1 00:00:12,279 --> 00:00:26,839 This is Jonathan Peshel. Welcome to the Symbolic World. So hello everyone, 2 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,800 it is my pleasure to be here with James Pulos. Some of you probably 3 00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:35,439 know his work. He is the editor at the American Mind and at the 4 00:00:35,439 --> 00:00:38,880 Claremont Institute. He's also works for the Blaze. Editor there. You've seen 5 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:45,560 him on all kinds of podcast TV shows. He's written for several publications, 6 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,799 and he's also written several books, and so he I'm very happy that he's 7 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,159 willing to talk to us about technology, it's place in the world today. 8 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:57,799 It's weird connection to spirituality and a vision for the future. So James, 9 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:00,880 thanks for talking to me. Hey, good to be with you. Yeah, 10 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:03,880 that's great. And so I mean I want to start in some ways 11 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,799 in a weird way, because there's this recent article that came out, I 12 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:12,359 think it was on Future about what's going on at Open Eye and how there's 13 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:19,959 this there's these rumors of people doing strange rituals and strange invocations about and making 14 00:01:19,079 --> 00:01:23,599 kind of you know, you know, figures of the AI and you know, 15 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:29,599 invoking certain things kind of using we could call some kind of magical thinking 16 00:01:29,719 --> 00:01:34,280 or or at least thinking that their intentions are related to the way in which 17 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,519 AI will develop, at least if we try to make it the least weird 18 00:01:38,599 --> 00:01:42,280 possible. But it also points to some strange things. And so tell me 19 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,519 a little bit, I mean, we can start there. What is your 20 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,480 perception about that in terms of what the hell is going on in the world 21 00:01:47,519 --> 00:01:52,359 technology? Sure, well, I think it's clear. And I laid some 22 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,879 of this out two years ago in my book Human Forever, and you know, 23 00:01:55,439 --> 00:02:00,799 regrettably, it's becoming more accurate with every past year. So digital technology 24 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:08,360 has has advanced and been developed in a certain direction where it raises these ultimate 25 00:02:08,439 --> 00:02:13,840 questions about who we are and why. These are the kind of questions that 26 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:19,240 historically admit of theological answers. And I think what we've seen over the past 27 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,080 five hundred years or so is that, despite the best efforts of many different 28 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:29,599 sort of ideologues and rationalists and materialists, these ultimate questions about who and why 29 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,319 we are are still only really answerable in theological terms. And so what we're 30 00:02:34,319 --> 00:02:38,599 seeing around the world is if you're a civilization state, a big major power 31 00:02:38,039 --> 00:02:44,639 with a with a very old civilization contained within your borders, and you're also 32 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,919 a first rank digital power. You know, we're talking about China, United 33 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,039 States, Russia, Israel, India, maybe, you know, Europe is 34 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,039 kind of in this in the in the maybe column on the bubble. If 35 00:02:58,039 --> 00:03:02,159 you're one of those powers, the challenge that you face as a result of 36 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:07,800 digital technology just sort of integrating and eating everything is a specific kind of challenge 37 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:14,680 of state craft. And that challenge is by what authority can you claim convincingly, 38 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:21,080 legitimately in the eyes of your people to extend or even re establish your 39 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:28,520 sovereignty over the technology within your orders. What I've seen unfold, and I 40 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:34,039 think will continue to see it unfold, is that statesmen in those countries are 41 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:40,840 resorting to the original or foundational religion of their people, of their civilization. 42 00:03:43,039 --> 00:03:47,759 In Russia, obviously we're seeing then they announced this openly in twenty twenty, 43 00:03:47,879 --> 00:03:51,400 built a big new cathedral in Moscow, said this. You know, this 44 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:55,159 isn't just a new building, this inaugurate it's a fundamentally closer relationship between the 45 00:03:55,159 --> 00:04:00,400 military and the church. You see this, yes, in Europe, where 46 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,080 the Vatican wants to be right at the forefront of these discussions about like well, 47 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:06,479 you know, maybe Europe's not the best innovators, but gosh darn itt, 48 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:09,639 we're the best regulators. So we're going to you know, we're going 49 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:13,639 to apply the laws in the way that has kind of the most rectitude so 50 00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:16,680 that we can get our arms around this technology. In China, I think 51 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,040 there's a debate going on right now between you know, really sort of Marxist 52 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:26,480 or post Marxist materialists who think like quantity is a quality all its own, 53 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,879 and Taoists, and you know, they've got Buddhism and Confucianism out there. 54 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:35,079 Some of the best, I think most perceptive Chinese observers on the technological situation 55 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,199 are pretty open about saying, you know, hey, we're going to get 56 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,600 this right in the way the West doesn't, because the West has this kind 57 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,000 of dualism thing going on and we don't. We have this harmonious concept of 58 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,079 cosmos, and that's going to help us with regard to digital technology. India, 59 00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:55,279 you know, the Hindu nationalists are definitely making decisions about how to chart 60 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:00,720 a technological course based on that kind of religious fundament. And in the US 61 00:05:00,759 --> 00:05:03,959 and in the anglosphere, you know, there is a on a good day, 62 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,199 a very lively and robust debate and on a bad day, a sort 63 00:05:08,199 --> 00:05:15,519 of nightmarish conflict over exactly what theological presuppositions are going to be justifying the way 64 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:24,839 that technologies is treated and used within our civilization. So I'm laying all this 65 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:30,920 out for for the purpose of saying, there's one other sort of religious framework 66 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,360 that has been thrust to the fore by digital technology. And it's not any 67 00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:41,439 of the pre existing you know, monotheistic or highly polytheistic religions. It is 68 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,519 worship of technology itself and what we are seeing coming out of large chunks of 69 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,720 Silicon Valley, and specifically with regard to to open AI. You know, 70 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,240 we've been seeing this for generations. It's really going to start something to ahead 71 00:05:56,879 --> 00:06:04,319 overt. And however, you know, a cultish very proud and unashamed worship 72 00:06:04,399 --> 00:06:09,800 of technology as such, or worship of you know, what are avatars are 73 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:16,160 of technology are seen as kind of opening the floodgates to fundamentally transforming who we 74 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:23,439 are and why we are and carrying us into a fundamentally new sort of cyborg 75 00:06:23,639 --> 00:06:28,839 mode of post human existence. Sounds like a mouthful, you know, I'm 76 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,319 trying to condense twenty years of activity down into one answer to a question. 77 00:06:33,199 --> 00:06:36,720 I mean, you look at open Ai. You know, what, what 78 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:41,600 what are the religious foundations that work in the in the head or the heart 79 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,079 of a guy like Samultman. You know, interesting question Ilia, the guy 80 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,079 who's sort of worried about Sam, you know, it was involved in some 81 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,600 of the the the practices you describe. You know, the guy's a joint 82 00:06:51,639 --> 00:06:57,720 Canadian an Israeli citizen, doesn't seem to be recognizably operating within a Christian Jewish 83 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:03,279 or even you sort of vaguely Judeo Christian framework. So these things are coming 84 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:08,160 to a head. It's difficult in the West because you know, we created 85 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,000 these technologies, we sort of assumed that they would be our friends, or 86 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:15,519 at least not be, you know, our enemies. And rather than consummating 87 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,399 our form of war, our our form of rule over the world and enlightened 88 00:07:19,439 --> 00:07:24,199 and benevolent as we thought it to be, it really seems to be causing 89 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:30,480 that form of rule to implode with obviously dismaying and confusing consequences. So I 90 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:34,120 see that as kind of like the setting the table to try to understand where 91 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:38,240 we are and what we need to do to kind of figure out a pass 92 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,000 forward. All right, So I have two questions. I'll start with the 93 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,720 first one. It seems to me like that part of what's going on with 94 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:48,759 the question of technology is somehow the playing out of the revolutionary trophe that has 95 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:55,360 set itself up since the Enlightenment, which is that if we understand revolutions as 96 00:07:55,399 --> 00:07:59,240 a possibility for legitimacy. You know, it's like if we think that by 97 00:07:59,319 --> 00:08:01,879 taking power ourselves and you know, having a hierarchy, but then from the 98 00:08:03,199 --> 00:08:05,360 bottom of the hierarchy kind of coming up and taking it. Whether we understand 99 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,920 it in the different ways that it's understood Marxist or not, or just the 100 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:15,240 French Revolution or even the American Revolution. Uh, that what you see in 101 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:20,480 the in the mythology that's related to revolution. If you look at the cosmogony, 102 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:24,639 right, once you create this revolution, you're then you're always in danger 103 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,639 of being revolted against. Right, that's the problem. It's like, you 104 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:31,600 know, the the aristocracies think we'll just kill the king, we'll just get 105 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,799 rid of the king, and then we'll rule. But then you know, 106 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,399 once they've done that, then the business people come for them, and then 107 00:08:35,639 --> 00:08:41,000 there's this kind of evolving of revolutions. Uh. And it seems like one 108 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,600 of the things that we fantasized about in our fiction for one hundred years now 109 00:08:45,919 --> 00:08:48,919 is the idea that the things that we make right, the things that are 110 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,759 below us, the things that serve us, would ultimately come up and take 111 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,879 power from us. And we could understand that with terror, like in the 112 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:01,000 Terminator or the matrix and all of that, but that terror also hides a 113 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:07,320 kind of fantasy of what is possible. And so I wonder if there isn't 114 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:13,279 something of a mode of thinking that we're in that makes not only it possible, 115 00:09:13,279 --> 00:09:16,519 but makes it almost inevitable that we're moving towards a place where we will 116 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:22,879 be we we we almost dream of being taken over by the things that we 117 00:09:22,919 --> 00:09:26,720 create, because we believe that we believe in that pattern of being. You 118 00:09:26,759 --> 00:09:31,200 could say, yes, that is this is this is going to be difficult 119 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:37,080 for us to wrestle with because look for the for the past several cycles of 120 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:45,600 major innovation with regard to communications technologies. I'm talking about the print era of 121 00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:48,279 the electric era, just sort of borrowing from Martian clew and you know, 122 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:54,679 you have these kinds of of of revolutions or what appear to be revolutions where 123 00:09:54,039 --> 00:10:01,080 the fundamental way in which we communicate and in which are are our faculties and 124 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:07,000 our senses are extended. It jumps jumps forward in a certain sense. The 125 00:10:07,519 --> 00:10:16,919 West did pretty well, all things considered, and not specifically the West, 126 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:24,600 but really the anglosphere Europe didn't do so hot when electricity arrived. The United 127 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:28,399 States did very well. It's sort of interesting to ponder, you know why. 128 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,440 In the US it was sort of like productivity and flourishing, and in 129 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:37,240 Europe it was like wave after wave of slaughter. Something to think about. 130 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:43,159 But the Anglo sphere did really well. And I think the way that the 131 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:52,159 legacy of Puritanism in the US and similar trends in the UK and eventually in 132 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:58,600 the Commonwealth really culturally favored a kind of authority of the book, the authority 133 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:05,200 of the scholar, the authority of of of critical reasoning, of of of 134 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:13,519 critical thinking, that whole basket of practices and social institutions that grew up in 135 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,360 the wake of the printing press and radio and television. Uh, yes, 136 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,000 you know there there there were some reasons to be concerned about propaganda and whatnot. 137 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,240 But really in in the anglophone West. Uh, there was a lot 138 00:11:26,279 --> 00:11:31,360 of trust and a lot of legitimacy and a lot of authority coming out of 139 00:11:31,399 --> 00:11:35,639 those kinds of practices. And I think that drew the Protestant English speaking world 140 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,519 and the Jewish world closer together. They shared a lot of that kind of 141 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,799 cultural competency, and you know, and a lot of ambition and productivity flowed 142 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,120 through those channels. And so as I, you know, as I hinted 143 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:56,360 a little bit earlier that civilization created the internet, created the computer, created 144 00:11:56,399 --> 00:12:00,360 digital technology, and really thought that like, well, you know, we're 145 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,399 we're on a pretty good streak here, so surely this is just going to 146 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:11,720 be an incremental, linear, progressive advance toward our goals. And you know, 147 00:12:11,799 --> 00:12:16,559 maybe it took a crazy Catholic Canadian like Marshall mclewan to throw a spanner 148 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,279 in the works. But you know, when he was laying out his theory 149 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,960 of media causes and effects, he said, whoa, you know, it's 150 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,039 not that simple. It's not just like, oh, you know, we 151 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,879 added more technology, so we're going to get closer to the intended outcome. 152 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:33,200 These these media can have profoundly different effects. They're not they don't just have 153 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,039 effects where they enhance what's going on, and they don't just have effects where 154 00:12:37,039 --> 00:12:43,320 they obsoleste certain things in their path. They also have retrieval effects. And 155 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,440 so you know what that means, to make a long story short, is 156 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:52,080 that when you have a sweeping transformation in the the controlling or dominant mode of 157 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:58,039 communications technology, suddenly things that that had been pushed way into the background, 158 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:03,679 considered to be obsolete, might suddenly come roaring back. And what's come back 159 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:09,639 to the fore as a result of digital technology, I think, are these 160 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:20,320 kinds of deep sea of theological questions that suddenly the traditional class of authoritative scholars 161 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,879 and experts and culture makers in the West are struggling to answer. You can 162 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:28,720 get up there and say, well, you know, we're gonna we're gonna 163 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:31,480 use facts and logic, or we're gonna use tradition, or we're going to 164 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,080 stand up for our values, or we're gonna if we get the principles right, 165 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,759 if we get the words right, then we're going to get the governance 166 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:43,960 right. And that whole like that whole movement served us quite well under previous 167 00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:48,799 technological conditions, but now all of a sudden, technology comes along and says, 168 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,240 well, actually, no, nature can't stand up for itself. It 169 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:56,000 can't justify itself in the face of technology. Tradition can't justify itself in the 170 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,679 face of technology. Conservatism can't justify itself in the face of technology. It 171 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,759 needs some kind of support or it needs some other source of authority in order 172 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:09,159 to somehow rise to a more authoritative level, a more spiritual level than than 173 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,679 than digital technology itself, which is being driven at this point in a very 174 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:20,240 forcefully spiritual direction by the people who are who are worshiping techne technique in its 175 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:24,120 own right. So this is a big challenge for for the West, and 176 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,960 it's going to take a little bit of I think humility and a little bit 177 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:33,799 of willingness to step in a in a in an uncomfortable or or or unanticipated 178 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,960 direction, uh, in order for for Westerners and and people in the English 179 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,919 speaking world not to kind of go down with the ship of like the authority 180 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,799 of the the best talkers. I mean, here we are, you know, 181 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:52,279 trying to be like pretty good talkers, talkers worth worth watching. Uh. 182 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,519 And that's important. But you know, I log on every day and 183 00:14:56,559 --> 00:14:58,879 I just watch these guys just like talking until they're blue in the face, 184 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:05,080 trying to mount these sophisticated intellectual arguments as to why there should be some sort 185 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:09,960 of you know, not just surrender everything in life's technology and uh and it's 186 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,600 it's not really working. And so I think, you know, bringing a 187 00:15:13,639 --> 00:15:18,080 focus to that that problems and being willing to kind of change our approach a 188 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:24,320 little bit could bring I think some some large and and really very badly needed 189 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,000 gains. So one intermediary question, but I want to get back to what 190 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,159 you're saying now because I don't want to lose the thread from before too much, 191 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,440 is what do you see the role of some of the global institutions, 192 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,480 because obviously one of the things we're seeing is is you know what Justin Trudeau 193 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,519 is saying, we're a post to national nation and moving towards the UN, 194 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,159 you know, the WF, these these international institutions as a possible solution to 195 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:56,440 the problems that are that are brought about by the internationalism of technology itself. 196 00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:58,279 Right, It's like, we we have this issue where we live in nations, 197 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:02,039 but now we have these achnology that connect us all over the globe. 198 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:04,799 So I don't know how you see the role of these types of institutions in 199 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:10,080 that question. Well, I think it's clear that we're going to need some 200 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:15,360 some new institutional frameworks. I mean, the World Economic Forum. Some people 201 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:18,039 see this as like the this is it, guys, this is the key 202 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,039 to all the malevolence in the world. Would it were so simple, We 203 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:25,519 should expect to see, you know, evil or malevolent people at all levels 204 00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:29,320 of society throughout all time. So it wouldn't be that shocking if there were 205 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,840 some of those guys up in the upper echelons of the World Economic Forum or 206 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,080 or institutions that we don't even know the name of. You know, people 207 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,639 who we don't know, who are not household names, people who are not 208 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,600 you can't put them on a bumper sticker. A Klaus Schwab bad you know, 209 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:45,559 well, he seems to be pretty bad. But there are others and 210 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,799 we don't even know who they are. And it's it's natural, I think, 211 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:53,759 to see people responding to the way that technology is eating the world into 212 00:16:53,799 --> 00:17:02,440 the inability of those kinds of consensus institutions familiar to us over the West's many 213 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:08,359 successful centuries. The inability of those things to to to stop or redirect technology 214 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:12,400 in the face of that kind of trend. Uh. Yeah, if you're 215 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:19,480 if you're just a kind of you know, middle of the pack nation state, 216 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,960 you're gonna people are gonna raise fundamental questions, Well, what is Canada? 217 00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:26,519 Why should there even be a Canada? What does it even mean? 218 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:30,799 At this point? Uh? And a lot of the answers are are boiling 219 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:34,000 down right now to well enough of all that, you know, that's that's 220 00:17:34,079 --> 00:17:41,680 just a past filled with injustice. We need to to purify, rectify law 221 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:48,640 and absorb ourselves into This really is just kind of a board, you know, 222 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:56,640 like a big cyber regime into which everything can fit because it's really kind 223 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,960 of like a virtual world, and it's intended to be infinite in size and 224 00:18:02,039 --> 00:18:06,240 something that you can you can pile everyone and everything into, you know. 225 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:10,839 I'm an Alexis Tokeville guy. I was a toke fulle stellar at George Stown. 226 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,680 I was doing a PhD. Wrote my first book on Tokeville and it's 227 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,359 been it's been interesting to me, to say the least, to see how 228 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:26,200 many French theorists, just over the past twenty five years really seemed to understand 229 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:32,799 what was unfolding with regard to technology in a particularly insightful way. I'm thinking 230 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,319 about, you know, not just ring Gerrard, but Paul Varillio, John 231 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,799 Boudriard, Like it's you know, you can go back there and read them 232 00:18:41,799 --> 00:18:45,920 and sort of like it's a blow your wig back a little bit. Yeah, 233 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,480 No, I totally agree. I was reading really over the nineties and 234 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,440 and he was part of I mean, he was part of my change in 235 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,079 perspective and kind of re understanding Heidegger in terms of what was happening and also 236 00:18:57,759 --> 00:19:04,119 seeing just moving away from this kind of weird rationalistic uh way of thinking, 237 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:10,079 and and seeing that that the way that Heideger presents design and the idea of 238 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,000 care really I mean form my thinking. And this is what really o his 239 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:15,640 work is for those who don't know who really is. His work was on 240 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,680 speed and scale quite a bit, right, the problem that acceleration beyond human 241 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,680 normal human interaction is actually affecting our entire worldview and the idea of these gigantic 242 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,759 skyscraper buildings that you walk through that completely you know, obfuscate the sense of 243 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,559 human scale are part of our images of the type of despair that come about 244 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,319 with with modern technology. And this disconnection that we that we feel. But 245 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,240 so how do you say? I mean, I'm curious to know how you 246 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,079 see this, Like, so you know, one of the one of the 247 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,279 solutions like that some people present is basically like go live in the word like 248 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,599 like break off. You know, you have this with it sant pacios, 249 00:19:56,039 --> 00:19:57,799 you know, he he he said, like don't worry my little children. 250 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:00,319 You know, you just have to go live the woods. Like if things 251 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,839 get too crazy in terms of the kind of techno state, you just have 252 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,279 to break off. And I know some people that have been willing to do 253 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:15,000 that. But there's also a sense in which this this this thing that's getting 254 00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:21,359 set up right, this kind of interconnected technological world is also the battle ground, 255 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,960 you know, for the future. And so I I'm not sure. 256 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,720 I don't know what you think, like in terms of how you see you 257 00:20:27,759 --> 00:20:32,960 know, actual implementing solutions you know, at different levels, like in our 258 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:37,279 lives, in the lives of our communities in order to be able to I 259 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,720 don't know what you think, but like integrate technologies to the right extent or 260 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,559 or you know that's they protect ourselves from the worst aspects of it. Sure, 261 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,839 you know, Farbia for me to say Sant Paisios was wrong. Certainly, 262 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,200 you know, listen, listen to your saints. They are not wrong. 263 00:20:56,079 --> 00:21:00,759 Of course, everyone can't go live in the woods or else, you 264 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:03,400 know, kind of stops functioning as the woods or the desert or what have 265 00:21:03,519 --> 00:21:07,240 you. Come another town, Yeah, yeah, it becomes another town. 266 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:11,640 But it is interesting that, you know, those those desert fathers who did, 267 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,440 who did isolate themselves in the most radical of ways. You know, 268 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:19,680 in spite of that fact, or perhaps because of it, they they nevertheless 269 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,720 attracted followers, and in some cases those those followers led to the creation of 270 00:21:25,759 --> 00:21:30,839 monasteries that are still here. And I think that that kind of mysterious way 271 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:37,079 in which radical self isolation, at least from your your fellow men, can 272 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:47,119 lead to creating these kinds of oases of civilization, of of spiritual energy and 273 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,759 spiritual strength. You know, that is I think going to be a powerful 274 00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:57,759 part of the equation. And I think remembering the way that monasteries preserved wisdom 275 00:21:57,799 --> 00:22:03,839 and faith in the way the collapse of the Western Roman Empire by re ordering 276 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:10,240 the application of the most powerful communications technology script scribal technology. You know, 277 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:15,720 there is a metaphor there or a model for what kind of monastic life can 278 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:21,680 help us understand how to shape and guide technology digital technology. That's something I 279 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,880 think a lot about. But look, I think, you know, I 280 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:33,279 think it is it is important for people to admit that if we all just 281 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,079 try to irish exit from the problems of our civilization, many will die, 282 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:44,240 and many will will descend into abject misery. And that decline, which we're 283 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:49,359 seeing everywhere now is going to fuel the longing and the desire for a purely 284 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:55,440 technological solution for the you know, Chipney, Daddy, take the pain away. 285 00:22:56,319 --> 00:23:00,279 Why should we bother being human at all? It only brings misfortune. 286 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:07,759 Yeah, the priests say that we need spiritual disciplines in order to endure, 287 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:11,119 but that stuff's really hard. I don't think I can do it. I'm 288 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,400 a broken person. I'm lazy, I want shortcuts, I want fun, 289 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,960 you know, all the excuses and all the reasons, and so it will 290 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,400 be worth our while. I think for at least some of us to focus 291 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:33,319 on doing our best to bring to the attention of people spiritual solutions or at 292 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:40,759 least spiritual practices that will be able to stand up in the face of technology 293 00:23:40,759 --> 00:23:42,400 and say no there is a higher authority, and this is how it can 294 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,079 be operationalized in your life. Right now, you know, the Kingdom of 295 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:53,400 Heaven is at hand. You can right now adopt spiritual practices that will allow 296 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:59,119 you to take you know, what will feel like an almost superhuman kind of 297 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,680 control over your passions, your dreams, your senses, your desires, all 298 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:11,079 of these things that make technology seem so tempting and alluring and so so much 299 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:17,400 of an ultimate experience that those kinds of practices. You know, this goes 300 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,799 back to the ancient church, you know, to the Desert Fathers. The 301 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:27,759 Greeks referred to it as kind of spiritual athleticism, spiritual heroism. This is 302 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,039 a more challenging and uncomfortable path, I think for a lot of Westerners than 303 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:37,240 what so many of us have become accustomed to, which is well, you 304 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:38,759 know, just get the principles right, just get the laws right, writes 305 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:41,680 down. People will just kind of do what do what it says. And 306 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,680 because the laws will be rectified or pure, the people will be pure. 307 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,599 You know, if we get the laws right, we'll avoid misfortunes. People 308 00:24:51,599 --> 00:24:53,480 can kind of do what they want and everything will be fine. Well, 309 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:57,839 you know, in some respects that was kind of just the way things shook 310 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:03,839 out before it came along in many instances, But now it's not really that 311 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,519 way. And now you have code, and code presents itself very convincingly as 312 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:14,119 sort of the ultimate form of law, law that is perfect and pure because 313 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,039 it doesn't have the human element in it at all. It's uh, you 314 00:25:17,079 --> 00:25:18,880 know, it's just it's just the math. You know. It's like you 315 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,240 remember the the people who supported Andrew Yang's campaign going around just holding up the 316 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:27,480 science math as if that this is the answer to you guys, always more 317 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:32,200 math, more statistics than we know, we'd solve all the problems, right. 318 00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:34,720 Yeah. So, you know, in the US it's challenging because we 319 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:40,039 do have a constitution it is still at least technically in force, and we're 320 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:45,440 not supposed to we're not supposed to resort to theocracy. Theocracy. There used 321 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,519 to be a lot of a lot of jabber about theocracy during the George deal 322 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,039 Bush administration. All these these Mayberry Machiavelians, they are going to create this 323 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,079 sort of evangelical police state. And you know, of course it didn't really 324 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,880 go down that way for for various reasons. But if you go back to 325 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,880 the Puritans, you know, the Puritans were small, our republicans. They 326 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,240 didn't like monarchy, but they had you know, they did kind of invent 327 00:26:08,319 --> 00:26:15,480 a kind of American theocracy where the institutions of education became the way that this 328 00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:22,920 kind of strict spiritual instruction could be infused into a society that was not monarchical, 329 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,799 that was not aristocratic. And I think that pattern, even though it's 330 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,839 shed a lot of the explicitly Christian content and has really abandoned the church and 331 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,359 the sacraments and the saints and bishops and all the rest over the years, 332 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:41,119 you look at what's going on with wokeness, and it's really the same playbook. 333 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,440 You know it is. Look, we're going to use strict spiritual instruction 334 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:51,799 to make sure that the elite is able to go into the institutions and purify 335 00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:57,759 the law. And that's what we're experiencing right now. So we need to 336 00:26:59,279 --> 00:27:04,319 offer an alternative to that, and an alternative that works for America, works 337 00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:10,759 with the Constitution, and that's going to be a certain amount of permissiveness legally 338 00:27:10,799 --> 00:27:15,640 with regard to the development of technology. This might sound strange coming from someone 339 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,319 like me who's talking about how badly technology is working out right now and how 340 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,640 its trajectory of development is undermining our very humanity and what a disaster that is. 341 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:29,039 And that's true, but I think it only goes to show that if 342 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:33,799 you try to rely on the law, technology will roll you every time. 343 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,799 And so you got to be a little bit more permissive, especially in the 344 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,039 US when it comes to the legal framework. You got to make sure that 345 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,720 ordinary Americans can use and access these fundamental technologies in the same way that they 346 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,279 have constitutionally protected right to bear arms and a right to free association. They 347 00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:56,400 need to be able to use these powerful technologies in order to strengthen our form 348 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,359 of government, strengthen our way of life, strengthen our humanity. And so 349 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,640 it becomes all the more important that the backstop or the controlling mechanism that does 350 00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:14,000 shape and guide technological development in a in a more restraining way, is not 351 00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:17,400 going to come from the law and not going to come from the government. 352 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,240 It's going to come from spiritual bodies. And when you look at the size 353 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,640 and the scope, the speed, and the scale of this digital swarm, 354 00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:34,079 you know we've got basically innumerable invisible instantaneously, uh, intercommunicative entities. Here. 355 00:28:36,279 --> 00:28:41,079 The only I think, the only body that is capable of of establishing 356 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:47,720 a spiritual authority over that that global swarm is the Body of Christ, is 357 00:28:47,759 --> 00:28:52,279 the Church and uh, and that's you know, that's going to be something 358 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:56,119 that I think Americans are are going to have to kind of learn to to 359 00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:00,279 to look at the situation a little bit differently in order for that torually sink 360 00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:06,000 in. But that seems to me to be to be not just the best 361 00:29:06,079 --> 00:29:07,480 path, but really, you know, for us, the only guy. 362 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:12,160 Yeah, And I think that, you know, it's important for people to 363 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:17,680 understand what you're saying, especially because it might at the outset for some seem 364 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:18,799 like a contradiction because you're saying, on the one hand, we have to 365 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,680 be permissive, but we need the Body of Christ to rule. And I 366 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:30,240 think what's important to understand is that true authority does not manifest itself through just 367 00:29:30,359 --> 00:29:36,279 laws. It manifests itself through transformation of you know, worldview, transformation of 368 00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:40,599 will, transformation of perspective. That is true authority. Right. If I 369 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,640 can get my children to understand what we're doing and to love what we're doing 370 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,359 and to feel like they belong in the family, then I don't need a 371 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:53,319 million rules on how to live in their house, Like I don't need to 372 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:56,880 tell them every single little thing they need to do, because it comes from 373 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:02,759 something deeper. And the type of author that the church can can procure is 374 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:07,599 exactly that. It's a type of spiritual discipline that can bring people into right 375 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,599 perspective regarding technology. It's like if if you right now at this, like 376 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:15,799 a good example would be like right now, if you you could try to 377 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,519 pass rules to control pornography. But like, good luck, my friend, 378 00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:22,759 Like it just seems like that's an impossible thing for it to happen. But 379 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:29,000 what is possible is for young men to go to confession and to you know, 380 00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:33,119 to enter into a spiritual practice that will help them focus their intention on 381 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,200 what's important. And in the end that the people that do that, they 382 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,400 will come out winners. In the end that is that they will take civilization 383 00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:47,799 with them, because the rest will. You can't, you cannot, you 384 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:52,400 can't. You cannot have indefinite porn addicted civilization. Like that that means how 385 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,240 can I say this? It literally means no children, Like at some point 386 00:30:56,279 --> 00:31:00,519 it literally means lack of lack of reproduction and so and so I think I 387 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:06,440 think your your vision is the right one. It's a difficult one because it's 388 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,799 not a quick solution. It's not an easy solution. It's actually the hardest 389 00:31:08,839 --> 00:31:15,559 solution to propose. And it's one also that cannot be It's kind of like 390 00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:17,920 saying, you know, you know, what do what do you need to 391 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,039 do? Become a saint? Like that's what what what do I have to 392 00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:21,880 do? And it's like what should I do with it? Like, well, 393 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,440 just become a saint, you know. And if you do that, 394 00:31:23,519 --> 00:31:26,039 then you'll have you know, as Christ says, you'll have birds landing in 395 00:31:26,079 --> 00:31:33,240 your branches, like the world will lay itself out properly around people that that 396 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:38,359 that are that are aligned properly. But it's a big challenge to to to 397 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,839 propose people. Yeah, well it is a big challenge. But we also 398 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:48,319 have to remember, you know, God can move immediately, and you know, 399 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:56,680 and Christ himself did not shy away from from underscoring that if you you 400 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,920 know, if if you open the door, he'll come in. If you 401 00:32:00,039 --> 00:32:05,559 ask, it shall be given to you. And so on the one hand, 402 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:12,960 yes, patience is a divine virtue, and humility is a divine virtue. 403 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,039 And these things tend to slow us down and tend to take away from 404 00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:22,960 us the shortcuts and the substitutes that we are always so inclined to chase after 405 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:29,599 being the mortal and impatient creatures that in this fallen world we are. But 406 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,799 that does not mean that we have to kind of give up on the idea 407 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:39,000 that nothing can move faster than our own invisible robots. That's just not the 408 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:45,640 case. And so you know, theologically, it is going to require a 409 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,519 little bit more of sort of stretching old muscles than I think a lot of 410 00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:55,319 Americans are accustomed to. But it's easy to beat up on the wokies. 411 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,000 But if you look at what the Wolkes are trying to do, and you 412 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,759 try to take seriously or generously what it is that they're trying to do, 413 00:33:02,799 --> 00:33:07,480 they look at worship of technology and they say, well, that's not right. 414 00:33:07,759 --> 00:33:10,880 We should really just be worshiping justice. You know, peeling off on 415 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:16,039 one part of God's attributes and turning that into a god not a good idea. 416 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,079 But justice is good, right. We like justice. We should have 417 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,799 justice. We don't want injustice and what we see, you know, we 418 00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:30,240 can see in the paradox that they're wrestling with, which is okay. Well, 419 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:37,799 if technology is going to eat everything unless we put the right justice worshipers 420 00:33:37,799 --> 00:33:42,839 in charge, okay, So then we have this layer of woke virtue on 421 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,039 top of technology, and that'll be the thing that controls it, and that'll 422 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:47,880 be the thing to make sure that technology doesn't you know, kill us all 423 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,039 or just perpetuating justice forever. Okay, great, So well then how do 424 00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,400 you do that? What is the new governance? What is the woke governance 425 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,480 mechanism that is going to save us from the very worst of technology. Well, 426 00:34:00,519 --> 00:34:02,799 the answer turns out to be, and we just see this every day, 427 00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:07,079 and what the Biden administration is rolling out as far as tech regulations goes 428 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,960 a woke supercomputer, you know. Okay, Well, we need this kind 429 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:16,639 of this supercomputer that can understand better than any human being every time there's some 430 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:22,679 kind of active injustice, any micro aggression, any micro injustice. We need. 431 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,159 You know, it's impossible for human beings to really properly understand in a 432 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:32,159 divine way, who deserves what at every given time and what ought to be 433 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:36,639 taken from whom and given to someone else. You know, this is clearly 434 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,480 a math problem that only a supercomputer can solve, and so the solution is 435 00:34:40,519 --> 00:34:46,840 for us to catechize that supercomputer into wokeness so that it eternalizes the woke religion 436 00:34:47,519 --> 00:34:52,679 and pursues perfect justice, you know, writing the law into everyone's heart. 437 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,960 Really, you can see how this can be just sort of lifted out of 438 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,039 Christian patterns and categories of thought turned into something else. And sure enough, 439 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:06,039 that's what they're offering, you know, social justice, social credit system, 440 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,119 where the Feds know every time a dollar leaves your pocket and goes somewhere else 441 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:15,039 knows you know, what memes you've posted today, how much hate is in 442 00:35:15,079 --> 00:35:17,480 your memes, you might go to jail, you know, really just penetrating 443 00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:24,599 down into the most intimate level of human interaction and human conscience possible. And 444 00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:30,320 so what we see is that worship of justice ends up just getting folded back 445 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,639 into the worship of technology. Well, where we can't have perfect justice unless 446 00:35:34,639 --> 00:35:37,159 we perfect the technology, and they get kind of stuck in this vapor locker, 447 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,000 this loop, you know, where they're really just chasing their tail. 448 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:46,840 And so worship of justice isn't going to work as an antidote or a restrainer. 449 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,960 When it comes to technology and the worship of technology, we got to 450 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,559 go. We got to go all the way up. We got to go 451 00:35:54,039 --> 00:35:59,599 to the worship of God, and not just the worship of God as a 452 00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:02,280 distance Lord who. You know, maybe some miracles happened a long time ago, 453 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,480 but that era is over. Basically, all we can do now is 454 00:36:06,559 --> 00:36:09,719 understand God's laws. I mean, that's that's some people's answer. And again 455 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:15,760 that worked okay until basically the smartphone became a commodity. Now it doesn't work 456 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,559 like it used to. We have to worship God, the Father who loves 457 00:36:20,639 --> 00:36:22,679 us and created us out of love. You know, these things become essential 458 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:29,000 when technology is eating everything else up. Because our creation by a God who 459 00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:34,159 loves us gives us a degree and a type of spiritual authority that there is 460 00:36:34,199 --> 00:36:37,840 no technological substitute for. There can't be a technological substitute for. People can 461 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,199 pretend people can act that way, but you look at what it actually happens 462 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,559 to them in their lives, and it's it's it's a tragedy. Jane. 463 00:36:45,599 --> 00:36:47,880 The I can love you, you don't You're just you got it all wrong. 464 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,400 The I loves you, yeah, can you can simulate love? And 465 00:36:52,599 --> 00:36:55,199 this is why they're so dangerous and powerful is because you know, yeah, 466 00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,280 they can take jobs or whatever, but really, you know, they're automated 467 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,559 similars, simulators. They're not really artificial intelligence. They're they're automated simulators. 468 00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:06,920 They can simulate love, they can simulate a boyfriend or girlfriend, they can 469 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,639 simulate you know, they can almost simulate a human soul. It's very powerful 470 00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:14,559 stuff, and that illusion is so strong that people begin to think that like, 471 00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:17,199 well, you know, if the simulation is guaranteed, but the reality 472 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,199 is you going to take some work and you know, no promises, you 473 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,360 might end up still being sad. A lot of them are in a sufficiently 474 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,480 weak in spiritual condition where they're going to offer for the simulation, and uh 475 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:34,360 and if we're gonna if we're gonna offer them something that is not just better 476 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,039 because it's a it's a traditional practice, not just better because uh, well 477 00:37:38,039 --> 00:37:42,719 it makes you feel better. It's not just better because you know it's uh 478 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,039 your elders told you that it was better, But it's better because you can 479 00:37:46,079 --> 00:37:52,079 actually experience it directly, even just starting out with a very little bit, 480 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:57,400 you know, and and growing your spiritual strength and your your your spiritual athleticism 481 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,079 through those kinds of ascetic practices, you really can start feeling it almost right 482 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:06,400 away. And that's not to say that you should be going after an ecstatic 483 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,920 experience, but I mean, look, it's you know, even just triumphing 484 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,280 over something that you know is like a persistent sin in your life, even 485 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,119 triumphing over it for one day or even on one occasion, you know, 486 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,199 not going to that website that you know isn't good for you, you know, 487 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,719 like not spending three hours sort of scrolling social media over and over again, 488 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:28,239 cycling through the same four apps. The feeling of spiritual strength that you 489 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,320 get from just like triumphing over that sin with God's help, through God's power 490 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,760 and love, is a real experience. It can be an immediate experience, 491 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:45,400 and it can it can show you that what seems like an insturmountable task you 492 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:50,800 can really approach it one little step at a time and actually get real results 493 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,440 in your life that start radiating through the rest of your life. That stuff 494 00:38:53,519 --> 00:38:59,000 is powerful, and it is pretty basic, but it feels out of reach 495 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,400 for many people and the ownly way that they can that they can really believe 496 00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:07,119 and experience. Otherwise I think is through example. It's you can talk about 497 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:08,719 it a lot, and that's fine, but if they don't see their fellow 498 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:14,559 human beings actually doing this stuff in their real life, it's all going to 499 00:39:14,599 --> 00:39:16,119 feel very abstract. So you know, yeah, I go into the woods, 500 00:39:16,119 --> 00:39:19,840 going to the desert, but we also got to go into the marketplace, 501 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,679 got to go into society. We got to mix it up with our 502 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,679 fellow human beings and show them and participate. That's how the Holy Spirit moves 503 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,639 through us. And and if we choke that off, we're gonna you know, 504 00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:35,280 it's not going to be a surprise what happens. Yeah, so you're 505 00:39:35,519 --> 00:39:38,679 so you're American, and we talked about, you know, the day, 506 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:43,960 the tradition of America, and you mentioned how you can see how different nations, 507 00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:47,400 different groups are going back to their you know, their original revelation or 508 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,039 they're going back to to the religion of their people in order to build up 509 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:58,599 have some kind of bullwork against the oncoming AI whatever is going to happen. 510 00:39:59,639 --> 00:40:04,159 And but but mind is saying that now you're an Orthodox catechyan and so I'm 511 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,440 curious to know in America that's not the most obvious path. And I mean, 512 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,880 obviously I'm Orthodox, so I have my own reason why I took that 513 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,840 direction. So maybe you can formulate a little bit why you're going in that 514 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,480 direction, considering you also it's important for you to be an American at the 515 00:40:20,519 --> 00:40:23,440 same time. Yeah, well, you know, I'm half grief on my 516 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:28,880 father's side, So there's a little context there. And ultimately, you know, 517 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,360 this, this kind of of move is one that takes place in each 518 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,000 person's heart for reasons that can never really be captured, I you know, 519 00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:44,519 not in a book or in a blog post or or on a podcast. 520 00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:46,679 And so you know what I'm about to say, I think, you know, 521 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:52,920 we'll hopefully be understood in that context. I think what we've seen in 522 00:40:53,760 --> 00:41:00,800 the US since the triumph of digital technology and the creation of this kind of 523 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:07,079 machine hegemony that is fundamentally different from you know, well it's one group of 524 00:41:07,079 --> 00:41:10,239 people dominating another. No, this is this is this is a new form 525 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:16,480 of rule. It is something that Americans and America thought, you know, 526 00:41:16,599 --> 00:41:21,920 we controlled this, we created it, or in charge. Well it just 527 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,320 looks to not be the case. Anymore. And I think that's very difficult 528 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:30,559 for Americans to wrestle with in terms of their identity, in terms of their 529 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:38,840 spirituality coming out of you know, centuries of Judea Christian civilization really just proving 530 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:47,840 itself to be superior to you know, Marxism or whatever kind of other major 531 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:57,159 attempt ideologically to to chart the way forward for human being. And now you 532 00:41:57,199 --> 00:41:59,719 know, gosh, you know, you look at Israel and I've talked two 533 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,840 guys on the ground there, and you've got different strange of Judaism, but 534 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:10,719 really no coherent or unified theological answer to what's going on with technology. You 535 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:15,159 look at at Christianity in the US, you know, once again, no 536 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:22,400 coherent, unified answer to what's going on technologically. I think that's that's astonishing, 537 00:42:22,519 --> 00:42:29,880 really, and I think that, uh, it's it's indicative of of 538 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:37,559 the way in which digital technology has really taken the power and the efficacy out 539 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:45,119 of these cultural and social institutions. In the kind of Judeo Christian tradition that 540 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:51,960 used to serve us so well, Conservatism, traditionalism, a certain kind of 541 00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:55,199 you know, almost almost worship of the book. You know, if we 542 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,480 just read the right books, then then we'll understand how to order society properly. 543 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:05,639 That that that had a really great run. And there's no question that, 544 00:43:05,679 --> 00:43:08,800 you know, when when that civilization went up against international communism, went 545 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:15,280 up against you know, the Nazi occultism, uh, it was victorious. 546 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:21,960 And it was victorious in large measure because it had a kind of spiritual authority 547 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:30,760 that seemed sufficient to contain and to rightly wield the most powerful technological weapons. 548 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,039 You know, you got a bunch of us and Gentiles together for the Manhattan 549 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:37,760 Project. You created something that can destroy all human life. And because we 550 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,679 had a certain kind of spiritual authority that was operative and effective, we didn't 551 00:43:42,679 --> 00:43:45,559 destroy all human life. You know, we set a couple of these things, 552 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,760 these things off. It's obviously very nightmarish, but sure enough, the 553 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:59,719 war did end and and there was a hugely productive period of you know, 554 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:06,360 tenuous but real peace and flourishing for the peoples of the West. Do we 555 00:44:06,519 --> 00:44:13,519 have a spiritual authority in place today sufficient to assure us that we can use 556 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,840 our most powerful technologies responsibly and for the benefit of our former government, our 557 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,840 way of life, and our humanity. I think right now the answer is 558 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,440 we don't really see it right now. We see guys like you know, 559 00:44:25,559 --> 00:44:30,679 Sam Altman and Ilia and the rest of these open eye guys running around. 560 00:44:30,679 --> 00:44:35,840 We see a lot of Jews and Gentiles sort of abandoning their you know, 561 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,639 the religion of their forefathers in favor of the tech religion or the work religion, 562 00:44:39,679 --> 00:44:45,400 worshiping tech, worshiping justice, maybe trying to worship both. This is 563 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:51,239 a huge problem, and you look for kind of theological answers, and it's 564 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:52,679 like, well, gosh, you know, if we go back to the 565 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,679 Puritans in a sense, if this is what brought us here, you know, 566 00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,639 it doesn't really doesn't really seem plausible that going back there is gonna unearth 567 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:06,079 something that we hadn't found before that's going to provide us the key to re 568 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,800 establishing a kind of spiritual authority over technology. You know, the Puritanism couldn't 569 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,559 even keep itself going for more than a couple generations. And why is that? 570 00:45:14,599 --> 00:45:16,079 And well, you know, it took out a lot of supports from 571 00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:21,920 the ancient church. Your town hall was your church, you know, no 572 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,599 no icons, no statues, no incense. The sacraments got filed down to 573 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,679 just one or two and within a couple generations you went from Jonathan Edwards to 574 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,760 Ralph Waldo Emerson. You know, you you got to Whitman and Transcendentalism, 575 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,639 Anita, Unitarian universalism. The the bottom dropped out. And I think that's 576 00:45:40,679 --> 00:45:45,440 because, you know, at its route, Puritanism was a kind of spiritually 577 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:52,920 progressive creed, and it was in a sense concerned to transcend itself in the 578 00:45:52,039 --> 00:45:58,119 quest for this kind of of of purity, a purity of rules, a 579 00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:02,000 purity of law, a purity of instructs. I think that is in large 580 00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:06,400 measure what brought us to this kind of reckoning or this crossroads that we're at, 581 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,400 to this question mark about what's going to provide spiritual authority sufficient to contain 582 00:46:10,559 --> 00:46:15,880 and control technology so that we can wield these weapons well for our for our 583 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,280 defense, not for the sake of destroying ourselves. And so if the solution 584 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,599 isn't really going to be especially in the US, isn't going to be a 585 00:46:22,639 --> 00:46:27,000 juridical one, it's not going to be about about encoding. Uh, you 586 00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:30,360 know, the pentitoke into the criminal code like the Puritans did or whatever or 587 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,960 whatever woke you know, cognitive that might be I think it's really going to 588 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,800 be something that takes place in the heart, And is it really going to 589 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:49,079 be something that does involve rediscovering and reclaiming the the spiritual life of ascetic discipline 590 00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:53,760 that was so core to the ancient church. And you know, no, 591 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:59,440 no church is of course perfect in all of its doings. But I think 592 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,880 a lot of what we need most now in order to re establish spiritual authority 593 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:09,840 over technology has been preserved in important ways by the Orthodox Church as a whole. 594 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,719 Uh. And I think there's just a spiritual their spiritual hunger for for 595 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,920 those kinds of resources right now. Uh. And that tradition has I think, 596 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,800 you know, has been neglected to too much in the US, too 597 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:28,840 much in the West, and neglected for for reasons that you know might have 598 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:35,079 seen seemed pretty compelling in centuries past. But right now we need that and 599 00:47:35,079 --> 00:47:37,920 and to uh and to turn up our nose at it or to say, 600 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,480 well, that's you know, it's not really my tradition, and that seems 601 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,599 a little weird or you know, isn't flattering putting a bad guy, or 602 00:47:43,679 --> 00:47:46,320 you know, aren't the Greeks weird? Like well, yes, you know, 603 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,440 so the Greeks are sort of weird, but that's that's not a good 604 00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:52,559 enough reason, you know. So I think these resources are really important right 605 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:58,400 now. And I think that uh, that those who who take a taste, 606 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,719 who come and see uh, are are moved and are are touched by 607 00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:06,840 discovering that they can access those resources. And yeah, it's going to be 608 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,239 uncomfortable, and yeah, it's going to take time, but you know, 609 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,360 lots of people are going to the gym now and they're experiencing these sorts of 610 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,480 things physically where it's like, oh, yeah, I realized that if I 611 00:48:15,559 --> 00:48:17,440 just kind of put the work in every day and willing to sort of suffer 612 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,480 in order to like, you know, have a have a change my life, 613 00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:23,880 you know in a way that's going to be more healthy and it's going 614 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,840 to free me from my dependency on the virtual world. Well yes, you 615 00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,519 know what if I told you you can do that spiritually as well as as 616 00:48:31,519 --> 00:48:35,639 well as physically, I think a lot of people are hungry for that. 617 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,360 And I think I think, you know, as as Christ says, he's 618 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,440 standing at the door knocking and h you know, got a line them in. 619 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,320 Yeah, all right, So I'm going to ask you the last question 620 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,559 what would that look like like? What? I know, it's hard to 621 00:48:50,639 --> 00:48:54,039 predict the future, but you know what, how do you see what would 622 00:48:54,079 --> 00:49:01,400 a world in which there is a spiritual authority which is helping us integrate technology 623 00:49:01,679 --> 00:49:06,920 appropriately? What do you see that looking like? Or do you have a 624 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,320 vision of that at all? Sure? You know, sometimes I will I 625 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:16,679 will speak of the Bitcoin monasteries, which is a little little catchphrase in in 626 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,599 some of my circles. You know, when I when I first started talking 627 00:49:22,639 --> 00:49:25,880 about this stuff a couple of years ago, when it became clear to me 628 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,559 that, you know, political theory would probably deserve to die along with the 629 00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:31,719 rest of the academic disciplines if it couldn't really talk about what's going on with 630 00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,239 technology. You know, a lot of people were like, I had, 631 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,840 James, you know, I don't really understand what you're saying. And now 632 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,320 a couple of years later, mostly what I get is, James, I 633 00:49:42,559 --> 00:49:46,079 don't really understand bitcoin. So in this progress, that's that's good. Bitcoin. 634 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:52,199 You know, it's a world computer. I mean Vitilic the theorem inventor 635 00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:57,920 and describes theoreum as as a world computer. What's Elon Musk doing with Twitter? 636 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,760 Turnin X you know, the app for everything. He's trying to build 637 00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,199 a world computer. This is the game. This is the biggest game in 638 00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:07,559 town right now. And it's not surprising that it is. And uh And 639 00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:10,440 the question is, well, you know, if if there's going to be 640 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,639 a world computer. Uh And and I don't think, you know, I 641 00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:16,719 don't think the AI safetyists have it right either, where it's like, oh, 642 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:20,480 well, just calling the air strikes, blow up the servers. You 643 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,519 know, we got to bomb ourselves back to safety. I don't think we 644 00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:28,719 can we can bomb for safety like that. And I think that that's just 645 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:31,000 a huge, you know, a huge sort of shortcut, a huge act 646 00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:36,519 of what the Hippies called spiritual bypassing. You know, you don't you don't 647 00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,320 need to do that, and you don't want to do that. What you 648 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:45,480 can do, though, is you can gather together people with great spiritual discipline, 649 00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,280 create spiritual authority, people who have who have proven through their work that 650 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:55,880 they can be trusted uh, spiritual guides, spiritual advisors, people who are 651 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:02,800 willing and able to to endure in the labor of praying for the salvation of 652 00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:12,559 the world every day. You know what happens when you provide those people with 653 00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:25,280 the opportunity to demonstrate the fruits of using technology in a in a productively restrained 654 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:30,320 kind of way, channeling the energy of technology in a way that is good 655 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:34,239 for us body, mind and soul. I think that's an interesting question. 656 00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,519 I think it's an important question, and I think it's one that that we 657 00:51:37,599 --> 00:51:43,079 ought to start answering. This is something that has happened throughout history. You 658 00:51:43,119 --> 00:51:45,400 know, whether you think of you know, those those those monks in the 659 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:50,599 Scriptorium in Western Europe, or you think of you know, the Byzantines with 660 00:51:50,679 --> 00:51:54,840 Greek fire or whatever, or you know where you think about peak Judeo Christian 661 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,000 civilization, which was able to build a weapon capable of destroying the world, 662 00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:04,320 and yet didn't just ro the world and use that ultimately in a defensive way 663 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:09,159 and protective way. We can and should do that with fundamental digital technologies and 664 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:13,280 the kind of spiritual authority that is going to enable us to do that. 665 00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,480 Isn't just going to be a copy paste of what came before. It's going 666 00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,960 to be something that I think, you know, Orthodoxy has a great deal 667 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,960 to teach people, and I think, you know it does. Our Orthodoxy 668 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,360 also does have, you know, even though it's right now a very small 669 00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,960 footprint in the US. Sometimes small is good. Sometimes small can be very 670 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,599 effective, sometimes in the same way that sometimes silence is better than just running 671 00:52:34,599 --> 00:52:37,760 your mouth about something and demonstrating, living out, experiencing is more important than 672 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:44,079 explaining. Getting something like bitcoin, which the technology has developed, it's mature 673 00:52:44,199 --> 00:52:46,519 enough ordinary people can use it. Might be a little uncomfortable, it might 674 00:52:46,519 --> 00:52:50,480 have some questions, but it's there, It's ready to be used. You 675 00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:52,119 can pick this thing up. You can wield it as a weapon, a 676 00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:57,719 defensive weapon, one that protects and strengthens us, gives us the opportunity to 677 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:02,760 exchange goods and services, build algorith markets, do cool and productive things that 678 00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,880 are good and helpful for us. Rather than having to you know, to 679 00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,760 bounce graight before the board in order to uh, you know, to to 680 00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,639 get some groceries delivered to your door, or to buy a book on the 681 00:53:14,679 --> 00:53:19,360 internet, you don't have to do that. Uh. And so marrying that 682 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:27,039 fundamental technology with real spiritual authority is going to, I think, uh, 683 00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:34,320 demonstrate how in America we can still be a very energetic and productive culture where 684 00:53:34,559 --> 00:53:39,400 the goods and services flow freely, and people with initiative will, uh will 685 00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:46,000 find ways to to plow that, to to plow that, that that insight 686 00:53:46,159 --> 00:53:51,119 and that thoughtfulness into their work and have it bear fruit. Uh, it 687 00:53:51,159 --> 00:53:54,000 can be done. And if, if, if those with spiritual authority, 688 00:53:54,039 --> 00:54:02,519 tested and trusted do not put their hands on the world computer and restrain it 689 00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:07,719 and channel it properly, then others will, whether it's the Chinese, or 690 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,559 Israelis or the European. I mean there are a lot of people scrambling to 691 00:54:12,559 --> 00:54:15,800 figure out exactly how to do this. A lot of those AI companies, 692 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,519 you know, let's face it, they're not particularly American any in any deep 693 00:54:19,519 --> 00:54:23,679 and abiding sense. Uh. So you know, if if, if, 694 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:34,000 if this incredibly powerful and foundational technology is not taken up by those of sufficient 695 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,039 spiritual strength to wield it well, than others will. And that's a future 696 00:54:37,119 --> 00:54:42,239 that I just assume not put us through. All Right, Well, I 697 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:45,199 think that's a great place to end our first conversation, James, Thanks for 698 00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:50,360 your insight to definitely be thinking about that. You know, I the big 699 00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,039 Cooin monastery thing. You know, it's like I have my doubts about it 700 00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:58,880 in terms of system. I'm not sure, i'd have. I love to 701 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:01,440 think about it. People have seen me talk about crypto and my issues with 702 00:55:01,519 --> 00:55:04,960 it, but I think it is a good place to stop at, have 703 00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:08,199 people think about about the different ideas we propose here, and maybe organize another 704 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,679 discussion at some point. That'd be great anytime. Thanks so much. All 705 00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,480 right, thanks Shames's good to talk to you. Cheers. If you enjoyed 706 00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:20,760 these videos and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic world dot com website and 707 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,760 see how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers with 708 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:28,559 perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So go to the symbolic 709 00:55:28,559 --> 00:55:30,880 world dot com and thank you for your support.