WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:06.080 In this segment, Richard Dawkins, the famed evolutionary biologists, zoologists and author, 2 00:00:06.440 --> 00:00:14.320 is apparently endorsing the culture associated with Christianity in the face of rising Muslim 3 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:18.359 populations around the world. The author of The God Delusion has taken a hard 4 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:22.960 line approach to insisting that gods are essentially made up. But could this hard 5 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:28.640 line actually be softening as he advocates for the cultural aspects of Christianity? Scott, 6 00:00:28.719 --> 00:00:33.039 can you elaborate more on this article? What's Dawkins talking about? Sure? 7 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:36.000 Sure, So you know we've all heard of Richard Dawkins. He's well 8 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:40.759 known in addition to the scientific credentials you mentioned, but he's a well known 9 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:44.759 in the atheist community. In fact, he's maybe the most famous atheist. 10 00:00:44.759 --> 00:00:48.640 If not the most famous, then he's definitely up there. And so he's 11 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:53.679 well known for his criticism of religion. So he was on British talk radio 12 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:58.479 recently where he was talking about his religious experiences and so on, and although 13 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:02.000 he was happy about the decline of Christianity, he still was kind of, 14 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:03.040 like he said, there was still a soft spot for it, and has 15 00:01:03.040 --> 00:01:10.599 already called himself a cultural Christian. But then he specifically said he started disparaging 16 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:15.519 Islam uh in in exchange for these you know, puffing up Christianity, he 17 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.599 called, he said that Christianity was quote unquote fundamentally decent when compared to Islam. 18 00:01:21.799 --> 00:01:23.359 And that's and you know, that's kind of a double standard. He's 19 00:01:23.439 --> 00:01:27.840 he's it seems like what's good for the goose is not good for the gander 20 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:34.159 with mister Dawkins here, he's condemning things like or he's downplaying and dismissing celebrations 21 00:01:34.200 --> 00:01:40.000 like Ramadan, while you know, while holding up how precious and celebrated Christmas 22 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:45.239 is and things like that. And his comments have not only just kind of 23 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.879 tipped his hand a little bit about what his real approaches, but he's also 24 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:57.040 it's it's kind of fanning the flames of anti Islam sentiments in Europe and especially 25 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:00.079 in the in the current political climate. His failure to then the same level 26 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:07.200 of nuance and understanding to all these different religions I think puts his credibility in 27 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:12.159 question, and his credibility as a critic of religious extremism and of intolerance. 28 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:15.560 The article, by the way, was written by hem and Meta at The 29 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:20.439 Friendly Atheist on April second, twenty twenty four, The Wonderful Hemet Meta great 30 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:28.280 material. I want to unpack this idea that Christianity is fundamentally decent, or 31 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.680 at least more fundamentally decent. And I think that that's something I want to 32 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:35.199 get back to later because I can't just gloss over it and ignore that for 33 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:38.840 the time being. But I do want to first pay attention to this idea 34 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:43.199 that maybe Dawkins has a point. I don't know. Are we, as 35 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:49.960 Westerners, especially us as Americans, more inclined to identify with Christianity or is 36 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:53.840 it the case that we as skeptics, or excuse me and let me backtrack, 37 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.400 are we more inclined to identify or be or have more in common with 38 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.680 Christianity than we do with Islam that's a piece. Or is it the fact 39 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:07.759 that the case that as skeptics we don't agree or conform in any way to 40 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:10.840 either of them? Does Does Dawkins deserve a little bit of credit here, 41 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:15.400 Scott? What do you think? Well? I think that you know, 42 00:03:15.879 --> 00:03:21.360 you hear people talk about how you take credit for your successes and you blame 43 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:23.719 others for your failures, right, And I think we're kind of seeing a 44 00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:27.240 little bit of that here you mentioned you know, what are we used to? 45 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.560 I can speak for myself. I was raised in a Christian family. 46 00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:37.520 I did have the opportunity to live in a community predominantly Muslim community, so 47 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:39.879 I have a little bit of experience from from a couple of different directions. 48 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:43.960 But but yeah, I mean it's it's when you're a child, when you're 49 00:03:43.960 --> 00:03:47.439 growing up, I mean you get used to things, you develop positive associations 50 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:51.520 with many things, and like so many of us, you know, I 51 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:54.280 remember going to church. I remember being with my family. I remember my 52 00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:59.000 parents pitching that as a positive thing that. You know, if you want 53 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.759 to be if you want to grow up to be good, you need to 54 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:03.000 go to church. You have you know, you have to follow these rules. 55 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.560 You have to, you know, be this kind of person if you 56 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:11.000 want to be happy. And like anybody else, I want to satisfy my 57 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:13.639 uh you know, I want my parents to be proud of me. I 58 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:17.360 want my parents to be happy. And so if is he justified or is 59 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:23.360 he I mean I can understand where he's coming from, but I think the 60 00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:29.199 emphasis should be more on the skepticism. I think that just much of what 61 00:04:29.399 --> 00:04:36.279 Richard Dawkins talk talks about is how we we can so easily fall accept things 62 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:41.240 that are that make us feel good about the warm, fuzzy feeling emotional responses, 63 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:45.480 and and he's written much about how we should be careful of that because 64 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.000 that can be misleading. We know our emotions can lead us down down these 65 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:53.639 wrong paths, and so it seems I don't know, it seems like like 66 00:04:53.720 --> 00:04:58.160 it's a disconnect in his mind, but you know, it's a normal human 67 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.839 disconnect. It's it's we all do it to some extent. And I don't 68 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.240 think he's necessarily a bad I do think he's a bad person for many other 69 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:11.680 reasons, but for this in particular. You know, I can't blame him 70 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:16.120 for having positive memories of his childhood, sure, but I think he needs 71 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:19.560 to take that extra step and make sure that the skepticism is the last word 72 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:24.000 in what he says. Yeah. Right, it's easy to get lost in 73 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:28.920 our history that we couldn't help. Right. We're brought up in these families 74 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:33.360 and these customs and cultures that we really are powerless to change, and so 75 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:36.920 we're kind of stuck with them until we, you know, make these small 76 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.160 baby steps, like, you know, perhaps we're doing just by having this 77 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:46.480 conversation Eli, just because our language and our phrases in English or in Western 78 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:51.959 society are riddled with Christian influence, does that make us culturally Christian. I 79 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.360 kind of understand what he's saying. I get what he's trying to describe. 80 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.480 I don't know if culturally Christian is the best way to describe it. I 81 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:05.240 did it first, and then I kind of changed my stance on a little 82 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.319 bit. I can relate a lot to what he's saying. Earlier today, 83 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:12.839 like somebody messaged me and asked me about like my thoughts on what happens when 84 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.920 you die, and I summarized it by saying, basically, like the body 85 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:19.240 that I use while I was alive becomes energy for other living things. Basically. 86 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.839 Then I went and looked at it later and I didn't say while I 87 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:26.399 was alive. I said while I was here, Like I don't believe in 88 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.240 a there. I don't think that there is one, so there by so 89 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:34.560 for me to say here is a product of the Christianity that I was raised 90 00:06:34.560 --> 00:06:40.480 in. And I think the sort of the language and the imagery and the 91 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:46.360 ideas that are just so saturated in society. I think it's It was just 92 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:47.959 I didn't think about it while I was typing it, and I just went 93 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.920 back and read it later, and I was like, that's so weird, 94 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:53.720 and especially like thinking, like knowing that we were going to be recorded, 95 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.079 like doing this article today, and I was like, this is so strange 96 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:00.120 that this is happening to me. To call it culturally Christian again, and 97 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.720 I don't know what's the best way to describe it, but I absolutely relate 98 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:09.920 to having the mechanisms or the the isms, you could say, the Christianisms 99 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.439 kind of ingrained into just your habits. I say things like oh my God 100 00:07:13.480 --> 00:07:15.199 and thank God. Sure, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, 101 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.399 well that's a that's a good a good segue, because I want to kind 102 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:23.480 of talk about some of the things that we pick up and we keep with 103 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:28.480 us. You know, Dawkins talks about celebrating, you know, Christian holidays 104 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:32.680 and things like that. You know, does do those Christians that that are 105 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:36.399 so inclined to celebrate Christmas, for example, does that actually make them a 106 00:07:36.439 --> 00:07:43.279 little bit pagan or ancient Roman because that's where all of those customs were stolen 107 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:47.600 from. It's just a fun mental gymnastics to play, because you know, 108 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:54.839 nothing is fundamentally Christian, even Islam takes its roots from Judaism, and so 109 00:07:55.160 --> 00:08:00.000 it's it's nothing really is owned by any one sect of the Abrahamic religion. 110 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.839 And that's where I kind of want to turn to infidel on because you know, 111 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.399 I mentioned earlier that I wanted to get back to this idea that Dawkins 112 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:15.319 says that when you compare Christianity with Islam, that Christianity is the fundamentally decent 113 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.839 religion, or maybe more decent religion. Infidel I know, just by knowing 114 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:24.079 you that you cannot possibly agree that Christianity is more decent. You know, 115 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.920 what is it that Dawkins is getting wrong? And should we have a preference 116 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.799 between Mosaic law or Sharia law for example? I mean, what should we 117 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:37.039 be more concerned with. Well, it's a little funny when you bring up 118 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.360 Christmas and how some Christians you know, to make them a little bit pagan 119 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:45.240 if they celebrate Christmas. I was raised in a Christian sect that didn't celebrate 120 00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.639 Christmas. It was too pagan for us. So I think that when it 121 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:54.600 comes down to fundamentally decent, I think that Dawkins is looking at a far 122 00:08:54.720 --> 00:09:01.120 more sanitized view of Christianity than I say most of us here in the United 123 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:05.240 States are first looking at as well what I look and of course, once 124 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.440 again goes back to personal experience. You know, I think that Dawkins has 125 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.840 allowed himself to be lulled to sleep by church bells and forgotten that, you 126 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:16.960 know, the doctrine that stands behind it. Whether it's the cathedrals he's talking 127 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.559 about, are the places that I went to growing up. This fundamentally decent 128 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.679 Christianity has been used to establish a patriarchy, to give an excuse for people 129 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:33.279 to abuse and beat their children, subjugate their their wives and women. You 130 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:37.799 know, LGBTQ is an abomination according to them, all these others, and 131 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:41.559 all these other people that I don't think it's going to make a lot of 132 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.679 difference to them in history, whether it was Sharia law or mosaic law. 133 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:52.480 Right now. For me, I'm concerned about mosaic law because it's the one 134 00:09:52.519 --> 00:09:56.320 that's at my front door right now. And so I understand that if we 135 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:00.440 had a fundamental change of people saying, hey, let's put Sharia law in 136 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.480 the play, I'd be like we have a problem here, But last I 137 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:09.200 checked, we had Moses, Mikey Johnson and our Speaker of the House and 138 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:13.159 not somebody who's trying to push Sharia law. So with that in mind, 139 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:18.919 yeah, okay, I think both of them are just about equally terrible. 140 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:24.879 I think that up until the last fifty years or so, Christianity have been 141 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.639 moving towards a more liberalized view. We've seen something a lot different than that 142 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.399 in the last decade to twenty years. So right now, for me, 143 00:10:33.799 --> 00:10:39.039 yes, it's definitely mosaic law my number one concern, and I see nothing 144 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.559 fundamentally decent about what we're talking about here, right and we know just based 145 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:50.960 on the tenets of Christian and ju Hebrew law that you know, some major 146 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:56.720 atrocities have taken place that their followers are completely fine with. And we know 147 00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:01.639 that Christianity at its core is going to be something that is damaging to society. 148 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.279 We've got this long period called the Middle Ages where people were burned at 149 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.960 the stake for being witches, or for being atheists, for being homosexuals, 150 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:15.080 you name it. You know, this kind of thing, unchecked, really 151 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.360 can destroy a society. And that brings me to the point where I kind 152 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:24.840 of want to turn to Scott and get some clarification because I know that you 153 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:30.639 feel maybe we shouldn't be too hard on people, but we shouldn't be too 154 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:33.559 soft on their religion either, And so I'm kind of wondering where is the 155 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.720 dividing line between the rules of a religion and the people carrying out the instructions 156 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:43.799 of said religion. I mean, how do we approach that right right? 157 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:46.440 And that's a great question. Before I answer that, I want to give 158 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.159 kudos to Eli. I thought that was a great story that you shared about 159 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:54.960 your self reflection. I think it's a good reminder that as atheists it's important 160 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.200 that we also look in the mirror too, and that we assess ourselves and 161 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.240 that we are that we make sure that we're home holding ourselves to the same 162 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:05.279 standard as well. So thank you for sharing that. But to build on 163 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.440 what Jimmy, what you and Infidel were saying about about, you know, 164 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.480 the fundamental nature of this religion, I think that's what's one of the things 165 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:18.759 that's most asinine about and about what Dawkins has been saying. I think that's 166 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.000 that's the real problem, is he's kind of glossing that over. I mean 167 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:28.159 religions, as fundamentally religions are irrational beliefs. And so that's the problem, 168 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:31.759 and so much of what Dawkins has written is about specifically that. And I 169 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:37.320 think you're asking specifically about the distinction between the people and the religion. I 170 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:39.600 think that's the problem there. I think that's part of what he's. Part 171 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:45.360 of what he's what is pulling him in that emotional direction is his attachment to 172 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.559 people. But I think that he needs to That's why he needs to apply 173 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.799 it fairly. Okay, if he's going to look at the people of one 174 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:56.600 religion, then he has to compare those to the people of the other religion, 175 00:12:56.679 --> 00:13:01.320 you know, just like any other you know, division of humanity. 176 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:03.000 We're going to have good people and bad people. We're going to have a 177 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.000 mixture, We're going to have people in how many different ways are the Bible 178 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:09.279 interpreted? Right, We're going to have people going all over the place starting 179 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:13.480 with the same material. And so if you're going to judge based off of 180 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:16.679 the off of what the what the people are doing, then then you know, 181 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.519 at least be magnanimous and at least be you know, fair about it. 182 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:24.879 On the flip side of that, we have the religion, and we 183 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:30.240 can't be lifting up a religion because you like the people that are involved in 184 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.320 that. I think the religion aspect of it needs to be. That's where 185 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:37.840 we need to be focusing our critique. That's where we need to be criticizing. 186 00:13:39.039 --> 00:13:43.759 That's where Richard Dawkins needs to be remembering his his skepticism. And so 187 00:13:43.879 --> 00:13:48.480 the line should be between you know, you hear this kind of the saying 188 00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:52.600 in come from many different directions, love the sinner, you know, hate 189 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.320 the sin, that kind of thing, Criticize the action or the or the 190 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:01.159 or the the tenets, and respect and love the person. And so I 191 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:07.080 think that we need to if we're going to criticize a religion, then criticize 192 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.480 the religion. If you're gonna if you want to talk, if you want 193 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:11.159 to feel good about the people, then feel good about the people. I 194 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.440 think that's the decision there. That's the line that you were looking for. 195 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:20.039 Is where where the rubber meets the road, where the you know, where 196 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:24.320 the theology meets the practicality. I think that's where that this that distinction has 197 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.559 to be made. And I would like to see Richard Dawkins, who presents 198 00:14:28.639 --> 00:14:31.600 himself as a skeptic, take that approach as well. Right, And you 199 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:35.279 know you mentioned that you don't have a lot of respect for Richard Dawkins for 200 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:41.279 other things that he said, But you know, he's a he's potentially a 201 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:48.399 fine biologist or zoologist, you know, barring some anti gender comments that he's 202 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.080 made. I shouldn't say anti gender, but but transgender excuse me, anti 203 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:56.159 transgender comments that he's made. You know, he's not a very good historian 204 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:00.279 either, as we can tell. You know, he has no ide what 205 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:05.200 he's talking about when it comes to the nature of Christianity. And I'm not 206 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:07.799 even sure that we should even really care or at least Eli, I don't 207 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:13.200 think that you have a high opinion of Dawkins's opinion. Can you expand on 208 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.159 that a little bit? Yeah? So, I he of course is very 209 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.360 influential. Scott made this point earlier. Yeah, he was extremely influential to 210 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:22.960 me when I was coming into my atheism, and probably to all of us, 211 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.559 into many many people, and as well as I've gone on to start 212 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.360 learning about biology. A lot of what I now can remember is I remember 213 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.159 hearing him say as well So the thing is that I don't agree with them. 214 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:39.440 I don't think Christianity is fundamentally good in the fundamentalists are the ones that 215 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:43.519 I was hoping we're going to get raptured during the eclipse, because I was 216 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.840 really good border like that kind of like being down with But that aside, 217 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.759 even that I don't agree with him, I well, and that's the reason. 218 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.639 I well, that's not the reason that I don't care. But it's 219 00:15:54.679 --> 00:16:00.360 essentially just that he's not dogmatically significant to atheism, like we don't need Richard 220 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.759 Dawkins to, you know, to we don't even to agree with everything Richard 221 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:07.919 Dawkins says. So, yeah, that's that's right. It's not that I 222 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.360 don't care. I think that if it weren't for his opinions about like the 223 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:14.159 things he said about transgend or thing like that, I might I probably would 224 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.240 give a little more weight to what he has to say. I'd like maybe, 225 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:21.159 But that doesn't change the fact that I don't think that it's right to 226 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:25.000 begin with. And his opinion about religion is just like his opinion about you 227 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.080 know, gender and opinion, and it's irrelevant. Okay, well, you 228 00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:32.720 know, getting back to this, idea of cultural Christianity. You know, 229 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:37.120 I want to harken back to something that Infidel said earlier and then give everybody 230 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:38.720 a chance to wrap up. But if Fidel, you know, you said 231 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:45.279 you're more concerned with mosaic law than you are with Sharia law, because mosaic 232 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:49.440 law is what's on your doorstep. But is it potentially our inclination to align 233 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:56.399 with those mosaic roots through Christianity that keeps Sharia law and Islam from encroaching upon 234 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:02.480 our doorstep? I mean, are we choosing some consciously Christianity over something far 235 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:07.240 worse? I don't think so. I think that we're selling ourselves short if 236 00:17:07.279 --> 00:17:11.279 we accept that, well, Christianity is a lesser of evil. So that's 237 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.279 what I'm going to go with. You know, this reminds me of Herci 238 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:22.519 Ali, who had became an atheist and really hates Islam. And I understand 239 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:27.279 very with for very good personal reasons, with knowing her life some of her 240 00:17:27.319 --> 00:17:33.920 life experiences. But now she's converted over to Christianity and it's more of a 241 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:40.160 sounds like a political change than an actual spiritual change. And that's what I 242 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.640 see him doing here, and I'm not interested in going that route. I 243 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:48.440 think that as a society, if we have any hope of doing things better 244 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.920 than we have in the past, we're going to have to find new ways 245 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:57.000 to do those and I don't think that recycling the hat trick from two thousand 246 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:03.240 years ago is going to do that. Whether it's Judaism, Christianity, are 247 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.359 Islam, I think it's time we try something new. And I definitely believe 248 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.119 and maybe I'm being too hopeful, but I believe that we can definitely do 249 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:17.839 better. Absolutely. Scott thirty seconds closing comments befloor Is yours well. I 250 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:22.759 think one of the advantages of ascribing to a philosophy that's not authoritarian gives us 251 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.799 the freedom to criticize our so called leaders, right, and so I'm happy 252 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.880 for that. I think Richard Dawkins needs to put his money where his mouth 253 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.519 is, and I think he needs to if he wants to be a leader 254 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.440 in the skeptic community. I think he needs to be more skeptical and would 255 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:40.519 I would like to, you know, I would like to see him put 256 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.480 the focus back on where at least I thought it was once. Maybe that 257 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:47.960 can't happen, Maybe it can. I don't know. Sure, sure, 258 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.599 Eli. Mostly just that you know, a thin influential was he was. 259 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.240 I don't think that one opinion he has about religion in an interview that he 260 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:03.200 did is worth its own headline. And you know, much like Infidel was 261 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:04.559 saying. And I had the point of a second ago. I was trying 262 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.559 to catch it there and I just lost it. But I can end it 263 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:10.720 with that. I don't think that the one comment he made about religion there 264 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:14.200 is where its own headline. It just goes back to it. It didn't 265 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.160 really matter. Sure, sure. And I want to highlight what Scott had 266 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.799 to say about you sharing your story earlier, you know, because it shows 267 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:26.200 what we're all about here at the ACA and on the nonprofits, because you 268 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:33.680 were just casually or reinvestigating your preconceived notions, right, and that is a 269 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.119 work in progress. It's a constant work in progress being a skeptic to challenge 270 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:40.960 the things you think you know, to admit you were wrong, or to 271 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.960 kind of get to the root cause of why you think the way that you 272 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:47.599 think, rather than just giving up and accepting what people tell you. And 273 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.640 so I'm really glad that you were able to share that you had a real 274 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.720 life scenario that happened, you know, recent hours ago. Yeah, really 275 00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.200 really, and you know it was fitting for the show and for what we 276 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:57.640 stand for.