1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,200 Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you so much for being here with me tonight. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,960 I've been looking forward to this conversation for a little bit. I've been 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,320 listening to my guests today for quite a while. He's appeared on a bunch 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,800 of our Mutual Friends podcast Rachel Wilson, Buck Johnson, Tommy Sammons, a 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:25,079 bunch of absolutely fantastic people, and he's definitely had me questioning a lot of 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,239 my core beliefs and a lot of the things that I've kind of always taken 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,119 for granted my worldview. So I don't want to keep you guys too long 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:33,759 this porsch of the show, So I'm sure it's gonna be a very very 9 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:36,880 good conversation. Make sure you go to all the links below where you could 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,840 find my guest, myself, everything I like, got Everything I got coming 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,119 on at Tigerfitness dot com, specifically through the link below to use my affiliate 12 00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:48,560 and get all their wonderful supplements, drink Elementy dot com, Slash and Liberty 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:52,560 and Health for the world's greatest electrolytes, and Focusun's Coffee dot Com makes you 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,679 use code Kyle at checkout and without food. Ado Let's Rock and roll. 15 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:02,280 What is up, everybody? My name is Kyletvik. I'm the host of 16 00:01:02,359 --> 00:01:07,040 the In Liberty and Health podcast, where we talk all things liberty, health 17 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:14,079 and wellness and beyond. My hope is to encourage and spread the message of 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:19,120 liberty, physical and mental wellbeing. I hope you enjoy all the topics we 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:23,799 talked about with our guests. We are on all major streaming platforms, so 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,640 please sit back, relax, and enjoy. Man. I'm doing as good 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,680 as anyone can do. Getting buried by his thirteen year old son on play 22 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,200 day, I'm not going to apologize for not being on this podcast because I 23 00:01:37,239 --> 00:01:41,400 got to go see Metality, So if that's a problem, kiss my ass. 24 00:01:41,799 --> 00:01:49,239 Damn. Welcome to the show, Jay Dyer. How you doing man, 25 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,560 I'm doing great, Cayle, thanks for having me on. Yeah, 26 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:56,359 of course. Well, as I said in the introduction, you and a 27 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,079 lot of different people from the orthodox Christian worldview have really kind of got me 28 00:02:00,159 --> 00:02:05,319 questioning my libertarian foundations and specifically listen to some of the debates you've done with 29 00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:08,719 libertarians and also the idea around like Enlightenment philosophies. But I guess before we 30 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,120 get into that, for anybody who doesn't know you, feel free to give 31 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,479 yourself a low introduction. What you do. Yeah, I do a lot 32 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:23,800 of breakdowns of movies, philosophy, geopolitics, debates with atheists, Muslims, 33 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:30,439 Roman Catholics, Protestants. We do a lot of literary analysis. We break 34 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:32,719 down a lot of big geopolitical texts from the global elite, and then I 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,960 kind of summarize those in an accessible format for people. We also do a 36 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,560 lot of comedy. I host the fourth hour of The Ox Jones Show every 37 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:47,479 Friday. I've written in three books. Yeah, did you catch Kat Williams 38 00:02:47,479 --> 00:02:51,159 on Joe Rogan? I heard you do an impression. You do a pretty 39 00:02:51,199 --> 00:02:54,759 good one them my two watch lists. I watched the whole Shay Shakat Williams 40 00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:59,800 interview and we did a couple of podcasts analyzing that. But I just haven't 41 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,800 got to the Rogan one yet, but I planned to gotcha, Gotcha. 42 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,439 I'm too excited for Dune to go watch that yet. I got you. 43 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,919 Okay, So I saw you did a whole stream on Dune. My wife 44 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:15,680 and I watched it once and I didn't quite follow it. But it seems 45 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:17,960 to be a very very big cultural thing. Because I see everybody talking about 46 00:03:19,039 --> 00:03:23,319 Dune, so I guess we could maybe start there, are why is everybody 47 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,280 so obsessed with doing what's kind of the whole deal with this and what's your 48 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:31,039 kind of understanding of the meta of it? Probably most people are obsessed with 49 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:37,000 it because a lot of the culture is nerdified, and so you know, 50 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:42,000 sci fi rules the day. But there's been you know, eight ten years 51 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:46,719 maybe now, of the outlets that would produce most of the sci fi that 52 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:52,319 people are eating up and consuming, like Marble Disney, right, they've been 53 00:03:52,439 --> 00:03:57,080 kind of like cyfying and making it social justice woke. So I think that 54 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,159 whenever we get just a taste of the way movies used to be before twenty 55 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,639 fifteen, sixteen or whatever, when we can you know, kind of reminisce 56 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:10,039 over what it was like watching the Lord of the Rings trilogy, you know 57 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,439 in the theater, or maybe even the Matrix trilogy in the theater. People 58 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:18,120 are kind of they're craving that authentic experience where they don'teel like they're being preached 59 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,480 at with a bunch of you know, woke morals and guilt trips. So 60 00:04:23,519 --> 00:04:27,600 that's part of it, I think, And at the same time, Dune 61 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:31,480 is a unique series of novels. I've read the first two and I grew 62 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:38,319 up really loving the David Lynch version and ended up reading Dune one maybe ten 63 00:04:38,399 --> 00:04:41,759 years ago. I really liked it, and I branched out read the second 64 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,000 one recently, and I think the drawl for those is that kind of like 65 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,199 Game of Thrones. I'm not a huge Game of Thrones fan, but I 66 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:53,160 think what people like about it is the complexity of the plots. There's a 67 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:58,560 lot of courtly intrigue, conspiracy, espionage all in a sci fi novel, 68 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,680 but also a lot of elements that you wouldn't expect in science fiction, like 69 00:05:01,959 --> 00:05:06,120 no AI, right, I mean, the world of Doune is unique in 70 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:13,279 that they've had a crusade of sorts at one point in the universe's history against 71 00:05:13,399 --> 00:05:16,439 artificial intelligence. So there's no aliens really that we can think of or that 72 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,519 we know of, so Aliens AI, the very staples of classic sci fi 73 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:26,040 are not there. And Herbert was a unique figure who doesn't fit into the 74 00:05:26,079 --> 00:05:31,079 traditional normy liberal sphere of science fiction like most of science fiction authors would be. 75 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:34,439 He was a GOP speech writer, and I'm not saying that makes him 76 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:39,319 a good guy. The novels are not ultimately like Christian, but they have 77 00:05:39,399 --> 00:05:44,680 kind of basic traditional ideas about the roles of men and women. They have 78 00:05:45,959 --> 00:05:49,120 some perennialist ideas which I would critique, but I think are still interesting just 79 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:57,879 from a storytelling perspective. It's kind of a Nestorian view of man and God, 80 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:00,120 and that, you know, the main character kind of comes a godlike 81 00:06:00,199 --> 00:06:06,639 figure eventually. And this is critiqued as kind of a warning against tyrannical government. 82 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,120 This was actually doing. Messiah makes a big point of this because it 83 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,519 came out in the Cold War, so Herbert was interested in warning people about 84 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:19,480 the dangers of Soviet autocracy. That's just one kind of element of the novel, 85 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,160 though, But there's all these other weird, you know, really pioneering 86 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:28,199 way ahead of their time things in the novel, which comes out in the 87 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,120 sixties. You've got geoengineering, you've got m culture, mind control, You've 88 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:36,560 got you know, the idea very profound. I think that a lot of 89 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:44,759 the global economy revolves around illegal resources in black markets, the spice, which 90 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,079 is the drug of that universe. So I think we're being told about that 91 00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:54,439 and the Freemen are kind of a loose analogy to Islamic Arab cultures, loosely 92 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,959 speaking, in the future that we're speaking of there, it's actually a ten 93 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,600 thousand years in the future where there's like a blended Catholicism in Islam into some 94 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,680 kind of weird religion. And I just like all the elements of the secret 95 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Society of the Witch Coven that sort of manipulates bloodlines, genetic manipulation, all 96 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,480 these conspiracy themes are not typically in an espionage themes or not typically in a 97 00:07:16,519 --> 00:07:20,399 science fiction novel, so it's very unique in that way. And the series 98 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:26,439 itself, the books they get really really philosophical, and you know, as 99 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,680 a philosophy student, that interests me, so I could definitely understand why people 100 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,680 if they hadn't read the book or don't like that story, they might not 101 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,160 like the first movie. But I think just standing on its own, you 102 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,439 have to see obviously the first one to watch the new movie, but it's 103 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,439 just an amazing technical achievement. The sound, the cinematography, the art direction 104 00:07:46,519 --> 00:07:48,720 just kind of blows everybody away. And we haven't seen anything like this, 105 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:51,199 like I said, in fifteen twenty years and in terms of movie going. 106 00:07:53,079 --> 00:07:56,360 Yeah, Well, the one thing that kind of came to mind amongst some 107 00:07:56,439 --> 00:08:00,680 of the topics you were hitting on there was I thought about Avatar, because 108 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:03,920 the original Avatar came out in like two thousand and eight, I want to 109 00:08:03,959 --> 00:08:05,759 say, someone around there, and then the second one came out like a 110 00:08:05,839 --> 00:08:09,120 year or two ago, and that kind of goes like the cinematography, Yeah, 111 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,759 because both of those were like beautiful films with like these you know, 112 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:18,040 very very beautifully animated world people and all that kind of stuff. But the 113 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,879 one other thing that I kind of thought about was when you talked about kind 114 00:08:20,879 --> 00:08:24,720 of like the respective roles of men and women was Jack Reacher, and that 115 00:08:24,839 --> 00:08:28,639 show I thought was absolutely fascinating because that was it was kind of show that 116 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:35,279 displayed a masculine archetype and a figure who wasn't necessarily you know, your typical 117 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:41,559 either Homer Simpson or outward abuser, but he was doing things that were questionable 118 00:08:41,759 --> 00:08:46,240 but generally you know, you might almost recognize as good but didn't always seem 119 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:48,320 like a good idea at the time. So I thought it was a very 120 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:54,240 very interesting, just two seasons that actually did very very well despite you know, 121 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,159 not really having any outward agenda. Yeah, that's a good example. 122 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:01,240 I mean, I haven't seen that show, but there's a few diamonds in 123 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,000 the rough, you know, gems that I think guys like john Wick, 124 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:07,919 because john Wick kind of is, you know, the remaining you know, 125 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,879 action hero guy from the you know, the nineties was all about action heroes, 126 00:09:13,919 --> 00:09:18,320 and you've got Stallone and Schwartzenegger and you know, Bruce Willis and so 127 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,200 you know, it's it's I guess it's interesting that Keanu can still pull that 128 00:09:22,279 --> 00:09:28,559 off. But for the most part, you know, especially since twenty fourteen, 129 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,039 fifteen sixteen, it's just gotten really bad in terms of especially blockbusters are 130 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,879 so packed with propaganda and a lot of it's the Marvel stuff. So yeah, 131 00:09:37,879 --> 00:09:43,279 I guess you could argue that I'm not a huge fan of Avatar myself, 132 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,759 but I understand what you're saying, just from sort of the visual experience. 133 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:48,879 A lot of people find it appealing, and I think Dune is that 134 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:52,120 way too. Dune too is that way that, you know. I didn't 135 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,399 actually go into the movie thinking it was going to be anything other than just 136 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:01,720 good and all right, like the first one, but it was way better 137 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,879 than I expected, so I think that's why people are are really gravitating towards 138 00:10:05,879 --> 00:10:09,480 it. Gotcha, gotcha? Yeah, Well, I think we're gonna have 139 00:10:09,519 --> 00:10:11,480 to rewatch the first one and maybe go see the second one movie theaters. 140 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:16,799 Our mutual friend Rachel Wilson good to see this collapse drops by. I appreciate 141 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:20,799 it, and I appreciate Rachel for all your support. So one thing that 142 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,600 I was curious about as well is kind of your path to the Orthodox Christianity. 143 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,639 Because I don't want to necessarily credit you for being responsible for the rise 144 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:31,279 of Orthodox Christianity because I see it. I don't want to say everywhere but 145 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:33,000 a decent bit now, but I definitely think you're probably one of the more 146 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:35,919 well known names. So what was that journey like for you? Were you 147 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,039 an atheist or an agnostic beforehand? Were you Catholic? I don't think i've 148 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,519 heard you described that, so I'm curious about how your journey on belief kind 149 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:48,720 of went. I was raised Southern Baptist, just kind of nominally. My 150 00:10:48,799 --> 00:10:52,159 family was from the South, and then I grew up in San Diego. 151 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,639 My dad was in the Navy, so we didn't go to church like NonStop 152 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,799 we would go for a while, and then we wouldn't go, and then 153 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:05,320 we would and then I guess my high school time, I was pretty wild 154 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,840 and didn't think anything about church or anything like that. I wouldn't say I 155 00:11:09,919 --> 00:11:13,399 was ever an atheist. I just wasn't really concerned with it so much. 156 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:18,159 At that time. I was more interested in chasing women and partying. And 157 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,159 by the time I was eighteen, I got invited to some Bible studies that 158 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:24,840 were evangelical. I went to those, so I kind of got back into 159 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:33,200 my evangelical background and went to Bible College for a couple of semesters. Didn't 160 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,000 really jie with that. I was more interested in the philosophical sides of things, 161 00:11:37,519 --> 00:11:43,279 and so right around the same time, I started questioning Protestantism. This 162 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,879 is about two thousand and one two three, and so I started reading a 163 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:52,639 lot of church history, and I was really interested, you know, in 164 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:56,879 the Bible. I loved the Bible, and you know the history of the 165 00:11:56,919 --> 00:12:00,240 Old Testament and all that, but I didn't know a whole lot about well, 166 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:03,039 what about the church fathers and what about the ecumenical councils? And so 167 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,679 I started hearing these things and I didn't know much about that. So about 168 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,440 the whole Church Fathers set thirty eight volumes, I didn't read all of it, 169 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,480 but I started with the Latin Church Fathers because they were the most you 170 00:12:13,519 --> 00:12:16,200 know, accessible, and the ones that I had heard quoted the most as 171 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,120 a Calvinist, so I'd heard, you know, Augustine quoted, and Ambrose 172 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,919 and Jerome and these Western church fathers, and I liked Calvin and Luther a 173 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:28,159 lot. So I wanted to see, well, okay, but what are 174 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,720 these what do these predecessors believe? And so that led me to a lot 175 00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:37,279 of questions around, well, now I realize they don't believe like I believe, 176 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:39,960 So how can I say that I'm you know, in the same line 177 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,799 of thinking or the same tradition as the Church fathers. And so then it 178 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:48,679 led to a bigger question ultimately, which was the how the Bible came to 179 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,919 be in the formation of the Cannon. So I read a bunch of books 180 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,559 on that from different sides. I didn't just pick a Catholic side of it. 181 00:12:54,759 --> 00:13:00,159 I read Protestant, Evangelical, and Catholic histories of the formation of the 182 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:03,440 Cannon. And the more I got into the Church Fathers, and not just 183 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:09,240 reading the Church Fathers directly, but also historians of ideas like Rslav Pelicon and 184 00:13:09,279 --> 00:13:15,399 his famous series which is usually read at a lot of seminaries. So I 185 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,559 read that series, the five volume series, and then I read more and 186 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:22,080 more secondary works on the Church Fathers, more and more of the Church Fathers. 187 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,639 I wrote a whole lot of Augustine. I get really enamored with his 188 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,039 writings, and that led me to becoming Roman Catholic. So when I got 189 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,759 into the Roman Catholic world in two thousand and three, you you pretty quickly 190 00:13:37,519 --> 00:13:41,399 are introduced to the problems of the Roman Catholic world. And I was, 191 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,639 you know, keep in mind, I'm like twenty and twenty one at the 192 00:13:43,639 --> 00:13:46,840 time, so this is I was pretty young at this time, maybe twenty 193 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,879 two, and you're really idealistic when you're in your early twenties, and then 194 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:56,720 you kind of study deeper and deeper into the problems of Catholic theology and you're 195 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,440 trying to grapple with this. And I grappled with it for maybe seven or 196 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,440 eight years, and I started having my doubts about the office of the papacy. 197 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,159 I didn't really doubt Christianity. At this point, I was just kind 198 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:13,639 of not sure whether where to go in terms of the contradictions that I saw 199 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,519 with pre Vatican two and post Vatican two teaching. So I went to the 200 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:26,039 Latin Mass for many many years SSPX, and then I eventually just felt like 201 00:14:26,279 --> 00:14:30,879 I couldn't There was no reconciliation for the open contradiction of the Vatican. And 202 00:14:30,919 --> 00:14:35,679 I remember this was that this is way before like the crazy stuff that Pote 203 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:37,399 Francis has done. I mean, this is back. This was still I 204 00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:41,720 think in the John Paul the Second era, I was going to the Mass, 205 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:43,440 the Latin Mass, even when John Paul the Second was the pope. 206 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:46,399 And then we got Benedict and people thought, oh, well it's going to 207 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,879 be a lot better now, and nothing really got better other than sort of 208 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:58,080 externals and verbal credence to tradition. But anyway, so about two thousand and 209 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:00,720 seven I started just I was like, I don't know, I just don't 210 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,279 know if I believe rom with Aolocism anymore. So I had a period of 211 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,559 like not going to church for a while, and I did start looking at 212 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:13,679 Orthodox in two thousand and seven, and my girlfriend sort of fiance at the 213 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,000 time. She and I were both going to be received into the church at 214 00:15:16,039 --> 00:15:18,799 the same time. We went through the catechumen it and we were going to 215 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:26,360 be married and received in the Antiochian Church in Nashville, and I just couldn't. 216 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:28,480 I just ultimately, when it came down to it, I couldn't do 217 00:15:28,519 --> 00:15:33,480 it. Yet. I was so wrapped up with and enmeshed in like augustinding 218 00:15:33,559 --> 00:15:39,200 and tonistic ideas about materiology and theology. I wasn't ready for the difference that 219 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,080 you experience in the Orthodox world. So I held off. I was like, 220 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,440 you know, I'm just not ready to become orthodox yow. And that 221 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,519 was actually the right decision. I really wasn't ready. So a lot of 222 00:15:48,519 --> 00:15:50,960 people were like, why didn't you You should have become Orthodox. No, 223 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,240 actually you shouldn't. If you're not really into it, you shouldn't. So 224 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,360 looking back, it was for me the right decision to do it at that 225 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:06,639 time. So then I kind of took a break. I was burned out 226 00:16:06,639 --> 00:16:10,919 on religious disputes and theological debates, and I've been so en messed in that 227 00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,039 world for you know, since I was eighteen or nineteen. I just kind 228 00:16:15,039 --> 00:16:19,759 of got tired of it, and I didn't become agnostic. I just kind 229 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:26,679 of wasn't sure about which theological tradition I was aligned with. I remember reading 230 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:30,840 a lot of neoplatonic stuff, perennials stuff. That's when I started reading gain 231 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,639 On and shoe On and all these different kind of traditionalist things which I thought 232 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:40,440 were interesting. But I never really found anything that was super compelling. So 233 00:16:40,519 --> 00:16:42,320 I just kind of didn't have I wouldn't say it was agnostic. I still 234 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,919 thought there had to be some kind of God, I mean, and he 235 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,759 had to be personal. But it took about I don't know, four or 236 00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:53,240 five years, six years of that, and then I started kind of gradually 237 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:56,879 reading the Bible again, reading the Church Fathers again. I kind of had 238 00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:00,320 to warm back up to it because I also had some bad experience it is 239 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:04,000 at the Orthodox Church at that time. Yeah, And so eventually I decided 240 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:08,359 to keep studying it. And I had been studying it off and on. 241 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,599 I just it wasn't my main focus. But ever since two thousand and seven 242 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:17,119 or eight, I was always interested in reading the Eastern Church Fathers, Cappadocians 243 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,680 and so forth. In Saint Maximus, so I made the decision to finally 244 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:26,680 convert to Orthodox Sye actually in twenty fourteen, but I wasn't near enough to 245 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,480 a church to be received yet, so it took actually about twenty seventeen to 246 00:17:30,559 --> 00:17:38,640 be received and then chrismated. So I called myself like a ten year catechumen, 247 00:17:40,039 --> 00:17:42,519 so I was basically learning it throughout that whole year. Anyway, that's 248 00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:47,920 a long story rambling, but that was that's my background. No, that's 249 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,799 that's fascinating because one thing that's kind of interesting for me as I've been agnostic 250 00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,319 pretty much my entire life, but I would say over the last couple of 251 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,240 years, especially since I met my wife, I've been more and more interested 252 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,000 in religion. Then as I've seen what it's done for other people that I 253 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:10,240 know personally in their lives, it's really given me a lot to question and 254 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:14,240 a lot to think about. And I like that you said you weren't quite 255 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,279 ready and that you thought it was a right move to kind of hold off 256 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,119 on kind of going all in on becoming Orthodox, because I think a lot 257 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,720 of people, whether it comes to religion or really anything, the first thing 258 00:18:25,759 --> 00:18:27,079 I want to do is they find there are new toys they can't wait to 259 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,039 kind of dive all in on it and say like this is me and I 260 00:18:30,039 --> 00:18:33,799 identify as this and then you know, it's like the it's such a Dunning 261 00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,880 Kruger effect where like so you'll learn about it, you know everything, and 262 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,480 then like right after the first couple of months, you realize, oh, 263 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,200 I don't know anything and there's so much more room for growth. That kind 264 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:49,000 of seems like what you were probably experiencing. I think that's a very wise 265 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,960 approach. Yeah, I mean, I'm assuming you're younger than me, but 266 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,880 I mean it took me many years to learn that. So again, yeah, 267 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,440 part of it's you know, when you're in your twenties about you, 268 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,079 but people in general when you're when you are, in general are in your 269 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,640 twenties, you're very idealistic and you think, like you said, like, 270 00:19:06,759 --> 00:19:10,079 oh, I've you know, watched at that time, they we don't really 271 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,240 you have YouTube. It's like I've read a bunch of blog articles and like, 272 00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:17,000 now I know you know this position, and I'm so convinced and certain 273 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,160 and I think, you know, it just takes time to get older. 274 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,359 And then you realize, well, no where nowhere is going to have like 275 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:29,119 this perfect easy. There's no position that's going to answer every question, right. 276 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,559 That doesn't mean that there's no position that can answer anything at all or 277 00:19:32,599 --> 00:19:37,640 give a basis for a worldview. But I think you had really high expectations. 278 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,960 You have these purity spiraling tendencies when you're in your twenties, and as 279 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,400 you get older, you realize that these are kind of unrealistic expectations for any 280 00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:52,759 position at all, whatever your worldview is. So so yeah, I think 281 00:19:52,799 --> 00:19:56,920 that there was immaturities that I had in my twenties. Obviously, not just 282 00:19:56,000 --> 00:20:00,839 theological immaturities, but immaturities about my own life and you know, kind of 283 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,680 being lazy and not being prepared to be married, and so there's a lot 284 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,359 of things that also, you know, like I shouldn't have gotten married at 285 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,200 the same time too, so I'm glad I didn't because I wasn't ready for 286 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:15,839 it. But but yeah, I think I think you learn that as you 287 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:22,440 get older that the grass might seem greener on another position right away, and 288 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,720 it may actually be right, it may be a greener but we don't want 289 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:30,559 to leap into those positions too hastily. And I think when you're younger, 290 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,039 there is the temptation to fall for that. Yeah, And I think to 291 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,400 that point as well, with age, I feel like you probably learned that, 292 00:20:38,519 --> 00:20:41,839 like, regardless of the belief that you hold, like a lot of 293 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,960 the work is still going to be on you. And I think that's what 294 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:51,920 a lot of people who don't quite take their religion seriously probably lean on, 295 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,240 like you know, going to confessional and just saying, oh, I'm leave 296 00:20:55,279 --> 00:20:56,880 all my sins, so therefore I can fuck off with the rest of the 297 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,079 week and it doesn't matter what I do. But I like the way that 298 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,960 or much you'll find Rachel kind of described it to me, whenever people pass 299 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,000 away and they're in the presence of God, that you're going to feel more 300 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,799 of a warm feeling rather than you know, perhaps a cold or unloving feeling. 301 00:21:11,839 --> 00:21:14,799 And I may be paraphrasing this poorly, but like the idea that the 302 00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:18,319 accumulation of your life and the good deeds that you did is going to define 303 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:23,160 the relationship with God in the afterlife. That was something that was very very 304 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,640 fascinating to me in the way that she'd explained it. And I'm incredibly ignorant 305 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,039 in religion, so, like I said, this is just over the last 306 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:33,359 couple of months kind of diving into the stuff has been very, very fascinating 307 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:34,559 for me, and you've definitely played a part in that, as well as 308 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:40,200 Rachel, Tommy and some of the other people that I mentioned. Yeah, 309 00:21:40,279 --> 00:21:45,960 I mean, I think there's an attitude. Typically. One big difference that 310 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,519 I think you're hitting on, and you can correct me if I misunderstood you, 311 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:53,240 is that in the typical Western ideas of religion, whether it's Protestant or 312 00:21:53,279 --> 00:21:57,759 Roman Catholic, like, the typical attitude is like God the stern judge, 313 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:02,400 and then I'm guilty. And you know, if I go and kind of 314 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,240 do these religious rituals, I'll be I'll be straight, you know what I 315 00:22:07,319 --> 00:22:10,319 mean, I can go back to whatever. And I think the difference is 316 00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:15,799 that Orthodoxy is more like a a rehab program, like in this sense that 317 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,119 we're all kind of going into the situation where there's not a mechanical exchange. 318 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:22,519 I mean, you could conceivably make it a mechanical exchange if that's what you 319 00:22:22,599 --> 00:22:27,279 chose to do, but like in my experience, it's more so like confession 320 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:34,359 isn't a like a mechanical exchange. It's more like a very personal situation of 321 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:40,119 like having a personal trainer. So it's like literally having a personal trainer that's 322 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:45,240 like keeping you accountable to whether you've made progress in virtue. As opposed to 323 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,319 an anonymous confessional in the Romancallity church where I just say these things and he 324 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,240 says, Okay, go say at five hilm areas and try to do better. 325 00:22:53,440 --> 00:23:00,480 This is more like you know, internal counseling, where you're figure out 326 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:06,640 the problem points and then addressing those and then kind of having accountability to see 327 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,319 if you're getting better. So it's a lot more intimate in the sense of 328 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,160 the confessional example that you gave, and that's I think a better uh explanation 329 00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:22,000 overall as to one of the differences, say, between orthodox the Orthodoxy experience 330 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,319 and what you would experience in the Roman Catholic world. That's not to say 331 00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:29,039 that Roman Catholics aren't serious or there aren't people who are sincere about wanting to 332 00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:30,880 do better. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that just the experience of 333 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:37,039 confession itself as an example contrasts these two views of a kind of a cold 334 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:41,039 mechanical exchange versus a kind of personal trainer. Who actually kind of cares about 335 00:23:41,039 --> 00:23:45,200 you as an individual. Because if I'm going to confession and it's like there's 336 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:48,720 the blinders there, right, and he doesn't know who I am, I 337 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,359 don't know who it is. I mean conceivably in the Roman Catholic world, 338 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,000 right, you can go confess in Roman Catholic churches and they have no idea 339 00:23:56,039 --> 00:24:02,319 who's talking to them. So it's like it's like cheating the system, but 340 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,480 it's only cheating you because the purpose of having a confessor or spiritual father is 341 00:24:06,519 --> 00:24:10,559 that to see like are you getting better? Like do we need to do 342 00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:12,720 Maybe we need to do this over here. Maybe you need to spend less 343 00:24:12,759 --> 00:24:15,920 time, you know, out of the bar, you need to spend less 344 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,240 time you know doing X y Z because that's an occasion for sin for you 345 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,160 or something like that. You see what I'm saying. It's like it's like 346 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,640 rather than reporting in on a phone call to like an automated service, like 347 00:24:29,079 --> 00:24:32,799 did you do your workout today? Right, Like you've got an actual personal 348 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:34,839 trainer that's there, you know, on the spot. Like that's a better 349 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,000 analogy. Yeah, No, I think you picked up exactly post putting down 350 00:24:40,039 --> 00:24:42,839 there, And I think the idea of accountability is very very important for people 351 00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:48,920 because you know, when you have high expectations amongst your community or amongst other 352 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,640 people, then you do innately feel like you have to do better. Like 353 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:56,279 an example that always comes to mind for me is that, like I work 354 00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:59,200 with a very very good group of technicians. Someone ought to move technician by 355 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:03,359 trade, and I know that if I were slipping or that if I wasn't 356 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:04,480 do my best, then the rest of the guys in the shop are going 357 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,400 to look at me and say like, hey, man, go on pick 358 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,559 it up. Like we have a good career guys here, we need you 359 00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:11,799 to pull your weight. And essentially, I think kind of what you were 360 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,079 getting at there is essentially that your spiritual father would be the same kind of 361 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,440 motivating spirit in a way saying like okay, well you're falling behind on these 362 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,039 behaviors and you need to do a little bit better, but not in a 363 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:23,240 way that like, oh, you're going to go to hell if you if 364 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,559 you don't do better, but like you should want to do better for yourself. 365 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:32,599 Am I I mean relationship, it's a mirror, it's a spiritual version 366 00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:34,400 of father's son. Right, So I mean U last week, we had 367 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,799 a particularly bad experience with our human fathers, which is possible, right, 368 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,799 typically we don't. We Most fathers love their sons, and so you know, 369 00:25:42,839 --> 00:25:47,079 your dad doesn't want you destroyed. He wants you to do better. 370 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:52,720 So you know, that's that's the analogy to father's son. And certainly you 371 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:59,279 know, in the Protestant world there are pastors who who counsel people positively. 372 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,400 And I'm not saying that that doesn't occur. It's just a very different experience, 373 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,160 I think in the Orthodox world, because for example, in Orthodoxy there's 374 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,039 a big emphasis on things like fasting and alms giving, and so you know, 375 00:26:12,079 --> 00:26:17,440 your spiritual father is gonna say combat like if you have a problem. 376 00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:19,160 I don't have a problem with gluttony per se, but let's say you have 377 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:25,880 had a problem with gluttony. The antidote to gluttony is not just not eating. 378 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,759 It's actually the opposite. Every vice has a corresponding virtue. So if 379 00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:38,519 your temptation is to like be a glutton and you're consuming, consuming, consuming, 380 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:45,039 then the antidote is to practice more giving. So rather than take, 381 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:48,160 take, take, you're giving. And so there might be like, you 382 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,680 know, not just fasting from these foods that are you know, high end 383 00:26:55,000 --> 00:27:00,200 whatever carbohydrates and sugar. You know what, maybe you should also find some 384 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,160 people who are in need that could use some of that money. So maybe 385 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,720 you're spending i don't know, fifty bucks extra on junk food a month, 386 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:12,000 why don't you take that fifty dollars a junk food and find somebody who needs 387 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,920 help with their groceries. You see what I'm saying that that might be a 388 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:21,160 potential antidote. And so getting in the practice of virtue is how we acquire 389 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:29,960 the virtues. And that's different than like an average maybe Protestant pastor who they're 390 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,519 not typically gonna, you know, even stress alms giving unless it's like give 391 00:27:34,559 --> 00:27:37,960 me more money for the church or like Protestants might do. So the pastors 392 00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:44,240 might do something like that, but it's just a very different approach to virtue 393 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:48,319 advice, whereas in the Protestant world it's a lot more like, well, 394 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,559 ask God for forgiveness and then like you're you know, the God's disposition changes 395 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:56,920 towards you, and it's like, but I'm the one that needs to actually 396 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:02,400 have the interchange. It's not just me paying off God or like doing something 397 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,759 to be in his favor, like a mob boss, right, Like God's 398 00:28:04,759 --> 00:28:08,119 the mod mob boss and you you, you know, send your twenty percent 399 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,640 commission up to the to the Godfather, then you're good. It's like, 400 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,960 no, actually I need the healing though, you know, I need I 401 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,400 need the inner transformation. I think that's a good analogy to the to the 402 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,680 difference there. Yeah, that's that's actually fascinating. Everything you said there, 403 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,000 specifically with laying out the vice and virtues. I've never heard anybody lay it 404 00:28:27,039 --> 00:28:33,400 out that way, but I think that's beautiful really in its nature. So 405 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,640 one thing that I also want to kind of touch on it seems like, 406 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,200 uh, I'm I would say, I'm kind of included in the red pill 407 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:48,240 sphere right now, and I'm curious if you see a similar bassadorization of religion 408 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,079 in the way that people kind of talk about religion and alt media right now, 409 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,599 by the way like people representing it. So maybe I'm not articulating this 410 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,400 perfectly, but like when I see people who just kind of flip over to 411 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:07,279 religion right away and then want to, you know, preach to everybody sanctimoniously 412 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:11,480 and never acknowledge their own previous sins and just kind of the way that oh, 413 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:15,079 media just bastardizes everything now right, I'm sure you see this in droves, 414 00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,279 but I'm curious if, like you think that's a net negative or a 415 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:21,839 net positive, because, like I said, I don't think it's just good 416 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,240 for religit, but it just seems like kind of like the current day, 417 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,119 everything that's good, the olt media will take it, and then you're gonna 418 00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:33,400 have dumb asses that just go out and fuck it up. Yeah, it's 419 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,319 a really annoying phenomenon. I'm not sure what the solution is. I actually, 420 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,799 I personally I tend to not pay any attention to the for you. 421 00:29:41,599 --> 00:29:45,119 So, like I tell my wife this, you're so much smarter than me. 422 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:48,279 My wife follows, she pulls up Twitter and she gets on the for 423 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,400 you, and then you know she's coming to me. Someone's as to this, 424 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,240 someone's to this, and I'm like, I don't care, don't tell 425 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,279 me what's on the for you. I never ever look at the for you. 426 00:29:59,319 --> 00:30:02,400 Now, maybe other people can handle it better, I don't. I 427 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,200 just don't do it. So, I mean, that's not obviously going to 428 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:10,480 solve this problem. But I mean, as people are more and more, 429 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:15,400 you know, derascinated in modernity. They're going to be looking more and more 430 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,160 for answers, for authenticity, for tradition, and so they're going to be 431 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:26,160 looking across the spectrum of Catholicism, Classical Protestantism, Anglicanism, you know, 432 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,039 traditionalism. They might be looking at Orthodoxy, all kinds of different things. 433 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,880 I think that as things get crazier, more and more people are going to 434 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,119 continue to operate this way. There's I don't know how we there's no answer 435 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,880 really to stopping drifters, or to stopping people who were suddenly who suddenly becomes 436 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,839 super self righteous. I find it to be really annoying. People might think 437 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,079 that I'm like a heated debate brow or whatever, but like, you don't 438 00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,559 see me preaching and going crazy on morals, no, real quick. I 439 00:30:56,599 --> 00:31:00,000 wanted to touch on that real quick. Every time I've seen you debate somebody, 440 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,839 my interpretation, because I watch your Liquid Zoolu debate. I watch your 441 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,640 one with Austin Peterson, and I watch your one with Stefan mal Andu, 442 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,920 and I think, whenever you're with somebody who's being good faith to you, 443 00:31:12,039 --> 00:31:17,680 I've never seen you go bad faith on anybody. I've only seen you get 444 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,079 frustrated when it seemed warranted. So I'm sorry to interrupt. I just want 445 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:26,680 to apprecid honestly phrase. But I think I'm a fairly reasonable person. I'm 446 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,119 not gonna for no reason just be you know, rude or asked to somebody. 447 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:33,319 He typically, uh, you know, if that comes about, it's 448 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,279 because people are debating in bad faith, or there are people who have been, 449 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,640 you know, a consistent problem for many years, and then maybe somebody 450 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,880 doesn't know that there's a background with that person being a problem troll or whatever, 451 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,039 and they hear me saying or I'm not I'm not gonna talk to you. 452 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:51,240 Well he's so mean he didn't talk. Yeah, but that's the guy 453 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,920 who calls in every time I do a stream, right, and I don't. 454 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,920 So so people don't know these backgrounds and this kind of stuff. So 455 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,960 that's part of it. But another part of it too is that I'm sure 456 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,359 you would share this sentiment. I mean, so many people are just so 457 00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:09,039 like sissy now. I mean it's like they they'll act like if you disagree 458 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,839 or if you date debate in a in a heated way, that that's somehow 459 00:32:15,079 --> 00:32:17,799 like hurtful to them and then it's attack on them, and it's which is 460 00:32:17,839 --> 00:32:21,559 not It's just ridiculous. I mean, that's just what men do. Men 461 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,799 debate, men have disagreements. They can get heated if it gets to the 462 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:28,839 point where people are you ready to fight a dude. You know, dudes 463 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,839 can step outside and like wrestle it out or whatever, you know what I 464 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:36,039 mean, and let it go. But we're in this weird feminized, passive 465 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:40,680 aggressive situation where people have an Internet exchange with people and they hold a grudge 466 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,440 for five years and then you know, it's just it's just really weird or 467 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,880 they you know, the whole woke culture like it's all based on this envy 468 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,960 cancel culture. Really, I think it's just a technique of trying to bring 469 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,559 other people down who are doing well, and so because you're envious, you 470 00:32:58,599 --> 00:33:01,400 want to get them canceled, you want to shut them down because you feel 471 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:07,440 like, you know, you should have had the job or the media outlet 472 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,200 that they have or something like that. So that's a big part of its 473 00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:15,160 envy, which is again another kind of trait of a egalitarian, feminized society 474 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:21,640 that's all based around security. It's based around sensitivity. It's based around how 475 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,400 people feel as a result, and that means that we're not basing our society 476 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:32,720 around logic logos, around objective principles, around true and false, good and 477 00:33:32,759 --> 00:33:37,359 bad. We're basing it around how it makes me feel. And that's all 478 00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:44,079 very feminine when it comes to those are feminine virtues. They can be good 479 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:47,039 for women to have those types of nurturing virtues, they don't work for organizing 480 00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:51,880 a society, and so we're in a situation where the society is intentionally being 481 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:58,119 organized around those feminine qualities, which again are not in themselves bad per se. 482 00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:04,000 Right, women need those rights to nurture children, they're made that way, 483 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,559 but to make the nurturing of a child trait the norm for the society 484 00:34:07,599 --> 00:34:12,400 creates the nanny state, and the nanny state is happy to have everybody policed 485 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:19,760 and controlled on the basis of irrational things like being able to cancel somebody because 486 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,280 they hurt your feelings. And that's just insane. And that's that kind of 487 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,840 a society. Can It won't last, It will collapse, and then we'll 488 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,920 be back into some sort of brutality situation, and all of those people would 489 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,239 be relying upon the masculine power and force which can protect them, defend them, 490 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:40,880 build the water systems, you know, engineer the bridges, et cetera. 491 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,079 Right, you're going to be back to relying on the patriarchy, which 492 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:46,719 is the way it should be. So yeah, I mean, there's no 493 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:52,159 easy answers to how to solve the grift or problem. And I think that, 494 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,199 like when in my twenties, I can remember when I get pretty serious 495 00:34:54,199 --> 00:35:00,960 about my expressing of Christianity. You know, it was really immature, and 496 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:06,840 I was fairly new to this whole sphere of things, and I thought it 497 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,480 was my job to like publicly project all of this, and I thought that 498 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:15,440 was a good action to do. And I think there's been some really good 499 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,599 studies. I put a study up on this or an article on this on 500 00:35:19,639 --> 00:35:22,480 my sub stack some months back, and there was a guy who was analyzing 501 00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:29,480 the motivations of this kind of extreme religiosity and a lot of it stems, 502 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:37,159 I think, from people's insecurities and sensitivities and psychological problems. So if you're 503 00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:40,400 an insecure person, and maybe even if you're insecure about your religious decisions, 504 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:47,000 you might do all of this external projecting to try to try to soothe your 505 00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:52,400 own doubts and try to assure yourself that you're actually committed to this. I 506 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,320 thought that was a really profound just a psychology paper. I'm not saying all 507 00:35:55,400 --> 00:36:00,920 religion is explained only by psychological motivation. I'm just simply saying that psychological motivations 508 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,159 can at times help us to understand why we might at times see these bizarre 509 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:13,679 manifestations of people expressing extreme forms of religiosity in the public sphere, which we 510 00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:16,400 can say is Twitter and the Internet now, you know, and I think 511 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:22,039 it probably comes from insecurity envy, you know, soy rage, all of 512 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:25,480 those, all those types of things. But the grifter thing, that's maybe 513 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:28,840 a different thing. As part of it's that. But then the grifters are 514 00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:32,440 you know, there's people who are pretending to be abased in trot or whatever, 515 00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:37,559 and they're probably not just because they see that it's a rising trend. 516 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,360 Yeah, And that's one thing that I've noticed definitely over the last year, 517 00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:45,599 because it's like with the rise of Donald Trump back in like twenty sixteen up 518 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:50,360 until now, you see a lot, Yeah, you see a lot more 519 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:57,800 of like a right wing revival but obviously since October seventh, some of these 520 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,159 right wingers you could quite us and their values whenever they're willing to shout people 521 00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:05,639 down over disagreements on that little country over the Middle East, which has been 522 00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:09,400 absolutely fascinating, And for me it wasn't unpredictable at all, because I more 523 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,800 so look at things from a human psychology standpoint, where you understand much to 524 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,440 your point that people are, you know, when it comes to their personal 525 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:20,519 beliefs, they're going to double down, triple down on them sometimes whenever they're 526 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:23,559 called to the carpet. I think you and I are both probably intellectually honest 527 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:28,639 enough people that you know a lot of positions that we hold, if called 528 00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:34,639 into sufficient question with sufficient evidence, would probably change our minds exactly. But 529 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,280 I think a lot of people when it comes to Donald Trump is like the 530 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,400 perfect example where like you see, the whole left half of America will say 531 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,400 he's the worst person ever and you can't convince them otherwise. And the whole 532 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,599 right half of America will tell you he's the best person in the world and 533 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:50,719 you cannot tell them otherwise. It's been a fascinating thing to watch and like, 534 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,719 if you can just remove all your emotions and all the way you feel 535 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,960 about Trump or Biden. You could just say, holy shit, like people 536 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,880 are just acting in like their most base nature way where they feel like they're 537 00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:06,400 fighting off their you know, the tiger that's on their back essentially. Yeah, 538 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,719 I think that's a very perceptive analysis. My friend David Patrick Carey, 539 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,760 he's done a lot of live streams where he talks about how the there's a 540 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,000 pattern to this, you know, rise of dissident right, whatever we want 541 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:22,119 to talk about. You know, we had Trump coming on the scene, 542 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,039 we had these you know, kind of wild versions of right wing stuff that 543 00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:30,480 I think we're pretty quickly co opted alt right and all that when when in 544 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:35,599 a FED direction, I was always warning people against that stuff. And then 545 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:38,320 we had dissident Right, and then we had you know, Peterson played a 546 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:45,119 huge role obviously in people beginning to kind of question normy stuff, sort of 547 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,519 get Trump, and then right after Trump we kind of get the rise of 548 00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:53,559 Peterson. Then it turns into Tate redpill stuff. So there's been this interesting 549 00:38:53,639 --> 00:39:00,480 series of figures who have appeared to shift the focus of the disc course everyone 550 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:02,840 else. And then now we've got Elon Musk kind of coming to the floor 551 00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:08,719 of his role. Everybody always asks what's their motives? I always hate this 552 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:15,039 debate because you can never figure out people's motives. How will you ever know 553 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,760 a person's motives unless you, you know, have some recording of them telling 554 00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,559 you their motives or something, right, it's just a it's just a stupid, 555 00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:24,719 ridiculous debate to debate people's motives. I mean, anybody can be deceiving 556 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:29,000 and deceptive, you know, deceive you on the internet. Any of these 557 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,920 very powerful people, I'm sure have to engage in some degree of subterfuge and 558 00:39:35,079 --> 00:39:38,199 concealing their real motivation. So it's just an annoying constant. I'm not saying 559 00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:40,920 you did this, but like people anytime I go on a show, they're 560 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,039 like, what do you think of Donald Trump? What do you think of 561 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:45,480 Elon Musk? And I'm so sick of that question, just like I don't 562 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:47,760 I mean, I don't know their motives. You want me to tell you, 563 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,480 like, I don't know, and I don't care about those motives because 564 00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:53,400 it's something I can never really know anyway, So you're asking me to, 565 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:59,280 you know, give you information on topics I don't have access to So it's 566 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:00,920 like, well, what are the mo of Gping? I don't know. 567 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,920 He's probably not a good guy, but I mean, I don't know his 568 00:40:04,039 --> 00:40:10,440 motivations. So I think there's all those distracting questions which don't really matter. 569 00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:17,639 And then we have, you know, people trying to find authentic Christianity and 570 00:40:17,679 --> 00:40:22,719 tradition, authentic religion, and you get these people, these figures who kind 571 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,639 of spur that question, which can be a good thing, right, Obviously 572 00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:30,119 I don't agree with everything Trump says or Peterson says or Tate says, but 573 00:40:30,519 --> 00:40:37,760 the questions that are caused and raised from those figures, then I think leads 574 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:42,880 to people in a lot of interesting directions. Maybe I'm just maybe I'm just 575 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,960 rambling at this point, but I forgot where what the question was or where 576 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,559 we were going. Yeah, that's okay. Basically I noticed a lot of 577 00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:52,840 stuff that you said there, and like a lot of the social analysis is 578 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,119 more useful than necessarily the figures themselves. But basically, like you just see 579 00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:59,519 a lot of people kind of act very very almost religiously when it comes to 580 00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:02,760 political Oh that's right, yeah, Like yeah, people people, I think 581 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,800 humans are fundamentally religious I do agree with that that analysis, and that doesn't 582 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:13,679 mean that you can't strive to be objective and to refine your worldview or your 583 00:41:13,679 --> 00:41:19,920 position based on understanding. I mean I've changed my position a few times, 584 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,480 like not zillions of times. But you know, I was raised Baptists, 585 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:30,800 got into Calvinism. Uh, then I became uh Rumman Catholic, and then 586 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:36,320 started questioning that based on information that I encountered. So and then you know 587 00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:40,719 the changes continue on from there to eventually be Orthodox. So yeah, I 588 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,920 think, uh, there's there's I don't know what the perfect balance is to 589 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,880 that. There is no perfect easy answer to that. It's something that I 590 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:53,519 think you have to get learned experience, learned wisdom from It's not just a 591 00:41:53,599 --> 00:41:57,800 question that's solved by knowledge. I think when you're young, you you think 592 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,840 that you can solve all these problems, like you're some kind of machine with 593 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,480 more and more information and data, but you actually need the wisdom of lived 594 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,360 experience to apply the information in at the right time, in the right way. 595 00:42:07,639 --> 00:42:13,280 So that's something that only comes with age, and not everybody gets wisdom. 596 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,239 I see so many people today, like you're pointing out with like the 597 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:21,480 online uh, you know, pretending to be righteous sphere and I mean, 598 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,280 to me, a lot of these people like they come off as like obvious 599 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,280 fakes and to so I'm like, where is there anybody nobody has any discernment. 600 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,559 Nobody can discern between like you know, true and false, you know, 601 00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:36,199 good and bad? Here my life just went out my bad or does 602 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,400 it? But so, but yeah, And I'm not saying that people can't 603 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,559 debate morals. I'm just saying, like, I've always found it distasteful when 604 00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:52,199 people take this like super hyper moral approach, as many people do on Twitter 605 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,039 and places like that, when they're like, you know, like you said, 606 00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:59,000 like you were an atheist last year and now you're like the super hyper 607 00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:02,840 moral. It just really greats on my nerves. But you know, it's 608 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,599 a mistake I guess we all make. But I think, yeah, so 609 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:13,480 worldviews are religious. People hold them in a religious way. And yeah, 610 00:43:13,559 --> 00:43:19,920 most of the time people are not motivated by logic. They're motivated by emotion, 611 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:27,880 psychological things. They're motivated by based desires. Yeah, Rachel, and 612 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:30,599 you try to turn this light back on. Yeah you're good, gonna get 613 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:32,760 dark. Yeah, that's all right, you still look good. Don't worry. 614 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,559 Peterson was right about people thinking they can fix the whole world when they 615 00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:40,360 can't even clean their own room. To her point, yeah, I think 616 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,519 that was a really really good point. I think that did a lot for 617 00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:46,320 people, and like it sounds so simple and it is essentially a platitude, 618 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,920 but I do think it's useful for people to at least consider, as saying 619 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,239 goes, you to consider the log in your own eye before you consider the 620 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,880 speck in your neighbors. I might be butchering that, but I think that's 621 00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:01,719 kind of the ethos that she's kind of getting there. Yeah, I think 622 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:06,000 a lot of people think that morals is kind of just the easiest thing to 623 00:44:06,039 --> 00:44:09,039 go to is to just go after, you know, be this really annoying, 624 00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:14,840 preachy person. I don't know, it's just I feel like I grew 625 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,719 out of that my twenties, so it's not me again. I'm not calling 626 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:21,719 out anybody specifically. I don't even have anybody I'm thinking of in mind. 627 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,960 In my mind, I'm just thinking of I don't know. There's a lot 628 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,880 of young people on Twitter that I think probably you know, right, they're 629 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:36,679 new through religion or whatever, and they're kind of like there's a tendency towards 630 00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:39,159 fanaticism. One thing I'm noticing, and this is my suspicion, is that 631 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,559 a lot of what's going on on the online sphere, I suspect with all 632 00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:46,719 of these debates, and I'm not saying that it means any of the positions 633 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:52,760 are false, just from a strategic social engineering societal control vantage point, I 634 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:59,480 suspect that a lot of different positions are being intentionally engineered towards more and more 635 00:44:59,559 --> 00:45:07,400 radical, more and more atomizing positions to foster and foment the debate within society. 636 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:13,400 So the h and I agree with many of the points of you know, 637 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,880 the red pill in the sense of like critiques of you know, feminism, 638 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:24,000 critiques of problems in modern you know, marital situations, the fault divorce. 639 00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:29,199 I agree with all that stuff, sure, but I think like this 640 00:45:29,639 --> 00:45:32,079 one sphere, the side of the sphere I totally disagree with is like the 641 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:37,400 migtai in cell group that ends up pushing sex bots and you know, this 642 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:43,800 kind of stuff that I think is like an intentional radicalization that parallels the intentional 643 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,440 radicalization of the extreme feminist groups. So I see, I see that that 644 00:45:49,599 --> 00:45:55,159 was actually a mention. One of the NATO documents mentioned intentional fostering of trolling 645 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,440 and Internet division. It was the NATOS docu. I think it's a cognitive 646 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:05,880 warfare document talks about this. Oh that's that's actually fascinating. I never even 647 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,360 heard of that, but yeah, I agree in like that end of the 648 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,920 red pill MiG Taw situation. It's like they kind of get a lot of 649 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,960 the diagnosis rate, but their prescription is just absolutely ridiculous. And I know 650 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,840 you've engaged with Rollo and some of the other you know what, I would 651 00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:24,800 say are better red pill guys, more of like the actual red pell guys 652 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:29,159 who just kind of stick to the praxeology of things. I think those guys 653 00:46:29,159 --> 00:46:31,239 are kind of like the ideal where they're not telling you how to live. 654 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,639 They're just saying, hey, here's this information, you figure out how to 655 00:46:34,679 --> 00:46:37,119 live from there. But a lot of people can't separate the two, right, 656 00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:40,079 So a lot of people they can't get the person. And I experienced 657 00:46:40,079 --> 00:46:43,719 that myself. They're like, oh it's Jay Dyer. It's like, well, 658 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,000 I mean, what who so what right? I mean? The information 659 00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:50,840 stands on its own, the arguments down on their own right, irrespective of 660 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,199 me. I mean, i'd be imagine saying, well, I don't like 661 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,760 my math teacher, so two plus two isn't four because I don't like my 662 00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,960 mathews. The butthole. That's just so dumb. But that's the equivalent of 663 00:47:00,159 --> 00:47:02,400 It's like the arguments, the information, the data stands on its own, 664 00:47:04,119 --> 00:47:08,599 and so there is a lot of good information in you know, the rational 665 00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:13,000 mail, that kind of stuff. I was read and reading Rollo since probably 666 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,280 I don't know, twenty twelve thirteen somewhere in there. I used to read 667 00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:23,360 Rusha's Return of Kings religiously for however many years he had that. So you 668 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,360 know, that's a sphere that I'm familiar with. I read the game when 669 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,800 it just Strauss is the game when it came out. I read, you 670 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,760 know, a lot of those texts Mystery method, So you know, I'm 671 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,239 familiar with that sphere and that whole mindset, whether it's red Pill or Pway 672 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,480 or whatever. So I think they have insights. Then I think that when 673 00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:45,800 people have those insights, then what happens is you get the intentional diversion of 674 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:51,760 the information over into these extremes, or they just make it about the persons 675 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,199 to deflect from the topics being discussed. And so my wife and I were 676 00:47:57,199 --> 00:48:00,440 having discussion brothers the other day and she was saying, you think that there's 677 00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:06,159 the the dangers in this stuff? I said, yeah, because if you 678 00:48:06,199 --> 00:48:09,920 think about it, there is. I think the system knows, for example, 679 00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:14,960 that because we've had one hundred hundred and fifty years of feminism, the 680 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:16,840 system knows there's going to be a reaction eventually to that. People are going 681 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,000 to say, wait a minute, if we've had the feminizing of all areas 682 00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:23,760 of our society, if all the HR people and the CEOs and the professors 683 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:29,599 and the managers are all women, now people are going to start noticing and 684 00:48:29,639 --> 00:48:35,920 reacting in some way. And so the initial counter reaction is you could say, 685 00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:40,239 might have even begun with Paul Elam and you know, people like the 686 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,559 MiG taal spearhead your head back in the day, it's back like late twenty 687 00:48:45,639 --> 00:48:52,280 twenty fourteen is somewhere around there. So then the characterization then is that well, 688 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,519 that's all this group of people, they all believe it is this over 689 00:48:53,559 --> 00:49:00,679 here, that its worse members. Yeah, and that's not accurate because this 690 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,199 movement ended up splintering in a lot of different directions where I met like a 691 00:49:05,199 --> 00:49:10,400 guy in twenty twelve or thirteen thirteen fourteen, somewhere in there he had written 692 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,760 a book about divorce laws in Canada because he gotten screwed up. He'd been 693 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:21,000 screwed over in divorce courts in Canada, and his book was about that whole 694 00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:28,400 changing the justice system in Canada to favor whatever women said, even if the 695 00:49:28,519 --> 00:49:32,320 women were not fit to be the guardians, right, custodians whatever the children. 696 00:49:34,679 --> 00:49:39,639 And so at that time, right the focus was either pickup artist community 697 00:49:40,079 --> 00:49:45,480 or men's rights concerned with family courts. And then it's sort of like, 698 00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:52,199 I guess what Cernovich puts out his documentary challenging the feminist narratives, and he 699 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:57,360 had that feminist woman in there and all that, and I think that took. 700 00:49:57,599 --> 00:50:01,079 Then the title red pill right became kind of like associated with in general 701 00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:07,639 anything to do with the manosphere, when in reality, the manosphere was you 702 00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:09,440 know, if you had if you read Return of Kings, you were reading 703 00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:15,480 stuff that was manosphere. Uh, pick up artists, philosophy, religion, 704 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,079 economics, all of that. It was all over the place, right, 705 00:50:20,559 --> 00:50:23,239 So it was it was pulling from a lot of different arenas, and then 706 00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,000 you had certain people, uh, you know Roycy. I read Roycy for 707 00:50:28,119 --> 00:50:31,480 years and years and years, you know, and he was focusing on the 708 00:50:31,519 --> 00:50:36,159 cathedral, the culture, the culture war, feminism, and the culture. 709 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,480 He might talk about some of the pu A points here and there, but 710 00:50:38,519 --> 00:50:44,000 he also talked about a lot of uh manosphere stuff, men's rights and all 711 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,440 that statistics, you know, abortion, all of the stuff. Right, 712 00:50:47,679 --> 00:50:52,639 So it's it was very pretty diverse. And then what happened, I think 713 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:58,559 with when the Tate sphere came to the fore and adopted the term red pill, 714 00:50:58,639 --> 00:51:02,679 then it became associated with the Tape sphere, and it then all became 715 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,320 about Andrew Tate. And then it's not about the topics that are being discussed 716 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:14,639 and whether the data matches up with this or that claim. Right. So 717 00:51:14,679 --> 00:51:17,079 I was just telling Jamie that I think that the system that there would be 718 00:51:17,119 --> 00:51:21,760 a counter reaction. And I'm not saying that specifically an individual. I don't 719 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:25,119 have any information about any specific individual being like the catalyst or and I'm just 720 00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:30,760 saying that the system's perspective, I think, is to anticipate the counter reaction. 721 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:35,159 You can think of the same thing. When you have communist revolution and 722 00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:39,800 you have what's called the counter revolutionaries, smart cunning people from the system will 723 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:45,000 also want to co opt the counter revolutionary movement as they control the revolutionary movement. 724 00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:50,400 And I think, I mean even I think Lenin talked about controlled opposition, 725 00:51:50,559 --> 00:51:52,119 right. So this is a well known thing and it happens in the 726 00:51:52,119 --> 00:51:57,840 sphere as well, where they will study and try to steer and radicalize in 727 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:04,000 various ways these types of counter reactions. We've seen it exactly with the right 728 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,840 wing movement when Trump, when Trump came to the fore, what did they 729 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:14,079 do. They had this this giant thing go on at Charlottesville, right, 730 00:52:14,679 --> 00:52:20,800 and that ended up destroying and dissipating that whole movement very effectively, we get 731 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,480 another dissident right type of movement that occurs. Then when do we get J 732 00:52:24,159 --> 00:52:30,599 six right, We get that that effectively does a similar thing. So the 733 00:52:30,639 --> 00:52:37,039 system always does this where they try to take the counter revolution, the counter 734 00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:43,079 reaction and do whatever they can to either fragment it, destroy it, neutralize 735 00:52:43,119 --> 00:52:47,239 it, or turn it into some just lunatic thing. You know, we've 736 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:52,719 had for example, many I n CEL dudes go off the hook and go 737 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:57,400 crazy and go shoot up something, right. So, I mean, I 738 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,639 don't know the specifics of those cases. I'm not trying to say, oh, 739 00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:02,239 it was an nkal, I don't know that, but I'm just saying 740 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,440 that, whether it is or isn't, like they'll take that and say, 741 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,119 oh, here, you know, it'll become this national needs it's been net 742 00:53:08,119 --> 00:53:12,440 effect of it. It's the national Like Elliott Rodgers, right, wasn't he 743 00:53:12,599 --> 00:53:16,639 like, oh he's like the first I NCEL guy. That was the That's 744 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:21,079 kind of what they pinned him down. That's how they framed it exactly. 745 00:53:21,199 --> 00:53:28,280 So anyway, I guess I'm rambling, but that's an example of how movements 746 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:35,800 ideas that gained traction can be steered and neutralized. Yeah. That's kind of 747 00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,440 the way that I see Trump's role in the twenty twenty four election, because 748 00:53:38,519 --> 00:53:40,679 I mean, if you look at kind of how everything played out, I 749 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:45,440 don't know how anybody can look at twenty twenty and still say that Trump is 750 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,880 on the outside of everything. Would really like there is there's not a lot 751 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,719 of daylight between him and Biden when it comes to policies, other than maybe 752 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,920 like Trump wants lower taxes and less immigration. Biden wants more taxes and more 753 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,280 immigration. I mean, other than that, you know, when it comes 754 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,639 to Israel, foreign policy, a great deal of many things. They're kind 755 00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:08,000 of locks up on a lot of stuff. So I understand the whole deal 756 00:54:08,039 --> 00:54:10,440 with oh, well, you know, the establishment hates him and everything. 757 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:14,199 But really, I don't think this stuff is as meaningful as people want to 758 00:54:14,199 --> 00:54:16,119 make it out to be. I really think it's meant to just recycle more 759 00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:20,840 money into the RNC and the DNC because Trump is the perfect boogeyman. If 760 00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:22,960 there's no boogeyman, nobody's gonna get paid. So as long as Trump's around, 761 00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:25,840 the Democrats get paid, the Republics get paid. I mean, he 762 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:30,599 raised two hundred and forty million dollars on you know, election fraud lawsuits and 763 00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:34,239 then pocketed two hundred and ten million of it. So like, where's all 764 00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,679 this money going? And why are you know, so many people flocking to 765 00:54:37,679 --> 00:54:39,119 Trump's his figure? I mean, if they really wanted to get rid of 766 00:54:39,199 --> 00:54:42,960 him, they would have ron palled him essentially, just kept them completely out 767 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,679 of all the news and everything like that, and he would have never been 768 00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:47,559 a thing. But for some reason, he was just so propped up, 769 00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:51,480 and even you know, Hillary Clinton said it was the pid piper strategy. 770 00:54:51,599 --> 00:54:55,039 So this kind of drags it back to politics. But the general theme here 771 00:54:55,119 --> 00:54:58,920 is that I think that a lot of this stuff, like you said, 772 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,800 has kind of propped up art officially, so that way people still continue to 773 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:07,639 buy into the you know, the mainstream conversation and the ideas surrounding that. 774 00:55:07,559 --> 00:55:15,239 Yeah, I think anytime somebody begins to speak against the defined allowable magic circle 775 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:21,559 discussion topics, they immediately are reminded that you can't do that. So, 776 00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:27,639 you know, for example, Reagan talked about the Trilateral Commission, and Reagan 777 00:55:27,679 --> 00:55:34,440 got warned with a bullet right, So similar thing happens has happened with other 778 00:55:34,519 --> 00:55:37,519 people. There's you know, you just you can't there's certain things you can't 779 00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:39,519 talk about. Now. I don't know if Trump was, like quote warned. 780 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:47,400 One good analysis I heard was that Trump initially was going to not take 781 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:53,000 Republican RNC money and then he would be independent. But then what happened in 782 00:55:53,039 --> 00:55:59,679 the first term, supposedly was that the deal was that if he did take 783 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:05,519 there see money, he would also have to make a compromise on who would 784 00:56:05,519 --> 00:56:08,440 be in his cabinet, and so that's I don't know if I mean, 785 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:14,280 that's just what I've heard from people who presumably would know that that's the main 786 00:56:14,559 --> 00:56:19,760 source of the problem with why things were back why the swamp wasn't drained in 787 00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:22,519 the first administration. I've never you know, I kind of checked out of 788 00:56:22,559 --> 00:56:29,920 politics back in the I mean, I will watch stuff and find it interesting, 789 00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:34,039 but national politics I think has been kind of a kind of a puppet 790 00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:37,519 show for a long time. I mean, I definitely think Biden is pretty 791 00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:43,840 terrible, So I mean, just even for morale and just you know, 792 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:47,159 like I mean, even if just Trump is there symbolically, it's like still 793 00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:51,280 seems like it might be better than Biden. But I mean sure, but 794 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:57,559 I do understand the sort of apathy about like presidential politics. To me, 795 00:56:57,599 --> 00:57:00,639 it's just kind of ridiculous. And I've thought it was ridiculous since the rom 796 00:57:00,679 --> 00:57:04,000 Pouls here, like you said, I mean, I was there pro romp 797 00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,320 Paul at the time, and I remember them, you know, like they 798 00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:12,000 just excluded him from everything and that was enough to at that time to neutralize 799 00:57:12,039 --> 00:57:16,119 Ron Paul. So yeah, I don't I don't know what to say about 800 00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:22,320 the Trump phenomenon, I didn't really have super high expectations. So yeah, 801 00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,599 I think that probably Trump is just kind of a boomer on a lot of 802 00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:31,880 issues, like like unbending on you know, areas which just seemed absurd to 803 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:38,440 me. I mean, the Stabby program, it was ridiculous. His position 804 00:57:38,519 --> 00:57:45,280 on bitcoin is totally boomer. I mean of just I just think that there's 805 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:52,880 certain issues that boomers and evangelical boomers they will never It's just they're never going 806 00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,480 to get out of that. They're never going to question like pre millennial Zionism. 807 00:57:57,519 --> 00:58:01,719 If they're a boomer Christian, they're never going to question uh stonks and 808 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:07,639 the dollar which is fiat and worthless. Ultimately, they're never gonna conceive of 809 00:58:07,639 --> 00:58:13,480 what big point is. I mean, they're just I mean, if a 810 00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,519 boomer can question JFK, that's I mean, that's all we can expect. 811 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,000 That's all. I'm serious like, because the only things that boomers were allowed 812 00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:29,320 to question were like a war man or right, I mean, UFOs, 813 00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,000 JFK and the war. That's literally all the boomers were allowed to question. 814 00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:37,320 And that's pretty much all they have ever questioned. So they're in policy, 815 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,679 they're not going to question it for him. But so what's the point, 816 00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:45,719 right, Okay, so one thing that we're just waiting for. If I 817 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,719 make that joke, they Boomers will get mad. But I was going to 818 00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,440 make a cleansing joke. But it's just like in the next five to ten 819 00:58:52,519 --> 00:58:55,280 year we were making this joke on my life. I love Boomers by the 820 00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:59,800 way, that that are at least not evil. So I'm not I'm not 821 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,519 here bom is just I've been making boomer joke for ten years. We were 822 00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:09,199 talking about not the great the great cleansing, but we were talking about uh 823 00:59:10,599 --> 00:59:15,519 so basically in five to ten years, I mean, uh, we're going 824 00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:17,360 to be ruled by the gen X. Man, it's the gen X. 825 00:59:17,639 --> 00:59:21,639 It took me a second. Yeah, we're going to be ruled by the 826 00:59:21,679 --> 00:59:23,960 gen X. Are our new overlords, That's what I'm trying to Yeah, 827 00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:29,559 it's time to start thinking about Hey, uh, we've at least got a 828 00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:34,840 little more open minded us with conspiracy reality, so to speak, with the 829 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,280 gen X than we do with any of the Boomers. So sure, maybe 830 00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:42,519 we can hope for things getting better with the gen X as our overlords. 831 00:59:43,239 --> 00:59:49,280 So well, when it comes to like Ron Paul and libertarianism. I understand 832 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,840 a lot of more dissident right wingers and perhaps some of your frustrations of libertarians 833 00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,559 when it comes to like the egalitarian mindset and a lot of like the Enlightenment 834 00:59:57,599 --> 01:00:05,039 ideals, But when it comes to let's say, more like right wing libertarians 835 01:00:05,119 --> 01:00:07,960 kind of like Ron Paul or maybe even Stefan Maulinu, who I think is 836 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:09,920 pretty good and I know you debated him. I know you and him have 837 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:15,280 some disagreements, But where would be your significant areas of disagreement with them in 838 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,920 their worldview? Because this is, like I said, this has been something 839 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:27,239 that's really been racking my brain lately. Well, I mean, I guess 840 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:32,239 you could. You could conceivably have a libertarian position that has a high place 841 01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:38,119 for religion. Conceivably. I don't think that's necessarily not possible. I think 842 01:00:38,159 --> 01:00:47,480 that the typical disagreements revolve around Enlightenment ideas of universalized human nature, which you 843 01:00:47,639 --> 01:00:58,039 kind of already hinted at, and the idea that I wouldn't see religion as 844 01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:07,280 like an appendix or religious commitments as something that are a tool for society, 845 01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:12,519 but rather fundamental to society. So I think the main difference I can think 846 01:01:12,519 --> 01:01:19,039 of right away would be my ideal scenario might be more along the lines of 847 01:01:20,559 --> 01:01:28,840 symphonia between church and state rather than negative liberty minimizing the state. And there's 848 01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,760 no easy answers to any of these questions because I'm well aware of the problems 849 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:39,920 of the state having too much authority. But the Orthodox idea is symphonia, 850 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:45,639 so you have ideally, what you would have is a strong state that has 851 01:01:45,679 --> 01:01:50,679 the ability to do certain functions. Obviously they're limited in other ways, so 852 01:01:50,679 --> 01:01:55,440 you have spheres of authority, and they can't step over the sphere of the 853 01:01:55,519 --> 01:02:00,480 religious world, which products a lot of protects a lot of the rights and 854 01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:07,039 values of the individuals. So the state's not really the protector of anything in 855 01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,559 the spiritual domain per se, but they have a function that the spiritual domain 856 01:02:09,599 --> 01:02:13,280 doesn't have, So there's spheres of authority. Was really important, and that's 857 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,400 why the traditional image of a it's an eagle with two heads, and that's 858 01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:22,360 church and state. So it's not like the papal model would be one headed 859 01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:28,000 eagle with a church and a crown, because the pope is kind of head 860 01:02:28,039 --> 01:02:32,119 of state and the church, whereas the Byzantine classic model is and you still 861 01:02:32,159 --> 01:02:36,519 see this in the symbol of Russian government is church and state, not saying 862 01:02:36,559 --> 01:02:39,920 the Russian government is simplyy. It's not, but that's the meaning of the 863 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:44,599 symbol. So the ideal that we would have is something like that. How 864 01:02:44,639 --> 01:02:49,880 exactly that's fleshed out in terms of, you know, what laws are going 865 01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:52,159 to be in place to restrict the private public sphere, I mean, I 866 01:02:52,199 --> 01:02:55,960 don't have any easy answers to that. That's super complex questions. I would 867 01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:00,360 probably agree more with a lot of the libertarian Austrian school on those kinds of 868 01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:05,480 questions about the market and that kind of stuff. But main point would probably 869 01:03:05,519 --> 01:03:12,119 just be the role in place of the church in a society that the Enlightenment 870 01:03:12,239 --> 01:03:19,920 was pretty pretty stringent upon separating and basically having the There's a good Russian philosopher 871 01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,239 who wrote a book. His name is Pablo notaza Of, and he wrote 872 01:03:22,239 --> 01:03:30,440 a book called Reflections of a Russian Statesman, and in either the second or 873 01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,920 third chapter is a really good analysis where he says that you think that when 874 01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,039 you have the separation of church and state, you're going to get this independence, 875 01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:42,960 but what you actually get is the state becomes the new church, and 876 01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:51,960 so he made a fascinating argument that actually the healthy functioning of a healthy estate 877 01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:57,280 which isn't out of control, must have this institution of the church. I've 878 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:01,159 always found that to be a pretty pretty fascinating wrong argument. There's another good 879 01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:06,280 critique of this position, or just the state in general, from these kind 880 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:12,920 of enlightenment perspectives. I think it's an essay by auto On Hobsburg. So 881 01:04:13,039 --> 01:04:15,079 actually, some of the monarchists have written, I think pretty good critiques of 882 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:23,079 libertarianism and republicanism. Not to say I agree with every position that some Habsburg 883 01:04:23,119 --> 01:04:25,599 guy says, but I think I thought that was a good essay critiquing. 884 01:04:26,239 --> 01:04:31,719 I think it's called auto ottov On Hobsburg's critique of republicanism would be a good 885 01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:39,760 essay. To read the Pabianazz book on Reflections of Russian Statesman. It's a 886 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:46,159 good book, a good read. Yeah, that's I think. Another thing 887 01:04:46,159 --> 01:04:51,599 that happens is that you get this assumption in the libertarian perspective that just by 888 01:04:51,639 --> 01:04:59,960 studying praxeology, I can get to ethics and I can get to metaphysical idea 889 01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:03,199 is and positions, and I don't think you can. It doesn't make sense 890 01:05:03,239 --> 01:05:09,280 to me. It's wrongheaded. So I would say that while praxeology can definitely 891 01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:13,840 give us information and data, just like if I were to read you know, 892 01:05:14,079 --> 01:05:17,320 Rollo's book on praxeology of the Rational Male in the Rational Mind and all 893 01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:21,119 that and how humans act, I could definitely get a lot of that data. 894 01:05:21,239 --> 01:05:27,440 But it doesn't it's not going to give me the ability to make a 895 01:05:27,519 --> 01:05:30,119 value judgment. It is not. I can't get an aught from it, 896 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,360 is right, And so studying what happens cannot tell me what ought to happen. 897 01:05:34,719 --> 01:05:40,760 And that's why we need the religious system and functions as the means to 898 01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:44,000 get the aught. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, no it 899 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,920 does. So then I guess my follow up question to that would be preps 900 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:54,400 out a question one Jordan Peterson basically lays out that like, when it comes 901 01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:58,920 to atheists that they believe as if they they act as if they believe in 902 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,360 God, would you kind of say that's a valid statement or would you disagree 903 01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,719 with that? And if you do, where would you depart from that? 904 01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:09,480 No? I totally agree with that. That's a fact. That's a critique 905 01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:15,920 that I mean I've gotten it from I think Monson. You know, back 906 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:17,719 back when I was a Calvinist, when I was eighteen nineteen twenty, I 907 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:25,320 was reading Greg Monson and Cornelis Vantil and they made that argument frequently. So 908 01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:30,239 that's kind of an argument that's been around for a while. Maybe even you 909 01:06:30,239 --> 01:06:32,440 could argue Doscievsky and makes this kind of an argument. So no, I 910 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,360 would totally agree with that, Okay, So then I guess the next question 911 01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:42,719 would be why do you think it's just the culture and the civilization around atheists 912 01:06:42,719 --> 01:06:47,400 that kind of keep them behaving in a rightful way? Because I'm agnostic and 913 01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,519 I, like I said earlier, I've been questioning a lot of my foundations 914 01:06:50,599 --> 01:06:54,840 over the last couple of months, and you know, I do kind of 915 01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,400 run into the question, Okay, well, why, you know, why 916 01:06:58,440 --> 01:07:01,000 do I behave the way that I do? Because I don't have necessarily religious 917 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,119 grounding. Although I believe religious values and religion for people is generally good, 918 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:11,599 I just never had the same experience that would convince me overwhelmingly if there was 919 01:07:11,639 --> 01:07:15,079 a God. But I see the utility and religion, so maybe you call 920 01:07:15,159 --> 01:07:16,960 me consequentials in that respect, where I see that like, Okay, the 921 01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:23,480 consequence of people believing in religion is that society tends to flourish. But once 922 01:07:23,519 --> 01:07:27,360 again, that doesn't feel right to say, because it's like I don't believe 923 01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:33,480 in it, but I understand the consequences. Yeah, I think you're right 924 01:07:33,519 --> 01:07:41,280 there that like that would be a pragmatic argument. I was reading this, 925 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,920 reading this book on the CIA's approach to religion, especially during the Cold War. 926 01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,840 Its it's really good book of uncovering. It's called Aaron into the Wilderness, 927 01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:51,199 The History of the CIA in Religion, And I just finished the chapter 928 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:56,320 where that guy was saying basically what you just said that during especially during the 929 01:07:56,360 --> 01:08:00,000 Cold War, but even prior to that, and even still the CIA really 930 01:08:00,239 --> 01:08:04,800 saw the value of whatever religion in terms of the region that they were studying 931 01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:10,960 and wanting to maybe have a regime change or infant or project soft power into 932 01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:17,439 Religion is seen as essentially a tool that helps the society. It's the glue 933 01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:23,720 of a society. Perhaps it's the you know, the moral meaning source of 934 01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,319 a society. You know, this is all kind of stuff that Peterson would 935 01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:30,479 say. I think those things are observably the case. Now, whether that 936 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,840 means that religion is false or true. Is It's a different question, right. 937 01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:42,399 So again, like psychological reports have value. But if I were to 938 01:08:42,399 --> 01:08:45,680 give a psychological report, like you know, oh, well, you know 939 01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:49,680 people believe in God because this is bertrand Russell's army says people believe in God 940 01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:55,600 because they're weak. Well, you know that's like that's a fallacy first of 941 01:08:55,640 --> 01:09:00,319 all, so that doesn't prove right wrong. Reasons that people come to believe 942 01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:04,479 something does, in it self dictator determine whether the belief is true or false, 943 01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:12,520 because I might, for example, have bad motivations or bad reasons by 944 01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:17,880 which I believe something true. Right, So maybe you know, you say, 945 01:09:18,079 --> 01:09:20,520 Jay, why do you believe too plus two's four? And I say, 946 01:09:20,720 --> 01:09:25,960 I do believe touplus TuS four, and I believe it because Bill caused 947 01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:29,039 me, came to me in a dream last night and told me, Okay, 948 01:09:29,119 --> 01:09:30,960 that's not a good reason to believe the tupless use for me, but 949 01:09:31,039 --> 01:09:34,319 it's true. Right, So I can have bad reasons for true beliefs, 950 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:40,920 and so likewise, I might have bad psychological motivations for a belief or a 951 01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,359 disbelief, but those things have nothing to do with whether it's true or false, 952 01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,399 but it still can be relevant information to know why people are motivated to 953 01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:53,399 believe this thing or that thing anyway. So I think that it's very valuable 954 01:09:54,319 --> 01:09:59,840 to look at the motivations and the pragmatic utility of religion and all that. 955 01:10:00,279 --> 01:10:02,119 But what religion is true or false and this kind of stuff, that's a 956 01:10:02,119 --> 01:10:05,720 totally different question. And I don't think they're invalid questions. I think they're 957 01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:12,479 very valid. But yeah, I mean, so basically, you know, 958 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:17,920 the transcendental argument runs that the only way to have an objective basis or argumentation 959 01:10:18,159 --> 01:10:23,279 for right and wrong, for true and false, for more metaphysics, which 960 01:10:23,279 --> 01:10:26,439 would be things like the good and so forth, is that you need some 961 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,720 kind of worldview which grounds those things, because those are very all encompassing types 962 01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:36,640 of claims. Right, So, in other words, to have belief in 963 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:41,239 the good, I have to have some account of the good, and to 964 01:10:41,279 --> 01:10:45,359 talk about the good. It's not going to just be a question of metaphysics. 965 01:10:45,359 --> 01:10:48,560 It's also ethical because I'm saying that this is good, and by extension, 966 01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:53,920 something else is bad good and batter ethics, there are also metaphysical claims. 967 01:10:54,279 --> 01:11:00,600 So what worldview can give an account for the possibility of making ethical, 968 01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:05,640 metaphysical, and epistemic claims. And so the argument runs that not every worldview 969 01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:10,319 can do that, so hence the Christian world you can do that. So 970 01:11:10,399 --> 01:11:15,000 it actually provides the possibility for those So I think for me, that's the 971 01:11:15,039 --> 01:11:21,920 best apologetic logical proof for God's existence. I mean, there's other people who 972 01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,319 make different types of art. I think the other arguments are kind of weak. 973 01:11:25,399 --> 01:11:29,840 But anyway, so that's kind of the basics of TAG in terms of 974 01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:34,479 how I would go about offering an argument that provides, you know, an 975 01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:39,960 account for world view, world views and ethics. M okay, I gotcha. 976 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:44,119 Jeez, all right, Well you've been very respectful of your time, 977 01:11:44,239 --> 01:11:45,560 Jay, I don't want to keep you too too long. Well, did 978 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,199 I derail it? Maybe it's like you didn't want to go into TAG or 979 01:11:48,199 --> 01:11:51,119 something. I thought, No, no, no no, I. If 980 01:11:51,159 --> 01:11:54,279 you got more time, I'll keep going. But I don't want to go 981 01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:56,600 a few more minutes to do if you want to No, no, no, 982 01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,720 I do I do, because there's there's like a million things going through 983 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,319 my But we're starting to get good, like where Tom Peterson and morals and 984 01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,960 Okay, okay, cool, Yeah, no, no, we'll keep going 985 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:11,920 then. Okay. So one thing that I never found quite compelling was when 986 01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,560 people say you get your I don't want to sound dismissive when I say this, 987 01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,119 but this is just the way that I'm interpreting it. And you can 988 01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:24,039 kind of color in the lines here. When it comes to where we receive 989 01:12:24,079 --> 01:12:28,800 our morals from, well, where Christians get their morals from is from divine 990 01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:33,920 command. Well, this question is incredibly loaded for me because it's like, 991 01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:38,479 okay, well, how do you know that the account you're getting of divine 992 01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,680 command is right? Because each person's relationship with God is gonna be different, 993 01:12:43,159 --> 01:12:45,000 right, And then if you're going to a spiritual father, how do you 994 01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,359 know that that spiritual father is correct? And do you see the kind of 995 01:12:48,399 --> 01:12:51,439 line of thinking that I'm going down? Like this has always been very very 996 01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:58,359 confusing for me. Well, going to one source, it doesn't follow from 997 01:12:58,399 --> 01:13:02,560 that that that's the only source. In our worldview, we would have multiple 998 01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:09,520 sources. And that's not a problem because we wouldn't necessarily believe that having multiple 999 01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,600 sources entails that the multiple sources are out of a chord with one another. 1000 01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:17,239 So, for example, if I'm reading my Bible on my own, and 1001 01:13:17,279 --> 01:13:20,800 then I go to church and we have a collective you know, experience of 1002 01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:24,960 the liturgy, and then I go and talk to my priest one on one 1003 01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:29,760 and we're having you know, counseling or something like that. Like conceivable, 1004 01:13:30,119 --> 01:13:35,520 most likely there's not going to be a contradiction between the information that's being gotten. 1005 01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:43,520 Right if I am reading my Bible and let's say I'm a new convert 1006 01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:46,279 and I'm reading it and I say, oh, I've noticed something that is 1007 01:13:46,319 --> 01:13:49,560 wrong, and then I go to the priest and I you are wrong because 1008 01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,479 the Bible says this. Well, I mean, that can certainly happen, 1009 01:13:54,279 --> 01:13:58,880 but most likely probably because if somebody's a new concert, they're probably not right. 1010 01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,000 They're probably you know, I mean, the person who's been studying it 1011 01:14:01,039 --> 01:14:04,840 and knowing it for a long time is probably more correct. But in my 1012 01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:09,840 experience this, I mean, this can happen, but I'm not run into 1013 01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:16,159 situations where you know, there was some like big existential dilemma over which authority 1014 01:14:16,319 --> 01:14:23,039 was right. But I guess that you know, that's more of a lived 1015 01:14:23,079 --> 01:14:26,920 experience that you would have to kind of see firsthand before you could really, 1016 01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,880 because I mean, that's not going to translate to you. You have an 1017 01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:31,520 experience as so you don't know if that's the case. Maybe it isn't the 1018 01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:33,920 case, and you might, like, you know, who knows, there 1019 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:41,199 could be a situation where you happen to go experience a preach who's really bad, 1020 01:14:41,319 --> 01:14:43,600 or you know, like maybe you find some corrupt preach or something like 1021 01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:46,920 that. So I mean, anything is possible, but no, I just 1022 01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,520 I think out of an out of hand, I would say that, well, 1023 01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:55,399 typically it's not the case that multiple authorities are necessarily going to be out 1024 01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,560 of a chord with with one another. And even though that might arise in 1025 01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:03,159 some cases, even in some situations where you have an authority that conflicts with 1026 01:15:03,159 --> 01:15:09,840 another authority, eventually there would be presumably some means to right. Let's say 1027 01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:14,199 you have like an orthodox Churt's the normal practice of these kinds of issues is 1028 01:15:14,279 --> 01:15:17,720 called the synod. So there's a council, and so if something was serious 1029 01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:21,279 enough that it couldn't be resolved, then it would kind of go up up 1030 01:15:21,279 --> 01:15:25,399 the chain to the bishop and then maybe to the synod or something like that. 1031 01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:29,640 So if there was some serious issue like that, there's at least measures 1032 01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,279 in place to deal with those types of problems. Does that make sense? 1033 01:15:32,640 --> 01:15:38,720 Okay, So basically I don't want to say use consensus of bishops. So 1034 01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:43,000 basically you would go up the hierarchy until you find the final authority who would 1035 01:15:43,039 --> 01:15:47,399 be interpreted as the person who would be the best at interpreting the text and 1036 01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:54,760 the perception of whatever scripture or whatever divine command that you're trying to understand at 1037 01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,800 the time. I'm sorry if I completely butchered that, but does that make 1038 01:15:56,840 --> 01:15:59,079 sense? Let me let me put it this way. So when you maybe 1039 01:15:59,119 --> 01:16:03,039 I'm confused about because somebody says divine command, they might think that that means 1040 01:16:03,159 --> 01:16:06,920 that when I'm reading the Bible and it says, you know, like Jesus 1041 01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:12,119 told his followers to go sell their cloak and buy a sword, Oh, 1042 01:16:12,279 --> 01:16:15,159 Jesus is commanding me right now, because that was a divine command that I 1043 01:16:15,239 --> 01:16:17,960 go and sell my cloak and buy a sword, right like we wouldn't nobody 1044 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:23,520 that I know would hold to That'll take all Bible passages literally, Well, 1045 01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,199 it's not even a question of literal versus figurative. That was That's actually just 1046 01:16:27,239 --> 01:16:30,600 a question of context because the context is speaking to the specific command to the 1047 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:38,960 apostles at that time, because he didn't want anything impeding his mission at that 1048 01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:42,960 time. So, but that's not a standing command as we would say, 1049 01:16:43,159 --> 01:16:47,000 like, for example, the Ten Commandments reflect God's moral law, and so 1050 01:16:47,479 --> 01:16:50,920 the moral law doesn't change, not just because it's the Ten Commandments, but 1051 01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:55,319 we think the Ten Commandments are kind of a reflection of God's own character. 1052 01:16:55,479 --> 01:17:01,439 So there's not going to be like any divine command that comes to us or 1053 01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:08,439 to anyone that contradicts the existing structure of the Ten Commandments in the moral law. 1054 01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,039 In other words, God's not going to, for example, command me 1055 01:17:11,079 --> 01:17:15,279 to I don't know, like I had a dream last night and God told 1056 01:17:15,319 --> 01:17:20,760 me my dream to murder my neighbor. Because they're I don't know, engaging 1057 01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:26,560 in something evil. It doesn't work like like I don't have the God is 1058 01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:30,680 not going to tell me to do something that contradicts prior revelation. And there's 1059 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:32,720 no there's no priests or anyone in the world that would tell you, yes, 1060 01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,640 you must listen to that, that's God speaking to you. Everyone would 1061 01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:40,520 say that's that's not God's speaking because we first and foremost, I think believe 1062 01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:45,319 in a an internal consistency and coherence. Okay, okay, all right, 1063 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:49,600 so that is there another example that you're I mean, maybe I'm misinterpreting, 1064 01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:55,119 Like what's the example that you're like, what's the scenario that you're thinking of? 1065 01:17:56,279 --> 01:17:58,640 It was just when I hear people say, well, we get our 1066 01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,880 moles from divine command, It's like, okay, well, who, like 1067 01:18:02,079 --> 01:18:05,159 how is this supposed to be interpreted? That's what's always kind of confused me. 1068 01:18:05,319 --> 01:18:09,880 And you know, to preface it again, I'm just incredibly ignorant of 1069 01:18:10,039 --> 01:18:13,119 the religion as a whole. So this has always been something that I've wanted 1070 01:18:13,159 --> 01:18:15,520 to learn more and more about. Well, I think you've laid a good 1071 01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,680 account for it, and like, I'm definitely grabbing it more. The usually 1072 01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:23,640 divine command is raised in the context if it's like an atheistic objection. It's 1073 01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,199 usually raised in the context of the youth of ro dilemma, which is should 1074 01:18:27,199 --> 01:18:31,520 we believe in the moral command because the God said it? Or do the 1075 01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,760 God say it because it's the good. So it's like, is it the 1076 01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:39,800 gods that arbitrarily sort of determine the good? Or do the God submit to 1077 01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,680 a higher ultimate standard of the good, so that is always cashed out in 1078 01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:47,800 terms of Greek metaphysics, and for us, we don't believe in Greek metaphysics. 1079 01:18:47,880 --> 01:18:53,960 So for example, God doesn't arbitrarily say this is good this day. 1080 01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,600 In ten years, I shall decree suddenly that you know, this is now 1081 01:18:58,800 --> 01:19:02,039 evil and them we don't believe that it ever occurs that way. For one, 1082 01:19:02,079 --> 01:19:05,840 because Paul says it's impossible for God to lie. So God can't go 1083 01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:11,800 against his own nature, and anything that has a nature and argue can't go 1084 01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:15,479 against that nature in terms of like suddenly not being that nature right, So 1085 01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:20,279 humans can never not be human. God should never not be who he is 1086 01:19:20,319 --> 01:19:27,359 as God, and so he's never going to give a command that would contradict 1087 01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:31,199 his own commands or his own ways of operating. So now there are certain 1088 01:19:31,199 --> 01:19:33,880 things that God can do that humans can't do. So it doesn't mean that 1089 01:19:34,239 --> 01:19:40,000 God does everything the exact same way that we do things. But we would 1090 01:19:40,079 --> 01:19:44,880 say that the Youth of Rae dilemma is based on a different metaphysic than the 1091 01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:50,520 Christian has, and it's neither divine command theory, nor does God submit to 1092 01:19:50,720 --> 01:19:56,239 some higher idea of the good Okay, so when it comes to kind of 1093 01:19:56,239 --> 01:20:00,479 getting more principles, he would have the Ten Commandments, and you're understand of 1094 01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:04,279 those would basically be consistent because you believe that God would lie, do I 1095 01:20:04,279 --> 01:20:09,479 got that about right. Well. I was just saying, if we're looking 1096 01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:14,439 for a basic moral framework, the Tank Commandments are kind of our basic sort 1097 01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:20,520 of beginning example of a moral framework. And yeah, I mean, the 1098 01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:28,199 the reason that those principles don't change is because God doesn't change. Is the 1099 01:20:28,239 --> 01:20:31,760 way I would say, okay, all right, So because this has been 1100 01:20:32,119 --> 01:20:36,079 something else when it comes to like talking about red pel topics, our mutual 1101 01:20:36,079 --> 01:20:40,119 friend Tommy Sammons had said that like, oh well, you guys don't ever 1102 01:20:40,199 --> 01:20:45,279 touch you know, what's more metaphysical stuff. And my hold up with that 1103 01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:48,800 is that essentially it's like, okay, well, who's metaphysics are you kind 1104 01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:55,399 of appealing to, Because like the way that people of Islamic faith or you 1105 01:20:55,399 --> 01:20:59,159 know, maybe Catholic faith or Orthodox faith, the way that they kind of 1106 01:20:59,199 --> 01:21:01,920 interpret those meta physics in a way that they're going to navigate the world with 1107 01:21:02,039 --> 01:21:05,359 that is going to be different. So like the way that I may view 1108 01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:10,279 things that are immaterial is going to be completely different than somebody who believes something 1109 01:21:10,279 --> 01:21:16,439 different than me. Am I making sense in certain metaphysical principles like are there 1110 01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:23,159 immaterial realities? There's an immaterial reality? Is is something not ext extended in 1111 01:21:23,199 --> 01:21:27,560 space and time? I mean, I don't think in those those specific examples 1112 01:21:27,560 --> 01:21:31,399 of like basic metaphysical ideas, I don't think we would disagree with a Roman 1113 01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:35,600 Catholic or even a Muslim. I mean, there are significant, huge disagreements 1114 01:21:35,640 --> 01:21:42,880 between mainly US and Muslims. Maybe less but still significant agreements, disagreements between 1115 01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:45,000 US and a Roman Catholic. But I think it kind of depends on which 1116 01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:49,079 specific metaphysical thing we're talking about, because you know, if I'm talking to 1117 01:21:49,199 --> 01:21:54,760 Roman Catholic, you know, we believe that there is causation. We believe 1118 01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:59,039 there's teleology or purpose in the world. We believe in, you know, 1119 01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:01,840 universals, We believe in laws of logic, we believe in all We believe 1120 01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,520 in a lot of the same because, for one, not only do we 1121 01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:11,920 have a biblical heritage that's similar in that first thousand years of Christianity between us 1122 01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:15,600 in Roman Calthol, we also share a lot of ideas from Plato and Aristotle. 1123 01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:20,199 So, for example, Aristotle's ethics, you know, has been very 1124 01:22:20,199 --> 01:22:26,039 influential on the Christian tradition, and we would say that we have a version 1125 01:22:26,079 --> 01:22:29,800 of virtue ethics. You know a lot of Ariostol, So there's a lot 1126 01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:34,640 of commonality with things like Aristotle, but at the same time, you know, 1127 01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:40,079 significant differences. But the specific things that you listed, the immateriality of 1128 01:22:40,079 --> 01:22:43,119 the soul, we would agree with, angels, demons, I think we 1129 01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:48,199 would agree with those basic ideas. Sure, sure, Okay, So then 1130 01:22:48,239 --> 01:22:51,720 I guess the next question that I've always had and I don't think I've ever 1131 01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:57,399 got a sufficient answer for, is what would make you know, let's say, 1132 01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,920 so you're an orthodox Christian, what would make you believe that your religion 1133 01:23:00,119 --> 01:23:04,239 is the one right one? And I'm not necessarily saying that you're one hundred 1134 01:23:04,239 --> 01:23:08,279 percent certain that it is. Maybe you are, but I don't know, 1135 01:23:09,319 --> 01:23:15,640 why would you know Romantholicism or any of the other religions be wrong denominations compared 1136 01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,880 to the one that you've settled with. Is it just like the matter of 1137 01:23:19,279 --> 01:23:24,119 you know, how you studied it and the historical precedent for it, or 1138 01:23:24,279 --> 01:23:28,399 what would be kind of like your reasoning for being Orthodox versus everything else, 1139 01:23:28,399 --> 01:23:32,720 and you believing that that's the highest truth. So I think certain arguments could 1140 01:23:32,760 --> 01:23:38,720 be made that fit every possible world view that that would be like a philosophical 1141 01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:44,720 approach to the basic epistemic, metaphysical, and ethical questions. I could do 1142 01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:48,600 a critique of the Roman Catholic Church on those three branches of philosophy time view. 1143 01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:53,840 I could also do a critique of the Romancolic position in terms of the 1144 01:23:53,920 --> 01:23:58,000 shared first thousand year heritage that we have with Roman Catholics. And I would 1145 01:23:58,039 --> 01:24:00,760 say, you know, things like if we look at the seven ecumun councils, 1146 01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,800 each of those councils has canons, which is church law or canon law 1147 01:24:05,199 --> 01:24:12,479 that they passed and promoted and held to that don't comport with the Vatican one 1148 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:17,520 definition of papal infallibility. The changes in the Romancallity Church from the time of 1149 01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:24,439 Vatican One to post Vatican two are pretty easy signifiers also that we could look 1150 01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:28,880 at. So these would be more historical arguments. And then I think you 1151 01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:31,720 could even you know, depending upon what Roman Galago saget them, and we 1152 01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:35,439 can go to biblical argumentation as well, so there's a lot of different avenues 1153 01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:41,560 that one could make that kind of an argument. But one commonality is that 1154 01:24:42,079 --> 01:24:47,399 we see a lot of similar approaches. For example, amongst Muslims, libertarians 1155 01:24:48,039 --> 01:24:58,600 and I could use stuff on malnu Azra Rashid, atheists, Thomass they all 1156 01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:05,159 have the exact same starting point of natural law and to translate that into religion. 1157 01:25:05,159 --> 01:25:11,399 That's natural theology. And I would, out of the hand argue that 1158 01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:15,000 all of those are fall apart. So all the same critiques that you've seen. 1159 01:25:15,119 --> 01:25:17,640 I don't know if you've seen the Muslim debates. But what's interesting is 1160 01:25:17,640 --> 01:25:23,159 that the exact same argument that came about with stuff on malony came about with 1161 01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:28,840 shake Azra Rashid, which was that well, there's just self evident principles. 1162 01:25:29,039 --> 01:25:30,359 Okay, well what are those? How do we account for those? Oh? 1163 01:25:30,399 --> 01:25:34,520 Well, they just are. So there's a commonality here that and this 1164 01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:39,760 is interesting that came out of the last Muslim debate. Some of the Muslim 1165 01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:45,720 philosophers actually anticipated the Enlightenment philosophers. And that's I think the commonality which I 1166 01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:50,159 didn't even know this until fairly recently, last few years of doing these Muslim 1167 01:25:50,199 --> 01:25:54,359 debates, Like, I knew about a lot of critiques of Enlightenment philosophy and 1168 01:25:54,439 --> 01:26:00,199 pistemology, but I didn't expect to find this as a commonality between small beween 1169 01:26:00,279 --> 01:26:08,760 Muslims, libertarians, enlightenment philosophers, and atheists. So basically your critique of 1170 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:12,760 all of them would be that they kind of start with natural law as a 1171 01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:16,840 given and kind of work from there. And you believe that divine command would 1172 01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:21,520 take place before that. Well, you keep saying divine command, and so 1173 01:26:21,560 --> 01:26:25,560 I'm not sure do you mean just the idea of revelation or do you mean 1174 01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:30,079 divine command theory of ethics? Divine command theory of ethics? I apologize, 1175 01:26:30,199 --> 01:26:31,600 Yeah, that's okay. I'm just trying to be precise. So I don't 1176 01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:36,399 like reply to something that you don't mean. Yeah, I mean, so 1177 01:26:36,439 --> 01:26:43,000 I think that, Yeah. The argument would be that any position that tries 1178 01:26:43,079 --> 01:26:47,960 to pause it self evidence is it's a problem, and so that this is 1179 01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:56,479 called classical foundationalism is the epistemic position, and that's the position that everybody shares 1180 01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:02,800 here where we're kind of just using classic and medieval notions of first principles. 1181 01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:06,079 So, but the problem is that post Human, Kant, the world begins 1182 01:27:06,079 --> 01:27:11,199 to question first principles, so it's actually the enlightenment that questions some of the 1183 01:27:11,279 --> 01:27:15,319 Enlightenment arguments, and then it puts us in this position of a lot of 1184 01:27:15,319 --> 01:27:19,880 skepticism and post modernity. So the question is, well, okay, so 1185 01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:25,399 the Enlightenment is trying to get away from superstitions. It's trying to cleanse our 1186 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:33,800 world views from from not having certitude and not having knowledge, right, because 1187 01:27:34,119 --> 01:27:40,000 Descartes kicks a lot of this off, seeking indubitable certitude, and then we 1188 01:27:40,079 --> 01:27:45,079 get Kant and Human and Locke taking the questions to a next level of well, 1189 01:27:45,079 --> 01:27:48,880 indibital certitude is probably not going to be had through rationalism of Descartes, 1190 01:27:49,159 --> 01:27:53,880 so it's probably going to be had if we can have it through something relating 1191 01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:57,960 to empirical sense data. So we get to shift away from rationalism to empiricism 1192 01:27:58,680 --> 01:28:02,840 with Hume, Lock, Berkley, Kant, and pretty much everybody after that 1193 01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:09,000 unless they're like weirdos like Hegel or something or Hediger, But most of the 1194 01:28:09,039 --> 01:28:15,880 time in the West, this empiricism comes to dominate, and eventually empiricism deconstructs 1195 01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:18,439 itself because we don't really have to go much further than David Hume. The 1196 01:28:18,520 --> 01:28:23,520 questions haven't really changed since David Hume, even up until Kwine, and the 1197 01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:28,920 questions are just, well, how do we actually have a way to justify 1198 01:28:29,359 --> 01:28:35,039 even these basic principles or first principles of natural science or sense data. Hume 1199 01:28:35,159 --> 01:28:40,359 was consistent enough to say we can't, there's no justification, and so they're 1200 01:28:40,359 --> 01:28:44,319 in the same category as religious beliefs. So the law of non contradiction, 1201 01:28:44,439 --> 01:28:46,800 the law of identity, identity over time, I mean, David Hume is 1202 01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:51,760 saying that if you're an atheist, skeptic, whatever, like, those are 1203 01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:56,600 in the same boat as the religious guy you're making fun of. So you're 1204 01:28:56,640 --> 01:29:00,600 talking about the guy who's an idiot for believing in God, You're just as 1205 01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:03,760 much an idiot for believing that you can give a rational episomic justification for your 1206 01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:09,720 first principles without contradicting being a circle. So this leads to people then kind 1207 01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:16,920 of positing different ways of accounting for first principles, namely transcendental argumentation or admitting 1208 01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:23,840 that there is circularity for first principles or for basic principles. This is the 1209 01:29:23,840 --> 01:29:28,520 points that Wickenstein is a bringing up about word games really is just making the 1210 01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:32,000 point that language is kind of circular. You can never get out of a 1211 01:29:32,119 --> 01:29:38,000 kind of basic fundamental circularity. And that would mean then that all of the 1212 01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:44,159 self evidence arguments and the belief in self evidence and first principles it doesn't exist. 1213 01:29:44,239 --> 01:29:46,920 So fiction. So if that's the case, then that right there cuts 1214 01:29:46,960 --> 01:29:57,399 out any religious position that would build their foundations on classical foundationalism. Okay, 1215 01:29:57,520 --> 01:30:00,720 all right, man, that is a lot. See I've never had to 1216 01:30:00,800 --> 01:30:03,079 question this kind of stuff, so I'm coming to it. Here's the thing, 1217 01:30:03,159 --> 01:30:08,600 like, if you get a book, like a mainline readable epistemology book, 1218 01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:13,439 like, for example, there's a really good one called Epistemology by W. 1219 01:30:13,680 --> 01:30:16,680 J. Wood, and it's not that long. It's I recommend it 1220 01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:20,319 to people in the audience because there's a whole chapter where he raises the very 1221 01:30:20,439 --> 01:30:24,600 questions that you hear me talking about, and it's the question on it's the 1222 01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:28,439 chapter on classical foundationalism, and he says, well, you know, every 1223 01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:31,920 classical foundationalist is some kind of evidentialist. And the problem with having this view 1224 01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:36,720 of well, there's just some things that are self evident is that says who 1225 01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:42,399 you become another kind of arbitrary religious authority. Right, And maybe it is 1226 01:30:42,439 --> 01:30:45,840 the case that the law of identity, the law of not contradiction, excluded 1227 01:30:45,840 --> 01:30:47,960 a middle all these maybe all these things are self evident, but why should 1228 01:30:48,039 --> 01:30:53,880 we think to that self evident? And then you get this problem of self 1229 01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:57,199 reliance where it's like, well, if they're self evident, they can't rely 1230 01:30:57,279 --> 01:30:59,439 on something else. But as soon as you try to give reasons for why 1231 01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:02,359 it's self outen evident, you're appealing to something else is no longer self evident. 1232 01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:08,199 Then there's another problem that's called the Chisholm problem, the criterion problem. 1233 01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,439 And this is a philosopher who raised the point that well, even if you 1234 01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:15,800 could lay out the ten things that you think are self evident, you've missed, 1235 01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:20,359 you've missed, you've overlooked the fact that if there's ten things that are 1236 01:31:20,359 --> 01:31:26,039 self evident and there's a million things that aren't self evident that are derived from 1237 01:31:26,079 --> 01:31:30,319 this, then you have a more fundamental notion of the criteria, which is 1238 01:31:30,359 --> 01:31:34,600 the thing that allows you to adjudicate between these two things. And so, 1239 01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:39,199 uh oh, now you've got something more fundamental than your ten things that are 1240 01:31:39,199 --> 01:31:43,079 self evident, therefore they're no longer self evident. So these are pretty pretty 1241 01:31:43,119 --> 01:31:45,720 well known. I'm not knocking you, but I'm just saying maybe if people 1242 01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:49,800 aren't familiar with these questions, like anybody who takes in a pistemology class, 1243 01:31:50,039 --> 01:31:55,359 you're going to have a textbook that will raise these questions. And these questions 1244 01:31:55,399 --> 01:32:00,239 are not just irrelevant, they're raised and they're brought up because as the discourse 1245 01:32:00,279 --> 01:32:05,279 happens in Western philosophy, by the time you get to Quine, Quine and 1246 01:32:05,319 --> 01:32:11,720 Nelson Goodman, they restate the problems of human say, we haven't we haven't 1247 01:32:11,760 --> 01:32:15,359 moved beyond hum and Quine goes so far as to say that really there is 1248 01:32:15,359 --> 01:32:18,560 no epistemology. It's done. It's just like we're just doing psychology now. 1249 01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,920 Well, if we're just doing psychology now, then we're doing a philosophy and 1250 01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:28,920 that's and that's essentially what Quin says. So when it comes to things that 1251 01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:31,960 are self evident, and the problem with that, I never really thought of 1252 01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:35,479 it as a way of that like if you use an individual or deciding a 1253 01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:39,159 things yourself evident, because like, hey, I can touch this remote right 1254 01:32:39,199 --> 01:32:42,000 here, I can rely that it's going to be here over time, and 1255 01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:46,039 like it's not changing shape in my hand. The question then is like, 1256 01:32:46,079 --> 01:32:50,560 okay, well why should I what's the grounding for that belief for atheists then, 1257 01:32:50,640 --> 01:32:55,920 because like you know, you can't reliably say that it's always going to 1258 01:32:55,960 --> 01:32:59,640 be there. But it almost seems like the religious argument, I don't say 1259 01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:01,159 is a about to say, okay, well, God accounts for that, 1260 01:33:01,239 --> 01:33:06,239 But that's essentially what I'm getting. The argument is. The argument is not 1261 01:33:06,359 --> 01:33:11,079 just God accounts for that. The argument is that sure, there are structures 1262 01:33:11,119 --> 01:33:15,359 in place that are not God, but transcendental categories that have to be there 1263 01:33:15,399 --> 01:33:19,079 in place, in reality, in an external world, and the only way 1264 01:33:19,119 --> 01:33:24,920 to account for all of those things together is God in the Christian world. 1265 01:33:25,399 --> 01:33:29,159 So it ends up being what's called divine conceptualism, which is the idea that 1266 01:33:29,239 --> 01:33:33,439 reality is grounded not just in the things themselves, but in something beyond physical 1267 01:33:33,479 --> 01:33:36,199 reality, in the divine mind. And the reason that it has to be 1268 01:33:36,239 --> 01:33:41,319 a divine, personal, intentional mind is that that's the only kind of thing, 1269 01:33:41,359 --> 01:33:45,760 the only kind of being that could do the grounding work in an epistemic 1270 01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:50,039 sense, to ground the things that we're talking about the categories as well as 1271 01:33:50,039 --> 01:33:54,279 the particulars, the universals, et cetera, all of those things. And 1272 01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:59,199 when you study what categories are and so forth, you realize they don't like 1273 01:33:59,279 --> 01:34:02,560 there's not like things that they're not structures to stand on their own right. 1274 01:34:02,760 --> 01:34:10,760 Like knowing knowledge presupposes a knowwherre a self. Okay, that's presupposed as an 1275 01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:15,319 external world. The ability to know things in the external world presupposes causation. 1276 01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:18,039 And so the question that you just raised about like the external world and the 1277 01:34:18,039 --> 01:34:23,439 object in my hand, this is this is a very that that very assumption 1278 01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:32,359 is questioned in a really famous book by Sellard's Myth of the Given. And 1279 01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:36,319 the point of that little book is that he's it's a famous book in philosophy 1280 01:34:36,319 --> 01:34:42,920 because he's critiquing the idea that there's this immediate givenness of a causal experience, 1281 01:34:43,039 --> 01:34:48,199 that this object in my hand is transmitting causally information to my senses and to 1282 01:34:48,319 --> 01:34:54,119 my brain. Now, maybe it is, but you haven't proven or shown 1283 01:34:54,199 --> 01:34:58,479 that empirically. You've assumed it in your interpretation of the object. You see. 1284 01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:04,079 So the point is that it's really impossible to get away from assuming things 1285 01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:10,039 even in something as simple as perception of a mundane object? Does that make 1286 01:35:10,079 --> 01:35:13,720 sense? And so Sellers isn't arguing that you, oh, Wilson, I 1287 01:35:13,760 --> 01:35:17,439 guess we're all skeptics. He's just pointing out that it's not adequate to assume 1288 01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:25,840 that because there's sense data that I'm getting reliable, meaningful information about the object, 1289 01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:30,079 as I think it's so constituted. You see what I'm saying. So 1290 01:35:30,359 --> 01:35:34,039 I guess the next question then would be like, how do you reliably account 1291 01:35:34,119 --> 01:35:39,800 for consciousness amongst other people? Then? And what's to say that, like 1292 01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:44,159 my interpretation of this remote would be different than let's say, my wife in 1293 01:35:44,159 --> 01:35:46,520 the other room's interpretation of the remote. Well, but you see, the 1294 01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:50,960 point is that if the world view and I'm not saying it's true, because 1295 01:35:50,960 --> 01:35:56,359 I'm saying this it's a hypothetical. If if the worldview that's positive by the 1296 01:35:56,439 --> 01:36:00,640 Christian system is true, and let's say we're made in the image of God, 1297 01:36:00,319 --> 01:36:04,760 we have minds, we have the ability to reason in a discursive way, 1298 01:36:05,039 --> 01:36:10,039 reasoning logos, which is this idea that penetrates the universe. It's makes 1299 01:36:10,079 --> 01:36:15,239 sense because it's a rational universe created by irrational being with purpose, tls intentionality, 1300 01:36:15,720 --> 01:36:19,399 there's structure, there's order, there's regularity in nature, which solves the 1301 01:36:19,399 --> 01:36:25,319 problem of identity over time, and the problem of induction that hum brings up. 1302 01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:29,840 So, in other words, a lot of these really difficult problems in 1303 01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:34,239 philosophy that have, especially in the last five hundred years, made the philosophers 1304 01:36:34,239 --> 01:36:39,560 say we're done, we give up. They've literally thrown up their hands. 1305 01:36:40,039 --> 01:36:45,079 A lot of those problems aren't problems in the Christian worldview, because the Christian 1306 01:36:45,119 --> 01:36:49,359 worldview gives us that logical structure and framework. The non Christian Christian worldview, 1307 01:36:50,319 --> 01:36:54,800 in say, secular academia, they can't even tell you if there's an external 1308 01:36:54,840 --> 01:36:57,840 world. That's what I'm trying to say, like, get they can't get 1309 01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:02,159 past because remember, everything is starting with just the presupposition of an individual, 1310 01:37:02,279 --> 01:37:08,680 finite human knower and the empirical sense data supposedly that maybe it's out there, 1311 01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,760 maybe it's not, maybe it's just a projection of my mind, maybe i'm 1312 01:37:12,199 --> 01:37:15,359 maybe it's just sillipsis. So in other words, it's it can't even get 1313 01:37:15,359 --> 01:37:17,479 off the ground, is the point, Whereas, at least in the Christian 1314 01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:24,319 perspective, it's not saying that you have a worldview that gives you an answer 1315 01:37:24,319 --> 01:37:28,840 to every question. It's a worldview that gives you the possibility of how there's 1316 01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:30,760 knowledge at all? Does that make sense? That's the actual argue. A 1317 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:35,640 lot of people miss that, but that's I'm following. But the one thing 1318 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:39,319 that I guess I'm kind of hung up on here is that it almost sounds 1319 01:37:39,359 --> 01:37:43,680 like you're saying, well, the religious worldview accounts for most of these things, 1320 01:37:44,039 --> 01:37:48,279 so therefore it is the most likely explanation. But that doesn't necessarily and 1321 01:37:48,359 --> 01:37:54,000 maybe it's just because I don't get it. It's not a question of likelihood. 1322 01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:59,279 The argument runs that it's the only way that all of the transcenental categories, 1323 01:37:59,279 --> 01:38:03,840 which are all necessary for the possibility of knowledge, hold and stand together 1324 01:38:04,079 --> 01:38:10,640 and make knowledge possible. So it's a pre knowledge type of argument. It's 1325 01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:15,079 a preconditioned argument. It's not an argument saying that the world exists, therefore 1326 01:38:15,079 --> 01:38:18,760 God exists. It's saying that for the possibility of knowledge at all, God 1327 01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:24,079 would have to exist. So it's as much stronger claim than just the claim 1328 01:38:24,119 --> 01:38:28,880 that well, maybe God fits into this you know, gap system or something 1329 01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:30,479 like that. Sure, Sure, okay, so I guess what I'm not 1330 01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:35,800 following is that I don't understand how all of that concludes that God is real. 1331 01:38:36,359 --> 01:38:41,680 And I'm sure there's an explanation, but I'm not. It's if knowledge. 1332 01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:45,079 It's The argument is that if knowledge is possible, it seems that it 1333 01:38:45,199 --> 01:38:47,920 is, then it requires this metaphysic, and that metaphysic requires this God, 1334 01:38:48,079 --> 01:38:54,680 a specific type of God. That's the argument. So you could conceivably say, 1335 01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,359 well, I don't believe knowledge is possible, but then you just made 1336 01:38:58,399 --> 01:39:03,600 a knowledge claim. So so it seems pretty yeah, it's pretty dead end 1337 01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:06,640 to go in that direction. So but the argument is that, well, 1338 01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:13,359 if if knowledge is possible, knowledge isn't possible on any random type of world. 1339 01:39:13,720 --> 01:39:16,399 It's only possible on a certain kind of world with a certain type of 1340 01:39:16,479 --> 01:39:25,039 metaphysic and a certain epistemology and by extension ethic as well. Okay, all 1341 01:39:25,079 --> 01:39:27,840 right, I want to make sure I let me rephrase it like this, 1342 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:31,720 like you familiar with say, Aristotle's categories, not off the top of my 1343 01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,239 head, but maybe if you so. Basically, like Ariostotl gives this list 1344 01:39:35,279 --> 01:39:43,199 of categories, and these are the categories of how it's possible to know the 1345 01:39:43,239 --> 01:39:46,439 world. Okay, So like certain like things have to be in a certain 1346 01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:50,680 location, they have to have a certain quantity, they have to have certain 1347 01:39:50,760 --> 01:39:55,239 qualities, they have to have certain relations to other objects. Right that this 1348 01:39:55,359 --> 01:39:59,800 is appealing to sense stata, right, Like, well, aerosols is an 1349 01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:02,199 asking those kinds of questions yet because he just assumes that, Yeah, of 1350 01:40:02,199 --> 01:40:05,000 course we have information from sense data. Right, So he just takes it 1351 01:40:05,039 --> 01:40:12,600 as a given that we have these sense data knowledge. We have this knowledge 1352 01:40:12,640 --> 01:40:17,119 from sense data that's made possible by these metaphysical principles. Okay, So I'm 1353 01:40:17,159 --> 01:40:20,720 just trying to give examples of what kinds of things we're talking about here, 1354 01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:29,039 right, And I think we could also include things that are necessary for predication 1355 01:40:29,159 --> 01:40:34,920 and knowledge, like laws of logic, like linguistic meaning, universals, particulars 1356 01:40:35,359 --> 01:40:41,119 or these are all metaphysical things that I'm saying. If we want to say 1357 01:40:41,119 --> 01:40:44,439 that we have knowledge, and by knowledge I mean justified true belief, If 1358 01:40:44,439 --> 01:40:46,439 we want to say we have that, then the world's got to be a 1359 01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:49,720 certain way. So for example, well what if it's not. What if 1360 01:40:49,720 --> 01:40:53,840 the world is a rejection of my mind? Well, if I went in 1361 01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:56,960 that direction, I could not have knowledge anymore. It would be a self 1362 01:40:57,000 --> 01:41:01,880 defeating belief at a presubpositional fundamental level, because if I come to the view 1363 01:41:01,920 --> 01:41:06,600 that everything is a projection of my mind, then kind of everything is a 1364 01:41:06,640 --> 01:41:10,920 sort of an illusion, right, And if everything is illusory or just a 1365 01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:14,920 projection of my mind, there's nothing to compare against the false. Right, 1366 01:41:14,960 --> 01:41:18,199 I don't have a true to measure the false, because everything just is right. 1367 01:41:18,239 --> 01:41:21,880 So right there, you would be essentially a religious figure dictating reality. 1368 01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:28,880 Well but if well, but yeah, but not just that. It would 1369 01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:34,960 be that knowledge is impossible because if everything that's occurring is an illusion or just 1370 01:41:35,000 --> 01:41:41,319 a projection of my subconscious then it's not really real. I don't have any 1371 01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:46,760 real to measure the false against. Then what that means is that even my 1372 01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:51,800 coming to know that all reality is a projection of my mind, that's also 1373 01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:56,560 part of the projection, you see, And I can't know that that's real. 1374 01:41:56,840 --> 01:42:00,159 So I'm ellipsism. What I'm saying is that, as an example of 1375 01:42:00,199 --> 01:42:06,279 a position worldview that is self defeating, that actually makes knowledge impossible. And 1376 01:42:06,319 --> 01:42:13,279 when I say knowledge, I'm talking about criteria that meets the standards a belief 1377 01:42:13,279 --> 01:42:16,640 that meets the standard of justified true belief in the classical sense. So I 1378 01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:21,079 would affirm, like a classical idea of knowledge is not just mere opinion, 1379 01:42:21,159 --> 01:42:25,920 but the ability to justify, give an account for, and ground your beliefs 1380 01:42:26,399 --> 01:42:30,079 justified true beliefs. So and we say that because I give this example earlier 1381 01:42:30,079 --> 01:42:34,560 in our discussion where we were talking about good beliefs versus or good reasons to 1382 01:42:34,600 --> 01:42:41,199 believe versus bad reasons. So this is this is like Bill Cosby saying tuopless 1383 01:42:41,199 --> 01:42:43,720 two is four in a dream. Even though it might be true, it's 1384 01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,720 not a good reason to believe, too pluss for any better reasoning than that. 1385 01:42:46,359 --> 01:42:50,840 And so to get back to the tag point the argument for God, 1386 01:42:51,039 --> 01:42:57,119 I'm just using the syllipsis as a position as an example of how maybe I 1387 01:42:57,159 --> 01:43:00,199 don't think that there's an external world. Well, if I don't think there's 1388 01:43:00,199 --> 01:43:03,560 an external world, I'm immediately put in this box of syllipsism, canceling out 1389 01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:09,840 the possibility of knowledge. And so the transcendal argument runs that most of those 1390 01:43:09,960 --> 01:43:15,520 kind of fundamental moves away from a Christian or atheistic paradigm will put you in 1391 01:43:15,920 --> 01:43:18,760 a kind of box like that. Let's say I believe, oh h, 1392 01:43:18,840 --> 01:43:23,039 there is an external world, but everything is pure matter. Well, if 1393 01:43:23,039 --> 01:43:27,199 everything is pure matter, then I would fall into the deterministic fallacy, which 1394 01:43:27,199 --> 01:43:31,079 would make the naturalistic fallacy, which would make knowledge impossible. Or I would 1395 01:43:31,079 --> 01:43:34,720 not be able to predicate and make sentences because I don't know that what I'm 1396 01:43:34,720 --> 01:43:40,399 predicating actually applies to any meaningful thing in the world. Because if it's all 1397 01:43:40,640 --> 01:43:45,479 just matter and motion, then distinctions between matter and motion ultimately end up being 1398 01:43:45,560 --> 01:43:47,960 kind of illusory because there are always sol just atoms anyway, So there's not 1399 01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:53,880 really anything that makes the cow different from the man, different from the truck 1400 01:43:54,039 --> 01:43:57,720 different from the dog. It's just matter in motion. So there's not really 1401 01:43:58,399 --> 01:44:01,520 essences. There's no nature. And if there are no essences in natures, 1402 01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:09,159 then meaning, then language and predication that becomes impossible. Okay. So, 1403 01:44:09,239 --> 01:44:13,239 and that would be because they're each of those things you mentioned have distinctions and 1404 01:44:13,279 --> 01:44:15,800 things that make them. You know, simply, I'm so like you know, 1405 01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:18,720 obviously I'm myself because you could see who I am, you can hear 1406 01:44:18,720 --> 01:44:20,880 me, you can you know, feel me, small me, whatever, 1407 01:44:21,239 --> 01:44:24,399 But like you know, when it comes to like a cow or a dog 1408 01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:28,880 or something like that, like they have old distinct things, natures, behaviors 1409 01:44:29,239 --> 01:44:31,840 that you would recognize as like okay, well cow, you know, grazes 1410 01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:39,439 and you know is made up of meat, ribbi whatever. And a dog 1411 01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:42,880 is you know, going to have certain things that it does, and natures 1412 01:44:43,359 --> 01:44:50,640 which would need well, we need universals, we need real categories that make 1413 01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:56,880 those things those things and not other things. And so any position that denies, 1414 01:44:56,920 --> 01:45:00,920 for example, the reality of essences and natures is going to be in 1415 01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:05,520 the same boxes of human skepticism, and eventually, kind of on the inability 1416 01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:12,680 to predicate, you will reduce to psychologism. So and that's that's why Hume's 1417 01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,680 such a great philosopher for us. Ironically, even though I don't agree with 1418 01:45:16,039 --> 01:45:19,600 his conclusions, his point is that if we're going to go the route of 1419 01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:25,720 denying the metaphysics, which denying universals would lead to this, then things don't 1420 01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:29,439 really have anything in common beyond what we perceive them to be in common. 1421 01:45:29,800 --> 01:45:32,760 They don't actually possess those things in themselves. Because what I perceived to be 1422 01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,720 something common is just the thing I come up with in my mind. It's 1423 01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:42,520 a psychologized, linguistic token thing. It's not an actual thing that's possessed in 1424 01:45:42,560 --> 01:45:48,159 the being right between two dogs. The dogs don't have dogness in And if 1425 01:45:48,199 --> 01:45:51,520 you were to be consistent here, if you're an empiricist, because you're not, 1426 01:45:51,720 --> 01:45:56,800 you're not empirically seeing dogness. You're just seeing a bunch of traits that 1427 01:45:56,880 --> 01:45:59,720 this one has a bunch of traits that this one has, and you're just 1428 01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:02,159 assuming that they have some shared traits. But that's the thing in question. 1429 01:46:02,560 --> 01:46:05,720 What is the shared trait? Well, you don't believe in essences, so 1430 01:46:06,039 --> 01:46:13,399 what's what's shared? Exactly? There's nothing shared you can't consistently believe. And 1431 01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:17,039 so that that's why, as this debate progresses, if you're a nominalist and 1432 01:46:17,119 --> 01:46:20,520 pretty much every empiricist as anomalist, there might be some weirdo other that's not 1433 01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:24,439 but usually those like nine a half percent of the time those go together. 1434 01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:30,479 There's not a real thing that's shared. It's just appearances, it's just traits. 1435 01:46:31,039 --> 01:46:33,439 It's begging the question to say, well, then what is it that 1436 01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:41,039 makes a dog a dog? Does that you know doesn't make sense a little 1437 01:46:41,079 --> 01:46:44,840 bit, But so you couldn't appeal to like the name, Like you know, 1438 01:46:45,279 --> 01:46:47,880 dogs have specific behaviors like you might have heard my dog just run down 1439 01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:51,119 the stairs and barn. But the behaviors are another feature of empirical sense data. 1440 01:46:51,199 --> 01:46:55,439 So it's just it's no different than saying that, uh, it's the 1441 01:46:55,520 --> 01:46:59,960 dog. They have four legs. I mean, it doesn't like the behaviors 1442 01:47:00,079 --> 01:47:02,680 are another piece of sense data. They don't tell you if there's two different 1443 01:47:02,720 --> 01:47:06,880 natures because there are no natures. There's just there's just atoms. I mean, 1444 01:47:08,159 --> 01:47:12,279 if you're an empiricist, all you have is the sense data, and 1445 01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:15,560 you're assuming that there's these things that are called dogs and these things that are 1446 01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:20,520 called men, but those are just human and their social constructs. So human 1447 01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:26,960 is more consistent here and saying that's that's an interpretation from a human being that 1448 01:47:27,039 --> 01:47:33,159 you're calling. Those are English words, right, So there's no what's what's 1449 01:47:33,199 --> 01:47:38,399 a dog behavior of? I don't know, bone biting. I mean humans 1450 01:47:38,439 --> 01:47:41,199 can bite a bone, so are we dogs? If you have that behavior, 1451 01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:45,159 what's the specific behavior? And in other words, you can't reduce a 1452 01:47:45,279 --> 01:47:49,279 nature to a traitor behavior. And again, the it's kind of begging the 1453 01:47:49,359 --> 01:47:55,640 question because the question isn't can you think of a different thing that's not four 1454 01:47:55,720 --> 01:47:59,079 legs or hair or whatever, because they're all going to be sense data, 1455 01:47:59,359 --> 01:48:02,800 so it doesn't matter or which sense data trait you pick out. Human's point 1456 01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:10,079 is that what you're referring to linguistically is not in the thing itself. There's 1457 01:48:10,119 --> 01:48:14,000 no okay, that's not in that dog. That's a human social construct. 1458 01:48:14,800 --> 01:48:19,560 So basically, when we conceive of something, we have the different categories that 1459 01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:24,359 may not all be physical things that we can achieve through sense data that we 1460 01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,000 kind of abtrack and say, okay, well, you know, I know 1461 01:48:27,159 --> 01:48:29,760 this is dog because it looks like a dog, it feels like a dog, 1462 01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:32,119 sounds like a dog, but it also has these other behaviors that we 1463 01:48:32,199 --> 01:48:36,600 can't necessarily touch, taste, or feel that we know makes it a dog. 1464 01:48:36,720 --> 01:48:41,239 Same with you know, same way with people and categories. From there 1465 01:48:41,279 --> 01:48:46,079 all, well, you lose the ability to actually posit classes, is what 1466 01:48:46,159 --> 01:48:49,119 I'm trying to say. Now, you can do it, but there's not 1467 01:48:49,199 --> 01:48:54,479 an account for it. Right, So there's plenty of atheist materials philosophers out 1468 01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:57,560 there who believe in a species and who believe in a class of things. 1469 01:48:57,600 --> 01:49:02,000 But Human's point is that there's no ration justification for believing in those classes. 1470 01:49:02,199 --> 01:49:10,520 It's arbitrary. If we're an empiricist, Okay, so then okay, I 1471 01:49:10,680 --> 01:49:14,199 hate to do this again to you, But how would it be not arbitrary 1472 01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:18,199 when you install religion to the picture. Well, we're not empiricists, so 1473 01:49:18,279 --> 01:49:24,560 we wouldn't start our assumption of how we have knowledge or limit our knowledge to 1474 01:49:25,319 --> 01:49:30,319 immediate sense data. So the first thing we would not agree with is that 1475 01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,640 all knowledge comes from sense data. Secondly, we would not believe that knowledge 1476 01:49:34,000 --> 01:49:39,359 is limited to sense data, and we would posit the necessity of the metaphysics 1477 01:49:39,439 --> 01:49:42,960 that human and the Enlightenment rejected. There must be telos in the world, 1478 01:49:43,199 --> 01:49:46,720 there must be causation in the world. But the Enlightenment is posited on you 1479 01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:54,680 don't actually perceive in your senses cause and effect. So humans example is to 1480 01:49:54,800 --> 01:49:58,079 go along with what we're talking about with the dogs and the perceiving of the 1481 01:49:58,239 --> 01:50:01,119 essences or the natures. If you think of a billiard ball hitting another billiard 1482 01:50:01,159 --> 01:50:05,199 ball right, a billiard ball A hits biller ball B, and then the 1483 01:50:05,279 --> 01:50:13,079 next one moves right, do you actually perceive causation there? And Hume's point 1484 01:50:13,159 --> 01:50:17,439 is that if we're going to be consistent empiricists, No, you observe event 1485 01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:23,920 A an event B, and you're calling that causation. But in that particular 1486 01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:30,199 instance, you have not observed a universal causation event. So you see that 1487 01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:36,119 there's a mistake from jumping from the particular to the assumption which is not justified 1488 01:50:36,199 --> 01:50:41,880 on an empirical basis that there is a universal principle of causation. So Hume 1489 01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:45,680 is not arguing in this that he doesn't believe in cause and effect. His 1490 01:50:45,800 --> 01:50:51,079 point is that there's not a logical justification if you're an empiricist for cause and 1491 01:50:51,119 --> 01:50:55,920 effect. And if that's the case, then there's not a logical justification for 1492 01:50:56,000 --> 01:51:00,399 any of the principles that an atheist, rationalist, materialist, whatever empiricist has. 1493 01:51:00,880 --> 01:51:04,600 You can't justify the laws of logic, the external world, identity over 1494 01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:14,479 time on causation. They're just as arbitrary as somebody positing are gone. Does 1495 01:51:14,520 --> 01:51:19,520 that make sense? Yes, sort of? So what because of the billiard 1496 01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:27,640 ball example, If you hit the billiard ball, then you know that gravity 1497 01:51:27,960 --> 01:51:33,039 is going to maintain the ball staying on the table and then hitting the other 1498 01:51:33,159 --> 01:51:40,039 one, and when they make contact that you're missing the locus of human critique 1499 01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:45,239 because to appeal to something like gravity or some other force or principle at work 1500 01:51:45,399 --> 01:51:50,119 in physics or whatever is begging the question, because it's just moving to another 1501 01:51:50,279 --> 01:51:56,000 piece of empirical data. And the point is that you don't actually know that 1502 01:51:56,359 --> 01:52:01,000 that is a universal principle or thing going on in the universe unless you've had 1503 01:52:01,119 --> 01:52:05,279 universal experience. So remember you're if you're an empiricist, all you know is 1504 01:52:05,359 --> 01:52:09,960 sense data. On what basis of sense data? Do you know that there's 1505 01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:16,680 a universal principle of gravity by your I don't want to say lived experience, 1506 01:52:16,760 --> 01:52:19,359 but essentially that's all you can really rely on. That's right, So you 1507 01:52:19,439 --> 01:52:23,399 can't go from it. You can't justify sense data on the principle of sense 1508 01:52:23,479 --> 01:52:29,479 data, right, So to make it really simple, I mean, the 1509 01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:32,279 basic point, starting point of empiricism is that all knowledge comes through sense data. 1510 01:52:32,359 --> 01:52:39,000 Okay, does that principle itself? Do you see that anywhere in sense 1511 01:52:39,079 --> 01:52:44,600 data? Then it's self forgetting that's the point. Okay, So basically because 1512 01:52:45,600 --> 01:52:49,199 so okay, okay, no, I'm getting so because you can't actually visually 1513 01:52:49,399 --> 01:52:55,199 see a cause and effect like the actual what cause and effect means. Then 1514 01:52:55,720 --> 01:53:00,079 that requires abstraction, which if you're an empiricist you can't believe because it's not 1515 01:53:00,199 --> 01:53:03,239 a physical thing. And the same deal with like what it has to do 1516 01:53:03,359 --> 01:53:06,920 with universal and predication. Right, So I mean you're partly right there. 1517 01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:12,159 I would agree with the abstraction point that you're you're not really meaningfless, we 1518 01:53:12,279 --> 01:53:17,159 don't know that we're meaningfully saying anything about the external world beyond that. Yeah, 1519 01:53:17,319 --> 01:53:21,239 there's also this idea that all knowledge comes from sense data, so that 1520 01:53:21,399 --> 01:53:26,560 all is a universal quantifier, meaning that it's a universal claim. It's a 1521 01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:30,520 statement about all possible affairs. Right, But as an empiricist, you don't 1522 01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:34,760 have actually that. Okay, so it's annosified move. Maybe it's the case, 1523 01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:39,960 but we don't know that. We can go there just arbitrarily by saying 1524 01:53:40,079 --> 01:53:43,079 that, well, all knowledge comes from says data. Really, how do 1525 01:53:43,159 --> 01:53:48,840 you know that you're an empiricist? Have you universally observed that it's unknowable? 1526 01:53:49,319 --> 01:53:53,439 Okay? Okay, so now it's starting to click. So basically, like 1527 01:53:53,920 --> 01:53:58,680 I can't know that universally all these guitar picks all over the world look exactly 1528 01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:01,239 the same and do the same function because I haven't seen all the guitar picks 1529 01:54:01,239 --> 01:54:05,399 that are all over the world. Right, But yeah, so, but 1530 01:54:05,479 --> 01:54:10,039 it's it would be for any sentence or any class of things. You couldn't 1531 01:54:10,039 --> 01:54:13,560 make those statements justifiably. You can make the statements, they just can't be 1532 01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:16,119 justified, but you can't you can't prove it because you would That would require 1533 01:54:16,159 --> 01:54:20,000 you to see every single guitar pick that's ever been made and ever will be 1534 01:54:20,079 --> 01:54:25,199 made, right, and so, But it's a problem not just for specific 1535 01:54:25,399 --> 01:54:30,600 universal claims and formal propositions or whatever. It's a problem for predication in general 1536 01:54:30,079 --> 01:54:40,319 because it also means I can't knowably. I can't coherently class anything together as 1537 01:54:40,399 --> 01:54:44,479 if it's a real class of things. And that becomes a problem in language 1538 01:54:44,479 --> 01:54:53,199 because language relies on predicates predication. Right, Jay is a man, Kyle 1539 01:54:53,359 --> 01:55:00,079 is a man. We are both members of man. But there's not not 1540 01:55:00,199 --> 01:55:02,359 a thing called man. That's not a real thing. We don't there's not 1541 01:55:02,399 --> 01:55:06,800 a justification for this class of things. So this is the end result of 1542 01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:13,840 nominalism, which is humans on noomalists in most empiricists are normals. But I 1543 01:55:13,920 --> 01:55:16,560 mean you could say, Okay, Berkeley's not but nobody believes that world views, 1544 01:55:16,600 --> 01:55:20,560 so it's not relevant. So what this means, though, is that 1545 01:55:20,840 --> 01:55:24,760 it's not just a problem for language and predication, because once we do that, 1546 01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:29,520 guess what else goes out the window? Mathematics, universal laws, like 1547 01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,520 all of these things, they're out the window. And these are all just 1548 01:55:32,920 --> 01:55:41,239 just some of the examples of problems with reductionists, materialist world views, reductionist 1549 01:55:41,319 --> 01:55:45,279 materials, worthies. Okay, all right, Jesus, if you saw that, 1550 01:55:45,520 --> 01:55:47,920 if you if you saw the Stephon Debay, for example, I was 1551 01:55:48,000 --> 01:55:53,840 kind of making the same point, but with math talking about seven and coconuts. 1552 01:55:53,920 --> 01:55:56,520 That's the place I remember that. Yeah, that's your point. Yeah, 1553 01:55:57,560 --> 01:56:01,399 okay, Jesus, yeah, I I've never had to think about this 1554 01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:08,560 deep. So it's a lot to take in. Well, every atheist agnostic 1555 01:56:08,960 --> 01:56:13,359 person should read David him and the reason they should read David Hume is that 1556 01:56:13,600 --> 01:56:17,520 he's the consistent skeptic. And what happens when you really get Hume's argumentation is 1557 01:56:17,560 --> 01:56:21,359 that we realize that, well, if I'm going to take this worldview, 1558 01:56:23,119 --> 01:56:29,840 I don't really have a basis to argue because argumentation presupposes logic and logic can't 1559 01:56:30,119 --> 01:56:35,039 just be matter because you don't be a real law. You're you're appealing to 1560 01:56:35,079 --> 01:56:39,319 a metaphysic because it's non a physical thing that you could touch, taste, 1561 01:56:39,359 --> 01:56:42,720 or feel. Correct. I'm arguing that it has to be the case because 1562 01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:45,680 if we reduce it's, I mean, logic's gone. There's no way to 1563 01:56:45,760 --> 01:56:51,319 say that logic is matter. It's nonsense. Like where what atoms make up 1564 01:56:51,359 --> 01:56:55,720 the law of non contradiction? It's it's just nonsense. Okay, So then 1565 01:56:56,520 --> 01:57:01,199 how does religion account for Well, all religion is not built on the premise 1566 01:57:01,319 --> 01:57:08,399 that everything is reducible to matter, So religion is fundamentally not material a materialist 1567 01:57:08,439 --> 01:57:12,960 position. So religion, I would say, every religion I can think of 1568 01:57:14,399 --> 01:57:17,399 is believes in some notion of the transcendence. Yes, so you know, 1569 01:57:17,479 --> 01:57:21,199 when we talk about the transcendent, we don't just mean God. We also 1570 01:57:21,319 --> 01:57:28,239 mean things like universal's abstract categories, mathematical entities, et ceteratera, etcetera. 1571 01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,479 There's a great documentary I'll send you for example that kind of illustrates this point 1572 01:57:32,199 --> 01:57:36,359 on Mandelbrot sets and one of the things about Mannibroad sets that's fascinating. To 1573 01:57:36,399 --> 01:57:45,680 illustrate this point is that we couldn't really demonstrate a mandol brought set until computers 1574 01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:51,119 got to a certain level of sophistication to processing power to show like how intricate 1575 01:57:51,199 --> 01:57:57,880 they are. But they were positive prior to the computers. But then once 1576 01:57:58,000 --> 01:58:02,760 we computers could zoom in certain depths, then we were able to see the 1577 01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:14,520 like mathematical principles at work which are consistent just absolutely insane sequences of patterns with 1578 01:58:14,680 --> 01:58:20,760 regularity that cannot be It's that the human mind can't do it. In other 1579 01:58:20,800 --> 01:58:28,199 words, So what that shows is that these are mathematical principles that are discovered, 1580 01:58:29,479 --> 01:58:33,800 not created, and that means that probably the other ones were discovered, 1581 01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:38,119 they weren't made up as human social constructs. Right, so the law of 1582 01:58:38,199 --> 01:58:42,439 law, laws of logic or not human called social constructs their discoveries, and 1583 01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:48,760 that runs counter to materialism. Okay, now I get I'm getting I'm getting 1584 01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:53,399 it. Yeah, I've never heard explained like that. That's you said. 1585 01:58:53,399 --> 01:58:59,479 It's very very fascinating. All right, so you recommended I read David Hume 1586 01:59:00,079 --> 01:59:02,640 that that's the name, right. Yeah, Hume's good and his philosophy is 1587 01:59:02,680 --> 01:59:08,079 fairly accessible, like, it's not super difficult. I'm not saying you're dumb, 1588 01:59:08,159 --> 01:59:11,039 but just I'm saying, like for people that are not really familiar with 1589 01:59:11,119 --> 01:59:14,960 philosophy, and I'm not trying to make you a human skeptic. I'm just 1590 01:59:15,039 --> 01:59:19,279 pointing out that Hume's point is that if we're going to be consistent atheist, 1591 01:59:19,359 --> 01:59:25,800 imperious empiricist, and he was, his point is we can't give a rational 1592 01:59:26,000 --> 01:59:31,720 justification for logic induction the external world, identity over time, et cetera, 1593 01:59:31,720 --> 01:59:38,199 et cetera. Okay, Okay, If you're just interested in epistemology, the 1594 01:59:38,279 --> 01:59:43,880 book by the Epismology by WG. Wood is good. If you're interested in 1595 01:59:43,960 --> 01:59:45,720 the topic of Mandelbrot sets and what I'm talking about, there's a good book 1596 01:59:45,760 --> 01:59:51,319 by a guy I don't know what, but it's it's just along the lines 1597 01:59:51,359 --> 01:59:55,560 of kind of mathematics pointing to God. It's called A Mind of God by 1598 01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:59,439 Paul Davies. That's a good book. Those might be some books you find 1599 01:59:59,479 --> 02:00:01,399 interesting, and I'll I send you that Mandelbrot documentary, which is pretty cool. 1600 02:00:01,880 --> 02:00:05,239 Okay, cool, Well, then perhaps we should wrap on your recommendations 1601 02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:12,079 for your worldview. I got what would be like three books because I have 1602 02:00:12,119 --> 02:00:14,560 an audible credit coming up here soon. I know you're not supposed to listen 1603 02:00:14,560 --> 02:00:17,920 to audiobooks, but I'll probably buy a few more books because this stuff has 1604 02:00:17,960 --> 02:00:21,920 become incredibly fascinating to me. Jay, you were probably one of the smartest 1605 02:00:21,960 --> 02:00:29,039 people I've ever talked, and I've just smarter than me. So well, 1606 02:00:29,159 --> 02:00:31,960 well, on this podcast in almost three hundred episodes, I've had a lot 1607 02:00:32,000 --> 02:00:34,359 of great people on, and I definitely got to see you're probably one of 1608 02:00:34,399 --> 02:00:38,960 the smartest. Most This is wow. Okay, yeah, this is two 1609 02:00:39,079 --> 02:00:42,479 ninety one, so nine episodes away from three hundred. That's a feat. 1610 02:00:42,560 --> 02:00:45,520 Man. I know what it's like to do, so to hit three hundreds 1611 02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:49,079 is quite an accomplishment. I started back in October of twenty twenty one. 1612 02:00:49,239 --> 02:00:51,960 I used to do three episodes a week. But you know, between working 1613 02:00:53,000 --> 02:00:56,000 a full time job, playing in a band, and all that stuff, 1614 02:00:56,520 --> 02:01:00,399 it starts to get a little bit combersome on your life. So you said 1615 02:01:00,479 --> 02:01:04,800 three books that, oh man, that's a tough one. Maybe if need 1616 02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:13,720 be, I like, well, uh, my worldview like well, like 1617 02:01:13,960 --> 02:01:19,199 specifically or like specific topics, perhaps more like the last half hour of kind 1618 02:01:19,279 --> 02:01:26,199 of I don't want to say just philosophy, because I feel like we kind 1619 02:01:26,239 --> 02:01:29,880 of covered more than philosophy, but like when it comes to like skepticism, 1620 02:01:30,520 --> 02:01:33,039 empiricism, you know, pre Enlightenment, post Enlightenment, kind of like the 1621 02:01:33,119 --> 02:01:36,119 ideas of how we come to our beliefs in morals. It would be a 1622 02:01:36,119 --> 02:01:39,880 couple of books that you would recommend people read books. I'm going to get 1623 02:01:39,880 --> 02:01:46,600 those books. Ultimate Proof by doctor Jason Lyle L s l E. That's 1624 02:01:46,640 --> 02:01:51,600 a good presentation of the transcendental argument, uh in a very readable, accessible 1625 02:01:51,720 --> 02:02:01,239 form. It's about maybe two hundred fifty pages. A good critique of modernity 1626 02:02:01,319 --> 02:02:10,520 from an orthodox perspective is uh Nihilism Roots of the Modern Revolution by Father Sarah 1627 02:02:10,520 --> 02:02:14,840 from Rose. Oh, you know it's funny. You got that well, 1628 02:02:15,640 --> 02:02:17,880 a friend of mine sent me that. Okay, Yeah, that one's more 1629 02:02:18,079 --> 02:02:26,199 kind of a hitting you on a personal level, is more of it. 1630 02:02:26,279 --> 02:02:30,479 Yeah, it's like a philosophical critique of modernity. That one's good. One 1631 02:02:30,560 --> 02:02:42,720 more. Let me think maybe Reflections of a Russian Statesman might be good just 1632 02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:45,760 as a challenge to the to the libertarian ideas. Okay, yeah, I 1633 02:02:45,800 --> 02:02:49,000 got that one written down earlier. Yeah, okay, cool. Wow. 1634 02:02:49,159 --> 02:02:54,000 So this has probably been one of the most difficult conversations I thought it was 1635 02:02:54,039 --> 02:02:57,600 going to be that I've ever had on this podcast, and I'm very very 1636 02:02:57,680 --> 02:03:01,560 thankful that I'm much much rather drill into like these kinds of topics than like, 1637 02:03:02,239 --> 02:03:04,239 what do you think about Donald Trump? What do you think about Elon 1638 02:03:04,319 --> 02:03:09,319 Musk? Like that just gets so old, So that's yeah, no, 1639 02:03:09,399 --> 02:03:11,880 no, that's okay. I like to get the more meta of it, 1640 02:03:12,000 --> 02:03:15,399 because, like you said, I find like the the you know, the 1641 02:03:15,920 --> 02:03:18,159 mundane political topics to be so boring. But I would rather talk about like 1642 02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:23,319 the cause and effect and then kind of like how people are talking about it 1643 02:03:23,399 --> 02:03:26,279 and like why they're talking about it and why they feel the way they do. 1644 02:03:26,399 --> 02:03:28,760 Like that's such way more in our Yeah, we need to have more 1645 02:03:28,800 --> 02:03:32,199 conversations like that. That Paul Davies's Mind of God book, that's a fascinating 1646 02:03:32,239 --> 02:03:35,199 book. I I talked about that book quite a bit, like seven years 1647 02:03:35,239 --> 02:03:40,359 ago. I need to kind of resurrect that book because it's really good and 1648 02:03:40,479 --> 02:03:44,079 I haven't really covered that in seven or eight years. So now when you'll 1649 02:03:44,079 --> 02:03:46,680 find really fascinating I think you'll really like that book, Paul Davies's Mind of 1650 02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:51,560 God. Yeah, okay, he's a I forget what he is, but 1651 02:03:51,600 --> 02:03:59,079 he's basically looking at like mathematics and and there's a chapter on Mano broad Sets. 1652 02:03:59,079 --> 02:04:02,439 There's a chapter on raw for Penrose and various mathematicians who came to kind 1653 02:04:02,479 --> 02:04:10,920 of see the impossibility of materialism and what math shows us. So there's a 1654 02:04:10,960 --> 02:04:15,880 lot of stuff like that that basically mathematics shows that there's got to be some 1655 02:04:15,000 --> 02:04:19,359 sort of divine mind that's underlying everything. Sure, sure, okay, so 1656 02:04:19,399 --> 02:04:23,520 I'm definitely picking that one up. Then. Yeah, I got quite a 1657 02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:26,199 bit of reading in front of me. Now, Jay, go ahead, 1658 02:04:26,239 --> 02:04:30,039 give your plugs. Brother. I sincerely appreciate your time so much. Now, 1659 02:04:30,079 --> 02:04:34,960 that's a great conversation. I appreciate you handling it in a very civil 1660 02:04:35,039 --> 02:04:38,760 way when there's disagreement. A lot of times people can't they get, you 1661 02:04:38,840 --> 02:04:41,960 know, emotional, and they're all upset. You are way smarter than me 1662 02:04:42,039 --> 02:04:45,159 on all this stuff. So I will gladly see you the ground and just 1663 02:04:45,279 --> 02:04:48,000 listen, because this is I'm very open to changing my mind. I know 1664 02:04:48,119 --> 02:04:53,800 you this stuff, and you know I try to be as open minded as 1665 02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:57,399 possible so that way I can receive new information hopefully improve my life. Yeah, 1666 02:04:57,439 --> 02:05:00,880 I deally so, Yeah, that's exactly ho we should be. Yeah. 1667 02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:03,319 So you go to Jasonalysis dot com and everything that I do is always 1668 02:05:03,359 --> 02:05:08,960 there at that centralized website. I have a member section which goes back almost 1669 02:05:09,399 --> 02:05:14,359 eight or nine years now of content of lectures. We've got a philosophy course 1670 02:05:14,399 --> 02:05:17,239 that there with Richard Grove, which is separate from my website. But I've 1671 02:05:17,239 --> 02:05:23,119 got a lectures through like Plato's Republic and some of the dialogues. I've got 1672 02:05:23,479 --> 02:05:28,560 full lectures through Tragy and Hope. We got a lot of geopolitical content summarizing 1673 02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:33,159 fifty or so writings of the elite of the last one hundred years. We've 1674 02:05:33,199 --> 02:05:38,960 got a lot of interviews that we've done for the last ten years over there. 1675 02:05:39,079 --> 02:05:42,000 So yeah, that's at Jays Analysis. It's four ninety five a months, 1676 02:05:42,000 --> 02:05:44,600 six dollars a year. I've got three books on the website. You 1677 02:05:44,600 --> 02:05:46,520 can get signed copies in the shop. My wife also has a couple of 1678 02:05:46,520 --> 02:05:50,239 books there. She writes on similar topics to me, a lot of Hollywood 1679 02:05:50,279 --> 02:05:57,479 symbolism, that kind of stuff every Friday Fourth Hour Alex Jones, and then 1680 02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:03,279 we will be live in Los Angeles March fifteenth with Jamie Kennedy doing another one 1681 02:06:03,319 --> 02:06:05,800 of our live events. Our live events are a lot of fun. We 1682 02:06:05,880 --> 02:06:10,239 did big kind of five hour infotainment parties. We have stand up, we 1683 02:06:10,359 --> 02:06:15,479 have comedy, we have information like you heard tonight, and it's five hours 1684 02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:17,319 a lot of fun. Book signing, so that's in life. You're in 1685 02:06:17,359 --> 02:06:21,279 the Los Angeles area, come out March fifteenth and see us at that event. 1686 02:06:21,640 --> 02:06:26,399 And you can find me on Rock fin as well, which is a 1687 02:06:26,439 --> 02:06:30,199 great free speech based platform. A lot of my materials over there. That's 1688 02:06:30,199 --> 02:06:32,000 all I can think of. Yeah, man, Well, like I said, 1689 02:06:32,039 --> 02:06:35,479 I really appreciate your time. Every single show i've heard you on you 1690 02:06:35,560 --> 02:06:40,159 definitely got me thinking about stuff differently, and then particular this show as well, 1691 02:06:40,439 --> 02:06:43,239 I'm going to have to listen over probably two or three times to make 1692 02:06:43,239 --> 02:06:45,239 sure I got everything, and I'm going to continue your stuff. I would 1693 02:06:45,239 --> 02:06:48,880 love to get you back on to talk some geopolitics stuff. Yeah, I 1694 02:06:49,039 --> 02:06:53,279 think we would have. I don't think there's any disagreements, but I think 1695 02:06:53,560 --> 02:06:58,760 your analysis would be very, very productive for kind of like the libertarian and 1696 02:06:59,159 --> 02:07:03,319 any in anti interventionists. I called us perspective, So yeah, Jyfield, 1697 02:07:03,359 --> 02:07:06,479 anything else, I'll close her out. Yeah, I mean on the libertarian 1698 02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:10,840 front. You know, Richard Grove and I are good buddies and we've done 1699 02:07:11,079 --> 02:07:14,840 a lot of work together for many years. So you know, I have 1700 02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:16,560 a lot of interviews with him, and he's interviews with me, and I've 1701 02:07:16,560 --> 02:07:19,960 been on Granted World a lot, so you know, obviously have a lot 1702 02:07:20,000 --> 02:07:26,159 of affinities with the libertarian sphere and some disagreements. So I'm always happy to 1703 02:07:26,239 --> 02:07:30,319 have that conversation with you guys. Maybe not so much Austin Peterson, but 1704 02:07:31,399 --> 02:07:34,199 I don't think he was very rational though. He was like super emo. 1705 02:07:34,439 --> 02:07:38,880 But but yeah, man, I'd love to come back and have that conversation. 1706 02:07:39,439 --> 02:07:41,560 Nice man. Well all right, Jay, thank you so much. 1707 02:07:42,079 --> 02:07:44,359 We'll hopefully do it again. Everybody, Thank you so much for listening. 1708 02:07:44,399 --> 02:07:45,319 Until next time. Take care of it later.