1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,240 What's going on everybody? Oh wow, that's excellent. My voice cracks up 2 00:00:09,279 --> 00:00:15,160 in a very opening sentence. I'm fifty three, going in my third round 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,079 of puberty here, so welcome back to the show Adventures and DevOps. I'm 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,399 your host Will Button joining me in the studio or in parade. Welcome Wren, 5 00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:27,000 how are you? Man? Hey? Thanks a lot. You know 6 00:00:27,039 --> 00:00:31,359 what's interesting. I do a lot of public speaking, and one trick I've 7 00:00:31,399 --> 00:00:34,520 learned is that you're supposed to sort of say like hello to yourself, maybe 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,759 quietly before you actually start talking. But we were just coming a long conversation, 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,840 so I honestly don't know what happened there. I would that's that would 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,679 That's one of those things that I think would take practice, saying hello to 11 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,560 yourself, because then I'm gonna I'm gonna start overthinking it, like who am 12 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:58,479 I saying hello to? Like I mean, it's be you know, create 13 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,880 any sort of existential crisis here. But it's like, you know, I 14 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,439 mumbled to myself sometimes when I'm dealing with a difficult problem, so that sort 15 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,040 of comes a little bit natural to me. Anyway, the fact that I'd 16 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:12,640 like to share today is something important to remember. I think in the world 17 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:18,359 where we've started to convert to more to DevOps, which likely means agile working 18 00:01:18,439 --> 00:01:21,959 that means no sprands, no scrum or anything like that, we lose a 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:26,439 lot of ceremonies that come by default. And with a big release that happens 20 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,480 once a year or once every other year, we get we were reminded to 21 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:34,519 stop working on that thing potentially celebrate our successes. So it's still important to 22 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,480 do those things. As a matter of fact, if you release every day, 23 00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:42,319 you almost should have little celebratory dances every day. But I usually recommend 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:46,519 making sure that your team does something once who are, once a week or 25 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,000 once every couple of weeks to actually sit down and be like, we're actually 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,400 a good team, we actually got something accomplished, because I think it's really 27 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,519 important for the health of the team and individual team members. That's that's a 28 00:01:59,599 --> 00:02:05,599 really great point, man. That is I like that. I can't even 29 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,360 express in words how much I like that, because we spend so much time, 30 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,560 you know, feeling like we're under the gun, and you get something 31 00:02:12,599 --> 00:02:15,840 done and there's no time to celebrate. You're behind on other stuff already. 32 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,919 So I think that's a great tip. I'm terrible at doing it, but 33 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:27,680 I I think it's important, and you know, I think teams love this 34 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,039 too. So in previous engagements we would have like a beer every Friday or 35 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:35,319 something like that where we actually talked about what we were doing. I think 36 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:38,759 it's super important. Yeah, for sure. Well, onto today's topic. 37 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:46,560 We're talking about awesome DevOps and assuming that if you're listening to this show you're 38 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:50,719 interested in DevOps could be a bold assumption on my part, but I'm gonna 39 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,240 roll with it. And you know, like whether you're just getting started or 40 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,400 whether you've been doing it for a long time, there's a continuous learning curve. 41 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:06,680 So our guest today, Maria Stanka, has created a repo and has 42 00:03:06,759 --> 00:03:12,960 collected a bunch of resources and how to like break down and categorize the different 43 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:19,719 components and aspects of DevOps and it's really it's really a cool resource to go 44 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,360 through and just kind of reflect on, like, oh, I need to 45 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:24,400 work on this, so I don't need to work on that, or even 46 00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:30,560 like from a beginner's perspective of where do I even start. So with that 47 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:36,479 long ramble out of the way, Marius, welcome to the show. Thanks 48 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:43,680 thanks for Yeah. So what is your background in DevOps? How did you 49 00:03:43,719 --> 00:03:47,520 get started? How long you've been doing it? Oh? I think I 50 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:57,759 started a freelance project, was a small project, and I think that was 51 00:03:58,039 --> 00:04:03,039 that time. Is that popular? And I started to work let's as the 52 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:11,879 boks here, and then I realized how actually, how cool is that? 53 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,439 And then I'm doing from that time only the bops. I think I have 54 00:04:16,639 --> 00:04:24,439 more than ten years Yeah, the boks right, an, So what was 55 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:31,720 the inspiration behind creating the awesome DevOps repo? You know, I think all 56 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:40,319 of us, or most of most of us, we open the links all 57 00:04:40,399 --> 00:04:44,639 the time the browser. We have a bunch of tubs in the browser, 58 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:50,360 and you keep that I'll read this later, you know. And then I 59 00:04:50,399 --> 00:04:56,120 realized why I should not put this, let's in that document? From that 60 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,959 time I was working actually in the corporation, and in that time I spent 61 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:08,720 a little bit of time to take all the tabs and then putting that in 62 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,800 this let's say document, and then why not a website written around this? 63 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,279 And then I gave this to some of the colleagues, what do you think 64 00:05:19,319 --> 00:05:25,240 about this? And they they said, hey, it's a very good idea. 65 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,319 Actually one of them that pointed, hey, you need to put this 66 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:32,879 in this section something like that, And then I said, okay, let's 67 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:36,680 go into this in the in the in the in the open source space, 68 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,399 so then we can we can share this with a lot of people. There. 69 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000 You've got quite a lot of things. Yeah, there wasn't only my 70 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:55,480 contribution. Actually, most of I mean more than tell people actually contribute to 71 00:05:55,480 --> 00:06:03,839 this, and they're keeping let's say people to let's say let's say fok or 72 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:12,040 stars that's still keeping let's say beverage is five per day. But yeah, 73 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,720 it's it's grewing. Actually, yeah, it's green. Do you maybe this 74 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,759 is a trick question, but like do you know everything that's like in the 75 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:24,959 repository, Like are there things that have been added here? Like I don't 76 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,800 know what that tool is that someone just threw in there. That's a good 77 00:06:28,879 --> 00:06:35,160 question. Actually, I'm not I don't accept any any actually any resource in 78 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:42,839 that document. Actually I'm thinking not all of them, but some of them 79 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:48,480 might experiment also because I don't want to put any resource which is not related. 80 00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:51,920 Most of them, by the way, or not most of them, 81 00:06:53,000 --> 00:07:00,600 but some of them. They tried to put only four let's say promote something 82 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:05,480 like that, not accept. Actually, if you let's say, give a 83 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:11,800 free account, or if you give at least away, you can experiment, 84 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,439 or you can play, or you can use let's say the project, then 85 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:20,160 yeah, it's one of criteria I can accept. But yeah, I don't 86 00:07:20,199 --> 00:07:25,639 know all of them, to be honest, but at least I true. 87 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:30,199 I mean I I I checked actually all of them. Yeah, I checked 88 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,680 to see if it's related to the develops or it's related to the sorry. 89 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,959 Yeah, so yeah, yeah, And I think that's a I think that's 90 00:07:41,959 --> 00:07:46,360 a really good point for for everyone to acknowledge, especially if you're new to 91 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:54,000 DevOps, as you're never going to have one hundred percent competency across DevOps. 92 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,399 You know, there's you're going to have things that you are good at, 93 00:07:58,959 --> 00:08:01,639 and then your company or your job is going to shift and you're going to 94 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,680 lose those skills, but at the same time pick up new ones, and 95 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:11,079 then you'll circle back around, yeah, and get mad at yourself because you're 96 00:08:11,079 --> 00:08:16,240 like, man, I used to know terrorform a lot better than this, 97 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:22,480 but the skills have died off, and you've got to not only like brush 98 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:26,639 up on the skills that you used to have, but also terraform has added 99 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,199 a bunch of new stuff since the last time you used it or whatever product 100 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:33,360 you know. I'm just picking on Terraform. But the thing is like it's 101 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,840 continuous learning. Yeah, for sure, I like that. It's a cool 102 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:39,879 hack to actually find out about those things. Right Like if you follow one 103 00:08:39,879 --> 00:08:43,399 of these repositories, every time there's a new change or discussion, it's like 104 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,720 people are coming to you and telling you about that those things that are in 105 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,600 the industry that someone is using potentially and get extra experience and know where to 106 00:08:50,639 --> 00:09:01,720 look next. Yeah, so go ahead, and I so a few of 107 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,799 the let's say, people I know they want to start also in the bops. 108 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,840 I mean, what's the BOBS doing? How I can get started? 109 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,720 Just give dis repeal. Then they go to the road map for example, 110 00:09:16,759 --> 00:09:22,679 and then see what actually is the BOBS I think it's yeah, it's I 111 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:28,759 think it's helping you. It's helping them people who want to join in the 112 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:35,879 what to see? What actually is the BOB set oriented towards those beginner engineers 113 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:41,600 that inexperienced or would there still be value for those that have three, five 114 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:46,080 or twenty years of experience. I think it's more available to people who has 115 00:09:46,159 --> 00:09:52,480 more experience actually, because there are some other tools or at least the tools 116 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:58,840 for are in the its on the sections. Maybe they want to I want 117 00:09:58,879 --> 00:10:05,360 to to see what are I know? How for example the key station is 118 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,159 working, for example, but I want to see what are the tools? 119 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:16,440 Who? Actually it's based on my use case or it's based on it's based 120 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:22,080 on my cover my needs. Actually, then I go there and see all 121 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,159 the tools, and most of the tools are quite complex and you need to 122 00:10:26,279 --> 00:10:31,559 know at least you need to have that knowledge tool let's say, pick up 123 00:10:31,799 --> 00:10:37,120 quickly so you can take and fit in in your work. Yeah. I 124 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:46,960 think mostly it's most for the for the people who has experienced Yeah. So 125 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,360 for your own personal use how often do you find yourself referring to your own 126 00:10:50,399 --> 00:11:00,519 website for resources? U can you put? Yeah? How and do you 127 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,639 do you come back to your own to the to the awesome develops repo to 128 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:11,480 look up information for yourself? To be honest, I think keep the tabs 129 00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:24,200 open. Uh, but oh, but I'm going actually to check the c 130 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:30,200 I C. Actually I have a pipeline who actually check every week the link 131 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:35,559 for each of the repole, if it's still available, if it's responding or 132 00:11:35,639 --> 00:11:45,440 has actually TPS also, and I check then that time actually I checked this, 133 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:54,519 this, this, these links on the ripple. Yeah, I don't 134 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:01,279 use let's say this very often, but yeah, but it's okay to be 135 00:12:01,759 --> 00:12:05,840 as a record. Yeah, I mean I can imagine that there's some turn 136 00:12:05,919 --> 00:12:09,799 in the industry, but you've had to automate this. So that mean that 137 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,399 like a lot of legs get broken, like those products are no longer maintained 138 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,399 in some way. Do you have any like stats or just be like one 139 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:20,879 in five just don't exist after some time or something like that. Yeah, 140 00:12:20,919 --> 00:12:26,320 last time it's one which is Vulture cloud. It's not responding. But I 141 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:33,360 saw I saw some of them. They changed a link and maybe there is 142 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,679 a security issue something like that, or maybe the link really relates to something 143 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,120 which is bad request, let's say. But yeah, last time, just 144 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:50,519 one. I had also ten which are not responding one time and then I 145 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:56,519 get rid of them, yeah, or I change also the link in case 146 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:03,080 there is a ripot, I put the rep link that I'm using one of 147 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,080 the requests. Actually, when you put a link, it's okay to put 148 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:13,759 the GitHub because githubits remain there. If you put a let's say a customer 149 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,679 domain, sometimes it is broken because it depends on where you store this. 150 00:13:18,039 --> 00:13:26,120 But yeah, I had also ten no more than ten, well this time 151 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:33,639 just one which is not responding. Maybe they put a limit. I don't 152 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:39,919 know, I don't know. Yeah, and more than two yeah, more 153 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:46,080 than two hundred responding. Yeah, oh wow. Right on. So when 154 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:54,440 I look at the top level organization of this you have You've got like cloud 155 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:01,120 platforms and then file systems, automation, orchestration, database is like all these 156 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:09,559 upper level categories. How how did you decide that those are the top level 157 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:24,279 categories? Uh yeah, interesting question. Actually, I think based on so 158 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:35,360 when I look to the tool or platform, whatever, I just see what 159 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:41,519 actually for what is made. Actually, for example, let's take orchestration. 160 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:52,039 For example, Let's say we know, uh this, this orchestration is doing 161 00:14:52,159 --> 00:15:03,000 something like you can orchestrate let's say the work law or let's say process or 162 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:09,120 whatever. Just I just put Let's say I can find this set of tools 163 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:16,240 which which are doing similar things, for example, but they are for different 164 00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:20,879 needs, but they are doing different things. And then I I put a 165 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:28,399 tag based on this, this these are doing the same thing. Then if 166 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,279 it's let's say more than two, three, four, I just put a 167 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:39,720 tag, just put this in this section. This is from them. Yeah. 168 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Do you find that there's like a lot of tools that all on the 169 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,399 multiple categories, Like it's not so easy to quickly identify that, oh, 170 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:50,240 this is a data work it's like a database as a service or some sort 171 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:54,919 of data platform or something like that. Indeed, Yeah, yeah, yeah, 172 00:15:54,000 --> 00:16:00,360 I found for example, rg if you take Argo, it's not just 173 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:04,639 for the city. You can use for other things which has different components, 174 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,240 and it's hard to put only for the city you need to put Also, 175 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:17,919 there are category categories yeah, for the pipelines or data pipelines or something like 176 00:16:17,919 --> 00:16:23,799 that. But it's yeah, there there, I mean, maybe I'm I'm 177 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:27,679 actually curious about that. So rg CD primarily, I mean it's in the 178 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:30,759 in the name that it's the ICD. But you're saying that there's you know, 179 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:34,799 they focus on a bunch of different areas, you know, talking me 180 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:41,519 about that. For example, they have Argo workflow. You can you can 181 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,879 run multiple I mean workflow which you can run let's say batch jobs. For 182 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:55,120 example. They have worlds Argo events. You can do this let's say for 183 00:16:55,320 --> 00:17:03,879 different events. You can trigger different let's say workflows. They have also also 184 00:17:03,919 --> 00:17:07,559 with ugocity you can do not only the deployment, you can use for even 185 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:11,759 door key station. If you want to integrate this in the products. Let's 186 00:17:11,799 --> 00:17:22,480 say I want to deploy restar creation. Let's say let's this are creation in 187 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,759 the cloud for example, and then you want to deploy let's say every time 188 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,039 new new triggers coming in the argosity you can do. This doesn't have to 189 00:17:32,079 --> 00:17:37,319 be let's say for the continuous deployment or continuous delivery. So yeah, it's 190 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:44,839 for different use case. Yeah, even if it's built for the c c 191 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:51,240 D, you can do or other things. I think that's one of the 192 00:17:51,279 --> 00:17:59,160 benefits of having curated resources like this is you're able to to me. It 193 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:04,000 feels like you can get that information much more quickly from a curated list like 194 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:11,400 this than you can from the company's own website about their product. You know, 195 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,440 because like when you go to when you go to like someone's website, 196 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,279 not to pick on anyone, but there's like all the marketing and the fluff 197 00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:23,599 and the pipeline to get you to cough up your email address. They can 198 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:29,880 add you to their email list, you know, and it's hard to just 199 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,400 say, like, like, what do you actually do for a living? 200 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,480 I'm here on your page, what do you actually do? And then when 201 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,200 you figure that out, you know, like what else can you do? 202 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,559 And so I think that's where curated lists like this are really really helpful, 203 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,880 just because it strips down to here's what you're going to do. Yeah, 204 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:55,400 I mean, I think there's a ton of value there. Realistic by its 205 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,119 just we have one that we maintain for SoC two related resources and we get 206 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,680 requests to update it similar and realistically we have to go to the provider and 207 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,759 be like, you know, what are you charging for? How much is 208 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:11,039 it? What do you get out of there? And some of them just 209 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:14,359 can't even answer us straight, like they want their link to there, and 210 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:19,559 I'm like, you told us that you charge seven thousand dollars per user set 211 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,640 for some small companies, but that's not what your pricing page that, So 212 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,680 like where did you get that from? Where did you pull it? Like, 213 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:30,000 well, oh we have we're updating that, or the feature set doesn't 214 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,039 match what they're looking at. And so it's like a real challenge to even 215 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:37,079 like you're actually providing more than just the list curation, but also the definitions 216 00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:41,400 of those things and what's important there for people that are coming and looking for 217 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:47,160 that tool set and it's not marketing nonsense. How big of a struggle is 218 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,000 that for you? I know you mentioned it earlier talking about checking to make 219 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:55,599 sure that the links are not only accessible, but that there's a free version 220 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,599 of it. Do you find that there's a lot of a lot of places 221 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:08,960 where people try to slip in ways to get you into their sales funnel using 222 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:18,480 your site. I saw they saw a link, they open a fulle request 223 00:20:18,799 --> 00:20:23,240 in that request has was the link and the end of the link it was 224 00:20:23,279 --> 00:20:30,680 a code I think mostly Yeah, some of the people, Yeah, they 225 00:20:30,759 --> 00:20:37,480 try also to promote and based on this code, it's referring, hey this 226 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,960 this, this request came from these people something like that. I know. 227 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:51,200 Yeah, not all Yeah, it's not happened all the time, but yeah, 228 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:59,200 it's yeah, that's like a yeah, that's a whole business model. 229 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,920 There is go around and plug in like your affiliate links exactly, yeah, 230 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,279 exactly, affiliate links exactly. Yeah, I get I get it right. 231 00:21:07,319 --> 00:21:11,319 You want to know whether or not this link is getting clicked on, and 232 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,039 you know where these users are coming from, you know, if they're actually 233 00:21:14,039 --> 00:21:17,640 going as this tool, because maybe maybe you're like, oh, these users, 234 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:21,440 we're changing our content where this link goes, and right now it's pointing 235 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,720 to someplace, and we want to know, hey, are we're actually getting 236 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:26,880 links here so that we can make sure that the content is oriented better for 237 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,759 the audience that are coming in. I don't know, like, I mean, 238 00:21:30,759 --> 00:21:34,680 there is something with tracking which is for sure problematic, but I do 239 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,920 think that and this is sort of the problem with the tech industry in general, 240 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:45,480 the overlap between use for a good purpose and use for a nefarious purpose, 241 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:49,079 Like it's the same tool, but you know your intent and what you 242 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,000 do with it at the end of the day is it can be much different, 243 00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:56,759 and there's no way to distinguish upfront, like what they're going to actually 244 00:21:56,799 --> 00:22:04,519 do with that information. Yeah, that's that's one of the that's that's a 245 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:14,000 whole nother podcast episode there. I'm going to stop talking. I mean, 246 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:15,400 I know it's for sure true. You know, Marius, I didn't. 247 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,000 I did notice that you you worked at quite a few number of different companies, 248 00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:22,400 and so that experience must have really built up over time. Did you 249 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,039 notice anything significantly different in the sort of role that you were doing for different 250 00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:32,240 companies at different stages or uh you know where they were at or how they 251 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:40,839 their approaches to DevOps. Yeah, no, I think the most challenging on 252 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:48,720 the website. Actually they don't know how to let's say, structure the teams, 253 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:59,000 how is the communication actually and actually what the responsibility means. Actually for 254 00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:03,400 the devlops, this is the most most problematic in most of the companies. 255 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,839 They want the wops, but they don't know how to supplied actually the wos 256 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:12,359 and but in the end, yeah, the boves would be the same. 257 00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:22,759 But yeah, most of the companies you join, yeah, they think to 258 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,400 let's say the books is different things than the other one. Yeah, some 259 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:33,759 of them they think it's let's say, new new system. That mean some 260 00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:37,599 of them it's sorry, yeah, it's yeah, yeah, I know, 261 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,519 but yeah, this is what what like? What does that look like from 262 00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:45,480 your perspective? You know, it's not it's not I mean I agree with 263 00:23:45,519 --> 00:23:51,720 you for sure that it's not just happened or as ay, those are other 264 00:23:52,519 --> 00:23:56,920 areas for other roles, but you know your perspective here, what what does 265 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:08,920 that really amount to for me? Yeah, it's let's say, I think 266 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:22,680 for me, it's just bringing the barrier barrier between let's say the application and 267 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:32,400 the infrastructure. Actually, for example, I wanted to puy let's the infrastructure, 268 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,920 so I should be able to play the infrastructure, but also I should 269 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:42,759 be able to deplayd application. So for me, the debopsites simplify the whole 270 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:49,039 warkflow let's say, from developed application to the prod application and including all the 271 00:24:49,079 --> 00:24:56,400 tools set actually on the back end. That's me Actually. Also another example, 272 00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:04,759 let's say even the let's say the the person who's building the product doesn't 273 00:25:04,759 --> 00:25:11,680 know about the infrastructure, but at least that person should have ability to grab 274 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:18,279 the tool set and then just click or just type of command and then deploy 275 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:22,759 something that this one actually means for me at the box, Yeah, not 276 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:30,160 making for the let's say, getting the application from the person who developed and 277 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:36,680 then just deployed by your No, you should give the yeah, the let's 278 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:42,440 say, the instructions and then hey, just to buy yourself to simplify, 279 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:51,759 Yeah, simplify the the workflow. Yeah, good application life. That means 280 00:25:51,960 --> 00:26:00,759 yeah, I know, it's combined little bit, I mean and it's using 281 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:07,160 the same process like platform engineering, it'll be but at least, yeah, 282 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,799 increase the productivity, increase, let's say, but the experience. Let's say, 283 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:21,319 so you can you can have these processes to use it. Yeah. 284 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,759 Yeah. I think for me, the way I've been thinking about and this 285 00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:29,799 is sort of a new approach for me that's developed over the last couple of 286 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:37,319 years, is it's about putting in guardrails and creating a set of guardrails so 287 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:44,000 that the application engineers can build, deploy, and ship as fast as they 288 00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:48,680 want to with wherever they're at and their expertise. And then I'm just going 289 00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:53,000 to put guardrails in the way so that they can't accidentally do something that they 290 00:26:53,519 --> 00:27:00,720 don't want to do. Yeah, like including your API key in the U 291 00:27:00,839 --> 00:27:11,920 r L string or your link. Yeah, you can have. I struggle 292 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:19,079 that it is. Your job is never complete. You know. I want 293 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:23,119 to interrupt you there real quick on that very point, because I get asked 294 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:32,759 by tons of people every week is DevOps still a valid career path or is 295 00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:37,240 it a dead end? And and I think that point right there highlights the 296 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:45,839 fact that we will never be done with this Warren because every every every bad 297 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:52,519 path that we close just opens up the opportunity for someone to forge a new 298 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:56,559 path that we have to close. I mean, I don't know if I 299 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:02,720 would to be so cynical. There's an aspect here for me that's about automating 300 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,400 your job away and so whatever it is that you're doing, make that go 301 00:28:06,519 --> 00:28:10,960 away. That either you go into the organization and you make it so it's 302 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,640 no longer a business problem or a tech problem or whatever, or you're building 303 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,559 some tool around it so it's not education, it's there is a problem that 304 00:28:18,599 --> 00:28:22,599 needs to be solved and making it so that something works super reliably, like 305 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,480 that CLI command et cetera. You don't own it, some other team owns 306 00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:30,400 it realistically, but you're improving it to such a point where it's automated. 307 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,440 And then there's still and then you're out of a job and you look at 308 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,319 the organization from the outside end. You're like, hey, look this other 309 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,400 thing is broken in the organization. Like let me be the person who bangs 310 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:47,599 are faced against the wall over and over again on that problem. Now you 311 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,319 know it's in the it's in the database space, or it's in the security 312 00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:55,440 space. Because of what you're doing or there's a new tool out that's nice 313 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,640 and shiny that everyone wants to use or not. I think the bigger problem 314 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:06,400 that I see a lot is the organization has divested ownership in innovation to a 315 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,839 different team, and that team is divesting ownership in innovation because they're just trying 316 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:17,400 to automate whatever is in place. So there still has to be this aspect 317 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:22,839 where you go out and learn about new tools through get up repositories out there 318 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,519 on the internet and find whether or not that's the best way to be going 319 00:29:26,559 --> 00:29:30,240 about it. Someone still has to be doing that and bring them in. 320 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,960 In the past, that role in my teams has been called a full stack 321 00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:40,480 hipster. Ye. I mean, it's just the sort of person that ends 322 00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:44,680 up there and they can do a great job pulling this stuff in and they 323 00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:48,119 go through every RSS feed that they can find, every email from every source 324 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:52,720 and think about these things and I think realistically injecting new ideas in because the 325 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,039 worst thing that you could do would be to create those guardrails that you said, 326 00:29:56,039 --> 00:29:59,559 well, and then those guardrails, you know, pointing you off a 327 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,200 cliff ten years in the future that you know, it's very difficult for even 328 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,519 people to see realistically. And one of the most challenging also in the biopside, 329 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,880 it's how to combine all the tools together because I saw, yeah, 330 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:21,519 different let's say teams they put like this, the other ones like this, 331 00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:29,079 all different companies has different It's hard. Yeah, hit somethingdeed. This is 332 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,880 actually most for me, think this is most challenging is to grab these tools 333 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:41,319 and put sort together. Actually, so that's a problematic, yeah for sure, 334 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,680 because you get like you work with really talented engineers and they take some 335 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:52,319 different tools and build them together to create something. And you personally may have 336 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,640 experience with all those tools but never thought to use them this way. And 337 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,799 so when you first into the room, you're like, oh my god, 338 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:07,160 should I be like impressed or scared? Nah? Yeah, there is for 339 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,200 sure, you know there is something and maybe I don't understand there's genius going 340 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,960 on there. I feel like something about both approaches isn't isn't the best? 341 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,240 Like on one side, it's wow, they're using that tool for that like 342 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:22,720 that, and on the other side, it's wow, they built that themselves, 343 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,200 like whatever it is. And so I think there's some old joke here 344 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:32,519 about there never was the case that some engineer came into a team after being 345 00:31:32,559 --> 00:31:37,559 recently hired and said, Wow, that last person's code in this domain, 346 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:45,119 it's absolutely fantastic. I don't want to touch it at all. One of 347 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,799 my favorite examples of that is I had this job a long time ago and 348 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:55,920 we we had our application was a web based application using ASP dot Net one 349 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,839 point zero. And I know, right, but it gets better because the 350 00:32:01,839 --> 00:32:09,480 guys who built this, rather than just writing the ASP code the dot Net 351 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:16,640 code to render the website, they decided that they would store the dot net 352 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:22,519 code in a SEQL database, and so the web server would query the SQL 353 00:32:22,599 --> 00:32:28,960 database and it would get the dot net code in the response, and then 354 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,480 it would render that as the website. So if you wanted to like change 355 00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:37,359 a frame or load a different image on the website, you actually had to 356 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,039 update a stored procedure in the database to do that. And I was like, 357 00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:46,200 Okay, that's unique, that's novel. Well, we're not going to 358 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,960 do that anymore. Just wait till get to the point where they're like, 359 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,960 well, you know, what we found was that was inefficient. So we 360 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:57,880 ended up doing was creating our own tool that allowed you to edit that database 361 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:07,200 in less sort of like a like a I see I you know, I 362 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:12,000 saw the one where previous job where people got on the Microsoft train very quickly, 363 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,279 and so they're like, oh, silver Light, that's a thing, 364 00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:19,240 and you know, for enterprise applications, we're building stuff for silver Light. 365 00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:24,640 And it's very it's very sad when you're trusting in a large organization to maintain 366 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,759 a framework very long, and it gets I think for that one, it 367 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:34,920 actually got discontinued in Google style before it was like officially out of the pre 368 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,759 release, and so you're left with that sort of thing, and I don't 369 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:42,079 know what it is. It's maybe it's like on the both sides of the 370 00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:45,920 spectrum, right, small companies they have a couple of people who just don't 371 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,599 want to use a lot of tools so they do it themselves, and also 372 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,680 large companies that have lots of people who are like, we also need to 373 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,559 do it ourselves. It's like there's got to be somewhere where someone's saying, 374 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,400 you know what, I know the perfect tool for the job. If only 375 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,559 I knew it, the tool was Yeah. I think I think what you're 376 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:08,199 getting at there is something that I've seen for decades in this career is there's 377 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:16,880 this overwhelming desire from corporations to create a tool to let non technical people perform 378 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,199 the technical roles. And I get that, because finding tech people is really 379 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:28,960 really hard and expensive. I get it. It's just I don't think it's 380 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:35,639 been successful and still today. Right. That's why we're using the GPTs to 381 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,360 generate source code, right, so non technical people contribute as well to the 382 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,280 bugs and our production platforms that one's actually working. Because I've got my GPT 383 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,719 bought making poor requests. As we're recording this podcast, it looks like I'm 384 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,960 still at work. I mean you should. You should let us, I 385 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,239 mean all of us here, I think, uh listening want to know, 386 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,599 well, how exactly you did that, because I could definitely get some extra 387 00:35:02,679 --> 00:35:07,039 money on the side doing or three extra DevOps jobs. The key here is 388 00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,480 my code is so shitty to begin with that they're not really going to see 389 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:19,400 anything except improvement by letting chat EPT do it. Oh no, I mean 390 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,760 maybe you should train it on some good repositories out there that have a list 391 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,880 of good tools, and you know, every once in a while throwing integration 392 00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:31,159 with one of those just to make it look like, oh, you know 393 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:37,320 what you're doing. Oh, that's a Marius. Have you tried this? 394 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,440 Have you pointed chat GPT to your repo and said, hey, I'm wanting 395 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:47,119 a tool that does this? No, I did them all right, I'm 396 00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:52,079 going to check back next week with you. You got to imagine that, 397 00:35:52,280 --> 00:36:00,440 especially a company like open Ai, have used Marius's repository to actually funnel aims 398 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:05,400 of products and companies and tools that can be utilized in this space. I 399 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,920 don't know how much. I mean, we know that getthub was for sure 400 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,559 a source of this. I mean get up as their own solution here that 401 00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:16,559 they have to be utilizing. So realistically, it's invaluable not just to human 402 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,679 onlookers, but also our future robot overlords. Yeah, fair point, And 403 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:27,239 we want to be in their good graces as much as possible. That's a 404 00:36:27,519 --> 00:36:32,719 roco's basil, right. But that's why I always tell Siri thank you every 405 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:37,920 time I ask for a question. I think that's important to train and to 406 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:44,639 train them that that's the appropriate human interaction. So how much to put together 407 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,480 and maintain a resource like this. How much time and effort do you spend 408 00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:55,920 on this? I think a couple of hours per week, it's right. 409 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,719 I yeah, so that's not huge, but that's still Look, it's one 410 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:06,119 ongoing commitment. Yeah. I think there's a couple of things that strike me 411 00:37:06,679 --> 00:37:14,320 from that is one that you can produce really quality resources without a lot of 412 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,320 effort. And two, if I were to just put in that same amount 413 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:24,599 of effort, I could probably close down about two hundred browser tabs already thinking 414 00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:28,920 about automated like, how can I create this tool that a lot of closes 415 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:34,280 browser tabs and just moves the links into it like that? I just saw 416 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,199 that's where his thoughts were going. Yeah, I think. I think it's 417 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,639 also the experience, to be honest, working in many tools, you have 418 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,280 kind of idea that's actually that tool for example, or jump pretty quickly on 419 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,800 that tool, and then I just read a little bit about that. Just 420 00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:58,280 let's say if in case you have options to play that, they can give 421 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,360 you a free account for example, you can play with that. So it's 422 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,480 let's see. Maybe also because of these things are quick, you know, 423 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:13,800 yeah, yeah, so that's go ahead. One. Have you found anything 424 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,440 particularly interesting in your you know, journeys through creating getting all these products and 425 00:38:17,519 --> 00:38:22,119 you're like, wow, like I didn't know there was this tool that did 426 00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:24,519 this thing. It would have helped me so many times in the past. 427 00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:35,320 Yeah, yeah, I didn't know. There is a I don't know if 428 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:42,599 you know getub, get lab CEI and if you are if you are to 429 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,199 run, let's say, uh, if you want to run, let's say 430 00:38:47,519 --> 00:38:52,440 runners. I mean you see, I mean pipelines. You need to have 431 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:58,239 runners to run for sure. And I did not know that is I think 432 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:04,320 it's was quite a pretty with this tool. And this tool actually simplify the 433 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:09,039 management of the runners of the Good Club actually, and yeah, I actually 434 00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:15,559 experiment to that, give me account actually and experiment to that and looks like 435 00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:21,440 it's very very interesting. Actually tool you can spin up runs quickly actually just 436 00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:25,800 connected to the gidlub and then so yeah, there's some which is which are 437 00:39:27,159 --> 00:39:32,920 very good actually, yeah, and simplify the works that's definitely unsolved bootstrapping problem 438 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,000 and develops maybe someone hasn't Yeah, how do you how do you have the 439 00:39:37,119 --> 00:39:42,880 runners already working before you show up on the first day, Because as far 440 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,960 as I can tell, there's a manual deployment that's got to happen where you 441 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,440 click some buttons somewhere and be like, Okay, finally I can let the 442 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,360 you know, machines do their work now without uh, manually playing with them 443 00:39:53,440 --> 00:40:00,360 over and over again. Yeah, that one is still in review because I 444 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:06,679 put a tag reviewed so the people can know what is the status of the 445 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,320 poll request and that on it's I think it's a review if I'm not wrong. 446 00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:15,920 But anyway, I'm playing with with that tool. So every prequest which 447 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:22,039 I have, let's say there's a new tool, I just play with that 448 00:40:22,119 --> 00:40:24,000 tool. I will try to play with that tool in case they give me 449 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:31,559 this dis option or I just read the documentation if it's quite valid for me, 450 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,519 and then yeah, just based on this, I can I can march 451 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:44,960 actually that the changes. Yeah, but what's new tools? Yeah, you 452 00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:51,079 need to spend a little bit time. Yeah, yeah, because this Yeah 453 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,480 yeah, I mean it's not let's say, it doesn't take too much. 454 00:40:54,800 --> 00:41:00,079 But maybe because of the experience, I don't know. Yeah, I'm in 455 00:41:00,199 --> 00:41:04,519 other spaces with especially physical products. I know companies will give you, you 456 00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:07,280 know, send you a copy of whatever it is so you can try it 457 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:13,920 out and post a hopefully glowing review on your stream or YouTube or whatever. 458 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,280 I actually hadn't considered the possibility of that for for software tools. You know, 459 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,320 I guess maybe here's my pitch right now. You know, come companies, 460 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,400 you know, let us you know know, you know, give us 461 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,119 a free version of whatever you've got, and you know we'll we'll test it 462 00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:32,280 out. I think it's a quite a great opportunity for them to get users. 463 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,239 Not just put a random promotional link that people can click on, but 464 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,880 actually, uh, you know you're willing to bring it in, talk about 465 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:45,239 it, actually test it out and use it and put it give the feedback. 466 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,960 I get that from my YouTube channel, Like companies will approach me and 467 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,920 say, hey, will you try out our product and do a video on 468 00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:58,679 your thoughts about it? Yeah, that work out so well so far. 469 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:06,280 Not really. Now, maybe that's not the right answer. I should say 470 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,920 I haven't done many of them because for me, it's I know that me 471 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,719 personally, like whenever I first look at a new tool, I'm like, 472 00:42:17,079 --> 00:42:23,280 oh man, this is cool, and I get I artificially inflate my excitement 473 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:28,679 about it. But then whenever I come back the second time, I look 474 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,840 at it from a more pragmatic point of view and say, well, is 475 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:37,639 this really solving a problem that I have, or is this me playing with 476 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,679 a tool pretending to solve a problem and that time and effort you know, 477 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,000 for me, I just know me in my personality, I have to go 478 00:42:45,119 --> 00:42:50,559 through that process before I can get a full accurate picture of it. And 479 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,159 the time and effort it takes to do that in a YouTube video just hasn't 480 00:42:55,199 --> 00:43:00,280 been a good fit for me. So I I haven't done Actually many of 481 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,480 those. I've been approached many times, but I haven't done it. There's 482 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,960 a real challenge there, a time investment to really understand how a tool works. 483 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:08,840 I mean, I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum. I see 484 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:14,880 something and I'm like, I don't want that. I mean, maybe it's 485 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,400 great, but I look at it, my first reaction is like, that's 486 00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:21,480 just extra overhead or extra effort to pull on yet additional tool. Like we 487 00:43:21,559 --> 00:43:25,599 have to remember that every time we had a tool, that's extra cognitive overhead 488 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:30,800 for everyone involved to have to think about and deal with, which is a 489 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,199 real concern, and the only way to reduce that overhead is by using less 490 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,079 tools in some way. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of alternatives there. 491 00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:45,440 But I didn't the decision on buy versus buy versus by is also incredibly challenging 492 00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:49,159 to know whether or not a tool be the right one. One of the 493 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:54,119 things that keeps coming back to me I wasn't a methodology that I had a 494 00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:58,320 lot of experience with early on in myine career is this idea of one way 495 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,119 versus two way doors, where if you're trying to pick a tool that you 496 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,679 want or even make a decision, if it's an easy, reversible decision, 497 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,039 or the impact of that decision is low, then it doesn't matter which way 498 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:13,599 you go, and you might as well just flip a coin and pick one 499 00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:19,639 and go from there, because you can regret that decision and just make an 500 00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,679 easy change. But if there's a huge impact of the organization or you'll be 501 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,440 bought in for a long period of time, then you'll be forced to pay 502 00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:29,559 that cost if you do make a mistake. But even then it's good to 503 00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:31,320 think about how to separate it out into multiple pieces, like can you make 504 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:37,199 a decision at a smaller level instead of buying the whole tool and getting a 505 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,880 three year license deeal for that, and then that becomes the justification for continued 506 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,840 usage. Go with a one year license and then revisit after a couple of 507 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:52,480 years of renewing it. I think I'd heard that before, but it's never 508 00:44:52,559 --> 00:44:55,440 really stuck. But hearing you say it, I'm like, oh, yeah, 509 00:44:55,559 --> 00:45:00,280 that makes a lot of sense. Sometimes these things work on other people, 510 00:45:00,599 --> 00:45:02,800 right, Like they get stuck in a decision and you got to figure 511 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:07,519 out what the right words are to say to help them unstick themselves. I 512 00:45:07,599 --> 00:45:10,440 think another one that comes up very often is one tool to solve all of 513 00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:15,880 your problems. I think you may have heard of the single pane of glass, 514 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,199 which I'm not a huge fan of, but I think it goes around 515 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:23,679 in a lot of the marketing team, sales teams, business analytics that realistically, 516 00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:25,719 as a user, like I want to use my ID, right, 517 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,800 Like I want to go in there, and that's the only thing I need 518 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,559 to worry about, Like I like get the command line. I'm sure someone's 519 00:45:31,679 --> 00:45:35,639 like, well, how can you like the command line? But then we 520 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:40,440 have a venuser right here, so but you know, like that's mine, 521 00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:44,079 right, Like I don't want to have to leave that tool unless I really 522 00:45:44,159 --> 00:45:45,760 need to, unless I'm testing a UI, and I obviously don't do that 523 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:52,079 very frequently, but the same is true in other areas. So definitely consolidating 524 00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,159 that can be helpful. But at the same time, if you're overutilizing a 525 00:45:54,239 --> 00:46:00,280 tool to do something that isn't necessarily meant to do or creates extra channel es, 526 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:05,239 it is better to have too in other situations for sure, Marius, 527 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,800 what's your favorite what's your favorite tool that you've learned about as a result of 528 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:21,519 curating this website. Ah, it's sun stuck actually really right, an not 529 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:28,000 only you can do configuration management just putting a file on the selver, just 530 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,480 dorink a lot of bunch, I mean, doing a lot of things. 531 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,920 Even if you have let's say, to pray some reasons in the cloud, 532 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:43,599 you can do that or let's say, type in a command in see a 533 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,880 life from one thousand servers for example. At the same time, so I 534 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:55,000 think for me, it's interesting how actually it's capable, Yeah, this tool 535 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,400 and you can do a lot of things there. This one looks interesting, 536 00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:09,400 I mean most it's is the one which I like most. Actually, yeah, 537 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,000 right, I actually haven't used to myself. That's like a advanced version 538 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:19,719 of like puppet chef Antable or something like that, And it does configuration management. 539 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,800 Yes, exactly. It's similar with tensible, but the difference is UH 540 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:30,280 has a master. Actually it's working like a massive and slave. But with 541 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:37,960 the new version intends also what Exible is doing with SSA CHA. But yeah, 542 00:47:37,079 --> 00:47:42,159 it's I use this tool, to be honest, to do a lot 543 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:50,360 of things, for example, grabbing all the information from those CEREB it's in 544 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:53,199 the real time actually, because you have a slave for each of the servers. 545 00:47:53,239 --> 00:48:01,239 That's I had more than five hundred top five thousands, and it's hard 546 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,559 to let's say, to keep eye on the services when it's failing. When 547 00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:09,719 you let's say, execute the sole stack for example. Uh, and I 548 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:15,000 use this tool to grab the information in real time in the graph to see 549 00:48:15,119 --> 00:48:17,480 when it's failing. What is the server it's failing. What is the line 550 00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:24,599 it's failing of the states states it's state, it's the file Actually it's sol 551 00:48:24,639 --> 00:48:30,039 stack it's executing. So it's you can do a lot of things. Yeah, 552 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:39,559 that's cool. Yeah, I have a tool which gives you at least 553 00:48:39,639 --> 00:48:45,719 expassibility. You can, let's say, do more things. Even let's say 554 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:51,320 I mean you cannot do that in that time, for example, but you 555 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,199 have a gate, you have a way you can extend for other things. 556 00:48:55,639 --> 00:49:00,159 I think it's the best tool, is the best to the Yeah, for 557 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:06,719 example, Kubernets, all of us, most Kubernets. Kubernet is not only 558 00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:10,480 just run the application, right, you can run jobs. You can run 559 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,519 let's say, you can extend for other capabilities with the CRD for example, 560 00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:21,159 you can keep the data by the way, yeah, as a as the 561 00:49:21,199 --> 00:49:25,280 objects at c D for example. Yeah, you can do a lot of 562 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:32,000 things. Yeah, it's yeah for sure. So what's the future of awesome 563 00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:35,239 DevOps look like? What kind of things have you got planned for it? 564 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:45,239 Yeah? Yeah, the future of develops it's right. Now, First of 565 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:51,400 all, you need to put price for each of the tool because yeah, 566 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:59,679 because most of them they're trying to put commercial let's say link and it's good 567 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:06,960 to have at least from the single view. The view you just enter the 568 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,760 website and then see the the list. You just it's a it takes I 569 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:15,519 mean, the decision. It's it's quicker if it's free, for example, 570 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,280 right, so you will see, uh, what is the price for that 571 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,000 tool? For example? The other one that I don't know if it's included 572 00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:30,639 in these as the books, but it's okay to be I think it's to 573 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:38,239 put a framework in place, actually a framework which brings the organizations how they 574 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:45,599 can adapt the bobs quickly and what are the steps, what are the tool 575 00:50:45,679 --> 00:50:49,519 but the tools as an example, not let's say you need to use these 576 00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:53,800 tools, but at least they give this this This framework should give the let's 577 00:50:53,800 --> 00:51:00,280 say the management for example, to grab the bobs quicker in the com money 578 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,280 for example, how the teams should be structured, how they should communicate, 579 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:12,599 what are the tools, what are the workflows or process or what are the 580 00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:19,639 things they need to automate or whatever it's in the devil. It's it's better 581 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:29,440 to have these including should it should be something complete, you know, take 582 00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:36,039 this and then do do the devils into organization. Hm. I see we 583 00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:37,639 were smiling a little bit. I mean there is something about that that scares 584 00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:42,320 me not not having it. But like if I look at the Agile manifesto 585 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,920 and then I look to see how the word agile is being used today or 586 00:51:47,119 --> 00:51:52,159 used incorrectly today, Uh, you know, I feel like everyone's sort of 587 00:51:52,199 --> 00:51:57,320 done the wrong thing with develops as well. So it's sort of an unfortunate 588 00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,800 situation that companies adapt what they're doing they don't understand a word or a mindset, 589 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:07,199 and then map into what they're already doing or what they already understand. 590 00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,079 I think that's sort of just humanity, right, It's there's not a lot 591 00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:13,280 that can be down there. So I think having a roadmap for how to 592 00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:16,719 actually implement that in your organization, I think there is value there. I 593 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:22,960 can just see, you know, there'll be eventually a safe version of oh 594 00:52:22,039 --> 00:52:27,920 yeah, and in a last version, and I don't know how I feel 595 00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:35,760 about that. At least they can give the basic information. I don't know 596 00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,320 how they can start because I saw people I don't know what is the starting 597 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:45,719 point actually to adopt this or something like that. Or they can give you 598 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:51,840 high over let's say, I don't know, they can easy pick up maybe 599 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:59,679 easy, but yeah, at least they have starting point there. Yeah, 600 00:52:59,679 --> 00:53:05,719 I think it's I think one of the cool aspects of that approach is asking, 601 00:53:06,119 --> 00:53:08,840 like creating the framework from a why are you here perspective, like, 602 00:53:09,079 --> 00:53:14,599 Okay, you're interested in DevOps, but why what's the problem you're trying to 603 00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:22,280 solve? Because the answer to that might change the path that they're pursuing and 604 00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:29,199 lead them to results quicker. He just wanted his end to talk about selling 605 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,679 things and education and like where is your customer at right? You know, 606 00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,800 when they end up on a landing page, you know what are they looking 607 00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:37,639 for? Are they looking for? What is? Like I heard some cool 608 00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,760 kids saying the term DevOps and I don't know what that means. I want 609 00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,639 someone to tell me what it is. And the difference of like, wow, 610 00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,039 you know, it's perfectly aligned with what we're currently trying to do. 611 00:53:47,119 --> 00:53:51,079 And we're innovators in the space and we want to know more. We want 612 00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:53,079 to know toolfless and other things that we can be doing. And this is 613 00:53:53,119 --> 00:53:57,920 a huge, a massive spectrum from one side to the other, and I 614 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,119 think capturing that is quite a challenge, right, Like even individual products go 615 00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:07,119 and have a very narrow mindset of what their audience actually looks. Like Mary 616 00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:13,079 said that, you know more of the expert practitioners who probably are looking for 617 00:54:13,199 --> 00:54:19,360 ways to convince their organization to implement develops more effectively, rather than the I 618 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,639 don't know what develops is, but I'm sure we're doing it because we're a 619 00:54:22,679 --> 00:54:36,440 great company. By you also, I mean a couple of years, Uh, 620 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,719 someone asked me in the interview, actually, what is the the bops? 621 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,440 I explain a little bit blah blah blah. And he asked me, 622 00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:50,280 you are contributed to source? Yeah, I have I contribute, but mostly 623 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,119 let's say some of the bobs people they just give this as some of the 624 00:54:53,199 --> 00:54:58,880 bobs. And he told me why he didn't give this when I ask you 625 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:07,760 what is the wolves? I think and I think it's a good idea. 626 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:12,119 Actually, if you want to see what is that the wolves? Just keep 627 00:55:12,199 --> 00:55:15,480 the link. I don't want to answer, I just give this link. 628 00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:24,199 I feel like this is this challenge the other way around though, because people 629 00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,880 don't like reading things right, so like I feel like you have to make 630 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:31,920 a custom message for each person otherwise like oh you know what, that answer 631 00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:36,239 is one hundred percent defined at this, like just you want to go here, 632 00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:38,840 like trust me, just read this. And they still don't want to 633 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:45,599 do that. Yeah, what's funny? What's funny? Right on? Well, 634 00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:49,840 yeah, I think we've covered it, Like that's this is a super 635 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,199 cool resource. Like I keep scrolling. I've been scrolling through it and looking 636 00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:58,800 at it as we've been doing this entire episode, and it's very very thorough 637 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,199 it's easy to navigate. It's really really well done. So congratulations on that 638 00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:06,480 because you've been doing this. I was looking at the getubstat you've been doing 639 00:56:06,519 --> 00:56:09,280 this for like five years now. Yeah, it's a long time. Actually, 640 00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:14,480 yeah, that's commitment right there. That's impressive. And I think one 641 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:20,800 of the cool things about that is that's five years of history and changing tools, 642 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,280 adding new tools, removing older tools, with consistent updates. So I 643 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:30,559 think that alone just gives us a lot of value as far as being a 644 00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:36,039 relevant resource. And not only this, but it's help you. Actually, 645 00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,719 it's helped you so to see if that tool is still available in the market. 646 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:45,880 You know, I saw some of the links. Oh the tool does 647 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:51,400 not exist anymore, or it's in the high mode or something like that. 648 00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:54,840 So it's it's it's nice. It's nice to help. Also this updated, 649 00:56:54,960 --> 00:57:02,400 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome. Well should we do some picks 650 00:57:04,199 --> 00:57:07,079 for sure? Right on, Warren, what'd you bring for us this week? 651 00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:13,639 Yeah? So I was reminded recently how the DEVOVS movement may have been 652 00:57:13,679 --> 00:57:17,519 started in the agile mindset, and actually before that was lean, which comes 653 00:57:17,559 --> 00:57:22,960 from manufacturing. So many people don't know about this Lean is all about eliminating 654 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:29,880 waste in organizations, most specifically manufacturing. And there's a book that really categorizes 655 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:34,000 this, primarily called the Toyota Way, and it contains a bunch of principles 656 00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:38,199 they say management principles, but realistically they're how to achieve more effective flow in 657 00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:43,360 your development team. You can have lean software engineering. And I learned about 658 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,039 this before agile realistically, and it's really affected my mindset and put me in 659 00:57:47,079 --> 00:57:52,480 a direction of it's not just about doing things quickly, but really understanding the 660 00:57:52,559 --> 00:57:57,719 overhead in any number of aspects. The one that I find most interesting is 661 00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,880 a product that's been delivered has a negative impact on your organization because until you 662 00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:07,039 start getting money in or delivering that delivers value to your customers, it's sitting 663 00:58:07,119 --> 00:58:12,679 on the shelf and it requires maintenance and upkeep in order to make sure that 664 00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:15,880 it's still effective. And so if a product isn't actually returning enough value, 665 00:58:16,119 --> 00:58:20,280 the best thing you can do for your organization is delete it. And I 666 00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:22,440 feel like that's a mindset that is lost on a lot of people, and 667 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:28,320 being in the devov space, it's super critical for us to help remind others 668 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,119 that there is it's not just free, Like you don't just write something once 669 00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:35,840 and throw it out there and then you don't have to do anything after that. 670 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:42,159 Yeah, that's a very very valid point. Working a lot with early 671 00:58:42,239 --> 00:58:45,239 stage startups that, like I do, I advocate a lot like you have 672 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:51,559 to define the success criteria, like this product, when we launch it within 673 00:58:51,719 --> 00:58:57,199 six months has to be meeting these objectives otherwise we're deleting it for that very 674 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:04,760 reason. That's that takes some real discipline to actually achieve the like congrats, 675 00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:08,280 Like that's not easily done. Yeah, it's it's not easy by any means, 676 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:14,119 because when you even if when you define those criteria, like when you 677 00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,840 get to the measurement day, like you're emotionally attached to this thing, and 678 00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,159 so then you try to like massage the criteria and say like, wow, 679 00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:24,840 we didn't really hit that, but we do have this and and you have 680 00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:31,119 to be It works best when you're just brutally honest with everyone and are in 681 00:59:31,199 --> 00:59:35,559 a group of people where you can call each other out on your bullshit. 682 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,159 I like, you know, I think what helps me here is I use 683 00:59:39,239 --> 00:59:43,719 the mindset. If we didn't have this anymore, you know, we're at 684 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:45,000 the day, Like, let's let's take it. Put everything on the table, 685 00:59:45,079 --> 00:59:47,280 Like, we have no engineers, we have no product, we have 686 00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:52,599 no software done at all. Would we today hire a group of engineers to 687 00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:57,159 go and rebuild this thing by buying it off the shelf and buying them all? 688 00:59:57,199 --> 01:00:00,280 And often you're like, wait, no, actually I don't want to 689 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,800 do that, you know, knowing what we know now and then that's a 690 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:07,119 good indicator for what you should do and how to separate the current state from 691 01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,800 whatever mindset or unfortunate attachment you have to that. Right on, Marius, 692 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:22,639 what'd you bring for a pick? No, fair enough, I'll give you 693 01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:25,639 a minute to think about it. I'll go next. So my pick, 694 01:00:27,599 --> 01:00:30,360 if you have been listening to the show recently, this one's not going to 695 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:37,239 surprise you on once again picking platform con. We've got the list of speakers 696 01:00:37,039 --> 01:00:40,280 are out on the website now, and so at the end of the conference, 697 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:44,679 I'm going to be doing a live Q and a session with some of 698 01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:50,760 those speakers, asking them questions. So I'm treating this as a way to 699 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:57,800 like get to like the humans behind the talks, you know, and learn 700 01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,159 like the people who are doing this and what what they're into and what drives 701 01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:06,239 and motivates them. So if they're specific questions you want me to ask them, 702 01:01:07,199 --> 01:01:14,320 hit me up on XAKA, Twitter or email or whatever place you see 703 01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,920 me hanging out online and let me know what your questions are. And platform 704 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:24,039 Con is coming up in June. It's five days this week and five full 705 01:01:24,159 --> 01:01:30,760 days live streamed, one hundred percent free, tons of great speakers. Check 706 01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:34,199 it out platform con dot com. Yeah, I mean, don't miss your 707 01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:37,639 opportunity to bug Will on this, honestly, because I find a lot of 708 01:01:37,679 --> 01:01:39,760 the value at conferences is sort of the human interaction, the questions that come 709 01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:44,880 up afterwards. You can go lots of places and watch arbitrary content on YouTube 710 01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,039 and whatnot, so you know, don't if you see something there interesting, 711 01:01:47,159 --> 01:01:52,480 definitely forward the question. Yeah, for sure. It's like so many of 712 01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:55,599 the talks. You know, whenever we give talks, we are in a 713 01:01:55,639 --> 01:02:00,199 bubble and we talk about what we think is going to be interesting, and 714 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:05,000 there's there's all kinds of questions, and sometimes there's just like questions like you 715 01:02:05,119 --> 01:02:07,960 see someone giving a talk and you're like, Wow, that person is doing 716 01:02:07,039 --> 01:02:13,000 something really cool. What could I learn from them? And this is your 717 01:02:13,079 --> 01:02:16,199 chance to ask those questions? All right, back to you, Marius, 718 01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:22,280 Which guy can be anything? Can be anything? Yeah, content, you 719 01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,840 know, something great personal life or something technical if you prefer that, Yeah, 720 01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:36,079 I think going to some technical Actually, uh, I didn't experiment anything 721 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,880 except the technical part because yeah, it's there is no type or other things. 722 01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:51,480 But yeah, but if you let's say you want to learn something, 723 01:02:52,440 --> 01:03:00,480 uh, you need to experiment. And by experiment you can none. You 724 01:03:00,599 --> 01:03:07,840 can let's say you can grab that, let's say piece very quickly. You 725 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:14,760 can even speak about that. You can let's say you can build. Actually, 726 01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:21,360 so I think it's not you don't need let's say, well, it's 727 01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:25,679 not enough to read. It's it's better to experiment. Actually, and I 728 01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:30,960 think for all the people who are listening, if you want to, for 729 01:03:30,159 --> 01:03:38,960 the new people who actually want to, let's jump in specific area, it's 730 01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:46,639 not enough to read just experimentals. Yeah, one hundred percent agree, absolutely 731 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:52,079 truth. All right, excellent, Well Marius, thank you for joining us. 732 01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:57,960 For everyone listening. Check out Awesome Develops, Awesome, dash Develops, 733 01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:01,960 dot x y z. Are you active on any social platforms? Hang out 734 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:12,360 online anywhere? Marius GitHub blinked in but GitHub mostly Yeah right, awesome. 735 01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,760 So if you want to reach out to Marius, if you can find him 736 01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:20,880 on GitHub and my website mons not x Y you see. Oh right, 737 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:29,039 huh, there you go. I like it. The simple domain names, 738 01:04:29,079 --> 01:04:34,039 they're getting hard to come by. Yeah, it's easy to remember. Yeah, 739 01:04:35,599 --> 01:04:39,119 but you know, one day, especially for you, Will, you 740 01:04:39,199 --> 01:04:45,840 may find your last name as t l D. But you know what's going 741 01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:51,199 to happen. Somebody's going to like jump on Will first, and then I'll 742 01:04:51,280 --> 01:04:58,760 miss out again. Yeah, you have a you have a previous traumatic experience. 743 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:00,559 Yeah, dude, it's me forever to get Will button dot com. 744 01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:06,840 I can imagine. Yeah, yeah it did, but that's story for another 745 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:13,159 time. Marius, thank you for coming on the show. I really enjoyed 746 01:05:13,159 --> 01:05:16,199 the conversation. Lauren, thanks for joining me again. Appreciate having you here 747 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:21,239 and for everyone listening. Thanks for listening, and we will see you all next week