Everyone, This is Jeff Gersman from giant bomb dot com and you're listening to
our GDC podcast. This is the second of our two podcasts recorded at Game
Developers Conference twenty eleven, back in our office, back in the bar,
and this was originally recorded on Thursday, that's March third, the second,
March second, twenty eleven, and again we packed the bar full of guests,
probably even more than we had the night before, more people off Mike
than they were on, I think, and he'll probably hear a fair amount
of that as the night goes on. This is a noisy, noisy podcast.
I spent some time cleaning it up, eqing it, compressing it,
trying to gate out some of that background noise, but I think you'll hear
as the time wears on, as we get closer and closer to the end,
the guys in the background get more and more restless and threatened to overtake
the actual discussion, So expect some of that and it'll get a little a
little noisy. Probably hard to make out some of that stuff, but there
you have it. It was a very rowdy evening and I hope you enjoy
it. Hereat Hey, what's up? Everybody. It's Jeff Gersman. This
is Giant Bombs g DC Podcast, Day two of two. Let's let's get
that right out of the way here. This will be our final g DC
podcast. We've got a new cavalcade of superstars here. And while we start
all the wait at the what you introduce yourself? Say your name? What
you do? My name is Jeremi s Alaska. I'm the CEO and creer
director of fisel Awesome. Yes, I've been wondering how to pronounce that.
My name is Ben Gilbert and I am a writer for Joyce Dick dot Com.
Yeah you are. Yeah, I'm Brad and I work here. I'm
John Bellamy or Cowboy as many people know. I'm programmer at Naughty Dog Adam
Boys, president of Beefy Media. Oh president, Yes, and ceo.
Do you miss your name of the credits? Like nine times, I put
myself first ahead of anyone else, like somebody Wade. You don't know what
Jack? Okay, I would do great? Next. Uh, Hey,
my name is John and I worked for Disney's Funny. I'm John. I'm
a cabin barn. I'm also John and I and I worked for Harmonics.
Yeah, okay, I'm Jeff I work here. Yeah, sweet in this
base. By the way, you missed it. I set it up,
tee, these things up. So we're back, another day of GDC,
another set of guests here. You know the thing that we keep asking people
we're out the fields. You know, what are people really getting out of
GDC this year? You know, Jeremiah, you've been showing off a game
most of the time. Right, Yeah, that's right. Hybrid our new
title, which is a shooter, and people are really kind of weirded out
that it's a shooter because you know, we know for scribble knots isn't do
you hit why and then have to enter words like head shot exactly head shot.
We're not doing it there. A lot of people don't know there's more
guns and scribt nuts than there is a Hybrid, Right, it's true.
So have you have you been basically like up in a sweet kind of down
again? It's kind of This is actually the first DDC I haven't seen a
panel. I've been literally in a room, locked and changed to death.
It's it's been kind of the same for us. I haven't gotten to see
any panels at all. Yeah, it sucks, but it's good. It's
good. Yeah. I mean it's for hybrid, so it's we're cool,
that's cool, and hybrid songs like it's really cool. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, Hybrid. It's it's a different kind of shoot. It's a third
person shooter, but instead of actually controlling where you move, you have this
thing called combat focused movement. That's our that's our buzzword for tonight. Remember
that sponsored by the letter A. No, I don't know. And the
whole point is that it's like, when we kind of worked on it,
we were kind of looking at how real soldiers work, right, and we're
saying, you know, real soldiers really don't do the whole circle straight for
the shotgun, you know, the way that we do a multiplayer and so
we're like, well, how can we kind of mimic that and uh,
you know, do that in our game in a multiplayer mode. So we
basically said, well, screw just moving with the left stick, let's just
actually just select cover and press A, just go there, right, So
that's kind of how it is. It's kind of kind of point and click
thing almost, and you basically like just flick the stick, press A and
you go there. And so while you're going there, you can actually you
know, look in any direction and still shooting stuff. That's why it's called
combat focus movement because you're focused on the combat. So a lot of people,
you know, I mean, this is the first time we've showing it
off, and a lot of people are really digging it. So they're like
at first, before they're like, really, you know, you got to
fist sale on my generic shooter. I don't. I don't get this,
you know what I mean, And and and after they're like, oh,
okay, this, this is this is innovative and different. It's very different
because you know, I mean a lot of people are like, oh,
I've seen a million shooters. Yeah exact. I mean when you would come
out and said ahead of time like yeah, we're working on this game hybrid
and it's a shooter, I think a lot of people were like, I
do I draw the guns? There's myself like, like where does they say?
We're saying it's innovator and I do, like connect, I don't you
know, I'm like no, no, no, if we can be innovative,
you can. You know. It's like why why challenge? Why not
challenge you know, the you know, the tropes that are in video games,
like and I say, well, why does why do you have to
left stick the move? Like? Why who says you have to? Just
because you've never tried it before doesn't mean it's not awesome. Right. I
played the game, and I can vouch for everything that he's saying, But
there was definitely a record scrash moment when he was demoing it of like,
wait a minute, you don't move your guy? But yeah, I mean
you sit down and play it. And it's very intuitive because you guys have
given a nice snappiness to the contents. Cool. How about you, Ben,
you've been on on the panel beat, like looking at stuff all all
day or are you in sweet seeing actual games? Yes, yes to both
of those things. All of those things are happening. So what's what's been
the standout stuff for you the past few days? Well, everything was was
pretty good. I like Hybrid a lot. I saw that, and uh,
I think the biggest standout was probably where John and I just came from.
Right before this was was Sweary's Deadly Premonition panel, Yeah, which was
just batshit crazy like you would expect, totally. I think John's got a
pretty great story for you coming up about the panel cool. I think Patrick
over there and just walked in. Was that the panel as well? Which
I didn't get the email in time, but we got an email from Tad
who's been translating for for swear around the trip. He wanted to borrow the
deer Head with the he wanted to borrow Lucadier here to have a panel does
not leave the premacy. Yeah, luc and he gets violent when you get
him out there, It gets it gets bad. It would have fitted.
It would have fitted perfectly with that panel, though with a video came post
war. He did end up taking some pictures with it and posting those,
which which was pretty cool. Brad, I was with you most of the
day. What what part of hanging out with me was the coolest? Sandwiches
was pretty good in those chairs for another like hour and a half. That
was probably the best. I can't I can't remember again, Like just like
last night, what we can talk about because everything's got some kind of bargo
on it, but we can talk about all that same stuff from Batman that
we've already seen. It's kind of Batman about podcast. Last week, Batman
continues to look good and Yeah, there's like ten seconds at the end of
it in the show that was different, and that's the part we can't talk
about until next week some time. But we shot an interview for that and
that'll be up. Uh. Played some Mortal Kombat. I continue to enjoy
playing Mortal Kombat. I know you're fucking shocked drop across. It's just yeah,
what else that's Uh, that was a full day. Yeah, so
you can see why we're exhausted. It's been rough. It's been sandwich.
It wasn't really spoiled. It was bacon on it and there was something else
on it and I said no onion relish, but then you know, then
they added LSD instead. Yeah, so you can see three giant mom stars.
Yes, Cowboy, how's your day been? Now? You gave your
talk today? Right? Yeah. I flew up to just talk shop gave
a programming talk on our animation system. Were on charted one and charted two,
So that was really cool. Uh, just got to sort of really
open about like the technology we do. We're not really secretive about any particular
approach we have, and so we were afforded these nice opportunities just to come
up and just like no, just totally how we do it? Like what
do you think? Like what do you feedback? So the best part of
my day is right after the talking, everyone comes out. They have questions
like what about this and how do you do this? And like will we
do this? And just being able to meet talk those other developers. It's
great. Do you find it? Was it a lot of developers from like
other established companies or like students looking to get in. It was like a
fifty fifty split, like an even mix of like you know, I like
I got to talk to a guy who worked at HAVOC and then I talked
to like like a student who just wanted to break in, and they you
know, both had questions. Both wanted them to know, like you know,
more detail about what. So how bad resumes did you get? At
the end of the right to be fair, I solicited resumes? We are
hiring? Okay, So like I got like all cards from everybody. It's
like feel free, Like like I said, if people want to know,
like you know, well, do you have like a job for like you
know this kind of position or like like I do this kind of program?
Do you have anything? And really what now you aall cares about it is
like, just step up to the plate if you feel you're ready for it.
If we like you, we will find a job for you. And
so that makes working at the company really cool because we really like all our
programmers, and if we like you, we'll make room. I'm really good
at smiling into a camera at eating sandwiches. Is that I that we got
a sandwich character with your name on it? Sandwich? I imagine when you
know you're you're revealing details about the process of a game like Uncharted or chart
to like, people probably come out of the woodwork are like, okay,
wait a minute. That game was a huge seller, like was reviewed really
well and was awesome. Yes, so I'm going to find out everything I
possible. I don't. I think last year we even went to some of
the postmortem talks about some of that stuff and had that kind of glazed over
like this is way too technical for many lines of code and any of your
slides or I had a LISP code in my slides, and I think that
might have scared some people off. But we gotta get to get the guys
that shouldn't be there out early on, right, you put those up front
the city The other thing is like when we start talking about like our technical
processes and our technical implementations, people find that they're not actually that complicated.
They're not they're not we're not doing anything that's special or that really crazier off
the beat were really I think sets us apart when we go to make a
game like I Charged Too. It's just the fact that we're willing to take
a technical risk and like if we think a system will be cool, we'll
go ahead and implement. So we just do more. We do more implementations.
And I don't even know what lifts code is, so don't you guys
language, But I don't know's that's incredible, very real, nicely and you
know, keep the hood. Seventy eight thousand people like life. That's what
I want to say. What's the problem? List? List? What exactly?
Thank you for saying it for Adam. What have you been doing for
the past two days other than drinking in the lobby abomself. That's kind of
what we do now. No, it's been different for me because it's the
first time in the last three years. Apparently I did find out that when
you don't work at a publisher, it's very difficult to get a talk approved.
So the talk that we submitted, I mean the talk that we did
submit, the subject wasn't Johnny the story hours. Yeah, you had me
on that. Yeah, that's gonna get christ They want to know all the
crazy stories, the backstories, and that got tonight. I don't know he
would be no takeaways. No, he was just a slide of him sweating
or shirtless. Bad thank you. No, it's been good. A lot
of meetings this time. So at Dice three weeks back, we met mostly
with publishers. We've got a couple of games in development right now that we'd
love to talk about camp right now. So this time was more talking with
the different external outsource partners and developers because we do working with a bunch of
ips. We're looking to make games, and so she can't shop with everyone.
I mean, it's been a while since I was a cap competing with
developers, so it's great to see what everyone's been doing, especially with all
the mobile and social stuff going on. So, and my voice is almost
shot. You can total they talk about this stuff, they'll they'll edit it
out. Just yeah, I mean I can just talk about it. Yeah,
that's Jeff. Jeff shadowy for day life. Why don't you explain?
The tron glove that everyone finds so intimidating was busted out last night in our
suite and it helps me consume my alcohol. The colder it is, the
better, the more power I get. And it looks really effeminate too.
It really just transports you right to the grid. Yeah, speaking of the
grid, Johnny, Oh shit, what have you been up to months?
First of all, let's do an employment check up. Yes, I'm so
funny actually asking us. It was so funny because that Dizzy people. People
were like, it's so funny, Like there's this message about how propaganda closed
down, and the comments are like, it's just John still have a job.
So yes I do, fortunately, but I imagine all the guys are
propaganda were stoked. No, those guys all my buddy. So all right,
so what have I been doing here? I came into town and my
initial intention was just to you know, hang out and see all my old
friends and everything. That sounds like and you the company's paying for you coming
now, see Adam Needly has satias, right, that's that's the problem.
So right, So Dizzy was like I went and talk to Seropia. I'm
like, hey, so GBC, what are we doing? And he's like,
I think that ship has sailed, right, Like okay, right exactly.
So I paid for my I paid for my own way out here,
and then once all these media requests are coming in, I was like,
so I'm getting medi request, you know what am I gonna do? And
they're like's expense? That's fine. So anyway, that wasn't very funny.
But as I as I move on and talk about what I've seen, I
was as you guys seen this, and I was just what your trying to?
Yeah, exactly right, a little bit of my talent dramatics to it.
The I was on the phone actually with Craig was one of our good
friends, and I'm walking around the show floor and all of a sudden,
I'm like what is this? And I'm like, Craig, I have to
call you back right down. And it's like, someone has Jerry Rice Dog
game. What have you guys seen? It's got booth, it's got both,
it's got booth and so it's Jerry Rice, but the logo for it
is like Jerry Rice and the Golden Retriever. Where is that going to a
Golden retriever in here. So that is my you know, game of the
show right there, I mean, amazing. Take the microphone away from I
saw a guy talking about dog football. Yeah, so I went to I
went to two talks today. I went to Cliff Cliffy Be's talk, which
was interesting. He was entertaining as always. And the guy who is apparently
behind Jerry Rice Football. I don't know, is that the name with the
game or is that just a description. It's a working title, Jerry Rice
Football twenty two eleven. It's gonna be huge. Uh the is he?
Uh? He got up and asked a question a Cliff. At the end
of Cliffs talk, which was his talk, was fine. He was basically
talking about owning your IP and being a power creative, which sounded a little
bit too much like power bottomed to take it over and over. I've always
wanted to be a power creative and really get the hips behind. But he
he But it was actually a really good talk, and he made a lot
of sense about a lot of things. He had, you know, his
quips and his press quotes. But then this guy came and asked him,
you know, so we've he started talking about this company that he founded,
and how he really agreed with him about owning his IP, and he went
he sort of I think he got a little nervous to start of talking,
sort of a long, forced question coming out of the mouth and hopefully question,
and then at someone he switched over to just describing his game, which
was I believe Jared Wright. It was it was no one's ever taken a
chance on doc's playing football before, believe that. And he said, you
know, no publisher wanted to give us money up front, so we raised
own money and made the game, and now publishers interested, and it was
like, actually a really nice story and a really nice question for me.
But in the middle of it just goes, no publishers wanted to take a
chance on dogs playing football, because he just goes, I can sort of
under stay in that. But the guy was super Sweeteney, and there were
a bunch of really good questions, and then we one saw Sweari's talk from
Deadly Premonition, which was the most surreal, bizarre post more I don't even
really know what was going on. He brought a coffee pot and had it
brewing coffee on the table of the conversation. And occasionally pausitive look into his
coffee like he was waiting for it to tell him what to do next.
Well, so that's from the game. Yeah, no, it was.
Yes. So the two best stories from that though, I believe, are
one he said. Uh. Someone asked the question, so, if you
had in the middle of making Deadly Premission one, if you had a million
dollars all the time, you had to add one more, one more,
two more features, what would you do? And he said without missing a
beat in one in Japanese, and then the translator said, uh, I
would have had the hero ride a bicycle, of course, and I would
have had him able to wear cologne naturally. I mean that's really all that
game needed. Yeah, and then a perfect But since he said two things,
he sort of like let it hang there, and everyone was like,
is there gonna be like or at a level? Or I would have had
key way or maybe polished. What the hell is going on. I'm more
into the idea that it would take a million dollars and time celevision, and
it's not easy to do there. With the game Skunk, that's happens it
looks like a pencil sharpener. But then there's a hole in the front that
just emits misty exactly, and there are flavor cartridges in it, then will
spit out rose scent or nobody should be interested because if somebody hacks that Pirates
makes Pirates smells, yeh, smell. I accidentally bought an unlicensed game.
It's not like it's one of the game junior game Sharpen. It might break
your nest. It's like I bought an unlicensed smell cartridge and I can't see
the Yeah, uh, the the others modern warfare. He's going to support
it, and that'll be exactly up. It's gonna totally get you. The
other sweary slide that I thought was pretty pretty amazing was that he was talking
about how he wants to make his character is good but also have a little
bit of a downside to them, and this title and so he had like
this girl is like a mother who would care for you, but also she
can't cook. That was like one of his examples. Uh, And he
of the slide was was you take the good, you take the bad?
And I immediately turned to Abby Abby who was his me, and went,
is he gonna talk about the facts of life? And then that was a
good beat. He said, it's like poisons. You know, every rose
has its thorn and every cowboy has watched the Facts of Life and that pretty
much exactly. And it was and the whole and everyone of the panels started
turning around looking at each other, was like, I did he I guess
that's he meant it. He was talking about Tooty. I mean, like
guess, and I'm guessing that his transitor might be the greatest chiefe on Earth
and swear he's just like super serious the whole time. Checker like actually like
a ben Jo you know there just double checker. He was. He was
giving sales figures right, and then translation has got completely lost. Yeah,
but everyone a big smile on their face, and that dude's a totally badass.
So it was. It was a fun, fun talk. Yeah.
Is that? I mean that seems like like a great example of game design
that can only happen in Japan. It seems like where you're you're going to
deliberately make something totally crazy and and and find a way to make it work.
What do you guys think about Japanese game development these days? You know,
as kind of people that are that are making here's a loaded question.
Quarter of miles. I think, I think we all grew up in Japanese
game but some people did PC. Right, Oh yeah, yeah, that's
true. That's true. I guess I was kind of straddling the line even
then. But it seems like, you know, if you if you look
at the popular games here in North America now, it almost seems like the
PC developers won in a sense where it's you're seeing a lot of that that
Western design is really kind of risen and and taking control, where all these
PC developers that are now making you know, games on Xbox and consoles and
stuff like that, are are the games that people want to play, whereas
Japanese design feels often a step behind, especially when when they're trying to do
shooters and things like that, where it just there, it seems like there's
usually something missing. All right, So I'm gonna argue with you real quick
and just tell you that I didn't think Vanquish was a step behind. Actually
think that that was really dope and that amazing example. Amazing You can you
can't get discounting Nintendo either, right, I Mean, they're Japanese, but
nobody they're just you know, so dominant, but at the same time it's
like they're super dominant, but in a sense they're kind of just off doing
their own things, you know, and Nintendo is always going to beat Nintendo
regardless of what country they're building games in and all that stuff. That.
Yeah, I guess I'm we're talking about. You know, it's like Feel
Plus is putting out third person shooters that are ridiculous. You're like, why
isn't you know one thing, I mean, the budgets. There's a huge
discrepancy between the budgets of Western games of Japanese games, you know, like
Triple budgets thirty million dollars twenty million dollars Japanese budgets Triple I think Vengas was
like five million or something like that. I don't call I'm not one hundred
percent sure, but I think it's around there right now. I don't know
what guys vengus. I just I think I heard that publicly, so I
can avoud it firm. I mean, working for Capcom that the internal budgets
were from Japanese internal development was in line with the US ones for Triple games.
I mean, they were in the tens of millions of dollars for sure,
but I mean, you know when they go when they I mean,
the other thing about it is the salaries of Japanese are very low. Yeah,
when especially when the independent, I think there's a lot of overhead with
the internal stuff. So I would imagine with an independent developer probably Well,
those were world those were intended to be worldwide titles, not games that were
made for Japan. And then people on the team, which is a different
thing than again, like I mean, I think that the games I end
up joining the most, they're coming from there. It seemed like the games
that were maybe more intended for Japanese audience and brought over because it really captures
a very different feel and a very different flavor, whereas when you know,
if it's trying to kind of mimic games that are that are big here already.
Yeah, I want Japan to be Japan. I want jaman to be
fucking crazy. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I want that to be a
thing that can be huge like it was, and I want their industry to
be able to support that. Because I've read interviews where like the the the
sort of culture of you pick a company, you work there for life in
Japan, it's sort of bogging down the whole process. There's this great interview
with a development guy at Capcom who was complaining about this, I got all
these great ideas, but you're punished for taking risks. Right that said,
well, that's a guy I want to make a game with. I want
to see like what kind of crazy stuff he's got, and I would love
to like just make a game with him, and and and to that point,
actually just found out the one big Japanese publisher. They basically because they're
worried about people leaving, especially now, because the West and the East are
very different when it comes to you know, over here, we stayed with
companies for two to five years and then we move on. Right is Japan,
Right, it's a lifetime thing. So it's so paranoid about people leaving
that they force everyone in Japan to change your email address every six months.
They do an out automated system where they give them a new email address so
they can be plucked from the which my I mean, Western philosophy just says,
why don't you just make the working, you know, make it better
to work there, make the it wos no one's attached, But what about
level five. I mean they're they're great to do it, and they've made
it over to the West pretty well with LA still retain their identity identifiable.
Yeah, when we try the West, when we try to emulate the Japanese,
we just always get it off, kind of like when they try to
emulate Western development, they get it a bit off. And you want that
there, I mean it's a culture thing, yeah, and you you want
that that ofteness feels genuine and from working cap On for three years and meeting
Infusan and Takuchis on those guys, I mean you just feel that they're sometimes
they don't care. They want to be a reb and they want to make
their own things and it just feels comfortable in a weird way. That's comfort.
It's like a je computation that just makes your species better as a whole.
Right, So, do you guys feel that there are ways to bridge
that gap? You know, by having developers overseas working with and immutations and
yeah, like like actually getting kind of a best of both worlds or are
they completely incompatible. I mean, again, back from my experience of Capcom,
I think there's certain developers out there that get the Japanese sort of tendencies.
I think Bluecastle did a great job with that RUS two. I played
through that. I'm like, this feels like our guys in Capcom Japan made
it. Yeah, it really did. It was kind of like Broken in
the same Canada and except for the access to food right up on the roof.
But I think other teams though that don't get it. I think that's
when you have a big clash and it just can't work. So we actually
worked with Konami doing Scribble Nuts over in Japan, so that did really well
and a lot of Japanese people really loved it. For me too, gave
us thirty eight out of forty ors. I'm like, yeah, a lot
of people really were and said snake made it into the right old snake and
a bunch of stuff. That's pretty all. That was pol Actually that was
And the producer actually was why am I blanking the Castlevania guy like you got
you got? And he was the product so he was like, dude,
I love in the West, like I want to get this game over in
Japan. So and he was a producer on the title it was, so
then does that mean it has like better like hat and whip technology the hat.
I mean that was the most important part. He was like, gotta
get that right, gotta get how is that? How is the localization process
of a game? Like I didn't work on that side. It was just
like can you enter these characters? Absolutely both Actually was as an English teaching
tool that was like a big thing with one bill words that would actually make
a lot of sense though, I mean, yeah, no, totally.
It's like it's sweets, yeah, ghosts. You know, so what everyone
doesn't understand, that's that's watching right now. Said, we had been you
know, here since about six o'clock and then we told multiple stories and now
here we are and everyone's been prefaced with all the retarded stories that we've done
prior to retarded Yeah I did. Oh anyway, anyway makes a lot of
sense. Well, no jokes Seattle, all right, guys, no jokes
about me. I'm from Seattle. That's why let's where you would now,
Jeremiah know, your time here as short. You've got to get back out
onto the scene. But thanks for having me. Yeahs leaving right now?
Are you? I can we can we not talk a little bit about your
games and everything that you've done. But what's what's it like working on a
downloadiple game was supposed to handheld game? Is It's interesting. A lot of
people assume that hybrid is harder to make than scriptnots, but it's exactly the
opposite because script n we had no idea what we're doing right, where it's
like, well, let's look at other games and see how they did it.
We did it that way right with a shooter, right, Like,
there's so many you know, kind of benchmarks you can go after, right,
and the camera and the field of shooting and stuff. So there's a
lot more that we could do. So even though it's three D and bigger
budget and all that stuff, it's way easier compared to SCRIPTA. A lot
of people don't think that cool awesome. Well I guess, well you go,
I would say I really enjoyed your talking dice. Yes, oh thanks,
I thought I thought it was really useful. I mean even just you
know, it's like we're a you know, not making games. We're riding
by the but you know, it's like a small company that's like looking to
grow and continue to grow, and that's sort of stuff. It's like some
of that stuff applying. Yeah, well we knew that, Like, you
know, a lot of publishers go to dice and stuff. So the kind
of the big message was just like, hey, make great games, don't
worry about the other stuff, right, Like a lot of publishers like,
I need the power points and I need this beau the beautiful design docs,
and that's cool and all. But you know, if you do that,
do that on the publishers side, right, don't don't like bog down the
developer with that kind of stuff, because you know, the consumer doesn't see
your schedule, the consumer doesn't see your power points, the consumer doesn't see
your beautiful design docs. I mean, yes, the design docs have to
be written well, right, I mean you have to convey your idea,
but you don't need to like have an artist work on it, right,
you know what I mean. So it's like that's really really important, and
so some publishers kind of put a little more emphasis than they should on that.
So that was part of our talk, was like, hey, you
know, make sure that you know, make it getting good, because that's
all that matters, right, that's really all the better. You goos don't
matter, you know, nothing like us, It doesn't matter because they're not
playing us. They're playing what we made. That's all that matters at the
end of the day. See what's so funny is that all the means that
we've had, it's been like, you know, all promised circumstances, and
I've been like, you know, I just actually want to play a game,
right, no trailer, don't even like don't control exactly, Like don't
even want Yeah, And and I think that like especially at just like the
funniest thing in the entire world is when you're showing it to people. It's
like the people that grab on the controller are the ones that like you're actually
talking to and connecting to because those are those are gamers, right, And
so I think that's really really important, you know, from a publishing perspective,
like when developers come in, you have to play the game just because
that's if you're not a gamer, then why are you in this industry?
And it seems like that's that's a dying greed. Sometimes seems like there's a
lot of it is a lot of damn suits because there's so much money,
right, I mean that's a big thing. Yeah, No, I do
that because that's that's Johnny B. But like I don't think how the programmer
look at it. It's like some Joseph of Bood. I mean, right,
sport jacket brands. I'll say combine, thanks again for we'll let you
get night and Dave Lange the camera give him away now a little fact.
Jeremiah has got the best sneaker collection in the gaming industry. I want to
see him and suit A fifty one go up again. So we've got another
program was wrong, it's a good man. I just want to go.
You want for all the edit points for later on when you're trying to chop
this down? What do you get chopped down? Statuta? If I cut
it down, people end up cut all good stuff. This is life,
Dave Lang Iron Galaxy Studios for now, that's a that's a company that people
might not be familiar with. You know, you're not necessarily at their peril,
sir, Yeah, what what's you tell us? What is Iron Galaxy
all about? So we split off a midway before the whole Warnbler swoop didn't
kind of saved the day there, group of us kind of broke out started
doing just like technical outsourcing stuff, basically like you know this project the business
guy's getting room and they're like, oh, this game it's in trouble hastor
ship Q three. Uh so that's when they hire us and we kind of
go in there and do our thing. Thank you very thank you, sir.
What we've worked on some hot bangers and it into that Jeff, let
me tell the story, let me tell them so. Uh then we've slowly
been transitioning into full game development. We have like really good relationships with some
people we work with and plan it's X blaps and stuff. We recently just
shipped you don't know Jack with Jelly Vision and THHQ. We wrote all the
jokes, we did all the fun stuff and no the Jelly Vish guys were
in there banging and keyboards making programming happen, and we wrote all it's a
little known fact about the game. And Mike Builder, your name's Mike Bill.
Is that your pseudonym? Pseudonym pseudonym fifty? What what I'll do this
all day? What do you fun? But yeah, so we just that
basically just tried to get at their way, let them be funny, you
know, gave them the platform to do that, and we've got a bunch
of really cool stuff that once again we can't talk about yet, but it'll
all be out this year, so it'll be really cool later this year.
From what you've demonstrated so far, I don't know why you wanted to get
out of their way to let them be funny. Isn't it taking You might
want to change the angle of your seat. They're seen your profile. It's
not that becoming. We profile off right now. So now I'm gonna say
to stay there just to spite me. Eat. Now, what are you
doing your GDC other than your chest drink? Alright? So yeah, so
it's basically like business drunk. I'm like, let me start you kind of
wake up and just vot the Tonics all day long. So we redesigned the
Heisman Trophy last night. It's me giving stiff around to a high indie developer
with the five to Tonic in my hand, like this hand help? Like,
are you developer? Was like putting a boot to his head? Layer
at it or something? You know clearly, Jeff, you don't know theyhing
about the Hisman trophy. You have to raise one foot that the figured who
boot is going to his skull? So why are you smashing developers? Are
you saying you hate into developers. No, I am an indie developer,
so you gotta hate all the other into developers so you can have indian The
only way to stop on the only way it will succeed is by keeping others
down. That's actually yeah, it actually doesn't have internet in the office.
He doesn't want anyone on, no job searches, nothing like that. What's
up, bunny, I'm drinking it up on So other than being business drug,
have you got to any talks? It's basically that a lot of pitch
meetings, stuffy hoping. Yeah, it's basically just meeting, meeting, meeting.
The couple of guys are here and they said they saw some really cool
stuff. I think they liked the remedy talk today. But that's one.
Oh yo, that's I'll tell you about everybody. Sorry, I'm like,
I'm freaking out, Steven Great. Has anyone have you heard about this vers
No? What is it? This game? No? The twelve right where
these guys got up and we're like, where's my credit? Where starting questions?
Definitely heard about versus y, Yeah, like the publishing versus developments just
the sky right, I'm not I'm not going to actually be the no hell
no, because it'll get quoted. I'm not gonna be the guy that like
retells that story, but you could actually go and read ahead and read that
what's what is that story to say? That story has to say? It
was that the guy, like you said, the physics engine guy basically got
up during the QA and asked what physics engine they used, and he said,
oh, well this one. He's like, so you're gonna give them
credit, and there's just an awkward moment of silence, and then the dudes
from Rovio We're like, we'll talk after this is over. Well on the
CEO of that physical right right, Yeah, he definitely called himself out forgot
that. Sorry, I'm sorry that No, no, no, that's it.
That's the end of the Story's old thirty million on Android or something like
that. Like I'm not it was like ad supported on ant or something,
but they have thirty million downloads. That okay, but that's probably the most
thing. Yeah, I don't know, truths, I am Android. Crediting
in games actually seems like it is. It is uh kind of crazy.
It's weird people that people leave companies and then they don't end up getting credits
and as more and more games get outsourced. Uh do you want to speak
about that, Adam, Well, I mean we have a big we haven't
talk often about at what point at the project if you you he's an okay
to take you out of the credits. Yeah, well so the day Dave
Lang would love if the credits roll was blank for everyone, he's very much
So that's absolutely not true. But you don't like when people stuff that drives
me double credit Like a year before the game is shipping, people are like,
oh, so what's my title gonna be? That drives me absolutely bonkers,
Like just do your work, we'll roll the names, you'll be in
there and a story. Right that's credits are simple, should be the simplest
thing in the freaking game. So yeah, it drives me bonkers. But
actually a lot of times, like even if developers want to leave people in
like legal publisher legal, like no, you've got to yank come out right,
like they might have claim against us, fraudulent or not. And so
a lot of times people get a bad rap for that. But sometimes it's
just like, you know, this game is not coming out unless these people
are removed. So okay, was still in the credits for our games.
A while after he came back here, he was in Rockman three, but
yeah, I don't think he was in because yeah, it was gone.
And I think that we did somewhere like two thirds of the dev cycle or
like that he had someone in the studio had like substantive work on part of
the project that like basically made it possible to ship. Not like they were
in a meeting where someone was like, we should totally have that character.
I have red hair. It's like, yeah, red hair and the dancing,
right. I got it that he's game creating centrally. Yes, it's
fair because like you don't want to get sort of been on shoot about it.
But like when BCR two came out and I'm like, oh, our
old guys that were there when we signed it and worked halfway on and aren't
in the credits. And I was like and like, but you don't want
to get too worked out because so many of approvals I know actually met create
system credits. What's up? No one's react No, no, I mean
it's a nice pride point, it's right, but you can't it doesn't matter
if it's because I still saw my rest or whatever. It's like it'sn't matter.
Yeah, but there's just that weird, you know, internal thing that
you're like, ah yeah, because I mean they had the whole entire Grin
staff when Grin went under, they had them all in the credit whatever your
life working on something? Yeah yeah, how about were Naughty Dog is there?
Uh? Well, depending on how far into the project you leave,
you might get very special thanks or maybe just special thanks, different special babies,
special game babies. Right, yeah, so how far? Like what
what is the rule? Uh, it's all by seniority, and we sort
of group by discipline, sort sciplined by alphabet, I believe, and then
inside eachipsmen it's like programmers. It's just all by like when you re hired
on and that's it. But no joke. Every every game that we are
finishing, it becomes like every time like we are not going to have a
credits fight about like Howard in the credits and who is in like what category
and that. Every year it's like another round of will make my departments and
people who didn't work on this game will work on the other game won't be
in the credits, And it's like a huge discussion like as there's more and
more outsourcing and you know just like different localization teams and something. You know,
some credit scrolls. I mean five hundred people go watch a Sassin's Creed
two credits. Yeah, even the rock Beatles credits, it goes on forever.
Well, the Blackouts credits they were like three songs. Yeah, like
the Modern Warfare two credits where it gets to the publisher side credits and the
scroll speeds up. Like it's like, I will say one of the next
things about Naughty Dog is because we are so flat, Uh, it'll just
be like lead programmer and programmers. There's not like the lead you I assistant
programmer then like an adjunct programmer to the main networking. It was a really
hard thing for us trying to build this database and and give proper credits to
people, and it sounds like there's just no proper crediting guidelines for the industry
out there. It's also you know when when like who's in charge is it
the producer? Is it like the programmer, and when that one person is
like giving like you're in charge of credits. Also, there's this whole like
I have to make sure every person that's ever touched this game ever gets in
there and feels like a right because they're gonna have that same feeling when they
watch it. That's my act. I really respects working out great for them,
Yeah exactly. I respect them for doing that right because it's like,
all right, open call. How many of you guys actually touched this games?
And I wanted to be like, yeah, I did, I did
the haircut on the chest, I decided impression on them. I thought it
was interesting that there's like a check boxes on the website about you know,
like what division of this game did you maybe work on? And there was
one for press, and it was like, you know, were you submitted
your own significant like, and I was like, well, I just talked
about that game once. I didn't actually submit my own you did? No,
No, it's it's actually I actually the only game I've ever been credited
in is a guitar here too, And what my name is misspelled? It's
like a thank suarts. Johnny still calls you that. I don't mean he's
just doing a Jeff Keely impression. Jam, did you know that I'm not
tron Iron Galaxy is credited as mo Cap Talent shut Out of this series were
credited is capt talent and trona, well you were in the suit for a
while. I'm not gonna we word. Yeah, but no, so thanks
for that good look up. Are you serious? Yes, I ain't even
fucking around right now. You look at story joining No, I tell you
want to tell a story, Okay, tell story about the threesome story.
Yeah. I don't trom threesome story all right, so I'll tell it real
quick, real quick. It is, so I go back to Shytown.
I'm hanging out having a great time, and uh, I'm hanging out with
the Hiring Galaxy dudes. And my fiance rolls up with one of her good
friends and she sees me, and I'm like, gomed right, and she's
like, we gotta get you out of here, right, this is all
being told to me like later on, right, And so then I get
in a cab we go and then apparently went to seven to eleven. And
then at the seven to eleven it was like there's some booze there, and
then the guy's like always stop selling booze at two o'clock and it was two
fifteen, and then my fiance was like, oh, he's gonna have a
three sum tonight. It's me and this other chick, right, it was
there, So we're all excited. And then only if you buy, only
if you sell the booth, right, and so the guys like yeah,
Greg Goose like puts it down. Adrian throws down like a pack of magnums.
And then we so we go back to friends and see why now,
why you were hesitant to so that I can't believe It'll tell you sirt right
now. So then we get back to the girls place and this girl's like
best friends with Adrian whatever. Right, So they go outside and they're like
doaneah. Doorman's like hey, like he like tries to stop me, and
I'm like and he's goes like he's gonna have a three some tonight, and
I'm like yeah, in the doormans like all right, buddy, go upstairs,
right, So I go upstairs. The girls go outside in the balcony
to have a cigarette, and there's like one of those big like leather like
real big, you know, like the double leather the like a high chair
like you're a babe high chair chair, right, and then deep coaches.
Yeah it so it's so funny. So I got all excited, right,
and I sat down in the chair and then no, yeah, I did
disrupt and then I was just in my amies and the girls are outside smoking,
and so then I was like, oh shit, like he was missing
from this right now. So music, So I pulled out I on my
fucking phone, which is like this little piece of shit, right, and
I went to YouTube and I was like, John, like to see end
of line club theme? And I hit it right and it it's like dinner
n Then like I put it down and I sat here right all same,
and the girls walked in and like, the fuck is wrong? Like you
didn't think you're really gonna have a three some day, do you? I
mean, I was like ah, and they sat up for two and half
minutes and left in my face. Why why that sounds highly erotic? Yeah,
it was because I think I think deeply passionate soul social music track.
Yes, definitely. So Tron is weighing heavy on your brain then since the
release of all this all the time, Yeah, Tron's Tron is awesome.
Yeah. Do you guys see the Tron Jeremy thing? Yes, I actually
did see that. Yeah, it's like you and me right, it's like
mister hands. Tron Jeremy like shit, yeah, yeah, right, definitely
anyway that story, here's my wagon and mister hands we all end up dead.
All right with that, We're gonna take a quick breath. We'll be
back in a little bit. But you know there's a bar behind this camera.
We got to visit it for a little while, so, uh,
stay tuned. We'll be back. Yeah, we are back. Man is
getting a little reckless reckless here, thanks Jesus Christ. So I thought,
you know, I was looking around the room and I realized, like all
you guys are from or worked in Chicago, which you know, you don't
necessarily hear a ton about as a as a big game development mecca these days.
But I know you you three Johnny, Adam, Dave, y'all had
the time midway and you drink. I'm good you just you guys. I
think the three of us, especially Sank, I think the three of us
three are the reason someone said that on the comments made me so set.
No. Yeah, I called you about this, like, did Johnny does
not do well with ready? Did you grow freaky Flyer and sport volets?
What are your guys? What are your guys? Is like? Yeah,
everything that like Vinyaki judges like it's a complete disaster, a bankruptcy and ship
someone connected the docks, and so I'm like I'm reading this and it's like,
like, dude, was it Midway Midway crash guy with the boaster that
crash, And it's like, I'm like, now I'm at the largest entertainment
company in the world. Just you just needing a new challenge, man,
know everything? This was too easy, even on right that tur mode.
So I was mortified. I would to Chicago for the first time, I
think in nineteen ninety one, and it was for CS I was six.
Yeah, they went up two c Yes, this year when I was like
seventeen, I mean you want you started going to trade shows, we were
like sixteen or sixty fourteen. Yeah, I just turned eighteen. So yeah,
it was the same time. Deal. I was too bad. I
was trying to meet dudes in the game industry, trying to Yes, that
came out exactly right, exactly. You look at Jeffer, he met a
lot of dude, this is this second is this is going to be in
position. Chicago past is going just the way it should. Yeah, And
I remember going to the Battle Tech Center. Yea so good. Yeah,
yeah, and uh, you know, and then they eventually added Red Planet
and suck the whole thing up. But like location based entertainment, how many
you guys working on can't flick that? That's the real stus good world topic
starter. You guys all into that, and you're gonna start it's good at
we all and don't respond, right, just quiet, totally disting for the
audio versus called Disney World. Never heard of it. I thought it was
called Freesome World in your world God, and I'm so upset about that.
Ahead so exciting ratings. So the Chicago game industry, I mean obviously you
know, another realm was still there, kind of as like the one of
the last you know, remnists of Midway. I guess I would I would
call it. I was this. I was talking to somebody from another on
last night. They said They're like, I'm like, I have no idea
how big there. It's there, one fifty star, so many people still
there, it's crazy awesome. They just kind of working on MK, right,
I don't who be Yeah that's true. Yeah, I mean we we
know they have an MGP dep kid, so that probably we don't all that
official. Nobody any board Watts watching the kid that making sure makes touches it.
So we're talking about it now that you guys have you know, kind
of seen except Dave, who is still reving Chicago. But now you guys,
have I seen the world as it were? Uh? I brought Dave
fire for the first time. It was like watching the small Child discover the
Earth. It's like, yeah, it's a place you've only ever seen on
TV. It's like it's magic land. It doesn't it might as well been
like the fucking Grin. To me, it's like, you go this place,
like this really exists. Holy shit. Weird Exit they have acts Weird's
tagline when Patrick gets the city that was taken down by fire, so wherever
Dave was, The first thing he does is looks for the fire exits,
making sure everything is safe. Speaking strange tongues, what's different about Chicago in
terms of like it's development scene and stuff compared to them? You know,
you're in LA and obviously you're out here now. Uh, Is there some
then unique about Chica? Why do the people in Chicago stay in Chicago?
It doesn't seem like there are a ton of developers out there. It's just
heavy, you know, like low cost of living, and that's not something
I first understand either because like, uh, you know, born and raised
there or whatever. I got my first job out in Salt Lake, did
a bunch of stuff out there, and came back stake. Yeah, were
you in Iguana? I was in Sculpture. They turned into Iguana then yeah.
Then Microsoft out there, well was the Access guys who became Microsoft.
H the indie build then they turned into indie Billy there form three. No,
I was there, so I was in and am two and links for
the first one for Xbox drops and uh, they're so busy then yeah,
anyway, there really been making mad Cat. It's so awesome money. You've
seen the robot arm, You've seen it. It's fa anyway. But yeah,
it's what is it about Chicago that attracts that number of game developers?
Like I know obviously that wait, Drake is gonna speak. So the thing
about Chicago, and the thing about the Midwest in general, is that,
like many sitcoms on CBS, there are hot women willie to bed large pasty
men. You want to make fun of me right now? I got the
John was the commentary that you know, really got you upset. I've just
been following your career trying to stop the little Ton man. Aside from Patrick
on his panel, Yeah, I know where you're coming with, take it
down. But it's uh, it's I mean, it's it's a nice place
to live. It's a well planned city. You got good colored trace Chicago,
well planned city. Hey, I live I live in Boston and it
snows like a foot and it all traffic just stops because the roads sucking curve
and I'll get into terrible playing the wind west of the Midwest. You know,
everything was great Buck Boston. Fuh god, I did not see anything
from here popping out. No, I just mean as a poorly plant city,
try to playing Buck Boston fight or something. I don't know it,
Frinch, and I think it's I think you know it. Say Actually,
it seems true about Vancouver is that people don't like to leave, like when
the family in layers and families, they don't want to leave, right And
Canadians just are allergic to America usually. So I took a lot of injections
before it came down here. That explains a lot. See, yeah,
for for our side of things, you know, I mean, obviously you
know, you you got gaming former out in Minnesota. There's some stuff down
in LA and you have kind of like bloggers kind of spread out in whatever
weird parts of the world that they can uh work on a blogger salary,
but the bulk of it is here in San Francisco, you know, So
it's always interesting to me to see. It's just like, you know,
there are different scenes of you know, it's like the Austin scene and like
Vancouver and stuff like that. So you know, just like what was it
like what was Midway like? I mean, you guys were there as they
were transitioning like out of arcades into the home market, right, that used
to be like a crazy time. I think. Me being from small town
Canada, I'm moving to Chicago as my first like I'd lived in Ireland for
a bit, but moving to Chicago working for Midway. I'd worked at EA
before, so it was used to very corporate, sort of regimented thing.
And I remember it was week number two and we were having a company wide
conference call. And what happened was we're all dialing out of the time,
and they screwed up the dial in so everyone so everyone could hear everyone else
so there's like and be like, oh I canna hear how I can hear
it? And all of a sudden, I hear this accent. Hello,
this is Neil. I own your fucking dreams. And I'm like and me
just like I'm literally pooping my pants and like somebody sucking fire, I should
leave? Right? Was what what is this a about? And so they
finally figured out like everyone's joining and leaving the like leaving the conference call.
Afterwards, I'm like, what was that when you're fucking dreams? And like
that's pretty good story at him. Three years ago, Neil the Castro was
the old CEO of the time. It's holding a company meeting. Now.
Apparently a lot of people had wanted to ask questions at the company meetings,
but he was never really comfortable addressing the whole the whole company. So finally
said, okay, hr get it. I'll answer questions. This one guy,
you know, he's okay. So he's in the meeting and he always
used to hold this car, used to smoke it before they meet them.
For that was not good. No, I mean I didn't work there with
him, so it was all added to he got Johnny could probably gout more.
But so he's so he's got his cigar in his mouth. He's like,
okay, so apparently we want to answer some questions. So anyone got
a question that the like cheapest artist guy in the back, like, I
have a question the Actually it was the cat that claimed he invented the week.
Oh, they better hold up his hand, and he was like,
okay, what's your questions? Like, so, you know in our contract
says that you know, you guys own the IP that we create, but
you know, I've been working on singing at home and with my friends,
but not in the office, just at home. And he starts explaining that
he's been creating this thing question like this eight minutes into it, and Neil's
just pasting like Neil's just some canoe dude. He's just like a side ship,
like put people in the drink, you know, that's what So finally,
finally, right, So these guys, so, so would you is
that something that I would have to get a clear unsapproval from my manager to
own that or what? And he's like, you know what, we own
your fucking dreams. Meetings adjourn and he fucking walks out of the room.
I thought I thought maybe he'd threw his cigar. At that point. He
was sho never waits, So I mean for me to hear these stories,
being from a small time can, I was like, I think I'm in
the wrong town. I need to go. But the food is really good,
because that was the one thing you always hurt like when you weren't in
Midway, always hurt ude. They're run by the mob. They're run by
the mob or whatever. That's what we always And then Captain salt Lake shows
up. He's like, they're run by the mob. Dude, I remember
my first week. This is crazy. So there's this weird SNS Delhi is
like right around the corner, right and I'm sitting there like I don't know
anybody. No one wants to go to lunch, but I'm the new guy.
Everyone's like, fucking you guys, whatever. That lanky motherfucker I was
lanky then not fat. We'll get there. You'll get there. And so
when I go to the IY, just walk in this SENS Delhi and I'm
like, yeah, I just give me a sandwich or whatever. And he's
like, you guys. The guy's like, do you work at Midway?
And I'm like Yeah, he's like nice family organization. And I'm like,
oh my god, it's I'm starting to freak out ship and he's like,
yeah, my kids love some of those games they make. I'm okay then
till you die in Yeah. So it was where you always heard those rumors
and then when you get there nothing like I never that in our time anyway.
Yeah. I mean the thing that we would always hear is that a
claim it was the company that was run by the Mob, and that that
was always you guys hear anything about well, I mean, Johnny was there
during the Mob bears en midway. One is a made man and the other
the other thing. I you know, remember hearing about the other days you
bring up Neil to Castro like that was the name. Remember fat Babies?
Yeah yeah, hell side help us we want to ever ask for a read?
It was becoming no Neil g Yeah. But you would see Neil the
Castro's name on there like every other day, just with some horrific story.
And I never I'd never met him. I didn't. I would never have
thought of him as being like cigars smoking that kind of crazy. He seemed
like fucking out of his mind from all these stories it would appear. It's
like, okay, it was the game clearly run by fucking craze. It
wasn't the mob. It's the fucking criminally insane, like who would run a
company this way? And reading that stuff and obviously it's two sides everything,
but that that's the beauty of fat What was with the concept of Neil came
up with would sell Moon's units? Was that which ny I don't know,
I don't remember. It's the rest sponse everyone's hoping for us so about Catholic
school girls on a bus with a gun. Yeah, I remember, Actually
Neil, Neil was a good guy. No, Neil was a good guy.
It seemed like it just kind of maybe guts sidetracked more and more in
the years after that. I mean, what, what was what were the
first games that you worked on at Midway twenty you guys when you were shipping
back are you were there earlier than any of us. You were there for
like eight nine years. Yeah, we're working on Blitz. We were working
on yeah two thousand two talking I'm sorry, uh, Blitz twenty o two
and Red Card Soccer and we had a lot of things going on at that
point. But what was crazy is that there was a division between Arcade and
Home Council developm Right, And what's funny And I look back at it now
and I think that, you know, if if Midway hadn't made a forty
million dollar investment in this is vase, and if we had actually held on
to everything, right, what's funny is that all the old school guys were
brilliant about taking fifty cents for two minutes, right, Yeah, And so
now we look back and we laugh at how crazy everything was. Right,
But if iOS and everything was happening with iPhone right now and all those old
school Midway guys are still there, Midway would be killing it. I mean,
I mean that I actually saw talking with somebody said the original micro transaction
once twenty five cents was a quarter, and those guys master. And actually
one of the biggest things I learned from Mark and Ed and Brian and all
those guys was how to draw on the small compulsion loop of drawing that next
quarter, like it has to be great and compelling, but you have to
want to continue at the end of that. And that was definitely one of
the when Mark Serni talked it at Dice was one of the things that he
kind of drew out of that talk, kind of talking about, you know,
just the whole legacy of games starting back at arcades. You know you
work on Morrible Madness and all that stuff back in the day. Was that
exact thing. I'm just like, like, look at today's look at the
Facebook games where the micro transactions fit, Like look at the iPhone games and
my Android games and kind of how those work that. Yeah, it really
is this return to to arcade days. Yeah, it blows my mind again,
Like if maybe was still around, I mean, there would be the
most crazy apps out there and just like legendary. Right. It's like that's
the weirdest thing about like working there. As you start off and it's like,
oh, I'm a lead programmer on slugfestor blitz Er whatever. Oh,
Mark Turmeil has got some feedback for you. It's like Mark fucking Turmel right,
doing is right? Just incredible game. It's an incredible game. It's
incredible game. It's like, what I guess I'll just say yes and thank
you. It's like, what are you gonna do? It's like I'm like,
I'm really gonna say anything to saund or those guys, they're just like
they invented that stuff and so you just gotta listen. It made for some
awkward times though, because like you know, she like progressives. Like eventually
I was the studio TV there and ostensibly like in charge of like all the
projects, technical direction on all the projects. But like the MK guys have
been making that game since like before I was in the industry, Like what
am I really going to tell them about making them k just like just get
the get out of their way, let them do their thing. So it
made stuff like that ats like you know, like at something they wouldn't listen,
like, and those guys were super good about all that stuff. It's
just made the titles weird at that company because like these guys have been there
forever. Everyone knows you're not going to tell them boom because they've earned it,
right, Yeah, And it just made stuff like that really weird,
but just so much you could learn and yeah, really smart dudes. I
remember rolling into George Gomanz's office once and we had office rip show and I'm
like, George, I got a question for you. So the original Spy
Enter when you guys outsourced the motorcycle models to China. How many people did
that take? And what was the rough cause he just loved the whole outsourcing
things like back in my day with four guys in a weekend, you know,
and to work walk, you know, work with all those guys.
It was, it was, it was humbling, it was I mean,
Johnny spend the most time with all those old guys that that did the fantastic
job. And it's great interact with him in joke bustuff because they just thought
the new stuff. They're like crazy one hundred and twenty person teams back in
my day six guys. But that's that's what's so charming about all of the
like iOS, development, Android, all that kind of stuff. Right,
it's back because it's still same cats. Right, so if you could imagine
like they're not even being you know these platforms, right, I mean,
these are the guys that like are pioneering everything, and so it's it's so
super cool. I mean I remember gigging out all the time with George like,
so is there a helicopter? And s my hunts we made it up,
like is there is there a twelfth key terminil to get into the pleasure
though He's like, no, actually we put that in. Then we never
put the key actually in the game, so people keep putting more money in,
you know, like you know, like that kind of stuff was hot
Scoops, Hot Scoops. You just blew my fucking mind. Right, there's
going to take that to the grave. It wasn't even like that. I
mean, but like those were like the pioneers of our industry, you know,
for for you know, the most part. And it's like, you
know, and Eugene Jarvis, Robotromp, right, I mean talk about brilliant
and addictive at the same time, right, I mean, just and that
spawn Smash TV and like I just actually, you know, uh, admittedly
and stupidly finished Black Ops. Right. I'm like months and months and months
late, which is why it's stupid. But I did Dead Ops, right,
and I'm like, damn, this is like Smash TV. This is
dope as fuck. Right, And then I was talking to people at Disney
about it and they're like, oh, Dead Ops is so cool. I'm
like, it's just like Smash TV. And they're like, what Smash TV.
And I'm like, it's zombies. Like it's like people, it's people,
don't you know, like you have to know your history in order to
innovate, you know, moving forward. So I mean, you know that's
look back at you know, my time, like my misspent youth in r
K. Well I misspent maybe maybe not considering how it all ended up for
me, but spend all that time in arcades like you know, Midway and
Atari, who you know like would later go on to kind of fall under
the Midway umbrella. Like those were the guys that were were making the games
that mattered to me growing up. So it was always really interesting to like
kind of follow the Midway name through the years and and even even as it
started to go really even as Freaky Flyers was coming out and they were like,
well we're gonna remake Defender, and I said, well good luck with
that. Uh you know, you kind of stood by and watched it all
unfold, like hoping like, oh, these these guys are totally inna turn
around because it's a fucking Midway. They own all these great names. It's
like in and you with especially with all the uh, all the Mopeda stuff,
like all the all the Atari stuff come falling under that umbrella. At
one point, a Midway owned the rights to RBI Baseball that's true. So
yeah, exactly. So I recently fell down this horrible hole when I so
I realized that Namco was putting out a baseball game on the three DS,
and it's you know, they've been continuing that series that was getting translated over
here as RBI Baseball for years and years and years, and I was like,
man, someone needs to just localize this game. Put it out as
RBI Baseball. And then I just fell into this like horrible research hole of
like it's RBI Baseball xpla game that was announced by some company that's not even
made games two years. I think. Actually, I think what's most exciting
is that there was a little bit of I think you actually broke a story
Jeff about Blitz. Yeah. Yeah, so it sounds it sounds like that.
I mean obviously he has picked up the rights of that stuff with JAM
coming back, and yeah, it sounds it sounds like that they are working
on them. Yeah, I mean so quietly. All I had heard was
that like they went in and got all the sports licenses out of Midway when
it was in bankruptcy, right and and so yeah, like JAM, I
think was great and it's it's great to see Jam being translated all these different
platforms, and Blitz would be awesome too. I mean it's really exciting that
like Termelo is over there and to like shepherd these projects can and and really
do that stuff like that's it's heartwarming in a way, you know, it's
I mean, it's like I think it's more heartwarming now that Jams came out.
It was really good. Yeah, because when we first heard this,
we're all like, oh, the table and being next, I'm like to
destroy everything. Jamin kind of get it. That's awesome, and Mark's there
sort of. It was definitely one of those things. We're talking to Trey
Smith, who who was I guess the producer, yeah, JAM, Like,
as soon as I started talking to him, he very clearly got it.
And you there's something about games like NBA. I mean, we have
a fucking NBA jam sheet here exactly right that as soon as you are talking
to someone who gets who gets that, like you can tell them medialy He's
like, you should actually come see that. You like started to like okay
at lea show you actually the stuff that is really cool about this game.
As Mosis people are just walking up and we're like, yeah, I remember
actually he donally the game for me and I was such a huge NBA JAM
fan, and I actually he demoted the game for me, and I was
like sweet. And there was always a moment when someone was coming down for
a dunk where you could push them, and so I actually tested it to
see if it was still in there, and it was yeah. And I
was like, you know, I am like probably the most hardcore you can
get with JAM and with Showtime at hang Time and all those games, and
I'm like, that's still in there. And he's like, you know,
we still have a nod for all the even like old school hardcore fans of
it. And so that like made me feel really great because they were honoring,
you know, the guys that I looked at to as mentors. Yeah,
it's I think one of the favorite things like those games. One of
the things that's such some part is like the attention to the tiniest details and
what those those one can care in the crafts and ship like we got put
in Like I remember I was helping in between it must have been Let's one
and Let's two. I was helping balls two out and they put that two
on two mode in their full court and termel. He's like talking, He's
like the care this to be like Showtime. I'm like, okay, cool
whatever, and I cod it up when I do the thing, and he's
like this is no, this is not even Next day when I get the
office, there's a fucking Showtime cabinet in my office and he comes over.
He was just like you look at it here and you game yeah, playing
game, Yeah, come see me on my couch. Yeah. It was
just stuff like that was crazy, Like you want to big like Showtime and
here's the cabinet, right, sounds crazy, Well, the sorted said for
when you're making these games now next next gen sort of reports of old games
and sort of want to polish all the not glitches because they weren't glitches.
They were sort of like what made the game, like the Nixon dents that
made it like a big yeah waiting big game and not like not like a
super revival experience. And it's I think there's high really strong desire for people
who maybe didn't grow up with that game. When you're look at human and
to be like, well, if you can't really shove a dude, he's
about to dunk on your face. If you did that in real life,
Like you get a knee and the a knee and the nose and you'd be
dead. Yeah, it's like well no, but like you could do it.
You'll gains if it's not even you're the anyone who was buying this part
of styles purposes and we're like, well, fuck these guys they rooted to
be at gym. I don't want to play this game. So was that
something like but grow up? Did you guess that they grew up in Chicago?
Were you like very aware that Midway was there kind of making games that
there was a By the time I was in like high school, I was
pretty aware of but it like grow I mean like when I was like in
like arcade times, I sort of had no like history context for was three.
It was like yeah so I wasn't born. Yeah, but like you
didn't have an awareness of the brand stuff. It was just you went to
the arcades, you enjoyed the games, and I like, you know,
the brand was NBA Jam. Not necessarily that Midway made NBA Jam, but
you knew they made NFL Blitz. You knew they they they had that sports
pedigree, and so the moment you saw another game like in that line your
friends had probably told you about it, and then well there wasn't like arcade.
I mean, there wasn't arcade criticism in the way there was that we
now had like no metacritics, and so you know, like it was a
stand up. It was the cerbat it because we're not going to be because
you didn't have to watch them to start slotting in sixty dollars putting twenty five
cents you hate it, boom I walk. It was still fun, you
know, so the but I mean like it was the stamp of credibility that
wasn't necessarily stand of the game would be awesome, like you we would give
it a couple of horns, you would give it that it was there,
right, yeah, and then you find out that it's actually like, oh,
it's like the major games company in the town that you're from. It's
a let's sort of fun out there really close dag I said, everyone's in
some warehouse in la you know, get these things cranked out of there.
I mean there was like a while there for me when when more combat was
really getting big, like m K one MK two, you always hear about
an arcade called diversions oh yeah, they would do the tests because that was
ho was in Chicago, so we would get like the different arcades in the
Chicago suburbs stuff like would get those versions updated regularly, but like I would
get there's no texts or anything back so then but sold just be like your
friends would tell you, Like, dude, like Chuck and Cheese has got
like they haven't they have a test version of Mortal Combat three. It's like
you shut the folk ups. It's six. Would get on my mike.
It's like back before there was no way to like verify rumors and stuff like
that. Like the biggest thing was in Mortal Kombats either two or three,
but it was that when the one more Sonja and like is chained up in
the in the back like shop and they're like that there's a there's a there's
a way to break her out, right, And I remember like the people
at the arcade telling us, oh, yeah, you know, we got
another version coming, so day you're gonna goble the break her out. But
like that was not true. But those versions you didn't know, like there
was always so many roots like that was one of my favorite parts of going
to the arcade was seeing like the new test version something news that ended up
being like the most devious part of of like Midways corner sucking strategy because you
think about like m K two, like, after all, you know,
this was the rise of the Internet was happening at the same time. Ye
people, you're absolutely posting like here's all the fatalities or you know, like
I was at this point. I was still in high school, but I
just wasn't going all that much. Uh there was a K two machine and
the pizza hut, so I would just like get on usenet, like look
at these lists of moons, but like I'm gonna check all this shit out,
print it out. Actually knew you would. You would go, what
character am I going to go to the arcade with and play as and no,
memorize all their moves that I can when I finally beat somebody, do
the fatality, do the compos whatever. And then they went and in one
of the revision updates changed all the fatalities right because they had all gotten out
there. I was like, I was like ed John's big like we're this
is what we're doing. Yeah, I remember it just being heartbreaking. It
was like the worst of you're just like why would you do that? Diversions.
Diversions was like for me in the time, like that was like when
you're ready actually to like step your game up, that's where you go.
And so there's actually a couple of cats and still work on World Combat to
this day that we're like the pros at Diversions, right, Brian le Baron,
Paula Garcia and Eddie Fair and the and Lex too, and I don't
know Lex's last name is, excuse me, right, but those cats were
the pros, right, and those guys actually we're playing arcade games and we're
the best, right, Like you step up the machine, you play against
one of those guys, and it was like it's almost like Tron, like
I hate too, right, It's like you're playing against those guys. Yeah,
full circles and yeah, and like if you play against one of those
just needs your ass kicks, right, And those guys were the ultimate.
And you know what's so great is that Ed and John right when they were
doing that stuff, they brought those guys into the Midway family, you know.
And so those guys still to this day, you know, work on
Mortal Kombat. And that's actually what makes you know Chicago game development for me
at least, like so still heartwarming, right, It's like those cats still
contribute to the game and are still a part of it and still care and
have heart into one. There's a lot of loyalty. Yeah, what Mortal
Kombat is as a brand as a franchise, right, Well, how did
you get your tram there midway playing jam? I mean that was my big
thing, right, So, but that was one of the last cats that
like, yeah, I called Mark Tamel like twenty six times on the phone
number back then. Actually it was it was one when they would roll the
credits eventually, right, and it was like lead Programmer was the first credit
Mark Tamel And like so I like, you know, I knew they were
in Chicago because the little commas. It's like four on one Midway, right,
And they gave me the number, and so I called, and I
called, and they call it. I called twenty six times and finally I
got a phone call back. Like I was just I just want to do
an internship, right, I know, right, like old school stalker style,
right, like kind of weird. Exactly, this is yeah pre like
you start six nine pre anyway, Yeah, exactly, you earn. You
earned it, like you you were going. You filled up it. You
filled up the tape in the answering machine exactly. And I remember the guy
that brought me in. He looked at me and he's like, you've worked
in an arcade. Uh, you have run a small video game fa hu
sie you know, pre game e FAQs and all that kind of stuff.
Right, He's like, you're completely unqualified to work here. And he's like,
but rips up my resume in front of my face him a little suite.
I feel good. He's like he's like, he's like, Markamal wants
you to work here because you've been persistent about it, and so we're gonna
give you shot. And that to me was like the same thing with like
Brian Paulo and Eddie and lets right, it was like I will do anything.
I absolutely possibly come in. It's an amazing story. Who knew that
faithful decision would eventually close midway down right right, say some Jersey, Hi
Pop, that's gonna let the plague in. It's just like into the India
time. Everyone talking to him. It was a hard warming story. I
mean, it's like that made that. That was amazing. And then that
was amazing. You brought that down real I'm so pissed. You want to
out, no, fuck you come on out. But yeah, I mean,
you know, when I was kind of first getting started on my first
year, like I started in a print magazine, the kind of went nowhere.
Which print magazine it's called Blaster, last about three issues and then I
guess the same story, yeah, kind of the story was which I was
only able to verify. Someone allegedly that the the guys that started the magazine
who had gotten a bunch of investment from the Sound Blaster people, ran off
with a Blaster sixteen. Remember, So you know, I learned to be
bitter when I was about nineteen, I got out my first magazine job.
I was a man fun this business and and I ended up I was in
school for a little bit, which I needed because I was the worst writer
in the world. Where I was writing this magazine. It is just like
I've just had no business even having a job at that point. But then
there was an arcade show in Reno, and I heard that Mortal Kombat three
was going to be there, and I was like, I'm dropping out of
this class and this school stuff and going to play MK three and hang out
with the game and former guys and we're going to drink and reno and play
MK three. So yeah, it was a super early test version. It
was like that. It was like the first, you know, it wasn't
it was the first. It was like the first time I like saw like
Ed kind of get him and talk like actually back and see. Yes in
the day they had Ed and John signing autographs at the midway, but yeah,
and it was it was like the only and also like they had like
Dan Possina like like some of the characters from Mortal Kombat there like in costume
doing stuff, and you know, it's just like this is pardiculous, like
like even then, like even as much of like an MK fan as I
was back then, I couldn't pull the trigger on I'm gonna wait in line
and get some autographs, right, It was just it was too it was
too far gone. But you'll do it now. Yeah, now you know
we're email address and home phone, you guys. Weirdly enough, they actually
sent out an autograph to lit the graph for like MK Deadly Alliance. That's
like a Ed Boon signed frame thing and it's totally like the first thing I've
moved into my house, like hanging above the fireplace like cool. It's like
it's kind of kind of like a joke of time, but it's totally still
there five years later. It's so funny because like all those all those cats,
it's like whenever you're around them, it's like, you know, it's
a weird thing. I don't think a lot of people get in the industry
because, at least for me, right, you look up to these guys,
you know. Yeah, I mean, it's just like these are the
game gods, you know, Eugene Jarvis, Smarts from out Ed Boone,
John Tobias. I mean, these guys are the game gods, you know.
And and to be around them, listen to them talk and then be
friends with them and everything, it's like you just learned so much, you
know. And and just like every single day to be able to work with
all those guys and hear them say everything from like a funny joke to actually
like a good nugget for game design is is just priceless. Yeah, you
know, and it's something that you don't get nowadays. In Gada, I
was gonna say, like like so, I mean, obviously those guys were
of a generation. Yeah, but who are the who are the George Gomans
is a guy Actually I should throw in there as well. I didn't,
but I should. Yeah, who are the new game guys? Like?
Like who matters? I mean like everyone kind of looks to the guys that
are getting a lot of a lot of attention from the press and stuff like
that. You know, guys like political Zenski Shaper. It was like,
do you think that they fill that same role or has a game development changed
so much that they're they're really you can't just go to one guy, I
think I think for that for that decade, Like I would say, each
decade, it's a new group, Like I think this decade probably not Jnomy
blow. You know the twist of pixel guys. I mean there's a new
school sort of you know, decade of people that are inspirational. Now can
they well, I mean the real important thing about the guys in mid was
that they kept doing it. They kept killing it for years and years and
years and decades. And so if the new guys continue on, clipy Be
is a perfect example, like, so as it keeps cranking up fantastic games
and people will Yeah, he'll he'll still be notable and buddy of the new
guys. I think the thing then is that they were making I mean,
like in terms of game design and innovation. At that point, making blockbuster
games was a design innovation. It's over like making games and a pee of
the basses and can speak to everybody and being compelling both in a quarter based
way and also in the home based way. It was like was its own
seat of sort of platform based innovation. And now the question is are people
making blockbusters the innovators and the game gods or is it Jonathan Blows and people
making Indian games by themselves and small teams of five? Is it the fucking
angry birds physics engine? Dude? Like? Who is you know, who
is the guy? Really? Who's right? It's so it's so funny now
because it's like it all comes down to who's making the money, right,
And that's what's getting like, you know, because the video industry is blown
up so much, right, it's like, all right, so who's making
the money? Honestly, dude, down like and those guys like bam bam
bam. Right. But at the same time, I mean, like back
in the day when we were doing it. It's like those guys with the
game Gods was still small enough that you actually cared and and they could give
you a lot of those very multifunctional right, you know, persons like the
guys that were kind of looking up to now as these game gods, like
in a lot of cases, aren't they just really good managers or are the
true visionary? That's that's why they being the classic game track they've had a
GDC. This series has been so fascinating to watch because you get people like
Jordan mcner breaking down making Prince of Persia and how her rotascoped, the animation,
shooting his brother jumping right, spending eleven thousand dollars on a camera and
then immediately sending it back because there was a thirty day guarantee because he couldn't
afford you and that and that stuff, and watching that contrasted with you know,
a talk with Clue with Lazinski, It's all changed so much, and
it's not even the fault of those guys. These teams have scoped out to
such a degree it's become a team sport, right, and likes become full
and it's always been a team effort but it's not become a thing where you're
looking at you're looking for Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan, right, you're looking
for the guy who's coaching a crew of people nice Chicago. So it's right,
don't leave me. Hang, I didn't know. I thought you're gonna
punch me in the face. But at this point, But it doesn't mean
they're not visionaries, because it's probably guys who were in that first meeting and
then they're in the last meeting where the ship in the game and that guidance
along the process isn't important. It's what keeps in the street going and with
things being as there, every game is thirty million dollars. It's the guys
who you're willing to bet on, right, it's the guys who you're gonna
bet the pharm on every That's why like the guys that do it like cross
Eras are amazing because it's like you gotta get like so they when it was
like just three people on a team and all was was mechanics and controls and
they can do it then and then you got guys like Ed Boone. We're
leading now a team of just huge team just getting it done. Still and
that whole f and time, right, he goes from just programming, like
doing code, like picking out frames of animation years, so now we're just
drecting a team of hundreds of people or however big it is to deliver the
same the division the same way he wants it done. That's why he's like
super amazing and all this group of like superstars. It's like, I think
the small the small guys, I think are the ones who are making huge
innovations and games. I think that the guys that we're talking about, these
sort of team leader guys, are making huge innovations in entertainment. Those are
the guys who we're seeing as the leaders of making experiences a speak to anyone,
but the guys behind fucking connect It's like, what that's not that's not
really like a huge game exactly, Like that's a crazy that's a crazy year
exactly. But but you know, but the guy's making these the you know,
an iPhone game like the thirty that like fourteen year old kid who finally
toppled uh and took over the top of the iPhone chart with his like physics
gaming he made. That's pretty sure, And so that's the thing where it's
like that kid's making a cool little game that he's not making necessarily, he's
entertainment experience can become a movie in two years. At the same time,
though, they're really freaking me out of it. Yeah, I'm not fourteen
and I'm not one that like that. It's like, is it that much
the Wild West that exactly zero experience can do that? And then a certain
platforms. Absolutely, I think. I think it's awesome to get me wrong.
Right. At the same time, it's also scary, right because it's
like, you know, here, I am and everybody right that, like
have worked in the game industry for a very long time, and a fourteen
year old kid comes along. It's like, hey, yo, I just
make yes and that's awesome, due and get him to make the next Tronta.
I mean, I think that's I think that's I think I think that's
what a Watta was talking about right where he was like, it's about quality,
and I think that what he was saying got misconstrued and probably like twisted
the way they wanted to be. But I think he was like, don't
forget that it's really important to make high quality entertainment. That's what makes people
like and have I have liked and has expanded our industry the way it is.
It's it's all about high quality entertainment. So don't forget that. Yeah,
I think it was like all same, like even though the ninety nine
cent games are seeming like them and the freemium and freedom Lay and Austin like,
don't forget you should be able to charge for things that you're proud of,
Like don't people will pay for good entertainment that you're proud and but also
they have to be you know, polished to the max. That's the Japanese
Montrose, you know, like they spend all that time making sure that you
know, everything is covered. And I think that was kind of his thing,
was like you should be able to charge good money for good entertainment.
But that's such a platform agnostic argument, right, That's that's the weird thing
now is And Cliff had a slap the day and his talk where he was
showing I think he stole it from he credited he stole it from somebody.
Slabe was like, you know, in nineteen ninety two, here are the
platforms people are competing on. It. It was like share, I mean
like it was like three or four platforms just like you see, here's what's
going on now, And it was like seventy different platforms where you had like
Microsoft, and Microsoft was Xbox, Xbox from sixty connect and it was like
all these branches. And he says, basically, at the end of the
day, the problem we have is that the while West, because a game
like Angry Birds can come out on the iPhone, everyone in the concentrators like,
well, fuck that, we don't need to worry about that. Shit,
that's its own, like sort of segregated, right, And then it's
just like but now and now we all rushed towards that, and goes,
so what is that doing? We should make that Everyone jumps all right,
But it's different. It's not supposed to be the same thing. And what
I think of water I was talking about is like, you should be able
to charge sixty dollars for a console game that's twenty hours, but it doesn't
mean you have to make it forty hours to push away from Yeah, you're
a two second experience over again, it's just a different thing, like,
embrace what you're making for the medium you're making it for. I think that
like for me, personally, the thing that I'm most excited about all mobile
and social because everyone's sorry about that and like, oh social's big bubble,
Like oh mobile, this mooble that right. The thing that I'm most excited
about with everyone that's doing mobile and social is that, whether they realize it
or not, they're driving people into the video and so like exactly, That's
what I'm saying, Like, so people are so threatened or like should we
be doing this? Should be mean? And that, like, please let
everyone do what they're doing, because you know what, like it's eventually those
guys are just getting into mobile and they're just getting into like social, They're
gonna get into what the a lot of us are making right where like the
twenty thirty hour experiences. So I'm like a huge fan of all mobile and
social. Please grab everyone in the entire world and bring them into buying video
game buying councils. Like absolutely, I completely embrace that. What people get
I think gonna get freaked out. No one wants. The thing is that
the first publishing is gonna stop and just stay back and take a really holistic
approach. It's gonna be the one of the wins, because right now they're
all like being very reactive, like, ya, this is making so much.
Let's there if we if we don't have a Dragon Age Facebook game,
this whole thing's umed. Yeah, And then they're doing they're like that cost
us four million dollars. Yeah, like what are we getting back from nobody
building? And you know, are they really looking at it in terms of
like we're making a game, or they're looking at it in terms we're building
awareness. And that's honestly one of the big big Facebook stuff or like mobile
stuff, iPhone stuff and things like that. I remember there's some sort of
like rock Bands rock Icons game, which is in no way similar to the
jewel It was sort of like an outsource thing that MTV Games was putting together.
That's some that's some nice thing for that was actually it had rock Band
Network tracks some of like undiscovered bands as the background audio, so as you
were matching icons, you kirk some music and could fight out about some groups.
But it was it was just sort of like, oh, there's always
some rockman udicons coming on the screen and match them off. You think about
the game Rap Band, same thing with the you know, we did the
thing with Pepsi where We're on the caps of a bunch of Pepsi bottles across
the country. It's like that is good brand awareness, but it doesn't mean
that you can develop a shitty game with good brand awareness and have to be
a compelling experience that people want to play for more than five minutes, which
is the danger, which is the danger when people start the gig. Well,
Facebook games are something to need to worry about because they're in a different
area where it's like yeah, but they have the hook mechanic where people are
coming to them. And I play the Ship out of every pop Got game,
Like I don't want to play Zula Revenge all the way at the end,
but I played it all the way Yeah, and even though I had
to take a sick down or to finish it on like cold Medicine, and
I just played it till it was done. But it's like that game as
Hookie, as Ship, I played the I played until I was finished.
Yeah. But like PopCap is different from and their games are different from like
wood Zingers totally yeah, you know, like Cityville, right, like it
finally took someone to like Adam or Days slap me across the face is like
why are you playing this game as much as you are, And I'm like,
I don't know, compulsion, you know, it's I was. I
interviewed drag the dragon Us creator Jujihori a couple of weeks ago, and I
asked him, you know, what are you playing right now? Like O?
Then you know, drag Us kind of consumes your life and doing anything
else. It's like I'm addicted to Cityville. Yeah, And he was like,
I'm not going to tell you that what my Facebook and name is because
I don't want everyone to add any but I he was, you know,
but I think I think the thing is like the gamers and some developers get
scared because they think, well that's where everyone's going, we should go that
way, and we're not gonna be able to make the games that we want
to make anymore. But every you know, if people come in, they
will maybe they'll play the games that we talk about in their passion about but
maybe they won't. But it's not like it's not all going to disappear.
Just because it was doing really well Farmans doing well, for tear Bells doing
well doesn't mean that dragon Age and Massive Fat are going to disappear. And
I think that's that's the knee jrik reaction is thinking because of those games are
getting popular in the attention that the games that you grew up on are going
to exist. I mean again, I'll say this right, Like the huge
divide is that there are so many people intimidate and scared it scared scared it
scared by yeah sorry yea, these like Ioax, Android and Facebook is like,
oh, what are we gonna do? And the entire industy is gonna
change? Like, no, you don't realize that for everyone that's actually playing
your game, they're also playing console games, and you know what, you
should look at it as a blessing that everyone else that they're bringing in.
If you only get a small fraction, that's great. I don't know,
because eventually it's like watching YouTube videos and then watching a movie, right,
and it's like, eventually these guys are gonna getting into the news. Seeing
it really is kind of the beau of thing about how all the stuff is
changing, and it's you know, it's it's It's been interesting for me over
the years because as mobile rose as trip Hawkins and digital Chocolate kind of got
out there back you know, pre iPhone and started spending all this money on
on just mobile development, and you know brew and all this plug J two
and me and all that stuff. Uh, you know, you have a
businessman come to you someday ago. Why aren't we covering this stuff? Right?
And you say, well, because the audience that we're currently catering to
is not necessarily interested in this stuff. And also the audience that's playing this
stuff doesn't read our side. But yeah, exactly, it's like you know,
who who who out there wants to read reviews of ninety nine cent black
at games? You know, it's like do you want to you know,
I'm gonna come to time, you gonna spend doing a round up. It's
like, here's the best five card stud poker on your it's gonna make Yeah,
that's that's the game off phone. I mean, thank thank on the
phone? Yeah now yeah, has the same two phones and and then that's
less of a problem now. But it's it's uh, it's definitely you know,
because I had to get up to speed on a lot of the pre
iPhone mobile stuff as a result of that stuff, and it was a really
interesting study in terms of just like, well, this is not something we
should cover, but I'm glad that I at least went through this because you
know, went then when the iPhone kind of broke and got really big,
I was in more of a position to kind of see how that stuff was
changing. But in terms of that platform going from a wild west there down
to like, you know, two or three dominant platform holders, which isn't
that different than console game where we have two or three dominant platform holders.
I don't. I mean, from my perspective, I think that for traditional
console game developers who are scared about this space, it's scared about making titanic
games versus a ninety nine cent you know, one second mechanical and over again.
It's like, isn't that what XPLA and PSN or four like? Isn't
like isn't that what Double Fine is doing right now? Which is that you
know, the last game I finished Bulletstorm before I came out here, But
the last two games I finished were stacking and you know, constant questions in
a weekend, in a day, and I felt like I had a really
good time and good experience with it. I didn't feel like, well,
if I you know, end up, I haven't getting swamped with work and
I can't dedicate forty hours of this. I'm not really gonna get my sixty
dollars, so why would I pay for it? But it's like you're at
least accomplishing something. I spent fifteen dollars for five hours, which isn't actually
the same breakdown, but I was much happier with that. Yeah, what
was your first thirty hours of going through the intro stacking? Like, uh,
it was? It was. It was a little a little confused until
I found that character could identify everybody that was I was laughing because like I
call Adam on the phone or actually, no, you call me on the
phone, and I was like, he's like, what you do. I'm
like, I'm playing a second and he's like, what's going on? Like
it's still the opening. I'm still trying to find why this guy's talking.
It was it was like the opening. Yeah, it's very deliberately paced,
you know, to like achieve that silent film look like they had to they
had to kind of do work, you know. It's a definitely like I
found myself going like can I just skip through this stuff? Like I've become
very impatient as a players terrible that the same way the like, like the
breakout competition that no one really expected was the Packman Championship, and yeah,
yeah they came to like Furious x X plus Live Friends List Flight Between like
everyone a Giant Bomb and the Universe, And I played the share that game.
It was and it was not just pacmanpoorted over XBLA. It was like,
actually some cool design decisions that were made. But yeah, and it's
spent money on that. It's another one of the things that's really exciting to
just see, like the rise of the download game and also the return of
the small team game as a result. Well, you know, one of
the things that kind of ties back to our kame. These guys can have
a vision and execute on it, and it's not always great obviously, you
know, there's playing of download games that just come out looking like joke.
The interesting thing about this week at g DC has been the theme that I
found talking to all the publishers is like a big sort of sad trombone.
I mean they're all like stuff and guys and then everyone else I'm finding,
Yeah, they're like what do we do? Do we do social? Do
we do mobile? How much of each do we do? Were we moving
and all the people like my company in the independent developments, like I love
this. This is the rock solid stuff because it's it is kind of world
West, which we're defining what the future is going to be. And publishers
just aren't built to be able to handle the digital content and so they're frustrated.
But they independent movies and blockbuster movies right like brothers, and they can't
publish. I mean they and they have like any movie arms maybe, but
you're not gonna get a breakout. It's but it's a chicken and the egg
thing too, because a lot of that was like, oh, the markets
change and consumers are getting different games or whatever. But I think a lot
of that has to do with that. It's not so much. I mean,
that's obviously part of it, but developers have changed. Like when I
grew up, I'd buy Encounter Seas four games, the archon and buy all
the stuff with like the record album covers kind of hang the ship in my
wall I had, like the EA we see farther post on my wall with
Bill Budge and Westball and all that, and like I'm like, my goal
is to work at THEA. Like now do you think like I don't know
the Superman Boy guys at all, but do you think they want to fucking
work at easing the small groups. It's so identifiable when you say notch in
Minecraft, it's like, I want to be notch, Like do I want
to me Clifford me running this whole big, huge team Aroundy Pitchford and running
the whole company. You know, it's like can identify with the guy that
has says I want to be notch, like he in the talk to Its
like he was a lot of the streams like which it was kind of funny
because you know his whole thing, and you know, you ask him like,
hey, would you ever think about doing a new jazz Jack Rabbit or
something like that. I returned to like a smaller download walking about that we're
not saying we don't need to talk about that Billy ber again where you saw
he was there for the witness of the conversation, but yeah, this is
before that stuff. And he would say no, fuck no, like we're
making these big games, like it was kind of Xblas coming up. He's
like, these big blockbuster games, this is what I want to make.
And to hear him kind of changes his tune a little bit. I think
probably speaks to like how crazy he Well, someone said back and be an
Indian and make a team, make a game with ten people, and he
or like, would you go down that path and have more control and be
a power creative really drive that vision. He's like, fuck no, because
I get to work with these people who balance down a team or so into
my and actually check my crazy vision. But it means we need to make
these bigger experiences that millions of people enjoy. And that's important too. It's
part of the industry. It's part of what those games forward to make it.
You know, the Mind Trip Gears three being on fucking it wasn't our
coner of Fallon, the Jimmy Fallon. Yeah, it was like, Jimmy
found video trailer is just cooled it in the middle of the late night show,
they'll show a video game trailer for a minute. That's that's pretty rape,
that's pretty way. Chicago was pretty cool too. People should go.
Yeah. Yeah, Chicot's Tourism Bureau as Chicago was still off. I remember
going to CS and I we were at an EA Sports party when the Bulls
won. Uh which of the three pet one? Yeah? Which I mean
it would have been first three, second three peat. It would have been
early nineties. It would have been like some time between first three two three,
and we were on Rush Street getting out of this party and it was
like even flipping cars though, like me and it's Randy and Paul from Game
and Former and like roymcdonald who was who was? It was like, shoe,
where's all the e GM guys because they're all on Lombard. I don't
think any of those guys like they were, right, I mean, you
know, it's yeah, but that's how I got my start with It was
like MS working my way over to the lumbard our empe. So this is
I think this is like kind of pre shoot. This is more like Steve
Harris ed Samuraid sort of like this is sushi x Ken William. So yeah,
and I remember like going to see us and having a guy like point
out, there's a guy playing a street fighter machine and so I'm going to
and you look at it like never was You're telling me this pudgy white dude
is fucking it turn up right? Like I totally was. It was like
it was like, em so let's see this, Let's go around the table,
right, what was the one arcade game that was like the big one
for you Smash TV. So that's a little late but all like Gallagha and
Blaxie and and all that stuff. But but yeah, that one and also
watching my dad played dragons Layer. We would go to the arcade on weekends
and stuff. That was the first game I ever played. I could never
I was fucking terrible at it, but he got to a point where he
was beating dragons Layer. And we would play a lot of Gauntlet and Cary
Warriors together, So yeah, I would. I was a younger brother.
So the first game that I'm always I've always be more of a co op
guy, Like I'm I'm much more a fan of say, Left for Dead
than yeah, yeah co op you but we uh the first game that we
both sort of recognized characters that have played together. It was actually, this
is gonna be a little weird, but the Simpsons game Simponsky Cabinet, my
brother, my brother, I will be Bart Simpson right now. I'm I'm
six years old, and I'll put the ship out of this and we would
just put a course in that hall like Aladdin's Castle in the Mall's Castle I
remember because yeah, so Drake and I are from the same hometown literally,
right, And it made me laughed so hard because yeah, I remember Letten's
Castle had because Canalis in Buffalo Grove at the time, and Canami had all
these different arcade uh cabinets on tests and Lenn's Castle's own, So yeah,
that was what that was? What was it for you? It was a
jam? Fuck well it's jam of course, But actually the one that actually
really hooked me that big time was Killer Instinct. And I know a lot.
What did you think? What terrible killer inst You didn't like killer You're
fucking kidding me? Killer like fighting games where you actually had to play them,
not where you just like Dial of Combos. See that, That to
me says that I'm not exactly Yeah, killer instinct for me because I was
a huge, rare fan, right, I mean like Dunkey Kong Country,
everything I was doing, like did you kill Killer cuts the c D?
Yeah I did, and we've been dancing on stage. There's actually there's actually
a buddy that that I went to grade school with, Georgia Pree, right,
who's like, I remember when you were in grade school, you had
a killer in Stinc Medallion, Like, I totally like bit that pole.
I was into, Like Killer in Sinc was like was it because it was
like Midway and it was rare. It was a Nintendo so it was a
huge fan of Killer Instinct for me. There was no actually our kid in
my hometown, so Birch Bay, Washington State, we had to go,
and we would go there twice year. I would say about all my money,
I would play Gauntlet in seven twenty, like literally thirty bucks on each.
I would just be like, dad dropped out in twenty the n sixty
four game. No the skateboarding, Oh yeah, sorry, I skate on
that game. I called up my local arcade once and asked them how much
it would cost to buy a seven twenty mission. Dude, I didn't give
you an answer. Yeah, it was like five thousand dollars, right.
I actually asked for for my birthday one year store once and asked how much
it would be to buy a chimpanzee. So I understand, Yeah, no
seven twenty chimpanzee, seven twenty last forever ships in his pants, in your
mouth, in your mouth, on your head, all right, sorry,
damning Track and Field. I remember the Let's cast up at my house.
They had the bottery. Yeah, they in the track and field and all
so by us. It was everyone had the comb in their fingers. Yeah,
and they would use that to like lover the buttons. I see people
bring spoons or pencils were big too. But then I remember they were also
junkies, so they it was then like there's the year I fell in love
with it and we wanted this family vacation. I remember where we're driving and
we're at this like four Seasons resort or something, and we get there they
have an arcade, and naturally go to the arcade to check it out,
and they had a fucking track ball track and field. Blew in my fucking
mind, didn't know what existed. But it's like, instead of like this,
it's just spitting the things fashkin and yeah. Then basically it's like I
wasn't yeah, and I just did that all that. It was incredible.
It was like sacrilege. But I'm still so awesome. I'm so crazy.
Yeah, and to this day, you're still really good at furiously passing your
hand over knobs. Next for a job, the one for me actually actually
turned out to be NBA jam because I had the fondest memories of Uh,
my parents owned a rent this lake house in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, just
snore to the Illinois border, and uh there was this NBAB. She had
this bar, this like family bar that everyone kind of go to, and
we would spend the entire fall collecting change into these giant of those giant crams,
you boys, I do. So my parents got that for us and
they were like, so we're tired of having to give you so much money
to play NBA Jam. So just you guys, spend the fall in the
winter putting coins into this crayon and then that's what you get to spend on
NBA Jam. And we would we would cash it it. We'd take this
giant cran ticket to the bank, get hundreds of quarters and that we would
spend. I mean a dam was a quarter per quarter, so that added
up pretty quick. But because we had the giant cran, that's what I
would spend my our entire summer's doing awesome. Well, I think that's gonna
do it for us. I know it seems the most boring bombast, It's
like weird nostalgia. Just cut it off after the threesome story. It's done.
If you want, if you must want to tell some horrible Midway story,
now is the time. That's a good horrible it's right exactly. Thank
you. But that's been a g DC from us here. Thanks for watching
or listening. If you're listening. If you're not listening, then you're not
even hearing me. Thank you for watching, so I guess thank you for
watching and or listening talking All right, Yes, that's GDC. We'll be
back with regular podcasts on Tuesday and then Packs East. Don't forget Friday night
of Pack East. We've got our panel. Thursday Night of Pack East will
be judging the Harmonics rock band Radel Theater in Harvard Square. Come on later
to see heavy metal screen on the big screen. Weird as Yeah, I
don't think we're gonna we're flying in that day, so you're not gonna be
there, all right, Well he'll be there, heavy Metal, heavy Metal
the sefentefifty fifty sixty TI