just moves the links into it like that? I just saw 416 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:37.199 that's where his thoughts were going. Yeah, I think. I think it's 417 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:42.639 also the experience, to be honest, working in many tools, you have 418 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.280 kind of idea that's actually that tool for example, or jump pretty quickly on 419 00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:52.800 that tool, and then I just read a little bit about that. Just 420 00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:58.280 let's say if in case you have options to play that, they can give 421 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:00.360 you a free account for example, you can play with that. So it's 422 00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:07.480 let's see. Maybe also because of these things are quick, you know, 423 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:13.800 yeah, yeah, so that's go ahead. One. Have you found anything 424 00:38:13.800 --> 00:38:17.440 particularly interesting in your you know, journeys through creating getting all these products and 425 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.119 you're like, wow, like I didn't know there was this tool that did 426 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:24.519 this thing. It would have helped me so many times in the past. 427 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:35.320 Yeah, yeah, I didn't know. There is a I don't know if 428 00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:42.599 you know getub, get lab CEI and if you are if you are to 429 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:47.199 run, let's say, uh, if you want to run, let's say 430 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:52.440 runners. I mean you see, I mean pipelines. You need to have 431 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:58.239 runners to run for sure. And I did not know that is I think 432 00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:04.320 it's was quite a pretty with this tool. And this tool actually simplify the 433 00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:09.039 management of the runners of the Good Club actually, and yeah, I actually 434 00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:15.559 experiment to that, give me account actually and experiment to that and looks like 435 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:21.440 it's very very interesting. Actually tool you can spin up runs quickly actually just 436 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:25.800 connected to the gidlub and then so yeah, there's some which is which are 437 00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:32.920 very good actually, yeah, and simplify the works that's definitely unsolved bootstrapping problem 438 00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.000 and develops maybe someone hasn't Yeah, how do you how do you have the 439 00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:42.880 runners already working before you show up on the first day, Because as far 440 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.960 as I can tell, there's a manual deployment that's got to happen where you 441 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:49.440 click some buttons somewhere and be like, Okay, finally I can let the 442 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.360 you know, machines do their work now without uh, manually playing with them 443 00:39:53.440 --> 00:40:00.360 over and over again. Yeah, that one is still in review because I 444 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:06.679 put a tag reviewed so the people can know what is the status of the 445 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:10.320 poll request and that on it's I think it's a review if I'm not wrong. 446 00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:15.920 But anyway, I'm playing with with that tool. So every prequest which 447 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:22.039 I have, let's say there's a new tool, I just play with that 448 00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.000 tool. I will try to play with that tool in case they give me 449 00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:31.559 this dis option or I just read the documentation if it's quite valid for me, 450 00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:37.519 and then yeah, just based on this, I can I can march 451 00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:44.960 actually that the changes. Yeah, but what's new tools? Yeah, you 452 00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:51.079 need to spend a little bit time. Yeah, yeah, because this Yeah 453 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:54.480 yeah, I mean it's not let's say, it doesn't take too much. 454 00:40:54.800 --> 00:41:00.079 But maybe because of the experience, I don't know. Yeah, I'm in 455 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.519 other spaces with especially physical products. I know companies will give you, you 456 00:41:04.599 --> 00:41:07.280 know, send you a copy of whatever it is so you can try it 457 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:13.920 out and post a hopefully glowing review on your stream or YouTube or whatever. 458 00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:19.280 I actually hadn't considered the possibility of that for for software tools. You know, 459 00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:22.320 I guess maybe here's my pitch right now. You know, come companies, 460 00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:23.400 you know, let us you know know, you know, give us 461 00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:27.119 a free version of whatever you've got, and you know we'll we'll test it 462 00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:32.280 out. I think it's a quite a great opportunity for them to get users. 463 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:37.239 Not just put a random promotional link that people can click on, but 464 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.880 actually, uh, you know you're willing to bring it in, talk about 465 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.239 it, actually test it out and use it and put it give the feedback. 466 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:49.960 I get that from my YouTube channel, Like companies will approach me and 467 00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.920 say, hey, will you try out our product and do a video on 468 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:58.679 your thoughts about it? Yeah, that work out so well so far. 469 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:06.280 Not really. Now, maybe that's not the right answer. I should say 470 00:42:06.360 --> 00:42:10.920 I haven't done many of them because for me, it's I know that me 471 00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:16.719 personally, like whenever I first look at a new tool, I'm like, 472 00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:23.280 oh man, this is cool, and I get I artificially inflate my excitement 473 00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:28.679 about it. But then whenever I come back the second time, I look 474 00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:30.840 at it from a more pragmatic point of view and say, well, is 475 00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:37.639 this really solving a problem that I have, or is this me playing with 476 00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:42.679 a tool pretending to solve a problem and that time and effort you know, 477 00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.000 for me, I just know me in my personality, I have to go 478 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.559 through that process before I can get a full accurate picture of it. And 479 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:55.159 the time and effort it takes to do that in a YouTube video just hasn't 480 00:42:55.199 --> 00:43:00.280 been a good fit for me. So I I haven't done Actually many of 481 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:04.480 those. I've been approached many times, but I haven't done it. There's 482 00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:07.960 a real challenge there, a time investment to really understand how a tool works. 483 00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:08.840 I mean, I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. I see 484 00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:14.880 something and I'm like, I don't want that. I mean, maybe it's 485 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:16.400 great, but I look at it, my first reaction is like, that's 486 00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:21.480 just extra overhead or extra effort to pull on yet additional tool. Like we 487 00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:25.599 have to remember that every time we had a tool, that's extra cognitive overhead 488 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.800 for everyone involved to have to think about and deal with, which is a 489 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.199 real concern, and the only way to reduce that overhead is by using less 490 00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.079 tools in some way. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of alternatives there. 491 00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:45.440 But I didn't the decision on buy versus buy versus by is also incredibly challenging 492 00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:49.159 to know whether or not a tool be the right one. One of the 493 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:54.119 things that keeps coming back to me I wasn't a methodology that I had a 494 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:58.320 lot of experience with early on in myine career is this idea of one way 495 00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:01.119 versus two way doors, where if you're trying to pick a tool that you 496 00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:06.679 want or even make a decision, if it's an easy, reversible decision, 497 00:44:06.800 --> 00:44:10.039 or the impact of that decision is low, then it doesn't matter which way 498 00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.599 you go, and you might as well just flip a coin and pick one 499 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.639 and go from there, because you can regret that decision and just make an 500 00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:22.679 easy change. But if there's a huge impact of the organization or you'll be 501 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.440 bought in for a long period of time, then you'll be forced to pay 502 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:29.559 that cost if you do make a mistake. But even then it's good to 503 00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:31.320 think about how to separate it out into multiple pieces, like can you make 504 00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:37.199 a decision at a smaller level instead of buying the whole tool and getting a 505 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:42.880 three year license deeal for that, and then that becomes the justification for continued 506 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.840 usage. Go with a one year license and then revisit after a couple of 507 00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:52.480 years of renewing it. I think I'd heard that before, but it's never 508 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.440 really stuck. But hearing you say it, I'm like, oh, yeah, 509 00:44:55.559 --> 00:45:00.280 that makes a lot of sense. Sometimes these things work on other people, 510 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:02.800 right, Like they get stuck in a decision and you got to figure 511 00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:07.519 out what the right words are to say to help them unstick themselves. I 512 00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.440 think another one that comes up very often is one tool to solve all of 513 00:45:10.519 --> 00:45:15.880 your problems. I think you may have heard of the single pane of glass, 514 00:45:15.800 --> 00:45:20.199 which I'm not a huge fan of, but I think it goes around 515 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.679 in a lot of the marketing team, sales teams, business analytics that realistically, 516 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.719 as a user, like I want to use my ID, right, 517 00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.800 Like I want to go in there, and that's the only thing I need 518 00:45:28.840 --> 00:45:31.559 to worry about, Like I like get the command line. I'm sure someone's 519 00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:35.639 like, well, how can you like the command line? But then we 520 00:45:35.719 --> 00:45:40.440 have a venuser right here, so but you know, like that's mine, 521 00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.079 right, Like I don't want to have to leave that tool unless I really 522 00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:45.760 need to, unless I'm testing a UI, and I obviously don't do that 523 00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:52.079 very frequently, but the same is true in other areas. So definitely consolidating 524 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:54.159 that can be helpful. But at the same time, if you're overutilizing a 525 00:45:54.239 --> 00:46:00.280 tool to do something that isn't necessarily meant to do or creates extra channel es, 526 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:05.239 it is better to have too in other situations for sure, Marius, 527 00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:09.800 what's your favorite what's your favorite tool that you've learned about as a result of 528 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:21.519 curating this website. Ah, it's sun stuck actually really right, an not 529 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:28.000 only you can do configuration management just putting a file on the selver, just 530 00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.480 dorink a lot of bunch, I mean, doing a lot of things. 531 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.920 Even if you have let's say, to pray some reasons in the cloud, 532 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:43.599 you can do that or let's say, type in a command in see a 533 00:46:43.719 --> 00:46:49.880 life from one thousand servers for example. At the same time, so I 534 00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:55.000 think for me, it's interesting how actually it's capable, Yeah, this tool 535 00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:01.400 and you can do a lot of things there. This one looks interesting, 536 00:47:02.559 --> 00:47:09.400 I mean most it's is the one which I like most. Actually, yeah, 537 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:15.000 right, I actually haven't used to myself. That's like a advanced version 538 00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:19.719 of like puppet chef Antable or something like that, And it does configuration management. 539 00:47:19.880 --> 00:47:23.800 Yes, exactly. It's similar with tensible, but the difference is UH 540 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.280 has a master. Actually it's working like a massive and slave. But with 541 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:37.960 the new version intends also what Exible is doing with SSA CHA. But yeah, 542 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:42.159 it's I use this tool, to be honest, to do a lot 543 00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:50.360 of things, for example, grabbing all the information from those CEREB it's in 544 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:53.199 the real time actually, because you have a slave for each of the servers. 545 00:47:53.239 --> 00:48:01.239 That's I had more than five hundred top five thousands, and it's hard 546 00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:06.559 to let's say, to keep eye on the services when it's failing. When 547 00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:09.719 you let's say, execute the sole stack for example. Uh, and I 548 00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:15.000 use this tool to grab the information in real time in the graph to see 549 00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.480 when it's failing. What is the server it's failing. What is the line 550 00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:24.599 it's failing of the states states it's state, it's the file Actually it's sol 551 00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:30.039 stack it's executing. So it's you can do a lot of things. Yeah, 552 00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:39.559 that's cool. Yeah, I have a tool which gives you at least 553 00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:45.719 expassibility. You can, let's say, do more things. Even let's say 554 00:48:46.840 --> 00:48:51.320 I mean you cannot do that in that time, for example, but you 555 00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:55.199 have a gate, you have a way you can extend for other things. 556 00:48:55.639 --> 00:49:00.159 I think it's the best tool, is the best to the Yeah, for 557 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:06.719 example, Kubernets, all of us, most Kubernets. Kubernet is not only 558 00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:10.480 just run the application, right, you can run jobs. You can run 559 00:49:12.719 --> 00:49:16.519 let's say, you can extend for other capabilities with the CRD for example, 560 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:21.159 you can keep the data by the way, yeah, as a as the 561 00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:25.280 objects at c D for example. Yeah, you can do a lot of 562 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:32.000 things. Yeah, it's yeah for sure. So what's the future of awesome 563 00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.239 DevOps look like? What kind of things have you got planned for it? 564 00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:45.239 Yeah? Yeah, the future of develops it's right. Now, First of 565 00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:51.400 all, you need to put price for each of the tool because yeah, 566 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:59.679 because most of them they're trying to put commercial let's say link and it's good 567 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:06.960 to have at least from the single view. The view you just enter the 568 00:50:07.000 --> 00:50:10.760 website and then see the the list. You just it's a it takes I 569 00:50:10.840 --> 00:50:15.519 mean, the decision. It's it's quicker if it's free, for example, 570 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:20.280 right, so you will see, uh, what is the price for that 571 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.000 tool? For example? The other one that I don't know if it's included 572 00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:30.639 in these as the books, but it's okay to be I think it's to 573 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:38.239 put a framework in place, actually a framework which brings the organizations how they 574 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:45.599 can adapt the bobs quickly and what are the steps, what are the tool 575 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.519 but the tools as an example, not let's say you need to use these 576 00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:53.800 tools, but at least they give this this This framework should give the let's 577 00:50:53.800 --> 00:51:00.280 say the management for example, to grab the bobs quicker in the com money 578 00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:05.280 for example, how the teams should be structured, how they should communicate, 579 00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:12.599 what are the tools, what are the workflows or process or what are the 580 00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:19.639 things they need to automate or whatever it's in the devil. It's it's better 581 00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:29.440 to have these including should it should be something complete, you know, take 582 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:36.039 this and then do do the devils into organization. Hm. I see we 583 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:37.639 were smiling a little bit. I mean there is something about that that scares 584 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:42.320 me not not having it. But like if I look at the Agile manifesto 585 00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:46.920 and then I look to see how the word agile is being used today or 586 00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:52.159 used incorrectly today, Uh, you know, I feel like everyone's sort of 587 00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:57.320 done the wrong thing with develops as well. So it's sort of an unfortunate 588 00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:01.800 situation that companies adapt what they're doing they don't understand a word or a mindset, 589 00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:07.199 and then map into what they're already doing or what they already understand. 590 00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:09.079 I think that's sort of just humanity, right, It's there's not a lot 591 00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:13.280 that can be down there. So I think having a roadmap for how to 592 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:16.719 actually implement that in your organization, I think there is value there. I 593 00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:22.960 can just see, you know, there'll be eventually a safe version of oh 594 00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:27.920 yeah, and in a last version, and I don't know how I feel 595 00:52:27.920 --> 00:52:35.760 about that. At least they can give the basic information. I don't know 596 00:52:35.880 --> 00:52:40.320 how they can start because I saw people I don't know what is the starting 597 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:45.719 point actually to adopt this or something like that. Or they can give you 598 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:51.840 high over let's say, I don't know, they can easy pick up maybe 599 00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:59.679 easy, but yeah, at least they have starting point there. Yeah, 600 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:05.719 I think it's I think one of the cool aspects of that approach is asking, 601 00:53:06.119 --> 00:53:08.840 like creating the framework from a why are you here perspective, like, 602 00:53:09.079 --> 00:53:14.599 Okay, you're interested in DevOps, but why what's the problem you're trying to 603 00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:22.280 solve? Because the answer to that might change the path that they're pursuing and 604 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:29.199 lead them to results quicker. He just wanted his end to talk about selling 605 00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:32.679 things and education and like where is your customer at right? You know, 606 00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:35.800 when they end up on a landing page, you know what are they looking 607 00:53:35.880 --> 00:53:37.639 for? Are they looking for? What is? Like I heard some cool 608 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:40.760 kids saying the term DevOps and I don't know what that means. I want 609 00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:44.639 someone to tell me what it is. And the difference of like, wow, 610 00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.039 you know, it's perfectly aligned with what we're currently trying to do. 611 00:53:47.119 --> 00:53:51.079 And we're innovators in the space and we want to know more. We want 612 00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:53.079 to know toolfless and other things that we can be doing. And this is 613 00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:57.920 a huge, a massive spectrum from one side to the other, and I 614 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.119 think capturing that is quite a challenge, right, Like even individual products go 615 00:54:01.679 --> 00:54:07.119 and have a very narrow mindset of what their audience actually looks. Like Mary 616 00:54:07.199 --> 00:54:13.079 said that, you know more of the expert practitioners who probably are looking for 617 00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:19.360 ways to convince their organization to implement develops more effectively, rather than the I 618 00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:22.639 don't know what develops is, but I'm sure we're doing it because we're a 619 00:54:22.679 --> 00:54:36.440 great company. By you also, I mean a couple of years, Uh, 620 00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:39.719 someone asked me in the interview, actually, what is the the bops? 621 00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:45.440 I explain a little bit blah blah blah. And he asked me, 622 00:54:45.679 --> 00:54:50.280 you are contributed to source? Yeah, I have I contribute, but mostly 623 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:53.119 let's say some of the bobs people they just give this as some of the 624 00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:58.880 bobs. And he told me why he didn't give this when I ask you 625 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:07.760 what is the wolves? I think and I think it's a good idea. 626 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:12.119 Actually, if you want to see what is that the wolves? Just keep 627 00:55:12.199 --> 00:55:15.480 the link. I don't want to answer, I just give this link. 628 00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:24.199 I feel like this is this challenge the other way around though, because people 629 00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:27.880 don't like reading things right, so like I feel like you have to make 630 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:31.920 a custom message for each person otherwise like oh you know what, that answer 631 00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:36.239 is one hundred percent defined at this, like just you want to go here, 632 00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:38.840 like trust me, just read this. And they still don't want to 633 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:45.599 do that. Yeah, what's funny? What's funny? Right on? Well, 634 00:55:46.000 --> 00:55:49.840 yeah, I think we've covered it, Like that's this is a super 635 00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:52.199 cool resource. Like I keep scrolling. I've been scrolling through it and looking 636 00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:58.800 at it as we've been doing this entire episode, and it's very very thorough 637 00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.199 it's easy to navigate. It's really really well done. So congratulations on that 638 00:56:02.239 --> 00:56:06.480 because you've been doing this. I was looking at the getubstat you've been doing 639 00:56:06.519 --> 00:56:09.280 this for like five years now. Yeah, it's a long time. Actually, 640 00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:14.480 yeah, that's commitment right there. That's impressive. And I think one 641 00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:20.800 of the cool things about that is that's five years of history and changing tools, 642 00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:25.280 adding new tools, removing older tools, with consistent updates. So I 643 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:30.559 think that alone just gives us a lot of value as far as being a 644 00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:36.039 relevant resource. And not only this, but it's help you. Actually, 645 00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:40.719 it's helped you so to see if that tool is still available in the market. 646 00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:45.880 You know, I saw some of the links. Oh the tool does 647 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:51.400 not exist anymore, or it's in the high mode or something like that. 648 00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:54.840 So it's it's it's nice. It's nice to help. Also this updated, 649 00:56:54.960 --> 00:57:02.400 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome. Well should we do some picks 650 00:57:04.199 --> 00:57:07.079 for sure? Right on, Warren, what'd you bring for us this week? 651 00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:13.639 Yeah? So I was reminded recently how the DEVOVS movement may have been 652 00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:17.519 started in the agile mindset, and actually before that was lean, which comes 653 00:57:17.559 --> 00:57:22.960 from manufacturing. So many people don't know about this Lean is all about eliminating 654 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:29.880 waste in organizations, most specifically manufacturing. And there's a book that really categorizes 655 00:57:29.920 --> 00:57:34.000 this, primarily called the Toyota Way, and it contains a bunch of principles 656 00:57:34.039 --> 00:57:38.199 they say management principles, but realistically they're how to achieve more effective flow in 657 00:57:38.760 --> 00:57:43.360 your development team. You can have lean software engineering. And I learned about 658 00:57:43.360 --> 00:57:47.039 this before agile realistically, and it's really affected my mindset and put me in 659 00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:52.480 a direction of it's not just about doing things quickly, but really understanding the 660 00:57:52.559 --> 00:57:57.719 overhead in any number of aspects. The one that I find most interesting is 661 00:57:57.960 --> 00:58:02.880 a product that's been delivered has a negative impact on your organization because until you 662 00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:07.039 start getting money in or delivering that delivers value to your customers, it's sitting 663 00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:12.679 on the shelf and it requires maintenance and upkeep in order to make sure that 664 00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:15.880 it's still effective. And so if a product isn't actually returning enough value, 665 00:58:16.119 --> 00:58:20.280 the best thing you can do for your organization is delete it. And I 666 00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:22.440 feel like that's a mindset that is lost on a lot of people, and 667 00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:28.320 being in the devov space, it's super critical for us to help remind others 668 00:58:28.360 --> 00:58:31.119 that there is it's not just free, Like you don't just write something once 669 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:35.840 and throw it out there and then you don't have to do anything after that. 670 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:42.159 Yeah, that's a very very valid point. Working a lot with early 671 00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:45.239 stage startups that, like I do, I advocate a lot like you have 672 00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:51.559 to define the success criteria, like this product, when we launch it within 673 00:58:51.719 --> 00:58:57.199 six months has to be meeting these objectives otherwise we're deleting it for that very 674 00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:04.760 reason. That's that takes some real discipline to actually achieve the like congrats, 675 00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:08.280 Like that's not easily done. Yeah, it's it's not easy by any means, 676 00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:14.119 because when you even if when you define those criteria, like when you 677 00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:17.840 get to the measurement day, like you're emotionally attached to this thing, and 678 00:59:17.960 --> 00:59:22.159 so then you try to like massage the criteria and say like, wow, 679 00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:24.840 we didn't really hit that, but we do have this and and you have 680 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:31.119 to be It works best when you're just brutally honest with everyone and are in 681 00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:35.559 a group of people where you can call each other out on your bullshit. 682 00:59:36.960 --> 00:59:39.159 I like, you know, I think what helps me here is I use 683 00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:43.719 the mindset. If we didn't have this anymore, you know, we're at 684 00:59:43.760 --> 00:59:45.000 the day, Like, let's let's take it. Put everything on the table, 685 00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:47.280 Like, we have no engineers, we have no product, we have 686 00:59:47.360 --> 00:59:52.599 no software done at all. Would we today hire a group of engineers to 687 00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:57.159 go and rebuild this thing by buying it off the shelf and buying them all? 688 00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.280 And often you're like, wait, no, actually I don't want to 689 01:00:00.360 --> 01:00:02.800 do that, you know, knowing what we know now and then that's a 690 01:00:02.840 --> 01:00:07.119 good indicator for what you should do and how to separate the current state from 691 01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:12.800 whatever mindset or unfortunate attachment you have to that. Right on, Marius, 692 01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:22.639 what'd you bring for a pick? No, fair enough, I'll give you 693 01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.639 a minute to think about it. I'll go next. So my pick, 694 01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:30.360 if you have been listening to the show recently, this one's not going to 695 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:37.239 surprise you on once again picking platform con. We've got the list of speakers 696 01:00:37.039 --> 01:00:40.280 are out on the website now, and so at the end of the conference, 697 01:00:40.280 --> 01:00:44.679 I'm going to be doing a live Q and a session with some of 698 01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:50.760 those speakers, asking them questions. So I'm treating this as a way to 699 01:00:50.960 --> 01:00:57.800 like get to like the humans behind the talks, you know, and learn 700 01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:01.159 like the people who are doing this and what what they're into and what drives 701 01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:06.239 and motivates them. So if they're specific questions you want me to ask them, 702 01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:14.320 hit me up on XAKA, Twitter or email or whatever place you see 703 01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:17.920 me hanging out online and let me know what your questions are. And platform 704 01:01:19.000 --> 01:01:24.039 Con is coming up in June. It's five days this week and five full 705 01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:30.760 days live streamed, one hundred percent free, tons of great speakers. Check 706 01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:34.199 it out platform con dot com. Yeah, I mean, don't miss your 707 01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.639 opportunity to bug Will on this, honestly, because I find a lot of 708 01:01:37.679 --> 01:01:39.760 the value at conferences is sort of the human interaction, the questions that come 709 01:01:39.840 --> 01:01:44.880 up afterwards. You can go lots of places and watch arbitrary content on YouTube 710 01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:47.039 and whatnot, so you know, don't if you see something there interesting, 711 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:52.480 definitely forward the question. Yeah, for sure. It's like so many of 712 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:55.599 the talks. You know, whenever we give talks, we are in a 713 01:01:55.639 --> 01:02:00.199 bubble and we talk about what we think is going to be interesting, and 714 01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:05.000 there's there's all kinds of questions, and sometimes there's just like questions like you 715 01:02:05.119 --> 01:02:07.960 see someone giving a talk and you're like, Wow, that person is doing 716 01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:13.000 something really cool. What could I learn from them? And this is your 717 01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.199 chance to ask those questions? All right, back to you, Marius, 718 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:22.280 Which guy can be anything? Can be anything? Yeah, content, you 719 01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:27.840 know, something great personal life or something technical if you prefer that, Yeah, 720 01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:36.079 I think going to some technical Actually, uh, I didn't experiment anything 721 01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.880 except the technical part because yeah, it's there is no type or other things. 722 01:02:42.559 --> 01:02:51.480 But yeah, but if you let's say you want to learn something, 723 01:02:52.440 --> 01:03:00.480 uh, you need to experiment. And by experiment you can none. You 724 01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:07.840 can let's say you can grab that, let's say piece very quickly. You 725 01:03:07.920 --> 01:03:14.760 can even speak about that. You can let's say you can build. Actually, 726 01:03:14.920 --> 01:03:21.360 so I think it's not you don't need let's say, well, it's 727 01:03:21.400 --> 01:03:25.679 not enough to read. It's it's better to experiment. Actually, and I 728 01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:30.960 think for all the people who are listening, if you want to, for 729 01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:38.960 the new people who actually want to, let's jump in specific area, it's 730 01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:46.639 not enough to read just experimentals. Yeah, one hundred percent agree, absolutely 731 01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:52.079 truth. All right, excellent, Well Marius, thank you for joining us. 732 01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:57.960 For everyone listening. Check out Awesome Develops, Awesome, dash Develops, 733 01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:01.960 dot x y z. Are you active on any social platforms? Hang out 734 01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:12.360 online anywhere? Marius GitHub blinked in but GitHub mostly Yeah right, awesome. 735 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:14.760 So if you want to reach out to Marius, if you can find him 736 01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:20.880 on GitHub and my website mons not x Y you see. Oh right, 737 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:29.039 huh, there you go. I like it. The simple domain names, 738 01:04:29.079 --> 01:04:34.039 they're getting hard to come by. Yeah, it's easy to remember. Yeah, 739 01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:39.119 but you know, one day, especially for you, Will, you 740 01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:45.840 may find your last name as t l D. But you know what's going 741 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:51.199 to happen. Somebody's going to like jump on Will first, and then I'll 742 01:04:51.280 --> 01:04:58.760 miss out again. Yeah, you have a you have a previous traumatic experience. 743 01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:00.559 Yeah, dude, it's me forever to get Will button dot com. 744 01:05:01.280 --> 01:05:06.840 I can imagine. Yeah, yeah it did, but that's story for another 745 01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:13.159 time. Marius, thank you for coming on the show. I really enjoyed 746 01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:16.199 the conversation. Lauren, thanks for joining me again. Appreciate having you here 747 01:05:17.320 --> 01:05:21.239 and for everyone listening. Thanks for listening, and we will see you all next week