WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:09.560 This podcast contains intense subject matter. Listener discretion is advised. Previously on Still 2 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.239 So nobody in my family. They're all saying, Susan, I see kind 3 00:00:25.239 --> 00:00:27.839 of a resemblance, But there's no way that's your mom. We would have 4 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:32.880 known she's prime that there's no way she could have said that, And something 5 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:38.000 that people who came forward and said, you know, when they saw her 6 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:44.880 and everything, which was either she went and stayed with somebody else because she 7 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:51.280 was seen by people that lived down the street from him, and they all 8 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:56.439 knew her well, and she went for walks daily. She was always battling 9 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:02.119 her weight. But it was called knowledge that they were running a call girl 10 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:23.200 ring out of the top floor of the tab of Era Hotel. From the 11 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:37.920 pages of the reporter's notebook. This is still season two. I'm your host, 12 00:01:38.319 --> 00:02:15.960 Gary Anderson. I want to rewind a little and discuss in more detail 13 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:22.080 what investigators found and what they didn't find in the grave of the Jane Doe 14 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:28.639 discovered near Finlay Creek in the Blue Mountains of eastern Oregon. To refresh your 15 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.879 memory, in late August of nineteen seventy eight, Rob Parr was eight years 16 00:02:31.879 --> 00:02:37.520 old and had gone hunting with his dad. Another boy in their hunting party 17 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:40.199 found the graveside on a game trail, part way up a steep hill. 18 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.319 The boy made his way back to camp to tell the others what he saw. 19 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.319 This is how Rob described it in a previous episode, when we came 20 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:53.840 back up and found it, you know, because it was initially found and 21 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:57.759 then you know, the kid didn't know where it was, and so everybody 22 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:01.800 came up looking. And I remember my dad and I we were done. 23 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:06.000 We were we couldn't find it. Everybody's calling it quits, and we were 24 00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:12.639 headed back and we were coming from this direction down the trail, and bam, 25 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:21.360 there it was. But I vividly remember the skull, the boots in 26 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:35.560 between the skull and ribcage. I can see it playing his day. First, 27 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:40.639 let's talk about the clothing. Remember Patty Otto was last seen wearing a 28 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:47.120 white sleeveless blouse and red pants. Her outfit didn't fully match what investigators said 29 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:53.800 they found in the grave what I recall reading. And we were able to 30 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.479 get the records from the state police. It took a while, but we 31 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:02.319 did get them. This as Finlay Creek, Jindo Task Force investigator and researcher 32 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:15.479 Melinda Jetterberg, and the investigators described some white cloth and some white cloth with 33 00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:21.600 red hearts on it. They also described a white either halter top or bra 34 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:29.040 style top. A personal think it was just straight up a bra. It 35 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:33.120 seems that investigators assumed that the halter was the only top the Jindo was wearing. 36 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:44.360 Melinda believes it was simply a bass layer and the woman was wearing a 37 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:50.560 shirt over the bra or halter top. The outer layer of clothing could have 38 00:04:50.600 --> 00:05:00.120 been torn away during a struggle or even carried away by animals. The their 39 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.279 piece of cloth found which had red hearts may have been part of that shirt. 40 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.399 Some of the researchers have wondered if the hearts may have actually been red 41 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:15.879 flowers or cherries that crime scene investigators misremembered or documented incorrectly. But I keep 42 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.319 thinking, you know, it was a bunch of men who dug this grade 43 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:23.000 out, so you know, they observed what they see and write it down. 44 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:29.639 And then they had this pair of red pants that they described them as 45 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:38.000 Catalina pants, a junior size. I believe it was fifteen sixteen. They 46 00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:43.439 were red, and they showed evidence of length alteration. And immediately what my 47 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:46.959 mind went to was when I was growing up late seventies, early eighties, 48 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:53.600 as my mom had these polyester pants and she had a red pair, and 49 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:57.519 they had an elastic waistband, And so that's what has always been in my 50 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:02.199 mind about what those pants looked like, simply because we don't have pictures of 51 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:06.399 them. All we have is a description. They weren't even They didn't really 52 00:06:06.439 --> 00:06:12.800 even describe whether there was an elastic waste fan, whether there was a zipper 53 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:17.040 on the pants. They do describe some zippers in the grave, but not 54 00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:21.680 really saying what they were from, So potentially they could have been from the 55 00:06:21.720 --> 00:06:26.560 pants, maybe some of the other fabric made up a jacket, I don't 56 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:30.519 know. They just describe it as a zipper being in there. At least 57 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.199 one other woman who was found murdered in this area a few years after the 58 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:39.240 discovery of the Finlay Creek, Jane Doe, was also wearing red bottoms. 59 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:46.040 Here's a retired Union County District Attorney, Dale Mammon. The early one was 60 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:53.879 during my term, which was Sylvia Heistemann, and a local person that was 61 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:59.480 jogging in one of the rural roads right adjoining the city and was brutally murdered, 62 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:04.040 left in a creek bed, and her murder, my knowledge, has 63 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:11.480 never been solved. But the body was located, but the perpetrator iss unknown. 64 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:16.120 Then I'm still unknown. Sylvia was forty three years old and was wearing 65 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:23.079 a white top in red shorts when she vanished. We also found reports of 66 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:27.720 a few other women in the Pacific Northwest who went missing while wearing red or 67 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:32.040 rust colored pants. But we don't want you to jump to conclusions about a 68 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:38.920 serial killer with a fetish for red pants hunting down victims. That's certainly possible, 69 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:44.519 but it's definitely not a foregone conclusion. Red was a fairly popular color 70 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:53.720 for pants in the mid seventies and early eighties. ABC News goes to the 71 00:07:53.879 --> 00:08:05.480 Great American Birthday Body for those of you too young to remember, nineteen seventy 72 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.959 six was a year of fanfare and pageantry as the nation celebrated its two hundredth 73 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:16.959 birthday. Red, white, and blue were everywhere in fashion. Even Fara 74 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:22.959 Faucets swimsuit in that iconic poster was a blazing shade of red. Susann Thimmes 75 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:26.920 has a photo of her mother, Patti Otto, from the mid seventies wearing 76 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.639 stretchy red trousers, possibly the same pants she was described as wearing when she 77 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.960 vanished. We researched the Catalina brand, which was the label on the red 78 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.519 pants the Jane Doe was wearing. The Catalina company, which is based in 79 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:46.759 California, now specializes in swimwear, but back in the nineteen seventies, the 80 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:52.919 fashion line had expanded to what was considered better sportswear, including shirts, pants, 81 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.279 shorts, and skirts. This wasn't a brand you'd find in discount clothing 82 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:03.759 stores. The clothes were the casual sheikhs style favored by tennis players and ladies 83 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:09.840 of leisure. An internet searge for similar vintage pants turned up a pair of 84 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:16.159 orange red Cantelina brand pants for sale. They were the exact size of the 85 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.919 pants in the grave. The waist measurements for the pants listed for sale is 86 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.279 thirty to thirty four inches in modern clothing, that's the equivalent of a lady's 87 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:30.000 medium or large, and could be anything from a lady's size eight to a 88 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:35.759 fourteen. If anyone listening has pants like this in your closet or remembers owning 89 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.960 a pair, we'd love to hear from you. Now back to what was 90 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:52.519 inside the shallow grave. Other than the bra style top, there were no 91 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:58.960 undergarments found there, but investigators believed that may have been because of animals scavenging. 92 00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:03.600 That also supports our idea that a shirt of some sort may have once 93 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:11.360 been in the grave. And then there was the Jando's footwear. The ankle 94 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:15.960 high boots she was wearing weren't necessarily a fashionable choice, but she may have 95 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.679 chosen them for practicality, especially if she was planning to do a lot of 96 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:28.440 walking. Here's mel Jetterburg again. As a matter of fact, the suggestions 97 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.399 that have been given to the Filly Creek Jando page are very distinctly men's shoes. 98 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:41.480 It's images of men's shoes that have been suggested. They have thicker soles 99 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.639 on them with a distinct heel, so instead of being like a flat all 100 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:52.720 one piece soule, there's definitely like a footbed and then a heel on them. 101 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:58.279 And one of the shoes is also worn towards the ball of the foot 102 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:05.840 a lot more than the other one is, so it appears, and this 103 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.320 is an observation that was made by some of the Facebook page followers as well 104 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.200 that the one shoe, it's like, did they have a limp? Was 105 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:18.159 there something wrong with her foot because it looks like one of those shoes is 106 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:22.440 worn down a lot more on kind of the inside of the foot than the 107 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:26.919 other shoes. A lot of theories came up because of the boots, like 108 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:31.879 maybe she's a hitchhiker and that's why they were worn on one side, or 109 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.799 maybe they were just out for a day, and though she borrowed those shoes, 110 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.639 that they weren't actually hers. There have been a couple of different suggestions 111 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.639 like that, but we none of us feel like those are women's shoes. 112 00:11:43.759 --> 00:12:11.759 We feel very strongly those were men's shoes and probably not hers. We're going 113 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:16.399 to talk more about the boots and some of our own theories we've developed in 114 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:22.240 the next episode. For now, let's talk about what else was in and 115 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:39.320 around the grave. If you recall from the last episode, Amity Larson's search 116 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:45.559 dog Brenn, had given a trained final response indicating she had located the odor 117 00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.440 of human remains near a tree close to the grave site. We are hopeful 118 00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:58.919 that new evidence might be found to help us get closer to answers this is 119 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:05.960 Amity talking about seeing her dog give the alert. So um, I mean 120 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:13.399 it was exciting, but he thought, well, that's interesting. So we 121 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:18.080 pulled her out and I sent her back in and worked, and she had 122 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.120 many of the same behaviors why it had had with Plimnut the tree, but 123 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:28.639 she was more interested in the ground area. So we actually spent some time 124 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:33.759 really looking and kind of trying to disturb things without being you know, you're 125 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:39.840 looking for something really, really small, and so we kind of worked around 126 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:45.240 there to see if we could uncover something that wasn't very very deep, and 127 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.519 then we would send her back in and she would give a trained final response. 128 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:54.840 We visually didn't see anything, but we also didn't want to disturb the 129 00:13:54.840 --> 00:14:01.120 area a whole lot where we weren't prepared to collect anything. That we did 130 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:07.559 mark it correctly that time and took lots and lots of photograph After driving back 131 00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:13.159 from searching that day, Ammony got in touch with other canine search experts to 132 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:18.240 get their opinions about what happened with the dogs that day. The first person 133 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:22.080 she talked with, Paul Martin, recommended organizing an archaeological dig of the grave 134 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:28.039 site. She also talked with Johnny Joyce, an internationally certified canine handler and 135 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.080 trainer. She feels like though when she looked at the map of the location 136 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.559 of where the grave is and the distance to the trees, when we mapped 137 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.080 it out with the GPS and everything, she feels like the time and Daby 138 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:45.600 were there, that the sun and when we talked about wind direction all of 139 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:52.360 that, she believed that odor from the grave site was being pulled up the 140 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:56.759 hill of short ways in that direction and caught in those trees, and that 141 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:01.440 that's what the dog for picking up on, especially where Wyatt had odd at 142 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:09.039 the grade site and been so interested in it. Melinda and Suzanne are working 143 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.360 to organize a more thorough grid search of the area, along with some digging 144 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:18.279 for bones later in twenty twenty two after the snow melts. Oregon State Police 145 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:24.519 will be there when the team returns to the site. Back in nineteen seventy 146 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:28.840 eight, investigators also found two pieces of coaxle cable that had been knotted together. 147 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:33.960 The cable was in the dirt near what would have been the Jane Doe's 148 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.600 neck. They noted that the cable could have come from a CBE radio and 149 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:43.679 they speculated that it may have been used to strangle the woman. Again, 150 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:48.240 we don't want to jump to conclusions about the CBE radio. A CBE radio 151 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:52.240 may make you immediately think of truckers, but a lot of people who didn't 152 00:15:52.320 --> 00:15:58.200 drive for a living had CBE radios in the nineteen seventies. This was long 153 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:02.440 before cell phones, so cb were a convenient way to communicate while on the 154 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:07.000 road in rural America. They were practically standard issue when you bought a vehicle 155 00:16:08.440 --> 00:16:14.200 because CB radios and their accessories were so common. The cable doesn't provide a 156 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:18.960 terribly useful clue, but if the cable still existed, it might be possible 157 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.840 to find DNA belonging to the killer on it. Keep in mind, too, 158 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.879 that investigators theorized that it came from a CB, but there were plenty 159 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:33.159 of other uses for coax cable back in the seventies. We don't have detailed 160 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:36.679 photos of the cable found in the grave, so we can't be certain what 161 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:40.279 the ends looked like, if they had a specific type of connector, or 162 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:45.320 if the ends had been cut. Even the exact length of the cable isn't 163 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:55.759 clear well. The police report says approximately two feet long and tied in a 164 00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:07.039 notch, and that was how Doc Baker notated it. Doc Baker was the 165 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:12.599 Oregon State Police trooper who originally responded to the scene, and I think that 166 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:21.799 three feet probably came from Dale Mammon from the press release that he did. 167 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:27.480 I think his was more of an approximate estimation based on conversation rather than actually 168 00:17:27.519 --> 00:17:33.319 and I'm not sure that anyone actually ever took a tape measure and measured the 169 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:37.599 thing out. These are all just approximate, And when you have a big, 170 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.240 not tight in the middle of it, you know, radio cable's not 171 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.960 going to be the most flexible, so that could take up a good four 172 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.319 to six inches in the middle that they kind of have to guestimate for. 173 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:55.680 So right, so between between two and three feet. We don't have a 174 00:17:55.720 --> 00:18:00.480 copy of a supplemental report that would have given more details about the cable measurements 175 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.720 and other items in the grave. The investigator in the Oregon State Crime Lab 176 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:11.119 indicated in his initial documentation of the evidence that he would create another narrative with 177 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.720 more specifics about everything found at the scene, but it's unclear if that report 178 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:22.960 was ever generated. Neither Melinda nor her cohort Jason Futch, received a copy 179 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.759 of it when they were given the remaining records. The investigator who authored the 180 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:33.440 preliminary report has since passed away. We also reached out to the state trooper 181 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:37.839 who signed the final report before the Finlay Creek case was officially closed. His 182 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.480 wife told us that he was required to turn in the notes related to all 183 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.359 his cases when he retired, and he didn't have information that might help us. 184 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.640 At the grave site, some charred pieces of wood were also found on 185 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.759 the trail near the woman's remains, along with a partially burned wooden match and 186 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:02.039 no baby clothes, right correct. That's one thing that I noted early on 187 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:07.160 because one of the things that Dale Mammon had speculated early on was that this 188 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:14.640 could be a brand newborn. But there's nothing to indicate that it was an 189 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:22.039 infant who was dressed or had any things with it either. Everything they found 190 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:26.119 in the grave indicated that those were clothing items that belonged to the mom, 191 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:33.799 so likely that's why they were able to draw the conclusion that she was pregnant 192 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.920 rather than actually had an infant with her, right and even in the summer 193 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:41.759 most of the time if you're leaving the house with a really young baby, 194 00:19:41.799 --> 00:19:45.319 you've got a blanket with you. Oh yeah, you've got all kinds of 195 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:52.559 accessories with you. They've got a baby with you on the woods. And 196 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:56.359 none of that was there. Just literally, the clothing on this woman's back 197 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.799 is all that was there, notably absent from the crime I seen or a 198 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.319 purse, backpack, or other belongings to indicate she may have been a hiker 199 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:10.480 or a traveler who had hitched a ride. Where are her things? Where 200 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.240 is her stuff? She is a late teen to early twenties, estimated she 201 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:23.880 looked to be a relatively fashionable young lady. She was pregnant. She's out 202 00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.640 in the woods. If she's out there of her own free will, maybe 203 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:33.279 having a little stroll, where's her stuff? Where's her you know? Where's 204 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.160 her chapstick? Where's any jewelry? There was no jewelry, no earrings, 205 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:42.519 necklace, no belt, no rings on the fingers, nothing like that. 206 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:48.880 So where is all that? The woman's right arm had become separated from the 207 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:53.960 rest of her body, possibly because of animal activity. There were no scars 208 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:59.119 from violence on her skeleton, but investigators feel certain that she was murdered. 209 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:03.599 The pieces of cable in the grave and the fact that she had been buried 210 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.559 did indicate an attempt by some one to conceal a crime. If the woman 211 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.960 didn't walk up to that spot where she was found under her own power, 212 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:18.160 someone must have carried or dragged her up that fairly steep and rocky hill. 213 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:23.759 It's certainly not Denali, but it's also not a particularly easy hike. Several 214 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.759 people in our group lost their footing on different occasions while climbing the hill to 215 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:33.119 see the grave site. Based on rough calculations we made the trail where she 216 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.240 was buried is up a thirty foot rise with about a twenty percent grade. 217 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:41.759 If you tumbled down the hill, you'd land in a dry creek bed filled 218 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:48.200 with large river rocks. There are no artificial lights in the area to help 219 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.960 someone making that trek in the dark. That's one reason Rob Parr and his 220 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.519 dad were about to give up searching for the remains. The other boy in 221 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.119 the hunting party told them about the sun was set, it was going to 222 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.440 be too dark to find anything and difficult to get back to their campsite even 223 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:10.920 if they did find her. It's worth noting that The amount of moonlight Rob 224 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.160 and his dad had that night would have been similar to what was in the 225 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.880 sky in late August or early September nineteen seventy six when Patti Otto vanished. 226 00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:29.359 But in nineteen seventy six, the ground would have been dry. Just a 227 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:32.839 few days before Rob and his dad went hunting in these hills. In nineteen 228 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:37.759 seventy eight, a thirty minute cloudburst thoroughly soaked the ground in Umatilla County, 229 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:42.799 a few miles west of Findlay Creek. A newspaper account described a wall of 230 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:49.519 mud more than six feet high that had accumulated in one spot. We had 231 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.240 to wonder if some of the rain that saturated Umatilla County also spilled over into 232 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:59.720 Union County, helping to uncover the Jane Doe's remains that were waiting to be 233 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:06.640 covered. Regardless of how it happened, pieces of her skeleton were plainly visible 234 00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:12.160 when the hunters arrived at that spot in late August nineteen seventy eight. Now 235 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:18.640 I need to let you in on a truly astonishing coincidence regarding that hunting party. 236 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:23.720 The crazy part of this is that's in nineteen seventy eight, when I 237 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:30.799 told you I was dating that guy in two thousand and six. That's Patty's 238 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:37.480 daughter Suzanne talking. It's the grandson of the hunter, and I would not 239 00:23:37.599 --> 00:24:04.279 know that until now, As you heard Suzanne start to explain. Before the 240 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.880 break, she started dating a man named Gary Times. In two thousand and 241 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:12.799 six, they got married and the woman who had once been dallas Otto became 242 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:29.079 Suzanne Times. Gary Times's stepfather is Rob Parr, who you've heard talking about 243 00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:34.880 finding the Finlay Creek Jane Doe. Rob's dad, Lee Parr, was named 244 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:44.079 in a nineteen seventy eight newspaper article about the discovery of the skeleton. Rob, 245 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.640 who was only eight at the time, wasn't mentioned in the article and 246 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:53.960 he had never talked with his stepsig about that experience. Suzanne looked up the 247 00:24:55.039 --> 00:24:59.359 article after she saw the forensic artists rendering of the Finlay Creek Jane Doe on 248 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:04.039 Facebook in the summer of twenty twenty one. She was shocked to see the 249 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:11.480 name Lee Parr in the article. Le par is my husband's grandpa, and 250 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.200 I'm like, Gary, did your grandpa ever mentioned you guys that he found 251 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:21.440 a body. Long before she met Susanne, Melinda had tried tracking down the 252 00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:26.039 two hunters. Rob's grandfather, Lee Parr, passed away in two thousand and 253 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:30.680 nine, and letters Melinda mailed to the other hunter when unanswered, here's Susanne 254 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.960 again? And how does that not come up in a conversation? I guess 255 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:38.880 it just doesn't. So I tell my husband, I'm calling your dad. 256 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:47.039 He's a correctional officer at the state penitentiary. You know they now all phones 257 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.559 in there, They can their phones. I don't care. I'm calling him. 258 00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.480 Maybe he'll be off work. I don't care. I'm calling him. 259 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.200 I don't care if he's at work. I'm calling him. This is important 260 00:25:55.279 --> 00:26:00.079 right now. I'm like, Rob, did your dad ever mentioned finding a 261 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.559 body in nineteen seventy eight when he was out hunting? And He's like, 262 00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.839 Susanne, how do you know about that? I never told you about that? 263 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:11.920 What do you know about that? Rob? He was like, I 264 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:17.480 was a little kid. I will never forget that. And I'm like, 265 00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:26.400 Rob, I think you found my mom. He's like what He's like, 266 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.079 how did this not ever come up in a conversation? We must have some 267 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:33.680 wild Thanksgiving dinners? Right, I'm like, how does this not come up? 268 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.599 Rob? I'm missing a mother. You find a body when you're a 269 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.440 child, and that never comes up in a conversation that I've never found a 270 00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:44.759 body. Nobody else I've ever noticed found a body. But I'm missing a 271 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:49.039 parents and you found a body. What are the chances that you found my 272 00:26:49.119 --> 00:26:53.519 mother in nineteen seventy eight. He's like, no way, there is no 273 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:59.319 way. If you're finding all this just too incredible to believe. We were 274 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:03.920 right there with you. We asked Melinda Jetterburgh how she felt when she first 275 00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:11.720 learned of that connection. I wish that you could have been in my house 276 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:17.240 when Suzanne, I am to me. Now we had only been I Ami 277 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:22.640 for a day or two, she said, And I'm sure there was an 278 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.480 expletive in this I am. She said, I think my father in law 279 00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:33.880 is the one who found her body. And at first I was speechless, 280 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:40.799 and then it was like, oh my god, oh my god, oh 281 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:44.240 my you know, I could not believe it. So I said, tell 282 00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:48.400 me more. And I said, does Rob mind me calling him? And 283 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:51.119 she said no, it does not. And I had a conversation with him 284 00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:55.799 about it, because you know, I thought, no, there is no 285 00:27:55.880 --> 00:28:00.039 way, there is no way. That's too big of a coincidence, But 286 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:04.920 the way he described the area and what he saw it was as if he 287 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:14.599 was reading this report and telling me what he saw. It was described the 288 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.759 exact same within the report, as far as the skull and the teeth and 289 00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:22.880 the fillings. He could see it all and he remembered, and the fact 290 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:27.279 that he within the week, I think, said I'm going to go back 291 00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:33.039 out and visit that area just to make sure, and he did, and 292 00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:37.160 he was like, m I remember it like it was yesterday. It was 293 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.000 amazing to me to the point that I had to gather the group together because 294 00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.440 I knew and we got on a zoom call so I could tell them because 295 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.160 I knew that they were going to have the same reaction as me that it's 296 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:56.000 just too it's too much. But it absolutely is and there's no way you 297 00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.799 could make it up. The wildest imagination could not make up the twist and 298 00:28:59.799 --> 00:29:03.880 turn Earns and some of these stories. So I just I'm like, well, 299 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:07.720 I just gotta go with it, because you know, you just cannot 300 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:21.079 make up all these connections that are happening between these two cases. Since helping 301 00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:25.880 to form the Finlay Creek Jindo Task Force in twenty nineteen, Melinda had been 302 00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:30.640 posting information about the case online, hoping someone would come forward. She had 303 00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:34.680 been asking people who had lived in the area for years if they remembered any 304 00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:42.839 details that might help point to who the Jaindo could be. I had maybe 305 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:51.519 one or two locals reach out saying, well, when I was in school 306 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:56.680 around that time, I remember so and so stepdaughter went missing, and I 307 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:02.920 would ask questions, Okay, what was her name? What was a family's 308 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:07.759 name. So they would say these things, but then could not give me 309 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.880 a single shred of information to go on to try to find out who that 310 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:23.200 person was. And I have gone through countless newspaper archives around potential missing women 311 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.079 from this area. I've asked my own parents, because they were in their 312 00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:33.079 twenties at the time. I've asked you know, other people who are in 313 00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:37.720 my life who were alive at the time, who remember hearing about the case, 314 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:44.079 but don't remember anybody going missing at the time. And the Oregon State 315 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.000 Police did their due diligence at the time, and we're not aware of anybody 316 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:53.200 in the immediate area who had gone missing either, And so then they branched 317 00:30:53.200 --> 00:31:00.599 out to you know, the Metro area Portland, Idaho. Think one of 318 00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:07.079 the furthest ruleouts that they got was from Kentucky. So they were looking for 319 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:12.559 missing women, and you know, there was an attempt made to rule out 320 00:31:12.559 --> 00:31:21.640 Patty as well, but it was just not done correctly, we don't think. 321 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:26.160 We noted in a previous episode that after the remains were discovered, Patty 322 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.640 Otto's parents flew to the crime lab at Blue Mountain Community College in Pendleton, 323 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:36.200 Oregon to look at the clothes found at the scene. When presented with the 324 00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:38.960 braw and other pieces of garments, they didn't think what they saw was what 325 00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:45.079 Patty was wearing when she vanished. But again, the woman in the grave 326 00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:48.039 may have been wearing more than what was found at the scene, and the 327 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:55.319 shoes may not have belonged to her. Tom and Toots O'Malley both died more 328 00:31:55.319 --> 00:32:00.400 than twenty years ago. Patty's sister, Alice said that not knowing what really 329 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:06.079 happened to her sister haunted them. But it did a lot to see my 330 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:10.440 parents go through. But they went through, and we know we felt how 331 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.359 bad we felt because Patty was my best friend at the time. It wasn't 332 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:17.960 just my sister that we did everything together, But it has the hearts for 333 00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:24.279 a parents losing a daughter not knowing yeah where she's at. And I know 334 00:32:24.359 --> 00:32:29.839 that I still say to the stress, is my mom and dad died jong 335 00:32:31.880 --> 00:32:36.799 Daddy was only sixty years old when he passed away and mom was only seventy, 336 00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.400 And I just think all that stress had a lot to do with it. 337 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:45.839 If the Finlay Creek Jando is their daughter, it means they lost a 338 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.680 grandchild along with Patty. But if the Jane Doo truly isn't their daughter, 339 00:32:51.119 --> 00:32:55.920 so many questions remain. Who is she and who killed her? Other than 340 00:32:55.960 --> 00:33:00.440 the hippie women scene walking up Ruckle Road, we don't have any leads about 341 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:06.920 who the woman could be. Investigators worked with other law enforcement agencies to try 342 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:12.440 to identify her, but nothing panned out. You've heard the Green River Killer 343 00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:16.880 mentioned a couple of times in previous episodes, but his victims were all found 344 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:30.640 about two hundred and fifty miles away in Seattle, Washington's King County. At 345 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.559 the time, there were a couple of men living closer to this area who 346 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:43.559 might have been capable of committing such a crime. One of those men is 347 00:33:43.559 --> 00:33:46.599 a person of interest in a number of other unsolved murders in the area, 348 00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:52.559 including three people who disappeared from Lewis and Idaho six years after Patty vanished. 349 00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:01.119 Although we know who this potential suspect is, he's never been charged with murder, 350 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:06.559 so we won't be naming him. We'll just tell you that police are 351 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:15.079 aware of who he is. The other person is Harry Hantman, who had 352 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:17.960 raped and murdered an eleven year old girl in Washington, d c. In 353 00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:27.639 nineteen sixty nine. Then in nineteen seventy three, he escaped from the mental 354 00:34:27.679 --> 00:34:35.320 institution where he had been confined. While free, for the next twenty years, 355 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:38.519 he lived in this part of the Pacific Northwest under the assumed identity of 356 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:45.280 a dead man, Thomas Dorian, going by the name Dorian Hantman, dated 357 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:50.880 women, got married, and enrolled in classes at several Oregon colleges, including 358 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:59.320 Eastern Oregon State University in La Grand just south of Finlay Creek. He was 359 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:05.159 even arrested for attempted kidnapping while using his alias, and authorities still didn't realize 360 00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:12.679 who he was. In nineteen ninety three, federal marshals finally caught up with 361 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:19.440 Handman after tracking the movements of his wife. Bill Bonk is the US marshal 362 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:23.880 who led the operation to arrest the fugitive. Bonk had tracked Handman to an 363 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:28.559 off the grid cabin he owned in the mountain town of Joseph, Oregon, 364 00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:35.199 about forty miles east of Finlay Creek. The cabin was protected from outsiders like 365 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:42.320 a fortress and appeared to have been outfitted to hold a captive. This is 366 00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.199 Bill Bonk talking about tracking Hamman's wife. We were in Joseph, Oregon, 367 00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:52.039 and he determined that she had made an ATM withdaw in Walla Walla, Washington, 368 00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:58.159 you know, north of pretty much north at where we were at, 369 00:35:58.519 --> 00:36:05.400 right, So we drove up there and we kind of um hooked up with 370 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:09.840 the police. We were looking at hotels looking for a Pacific car and they 371 00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:14.440 knew what Hammond's wife was driving, and we're able to trace her movements to 372 00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:19.920 Lewiston, Idaho. Somebody had spotted the car, the Tapadera motor in and 373 00:36:19.960 --> 00:36:23.559 so I called the Tapadera just to be like, try to be discreet, 374 00:36:23.639 --> 00:36:27.199 just because that's a long drive, right, And we're like, because she 375 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:30.360 still registered death And the manager said, yeah, she just paid for another 376 00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:32.880 night. So we end up you know, we drive there. I mean 377 00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:40.480 it took us like two hours or um. And that's some hilly remember there, 378 00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:45.440 there's some pretty hilly turvy road. Looking over the guards walf to U 379 00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:52.800 imminent death. When we got into town, I saw a blue cavalier kind 380 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:57.280 of drive up the road and I called nine one one said, hey, 381 00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.639 you know, can you just put on APB at tatting noise? And Lewiston, 382 00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:02.239 well, a detective saw the car and he calls in and says, 383 00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:07.400 there's a woman and a dude with a beard and you know, with facial 384 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.760 hair or something like his Holy shit, Hantman had been exceedingly careful to conceal 385 00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.559 his whereabouts. So Bonk was shocked to learn that he was with his wife 386 00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:21.039 in Lewiston. Because everywhere we went, like when I went into that hotel 387 00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:24.239 room at the Tapadera motor Um before the detective called, you know, there 388 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:28.880 was one soda canon the trash, one piece of dental floss. You know, 389 00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:31.360 it's hard to you know, the manager said that they only saw one 390 00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:36.519 person. Basically at that point, we had like eight deputy marshals. We 391 00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.960 had two Idahost State troopers. I think ten Lewiston cops and just kind of 392 00:37:42.119 --> 00:37:45.599 came in and the troopers blocked the road and we just took him down the 393 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:49.519 Gunpoint and up in Hell's Canyon, you know, up along a for a 394 00:37:49.639 --> 00:37:52.960 service road. He has this six or seven acre parcel where he built his 395 00:37:53.079 --> 00:37:57.440 cabin and then he puts up a chainling fence around the whole property, well 396 00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.639 not the whole property, it was kind of U shaped, but from the 397 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:02.559 road and then you know, down on both sides of his property. So 398 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:07.880 and then he had this footbridge that was lined with like animal skulls and stuff. 399 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:13.440 So after we arrested him and his um, his wife, I mean 400 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:22.400 she called the cabin aushwoods in the wilderness. Aushwoods in the wilderness. You 401 00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.159 know. When I went out there in twenty eighteen, I flew into Lewiston 402 00:38:25.199 --> 00:38:29.760 and drove to Joseph, right, so you know, that's like about a 403 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:35.199 one hundred miles ninety five mile drive. I think it's down one twenty nine 404 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:39.840 and then into three in Oregon, one hundred miles. Four cars. I 405 00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:44.400 saw four cars that whole trip, you know, and if you drove that 406 00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:47.639 route, I mean we did. That's some of the most desolate, crazy 407 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:52.000 terrain, like I'm like, oh my god, Like how many bodies could 408 00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:54.880 be over any one of these switch backs or something like, it's just so 409 00:38:55.039 --> 00:39:25.119 isolated, it's just crazy. Next time on Still, I believe that she 410 00:39:27.280 --> 00:39:34.039 did it herself or she definitely got rid of the body, you know what 411 00:39:34.079 --> 00:39:37.159 I mean. I mean she she had something to do with this or did 412 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:50.599 it herself. There is no other ifanderbutt or any other way. Anyone with 413 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:57.000 information pertaining to the disappearance of Patricia Otto should contact the Looston Police Department's tipline 414 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:02.800 at two zero eight to nine eight three nine. Anyone with information pertaining to 415 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.400 the identity of the Finlay Creek Jane Doe, or other information related to that 416 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:14.480 case should contact the Union County District Attorney at DA at Union hyphen County dot 417 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:20.039 org. If you, or anyone you know is a victim of domestic abuse, 418 00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.239 please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven nine nine. 419 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:35.960 Safe Still is a production of The Reporter's Notebook and Grayson Shaw Media. You 420 00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:40.800 can connect with us online at the Reporter's Notebook dot com or via email at 421 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:50.199 info at the Reporter's Notebook dot com. Still was researched, written and produced 422 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:57.599 by Karen Shaw Anderson. Additional research in script editing provided by Christine Hughes. 423 00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:07.480 Original music by Smith Uosso. I'm your host and associate producer Gary Anderson. 424 00:41:08.320 --> 00:41:15.119 Special thanks to everyone who graciously provided interviews and help with our research. We 425 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:20.039 would specifically like to thank the advocates for Patricia Otto and the Finlay Creek Jindoe 426 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:28.360 Task Force. Like follow and subscribe to Still on your favorite podcast platform, 427 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:36.840 and follow us on Facebook or Twitter to join the conversation. Ezekiel thirty four 428 00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:39.960 sixteen. I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the stray, 429 00:41:40.360 --> 00:41:44.880 and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the week.