1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,839 One of the things that it is very difficult for people to understand is the 2 00:00:04,879 --> 00:00:08,919 notion of the fall the idea that humans, that the world, that creation 3 00:00:09,279 --> 00:00:14,519 is somehow fallen. It's very difficult for second people to understand that. But 4 00:00:14,599 --> 00:00:19,079 I do believe in fact that people experience that every day and that it is 5 00:00:19,199 --> 00:00:25,199 in fact the idea of being fallen is in fact deeply knitted into the very 6 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,160 structure of their experience, everyday experience. You know, even in their own 7 00:00:30,199 --> 00:00:36,679 criticism of religion, this structure of fallenness is inserted. It's what I want 8 00:00:36,679 --> 00:00:39,640 to do is I want to look at all of that, think about it, 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:44,200 and hopefully give you some examples that will help you understand why we talk 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:58,000 about the notion that creation, that humans are fallen, and what that means. 11 00:01:02,159 --> 00:01:15,400 This is Jonathan Pejel. Welcome to the Symbolic World. And so if 12 00:01:15,439 --> 00:01:19,680 you enjoy what we're doing here at Symbolic World, before we start, make 13 00:01:19,719 --> 00:01:22,519 sure to go to the simbolic world dot com and become a member. You 14 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,040 can become a member completely free and join the community of wonderful discussion. But 15 00:01:27,079 --> 00:01:30,840 there are also ways that you can support what we're doing, and you can 16 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:34,719 get access to the monthly Q and a to a free monthly video, as 17 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:40,599 well as discounts on some of the products like the courses that we're doing. 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,760 And so thank you for your support. It is truly appreciated. Now. 19 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,400 One of the issues of the Fall, one of the things that makes it 20 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:53,200 difficult for people to understand what the fall is is a criticism that I brought 21 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,680 to many of the secularists is that in some ways they struggle to see their 22 00:01:57,719 --> 00:02:02,480 position, they struggle to see where they are, and you know, and 23 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,120 you see that, for example, in the Enlightenment. You can see that 24 00:02:07,159 --> 00:02:13,840 in Voltaire's criticism of Christianity. In some ways he criticizes Christianity for not doing 25 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,240 what he thinks that should be done, for not doing the good that he 26 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:21,599 thinks that should be done. And he sees the Enlightenment and kind of enlightenment, 27 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,680 the movement towards Enlightenment, as doing the good things in the world that 28 00:02:25,719 --> 00:02:30,039 should be done. Now, the problem with that type of thinking is that 29 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:35,599 if you say that, you nonetheless have this sense that there's a gap, 30 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:39,080 that there's a gap between what you think should be and what is in the 31 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:45,560 world. And that gap is very particular, it's very strange because if the 32 00:02:45,599 --> 00:02:49,479 world is fallen, like I mean not even I won't use the word falling. 33 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Yet, if the world is meaningless, if the world doesn't have telos, 34 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,840 if the world isn't bound in higher intelligence and purpose and reason, then 35 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,159 where does the gap come from? Why do we have this sense of the 36 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,199 distance? Now, on the other hand, if on the opposite side, 37 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:13,759 if the world is created by God, by a loving God, and you 38 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,800 know that it is full of meaning and tailors and purpose, then why is 39 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,680 there a gap? Then? You know? And this is of course something 40 00:03:22,719 --> 00:03:28,520 which can be explained by the notion of the fall. Now, the Gnostics, 41 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,199 they perceive that, right. You can see that in gnostic heresies, 42 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:37,360 in gnostic thinking, where people notice the difference between what they think they should 43 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:42,039 be and their current state, and so what they have to posit is that 44 00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:46,599 the world itself is born in some evil, that creation itself is evil, 45 00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:53,080 that the world itself is intrinsically fallen, and that we have to escape the 46 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:58,800 world into some higher sphere, to some spiritual state in order to be able 47 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:04,039 to escape the reality of the world. Now, this of course is also 48 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:09,439 a problem, because then why does the world exist, So you have to 49 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:13,759 posit that the world is evil in itself, and that the cause of the 50 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,160 world, you know, wherever it is. If you imagine some dark you 51 00:04:17,199 --> 00:04:21,519 know fall in God is the cause of the world. But you still keep 52 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:27,160 putting the problem further back. At some point there has to be some kind 53 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:33,000 of cosmic faull which accounts for the gap. Now, can the God only 54 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:39,399 be evil and this is something that you can see, or can the world 55 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,120 just be dark, meaningless and without purpose? And that again that causes the 56 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,879 problem that I mentioned at the outset, which is if so, then where 57 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,959 does our moral sense come from? If the origin of all things is simply 58 00:04:53,079 --> 00:04:59,319 dark and you know, nihilistic ultimately or evil or either way you want to 59 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:02,680 think about it, then where does our sense that something is wrong and that 60 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,600 we should do good? Where does our capacity to judge morally come from? 61 00:05:06,959 --> 00:05:11,360 This, of course, is the problem with Voltaire himself. This is what 62 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:15,839 Tom Holland has pointed out in his book Dominion that ultimately what Voltaire does is 63 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:21,839 he does a Christian criticism of Christianity. He has kind of taken for granted 64 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:29,199 Christian point of view and criticizes Christianity with it, and so we have to 65 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,959 be able to account for this gap. Now, this is really a good 66 00:05:32,959 --> 00:05:39,279 way to understand it. Now, if people struggle to go with the story 67 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,160 of the fall of Adam Adam and either we find in scripture or the fall 68 00:05:43,199 --> 00:05:46,360 of the Angel, that we find in more kind of extra biblical sources as 69 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:53,600 the cause for the gap and a way to enter into an explanation of the 70 00:05:53,639 --> 00:05:58,319 gap, then you nonetheless have to account for that gap. And this is 71 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,079 a serious problem. You have to be able to understand why it is that 72 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:08,959 we experience the difference. Now, a good way to understand it is that 73 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:15,160 in terms of our existence, our existence is bound in purpose. This is 74 00:06:15,199 --> 00:06:19,639 something that we've been talking about all the time, like what Jordan Peterson talks 75 00:06:19,639 --> 00:06:25,480 about the idea that and I've talked about this myself, and John Dravaki talks 76 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,920 about this, which is, you know, this Cogsi idea that what you 77 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,600 see in the world are purposes, like what you see in the worlds are 78 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:39,040 paths towards action, and so every identity that you perceive is put into a 79 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:45,439 hierarchy of identity and a hierarchy of purpose, and things appear as obstacles or 80 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,120 tools in order to get to your purpose. And so the very structure of 81 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:56,839 the way reality presents itself seems to have at least the possibility of the fall 82 00:06:56,959 --> 00:06:59,759 in it. And what do I mean by that? What I mean is 83 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,639 that if we see the world in telos, if we see the world through 84 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:09,000 purposes, that is, you know, I have certain purposes that are important 85 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:14,079 to me as a human and I establish my map of the world the identities 86 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,600 that I perceive in that hierarchy. First of all, then all my perceptions, 87 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:27,279 all my identities are participating in the sense of distance from purpose. And 88 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,839 so you can see how that is akin to the fall, which is the 89 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,160 perception that there is a gap between my state and the state that I want 90 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:41,480 to be. And this is of course what Dante describes in The Divine Comedy, 91 00:07:41,519 --> 00:07:48,480 the way that even classical philosophers talk about the relationship the motor of aeros, 92 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:55,040 right, the motor of desire, which moves us in our lack towards 93 00:07:55,079 --> 00:08:00,560 the tellos that presents itself to us, and we find rest in that movement. 94 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,639 So, of course it sounds very abstract at the outset, but it's 95 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,000 very very practical, which is that you know I have to go to the 96 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:13,360 store to go shopping. I see the door, and now I experience the 97 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,759 my I experience my purpose as a kind of suffering. That is a very 98 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:24,279 small suffering, but it's a suffering that is in the sense that I am 99 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:31,160 now not in line with my purpose. I have to cover the gap between 100 00:08:31,199 --> 00:08:33,879 what it is that I'm aiming at in my current state. And you can 101 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:41,279 say that that is a definition of suffering because you are not in your control 102 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,919 of the situation, right the aim that you have is not manifested in the 103 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,440 world. There's a gap between that, so you suffer and that suffering. 104 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,679 It's a very small suffering, but it is a suffering of desire that if 105 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,679 I suffer my distance from the door, and now I move towards the door, 106 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,279 and once I reach the door, then I am absolved, like I 107 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,799 am healed. I find rest from that suffering. Now, of course, 108 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:13,679 that suffering, you could say, or that desire is embedded in more and 109 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:18,080 more desires, so that you know, I'm always kind of moving from purpose 110 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:24,120 and tailos and desire into other purposes and tailos and desires, and so our 111 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:31,559 very perception of reality and our very engagement with reality seems to account for the 112 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,600 gap that's distanced between my state and the state that I'm looking for now. 113 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,879 Of course, we can see that in a proximal way, right, which 114 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:41,759 is, you know, I need to go to the store, and then 115 00:09:41,799 --> 00:09:48,120 I have this this little process of that'say, covering the fall and moving towards 116 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:54,360 the light, moving towards the reason, and then finding rest in that in 117 00:09:54,399 --> 00:09:58,120 that purpose. But of course, uh, you know, all of these 118 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,039 are you can also see it in a more kind of abstract way, which 119 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,879 is, what is the purpose of my life? What is the purpose of 120 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,200 my you know, you know, the purpose of my job? You know, 121 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,960 is it just to make money? But then why am I making money 122 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,279 if it's you know, if I if I want to have pleasure, but 123 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:18,679 then that pleasure is serving what purpose exactly? There seems to be something in 124 00:10:18,799 --> 00:10:24,279 us which is constantly let's say, yearning, and so you could describe it 125 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,120 in many ways. You can talk about the whole, the God's shaped hole 126 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,960 in the human being, and that God shaped hole is that gap. It's 127 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:37,240 the gap between the good that I perceive, even in intimation, these higher 128 00:10:37,279 --> 00:10:41,840 goods that I perceive, and my state of distance between the two. Now, 129 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,720 the story of Genesis is in my you know, opinion, is in 130 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:56,559 my perception. The best way to understand this gap, you know, because 131 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:03,399 it is to become conscious of the distance. You could say that the knowledge 132 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:09,279 of good and evil is in some ways to become conscious of your existence and 133 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:15,519 a kind of duality of inside and outside, a duality of me and the 134 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:20,879 purpose. There's this duality of the fact that I see the good and identify 135 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,320 myself in the place of bad, and now I have, all of a 136 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:30,039 sudden, I'm in this weird position where I have to cover that distance. 137 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:37,399 And so this it's the act of self consciousness itself, which is related to 138 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:43,759 this problem of all of a sudden seeing myself and seeing my distance to the 139 00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:48,840 good that I am, that I'm pursuing. And so the description of one 140 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:54,200 of the facets of the description of the fall in Genesis is related to the 141 00:11:54,320 --> 00:12:01,360 very, very desire to explain that distance within us and to make it and 142 00:12:01,399 --> 00:12:07,080 to help people understand that. It's related to self consciousness, it's related to 143 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,039 duality. It's related to the perception of good purpose tellos reason and bad, 144 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:20,080 which is distant sinfulness, you know, the the missing the mark being far 145 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,799 from the mark, being far from the thing then that I'm aiming at, 146 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:28,080 right, it's the distance between the two. And this is of course exactly 147 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:35,000 describing Genesis. Now the question is how do you cover the gap? And 148 00:12:35,159 --> 00:12:39,320 this is of course what Christ comes to show us. But it's not a 149 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:43,240 very pleasant one. At least that the outset it doesn't seem very pleasant. 150 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,639 Is that in some ways we have to say yes to the dying. We 151 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,519 have to say yes to the state of death that we're in. Yes in 152 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,879 the sense that we have to die on purpose instead of dying per in, 153 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:03,080 you know, on act accident. We have to sacrifice everything towards the aim 154 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:11,639 that we have, and that in that sacrifice, the suffering will become more 155 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,600 than suffering. It will be a kind of attractor, a kind of thing 156 00:13:15,639 --> 00:13:20,000 that sucks us into the good that we're aiming at, and we will find 157 00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:24,879 a type of joy in the suffering, not a kind of masochism, not 158 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:31,200 an enjoying of the suffering, but a joy in knowing that we suffer in 159 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,120 order to come closer to the purpose that we're aiming at. And that definitely 160 00:13:35,159 --> 00:13:41,399 seems to be the path that Christ takes and the path of the martyr. 161 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,720 You could say, of course, the martyr is an extreme version where all 162 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:50,080 of a sudden the martyr has to issue all their proximal goals. All there's 163 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,159 little goals, right, the goal of feeling my belly, the goal of 164 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:58,399 having a family, the goal of doing this and that, and they end 165 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,399 up, let's say, being willing to suffer all the lack of those little 166 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:07,480 goals in order to be able to reach the highest purpose. You know. 167 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:09,399 And then you realize that once you realize that, you realize that you do 168 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,440 that all the time. Actually that in fact, that structure of being willing 169 00:14:13,519 --> 00:14:18,799 to suffer in purpose towards proximal goals, it's something you do, right that 170 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:22,039 people who train, or people who learn to write, or people who learn 171 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:26,159 anything. When you're learning, you are suffering. I mean, it's we 172 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,519 have to be careful how we take this suffering in the sense that we are 173 00:14:31,039 --> 00:14:35,320 sacrificing our time and energy, and there's a kind of a pain that is 174 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,480 submitted to a higher purpose. But if we know what the higher purpose is 175 00:14:39,519 --> 00:14:46,440 and we're moving in that higher purpose, you know, with a kind of 176 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,679 consciousness of our situation, which is a consciousness of the distance between the two. 177 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,639 Then that suffering can be a kind of joy, and even the discipline 178 00:14:54,799 --> 00:15:00,720 of learning something, the kind of sacrifice that you put into the higher things 179 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:05,039 can become a type of like a type of glory and a type of joy. 180 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,919 And that's what we ultimately see, of course in the Martyr as the 181 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,080 ultimate example, which is everything, his whole life, everything about them. 182 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:18,559 They're willing to sacrifice and to give up all these proximal goals in order to 183 00:15:18,759 --> 00:15:22,279 look at the highest goal. And you could say that in the Fall of 184 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,440 the Garden of Eden, this is particularly true because Adam and Eve, when 185 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,039 they eat the fruit of the Knowledge of good and evil, they have access 186 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,679 to the tree of life, and so they perceive far more before they ate 187 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,720 the fruit. You know, it's like they couldn't see the tree of life. 188 00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:43,679 This is of course the way it's presented in sant Ephraim, the Siring 189 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,279 especially. You know that it was a kind of barrier for the tree of 190 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,960 life. And once they took the apple of the knowledge of good and evil, 191 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,200 then they saw the good, and then they saw it from the position 192 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,600 of distance, and then had to cover that distance in pain. And they 193 00:15:58,639 --> 00:16:03,720 refuse us to suffer. They refuse to die at that moment, and that 194 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:08,879 brought about the entire loop of human history and everything about it. But Jesus 195 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:15,720 seems to show us a different way. But for sure, what's important to 196 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:21,799 understand is that they the image of the fall. Of course, there's a 197 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,639 moral element to it, you know, because we usually experience that in morality 198 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,200 terms, like we see the good that we want to do, and then 199 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,639 we realize that we're not doing it, and we see the consequences of not 200 00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:37,720 doing it, and so we suffer from our sinfulness because we can't get to 201 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:41,120 the good we want, you know. But this is true of everything. 202 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,480 It's not just true of moral questions. It's true of all aspects of moving 203 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:51,559 towards purpose. Every time you move towards purpose, you will have that problem 204 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,519 of the gap between where I want to go and where I am. And 205 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,519 no matter how much of a secular risk you are, even if you refuse 206 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:06,200 to accept the story version, the mythological imagery and the image of the falling 207 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,599 of the angels because of pride, the image of the taking of the fruit 208 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:15,160 for wheneself, you still have to be able to account for that, and 209 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,880 then that causes a problem because usually what happens when people don't try to account 210 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:26,000 for it is they end up being a kind of critic of religion, critic 211 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:33,839 of Christianity, you know, a critic of the religious aspect or moralistic aspect 212 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:40,319 of the world while ignoring their own position, not knowing that they are unconsciously 213 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,640 perceiving that good that's calling them, and they're using the light of that good 214 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:51,200 to criticize the failures of the current the current models. But then they don't 215 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,480 try to account for that, and they don't try to make it part of 216 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,400 their worldview, and they don't have a way to make it part of their 217 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,240 worldview. Because if we're just a bunch of random, you know whatever, 218 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:10,160 particles hitting each other and there is no sense that there is a structural relationship 219 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,839 between our state and what we're perceiving is being good, then yeah, then 220 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:18,319 we're deluting ourselves. And so I know this was a little difficult, but 221 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,720 I've been thinking about this for a long time, So please tell me if 222 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,160 if this is clear in the comment section. I would love to see what 223 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,839 your thoughts are, because I'm trying to refine this argument obviously, and then 224 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,240 hopefully you know, if there are ways to improve what I'm saying. I 225 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:37,200 will try to take another path of this and try to get it even clearer 226 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:38,960 and better. But I'm really on the edge of my thinking with this. 227 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:44,480 This is this is really kind of pushing my thinking as hard as I can, 228 00:18:44,519 --> 00:18:47,559 and you know, as much to the edge as what as what I 229 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:49,279 can. And so I thank you for your attention, I thank you for 230 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:52,960 your support, and I will talk to all of you very soon, bybye. 231 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,920 If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic world 232 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,519 dot com website and see how you can support what we're doing. There are 233 00:19:00,599 --> 00:19:04,920 multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So 234 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,640 go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you for your support.