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We're back with another edition of the
Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trashinsky,

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culture editory here at the Federalist.
As always, you can email the show

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at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST.

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Make sure to subscribe wherever you download
your podcasts as well. Today I'm

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on the road. I'm actually in
Savannah, Georgia, beautiful city, but

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was able thankfully to record a conversation
with James Fishback. He is the founder

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and executive director of Incubate Debate,
also the author of a very viral essay

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for our friends over at the Free
Press. It's a fascinating conversation. It's

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a lot of insight into not just
gen Z, but the parents and the

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teachers over in our school system that
are grappling with some of these really deep

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and serios problems. He also has
some good news about the kids about to

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us as they say, So,
I hope you enjoyed this conversation with James

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Fishback. Can you tell us a
little bit about how you ended up founding

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Incubating Debate sort of what led you
to doing that, because I imagine there's

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an interesting story behind it. There
is a dovetails into the article. I

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was a high school debater from two
thousand and nine to twenty thirteen down in

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South Florida. High school debate changed
my life. I had a passion for

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politics, for economics, for foreign
affairs, but didn't really have a way

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to channel that passion. And go
into a tournament every week and reading Milton

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Friedman and talking about trade deals and
minimum wage laws and what was happening in

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Russia. It just it excited me
in a way that had never something I'd

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never done before. So I had
a great time in high school debate.

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I left off to college when I
graduated high school. I came back in

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twenty seventeen and for two years I
was a high school debate Ocean Underserved High

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School in North Miami. And it
was there, emily that I saw that

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high school debate had just become a
shell of its former self. It had

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just been utterly hijacked by this left
wing ideology that was intolerant, that attacked

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free speech, and that the truest
of ironies became anti debate. There were

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certain things, certain arguments you couldn't
say, you couldn't make. So when

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about did you realize that that started
to happen. When do you think it

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hit the high school debate community,
Because we always used to think of the

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campus as very separate from what was
happening in Cape through twelve, and at

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a certain point that's just all started
to bleed together. It's a great point.

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I think there's probably two elements to
how this happened. Two stages.

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The first was likely the twenty sixteen
election, which, as you know,

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Emily unleashed this tribalism where it was
us versus them mentality. If you said

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anything positive or in fact, if
you in any way defended the other side,

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you were a fascist, you were
a racist, you were homophopes,

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so on. And then I think
the other stage also came with the so

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called racial reckoning of twenty twenty and
this sort of diversity, acquity and inclusion

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agenda, and that really creeped into
high school debate. You're absolutely right.

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This has been on the college campus
for a long time. It's been in

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corporate American increasingly. But to see
a thirteen or a fourteen year old girl

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in high school merely mentioned the word
illegal immigrant, and then for the judge,

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as I bring up in the article, for one judge to stand up

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and say that's it, rounds over. You lose. I'm going to talk

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to your coach. I'm going to
give you a nice, stern, humiliating

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lecture that's antithetical to debate and it's
un American. So if you could probably

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a lot of people saw your essay
in the Free Press, but if you

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could just explain to us a little
bit about what you talked about in that

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and then I'm going to ask you
why you think it resonated, because I

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saw that thing everywhere. But if
you could just start a little bit with

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what you conveyed in the essay,
that would be fantastic. Absolutely. The

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essay really focuses on what are called
judge paradigms Emily, and these are online

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statements, their public statements, profiles
that high school debate judges put up on

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a website that's operated by the National
Speech and Debate Association. That website is

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called Tabroom. So when the article
went to press, a lot of these

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paradigms, all of them actually were
still public. A couple have been taken

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down and the screenshots are available on
the internet. But tab room is where

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a high school debate student would go
and look up who their judge is before

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the debate began. So you know, back in the day, you might

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go and read a judge paradigm that
would say, you know what, I

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don't like when you speak three hundred
words a minute, and I'd like for

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you to focus on primary versus secondary
evidence. They might say, I put

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a lot of weight on how you
impact your arguments, which is to say,

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how you show why your argument matters
in the debate. And that's how

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paradigms were for the longest time.
But what these paradigms that I uncovered and

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many others, they just became riddled
with this political and ideological bias that was

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so conspicuous it was almost hard to
believe. And I think that's why the

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article resonated. I think there's a
lot of articles that talk about whether that's

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critical theory or d EI or whatever
it may be in K through twelve or

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in college. But I'd like to
think I save us with humility. I

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like to think I brought the receipts. I brought the actual judge's words,

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which are public to this day,
on what they were telling kids. You

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know, collectively, the judges in
this article judge north of a thousand students

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in just the last couple of years, and then in debate, these things

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act as a social network where you
know, when one's judge tells you you

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can't bring up a legal immigrant in
a round, and then you lose that

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round, all of a sudden,
people start to pick up on something,

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and then you create this self censorship
that just stifles free speech. And I

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think that's why a lot of people
paid attention and shared the article. Of

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course, I'm incredibly honored and humble
that that happened. I'm actually writing a

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follow up piece as we speak right
now for Barrying for the Free Press.

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Yeah. I wanted to ask about
that because I suspect that the response was

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as interesting as the original story,
because it kind of colors the original story

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with more our fleshes out the way
people are thinking about what you describe what's

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happening. So maybe if you could
like preview a little bit of your follow

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up and tell us basically just what
you've heard from Judge's parents students, that'd

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be great. Absolutely, you know
the idiom blow up your phone. I

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had heard it, I knew what
it meant, but I never related to

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it. Emily and my phone quite
literally blew up when this article came out.

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I've heard from everybody. I've heard
from coaches, I've heard from students.

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There's one student in particular, young
woman from actually from South Florida named

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Brianna Watley. She went on Dana
Prina Prino on Fox News and told the

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story that you know, she was
having a debate on President Biden's foreign policy

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track record, and before the round, the judge told her not to bring

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up President Trump. She deemed it
inappropriate. You know, who would have

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thought you can't talk about foreign policy
of a president without having a juxtaposition to

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the previous administration. The coming article
will focus on a couple of things,

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and one of them is the nsda's
response. I reached out six times for

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comment in the lead up to publishing
my article, and I didn't hear back

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once from the NSDA, But they
put out a two page statement thirty six

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hours after the article came out,
and I'll just less, so what's in

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it? Let's talk about what's not
in it. In the face of all

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of these very clear, incontrovertible evidence, right of these judge paradigms being hosted

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on their site, judging at their
tournaments, saying things like, if you're

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white, don't run impacts that primarily
affect people of color. So for Emily,

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for your listeners, that's to say, if you're a white girl from

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Illinois, don't you dare talk about
senseless violence that's afflicting communities in Baltimore or

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DC. That's not your place.
Or the one judge who says, hey,

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if your pro Israel, pro capitalism, or pro police, I'm just

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not going to vote for you,
right. So what is the nsda's response

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in that two page statement to those
judges who judge their tournaments. They do

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not condemn, They did not discipline, and they did not kick them out.

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And I think, more than anything, that tells people something about the

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NSDA that I couldn't even mention in
my article because I can never could have

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predicted their response. I asked for
their comment, and that's what one judge

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told me on the record. So
I'm gonna be talking about in the follow

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up piece, a judge from Kansas
City that what was appalling to him it

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should be really easy for a National
Speech and Debate Association to stand for free

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speech and open debate and to condemn
and to dismiss these judges. And I

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think a lot of people looked at
that and said, okay, to the

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extent that he only brought up a
couple of examples, why was it so

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difficult? Why could they not condemn
and dismiss these judges? And I think

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that tells an even more compelling story
than anything I brought up in my original

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piece. And it's probably useful here
to go back to basics. Some of

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our listeners are certainly very smiled with
high school debate, if they went through

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it themselves, or their children aren't
going through it now, or grandchildren.

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But if you can speak Jims,
what does high school debate mean to students?

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So what Obviously there's the college application
questions, but there's also the personal

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questions. You know, so in
a sort of professional scale, you know

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what this could mean to them going
forward as they apply to college, but

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also personally what does it mean to
them as students, as people who are

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growing up. Absolutely, it's really
easy to focus on the college acceptance angle,

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the scholarship angle. College the path
to college oftentimes runs through high school

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debate for so many kids, not
just directly right, the idea that you

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could get a scholarship to go compete
on a debate team. But the idea

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that your test scores would go up, your ability to demonstrate, to get

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rec and dation letters, those accolades, those awards would certainly stand out to

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the admissions committee a number of these
top universities. So the fact that a

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student would quit debate or would not
see success in debate because of their political

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views would certainly be threatened. But
what's more important than that to me,

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Emily is the fact that these are
kids at the end of the day.

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Now, it's easy to forget that
when they're talking about, you know,

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vat taxes in Europe, or they're
talking about what's happening in Ukraine and Russia,

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or they're talking about, heaven forbid, what's happening at the southern border

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to that one judge. But they're
thirteen fourteen year old kids. These are

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young boys and girls who have mustered
the strength the courage to wake up at

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five thirty am on a Saturday to
put on that shirt that mom ironed and

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that tie that Dad picked up at
the store the night before that he had

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saved up a couple of weeks for
to make sure that you look good,

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to drive you halfway across the county, to send you along your way.

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The idea that a young girl would
walk into that room and not even have

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a shot because she was arguing in
favor of school choice, or she was

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pro life, or she believed that
federalism was something that saved us during this

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pandemic. That is, that's what's
most devastating. So the idea that a

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student would have to either conform or
quit, and then in the process would

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go through this humiliation. I actually
bring up one example near the end of

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the piece of a young girl who
was ridiculed at the twenty eighteen National Speech

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and Debate Association Tournament. She had
made some conservative arguments. According to the

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NSDA, people had said some incorrect
things, of course, and so what

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happened. The other students chased her
around the national tournament at the convention Center

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with shirts that said fuc k Trump, and they belittled her and ridiculed her

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for at on her shirt and for
the clothes that she was wearing. I

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mean, the idea that a young
girl would go through hell because she made

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a conservative argument, and that nobody, no adult, the so called adults

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in the room wouldn't stand up and
say that is not right. That I

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think, more than anything, Emily
speaks to the systemic nature of just how

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intolerant high school debate has become.
And that's just it's sad, it's ironic,

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it's hypocritical, but more than anything, it's Unamerican. And we've got

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and that's why I found it incubate. We've got to bring free speech,

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diversity of viewpoints, and merit back
to high school debate. Children aren't traffic

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around the world every single day.
And now there's a new movie that is

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aimed at raising awareness to a horror
that often goes unseen. It's called Sound

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of Freedom from Angels Studios, and
it's based on a true story. It

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shines a light on even the darkest
of places. After rescuing a young boy

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from ruthless child traffickers, a federal
agent learns the boys sister is still captive

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and decides to embark on a very
dangerous mission to save her. With time

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running out, he quits his job
and journeys deep into the Colombian jungle,

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putting his life on the line to
free her from a fate worse than death.

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It's starring Jim Caviezel, the actor
renowned for his Unforgettable portrayal of Jesus

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and the Passion and Academy Award winner
Miras Sorvino. Directed by Alajandrum on a

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Verde It's rated PG thirteen and again
it is based on a true story.

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Sound of Freedom will be theatrically released
in the United States on July fourth,

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twenty twenty three. You can buy
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daily, so make sure to check
out the website for all of the most

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current information. You can go to
angel dot com slash freedom for all of

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that information. Again, this is
based on a true story. I love

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movies that are based on a true
story. Check out the trailer. It's

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00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,840
online. You can see it just
to get a taste of what you can

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00:13:56,879 --> 00:14:01,919
expect from Sound of Freedom. The
goal is two million people to join in

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theaters the week of July fourth,
to remember all of those children who are

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trafficked every single year. The hashtag
is two million for two million. Sound

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of Freedom explores themes of human trafficking, bravery, and justice. By supporting

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the movie, you can contribute to
raising awareness and propelling a movement to save

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millions of children around the world.
Sound of Freedom is a pay it forward

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initiative. That's a concept or generous
individuals provide free tickets for others to see

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the film. So if you'd like
to pay it forwards that they can pack

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theaters the week of July fourth,
you can do so at angel dot com

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slash freedom. If the price of
the ticket is keeping you from going,

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generous fans have paid it forward tens
of thousands of free tickets for you to

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be able to see. If the
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Get your tickets today at angel dot
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00:15:18,159 --> 00:15:24,799
com slash freedom. I was going
to say, there's two levels to that.

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There's the question about the students,
the questions about the adults, the

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parents and judges, supervisors, teachers, etc. A lot of people have

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opinions about what gen Z and current
teenagers are like. Um In some cases

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that might be informed by their child, their grandchild, of that child's encircle

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of friends. You work with,
you know, a subsection of the population

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that happens to be interested in in
speech to debate. But from that vantage

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point of working with those students are
sort of fears about their censoriousness or intolerance.

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Justify is it just a slice of
that student population that's been kind of

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radicalized and poisoned on this question a
free speech or is this a really widespread

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and now it's just only a small
slice that supports free speech? And what

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is your take on what it looks
like. There's good news and bad news.

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The bad news, unfortunately, is
it is real. It is pervasive,

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this intolerance. I've seen it on
work with thousands of students over the

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last couple of years, all across
Florida, which as you know, is

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a battleground state, really represents both
rural and urban progressive parts like Broward and

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Palm Beach County, and then rural
parts where I live up in the Panhandle

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in Madison County. It happens on
both sides. It's a really good Axios

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poll that came out last year asked
young people. Seventy percent of young Democrats

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say they don't want to be friends
with a Republican. Thirty percent of young

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Republicans say they don't want to be
friends with a Democrat. And that's exactly

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what I'm seeing on the ground,
is this initial aversion to even forget how

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a conversation. Do not want to
be friends with another individual who either voted,

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or as parents, voted a certain
way or a certain views on certain

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key issues. The good news is
that despite how pervasive and how pernicious that

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divisiveness is, it's pretty easily curable. And the way to do that is

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through free speech and open debate.
Get both sides in the room to respectfully

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and in good faith have conversations about
what they believe. Don't compel speech,

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don't compel one side to say something
that they don't believe, don't force one

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side to take an argument that they
don't believe. But at the end of

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the day, if we can get
people, and I've seen it. We

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had a debate camp two years ago
at the University of Florida. I'll never

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forget this one young girl from a
wealthy community in Orlando, and she came

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in and was talking about another student
and said, you know, would you

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want to go get ice cream afterward? Just hanging out? And they said

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no, he's a Republican. And
I thought, at the time, lord

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how, you know how had no
idea any it, never really spoken to

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him, but the idea that he
was Republican. I guess it came up

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in a prior discussion. They were
having a conversation about policies. And at

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the end of that camp, and
to this day, those two are thick

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as thieves. And it's not because
we forced them to sit down and have

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a conversation they didn't want to have. We just created, we facilitated,

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not a safe space, Emily like
the other side wants to push, but

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a sacred space. And in that
sacred space, everyone's view, everyone's life,

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everyone's experience, everyone's perspective matters and
has to be respected. Well.

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One thing I think about a lot
are the incentive structures. And you know,

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in a space like this, the
judges should have the incentive to be

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fair, and the problem seems to
be that their concept of fair is a

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inaccurate and be just out of whack
with what a lot of other people's concept

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of what actually constitutes fairness. You
know, it's this question that we keep

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coming back to. We can't define
where, can't come up with common definitions

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for bigotry, equality, hate speech, any of those things anywhere near consensus

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on that anymore? So, what
does the incentive structure look like for national

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speech and debate competitions all of us
to improve? If you know there is

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you know, some of that good
news and bad days you talk about,

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some people have this totally different concept
of what fairness is. How does it

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get better? It gets better.
The way it gets better is through the

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citizen judge model. And that's something
the NSDA has really been reluctant to adapt.

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We adapted it on day wanted to
incubate debate, which is to say,

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you bring in members of the community, You bring in first responders,

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you bring in local members of the
judiciary, you bring in das, you

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bring in public defenders, you bring
in mom and pop business owners, members

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of the armed forces, right you
bring in a wide enough swath the population

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who actually can be fair. The
issue with high school debate is the people

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who judge it largely are the people
who went through it a couple of years

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prior and now they're at Wesleyan studying
gender femininity studies. Right, So that's

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the issue. And then I think
that on the individual judge level, they

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make the round about themselves and about
this existential crisis. You hear judges in

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high school debate talk about the role
of the ballot, which is to say,

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what does it mean to vote for
one team over the other. And

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if you vote for the team that
says that Israel has the right to defend

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itself, the ballot then becomes pro
apartheid, and you're sending a larger signal

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to the debate community that what is
happening in Gaza, what is happening in

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the West Bank is okay. And
so that's how they view it is that

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actually, if a judge decision comes
out that they've voted on an argument that

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was pro school choice or was pro
life, that word is going to get

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out so fast, asked Emily.
It will make your head spin and that

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person that judge will actually become a
pariah in the high school speech and debate

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community. So there's an incentive structure
that aligns with their individual place in a

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social network and kind of their value
there. But the fix is really really

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easy, and that is to reach
out to members of the community who actually

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represent the electorate, who represent a
wide range of views. Have them come

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out and judge. We've had such
a privilege, such a great time with

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them. They give great advice,
they're so happy to be there, and

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they'll tell us, you know,
no one's ever asked us to come judge

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a high school debate tournament before.
So my advice to the National Speech and

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Debate Association is, kick out all
these judges, kick out all the former

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high school debaters who want to come
and make the rounds about themselves in their

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own politics. Bring in business owners, bring in faith based leaders, first

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responders, and make the debate about
the issues and about the communities that the

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students represent. And let's talk about
the adults second, because you know,

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people of millennials, gen xers,
a lot of people from prior generations,

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you know, outside of gen Z
older than gen Z for the most part,

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we're raised with this sort of consensus
opinion on free speech that you know,

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on a playground, America's a free
country. I can do what I

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want. Blah blah blah. It
was a sort of reverence for the old

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kind of Aclu Skulky approach, which
was controversial, the controversial you know,

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a couple of generations ago. But
for people who are you know, the

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age that they're coming into parenting and
all of that now is really how we

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saw it as a country, and
that I think has probably changed a little

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bit, but maybe not as much
as it has in gen Z. Maybe

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it has. And I'm curious for
your take on where are the sort of

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adults, judges, parents, teachers
fall on these important questions, just in

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the same way you sort of explain
how it has affected kids and where they

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stand on it. Yeah, I
think the parents are represented country on these

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issues. That there's a lot of
split right on the issues that are being

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debated, and the issue of free
speech, there's usually a lot of consensus

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around this. But as you can
imagine, just because a parent believes that

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while hate speech may be abhorrent or
while this particular thing should be accept right,

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it doesn't necessarily mean that the student
is going to align with what their

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parent believes. The big thing here
is sort of that power law, right,

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which is twenty percent of the judges, let's just say roughly represent eighty

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percent of the influence and the clout
within the world of high school speech and

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debate. So, you know,
the the NSDA and their statement said,

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you know, this is cherry picking. These are just a handful of the

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forty seven thousand ballots or paradigms rather
that are on their website tabram. The

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problem with that analysis is that it
assigns equal weight to these judges. Emily,

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there is no equal weight between my
mom coming out and judging a high

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school debate tournament and Lyla Lavender,
who is the twenty nine National College Debate

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Champion, someone who for the past
year and a half has been coaching high

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school students and whose word spreads like
wildfire and carries a lot a lot of

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weight incredibility in the high school debate
scene. So these are educators, these

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are high school judges, but at
the end of the day, they are

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increasingly viewing this as sort of a
I'm viewing it anyway, as this trojan

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horse issue. We're on the outside, we're for free speech were four critical

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thinking. We're for all the things
that open debate offer students, but the

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second that gate, that horse gets
through the gate, you get the d

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EI agenda, you get the CRT
agenda. They try to stamp out the

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so called what they deemed hate speech. You have judges telling students. We

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found just over twenty judges who judge
three hundred kids at the National Hornament just

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last week in Phoenix told the students
before the round to not be transphobic.

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Okay, well what does that mean. I mean there's no kids in high

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school debate, Emily who are yelling
slurs and bringing up a student's gender identity

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and these ad hominem attacks. That
doesn't happen. This ambiguous reference to transphobia

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is really about not questioning the prevailing
views on so called gender affirming care.

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To be transphobic to these judges is
to say that women should compete in women's

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sports and men should compete in men's
sports, or to say that children cannot

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consent to puberty blockers or to life
altering surgery. So by signaling these statements

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to the students beforehand, they profoundly
change the debate, and they make what

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would normally be. And what is
in America a fifty fifty or a seventy

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five twenty five issue? They make
it look like a ninety five five issue.

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And if you advocate for simple guardrails, or you advocate for fairness in

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high school women's sports, then all
of a sudden, you're a transphobe.

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You get labeled as such, you
get pushed out of this community, and

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you don't reap any of the benefits
that I did as a high school debater.

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And we used to think about these
things as sort of, you know,

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Brooklyn versus Kansas, So what's the
matter with Kansas versus you know,

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the hipster coffee in Williamsburg. But
I'm curious, you know, I think

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you're right forres such a good cross
section, But even as you travel and

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work with all kinds of students,
it seems to me that a lot of

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regional distinctions in this deep ideological question
of hatred versus transphobia, versus bigotry versus

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science, capital s science, a
lot of that stuff, those boundaries have

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really been blurred because of social media
and the Internet. You can be a

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kid in Kansas or Wisconsin where I
grew up and still be imbibing the same

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ideological stuff because it's in the curricula
and it's on the Internet. So have

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you noticed that as a true like
our regional distinctions sort of melting away because

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of the Internet, because of the
way curricula has been nationalized with like sixteen

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Team Project and all of that.
Absolutely, I'm seeing that on the ground.

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You know, you go to a
place like Holmes County, Florida,

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which President Trump won, you got
eighty percent of the vote in twenty twenty,

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and you'll you'll have kids there who
are parroting a lot of the progressive

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sort of usual talking points. And
it's not necessarily showing up in the curriculum

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at school. A lot of it
happens via social media. And look,

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that's fine if they have those views, that's perfectly fine. You know,

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incubate debate. We try to do
is make sure you can defend your views,

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that your views are rooted in evidence
and in logic. And what I

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do to both kids on both sides, and I love doing this in rural

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areas just as much as an urban
progressive areas is. I'll say, who

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thinks Trump's a racist? Or who
doesn't like Trump? And then a kid

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will three or four kids will pop
right up, and I'll say why,

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I'll say why is Trump? Well, and like literally the wall, and

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then we'll say, okay, well, why is the wall racist? And

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he says, well, we're keeping
you know. And then it'll go on.

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And so there's not a lot of
meat to that. And the same

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thing will happen, although not as
much, but the same thing will happen

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in rural areas in the Panhandle or
in southwest Florida. I'll say, well,

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who doesn't like Joe Biden? And
a couple of kids will jump up,

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and he's a socialist, right,
you say, and why is he

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a socialist? Or why is he
a communist? Or whatever the case is.

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And look, there may be some
arguments where you could find some evidence

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where you know, President Biden or
President Trump, you can tie some socialism

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or potentially some racial prejudice or the
perceived racial prejudices and policies. But no

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student has been able to eloquently explain
that the first time around. So one,

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it's an exercise and humility. It's
also an exercise in students really being

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able to see that. Hold on
a second, I have this view maybe

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because of my parents, or maybe
because I watch Chris Hayes, or maybe

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because you know, Taylor Lorenz is
showing up on my TikTok a lot.

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But I don't actually back these views
up. And some of the most successful

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students and incubate debate have actually been
these self avowed progressives who have gone out

400
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and add for universal healthcare or advocated
for raising taxes on the wealthy, you

401
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know, to fifty sixty percent of
income. And if they can do that

402
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in a way that meets the basic
requirements of an argument, which we call

403
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claim warrant impact claim is what you're
trying to prove warrant is why is your

404
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claim true? Impact is why do
we care? If they can do that,

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and they can convince a panel of
five judges who are going to range

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00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:30,920
from a local sheriff's deputy to a
local pediatrician to a faith based leader to

407
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,160
a member of the United States Navy, then by all means, let it

408
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,759
be heard. It's not our job
to say they're wrong because of our political

409
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:42,480
beliefs. It's the other students in
the rounds job to refute them and to

410
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,799
prove that they're wrong. And if
that doesn't happen, and if those students

411
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,079
arguments stand undisputed, they'll win the
debate. And that's how it should be.

412
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,519
The Washdotor on Wall Street podcast with
Chris Markowski every day Chris helps unpack

413
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:02,880
the connection in between politics and the
economy and how it affects your wallet.

414
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,640
Is the Trump indictment a game of
three D chess by Democrats and the leftist

415
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,079
media? With all the attention on
this trial, will any be left for

416
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,680
real problems? Moving to twenty twenty
four, how about the kitchen table issues

417
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,039
that affect you and your family.
Make sure you're paying attention whether it's happening

418
00:30:17,039 --> 00:30:19,160
in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed.

419
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,359
Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street
podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple,

420
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:29,599
Spotify, or wherever you get your
podcast. And this is another problem with

421
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:34,079
just the divisions that everyone deals with, that one you deal with probably very

422
00:30:34,079 --> 00:30:41,039
acutely. What the problems are students
and judges and coaches running into when it

423
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:47,400
comes to citing sources for instance,
we're talking as this question over debate itself

424
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:52,400
was raised with Joe Rogan, R
K Junior and Peter What's his name,

425
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,559
I forget. Yes, the lab
code doctor who spewed all kinds of disinformation

426
00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:02,160
in the name of dispelling disinformation during
Code of It and medi has and who

427
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,480
wrote a book about debate, has
told him not to debate on this question.

428
00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:07,680
Joe Rogan offered him like one hundred
thousand dollars to debate RFK Jr.

429
00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:12,160
That would go to a charity of
his choice. And basically there are big

430
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,799
voices on the left to have come
out like and said don't debate. The

431
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:22,680
debates not worth it. But there's
a very real question of somebody who's a

432
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:29,200
medical professional who has all this information
he claims his valid some of it turns

433
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,720
out to be wrong, versus somebody
who does actually I think have some disinformation

434
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:40,160
out there, like RFK Junior has
very different interpretations of studies and just coming

435
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,720
to a common understanding of facts.
Now it is increasingly impossible of citing sources

436
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,119
that are reliable, and that has
hurt our ability to even have these conversations

437
00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:53,480
and debates. Can you speak to
how that might be a problem as students

438
00:31:53,519 --> 00:31:59,599
are looking for sources to site and
just basic information to back up their claims.

439
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:06,480
Absolutely, Emily, could you imagine
if in eighteen fifty eight, as

440
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,880
Stephen A. Douglas and Abraham Lincoln
were about to take the stage and take

441
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,640
part in some of the most important
debates in the history of not just this

442
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,000
country, but in the history of
history, if some journalists had shouted,

443
00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:22,279
don't debate. That's not the answer
to actually have to defend your views in

444
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,119
front of the public, your views
on popular sovereignty, on federalism, right

445
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,440
on the idea of slavery. So
what I would say is that this example

446
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:37,920
between RFK Jr. And Peter Hotez
is the latest example of the collapse of

447
00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:42,839
open debate in America. And that's
what I think the article tries to connect

448
00:32:42,839 --> 00:32:45,119
to is that, look, if
you can't have a debate in high school

449
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:46,519
debate, you really shouldn't be able
to have one everywhere. And that's actually

450
00:32:46,599 --> 00:32:51,559
what's happening. Right If you look
back at the last couple of years,

451
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,160
if the people who had pushed the
policies on the American public had actually had

452
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:01,720
to defend their views in open,
public, long form debates, we would

453
00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:06,400
have avoided a lot of the calamities
that we saw. Think would one in

454
00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:10,599
three kids be reading below grade level. If the proponents of endless school lockdowns

455
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,640
had to defend their ideas in a
debate with somebody on the other side,

456
00:33:15,799 --> 00:33:20,839
would there have been one hundred and
thirty six percent increase in adolescent speech language

457
00:33:20,839 --> 00:33:27,119
disorders If proponents of forced masking on
toddlers had had to defend their arguments at

458
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,400
an open, long form public debate. Would young men be suffering from myocarditis

459
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,640
at rates forty four times higher than
the unvaccinated control group if those forcing maxine

460
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,200
mandates on healthy eighteen year olds going
off to college had had to defend their

461
00:33:42,279 --> 00:33:46,200
arguments in a public long form debate. So debate is really the path to

462
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,440
truth. And by truth I mean
the singular truth, not your truth,

463
00:33:51,519 --> 00:33:54,400
not my truth, not one of
many truths, not my lived, experienced

464
00:33:54,440 --> 00:34:00,160
truth. But as Vivek Ramaswami offense
says, the truth, the path to

465
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:05,200
that truth emily runs through free speech
and open debate. We've seen that time

466
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,639
and again through history. The idea
that there's a settled science, that nothing

467
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:15,159
is, that something cannot be debated
is a pathetical to the idea of debate.

468
00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:17,920
I think a lot of people want
to take that to the nth degree.

469
00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:22,199
And I welcome that. Should we
have a debate about Nazism, about

470
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,719
Hitler, about whether slavery was good
or bad, and I say, bring

471
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,840
it on. Right. Slavery is
abhorrent. It is a bankrupt idea,

472
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,119
and if someone believes that it isn't, let them get up in a room

473
00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:44,239
of their peers and defend that and
let the other person respond, and there

474
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,760
will be no doubt. They will
be shown, they will be humbled that

475
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,480
their idea is bankrupt, that it
is wrong. And that's how you prove

476
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:58,320
a point. The idea that something
cannot be debated is just so wrong that

477
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,960
we have to really radically we push
this idea forward. Make no mistake.

478
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,000
Open debate made this country what it
is today, and for lack of better

479
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,079
world, what we've got to do
is you've got to make debate great again.

480
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:15,320
Well, I also wanted to ask
how much you're dealing with that issue

481
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:22,199
of my truth versus your truth versus
the truth, because I do decent amount

482
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:24,960
of talking too high school and college
students, and one thing I've noticed but

483
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,800
they really respond to is moral clarity. Like they really seem to be desperate

484
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:36,000
for moral clarity, for a foundation
of stone to be building their sort of

485
00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:38,480
moral house on stone and not sand, and they have this kind of nagging

486
00:35:38,679 --> 00:35:45,000
sense that it's all built on sand
because they've been conditioned in this moral relativism

487
00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:49,960
since they're children. It's like almost
they don't know anything else except that something

488
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,679
else's probably right and something else probably
feels better. But that's just my own

489
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:59,599
little tangent, my experience. But
how much do you see students grappling with

490
00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:05,639
that, coming in with this prerequisite
belief or prerequisite disbelief and truth and this

491
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,840
idea that things actually are relative kind
of baked into their world view. Well,

492
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,719
I would put it this way.
I think your lived experience aligns and

493
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:22,719
is congruent with my lived experience in
this particular area of intersectionality. Yeah,

494
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:27,599
it's it's exactly right, Emily.
The I think the biggest issue here is

495
00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:31,599
the disconnect between emotion and fact.
You know, we had the CNN and

496
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,239
NBC and NonStop during the pandemic talking
about you know, you're going to die

497
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,719
if you don't wear a mask,
and you're going to kill someone's grandma if

498
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,679
you don't get vaccinated, and stigmatizing
people. But the issue that we saw

499
00:36:44,679 --> 00:36:49,360
in the pandemic is a lot of
people just won't let facts get in the

500
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,000
way of a good argument, right, The idea that they have to adhere

501
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,480
to the facts to advance an argument
that is just that's anathema to what they

502
00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,079
believe. I think a lot about
that Bill maher sketch or episode from a

503
00:37:01,119 --> 00:37:07,119
couple of years ago where he really
ripped progressives and said, you guys were

504
00:37:07,119 --> 00:37:10,079
totally wrong over on COVID. You
exaggerated the statistics. We actually brought up

505
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:15,719
this poll which one of the questions
was, what do you think the chances

506
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,920
are that someone would go to the
hospital if they got COVID? And so

507
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,320
forty one percent of Democrats thought it
was over fifty percent. So there was

508
00:37:24,679 --> 00:37:30,440
even odds that you would end up
being hospitalized if you got COVID, and

509
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:34,679
the answer was between one and five
percent. Right. So a lot of

510
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:42,280
that emotion emily about lockdowns, about
forced masking, about vaccine mandates stemmed truly,

511
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:49,480
we talked about miss and disinformation stemmed
from progressive misinformation that really tore the

512
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,480
country asunder for several years, that
forced inner city kids to learn behind a

513
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:59,639
laptop where they didn't, of course, actually learn that delayed speech development in

514
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,679
young toddlers because of this misinformation.
So what I tell students when I'm going

515
00:38:04,679 --> 00:38:07,280
and visiting colleges, when I'm visiting
students all over the state of Florida,

516
00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:12,960
is let's talk about the why.
What is your warrant? What is the

517
00:38:13,079 --> 00:38:15,679
why behind your argument? Because if
you're going to make an argument as to

518
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,800
why we should have forced masking,
and your argument is predicated on the belief

519
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,079
that fifty percent of Americans who get
COVID will end up hospitalized, your argument's

520
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:28,960
going to fall flat. Right,
There is a world in which you could

521
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,719
have argued that forced masking if it
were effective, if it prevented transmission,

522
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:39,280
if the underlying pathogen was as deadly
or right, it's morbid to cause this

523
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:44,639
hospitalization, if those facts lined up
with what you are claiming, then that

524
00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:47,280
would have been a fair argument to
make. But it just so happens that

525
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:53,119
it didn't. And that's the biggest
thing is really reminding and humbling. It's

526
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,679
usually humbling exercise students. Your claim, what you're trying to prove has to

527
00:39:00,039 --> 00:39:02,320
line up with your warrant, which
is why is it true? There's a

528
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,599
really funny family guy clip there's almost
a Family Guy clip for everything. Family

529
00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:13,519
Guy is signed filed episode for Everything, but it's about pizza. And Peter

530
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,400
goes to the gym. He goes
to a CrossFit gym for the first time,

531
00:39:16,199 --> 00:39:22,800
and he goes up to this millennial
gym trainer and he says, all

532
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,199
right, I'm ready to get started. And he says, all right,

533
00:39:24,199 --> 00:39:27,760
what's your favorite food? And he
says pizza. And he says and the

534
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,280
gym trainer responds, you can't eat
that. And then he said why and

535
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,639
he said it's awful. It's one
of the worst foods. And he said,

536
00:39:36,079 --> 00:39:40,039
well why, And then the jim
because you know the ingredients, he

537
00:39:40,119 --> 00:39:44,480
says, name one, He's like
all of them. And that's just in

538
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:50,320
so many different ways, Emily,
that exact framework, he replaced pizza with

539
00:39:50,519 --> 00:39:53,920
Trump, replaced Trump with not getting
the vaccine, replaced not getting with the

540
00:39:54,000 --> 00:40:00,760
vaccine with school lockdowns, or with
the Ukraine policy, and that this becomes

541
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:06,320
part of the dynamic. Is the
idea that an argument is beyond debate.

542
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:12,119
Is the exact argument we have to
debate that if you criticize the Ukraine policy,

543
00:40:12,679 --> 00:40:15,239
if you criticize it in any way, shape, or form. You're

544
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,280
obviously carrying Putin's water, And why
are we even talking about this If you

545
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,480
criticize vaccine mandates, obviously you're an
anti vaxer and you want people to die

546
00:40:23,519 --> 00:40:28,079
in your callous And that's exactly sort
of what happened. So I think that

547
00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:32,360
was a really funny example of factor
stranger than fiction. These types of conversations

548
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,480
happen all the time, and I
would say that debate is ubiquitous, right,

549
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,679
Most debates that happen don't look like, you know, Lincoln versus Douglas

550
00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:47,239
in fifty eight, don't look like
Kennedy versus Nixon in sixty Heaven forbid Hillary

551
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:52,480
versus Trump in twenty sixteen. But
most of these debates, Emily, happen

552
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:58,719
every single day at the water cooler, around the dinner table, at work,

553
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,880
in classrooms, when you're talking about
the issues that matter. Those are

554
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,800
the debates that matter. And we
have to do a much better job as

555
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,679
Americans to be able to listen to
the other side more and think critically and

556
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:15,440
respond respectively for what is being said. And you know, even though your

557
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,719
listeners may have not done high school
debate, there's no question they had a

558
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,159
discussion. I'm sure in the last
little bit about the role of federalists were

559
00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:27,159
about vaccine mandates or about the trans
issue, and how we conduct ourselves in

560
00:41:27,199 --> 00:41:31,400
those conversations is effectively how one should
conduct themselves into debate. Jim's where can

561
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,760
people go to learn more about incubate
Debate. They can go to incubate debate

562
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,920
dot org. We are a five
O one C three nonprofit. We are

563
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,880
you know, Florida's the third largest
state in the country. We've got thousands

564
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,760
of active students there. In addition
to bring in free speech back to high

565
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,760
school debate. We're doing it at
no cost. And we're really the only

566
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,159
organization in Florida and in the nation
that can say that not only are we

567
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:59,519
not only are our tournaments free for
the students and the coaches and the parents

568
00:41:59,559 --> 00:42:01,920
to attend end, but they're also
free because you don't have to bring out

569
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:06,639
meet these judge requirements where you have
to go out and find another former high

570
00:42:06,639 --> 00:42:08,840
school debate or and fly them down
and have them judge. So everything we

571
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:13,320
do is no cost. I would
encourage your listeners to go on incubate debate

572
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,880
dot org and if they like our
work and like what we're doing. I

573
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,880
would be I would be honored for
their support. James Fishback is the founder

574
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,679
and executive director of Incubate Debate.
James, we really appreciate you coming on

575
00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:28,840
the show. Oh it's my pleasure. Thank you. Emilie. Of course

576
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,159
you've been listening to another edition of
The Federalist or radio hour and then like

577
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:35,000
you should see culture editor here at
The Federalist. We'll be back soon with

578
00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:40,199
more. Until then, be lovers
of freedom and anxious for the fray.

579
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:49,119
All right,