WEBVTT 1 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:23.199 Hello, and welcome to Western SIV. In this bonus author interview, I 2 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:29.440 sit down with historian Paul Carter and talk about his most recent book, Richard 3 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:34.960 Nixon, California's Native Son. If you're a fan of the show, then 4 00:00:35.479 --> 00:00:40.679 you know I love things that complicate the narrative, and the narrative usually with 5 00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:48.520 Richard Nixon, his Richard Nixon Equal Sign, Watergate, full stop. But 6 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:52.320 the reality is is that Nixon was a lot more than that, and I 7 00:00:52.359 --> 00:01:00.159 think even in light of recent contemporary politics, he deserves a reevaluation for not 8 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:03.400 only how he approached some of his mistakes, but also for some of the 9 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:08.400 really important things that he did both as president and in the years leading up 10 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:15.159 to being president that put our country on a good path. But I'll let 11 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:19.400 the interview speak for itself. As always, the link is in the show 12 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:21.359 notes. If you'd like to pick up a copy of the book, it's 13 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:30.959 it's available right now. And so, without further ado, here's the interview. 14 00:01:38.159 --> 00:01:41.840 So, as I mentioned just moments ago, I'm sitting down here with 15 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:45.680 his story and Paul Carter, and we're going to talk about Richard Nixon because 16 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.120 he has a new book out aptly titled in such a way, and I 17 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:53.959 think, let me tell you at a base level why I like the book. 18 00:01:53.000 --> 00:01:57.480 I like the book because it's not just, you know, Richard Nixon 19 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:02.640 equals signed Watergate, you know, and full stop, and that's where the 20 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:06.000 story ends. I think, you know, as we'll kind of talk about 21 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:08.960 when we get through. As we go through this, there's a lot more 22 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:15.759 to this person than one incident. And I think even his reaction to that 23 00:02:15.840 --> 00:02:19.639 incident tells us a lot about him. As I was reading the book, 24 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.319 I was kind of reflecting a lot on his character as a person. And 25 00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:28.280 that's a lot of what I want to focus on today with the questions. 26 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.919 But I kind of want to start out by getting our setting be goes. 27 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:38.879 Richard Nixon is Californian, but I don't know that the California that Richard Nixon 28 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:45.879 grew up in would be as familiar to people who are listening to this in 29 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:50.759 twenty twenty three, you know, Can you kind of explain to me what 30 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:58.400 California was like when Richard Nixon was young and how different that is from our 31 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:00.039 modern idea, because I think we have to get that to sort of get 32 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:04.919 the ball rolling. Well. First of all. Thank you very much for 33 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:07.680 having me on the show. I really appreciate it. And it's a great 34 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:14.159 opportunity to talk about Richard Nixon's you know, California life. And you have 35 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:17.680 to remember, you know, if you go to southern California now, which 36 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:22.680 is where I live, you can go almost from Santa Barbara to the border 37 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:27.879 of you know, Mexico, and it's just one community after another. But 38 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.759 back when Richard Nixon was born, you know, like Yorba Linda, it 39 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:36.639 was it was a wide open town and nothing more than a wide open town. 40 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:40.479 There was three hundred and fifty people in the city of Yorba Linda when 41 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:46.400 he was seven years old in nineteen twenty. And each of the communities, 42 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.400 whether it be Yorba Linda or Whittier, Pomona, or Pasadena, they were 43 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.560 balkanized in a way where you would have thousands of acres of orchards and wide 44 00:03:55.560 --> 00:04:02.479 open spaces in between those little communities. And the people that inhabited the area 45 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:09.919 at the time were self sufficient and self reliant, and they were really coming 46 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.319 from the East Coast, which was much more populous, and sticking it out 47 00:04:13.319 --> 00:04:17.319 on their own and had like this independence and self reliance about them, and 48 00:04:17.319 --> 00:04:20.879 that was the culture that he was raised in, which was, as you 49 00:04:21.040 --> 00:04:26.800 noted, so different than it is today. Yeah, And I think I 50 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.040 think it's just important too. It's always important to ground ourselves in history and 51 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:34.040 in the historical period because you know, when we say southern California today, 52 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:39.680 people probably picture a very urban environment, and rightly so to a large extent, 53 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:45.920 that's not the case when he's growing up. And this self reliant idea 54 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.920 is something that as I was reading the book, just kept coming up again 55 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:55.759 and again and again in my mind of this person who's raised we would think 56 00:04:55.879 --> 00:04:59.839 more today would probably picture someone in like I don't know, Oklahoma, Kansas, 57 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:04.399 like a small community kind of set tucked away, set back. And 58 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:08.279 his faith is a big part of that, because a lot of people might 59 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:13.199 not realize that, you know, Richard Nixon was born Quaker, and that's 60 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:19.600 that's also extremely unique. So did what did that mean for him growing up 61 00:05:19.639 --> 00:05:25.120 in his early years and how do we see the influence of at least the 62 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:29.399 faith he was raised in throughout his life and maybe even later in life. 63 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:33.720 Well, the Quaker faith was, you know, it was really the center 64 00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:39.639 of the social life for young Richard Nixon growing up, everything revolved around the 65 00:05:39.720 --> 00:05:42.639 church. You know. When he was in Yorba, Lnda, his father 66 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.600 built the first church in town, which was the Quaker church that he attended. 67 00:05:46.959 --> 00:05:49.480 And then when he moved to Woodier in nineteen twenty two when he was 68 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:55.160 nine years old, they ended up out in Eastwoodier, which was out in 69 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.720 the country again, and it was across the street from the eastwood your Friend's 70 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:02.040 church, and everyone would attend church all day on Sundays, you know, 71 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:08.040 there was a morning Sunday school with the morning church service. After then in 72 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:12.680 the afternoon there was Christian endeavor, and then in the late afternoon they had 73 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:16.279 an evening service which was more akin to a traditional service that you might think 74 00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:23.800 of now. And so much of his his lifestyle traits can be seen in 75 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.000 the way he approached church and was raised in the church. You know, 76 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.079 the morning service oftentimes would be a quiet service for you go in and and 77 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:36.879 meditate, and the church when it would make decisions, it would require that 78 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:42.160 it be something. Whatever the decision was, that they talked all the way 79 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.160 through it and then everyone agreed unanimously. So they considered all proposals and really 80 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:51.519 it was a situation where people weren't afraid to think and express themselves and meditate 81 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:58.360 in front of each other and you know, analyze issues, which is what 82 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.240 really Nixon was all about throughout all of his life. Everyone talks about how 83 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:06.240 intelligent he was, and he was, but also being comfortable thinking in front 84 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:13.279 of others and being comfortable exploring the whole range of issues when you're thinking about 85 00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:17.439 what to do. It's all related back to his Quicker church and his quicker 86 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:24.519 beliefs, and really the Quicker religion is that you know, there's a spark 87 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:28.360 of good, a divine light, and every individual, and that every individual 88 00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:34.959 has to make their own decisions and be respectful of others decisions. And it's 89 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:40.759 really interesting how you see that come up throughout his life. Yeah, the 90 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:46.519 deliberative nature of Richard Nixon was something that when I read the chapter and we're 91 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:49.160 talking about his early life and talking about his Quaker faith, and then as 92 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:56.519 we come back in subsequent chapters, especially when he's trying to decide, I 93 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.639 guess I'll say, his own path, his own way. When he's trying 94 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:05.360 to decid do I run for this particular office or don't die He's very willing 95 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:11.720 to solicit advice from the people whose lives matter and who are important to him 96 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.000 in his context, his close family, his friends, his associates. And 97 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.800 he struck me as someone who was willing to listen to the different opinions. 98 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.399 And I saw that coming back from the earlier sections on his faith. So 99 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:33.200 that is one of the I thought was the biggest takeaways from how he was 100 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:37.320 raised to think about an issue not just from one side, but from all 101 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:39.840 sides. I think it's important to remember that with Nixon, especially when we 102 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:46.200 talk about Watergate later on. But I am interested about him as a person. 103 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:50.960 You know, he's a modern roughly a modern figure, so we can 104 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:54.960 talk about how I was as a person in ways that, you know, 105 00:08:54.440 --> 00:09:00.200 I mean, we can't about Charlemagne or I don't know, Caesar Augustus or 106 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:05.080 someone like that's just not possible. But with Richard Nixon, he seems like 107 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.840 to have been a really impressive, especially young person that I remember the part 108 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.799 in the chapter he got his first job out of law school after just one 109 00:09:13.919 --> 00:09:18.440 real brief interview, Like he must have been someone that you walked away with 110 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:22.440 feeling like he's made a very good impression. So I wondered if you could 111 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.320 talk about just his personality a little bit. We can stay in his younger 112 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:33.440 years if we want to to try to keep up the chronological standpoint. If 113 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:39.879 you look at his whole upbringing, you can see that he had he just 114 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:43.120 as you mentioned, he had success after that one interview, and that was 115 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:48.519 really the way he was in his life. He was successful in everything he 116 00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:54.480 participated in, whether it be debate in elementary school. You know, he 117 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:01.200 was eighth grade class president and spoke at his graduation. He was very active 118 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:05.399 in high school and in college he was extremely active and very successful. And 119 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.559 then when he was a young lawyer, in addition to getting his job at 120 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.879 Wingerton Bewley, which was the premier lawferman town. He is so dynamic in 121 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:18.120 so many different ways. In civic opportunities. You know, he's president of 122 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.639 the twenty thirty Club and under his leadership hasn't started largest increases in membership. 123 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:28.679 Ever. He goes to other service clubs and gives talks. He give talks 124 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:35.399 on pre election issues or ballot measures. He is Duke Alumni Association president. 125 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.679 He's on the Woodier College Board of Trustees. You know, he's a program 126 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.320 chairman for the Junior Chamber of Commerce. He teaches a course in practical law 127 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:50.759 a Whittier College. He's really a person that is deeply invested in his community 128 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:56.159 and volunteering his time in addition to his hard work as an attorney and even 129 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.960 having himself appointed as the Woodier Assistant City Attorney and doing that work in addition 130 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:05.240 to his legal work. And during that same period, and you know, 131 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:09.000 when you talk about his legal career and what you're really only talking about from 132 00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:15.320 June of nineteen thirty seven until December of nineteen forty one, so it's really 133 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:18.279 about three and a half year or four and a half years, and it's 134 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.320 incredibly busy and successful. He went and even went into the frozen orange juice 135 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:28.360 business, which in the nineteen thirties was a pioneering endeavor. But he you 136 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:35.360 see a person that's extremely active and extremely engaged in his community and very very 137 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.519 hard work and in diligent and I think he is civically minded. And I 138 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:46.320 want to draw this distinction here because I don't think there's this sense that I 139 00:11:46.320 --> 00:11:50.679 think sometimes comes out from Richard Nixon of this you know, very sort of 140 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.080 this image of this variation, you know, let's say, shady, almost 141 00:11:54.080 --> 00:12:01.519 machiavellian political worker. And I don't get the sense in these these earlier chapters 142 00:12:01.559 --> 00:12:05.440 when you were talking about his commitment to civic life. I don't get the 143 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:11.600 sense that this was a box checking sort of ambition driven commitment. In other 144 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:16.679 words, he wasn't simply doing that delay the groundwork so that he could say 145 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:18.720 that he did all these things when he ran for office. I got the 146 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:26.120 sense that he really felt passionately about being connected to civic life and his community. 147 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:30.840 Do you agree? Could you give me an example? That's what I 148 00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:33.399 came away with. I absolutely agree. And in fact, if you look 149 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:39.679 at his goals that he wrote when he was in the eighth grade, he 150 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:43.080 wrote out what he wanted to do in life, and he basically wrote out 151 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.240 that he wanted to graduate from when you're high school and where your college, 152 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:50.360 and go to law school and become an attorney so that he could be of 153 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:56.960 some good other people. And he basically lived that goal throughout his life. 154 00:12:56.600 --> 00:13:03.399 And when he was in high school, he started doing a debate on a 155 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:09.360 competitive level, and he would participate in like the constitutional law rahtorical contests that 156 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:13.120 were put on by the Los Angeles Times, and he really studied the Constitution 157 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:18.480 in preparing for those competitions, and he came to the determination that the Constitution 158 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.799 was the finest document struck by the hand of man. And between his desire 159 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.840 to want to be as some good of the people and his high regard for 160 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.919 the Constitution, you see that this is really something in eight with him, 161 00:13:33.960 --> 00:13:39.960 within him that he wants to he wants to work on behalf of others. 162 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:45.039 If you even look at when he's at Whittier College. Now, Richard Nixon 163 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.240 was known to be very talented musically, and so I'm sure that he was 164 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:54.240 very rhythmic, but he was not known to be someone that would go out 165 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.879 and dance and like to dance. And when he was at Whittier College, 166 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.840 he was a senior. What are your College didn't allow dancing, and they 167 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:05.759 were firmly against dancing. There had been a guy in town that was a 168 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:07.919 bank teller and he tried to start a movement to allow dancing, and the 169 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.000 president of whiti Your College was so incensed with him that he hadn't fired from 170 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.399 his job, and then they ran him out of the church. And then 171 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.440 along comes Nixon in his senior year, and he persuades the school and the 172 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.559 board of trustees to allow dancing, even though he's really not someone that is 173 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:28.759 into dancing himself, but he knows that his fellow students want to do it. 174 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:31.519 He knows it's quite frankly and the best interests of the school to allow 175 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.080 it on a local level because the students will go elsewhere and dance. And 176 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:41.159 it was it's an example of how he's doing something, that he's doing it 177 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.639 for others when he doesn't even have a very you know, it's not like 178 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:50.720 he grew up a dancer. Yeah, And the point about his reverence for 179 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.679 the Constitution, I think is incredibly important, especially when we come back and 180 00:14:54.679 --> 00:15:03.480 evaluate him later on. But after the end of World War Two, Nixon 181 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.480 runs for office for the first time, I believe in nineteen forty six in 182 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:13.080 the book, and the takeaway that I got from this section as I was 183 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.639 reading it was, I just kept thinking over and over again, here is 184 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.200 one of these people, one of these human beings who just is unwilling to 185 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:31.320 lose, and he is going to work so hard to really pull what is 186 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:35.440 you know, maybe serious upset, but he is he's able to just outwork 187 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.679 all of his all of his contemporaries. I wonder if you agree with that, 188 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.480 and if you could maybe expand on it. So that was that was 189 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:54.000 what I felt I was reading it. He absolutely worked and earned that that 190 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.759 victory. And you know, the common perceptions of Nixon are that, you 191 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.480 know, he always wanted to be a Northeasterner, and he wanted to be 192 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.320 part of the whole Northeastern establishment, and that he had a chip on his 193 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:10.559 shoulder because he couldn't he couldn't go to Harvard or Yale, and he went 194 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:12.840 to a Whittier instead, And that he wanted to get a job on a 195 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.799 New York law froom after graduating from Duke, and he couldn't get an offer, 196 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.720 so he had to return home to lowly Whittier or bitter and disappoint it. 197 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.519 And it's just nonsense. And this campaign in nineteen forty six is a 198 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.639 perfect example of that. First of all, Richard Dixon was offered a job 199 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.000 when he graduated from Duke from a Los Angele, a New York law froom, 200 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.519 and he turned it down. But if you look at his service in 201 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.639 the at the end of World War Two, he's negotiating the termination of war 202 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:45.120 contract between big business and the government, and he's in New York City. 203 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:51.080 He's at Lower Manhattan doing it. And he's so successful that he's soon negotiating 204 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.480 the termination of contracts within five hundred miles in New York City. And many 205 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:57.639 of the men he served in the South Pacific before that with were successful businessmen 206 00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.879 in New York City. Probably could have written his own ticket in New York 207 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:07.119 City when the war ended and just stayed back there where he was already living 208 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.279 at the end of the war. Instead, he chose to come back to 209 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:15.440 Whittier. And if you look at Jerry vorheis who was the congressman that he 210 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.000 took on. He was a five term incumbent Democrat. He was voted as 211 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.920 having the safest the third safest seat in the House Representatives, and he was 212 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:29.319 voted best congressman west of the Mississippi. The Republican Party had taken him on 213 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:34.400 in the prior elections and lost every time and basically washed their hands of the 214 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:40.599 race against Jerry Orheast because it was a losing proposition. But Nixon comes out 215 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:45.319 and there was a group that was called the Committee of One hundred that formed 216 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.119 to try and find a candidate that could run against Jerry Vorheas, and it 217 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:55.400 was basically primarily composed of people from Whittier and some from Pomona and also Pasadena 218 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.319 because the district spread out that throughout that whole area. And they selected Nixon 219 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.079 as their candidate, and he did an audition for it and wanted to run. 220 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:10.319 And once he decided to take that on, he was just unfailing in 221 00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:15.319 his work ethic and nobody really thought that he had a chance, and he 222 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.400 just went. You know, he had coffee meetings where he would go to 223 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:23.200 different people's houses and communities and meet for coffee. He went and he called 224 00:18:23.240 --> 00:18:27.119 on all the newspapers in the district and by the end of the campaign, 225 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.920 you know, twenty six of the newspapers in the district endorsed him, and 226 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.759 he challenged Vorheast to five debates. He beat him in each of the five 227 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.759 debates. And these were debates where you know, a thousand people would show 228 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:44.160 up and they'd have to put speakers in the parking lot for people to be 229 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:47.599 in the overflow crowd to hear, which you don't even hear of people that 230 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:51.519 interested today being involved in a congressional race, are interested in a congressional race, 231 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:56.319 And it was just sheer, hard work and campaigning, and he ended 232 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.599 up even beating Jerry Vorheast and Jerry Vorhees's hometown and Diamond Bar, And it 233 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:04.119 was just, like you pointed out, that hard work they carried the day. 234 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.160 Yeah. And so then you know, after, you know, serving 235 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:17.960 successfully in Congress, he winds up, maybe rather unexpectedly, being selected to 236 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:25.440 be running mate for Eisenhower. That's maybe not expected, But I'm curious as 237 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.480 to you know, what was the thought process that went into Richard Nixon being 238 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:34.200 chosen as the most I mean them of certainly the running made of the most 239 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.440 famous general to come out living general to come out of World War Two? 240 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.440 And what did Nixon bring to the table that made him a good choice. 241 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:52.119 When Nixon was elected in nineteen forty six to Congress, he then ran for 242 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:56.680 reelection, and back in those days, you could do what was called cross 243 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:00.839 filing, so a Republican could run in the Democrat primary and Democrat could run 244 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:03.960 in the Republican primary, and that was a typical thing that the candidates would 245 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:11.559 do. So he actually won re election in nineteen forty eight, by carrying 246 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.680 the Democrat vote, and it gave him an opportunity where he didn't have to 247 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.519 campaign his heart in nineteen forty eight because he really had no significant challenger. 248 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.319 And at that time he was on the House on American Activities Committee, and 249 00:20:25.359 --> 00:20:27.519 you have this whole issue of Alger Hiss and his testimony in front of the 250 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.160 committee and whether or not he had perjured himself, which Richard Nixon proves that 251 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:42.119 Algier Hiss had perjured himself and apparently had been providing information to the Soviet Union 252 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.880 or at least been a supporter of the Communist Party in America, which up 253 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:52.839 until that point really was not a big issue. The bigger issue in like 254 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:59.680 nineteen forty six was running for or providing for GI benefits and dealing with the 255 00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:04.799 poppylation explosion and dealing with the housing crunch. And so that whole issue of 256 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:11.519 the alger His case really brought Nixon to the national prominence. The Republicans lost 257 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:14.960 control of the House, and Richard Nixon was faced with do I stay in 258 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.279 the House of Representatives in nineteen fifty or do I try and move on to 259 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:25.000 the United States Senate. Sheridan Downey was the sitting Democrat senator from California, 260 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:30.960 and Nixon decided to challenge him in the general election. Helen g. Hagen 261 00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:37.319 Douglas was also a congresswoman from southern California in a neighboring district, and she 262 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.200 decided to challenge Sheridan Downey on the Democrat ticket. She got into such a 263 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.880 nasty fight with Sheridan Downey that he ended up withdrawing from the race, and 264 00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:51.359 there was a tremendous amount of fighting on the Democrat side, and Richard Nixon 265 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:55.240 came in and most of the Democrats supported him in that race, and he 266 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.680 ended up winning that Senate race in nineteen fifty and the largest landslide of any 267 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.519 Senate candidate in the country, which really brought him to national prominence and showed 268 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:11.839 how strong he was as a candidate, which put him in Eisenhower's you know 269 00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:18.079 scopes, so to speak. Then they went and they had the convention, 270 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:22.519 because you also had Earl Warren was the governor of California, and the delegates 271 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:29.039 really supported Nixon and Eisenhower at the fifty two delegation or fifty two convention, 272 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.039 and all of this together with also you know, general Eisenhower was older at 273 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:38.200 the time, maybe not compared to today's age of presidents, but back in 274 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.079 those days he certainly, you know, had already had basically a career and 275 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.000 was a hero of World War Two. And so Nixon brought youth, in 276 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:55.039 vigor and political skills and an incredibly strong work ethic to the ticket. That 277 00:22:55.200 --> 00:23:00.599 was all very appealing to General Eisenhower. And I think what's interesting then is, 278 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:07.240 obviously Eisenhower emerges victorious Eisenhower and Nixon and win the election. And Eisenhower's 279 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.480 of course gonna win reelection. As I'm sure everyone who's listening to this knows, 280 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:22.039 but most vps throughout American history are relatively forgettable. Relatively speaking, they 281 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.799 don't do much other than potentially try to use the office as a stepping stone 282 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:33.039 in most cases, to succeed to the presidency. At some point, I 283 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.359 was struck by how different Nixon was in this role, that he seemed to 284 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:45.200 see this position as a position from which he could do genuine good right now, 285 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.079 not waiting for his turn, so to speak. And one another the 286 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:53.319 other areas that I found it particularly interesting, and I'm guessing some listeners will 287 00:23:53.359 --> 00:24:00.079 be surprised by this, but by his civil rights work. Most people probably 288 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:06.519 know him as sort of the law and order presidential candidate from the seventies, 289 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:11.039 but his role in the fifties is very different, and I thought fascinating. 290 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:17.079 So I was wondering if you could talk about that for a second. Nixon 291 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:25.599 always had from his youngest days a very open mind towards civil rights, you 292 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:30.440 know, he he he would talk about how as a young man growing up 293 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:34.119 in a quicker church, there was never any talk of any prejudice or holding 294 00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:41.599 anything against anybody based on the color of their skin or even the there's you 295 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.960 know, whether it was a male or a female. And when he was 296 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.640 at you know, what are your college? And he he was one of 297 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.880 the guys that formed a new society to compete against the existing Franklin's. He 298 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.279 had a teammate on the football team with him that was an African American, 299 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:03.480 and he invited him to join their new Orthogonian organization. And when he was 300 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.160 in World War Two in the South Pacific fighting with his fellow servicemen against the 301 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:14.839 Japanese, he was really with a melting pot of people, and you know, 302 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.960 they were Italians, Mexicans, Irishmen, all different people, and he 303 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.839 reflected on how he really saw that everyone was equal and worked together, and 304 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:32.279 he didn't view he viewed racial issues as a moral problem in addition to a 305 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:41.519 legal problem, and he didn't view race relations as a political issue in terms 306 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:45.160 of saying that it was a Democrat or Republican issue. He always looked at 307 00:25:45.160 --> 00:25:48.960 it as a moral issue and what was right and what was wrong. And 308 00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:55.559 so he always was a proponent of advancing the rights of all people. And 309 00:25:55.599 --> 00:26:02.559 he did that as in his services vice president by meeting Martin Luther King Junior 310 00:26:02.599 --> 00:26:08.720 when he was in Ghana recognizing its independence and proposing along with Eisenhower and helping 311 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:12.759 support the nineteen fifty seven Civil Rights Act and really pushing that through, and 312 00:26:12.839 --> 00:26:19.200 interestingly in terms of women's rights. When Richard Nixon was the elected Vice president, 313 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:25.000 one of the duties of the vice president was to deliver the different proclamations 314 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:30.599 and resolutions that are passed by the various states to the Senate floor. And 315 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.640 so he had a lady in his office that had been with him from his 316 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.880 Senate years, and he gave her the duty of delivering these proclamations and resolutions 317 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:41.400 to the Senate floor, and when she went to do it, the Senate 318 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.759 Sergeant at Arms told her the job had to be done by a man, 319 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.279 and so she came back to the office and she told that to Nixon, 320 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:51.319 and he got it from his desk, and he walked down to the Senate 321 00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:55.480 chamber and he told the Senate Sergeant at Arms that Loie Gaunt was the woman 322 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:59.440 from his office that he assigned the task, she was capable of performing the 323 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:02.599 task, that she was going to be performing that task from that day forward, 324 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:07.599 which she did. And so he really conducted himself in a way where 325 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:12.359 he stood for equality of all people. And I think a lot of this 326 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:17.839 is also just we talked about it at the beginning, but his willingness to 327 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:23.440 be deliberative, to listen to different people of different sides and come to what 328 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:30.200 was in many ways sort of a natural conclusion about the capabilities of different individuals 329 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:34.799 who are more than able to perform these tasks. This jumps forward a little 330 00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:40.000 bit, but as you were talking, I was remembering one of my favorite 331 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.000 Nixon anecdotes to talk about, and again does nothing to do with Watergate, 332 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:52.920 is actually when he's president after the Kent state shootings that happened because and a 333 00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:56.599 lot of people don't know this, but he went out. There were massive 334 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:03.440 protests in Washington after words, and he left the White House, went down 335 00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:11.640 and spent really an entire overnight sitting with the protesters and listening to their complaints. 336 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:17.440 I mean, that's just crazy. You can't imagine a president nowadays doing 337 00:28:17.480 --> 00:28:21.119 that. That would be bananas. I mean, it's very different than some 338 00:28:21.200 --> 00:28:25.160 of the images that we get, But I see this as sort of a 339 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.319 consistent character trade. Wouldn't you agree? Oh? Absolutely? And I also 340 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.359 agree with you that people would look at it as bananas. And you know, 341 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:40.079 the media really didn't know how to even deal with what he was doing, 342 00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:44.559 and they almost kind of portrayed as him dissembling in front of their very 343 00:28:44.599 --> 00:28:49.200 eyes, whereas it wasn't that at all. It was him recognizing the humanity 344 00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:53.160 of the situation and wanting to, you know, connect with the people and 345 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:57.960 let them know that he was interested in how they viewed things, and he 346 00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:03.759 was interested in sharing with them how he viewed things. And it was extremely 347 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:08.359 human of him to do that, and it really was reflective of the way 348 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:15.200 he looked at life. And you know, another example of him having this 349 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:18.400 willingness to take a look at different viewpoints that he might not agree with. 350 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:23.119 You know, he grows up as a Quaker. The Quakers generally are pacifists 351 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:33.279 and they don't subscribe to participating in war or armed conflict. And although historically 352 00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:37.319 we have had many Quakers, you know, like Nathaniel Green was in George 353 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.119 Washington's army and he was a Quaker, I mean, he was a general 354 00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:45.119 in George Washington's army. But Richard Nixon, as a Quaker, volunteers for 355 00:29:45.240 --> 00:29:49.799 service during World War Two, and in the nineteen sixties, you know, 356 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.720 we still have conscription, we had Vietnam going on, and he heard about 357 00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.160 this proposal by a guy named Martin Anderson, which was to have an all 358 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:04.400 voluntary military really didn't agree with it, but he thought it was interesting conceptually, 359 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:08.480 and so when he became president, he appointed a study group to analyze 360 00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:14.880 it, and he even appointed a high ranking military person to oversee it that 361 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:18.200 he thought probably would disagree with the whole idea. And they looked at it, 362 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.920 they studied it, they analyzed it, they really dug into it, 363 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.519 and they ultimately concluded that an all voluntary military force was in our country's best 364 00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:33.039 interests and recommended that to the president, and then he endorsed their decision, 365 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.640 and he brought us the all voluntary military that we now have and ended conscription. 366 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:40.519 And it started off as an idea that he was not in favor of, 367 00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:47.319 but it shows you that ability to fully analyze issues and bring them to 368 00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:52.400 our country. Yeah. I think that sort of deliberative quality is just it's 369 00:30:52.519 --> 00:30:57.240 not something, at least in contemporary politics that is oftentimes seen as a strength 370 00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.400 anymore. If you are debating something, you know, oftentimes that's scene as 371 00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:08.039 what flip flopping or being you know, wishy washy. But for Nixon, 372 00:31:08.079 --> 00:31:12.440 it really was one of his key strengths, at least in my opinion. 373 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:17.039 Let's go back to the nineteen sixty election, because I think that tells us 374 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.160 a little bit more about him as well, because so he cruises through the 375 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:23.680 Republican primary, no problem there, and then he's going to face as we 376 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.240 know, John F. Kennedy. All right, John F. Kennedy comes 377 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:33.119 to the race with baggage, some personal baggage, some things that you know, 378 00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:37.160 some people around Nixon are saying we should take advantage of this, and 379 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:41.680 he doesn't want to do it, though, And I thought that episode was 380 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:47.359 really interesting because it told us a lot about Nixon that, again, I 381 00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:55.599 don't think jives with the off presented view of Nixon as the political manipulator, 382 00:31:56.119 --> 00:32:00.000 as the guy for which there is no boundaries and is willing to spy an 383 00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.319 opponents and so on and so forth. That's not That's not the guy who's 384 00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:07.920 in nineteen sixty up against JFK. So I was hoping you could talk about 385 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:15.119 that for a second. Richard Dixon, his core belief was that when it 386 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:19.680 comes to running for office, the boys seek office to be somebody, and 387 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.279 men seek office to do something. And so he wasn't the type of person 388 00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:28.079 that says I want to grow up and be president to be president. He 389 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:34.880 wanted to attend the office to accomplish things. And because of the way he 390 00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:40.880 viewed political office and he viewed work, he didn't believe in politics that you 391 00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:45.279 should make personal attacks on people. He believed that you could attack them rightly 392 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:51.640 for their policy beliefs and their voting record, for example. But like with 393 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:55.119 John Kennedy, John Kennedy had a lot of back issues and had been in 394 00:32:55.200 --> 00:33:00.920 traction and had you know various treatments through the nineteen fifties. Nixon was quite 395 00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.559 well aware of because he visited John Kenny in the hospital. He was pretty 396 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:09.960 friendly with him. And he also knew that John Kenny's quick Catholic religion was 397 00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:15.279 an issue in the nineteen sixty campaign, but he absolutely forbade people from making 398 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:22.359 any issue out of John Kennedy's health or his religious beliefs because those were not 399 00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:28.359 policy issues. And it's interesting because when John Kennedy was in the primary against 400 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.920 Lendon Johnson, he made a big issue of Lyndon Johnson's prior heart issues, 401 00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:37.079 and so Kennedy was willing to do something and Nixon wasn't willing to do the 402 00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:43.640 same thing because he did not believe that it was appropriate to attack somebody on 403 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:47.519 personal issues. He felt that you have to separate personal issues from policy issues 404 00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:54.920 when it comes to running, and he really showed that in that campaign. 405 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:59.200 And people have attacked him for his various campaigns, but if you actually look 406 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.200 back at those campaigs, he never did engage in the personal attax. He 407 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:08.159 always stuck to policy. Yeah, and then the boy, wouldn't that be 408 00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:13.000 a breath of fresh air? Nowadays? Is things have changed a little bit 409 00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:16.719 if you're not aware. But so he's not going to do the personal attacks 410 00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:22.760 and he's trying to do something Nixon in nineteen sixty that's hard if you look 411 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:28.920 back over American political history, which is he's trying to maintain power with one 412 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:34.320 party, passing it off from one president who's served two terms to someone who's 413 00:34:34.360 --> 00:34:38.119 going to serve another. That's hard. It doesn't happen very frequently in American 414 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:45.079 politics. So what is Nixon's strategy then? Going into this nineteen sixty campaign. 415 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:52.280 He really felt that if he campaigned against all or in all fifty states, 416 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:53.840 that he would carry the day. And a lot of people think that 417 00:34:53.920 --> 00:35:00.360 he made a miscalculation by making a promise to campaign in all fifty states because 418 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:06.599 it spread him too thin in trying to make sure to cover all fifty states 419 00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:10.400 rather than cover states that he needed to spend more time in. But one 420 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:16.039 thing that is really interesting about the nineteen sixty campaign, especially in comparison today, 421 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:22.159 is and it really is reflective of Nixon and his idea of service over 422 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:29.000 self. Once John Kennedy won, and by the way John Kennedy wins, 423 00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:37.559 what is the closest election in our history, and there was actual evidence of 424 00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:44.320 fraud, and especially in Chicago and Texas that was done in favor of the 425 00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:49.119 Democrat Party. There was an author named Earl Mozo who was a reporter for 426 00:35:49.159 --> 00:35:52.280 the New York Carol Tribune, and he started doing a twelve part series talking 427 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:57.920 about the election fraud that he personally was uncovering. And he had affidavits and 428 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:04.599 different proof demonstrating the thousands of votes that had been miss tallied. And we're 429 00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.599 talking about an election that was so close that if you change one vote per 430 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.960 precinct it changes the outcome of the election. So this idea of thousands of 431 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:20.039 votes really is a substantial issue. And Eisenhower wants Nixon to challenge the election 432 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:27.119 results. Eisenhower's cabinet offers to raise the money to undwrite the legal challenge, 433 00:36:28.000 --> 00:36:34.079 and Richard Nixon called up Earl Maso and he invited him to lunch in early 434 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.280 December, and Earl Maso spent about forty five minutes outlining all this election fraud 435 00:36:38.320 --> 00:36:42.519 that he had uncovered, and Richard Nixon told him, that's really interesting, 436 00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:46.719 And then Richard Nixon spent about forty five minutes talking about democracy in America and 437 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:51.079 how there was all these fledgling democracies throughout the world, that we're looking to 438 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:58.320 America as a beacon of light for those countries pursuing democracy, and that America 439 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:01.960 doesn't have fraudulent election, and that he needed Earl Maso to kill his twelve 440 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.519 part series and that he wasn't going to challenge the election. And Earl Maso, 441 00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:09.599 you know, basically, he said, I thought it was a goddamn 442 00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:14.559 fool and he refused to kill the stories. So Nixon went to his publisher 443 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:19.400 and had his publisher kill the stories. And then Nixon had the you know, 444 00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:22.320 if you think about Mike Penson, what he went through in the last 445 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:29.400 election, Richard Nixon was in Mike Pence's situation and had to certify the election 446 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:34.199 in favor of John Kennedy because he said, it's in our country's best interest 447 00:37:34.360 --> 00:37:38.079 to not have you know, a week president for a year when we're in 448 00:37:38.079 --> 00:37:43.199 the Cold War against the Soviet Union and too many countries depend on our democracy. 449 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.960 And it really is reflective of this person who always grows up with the 450 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.920 idea of service over self and all of his community service, and like you 451 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:57.880 had mentioned earlier, he wasn't just checking a box to obtain an office later. 452 00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:00.639 It was a way he was living his life, and he believed it 453 00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.840 was in our country's best interest, although it probably wasn't in his best interest, 454 00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:09.400 and he undertook the high road, which would be interesting to see today 455 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:19.639 on many levels. Yeah, sometimes things change over time. But I thought 456 00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.800 it was an interesting you know, if you really and you make a great 457 00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:28.760 point, if you really want to look at an election where there's real evidence 458 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:32.599 of fraud, the nineteen sixty election is where you need to go and no 459 00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:40.199 further. And he's but he makes this calculation that listen, the overall health 460 00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:46.119 of the United States is more important than anything that I would do right now 461 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:50.199 as president of the United States. And he takes a pass on it. 462 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.280 And I think that tells us a lot about him. And when we come 463 00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:54.760 back to water Get at the end, I'll just ask about that. But 464 00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.960 he walks away, He does not challenge the election. So what does he 465 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:07.199 do after that? He returns to southern California and he starts practicing law. 466 00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:14.559 And there's an interesting dynamic that went on through California during the period of Nixon's 467 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:21.719 vice presidency, which is that in terms of the powerful California politicians. You 468 00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:25.320 have Earl Warren who's Governor of California. You have Goodie Knight, who's his 469 00:39:25.400 --> 00:39:31.960 lieutenant governor, and you have Bill Nolan who is the Senator from San Francisco, 470 00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:37.239 and they're all strong Republicans. And Bill Nolan's family, I believe it 471 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:43.280 in the San Francisco Chronicle and powerful California families. Well, Richard Nixon's elected 472 00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:47.239 vice president, Earl Warren is appointed to the Chief Justice of the United States 473 00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:53.960 Supreme Court, Goodie Knight is elevated to the governorship, and Bill Nolan is 474 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:59.480 President of the Senate. By nineteen fifty two, or as a result of 475 00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:06.239 the nineteen five two elections. In nineteen fifty eight, the Republicans were no 476 00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:08.119 longer in control of the Senate. Bill Nolan was no longer President of the 477 00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:14.000 Senate and he wanted to advance his career, so he decided to run against 478 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:20.880 Goody Knight for Goody knight'sublic governorship rather than defend his seat. Goodie Knight decided 479 00:40:20.920 --> 00:40:24.719 to run for Bill nolan Senate's seat, and the voters did not appreciate the 480 00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:30.519 swapping of seats there and the Republican Party fractured over what these guys were doing, 481 00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:35.760 and it allowed the Democrats to sweep all the offices in California in terms 482 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.760 of the state wide offices. And so then you have Nixon lose two years 483 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:44.440 later to Kennedy and he returns home in January of nineteen sixty one to start 484 00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:49.440 practicing law, and the Republican Party comes to Richard Nixon and says, you're 485 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:53.119 the most powerful Republican in California. You're the only guy that can heal this 486 00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:57.719 party in this state, and we need you to run against Pat Broun for 487 00:40:57.800 --> 00:41:05.519 governorship and in doing so, unite our party. But really what is fascinating 488 00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:08.559 about that election is Richard Nixon said it's the one time in his life that 489 00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:15.039 he ran for office for the office and not for to accomplish something. And 490 00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:19.559 he was doing it to help hill the party and to obtain the office. 491 00:41:19.960 --> 00:41:25.000 And in doing it, because of the voting registration in California, the Democrats 492 00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:34.320 had about a million dollar or a million voter increase over the Republicans. And 493 00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:37.920 so the only way Richard Nixon can win is if he gets every single Republican 494 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:42.639 to vote for him and a million Democrats in nineteen sixty two, that John 495 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.679 Birch Society is a big issue in California. And the leader of the John 496 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:53.840 Birch Society basically despises Eisenhower and is highly critical of Eisenhower, and Richard Nixon 497 00:41:54.280 --> 00:41:59.480 is very fond of General Eisenhower, and he's very opposed to the John Birch 498 00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.599 Society. And the only way that he can unite the Republicans is if he 499 00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:08.320 doesn't make the John Birch Society an issue. Instead, he declares that he 500 00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:14.599 will not support a new Republican running for office is affiliated with the John Birch 501 00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:16.920 Society, and that Republicans had to make a decision that they were either going 502 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:21.239 to be Republicans with him or they were going to be with the John Birch 503 00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:24.960 Society. And so he undertook a course where it was impossible for him to 504 00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:29.920 unite the party, but he did it because it was the right thing to 505 00:42:29.960 --> 00:42:32.559 do morally, and he did it knowing what the outcome was going to be, 506 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.920 and the outcome was that he lost. And it's again it goes back 507 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:45.639 to this whole idea of putting the population in the state of California first, 508 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.679 where it was in everyone's best interest to not be a proponent of the John 509 00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.519 Birch Society, and he refused to do it. Yeah, so just another 510 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:58.519 example of him putting sort of the best needs of the population at a whole 511 00:42:58.719 --> 00:43:02.440 ahead of himself. I'm in time again. Well we're getting close on time. 512 00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:07.159 But I do want to jump forward and ask a Watergate question or two. 513 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:14.760 And I'm not as much interested in sort of the machinations of what happened 514 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:20.519 up to and leading to the Watergate scandal. What I'm interested in, and 515 00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:25.159 the question that's always been interesting to me is when we look at Richard Nixon's 516 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.480 legacy, the first word that everybody brings up is, of course Watergate. 517 00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:38.760 But I've always wondered Richard Nixon's decision to resign, which was not necessarily supported 518 00:43:38.760 --> 00:43:45.800 by all of his friends and family. Shouldn't he get some credit for doing 519 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:51.679 that, because again, it strikes me as a decision that I'm not going 520 00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:58.679 to put the nation through a contentious, potentially painful impeachment hearing that I may 521 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.800 win. Instead, I am going to put the needs of the country first 522 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:08.119 and resign. I've always thought that he should get a little bit more for 523 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:12.519 that than he has gotten. But I'm not sure what do you think about 524 00:44:12.519 --> 00:44:19.719 that. It's very interesting because if you look at his presidency in nineteen sixty 525 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.280 eight, our country was so divided. We were at war in Vietnam, 526 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:27.400 and we had people, you know, fleeing to Canada to avoid service. 527 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:34.400 Martin Luther King was assassinated, John Robert Kennedy was assassinated, and Richard Nixon's 528 00:44:34.400 --> 00:44:37.519 elected, but he's not elected on a majority. He's elected on a plurality. 529 00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:43.679 And at no time during his presidency did he have a Republican House or 530 00:44:43.800 --> 00:44:46.719 Republican Senate. Yet. You know, here's the first president to go to 531 00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:52.280 Moscow. He's the first president to sign a nuclear arms reduction treaty. He 532 00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:58.360 ends Vietnam, he does the all voluntary military. He believes that clean error 533 00:44:58.360 --> 00:45:02.199 and clean water birthrights every American citizen. He creates the EPA, and he 534 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.679 introduces the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. All five of the 535 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:12.159 Man Moon missions that landed on the Moon were during the nexton presidency. You 536 00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:16.360 know, he signs Title nine into effect, fundamentally changing women's sports. He 537 00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.719 brings women into government. He quadruples the amount of women in management and government. 538 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:23.920 And he you know, for the first time you have women that are 539 00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:30.239 Secret Service agents and FBI agents and tugboat captains and forest rangers, and he 540 00:45:30.880 --> 00:45:37.400 really opens up the government to women. He tried to appoint Mildred Lilly to 541 00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.239 the United States Supreme Court as the first woman in the American Bar Association voted 542 00:45:40.239 --> 00:45:45.440 at eleven to one to say she's unqualified. She happened to be a Democrat, 543 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:47.719 and she was the longest serving justice on the California Court of Appeal. 544 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:53.320 She was eminently qualified. And he does all of these things, opens China, 545 00:45:54.239 --> 00:46:00.880 and you know, has a tremendous domestic agenda as well, and is 546 00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:06.239 incredibly successful. He wins reelection in basically the second largest landslide in our history, 547 00:46:06.280 --> 00:46:08.840 five hundred and twenty electoral votes, ninety six point six percent of the 548 00:46:08.840 --> 00:46:15.000 electoral college. And then you have Watergate, and the House and the Senate 549 00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:17.920 are opposed to him because he's never had a Republican House or a Senate, 550 00:46:19.800 --> 00:46:24.559 and he knew he couldn't accomplish anything more. And so instead of putting us 551 00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:31.199 through the long docket of Watergate and a fight for his own self interest, 552 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.920 he walks away from it, and what really I find fascinating about him as 553 00:46:36.920 --> 00:46:39.000 an attorney, where people come to me and tell me things all the time, 554 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:43.880 and then I have to go look at the evidence. And if you 555 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.840 look at him, he has this recording system which is recording everything that he's 556 00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:53.039 doing. He knows he has the recording system. He knows what they've said 557 00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:57.119 on the tapes. I'm sure he doesn't remember all of it, but he's 558 00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:00.039 the one that's aware of it all. And see it comes out that he 559 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:04.880 has this taping system. Everyone told him bring the tapes on the White House 560 00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:07.719 lawn, like have a bonfire, destroy everything, and he doesn't. He 561 00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:13.719 refused to. Then the subpoena the tapes, he fights him in court, 562 00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:19.719 but he doesn't destroy anything. He doesn't do anything to hide anything other than 563 00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:22.079 do the court battle. He loses the court battle, then he gives them 564 00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:27.679 the tapes, and the tapes are what are used to then bring the impeachment 565 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:31.079 charges against him. And and that preservation of that information, which you know 566 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:37.320 is not going to be beneficial to you, really shows fundamental honesty above all 567 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.239 else. And then the willingness to say it's in our country's best interest to 568 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:45.079 not have a president on the dock again, you know, for a year 569 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:50.079 in a fight over this. It's just not our best interest with everything going 570 00:47:50.119 --> 00:47:52.840 on in the Middle East, with what was going on with the Soviet Union. 571 00:47:53.280 --> 00:48:00.320 It's again it's service over herself. And it's so fascinating to me that 572 00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:05.559 for so long people have used these things against him to villainize him, when 573 00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:09.320 all of the evidence has been right in front of us as to it actually 574 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:15.400 demonstrating the quality of his character. Yeah, I absolutely agree. You know, 575 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:20.519 what I saw when I was reading, you know, the latter chapters 576 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:27.400 of the book was someone who was behaving consistently throughout his entire life. He 577 00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:31.239 had always put these moral questions first. And the fact that you bring up 578 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:37.440 about the reality is that he could destroy the evidence. That would be probably 579 00:48:38.199 --> 00:48:44.360 the only plausible way that he goes down for this, and he doesn't do 580 00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:50.119 it, And that tells us so much about him as a person. You 581 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:54.079 have to be very committed to honesty to say I'm going to be the first 582 00:48:54.159 --> 00:49:00.760 president to resign the presidency at this point under threat of impeachment, and you 583 00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:05.320 know, that's I think that tells us a lot. But really, you 584 00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:09.639 know, my takeaway from the book was that Richard Nixon, he's he's far 585 00:49:09.719 --> 00:49:14.000 down the list of US presidents often times, but I don't know that that's 586 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:20.159 necessarily fair. And I also think he's done so many other things, not 587 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.079 just as president. He did a lot as president, as you mentioned, 588 00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:27.599 but did a tremendous amount as vice president. He did a tremendous amount both 589 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:30.119 in his time in the House and the Senate, did a tremendous amount for 590 00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:32.800 the for the Party. He did everything, and that I think he should 591 00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:36.800 get some more credit for that. Well, we're running out of time. 592 00:49:36.840 --> 00:49:42.079 Is there anything else that you'd like to add? I find that what's most 593 00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.599 interesting about Richard Nixon is, you know, we have to answer the question, 594 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:50.039 is he a villain that God has just desserts or was he an all 595 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:54.559 American man that had this incredible life but made an incredible miscalculation for which you 596 00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:59.880 know, his legacy has stained and from the evidence that I have seen, 597 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.639 and he is not a villain. And the continued villainization of him really says 598 00:50:04.679 --> 00:50:07.519 more about us as Americans than it does say about Richard Nixon. And we 599 00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:13.280 should really evaluate him and his life in full and all of the accomplishments, 600 00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.639 the ups and the downs. Yeah, in many ways he's a very tragic 601 00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:23.760 figure in sort of even just his arc and his life, where one maybe 602 00:50:24.199 --> 00:50:28.639 mistake, one character flaw was the thing that brought him down in the end. 603 00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:32.719 But I think some reevaluation is important, and I also agree with you. 604 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:37.119 I think sometimes it does say a little bit more about us and how 605 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:43.239 we behave nowadays than anything that Richard Nixon actually did. Well. Thank you 606 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.320 so much for coming on the show. It was a wonderful conversation. Is 607 00:50:46.360 --> 00:50:53.119 a great book, and I have every every desire and belief that is going 608 00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:57.639 to do extremely well. Thank you so much. It's great speaking with you. 609 00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:02.480 I really enjoyed it.