1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,840 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:49,600 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today. Bye Bobby Chicone, all around 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,920 Know it All and mister nice guy, Bobby, thank you for joining us 12 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,159 today on Mind over Murder. Thanks for having me. Great to be back. 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,439 We wanted to spend a little bit of time today focusing on a question 14 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:06,519 that has come up in the news recently, and we wanted to get your 15 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:10,840 thoughts on it because you are one of the most expert experts that we know. 16 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,799 So our question for today concerns the Idaho four case. It concerns the 17 00:01:15,879 --> 00:01:21,799 recent destruction of the King Road residence. So our question for today for you, 18 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:26,640 Bobby, is did the King Road residence need to remain intact for bran 19 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,560 Coberger's trial or was it okay to tear it down. I'd considered this a 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,719 lot, and I've come at it from a couple of different angles. And 21 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,000 I've seen some of my two coin counterparts out there expressing pretty much I think 22 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,560 I have a much different opinion than most of them from my experience as an 23 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:48,040 investigator, from my experience as a forensic investigator, and from my experience on 24 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:51,519 the federal level. One thing we do that's different than a lot of detectives 25 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:53,480 my brother was a detective MBD. We are married at the hip at our 26 00:01:53,519 --> 00:01:57,159 prosecutor, so when we take the case to trial, we really take it 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,959 to trial. And as an attorney also that'll we helped me. I sat 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,879 at the government table on many big trials, in front of many juries. 29 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:07,640 My brother, who was a detective, would show up, talk to the 30 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,479 ADA, maybe testify, maybe get prepped. One time the day before, 31 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,280 and that was pretty much it. On the federal level were much more involved 32 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:17,919 in the trial process and the prep for trial and things like that. And 33 00:02:19,319 --> 00:02:23,159 additionally, the last angle I come at it was a much more recent one. 34 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:24,439 I recently, for the first time in my life, served as a 35 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,080 jura on a murder trial here in California. I was a jura of for 36 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:32,560 a five month what they call in California murder with Special Circumstances, which is 37 00:02:32,599 --> 00:02:36,680 a deaf peditively eligible case. And it was a five month trial, and 38 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:39,840 I sat in the jury box as a jura looking at evidence, and the 39 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,960 murder took place in the victim's home. We had two different forensic teams process 40 00:02:46,039 --> 00:02:50,520 it about a month apart, first the county CSI and then a state CSI, 41 00:02:50,599 --> 00:02:53,639 and they testified at length, and they brought in their pictures and their 42 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,080 drawings and their videos and things. So I think I have a healthy understanding 43 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,840 of the value of a And the first thought that I had when I was 44 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,840 reading a lot of the online stuff and many of my counterparts of the true 45 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:12,159 crime world is it's more of an emotional response and reaction. It's also people 46 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:15,599 think that all juries go to the home where the crime took place. And 47 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,800 that's a rarity, and it doesn't happen all the time. There has to 48 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,159 be a special motion made for that to happen, and there has to be 49 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:24,800 a specific or unique benefit. In my case that I was a jur on 50 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,680 just recently. The house where a murder took place is still standing. It's 51 00:03:29,719 --> 00:03:32,520 about three miles from where I live. And we were one don't go by 52 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,240 the house because you're not supposed to research as a jura. You're only supposed 53 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,400 to consider a thing in the court room that go on the record. So 54 00:03:38,439 --> 00:03:42,680 the judge was always he had a standard daily admonishment, don't watch the news, 55 00:03:42,719 --> 00:03:46,919 don't research this online, don't go by the house. Never in the 56 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:50,439 trial the five months of the trial that I think we would have benefited from 57 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:53,759 going and seeing that house. We saw lots of photographs, we saw video, 58 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:59,280 we heard testimony from the CSI investigators that did all the analysis and showed 59 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,960 us the diagram of the house and where the person was standing and how the 60 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,120 perpetrators got into the house. And so I never thought that it would benefit 61 00:04:06,199 --> 00:04:09,360 us much. Standing in the kitchen where he was stabbed. It at but 62 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,439 two men. Both of them testified, and I think there's an emotional reaction. 63 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,759 I know that the families of the victims in Idaho were against it when 64 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,800 I heard I always defer to the prosecutors. The prosecutors this case have the 65 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:24,639 most knowledge inside knowledge of the evidence that they need to get a conviction. 66 00:04:24,759 --> 00:04:27,920 And believe me, they don't want to lose this case. They don't want 67 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,959 to be the next martial clock. They don't want to be a person who 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,959 loses a high profile case. The prosecutors do not want that. And so 69 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:40,399 if they had any concern that leaving that house in place would help them convict 70 00:04:40,399 --> 00:04:46,000 Brin Coburger or destroying the house would compromise in any way their ability to convict 71 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,399 Barron Coburger, believe me, they would have wanted and made a motion to 72 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,360 keep that house in place. Now, the other thing to remember is that 73 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:55,040 house is private property. It doesn't belong to the state. It doesn't. 74 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,079 I don't know if it belongs to the university or not. It does now. 75 00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:02,040 It was private property in it was donated to the University of Idaho by 76 00:05:02,079 --> 00:05:05,439 the landlord. I think the landlord was trying to get out from Monday. 77 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,120 Sure but he donated that after the murders. Correct, And my understanding is 78 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,839 that they're going to put like a monument there or something to the victims, 79 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,680 which is I think appropriate. But the actual benefit of having the jury, 80 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,000 if the jury was going to visit the house at all, they may not 81 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,079 have, and most murder trials they don't, even if the house is available 82 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,199 and still standing. It's more for TV. Got a lot on TV and 83 00:05:26,199 --> 00:05:30,079 stuff, but in reality, most murder trials take place without the jury going 84 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,959 to the house, and certainly in the case that I just and by the 85 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:36,199 way, we found guilty on all ten counts, including murder with special circumstances, 86 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,720 without having to go to the house. The CSI investigators did a great 87 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,839 job at laying out the foundation of what they did in the house, and 88 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,920 we saw the video and the walkthroughs and the drawings and the photographs and all 89 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:51,560 the lab examinations. So I think there is an emotional kind of argument, 90 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:57,519 don't do anything that might even remotely risk. But when I heard the prosecutors 91 00:05:57,519 --> 00:06:00,240 in this case did not have a problem with it, I said, you 92 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,720 know what, I will defer to their judgment. They know more about this 93 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:08,000 case than I do they probably mock trial this, which means they probably had 94 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,600 a jury come in, maybe people at work in the office, and hear 95 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:14,560 potential testimony. And I think that in the overall weight of the evidence that 96 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,839 they have, they think they are probably pretty sure that they can get a 97 00:06:16,879 --> 00:06:23,000 conviction without the jury visiting that house. And so the defense and the prosecutor 98 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,079 both agreed. For me, once I heard the prosecutors did not protest the 99 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,040 house being destroyed, that was good enough for me. You're uniquely qualified to 100 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:34,319 talk about this, Bobby, because not only have you been a career FBI 101 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,680 agent, you've also worked in film and TV, written and produced for television. 102 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:46,600 So is the idea of the jury getting on a bus and trapesing off 103 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:49,720 to go look at a murder scene? Is that more of a creation of 104 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:55,920 what we watch on our televisions. It does happen, And I've been trying 105 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,319 to research this on and I can't find like the percentage of times that happens, 106 00:06:59,399 --> 00:07:01,399 but it's been very low. It's not every jury, it's not even 107 00:07:01,439 --> 00:07:04,360 half the jury's. It's got to be very low. And each state, 108 00:07:04,399 --> 00:07:08,920 of course, has different laws respect to murder. Although I prosecute a lot 109 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,560 of murder cases on the federal level, and because there's a lot of violations 110 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,279 that if you kill somebody during your bank robbery, if you kill somebody during 111 00:07:15,279 --> 00:07:17,319 your kidnapping. In my case, we had a murder charge called murder and 112 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,519 native racketeering, which means if you're a member of a gang or mafia family 113 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:26,279 and you committed a murder to either maintain or increase your standing in that criminal 114 00:07:26,399 --> 00:07:29,319 organization, that's a federal murder, that's a federal crimes. I have a 115 00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:33,319 lot of experience prosecuting murders on the federal side. It was unheard of to 116 00:07:33,399 --> 00:07:36,800 actually do a jury visit to the scene of the crime. And like I 117 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,519 said, I think each state is different. There are different rules about when 118 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,279 you can make that motion and why. In most cases, I would think 119 00:07:44,319 --> 00:07:48,720 you've got to show some additional benefit because look, CSI teams nowadays are very 120 00:07:48,759 --> 00:07:53,519 sophisticated the tools that they have, and even in the King's Roadhouse, by 121 00:07:53,519 --> 00:07:57,040 the way, after the CSI teams went through it, the FBI came in 122 00:07:57,079 --> 00:08:01,680 with a laser scan team. It was called on total station when I was 123 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,040 doing it. The technology is obviously much more dance now, but they can 124 00:08:05,079 --> 00:08:09,879 come in and they can literally do three D or a four D scan of 125 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,120 the house, and they can do computer graphics that can really take you inside 126 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,920 that house these days, for whatever benefit the jury might get out of that. 127 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,680 So I think that this case in some ways will call out a little 128 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:26,319 more for the jury knowing, because I think the movement of the perpetrator in 129 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:28,959 this case, the movement through that house, is going to be an issue. 130 00:08:30,399 --> 00:08:33,000 And I think we already heard that with from some of the defense, 131 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,600 like he was only in there X number of minutes and how could he do 132 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,600 this and get here and get there? But I think with computer generated graphics 133 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,759 and with pictures and photographs and video people walking through, I don't think you 134 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:48,039 get that much more of an additional benefit by actually standing in that house. 135 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:50,600 I think that the jury's going to be taken through that house in detail with 136 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,360 both the computer graphics and stuff, and you'll be able to see, what 137 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,000 was it eight minutes? So I remember when it first came out, they're 138 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,000 like, oh my god, he was only in there X number of minutes. 139 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,240 So I think his movement through the house, upstairs, downstairs, down 140 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:05,320 a hallway into a room, I think that's all going to be relevant and 141 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,279 it's going to come out. So I think in that respect, I think 142 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,559 people said, oh my god, don't destroy the house because it's going to 143 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,559 be an issue. The defense may allege he could not have done it in 144 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,320 the time frame that the prosecuting sution is setting out. But I think you're 145 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,480 going to be able to show that he could do that in that timeframe with 146 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,639 computer graphics, with sketches, with photographs, with video, and I think 147 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,399 the prosecution probably obviously feels that way, or they wouldn't have been okay with 148 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,080 the house being destroyed. Are there times that you can think of when it 149 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:41,480 might be a truly terrible idea to bring a jury to a crime scene. 150 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,679 Has there been a time that you're aware of, or circumstances that you can 151 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,960 think of, in which a jury was brought to the crime scene to visit 152 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:50,639 and it was like, oh, man, we miscalculated. This is terrible. 153 00:09:52,159 --> 00:09:54,200 This should not have happened. Personally, I think, like in almost 154 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,960 any case, that could be because what you're doing when you bring a jury 155 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,600 to a crime scene, like every time you do something like that, either 156 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,360 in the courtroom or outside, you're giving the defense a chance to muddy the 157 00:10:05,399 --> 00:10:09,720 waters. And the more chances the defense has of mudding the waters. Remember 158 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:15,159 they only have to get one reasonable doubt in one person to get that acquittal. 159 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,360 You open up an opportunity, possible opportunity for the defense. And I 160 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:22,440 think that's one of the things the prosecution consider it. It's this is another 161 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,000 chance for the defense to get the jury in a mindset of oh no, 162 00:10:26,039 --> 00:10:28,960 it couldn't have So I think they're very confident what they have to show the 163 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,519 jury as far as sketches and videos and photographs and computer graphics or whatever. 164 00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:37,159 And I think that they may have felt and I think this is probably true 165 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:39,120 in a lot of cases, is getting the jury out of the courtroom and 166 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:46,120 getting them into a visceral environment. It could create another opportunity for the defense, 167 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:50,840 and you always try to minimize those opportunities. And I think that everybody 168 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,080 has a different everybody's in a different physical fitness thing and all that, and 169 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,879 not everybody who's dene is like these ultra marathon runners will go around the world 170 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:05,879 running races. I get tired of just looking at a Facebook teetles. So 171 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,639 I think everybody comes at it with a different fitness level. Somebody could get 172 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,240 in there and say, oh yeah, I can see somebody getting from the 173 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,080 ed end of that whole way out that door and up those stairs, and 174 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,120 somebody else might not. It's in a different physical state. So I think 175 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,159 that any chance you can get to minimize the amount of opportunities the defense has 176 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,399 to muddy the waters is a good thing, because that's all they need, 177 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,320 one doubt in one juror's mind, and they're successful. And so I think 178 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:35,159 that in many cases, I can't I've actually thought about this. I can't 179 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,879 think of a reason that the jury would benefit by a physical visit to the 180 00:11:39,919 --> 00:11:45,320 house, considering you're going to have professional CSI investigators sitting in the witness chair 181 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,759 saying this is what I did, these are the sketches I made, these 182 00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:50,879 are the photographs I took, and this is where this was found. This 183 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,639 is where that was found. The level of sophistication in the CSI teams. 184 00:11:54,639 --> 00:11:58,600 And I just sat through in my trial two different CSI teams, one one 185 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:03,559 from the camp and went from the state of California in my trial, and 186 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,240 they did tremendous jobs at taking us through the crime scene. And the house 187 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,159 is still available. The house where our victim was killed was still standing. 188 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,120 But I don't even think that I would have benefited much as a Jura walking 189 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:18,159 through that house, knowing what I know from the crime scene investigator's testimony in 190 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,000 there and what they brought in as far as their exhibits. I've racked my 191 00:12:22,039 --> 00:12:26,559 brain about it. I think that in another kind of case, it might 192 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,720 be different if if you had an eyewitness, and this is one of those 193 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:31,159 things, if you had an eye witness, and we do have an eyewitness 194 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:33,320 in this case, right, But if you have an eyewitness, say that 195 00:12:33,399 --> 00:12:37,320 says I was standing in the apartment window and I looked across the street and 196 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,519 this is what I saw. But then when you get on scene and you 197 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:46,240 realize anybody standing in that window at this time of night probably couldn't see what 198 00:12:46,279 --> 00:12:48,759 they're claiming they saw, So something like that it might help. But I 199 00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:52,399 don't think that you have that in this case. I think you have the 200 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,960 one eyewitness potential kind of if you want to call them, I guess we 201 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,159 can call them an eyewitness. But the one roommate who saw him walk at 202 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,960 her and then but that really wasn't I think her testimony, which I'm assuming 203 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,519 we're going to hear is going to be enough. I don't think the jurists 204 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,840 have to stand where she was standing at the time of night, because you're 205 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:13,440 not going to get them in there at four am. I think that her 206 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,879 testimony will stand on its own. If she's believable, the jury will be 207 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:20,080 able to believe it. And I think that I'm not making any judgment on 208 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:24,200 her testimony. I'm just saying that I think from her testimony, I don't 209 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,720 think the jury would get any additional benefit of standing where physically where she was 210 00:13:28,759 --> 00:13:31,759 standing, because she's going to testify to where she was standing or what she 211 00:13:31,879 --> 00:13:35,559 saw, and then the CSI investigators are going to show that where she was 212 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,080 standing through their analysis and their work as well. So I think that from 213 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,759 the things that I saw, it falls into two categories. The people that 214 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,559 are outraged that the house is being demolished. Number one is lack of experience 215 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,120 in the courtroom, and number two, it's more of an emotional response, 216 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,120 for example, the families and things like that. And I think that there's 217 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,399 this fear of don't do anything that could potentially jeopardize the convictions. And I 218 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,960 get that. I get that concern, but it's probably in this case such 219 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,480 a minuscule actional benefit if any. And I think the prosecutors weighed that before 220 00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:11,320 they came out with a position, because the prosecution does work with the families. 221 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,919 They talk to the families. Even before the arrest, they were working 222 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,519 with the families and things. And I know that the prosecution's decision goes against 223 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,159 some of the family wishes, but I think in this case, now that 224 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,320 they've got to defend at in custody facing trial, I think their main concern 225 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:28,519 is for that conviction. Not that you ever want to go against the family 226 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,519 wishes, but the family's not trying the case. The prosecutor are trying the 227 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:35,840 case. They have the experience in these kinds of cases, and they don't 228 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,600 want to lose this case. Believe me, if they thought that it would 229 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:45,000 compromise their ability to get a conviction, they would not have been on board 230 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,919 with destroying the house. I just have to feel that way. I don't 231 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,320 know these prosecutors. I don't know, but I know in general, I 232 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,039 know prosecutors are many good friends of Mint. Of prosecutors. You both know, 233 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,600 Fancy Haik's a good friend of mine, and Chant former state federal prosecutor. 234 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:01,399 We've talked about this, and the prosecutors are comfortable with it, and 235 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,879 they know most about the evidence against Coberger. Then I'm pretty comfortable that they 236 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,960 feel that there's not a tremendous amount, if any, benefit of keeping that 237 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,399 house in place. They might not have, even at the thousands in place, 238 00:15:11,679 --> 00:15:15,600 the judge may not have let the jury go and visit the house. 239 00:15:15,679 --> 00:15:18,799 It's got to be certain. It's not It doesn't happen in every case, 240 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:20,080 and there has to be a certain you have to have. You have to 241 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,960 show how the jury will benefit by going physically to the house, beyond what 242 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,799 testimony and exhibits they're going to see in the court. Do you think there's 243 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:33,879 a desire on the part of prosecutors to control And I don't mean that in 244 00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:37,480 a judgmental way, but in other words, they want a tightly focused, 245 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:43,399 strong presentation that's in depth, that shows detail and builds the narrative, the 246 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,240 story that they're trying to convince the jury this is how we believe this crime 247 00:15:48,279 --> 00:15:56,679 took place. And anything that's outside of their focused but fair presentation is too 248 00:15:56,759 --> 00:15:58,960 much of an X factor for them. Oh sure, And that's what I'll 249 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,159 to by saying they don't want to give the defense any opportunity to bring something 250 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,039 in that could just muddy the waters. That no, because remember the defense 251 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,200 doesn't have to prove anything, they just have to muddy the waters and create 252 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,679 a doubt in one juror's mind. And yeah, I definitely believe that prosecutors 253 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,639 are sometimes fearful of those opportunities and they look for those opportunities, they look 254 00:16:18,679 --> 00:16:22,000 to limit those opportunities of the defense to do that. And I think that 255 00:16:22,279 --> 00:16:27,159 when you want the jury to make the decisions based on the evidence that comes 256 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:32,720 out in the courtroom, through testimony and through exhibits on the record, and 257 00:16:32,799 --> 00:16:36,240 you want them to make that there's always going to be some emotional level, 258 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,960 on some level, some emotional investment by the jury in the case, of 259 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,320 course, even in the case I just sat. As a jury, they 260 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:45,080 want us to feel for the victim, and you always do. But I 261 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,159 think you also want on some level the jurors to be objective and to be 262 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,240 Okay, here's the objective evidence, and you don't want them making too much 263 00:16:52,279 --> 00:16:56,559 of an emotional decision. You want them basing the decision on the evidence presented 264 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,000 at trial, and I think that a visit to the house house is more 265 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:07,400 of a visceral type of experience and will more likely go towards a emotional response, 266 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,680 because again, they're going to be presented with all the CSI material, 267 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,599 the investigators are going to testify, they're going to bring in all of the 268 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,039 exhibits, and so they're going to know. So the only benefit they'll have 269 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,599 a standing in that house is going to be a visceral slash emotional one. 270 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,160 And the prosecution probably doesn't need that or want that. They want the juris 271 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,960 to look at the evidence objectively presented to them in court on the record and 272 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,319 make their decision. And I think they feel confident that they have enough of 273 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:40,880 that evidence for twelve people to be conventionnanimously of Coburger's guilt. Can you talk 274 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,599 a little bit about some of the technology that's available that can place the jury 275 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,000 like at the scene that would make go into a scene completely unnecessary. You 276 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:56,079 referenced doing a laser scan of the house. Talk about some of that technology 277 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,359 that's available. An easy way for people to think about it is now days, 278 00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:02,839 if you're going to if you search, if you're like in the in 279 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,880 the market for a new house. There's rarely time when you can go on 280 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,279 Zillow or realtor dot com or whatever where there's not a video visit to the 281 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:14,039 house. Right, they go through the house with these drones and you can 282 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,319 stop and you can do a three sixty look at down the hallway and things. 283 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,200 Well, take something like that and blow it up on steroids, because 284 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,319 that's what the CSI teams have now. And so not only when you look 285 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,720 at a house one view of it, right, the CSI teams with that 286 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:30,640 computers, they can take a house and they can do it right now at 287 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,359 four o'clock in the afternoon. They can take all their video stuff and then 288 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,079 they can make it look like it's for in the morning. They can do 289 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,680 that with the computers. And so they they're going to make it feel like 290 00:18:38,799 --> 00:18:41,640 you've walked through that house. They can do that, and now I don't 291 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,079 know if they will, but they certainly can. I've seen the technology that's 292 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:49,480 available. And then some BSI teams use that can make it feel like you're 293 00:18:49,519 --> 00:18:53,960 walking right through that house just like you would on reeltor dot com or zillo 294 00:18:55,079 --> 00:18:57,160 or whatever one of those things you use. You can stop at any point, 295 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,440 and you can rotate ten degrees, forty degrees this way, whatever, 296 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,359 and you can look. And so I think that's the type of and most 297 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,319 of us have seen that stuff. So I'm relating that to most of people 298 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:11,160 that know what I'm talking about because they've seen that on realtor websites and stuff, 299 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,799 and so I think it's like that, but much more boosted. You're 300 00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:18,079 going to be able to know exactly what that house was. The furniture is 301 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:19,799 going to be laid out exactly. They already have videos so they know where 302 00:19:19,839 --> 00:19:23,839 every piece of furniture, every mark on the wall, everything is going to 303 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,519 be in that computer generated thing and or the video that the CSIS took while 304 00:19:29,559 --> 00:19:30,839 they were in there. I want to switch to yours for a second, 305 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:37,519 Bobby, and not move too quickly past this recent trial that you were involved 306 00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:41,519 in. Both Kristin and I had the same reaction when we were talking to 307 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:45,680 you the other day. We were so surprised, how the heck does a 308 00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:52,519 jury end up including a person who is a former FBI agent, longtime investigator, 309 00:19:53,039 --> 00:19:57,960 and an attorney. I feel like you've got three strikes against you because 310 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,319 of all your experts, not that many years ago, I was asked to 311 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,599 be on a jury that involved a violent crime, and the judge asked, 312 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,880 is there anyone here whose lives have been impacted by a violent crime? And 313 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,960 I said yes, and he asked me and I told him, and at 314 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,359 first he looked at me, like, you're not making this up. Your 315 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,400 sister's a murder victim. But I told him briefly what had happened. And 316 00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:25,079 they couldn't get me off that jury fast enough. And this wasn't even a 317 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:30,640 murder trial, this was a violent assault. How does someone like you, 318 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,480 with all of your expertise end up on a jury. That's a good question. 319 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,480 All my colleagues and all my families say this, have asked the same 320 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,480 thing. And I don't know the answer other than I go every year when 321 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:42,519 I get called for jury duty, and I show up, or I do 322 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:45,519 the phone thing, call in and if you have to show up the next 323 00:20:45,599 --> 00:20:48,119 day, we'll let you know the night before. And I've always done that, 324 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,960 and sometimes some years you don't have to show up. And some years 325 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,079 I go in and sit in the big room and don't get into a small 326 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,839 room. And then some years I get into the small room and then you 327 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:57,839 get questioned, and then you get thrown off, and so all of those 328 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:00,759 things have happened to me over the last ten years. I go every year 329 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:03,920 what I'm called, I do my civic duty. This year, I did 330 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,400 the same thing. On June fifth. I went into the courthouse and we 331 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,119 went from the big rooms to the small room, and then then they put 332 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:12,480 a bunch of people in and we asked a bunch of questions what we call 333 00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:15,759 wardier. They asked you those questions that you said, and a bunch of 334 00:21:15,759 --> 00:21:19,319 things. And in this particular case, we knew because they told us if 335 00:21:19,319 --> 00:21:22,160 the big group was separated, and then a smaller group, but still a 336 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,599 big group went into the court group so maybe fifty sixty people, and they 337 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,400 said, this is going to be a five month trial. It's a murder 338 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:33,200 with special circumstances trial. So they had us fill out this big took us 339 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,119 like two hours to fell this big questionnaire, and then we were able to 340 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,039 leave and come back the next day. They prosecuted, and the defense had 341 00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:41,920 a chance to read those questionnaires I laid out. I was an FBI agent 342 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,319 for twenty seven years. My dad was a cop, my brother was a 343 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,240 cop, I'm attorney, and so they started they were going to pick twelve 344 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:51,880 jurors and ten alternates. Because it was a five month trial. You're going 345 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:53,240 to lose people, and they knew that. And so when it was my 346 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,079 turn to be wardired, the prosecutor of course had no problem with me being 347 00:21:57,079 --> 00:22:02,640 on the jury, and the defense asked me questions, and they said, 348 00:22:02,759 --> 00:22:07,240 I think they were more interested and more desirous of my knowledge of the law 349 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,960 and the presumption of innocence and the burden on the government to prove everything, 350 00:22:11,039 --> 00:22:15,240 And so he questioned me. The Defense Council questioned me at length. When 351 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:18,400 I was in the FBI, one of my kind of little side duties was 352 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,720 I taught non agent non attorney agents that means they were FBI agents and warrant 353 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,079 attorneys plenty of that. I taught them fortally legal instruction. So I taught 354 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:29,519 them mainly fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments, and so we would get 355 00:22:29,559 --> 00:22:33,160 a packet from our principal legal advisor. Every office has one. It mainly 356 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,839 related to adverse rulings. So if the FBI lost the suppression hearing, when 357 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,319 the second Circuit, or my case, the Eastern District of New York. 358 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,759 Any adverse rulings against the FBI anywhere in the country, we would have to 359 00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:47,359 review them, and then we would prepare a lecture for the other agents and 360 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,039 say, hey, look it was an agent Saint Louis. This is what 361 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,519 happened and the evidence got suppressed. This is why let's not do that. 362 00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:56,640 You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 363 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:03,920 our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. The defense council knew that 364 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,799 I taught fourth, fifth and sixth Amenment issues and he had by and that 365 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,119 I worked with informants and cooperating witnesses. And the interesting thing was this was 366 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,880 a case with six people charged with murder, but there was only one of 367 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,119 those six was the defendant at my trial for a number of reasons, and 368 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,079 he actually was during the course of the trial, during the course of the 369 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,519 case, during the murder, the conspiracy, he was an informant for the 370 00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:29,759 San Francisco Police Department. There was a layer of confusion and a layer of 371 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,839 the defense was going to allege that he was not guilty. And I think 372 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,880 that he thought that I could help the rest of my fellow jurors with some 373 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,000 of those issues and how an informant operates and all that kind of stuff. 374 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:47,000 And the San Francisco detective testified for the defense in the case, and it 375 00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:48,599 was a multi layer case. It was very interesting. There's been a poorly 376 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:52,759 written book about the case. Dateline was in the courtroom every day, and 377 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:57,400 Dateline is now episode about the case. I think the defense council thought and 378 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,920 quite frankly rightfully, so that I would be fair and objective and look after. 379 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,480 I will admit after the opening statements the very first day, when the 380 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:08,920 prosecutor laid out the case and the defense came up, I was not convinced 381 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,559 of guilt. Day one of the trial and just in a nutshell, the 382 00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:17,680 prosecution admitted to the fact that there were six people involved in the conspiracy commit 383 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,000 murder. There were two people that carried out. Only two people carried out 384 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,759 the murder. Both of them testified. One said he did it, one 385 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:25,440 said I don't know what you're talking about. It wasn't there. But the 386 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:29,720 prosecution pointed to the defendant and said, we admit that guy sitting over there 387 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,039 didn't know either of the two killers. Never spoke to them, never exchanged 388 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:36,599 emails with them, never had a text with them or a phone call with 389 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,279 them. But he's just as guilty of the murder as they are. And 390 00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:41,160 you'll hear from them. One will testify for us and one will testify for 391 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,839 the defense. And so I'm like, if he didn't have any connection to 392 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,400 the two killers, one of whom's going to come in here and tell us 393 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,240 that they killed them and say, I don't know that guy the dramatic scene 394 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:53,799 and TV, do you see the defendant the courtroom today? Can you point 395 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:56,559 him out? Neither killer could because they never knew the guy. They never 396 00:24:56,599 --> 00:25:00,920 met this guy. They never met him, they never change in text with 397 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,119 him. Wow. And so I'm sitting there day two of the Trigo and 398 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,519 Okay, prosecution, you better bring your a game because right now, if 399 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:11,240 I were just from opening statements, I would not be finding him guilty beyond 400 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:14,279 a reasonable doubt. And during the course of the trial, obviously there was 401 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:15,960 a lot of evidence that came out that he knew what was going on. 402 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,319 He knew those two guys were hired by his friend. He kept peppering his 403 00:25:19,319 --> 00:25:22,440 friend with questions about who these guys were, with a competent to pull off 404 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,519 the job. Once the night of the murder, he was texting his friend, 405 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:27,559 are they done yet? Can I go back in the house and get 406 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:33,000 the artwork. So there was a lot of texts between him and his buddy, 407 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,680 who hired the two killers. His buddy was previously convicted of the murder. 408 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,559 So it was one of those things where I don't think the defense was 409 00:25:38,599 --> 00:25:41,720 too worried about me just coming in saying, oh, anybody in the police 410 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,240 arrest is guilty, because first of all, I wouldn't have done that. 411 00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:48,759 I was coming in there with a very objective. I knew what the presumption 412 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:51,279 of innocence was, and I knew the bird. The government had to meet 413 00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:55,400 with me and with at least a handful of my fellow jurors. Once we 414 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,039 got in the room, I was elected dury Foreman. It was the closing 415 00:25:59,079 --> 00:26:02,279 statements in the prospers you should actually push the ball over the line. They 416 00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:06,359 had the graphics where they moving graphics where they showed the times of the texts 417 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,079 and the locations and the phones and all of the different players. The conspiracy 418 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,920 just really came to life and took on the color of the conspiracy because we 419 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,880 had a lot of technical testimony about cell phone towers and how cell phones work, 420 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,680 and by the way, that's going to be detailed in the Coburger case 421 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,880 as well. And that was key here because they were admitting this guy didn't 422 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,640 know them. He wasn't there when the murders took place. He didn't know 423 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,400 the guys that killed him. He never talked to them or texted them. 424 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,680 And so the movement of the phones and the texts and the timing of the 425 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,359 text and they did that all on this moving graphic where you just see you 426 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,359 see all the stuff that small bits of evidence all came up and created this 427 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:49,119 picture and an amazing job in closing, And a couple of my fellow jurors 428 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,000 said, yeah, like I wasn't convinced until that closing. In the closing 429 00:26:52,039 --> 00:26:56,519 he was showing you evidence that came into the record. But it was so 430 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,920 much of a five months that he was able to tie it all together. 431 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:03,839 And I think we deliberated about eight hours or nine hours before we had a 432 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,559 verdict on all ten counts. There was a murder account, and then there 433 00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:11,160 was a bunch of fraud counts. They emptied the victim's IRA and his bank 434 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,960 accounts and his house, and actually they were trying to sell his house. 435 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,319 There was a lot of fraud charges too, because they did a power of 436 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,279 attorney, a fake power of attorney to try to sell his estate. And 437 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,880 that's how ultiably they were caught. But yeah, so that's as a long 438 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,559 answer to a question of I don't know how I got on. You'd have 439 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:29,000 to ask the defense attorney. But I definitely went in there with an open 440 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:32,200 mind, and I definitely, on day one or two year trial, was 441 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,279 not convinced that that guy's guilt. But you have to know conspiracies, and 442 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:40,960 conspiracies are if you do substantial action furtherance of the conspiracy, then you're just 443 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,200 as guilty as the people who pulled a trigger in this case stabbed the victim. 444 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,039 And then that was the case. The prosecution put on an overwhelming amount 445 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,200 of evidence into the record that proved his role in the conspiracy. So it 446 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,599 goes to show you that a strong close and closing argument is actually much more 447 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,799 important than a strong opening. So that's why they don't call it an opening 448 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,200 argument. They call it an opening statement. So they have an opening statement 449 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,240 and a closing argument. Because when you make an opening statement. It really 450 00:28:07,319 --> 00:28:10,480 is just that it's just a statement. It's not supported by anything. It's 451 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,400 just your opening statement. We're going to show you the evidence says this and 452 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,519 this. But then a closing argument, your argument is supported by the facts 453 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:21,000 in the record. So really it's an opening statement and a closing argument. 454 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,759 The argument is supported by the evidence, and they say that in the record, 455 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:27,359 because you're not allowed to argue anything in your closing argument that isn't supported 456 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,480 by the record. You can say almost anything in opening statements, but in 457 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,839 closing argument you have to point to evidence that came in the record. So 458 00:28:33,839 --> 00:28:37,960 the prosecutor say, and here's the data that came in through so and so 459 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:41,519 from at and T. Remember him, he came in and told you this 460 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,200 and so when he was painting that picture, he was also referencing the witnesses 461 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:51,079 and the evidence in the record that was established during the trial. He can't 462 00:28:51,119 --> 00:28:55,160 just say that. So all of the closing arguments have to be supported by 463 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:56,720 the record. And then when you go into when we went into the jury 464 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:02,240 room, we have three carts of buying and evidence and we open them up. 465 00:29:02,319 --> 00:29:04,640 And because one of the jurors was really not convinced and stuff, and 466 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,240 so we opened everything up and we looked at it, and we went through 467 00:29:07,279 --> 00:29:11,640 it again, and one or two juris so we all and even me I 468 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,960 wanted a little more after hearing the closing argument. Oh yeah, he really 469 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:17,839 painted the picture. And then we opened those binders, we went through the 470 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,559 evidence and we satisfied ourselves that, yeah, the evidence was there overwhelmingly. 471 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:26,200 That's the thing when when a lot of a lot of the defense says anything 472 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,240 in the opening statement, but then when you get to closing arguments, you 473 00:29:29,319 --> 00:29:32,720 have to you only have to stick to what's in the record. I know 474 00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:36,920 that there's really no way of knowing exactly what is going to come down the 475 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,400 road with the Coburger trial, but informed speculation here, what do you think 476 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,759 we can expect to see when the case does go to trial in terms of 477 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,680 evidence presented, motions made, and various other things. There's not a lot 478 00:29:51,759 --> 00:29:55,880 in this case, right, there's I think that if we focus on the 479 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,759 things that we know, right that the bar movement, the Whydlantra. You 480 00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:02,720 know, he admits that he was driving around during the crime, right, 481 00:30:02,839 --> 00:30:04,599 he has to admit that, right because they have that. But why was 482 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,559 he driving around at four am. And had he ever done that before? 483 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,279 And have they given any kind of estimate on the length of the trial. 484 00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:15,039 I haven't seen anything. I haven't seen anything. Now, yeah, they 485 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,599 must know approximately because I'm going through my head and I'm thinking, Okay, 486 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:23,119 how many witnesses are you going to actually have in this case? I don't 487 00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:29,119 know. You may obviously the two roommates that survived will probably testify. The 488 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,039 CSI people will testify. Obviously, the FBI team that went through and did 489 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:37,440 those scans of the house will probably testify. And then maybe some people that 490 00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:41,880 know Coburger may testify. I don't know their evidentiary value of knowing him, 491 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,680 so I don't know. Some of that comes in the sensing phase of the 492 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,880 penalty phase, sometimes afterwards, like the families won't. I don't think the 493 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,079 families will testify, so the penalty phase, if there is a penalty phase, 494 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,400 I hope there is. I don't see a whole lot of witnesses. 495 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,519 I think you're going to have video witnesses that can testify. Yes, that's 496 00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,559 a why Lantra. A lot of technical stuff like that we had in my 497 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,720 trial, which we might have in this trial. Somebody come in and say, 498 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,839 Okay, here's how a cell tower works, and it pings off here, 499 00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:11,200 brings off there. Because if you look at a cell tower in a 500 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,720 map, you draw a circle around it. And if he pinged off that 501 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,440 tower doesn't mean he was to the left of the tower. He could have 502 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,440 been to the right of the tower, or the north to the tower, 503 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,000 to the south of He could be anywhere in this circle. That's what we're 504 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,880 gonna say. I mean he was over here. He could be anywhere in 505 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,359 this circle. So you lay the circle over there. And so I think 506 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,920 you'll have technical testimony on how cell towers work. That's what we had, 507 00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:33,039 how techts work and different things. But as I think the defense is going 508 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,160 to remember, it doesn't have to be a defense. The defense can sit 509 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,559 back and force the prosecutor, which is their burden and their obligation, to 510 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,039 prove beyonder reasonable without his guilt, and that's it. The defense can sit 511 00:31:45,079 --> 00:31:48,119 on their hands. They don't have to give a reason for anything that the 512 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,880 prosecution says. They don't have to respond to it. They just have to 513 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,440 sit pad and they may challenge some of the evidence both pre trial and hearings 514 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,319 and at the trial they may have their own experts come in, and the 515 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,799 defense is allowed to get the lab reports from CSI teams that did it, 516 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:07,759 and they can have their own independent people review those lab results and say it's 517 00:32:07,799 --> 00:32:12,200 not what the government, but the prosecutor's expert says, it means something else. 518 00:32:12,279 --> 00:32:15,440 Or you might have some of that. You might have DNA experts come 519 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,160 in and say, look, we all lived through the OJ trial a generation 520 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,759 ago, where they had DNA evidence and somehow his attorneys, his team of 521 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:28,880 attorneys was able to convince a jury that DNA evidence didn't mean what the overwhelming 522 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,720 opinion of the scientific community in DNA says it meant. You're going to probably 523 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,440 have some of that. They're probably going to have a defense DNA expert come 524 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,119 in and say that DNA does not mean what the government says it means. 525 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,000 And so you'll there'll be a couple of battles of the experts I think number 526 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,079 one on the DNA side, number two on the cell phone side. But 527 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:49,759 that's if the defense choose to challenge that. They don't have to, but 528 00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:52,200 they can choose to challenge that, and they can bring their own experts in 529 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:54,599 that say something different, and so I think that's what you're going to have. 530 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,359 I can't see it being a five month trial like I just do. 531 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,920 But we had six defended. We have one defendant, but six people involved 532 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,559 in the conspiracy, and so they had to tie are defendant to the conspiracy, 533 00:33:05,599 --> 00:33:07,359 which was more difficult. It was never alleged that he did the murder. 534 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,279 So here you have the defendant did the murders, right, and they 535 00:33:10,319 --> 00:33:15,400 think they can place the defendant in that house at the time of the murders, 536 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,359 which is crucial. So the defense, if the defense is going to 537 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,440 challenge anything, it has to challenge Coburger's presence in that house, right, 538 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:27,599 So it has to somehow attack that DNA because that's the prosecutors proved two things, 539 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,440 right, The prosecutor proof is that DNA on that knife sheath, that 540 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:35,119 thumb snap, and then the eyewitness. It's going to be easier for them 541 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,359 to attack the DNA because that's just science. You're not attacking a person. 542 00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:44,519 Yeah, just science. No. Yeah, it's harder to attack basically a 543 00:33:44,599 --> 00:33:47,160 victim because the two roommates. There are some victims as far as I'm concerned, 544 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,200 and so then it's harder to attack a young college girl who's going to 545 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,759 be probably very emotional on the stand if they do testify, and it's harder 546 00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:57,240 for defense to go after something like that because it makes you look heartless. 547 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:00,279 It's easy to attack science because it is not an emotional attachment to science, 548 00:34:00,359 --> 00:34:04,599 right, there's most attachment to this young girl who's been through this very traumatic 549 00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:07,240 event, So it's going to be harder for them to attack. But then 550 00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:09,920 on the other hand, the DNA is much more exact. The DNA says 551 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,599 that's the guy, with the exclusion of millions of whatever how many of the 552 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,800 billions of people. But the eyewin is they don't have to attack her as 553 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,280 much because she didn't get a good look at Coberger. In all honesty, 554 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,679 it was dark. His face was covered. Right, Oh, we've heard 555 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:28,239 so far the bushy eyebrows, which match. It's not like DNA that says, 556 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,239 to the exclusion of a billion other people, that's the guy. So 557 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,559 they don't have to attack her testimony as much as they have to attack. 558 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,639 They really have to attack that DNA because if you put him in that room 559 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:44,239 that night, I think it's game over. Makes sense, Do you just 560 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,199 based on what you know about this guy, do you think he's going to 561 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:52,199 try to testify in his own defense. I think, yeah, yes, 562 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:53,880 the simple answer to your Christians, yes, I think he will try. 563 00:34:54,039 --> 00:34:58,119 I think he will be persuaded. I don't think he will because I think 564 00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:01,320 his attorneys will dissuade him from doing that, and every attorney does that, 565 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,840 by the way. In my case, the defendant did testify in his own 566 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,559 defense, and quite frankly, he didn't do too bad for himself in our 567 00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:13,079 trial. I think, you know, there's a level of arrogance maybe on 568 00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:17,559 Coburger's part or something that we haven't seen that on full display because we really 569 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:22,559 haven't heard too much from him, But there's an underlying I don't know. 570 00:35:22,599 --> 00:35:24,440 I hate to judge anybody about how they look or how they carry themselves, 571 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:29,400 but we all do that anyway, and there does seem to be a little 572 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,480 bit of level of arrogance. We saw a little bit of it on the 573 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:36,440 police body cameras when they pulled him over on the road, but that's the 574 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,800 only real look we've had at him. And I think that he's the type 575 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,760 that wants to get up there and because I think this whole thing, he 576 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,599 thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, and he thinks he'll be able 577 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:47,719 to get up there and dance around the prosecutors, which he won't, and 578 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,679 his attorneys will tell him he won't. It's not like you're going to have 579 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,719 a free flow debate. The rules of testimony favor the people asking the questions. 580 00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,199 I've been a witness in many trials. You just don't get up are 581 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:05,079 aside. Because Murda was allowed to, in my opinion, spout his testimony 582 00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:07,719 way beyond what the prosecutor should have let him do. They should have cut 583 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,679 him off, like our prosecutor my case when I was a jura, when 584 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,960 our defendant testified for himself, they caught him off. You ask yes or 585 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,719 no questions. You don't let him expound. You get him cornered, and 586 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:20,519 you get him a little frustrated because they want to talk more. Murder allowed 587 00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:22,079 to talk, in my opinion, way longer than he ever should have been. 588 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,559 But Coberger, if he does take the stand, the prosecutor is not 589 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:29,519 going to allow him to give some monologue. They're going to close him in. 590 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,840 They're going to box him in with the answer no questions and get it 591 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:35,760 very frustrated because the rules, do they favor the questioner, they favor the 592 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,360 defense or the course examiner has a big advantage over the witness, regardless of 593 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,159 what you saw in the murderer case they do. If they do, what 594 00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:47,239 if the witness does not is not allowed to sit there and debate and argue 595 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,880 and stuff. And that's why, by the way, most defense attorneys almost 596 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,840 always counsel their clients not to get on the stand because they know on cross 597 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,079 examination the prosecutor is going to have the advantage. And where we do see 598 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:04,960 it, we've seen it recently. I think his attorneys will advise him against 599 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,360 it. Whether or not they prevail upon him is anybody's guess. I don't 600 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,320 have a good enough guess because I haven't seen enough of him. I think 601 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,199 he will try, he will want to, his attorneys will tell him not 602 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,159 to. But who prevails, I don't know. I don't know. I 603 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:22,360 think the attorneys will prevail. But his parents may be there and say, 604 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,000 listen to your attorneys. They know, but what's best for you. That's 605 00:37:24,039 --> 00:37:27,840 why you hire them, that's why you pay them. Do what they say, 606 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,239 because they just like the prosecutor I said earlier, they don't want to 607 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,079 lose the case. Defense doesn't want to lose it either. So if he's 608 00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:37,199 saying, don't take the stand, if the defense attorney thinks the client taking 609 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,239 the stand will help rather, they're going to be a proponent of that, 610 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,440 But they almost never do because it almost never does benefit the defendant. Again, 611 00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:46,599 ultimately, the defendant has the right belongs to them. You have a 612 00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:50,039 lawyer for a reason to give you legal advice, and they've been in the 613 00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:52,320 court room a lot more than you have, and who knows whether they will 614 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:58,519 prevail. I'm getting Ted Bundy testifying in his own defense as his own lawyer 615 00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:00,719 vibes from Bran Coberger, which is why I asked the question, Yeah, 616 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:05,119 but Bundy was he was a law school student, did he ever? Yeah? 617 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,440 Finished, but he had enough legal knowledge and and Coburger probably has enough 618 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,840 criminal justice knowledge to think that he could beat the prosecutor at this game, 619 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,840 but he won't. I pick up the same vibe. If Brian Coberger spoke, 620 00:38:17,559 --> 00:38:21,840 for instance, on television tonight, I wouldn't recognize his voice. I 621 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,719 don't think I've ever heard him saying out loud. I've seen him on camera 622 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,719 in the courtroom, but he does give you that vibe that he thinks he's 623 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:35,159 smarter than anybody else. Yeah, it's just those little snippets from that Pennsylvania 624 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,920 whatever the state police they pulled over. You just heard his voice very briefly 625 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,400 then, and obviously in court it's always yes you're on and no you're on, 626 00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:44,440 that kind of thing. It's never really enough to get a good handle 627 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,519 on him. But I'm with you. The physical posturing and all that kind 628 00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:51,519 of stuff tells me, and quite frankly from some of his former students and 629 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,960 classmates that I've seen, seem to indicate this guy thought he was all that. 630 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,880 Oh, let's spend a minute on this before we close, because you 631 00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:05,360 brought up something really interesting, and you worked FBI cases for twenty seven years. 632 00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:10,679 Do you think the law enforcement officers pulling Coburger and his father over twice 633 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:16,840 within a matter of minutes was that deliberate or not? Yeah. So the 634 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,239 FBI came out and said they didn't orchestrate it, right, and I believe 635 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,599 that's to be the case. I thought they did orchestrate it until they made 636 00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:27,599 that statement, because and they could make the statement, try to fool they 637 00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:30,800 wouldn't. The FBI wouldn't do that because it would risk the state case. 638 00:39:30,079 --> 00:39:32,800 If the FBI is caught lying, that's not good for the state case. 639 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,840 And if you orchestra, by the way, if the FPI did orchestrate it, 640 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,760 and I did orchestrate those kind of things when I was with the FBI, 641 00:39:39,119 --> 00:39:43,960 it's perfectly proper. There's nothing improper about that. There were many times 642 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,559 when I was following mobsters around New York City and I needed to know who 643 00:39:46,639 --> 00:39:50,199 was in the car with him, and I would radio, and my partner 644 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,239 was an NYBD detective. He'd get on his citywide radio and radio the local 645 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:58,599 precinct and have a car just follow first traffic infraction, pull them over the 646 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:00,199 first time he rolls, door, stopped sign or something. Pull him over 647 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,280 idea, everybody in the car if you can. And that's perfectly proper. 648 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,079 But if I was going to do that with the FBI, it would have 649 00:40:07,119 --> 00:40:08,719 been the first stop, because if you're following them the way they were, 650 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:14,000 you pull him over, you identify him, whatever information you need to get 651 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:16,760 during this what we call pretext stop you obtain. You don't pull him over 652 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:22,119 the second time right away, because that second stop certainly wasn't orchestrated, because 653 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:23,559 the last thing you want to do is let him get him raised up, 654 00:40:23,679 --> 00:40:27,400 because if you pull him over twice, because I know my mobsters, we 655 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,840 pull him over once. They were because a lot of times we had bugs 656 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:30,840 in the cars. And the minute they pulled away from the company, said, 657 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,639 I think that was the FBI must have told them to do it. 658 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,920 They're wise to us a lot of time and otherwise on one stop and so 659 00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:40,440 a second stop, then they know that the gig is up. Right. 660 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:44,480 When I first saw that, I said, oh, the bu're probably orchestrated 661 00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:47,639 that first stop. And then it was just a really bad coincidence that the 662 00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:52,119 second stop happened because he was speeding or tailgating, and so then you would 663 00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:54,400 go, oh, no, they pulled him over again. They didn't know, 664 00:40:54,519 --> 00:40:58,760 because then he would be like, what are the chances because his own 665 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,760 head, not his father's said, but in his own head, he's like, 666 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:01,840 I just killed four people, and now they pulled me over twice in 667 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,280 ten miles. He would start to raise up and then he maybe take some 668 00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:08,719 actions, which by the way, he did anyway, what we call friends 669 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,199 of countermeasures, which is cleaning the car and throwing his trash in the neighbor's 670 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,239 trash. All of that is fronts of countermeasures. So that may have been 671 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,599 spurred by those two stops too close together, or it maybe just he was 672 00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:22,679 going to do that. Anyway, we won't know. We'll never know unless 673 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:25,760 he tells us. But yeah, when I first heard it, I thought 674 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,800 the first one was orchestrated and the second was just bad luck on law enforcement 675 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:31,239 because he might raise up on it. But then when the FBI came out 676 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,280 and said, but you have to look at the FBI statement that they said 677 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,559 they didn't orchestrated. That doesn't mean the state police did not auchstras. Okay, 678 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:43,039 you know what doesn't mean. But if it was orchestrated at all, 679 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,559 I would think it was the second. The first stop was orchestrated, I 680 00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:49,079 don't think. And even if you were going to do it and then somebody 681 00:41:49,079 --> 00:41:52,000 else trumped you and did it first, you'd be like, oh my god, 682 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:53,800 let's wait a couple of states. Let's wait a day or like three 683 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,199 estates before we pull them over again. Not so close together, you wouldn't. 684 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,639 So that second one was almost certainly not orchestrated, because you wouldn't want 685 00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:05,880 unless you just didn't care and you missed something on the first stop and said, 686 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,239 damn, we got to when we did that too. Yeah, so 687 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,800 we didn't get that. But they really didn't do a whole lot. They 688 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,039 didn't get them out of the car if you pull them out of the car 689 00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:16,320 and you look in the trunk or whatever. That happens on some car stops, 690 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:21,000 but they didn't do that. So I don't know that they got anything 691 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,760 more on the second stop than they already had from the first stop. So 692 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,920 my theory is if one of those was orchestrated, it was the first one. 693 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,119 I just don't see the second one being orchestrated because you would be afraid 694 00:42:30,159 --> 00:42:34,400 you're tipping off your defendant, and you'd wait a couple of states before you 695 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,840 pull them over again. And it sounds like Coberger may have had a heavy 696 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,480 foot and had a tendency to follow too closely, which is I think the 697 00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:44,760 pretext for why he was pulled over. Yeah. Look, most people make 698 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,599 it easy. Those pretext stops are you don't have to follow somebody too long 699 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,400 anywhere for them to commit a traffic violation. And that's that's why they're so 700 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,760 easy to do, because people get pulled over all the time for traffic violations, 701 00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:00,239 rolling to a stop sign, not coming to a full stop at a 702 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:01,599 red light. When you do a right on red, everybody rolls right through 703 00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:06,119 those red lights. Right, you have to come to a full stop at 704 00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:07,800 a red light before you make the right. That's one of the easy ones 705 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,960 to do. And so yeah, it doesn't take much to follow you, 706 00:43:12,159 --> 00:43:15,679 maybe less than five minutes before someone's going to commit a traffic infraction. I 707 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,920 got to tell you, Bobby, I definitely feel a lot more enlightened, 708 00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:24,360 and I feel much better about the decision now to have destroyed that house on 709 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,159 King's Road, because I think I, like everybody else, when that first 710 00:43:29,159 --> 00:43:30,760 happened, my gut instinct, like you said, was oh my god, 711 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,639 this is going to be horrible for the child. What if they need it? 712 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,599 And as a teacher my general role for kids, it's better to have 713 00:43:37,679 --> 00:43:40,639 it and not need it than need it and not have it. Given what 714 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:44,519 you've just told us, I feel a whole lot better about that decision, 715 00:43:44,559 --> 00:43:46,760 and I totally understand where you're coming from. So thank you for taking the 716 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:51,159 time to enlighten us about that. Thank you for having me. Yeah again, 717 00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,039 I get the emotional response, and even me like, on some level 718 00:43:54,079 --> 00:43:59,280 I probably would prefer the house still be there until he's convicted, but we 719 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,480 don't know how long that's going to take. Just because there's a potential trial 720 00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:04,559 date, that doesn't mean that's when it's going to happen. We don't know 721 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:07,920 when it's going to happen. Really, once I heard the prosecutors are okay 722 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,440 with it, then I'm okay with it. Bobby, Thanks for letting us 723 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,360 your expertise. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having me again, you 724 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:15,639 guys, great to see you both. That's going to do it for this 725 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:20,159 episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 726 00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:32,719 you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 727 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:38,559 Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo 728 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:45,000 art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind 729 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:50,280 Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us 730 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:53,280 on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page in 731 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:59,119 the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas 732 00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:05,119 on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.