WEBVTT

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Old years. It should die.
People pay good money to see this movie.

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When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas hof hoofcorn

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in No Masters. In the Projection
Booth, everyone for ten. Podcasting isn't

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boring? Turn it off. Something
stalks the streets, something possessed of animal

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cunning and fury. I understand you
know something. I'm the White Shapel matter.

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I have seen the man Jack the
Ripper. Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson

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plunge into the Victorian underworld seeking the
answers to the most puzzling case in the

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annals of crime. Who is Jack
the Rivers? Why does he let them

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keep you? A story that at
last and reveals the identity of history's most

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elusive murderer. A stunning cast rout
together with an astonishing story, one of

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the great screen entertainments in the classic
tradition, murder my decree. Welcome to

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the Projective Booth. I'm your host, Mike White joined me once again,

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is mister Aaron Peterson. Hello.
Also back in the booth is mister David

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McGregor, And once again it's a
delight to be here. We conclude our

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month of discussions around the nineteen seventies
interpretations of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's consulting detective

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Sherlock Holmes. We wrap up with
nineteen seventy ninth Murder by Decree, directed

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by Bob Clark. The film is
a mix of British and Canadian actors,

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including Christopher Plummer as Sherlock Holmes and
James Mason as Doctor Watson. The fictional

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pair are put on the path of
the very real Jack the Ripper, one

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of Britain's most famous serial killers.
We are going to be spoiling the film

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as well as probably from Hell and
Study and Terror. So if you don't

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want those movies ruined to just go
ahead and turn off the podcast, go

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watch those and come back after you
have we will still be here. So,

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Aaron, when was the first time
you saw Murder by Decree and what

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did you think, Sir? I
don't remember it. I was a kid.

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I don't know that. But I
went to seek this one out because

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I remember seeing Black Christmas and going
that's a crazy movie, and wanted to

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find other films that Bob Clark had
directed. Didn't realize un till many many

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years later, that he also did
Christmas story guys had an eclectic career.

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Porkys too, right, he did
Porky's. I don't know if he did

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Porky's too, but he did Porky's. Also. I saw Black Christmas,

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Love Black Christmas, and then someone
told me he did at Sherlock Holmes,

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which of course I'm a Sherlock Holmes
buff. So I went nuts and went

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to seek this out. And this
is probably of the four we've done,

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this is probably my favorite, to
be perfectly honest and to Eva, how

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about yourself. I would have seen
this most likely in the late nineteen eighties,

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coming to it after kind of getting
more interested in Sherlock Holmes with a

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Jeremy Brett TV series that came out
in nineteen eighty four, and I was

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looking for other interpretations of the character. And you know, I've heard good

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things about this, and so yeah, probably late nineteen eighties, because I'm

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coming to it out of the Jeremy
Brett series and the Jeremy Brett series.

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He is very heroic, he's brilliant, he's very capable, a little bit

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trickly, and so for me,
as much as I like the ambiance and

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the photography and the story, The
Homes of Christopher Plumber kind of fell flat

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because he's just not a very good
detective. He's a better human being.

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I mean, he's crusading around London, crying and feeling sorry for people,

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but he's just really, really bad
at his job. It was kind of

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hit and this for me, I
liked everything about it, but the new

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humanized homes did not, you know, exactly set the world on fire as

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far as I was concerned. And
how do you feel about it today?

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I we watched it for this podcast, and because of the kind of cultural

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weight that the Rathbone Bruce films had. I mean, even in the reviews

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for this film, people were still, you know, they were comparing Christopher

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Plumber to Basil Rathbone. And you
know Rathbone his last film as Sherlock Holmes

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was nineteen forty six. And James
Mason's Watson is compared to Nigel Bruce.

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It's like, oh, well,
how great. He's not Nigel Bruce.

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He's very Nigel Bruce. Like he
is a little bit dottering. You know

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the famous scene in the movie with
him and his pa, that's right out

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of Nigel Bruce. He is a
kind of almost petulant child worried about his

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pet. Yeah, what are you
doing. I'm trying to corner the last

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pe on my plate squashed, ma
pe. Now you've got to corner.

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Yeah, it was squashing it from
his pa. I'm just trying to help.

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I didn't want it squashed. It
didn't like it that way squashed.

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And I get who says, Judan
feeled pop when you writing down at it.

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I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking.
Do I like the film, Yeah,

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I do. I just personally,
I'm not a huge fan of the

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idol smashing versions of Sherlock Holmes.
I like him to be competent, and

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he's just not in any of the
films that we're considering, except, oddly

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enough, The Adventure of Sherlock Holmes
is a smarter brother. Yeah, Holmes

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is in good form in that,
but he's not the focus. He's barely

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in the movie. The other three
films that we're considering, private life seven

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percent solution. In this film,
he's pretty pretty broken and not very effective

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at his ostensible job. I really
wonder if that again. We talked at

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the end of the last episode about
the seventies and taking those idols and smashing

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them and how the seventies affected stuff. I mean the way that this movie

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plays out, and I'm just going
to jump right into it. This whole

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idea of the Freemason's being responsible for
a cover up of the murders of these

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people. It is so much a
conspiracy, paranoid thriller type of thing that

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I just really see this fitting in
very well, Like to your point,

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maybe not in the Sherlock Holmes cannon, but in nineteen seventy nine. This

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was perfect for nineteen seventy nine.
And it matches up with Ripper Laura too.

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I mean Ripper. There's a lot
of freemasony and conspiracy theory there two

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and they're just trying to tie it
with Sherlock Holmes. And I like the

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humanistic portrayal that Plumber has here.
It's very much the more relatable homes,

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not necessarily the homes of the books, but it's still a Sherlock Holmes and

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he makes it his own, and
I really I loved his approach. I

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really really did. Even though it's
not true, it's not true to the

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books. I will agree with David
on that it's not true to the character

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of Holms. I don't agree that
he's not good at his job. I

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just think because of the nature of
the crime he's solving, he can't really

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do anything publicly without I mean,
it's Jack the Ripper. It's an unsolvable

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case. Everything has to me behind
closed doors. Well, as is quite

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out in the film. Though he's
working for the bad guys. He's working

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for the government. They're trying to
find this you know, this missing woman,

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and he's also working for the radicals, and much like in seven Percent

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Solution, he's the hog being used
to find truffles. He doesn't even realize

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what he's doing. He gets knocked
out twice and as he says at one

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point, I led the killers write
to Mary Kelly. I led them write

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to their final victim, and yes
he did. I like my heroes to

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be at least somewhat heroic. I
mean, he isn't worked human absolutely,

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because he starts the film and he
is, you know, the kind of

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stereotypical, completely out of touch,
upper class tough. He's attending you know,

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the opera with Watson in his own
private booth. They both have white

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ties on, and when he's called
upon by the merchants of Whitechapel, you

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know, we've got these women being
slaughtered in the streets. It'd be nice

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if you could help us. He's
not interested at all at all. He's

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just, you know, he's obsessed
with cleaning his pipe out. I didn't

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read it that way. The way
that I'm reading it is it's it's Holmes

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playing with them like he doesn't he
doesn't know if he wants to work for

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them specifically, but he's intrigued by
the case. That's the way that I

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took it. Okay, Well,
even Watson says, you were really rude.

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So it was those people, Yeah, which is more of the Sherlock

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Holmes I'm used to, you know, more of that Benedict cumber badge.

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I'm not paying attention, but I
actually am paying attention kind of thing,

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or I'm just putting you off type
of thing. Yeah, I'm not going

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to try to pile onto the movie. I find it kind of interesting that

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one of the main characters, and
here ish is Donald Sutherland as Robert Lee's

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a psychic, and that Holmes goes
along with this. I'm just like,

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it feels like Sherlock Holmes would never
listen to somebody who purports to be a

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psychic. No, not to this
degree. No. I found it interesting

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though that when you watch those scenes, there's a kind of a like a

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dreamy effect to show what Sutherland sees
and his psychic powers. And then there's

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another one, but that's more of
a flashback, and I think he actually

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gets like two flashbacks. So he
gets two flashbacks and a psychic vision,

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but they're all kind of treated the
same, so they're treated almost like the

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truth. Holmes is just like okay, yeah, I'll go along with this.

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Gets some of his best clues from
a psychic vision. I think he

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was fascinated by it is the way
that it's basically laid out. You're right,

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schlock. Holmes would never take the
word of a psychic, but he

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would be intrigued by He was always
intrigued by odd teas, so that would

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he would listen, He would hear
him out. He would listen. But

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I think it would be more to
figure out if he's actually complicit in some

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respect. Yeah, yeah, I
would put him on the suspect list if

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he came to be and said,
oh I had this psychic vision or somehow

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sure Lack would have to kind of
undermine him and be like well, good,

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my good man, you actually saw
this person here and then he implanted

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into your dreams. Blah blah blah. You know, my good friend Sigmund

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Freud would tell you all about it
again. With the nineteen seventies, the

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nineteen seventies were just rife. You
know, we talked about the Freemasons,

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and this really implicates the Freemasons as
being complicit in the Jack the Ripper case,

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and that goes back to while it
goes back a long ways, but

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it was really kind of formalized by
a couple of writers who wrote The Ripper

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File. They had also worked on
a Jack the Ripper miniseries from nineteen seventy

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three. And then there was also
I can't remember it was those writers or

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another one who was part of the
episode on In Search Of In Search of

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Arthur C. Clark's Mysterious World,
and it feels like there was one other

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one. I mean, the nineteen
seventies were really a golden time for conspiracy

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theories, like before we came to
where we're at here twenty twenty three.

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But when I was a kid,
I was just glue to the TV when

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In Search Of was on, because
almost everything was presented not necessarily as just

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a mystery, but it was really
very creepy the way that they would lay

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these things out. During the autumn
of eighteen eighty eight, there occurred one

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of the most baffling crimes in the
files of Scotland Yard. In a White

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Chapel area of London's East End,
women walked in fear of their lives.

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A wave of terror had been caused
by an elusive murderer known as Jack the

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River. It was very much like
watching Lights Out or some sort of spook

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show from the nineteen fifties, or
listening to the radio and getting the Bejesus

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scared out of you In Search of
did that for me? I don't know

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if I went back and I watched
In Search of Now if I would be

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as freaked out. But man,
oh man, when I was watching when

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I was a kid, just the
opening credits were enough to make my skin

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crawl. And then when you get
something like you know, the Jack the

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Rippers story being told in that format
that they had with Leonard Nimoy narrating it,

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man, it was a really damn
scary show and this kind of fits

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right in there. And it's great
that Clark, I mean Clark at this

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point he directed one kind of like
a revenge type thriller type thing, but

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really so much of his work to
this point was horror movies. We talked

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on Mark Beagley's Wake Up Heavy.
He had me on there for an episode

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about Deranged about death, dream about
well, actually he came onto the projection

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booth about Black Christmas and there was
one other one, Oh, children shouldn't

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play with dead things. And so
having Clark be a director of this Jack

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the Ripper story, I mean he's
using a lot of tricks that he used

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from Black Christmas idea of this slasher. Yeah, this is right there,

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Like I was expecting the Ripper to
ask how Billy's doing. It's like,

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um, Sherlock Holmes gets his own
PG rated horror movie with really how it

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works out? Yeah, this was
PG rated. A lot of people thought

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it should have been R rated kind
of with him on that, honestly,

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But it was the era of Chariots
of the Gods, im Pyramid Power,

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you know, all those had a
vogue. One point I would make about

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inserting supernatural elements into a Sherlock Holmes
story, it's it's worth noting that was

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a real concern of Sherlock Holmes fans, especially in the nineteen twenties when Arthur

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Conandra was still writing stories. He
personally was deeply, deeply invested in spiritualism.

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He wrote a book about fairies.
He was pretty credulous. But he

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drew the line at Sherlock Holmes,
as he he said in one of the

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stories, uh, you know,
at Homes talking to Watson, this agency

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stands flat footed on you know,
solid ground, on the earth. No

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ghosts need apply. And so that
was kind of a relief to fans of

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the rigidly logical Sherlock Holmes. But
other people have certainly tried to invest,

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uh, you know, supernatural themes
into the stories, and there weren't the

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original stories. You know, the
potential was there in The Hound of the

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Baskervilles, in The Sussex Vampire,
there were was the potential for supernatural elements,

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but there was always a perfectly logical, very down to earth, rationalist

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human reason that we had been dressed
up to look supernatural sco as it were.

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Yeah. Well, Arthur Connon Doyle's
father was a very talented artist who

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wound up in an asylum. He
died in an asylum, and a lot

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of people felt Arthur Connon Doyle was
headed down the same path. And his

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was a case in which, as
you can see more recently with George Lucas

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and Star Wars or JK. Rowling
and Harry Potter, the fans to a

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certain extent kind of took Sherlock Holmes
away because you know, Arthur Condrell was

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maybe not one hundred percent trustworthy with
this thing that they really valued because of

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his I mean, he opened up
a bookstore, a spiritualism bookstore in Westminster,

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and he was spending hundreds of thousands
of pounds. When he came to

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the United States, he came to
do a tour of lectures on spiritualism.

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So it was a real concern of
fans of Sherlock Holmes that he was going

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to eventually fall prey to wanting to
insert more spiritualistic themes into the Sherlock Holmes

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stories. But he never did.
A lot of where you fall on a

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lot of these particular films are where
do you sit as a Sherlock Holmes,

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as a Holmesian, so to speak. If you're a purist, you don't

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want to dva too far from the
books, right, you don't want to

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get too far from the written word. But when something's been reincorporated over two

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hundred times by two hundred plus different
writers, at some point, you know,

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is it really the same work anymore? Or is it something? Is

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it? Is it really owned by
more by the public than it is the

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original written word, Because that same
character can be utilized in supernatural and horror

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and different elements. If someone appreciates
the substance of the character, it's it's

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a tricky thing. I think if
you are an absolute purist, If you

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are if you are very beholden to
the original written text, a lot of

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these films are not going to work
for you in general. But if you're

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open to expanding the world, trying
new things, seeing where it fits,

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I think you're more open to a
lot of these. And that's really a

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lot of these are. They're just
taking a lot of license with the character

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itself. I am one of those
writers. I've written three Sherlock Holmes plays

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and I adapted them into novels.
And yeah, there's people that would say

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to me, why can't you do
like a straight Sherlock Holmes story. You

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know, doctor Watson, Sherlock Holmes
mystery the end, And yeah, one

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of the problems with at is mysteries
don't translate in the same way that some

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genres do to film or stage,
because it's not especially if you're watching a

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play. The audience doesn't want to
be sitting there trying to remember clues.

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You know. They want action,
they want humor, they want romance.

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Yeah, they want mystery, but
it can't be just an armchair detective sitting

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in his rooms. That's for most
people, that's not going to be enough.

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So you add other elements. And
in my case, I tried to

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remain very true to what I thought
was the spirit of Sherlock Holmes, which

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was this is somebody who is basic
instinct is to help people and to use

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his ability to use his skill.
Doesn't matter what strata of society you come

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from. He wants to help people, and he's a good guy and his

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friendship with Watson is part of the
appeal of the stories. And so,

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yeah, you riff on it,
but at least for me anyway, I

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wanted to be faithful in many ways
to the general thrust of the story.

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In the last movie, we talked
about how both Freud and Homes were contemporaries,

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and in this they really explore this
idea. And we'll talk about some

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other interpretations of Holmes meets the Jack
the Ripper later on, but you know,

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here again we've got a contemporary of
Sherlock Holmes, and I think,

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David, you also deal with contemporaries
of homes and that's what I've read in

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the rest of the Nick Meyers stuff. It's apart from well, I guess

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even in The Canary Trainer, which
is kind of Holmes meets the Phantom of

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the Opera, But again there are
still real character, real people that he's

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injecting into this. And then they're
you know, I mentioned either last week

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or the week before, this whole
idea of Holmes and George Bernard Shaw or

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Oscar Wilde or even brom Stoker,
all of them are in London at the

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same time kind of thing. And
with this, you've got world's greatest detect

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versus one of the world's greedious quote
unquote serial killers, one of the best

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unsolved cases that there's ever been.
And like I was saying, you've got

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all of these things going on in
the seventies where you've got different books being

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written about Jack the Ripper or all
this happening, I guess because maybe it

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was ninety years or I don't know
exactly what was in the air. But

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really, Jack the Ripper has been
in movies, probably not as many times

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as Sherlock Holmes, but I would
say he probably gives him a good run

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for his money. Even the same
year that this movie came out, we

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had another Nick Myer property. It
was Jack the Ripper Versus H. G.

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Wells in Time after Time, one
of my most favorite movies. And

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yeah, it was amazing to see
how often Jack the Ripper showed up in

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movies. I mean, I would
be curious if there's a list out there

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of how many times he's shown up
or people that are very much like the

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Jack the Ripper. I mean,
it's really kind of wild, but I

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thought it was very smart that they
say, Okay, how would Sherlock Holmes

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saw this case and get into your
guys's earlier points. It's interesting that they

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start off with three people already being
murdered, and Sherlock Holmes doesn't seem to

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give a toss about these people being
murdered. It isn't until he is approached

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by these merchants and kind of gets
the taste for it and says, oh,

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maybe I will take this case on. I saw I still saw that

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definitely than you guys did, though. I saw that as he was intrigued

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by it, but he wasn't requested
on it. And then when he got

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the direct request and he was more
fascinated about it, you know, he

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didn't want to overstep. And then
you kind of like see the gradual increasing

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humanistic qualities of him as he gets
more and more involved in the case,

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and it's it's probably the most relatable
Sherlock Holmes I can actually think of,

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Like he's very, very normal,
every day Joe in this. So I

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saw that a little differently than you
guys did. Well, there were people

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that wrote to Arthur Connon Doyle.
You know, you're the creator of Sherlock

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Holmes, here's a mystery, and
he was asked about. As far as

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I know, he never made any
serious inquiries into Jack the Ripper, But

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there were other cases. There was
a guy named Oscar Slater, there was

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another guy named George at Dalgey who
were charged with crimes or suspective of crimes,

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and Conon Doyle took up the cudgel
on their behalf because people felt the

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creator of Sherlock Holmes as somebody who
can help me. He was a very

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kind of a crusading guy in his
own right. He had a strong sense

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of what was right and wrong.
And you know, as you mentioned George

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Bernard Shaw. You know, one
of the famous quotes about Arthur Conan Doyle

290
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is people would rather be wrong with
Conon Doyle than right with Bernard Shaw,

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because he was an everyman. He
was beloved. He was the author of

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Sherlock Holmes. He was a sportsman, he was a patriot. He was

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very, very highly regarded by most
of British society. Mike, you were

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just talking about Jack the Ripper and
all the films, and I remember seeing

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it everywhere as a kid, you
know, just Jack the Ripper is everywhere.

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How do you how do you guys
feel about the idea that this seems

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to be really the only serial killer
in history that is grotesquely treated almost as

298
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a fictional property. I don't feel
that the gravity of what occurred at that

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time is really taken into account in
almost anything that's based on that Jack the

300
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Ripper appears in. Yeah, after
a while, you start to think that

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Jack the Ripper is as equally fictional
as Sherlock Holmes. Isn't it a little

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disturbing? But I mean in some
respects, Yeah, even thinking about I

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was just thinking about Jack the Ripper
movies, and I think, you know,

304
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.079
even going back to you know,
The Lodger, the Hitchcock film,

305
00:23:53.200 --> 00:23:57.640
obviously the movie you're familiar with,
that one with your your Hitchcock podcast.

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Well he's basically stand in for Jack
the Ripper. And that's how many years

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after these crimes actually take place in
nineteen twenty seven, so yeah, forty

308
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:18.359
stand and that's an early that was
still in the silent era. Well,

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he was never caught. He's the
perfect mythic bogey man, I mean his

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historically. Yeah, there's some really
dark characters out there. I mean,

311
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:33.279
you know, Elizabeth Bathy, the
Countess from Hungary, I believe was a

312
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:37.519
nasty piece of work, but with
the tabloids that they had at that time,

313
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in the newspaper coverage that the killing's
got, and it just had a

314
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:47.079
mythic quality to it almost from the
outset, the alleys of Whitechapel, the

315
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:52.400
slums of London, the fog,
this you know, remorseless killer going after

316
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:56.599
helpless women. Um, it kind
of ticked off all the marks of this

317
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:02.680
is obviously horrific, beyond her rific, but it's a great story and it's

318
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gotten you know, a lot of
attention in part because of that. It's

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it's almost timeless, and I don't
think you're gonna see Jack the Ripper stories

320
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or you know, tames kind of
generated from that disappearing in any time soon.

321
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It's just something that's always astounded me
to and I'm guilty. I've watched

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a ton of these movies. I've
I've watched so many of them. Can't

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keep drag. It's it's way what
five women that occurred over three and a

324
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half months, right, And it's
it's captured the cinema escape for ever since,

325
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ever since, the entire the entirety
of cinema has had Jack the Ripper

326
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:41.240
in it, almost creating this this
whole fictional aura and no other There's there's

327
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:47.200
tons of unknown serial killer cases out
there, none on the Zodiac. How

328
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:52.559
many Zodiac killer movies that are that
seem fictional are out there, Probably none,

329
00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.079
they're the ones based on the case. There might be a couple out

330
00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.519
there that are like Great b or
something okay kind of movies, but nothing

331
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:02.920
like Jack the Ripper. And I
don't understand why we've done that with this

332
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:06.640
particular case, probably because, like
David's said, it's just so fascinating in

333
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.039
terms of the dynamics of it.
But it's it's wild how we just basically

334
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:14.559
treat it like it is a work
of fiction. Well, just the idea

335
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:18.000
too, of the supernatural. And
there's movies. There was what a James

336
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.519
Spader movie called Jack's Back, where
it's the idea of and I think Scotty

337
00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.519
on Star Trek got possessed by the
spirit or Jack the Ripper on one episode

338
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:32.559
as well. And you know there
was when I wrote about William Freakin's Cruising,

339
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:36.440
I was talking about how, more
than anything, it feels like the

340
00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:41.599
spirit of a killer gets inside and
passes from one person to the other.

341
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And I made comparisons between you know, the killer that's in Cruising that just

342
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.000
kind of moves from person to person, you know, because you never see

343
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:53.079
how hot, you know, the
height changes, the body shape, change

344
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:56.079
all this stuff. And I'm just
like, well, what if it actually

345
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.599
is just moving from person to person, Well, if it's the spirit of

346
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Jack the Ripper and even you know, we'll talk a little bit more about

347
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.440
Dust and Shadow, but there's talking
there about, oh there were other famous

348
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:10.079
killers in London, how about the
London Monster and how about this? And

349
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I'm just like, is she gonna
go the author? Is she going to

350
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:17.200
go into like this happens every forty
years or something like that. It's like

351
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.559
a Victor Toombs type of thing,
where you know, the evil goes into

352
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:25.440
hibernation and that comes out. But
yeah, it was this whole idea of

353
00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:30.440
the killer that comes out of the
fog and goes back and then disappears after

354
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:33.200
these five horrific killings. Whatever happened
to this guy. Yeah, it just

355
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.319
kind of lends itself to that supernatural
flayer. So having a psychic in here

356
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.880
kind of makes sense. But you
know, at the same time, it's

357
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.279
it is interesting, like you were
saying, David, that we didn't have

358
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:49.880
the supernatural in homes, which I
kind of appreciate. And then I noticed

359
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:55.440
that so many movies will try to
move into that, I mean, or

360
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.039
they'll give us a nice logical explanation. I mean, we talked way back

361
00:27:59.640 --> 00:28:03.440
for weeks ago about Young Trilock,
Holmes, and that seems like there's a

362
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.480
lot of supernatural stuff in it until
you realize, oh no, somebody's being

363
00:28:07.559 --> 00:28:11.279
drugged and that's why they're seeing all
of these hallucinations. Well, there's a

364
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:18.599
big market for that particular slice of
any kind of narrative. I have students

365
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.920
that I don't know if it's still
on. They were big fans of the

366
00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:25.799
show ghost Hunters. All iways ask
them, have you ever wondered why the

367
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.680
show wasn't called ghost Finders. You
don't have to find anything to make it

368
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:32.680
a good show and for it to
be an entertaining narrative. And I think

369
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.440
part of the appeal of Jack the
Ripper as well as I want to say,

370
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:40.119
it's like what every twenty years,
twenty five years, there's a big

371
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:44.400
splash, I know who it is, here's the killer and here's the proof,

372
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:47.680
and everybody gets all excited, Oh
my god, it's this, it's

373
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:51.000
that. In this case, it's
Prince Eddie. And then it's like that

374
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:55.839
gets you know, gradually debunked by
people actually looking at actual data. The

375
00:28:55.960 --> 00:29:00.240
Ripper keeps on getting, you know, brought up because it's money, you

376
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:06.599
can monetize it, and people you
love that story. Clark shows us pretty

377
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.559
early on parts of the face of
the killer, so it doesn't keep him

378
00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:14.720
in shadow and POV shots and all
this for too long. I mean,

379
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.440
pretty early on in the movie.
You know, I talked about how when

380
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:23.559
we see Nicole Williamson's eye in the
seven Percent Solution, that we see that

381
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.960
first and he's got that, you
know, the super wide pupil that he's

382
00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:32.200
all strung out in this movie pretty
early on, and we get a shot

383
00:29:32.200 --> 00:29:34.480
at the ripper's eyes and we'll talk
about from how later on, but it's

384
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:40.680
very similar where it's almost pure black
and then just this tiny pin prick of

385
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.519
a pupil. So we're kind of
getting parts of the face and we just

386
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:48.279
don't know exactly whose face it is. And then once it's revealed, it's

387
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.000
like, I don't know who these
guys are. Like it takes until this

388
00:29:52.559 --> 00:30:00.319
theory protracted explanation at the end of
this where you know, I mean,

389
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:06.440
I think it's fifteen minutes of kind
of like Simon Oakland in Psycho where they

390
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:11.480
realized they had to Sherlock Holmes this. Yes, yes, well they had

391
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:15.359
John Gilgood for one day, damn
it. And we are going to film

392
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:21.480
John Gilgood all freaking days, see
David, That's where he Sherlock Holmes the

393
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:23.359
hell out of that though, like
he just saved it all until the very

394
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:26.799
very end. But by the same
token, it's like, Okay, the

395
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:33.799
British government is sanctioning the murder of
women and children and I'm going to give

396
00:30:33.880 --> 00:30:37.240
you guys a jolly good talking to
and then I am going to keep it

397
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:41.960
a secret because we don't want to
make any ways. It's like, that's

398
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:45.240
weak, that's weak. Yeah,
I think they had Gilgood for a day.

399
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.559
They ran with it. If anything, I think this movie really would

400
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.839
have benefited from having microft in here
and having this whole thing of like,

401
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:57.200
hey, brother man, you really
need to keep the lid on this.

402
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:00.440
And yeah, it goes all the
way up to the animals of power and

403
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:04.839
all this, but you really need
to you know, my job's in jeopardy.

404
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:08.480
The whole British government's in jeopardy.
You really need to put the lid

405
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.720
on this. I'm surprised they didn't
go that route. And by his even

406
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:18.480
his own admission, he's not he's
not saying Eddie was involved in the murders.

407
00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:23.640
Per se. It was some devoted
meets of his and that they're just

408
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.279
basically covering it up. I mean, I could see that happen in pretty

409
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:32.319
much every government, so I don't
think it's it's too far fetched, especially

410
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.319
you know these days it's Jack the
Ripper and then it's like, oh,

411
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.599
it's two guys. That's not just
one guy. It's like a kind of

412
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:44.200
tag team effort. Because that is
the conspiracy driven by the Freemasons that are

413
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:48.440
trying to protect the monarchy from scandal
and the potential that there's a Catholic child

414
00:31:49.119 --> 00:31:53.640
that has been fathered by Prince Eddie, who, to clarify, Prince Edward,

415
00:31:55.039 --> 00:32:00.559
the Duke of Clarence, was the
grandson of Queen Victoria, and so

416
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:04.240
his father, who became Edward and
seventh he was in direct line for the

417
00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:08.680
throne, and so it would have
been a huge deal if Eddie had fathered

418
00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:14.960
a child out of wedlock with the
a prostitute. And then yeah, the

419
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.799
whole Catholic thing too, I guess
that's because of the Engludican Church that they're

420
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:23.440
all members of, and so just
even the religion or I mean, I'm

421
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:29.480
so whatever about religion. I mean, okay, the kid was baptized Catholic.

422
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:32.319
One just re baptized. But I
guess it doesn't work. I don't

423
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:37.960
know. You can't do that,
Okay, you you are so going to

424
00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:46.200
hell boy, just by even thinking
it. Really listens, My grandfather got

425
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:52.119
my grandmother regnant and then they had
to get married. This is in Scotland,

426
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:55.240
and he was Protestant and she was
Catholic and they had to get married

427
00:32:55.319 --> 00:32:59.759
so that they could have my mom, and her family stopped speaking to her.

428
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.920
You can look at things in retrospect
and say that's insane, but when

429
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:09.079
people get self righteous, they get
rationality goes right out the window. Well,

430
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:14.680
and I forget about things like the
troubles over in Ireland and that being

431
00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:19.400
Catholic and Protestant were super big deals
for a long day time, and so

432
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.839
many people lost their lives. Well
they had, you know, Elizabeth the

433
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.519
First and Mary, Queen of Scots, and the whole issue of was England

434
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.119
going to be a Catholic or a
Protestant country was a point of contention for

435
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:37.480
a long long time. I totally
can understand that, No you can't,

436
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:43.720
but you're just saying it's not right
no matter what The movie itself. I

437
00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:46.240
think it's a very wonderfully shot.
I think a lot of this works.

438
00:33:46.359 --> 00:33:51.359
And we're talking before as far as
the relationships go, I think that the

439
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.200
relationship between Holmes and Watson is really
the reason why I come back to this

440
00:33:55.240 --> 00:34:00.200
movie time and again just to see, well, it's Holmes and Watson,

441
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:07.079
but moreover it's Plumber and Mason,
and just to watch how these guys act

442
00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:12.639
around each other. And even that
funny pe scene. And that's pea by

443
00:34:12.679 --> 00:34:15.400
the way, ladies and gentlemen,
if you haven't seen this movie, there's

444
00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:20.519
no golden showers in this It is
a p on. That's the director's cut.

445
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.920
I love that. I love the
p scene. It's a very it's

446
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.920
a very charming scene. And yeah, I agree they work. They work

447
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:30.960
really well together. It's part of
the you know, the humanized homes that

448
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:36.119
you see homes laughing it up with
Watson, I mean sometimes kind of inappropriately,

449
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.800
you know, near the end when
they discover the eviscerated Mary Kelly.

450
00:34:39.880 --> 00:34:43.400
You know, Holmes and Watson have
a bit of a smile. You know,

451
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:45.039
here have my gun, old man, you might need it, and

452
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:50.119
it's like, why man, you
guys know what's happened like five feet behind

453
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.400
you. It's in the frame.
So I found that a little little disturbing.

454
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:58.880
I've got some friends where I could
see us being that ridiculous in those

455
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:01.880
moments. It's just like moment of
lightness. It's almost like the back of

456
00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:07.280
the world disappears and the horror and
they're just trying to find motivation to continue

457
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.039
on. You know, maybe I'm
overthinking it, maybe just because I like

458
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:15.239
I like those two away. Everybody
in this cast is fantastic. I was

459
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:20.480
very surprised. I also forget that
David Hemmings is in this, and his

460
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:23.559
role is interesting because he one he's
basically there to be a red herring,

461
00:35:24.039 --> 00:35:30.280
and two he's there to be part
of the mystery as well. And he

462
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:37.239
and those shopkeepers allegedly like they are
all in cahoots and they are all these

463
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:40.039
revolutionaries I want to do away with
the monarchy. Holmes is kind of a

464
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:44.199
dupe for these guys as well.
It takes a long durn time before he

465
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:49.280
figures out that Hemmings is working with
those guys, but he's great to see

466
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:51.639
on screen, and every time he
shows up and just like, oh,

467
00:35:51.679 --> 00:35:54.599
okay, cool, this is pretty
good. Because he basically is he's a

468
00:35:54.679 --> 00:36:01.079
superfluous character of quite often he's basically
just another version of Lestrade, but more

469
00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:06.039
of playing clothes men. I suppose, but Lestrade in here. I really

470
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:09.320
liked him in this movie. But
in Lestrade is I mean, I don't

471
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:15.320
think we've seen other than that one
of the deleted scenes from the Private Lives

472
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:21.079
of Sherlock Holmes. I don't think
we've seen the Strade this entire month until

473
00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.679
this episode. No, but I
mean, weirdly enough, the guy that

474
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:30.400
plays Lestrade, Frank Finley. He
plays Lestrade in the study in Terror as

475
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.880
well, which is the nineteen sixty
five version of Sherlock Holmes versus Jack the

476
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.480
Ripper. Well, and the guy
that plays Sir is a Sir Charles.

477
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:42.920
I think he's also in that movie. A yes, yeah, yeah,

478
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.719
yeah, yes, he and his
facial hair are treasures. I love it.

479
00:36:47.440 --> 00:36:51.239
I love it. Yeah, they're
worth the price of admission. I

480
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.039
should mention. I don't know if
you guys know, but John Gielgood was

481
00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:58.800
He did play Sherlock Holmes on radio
in the BBC, and then I might

482
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:01.480
say nineteen fifty four he was Holmes
and Sir Ralph Richardson was his Watson.

483
00:37:02.119 --> 00:37:07.239
When I was listening to the stories
that the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes's smarter brother

484
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:13.239
were based on Gielgood. It was
redio versions of at least two of those,

485
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.960
so that was kind of nice to
hear. So those are available either

486
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:20.960
for free or for pretty there and
cheap over on Audible, So yeah,

487
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:22.960
definitely check it out. It's like
we talked about, if you're a British

488
00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.159
actor, you have to have played
Sherlock Holmes or Watson at some point.

489
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:30.920
I will mention one thing that I
realized why I was watching this one again

490
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.039
that it jars me a little bit. Like every film that we've talked about,

491
00:37:35.079 --> 00:37:38.239
Sherlock Holmes is running around and his
deer stalker and his Inverness cape,

492
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:44.719
which he would never do in London. Never. That's for when you're out

493
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:46.920
in the countryside. And that was
one of the things I liked best about

494
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:51.800
the Jeremy Brett series is when he's
in London, he dresses like a gentleman

495
00:37:52.119 --> 00:37:53.639
and it's only he puts on,
you know, the deer stalker when he

496
00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:58.320
goes to Dartmoor for The Hound of
the Baskervilles. But every Holmes that we've

497
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:02.280
seen. He's charging about Holmes and
this kind of as actually Robert Stephens says

498
00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:07.320
in the Private Life, this improbable
costume that Watson has foisted upon him.

499
00:38:07.400 --> 00:38:12.599
So Hollywood wants to They love that. Look, that's the Sherlock Holmes.

500
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:15.559
Look, that's a silhouette. That's
it's almost like you know the Hitchcock silhouette.

501
00:38:15.599 --> 00:38:19.239
You just you know it when you
see it. Well, even before

502
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.719
we see Christopher Plumber, we see
the pipe, and it's the pipe that

503
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:27.800
leads us up to Christopher Plumber's face. So again he's kind of this symbol.

504
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.079
You know, we talked about how
the pipe in a smarter brother like

505
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:35.079
sometimes you didn't even see the actor, you just saw the pipe. It's

506
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:37.400
like you could have gotten anybody then
even just hold that pipe a little bit

507
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:44.000
off screen and there you have Sherlock
Holmes looking over things. I always find

508
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:46.440
that's to me, one of the
most interesting things about any incarnation of Holmes

509
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:50.880
is how did they first present him? When you first see him, Like

510
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:55.480
in the Basil Rathmone, how to
the Basketball's you just see his torso pacing

511
00:38:55.599 --> 00:39:00.159
back and forth, and you see
Watson sitting down and you know it's Sherlock

512
00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:01.639
Holmes, but all you see is
in pacing back and forth. And then

513
00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:07.960
they cut to Rathbone in profile,
and he had that, as somebody once

514
00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:12.000
described it, two profiles pasted together. Look, I mean, he had

515
00:39:12.039 --> 00:39:15.559
a great silhouette to him, and
I always find that interesting. How are

516
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:19.840
we going to first show this iconic
hero for his first appearance in this particular

517
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.119
film. I wanted to go back
to something you were talking about earlier eron

518
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:28.199
as far as the fictionality of Jack
the Ripper. This is going to sound

519
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:30.119
like a weird analogy, but Jack
the Ripper kind of reminds me of Santa

520
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:34.679
Claus. Sometimes you get those like
Santa Clauses coming to town where it's like,

521
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:37.039
Okay, here's how he got the
hat, here's how he got the

522
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:42.400
laugh, here's why he's named Chris
Kringle, and Jack the Ripper is very

523
00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.400
similar in that. Okay, we
know that this was the order of victims.

524
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:50.719
We know these and like every because
by now by the time we're recording

525
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:58.840
this, I've listened to Dustin Shadow, I've looked at the last Sherlock Holmes

526
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:04.400
story. I believe it's called Watched
Study and terror watch this one several times

527
00:40:04.760 --> 00:40:07.199
and then also watch from Hell.
So right now, it's like, okay,

528
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:13.440
it's just the same pieces being moved
around slightly. Like I said,

529
00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.760
it's interesting that he starts after the
third murder already takes place in this one,

530
00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:22.039
so we don't have to have all
five of the murders being shown,

531
00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.480
you know, And you've got like, all right, well, Mary Kelly

532
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:30.360
as the ALUs the final victim,
and she's done worse than anybody else is.

533
00:40:30.679 --> 00:40:35.159
And it's just all of these different
trappings that you have, and then

534
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.400
you get the whole thing of the
note the Jews are the ones who will

535
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:45.599
not be blatant whatever that whole thing
and or Jews ju Wes. That's a

536
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:47.119
real clue. I mean, that's
a real jector. If it's a real

537
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:51.320
thing, it's a real thing.
So that it's just like, Okay,

538
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:54.639
we've got all these pieces on our
chessboard here, how do we rearrange them

539
00:40:54.960 --> 00:41:00.679
in order to weave Sherlock Holmes in
there? Or Johnny Depp as a detective,

540
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:06.320
like, how do we now explain
these things in this particular way?

541
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:12.320
And sometimes that arrow of clues can
lead to Prince Edward. Sometimes it goes

542
00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:15.960
over here to anonymous doctor over here. You know, my favorite one is

543
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:20.639
kind of goes back to private life
of Sherlock Holmes. The whole idea that

544
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:25.159
it's actually the Lockdesk monster is the
one that is Jack the Ripper? Is

545
00:41:25.159 --> 00:41:29.800
this the way it happened? It
was Jack the Ripper in fact, a

546
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:36.000
sixty foot sea serpent from Scotland.
Did I take this job for a christ

547
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:39.519
Block? We may never know the
answer to these questions. Where do these

548
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:44.840
clues lead to all the way up
to lock Nest? Possibly so, but

549
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:50.920
these it's it's very fascinating to see
how they wind Sherlock Holmes in amongst these

550
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:55.800
clues and then also make him a
very humanistic character. You know, that's

551
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.079
kind of a little bit of the
bone of contention with this up. So

552
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:05.039
it is just Holmes as a humanist, Holmes as more of the traditional story.

553
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:07.440
How does that work out? Because
you know, I was listening to

554
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:12.079
one of the audio commentaries and somebody
said, oh, Holmes cries through like

555
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.719
a third of this movie, and
I'm like, it seems a little much,

556
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:21.280
but he definitely does ships and tears, especially in the uh Genevieve Boujeold

557
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.679
scene where she just again great cast. She just kind of comes in and

558
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:30.239
steals the show for probably about five
to ten minutes. She wasn't she captivating

559
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:32.679
unless she was absolutely captivating. Yeah, she was great, and she fit

560
00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:38.559
in with the whole we're gonna cast
Canadians and English people. That's it,

561
00:42:38.679 --> 00:42:42.599
that's our cast. He got me
one of those, so she fit in

562
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.039
really well. And I think I
think I believe I've read some place she

563
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:47.920
cut her own hair for for this
film, and she's, yeah, well

564
00:42:47.960 --> 00:42:52.639
she's just fabulous. She's just off
the off the charts fabulous. Then it

565
00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:57.840
made me go and look up her
original scenes and Voyager and watch those.

566
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:04.039
And then hear Kate Melbo through just
talking so much trash about how bouge Old

567
00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:07.440
pronounced things. I'm like, wow, you're kind of a see you next

568
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:12.440
Tuesday lady, I mean a big
fan of you anymore. Kate melgrew So

569
00:43:13.519 --> 00:43:16.280
it's a good turn. Boujeold would
have made a good Janeway is all I'm

570
00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:21.599
saying, because she can definitely act, and this was another great time for

571
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.719
Genevie Boujeold. I grew up with
Genevie bougeold in movies and to see your

572
00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:30.199
back in this and again freaking Donald
Sutherland, you know, small part,

573
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:36.519
but very powerful and great, you
know, to your point, David another

574
00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:43.079
great Canadian actor and the seventies man
like to me, Gould and Sutherland just

575
00:43:43.239 --> 00:43:50.280
own the seventies and these two kind
of odd looking characters that just were in

576
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.079
all of these different films. Though
with this one, every time I saw

577
00:43:53.639 --> 00:43:57.960
Donald Sutherland in this Victorian garb,
I was just like, I mean,

578
00:43:58.039 --> 00:44:00.440
it looks like he's about to go
on a great train robbery, because he

579
00:44:00.599 --> 00:44:04.280
was so great in that movie.
And I think that was just the year

580
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.400
prior. It's like he was starting
to corner the I can be a weirdo

581
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:13.239
Victorian person. Susan Clark was great
too. I really thought the acting across

582
00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.440
the board was it was just phenomenal, or at least it looked very strong,

583
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:22.440
very strong. Anybody who's been married
to Alex Carris is okay. In

584
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:29.280
my book Obscured Detroit lyons anecdote there
big timeline. Well for me, he'll

585
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:35.000
he'll always be Mango more at first
than always in my heart. Mongo only

586
00:44:35.199 --> 00:44:39.239
pun in Game of life, but
a great football player too. Yeah,

587
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:45.480
so with that Jewess clue, I
think that's really what puts this into the

588
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:50.519
whole idea of the Masons in this. So it's interesting because it's it's Mason's

589
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:55.920
covering up the crime, but then
you still have Prince Edward at the heart

590
00:44:55.920 --> 00:45:00.840
of it, and it's really from
how is various much to that? But

591
00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:06.480
I have heard the Prince Edward thing
before, but I didn't necessarily associate with

592
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:10.199
the Mason's kind of protecting him.
So this was, you know, in

593
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:16.400
these two unquote misguided guys that are
murdering all of the people that knew about

594
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:21.960
the wedding and looking for this child. It makes more an interesting story.

595
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:25.559
Hasn't been discredited? Yeah do I
care now? Not really? I mean

596
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:30.559
the Masons to me, and hopefully
we'll hear from Mason later on in the

597
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:35.760
show. The Mason's arrows kind of
a little bit mythological as well, because

598
00:45:36.119 --> 00:45:40.400
they're so secretive, so you can
attribute anything to Mason's I suppose. Yeah.

599
00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.920
I don't think they ever had anything
to do with this, but for

600
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.880
a long time they were attributed just
because of that one clue. Just that's

601
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.880
the big conspiracy theory because of that
one clue, and I'm like, couldn't

602
00:45:50.920 --> 00:45:52.920
that have been Jack the Ripper throwing
that clue in there? Just a three

603
00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:58.800
year office trail. I'm just saying, well, they're they're reminiscent to me,

604
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.440
and no offense to all the Freemasons
out there, but it's it's like

605
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:07.400
the Ku Klux Klan and the Grand
Wizard and secret handshakes. It's it's stuffed.

606
00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:14.400
Most people abandoned once they turned twelve. It's just stilliness. It's just

607
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:17.360
stilliness. But for a lot of
people, you know the trappings of it,

608
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:22.320
it's very weird and mysterious and exciting, exotic. There's oftentimes kind of

609
00:46:22.800 --> 00:46:28.519
sexual nuances associated with it, and
it makes good fiction. But in real

610
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:32.880
life, having a secret ring and
a secret handshake and you know I'm the

611
00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:37.440
Prime Minister, I mean, come
on, that's just it's it's sad.

612
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:40.199
Yeah, it's said, these are
supposed to be grown men. And although

613
00:46:40.320 --> 00:46:43.320
you know, I was in Big
Boy a couple of weeks ago when the

614
00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.239
guy in front of me in line
to pay was filling me in on the

615
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:50.440
international banking conspiracy led by the Rothschilds, just out of the blue. I

616
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:54.639
don't even know this guy, and
he's wand impart the secret New World Order

617
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:59.280
that was taking place beneath my very
notes. So I think his brother actually

618
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.719
drives cat in Vegas because I got
the same speech. Well, for the

619
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:07.440
record, God bless the rothschilds.
Yes, this play is really big and

620
00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:14.480
the Rothschild sector. So I actually
have all my Facebook ads targeted just to

621
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:16.320
that. There's a special checkbox,
but you have to know the secret to

622
00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:20.559
get in. They're gonna be pointing
at their laptops. They're talking about us.

623
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:23.519
They're talking. It's they're talking about
us. Did you feel like Sherlock

624
00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:30.159
Holmes was secretly a Freemason or just
knew the secrets of their handshake and their

625
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:36.559
ring. He just knew he's not
going to join any little boys club.

626
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:38.159
He's an adult. Anyway, that's
my take. I don't know. I'm

627
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.239
like, what do you think?
Well, it's my take too, But

628
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:45.840
my take was that he just knew
it, not that he was a Mason.

629
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:47.679
And to your point, David,
I think he already laughs at his

630
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:52.599
brother for being in the dietch and
his club and all those silly rules that

631
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:57.280
they have. So I can see
him not wanting to join in any sort

632
00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.760
of society, especially to be beholden
to somebody else that doesn't feel like other

633
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:06.119
than Watson and missus Hudson. It
feels like he wants nothing to do with

634
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:09.480
any person in the world. People
love that stuff, whether it's the Illuminati

635
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:14.400
or what is it called the Skull
and Bones Club at Yale, the stone

636
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:20.480
Cutters. I guess it's important to
a certain kind of mentality, which apparently

637
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:23.280
I do not possess me either.
Well, and you even get into things

638
00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:28.880
that are more open, but also
these clubs like Elks and these guys where

639
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:32.239
they usually do good things for the
neighborhood, those kind of things. But

640
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:37.360
it's more than anything, it's an
excuse to hang around with guys your age

641
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:42.639
and park cards and drink. Yeah, exactly, it's all about drinking.

642
00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:45.599
All comes back to that. Well, like the Great Groucho Mark said,

643
00:48:45.599 --> 00:48:49.119
I would never want to belong to
a club that would have someone like me

644
00:48:49.159 --> 00:48:52.760
as a member. I honestly thought
I was exaggerating, But then when I

645
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:58.400
was listening to the Bob Clark commentary, I was like, Oh, the

646
00:48:58.440 --> 00:49:01.719
final scene is starting. I need
to watch what time it is. It

647
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:07.719
literally takes fifteen minutes, this whole
thing of what is it four people in

648
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:12.440
one room and shooting that, And
I had to say, brob Rura,

649
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:16.320
Bob Clark does his best to make
this interesting, but I just feel like

650
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:22.320
it goes on for too long.
Listening to these books and watching these movies.

651
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.440
She like Holmes can come into a
room and say, oh, how

652
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:30.079
was your time in Dorchester? What
was your wife doing? Blah blah blah

653
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:36.320
you and just like give all of
these things about somebody, and then inevitably

654
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:40.079
they or doctor Watson will have to
say, how did you know that?

655
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:44.559
And then it gives the whole thing, well, you know, the dander

656
00:49:44.559 --> 00:49:50.800
around his coat and the dirt at
the bottom of his hem and he'll just

657
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:54.639
give this whole thing and explain away
everything. That's an interesting thing. And

658
00:49:54.760 --> 00:50:00.519
I like that, but the explanations
like this where he's just going through point

659
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:05.320
by point I did like to the
Clerk used alternate takes. Most of the

660
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:07.039
time. It wasn't the same things
that we saw, so we got a

661
00:50:07.159 --> 00:50:13.280
slightly different perspective, but still just
for him to sum up this movie,

662
00:50:13.679 --> 00:50:19.920
and Jacques over to the Prime Minister
and they really get into the masonry stuff

663
00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:22.480
and it just it was a little
bit long in the tooth for me,

664
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:25.840
especially the second time I watched this
this week, I was like, oh

665
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:30.800
my god, can I fast forward
through this? Sure? Could? Yeah,

666
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.440
it's my house, I can do
what I wanted. I thought,

667
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:39.199
same as you. It felt protracted, and you know, it's it's not

668
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:45.440
as you said, It's not simply
a case of strlock Holmes explaining his deductive

669
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:51.519
process. He's basically spends fifteen minutes
chastising and shaking his finger. You naughty

670
00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:53.679
boys. You shouldn't be doing this, but I'm not going to tell anybody,

671
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:58.360
And you know, the power of
it is considerably diminished. I mean

672
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:01.280
it's supposed to be again, part
of the humanized homes. He's emotional,

673
00:51:01.559 --> 00:51:06.760
he's getting, you know, weepy
eyed thinking about what these horrible, powerful

674
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:08.719
men are doing. But in the
end he doesn't. Actually, all he

675
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:15.079
wants to do is extract the promise
from them that the bastard child, the

676
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.199
little girl, will not be harmed. And if he has that guarantee,

677
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:23.320
he'll keep mom about the whole sordid
affair. And that's what that scene resolves

678
00:51:23.360 --> 00:51:28.760
itself down too. I do think
it's the most Sherlock Holmes that Sherlock Holmes

679
00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.960
has ever Holmes. It's very much
a hey, I'm gonna tell you everything

680
00:51:34.000 --> 00:51:37.639
I learned in this entire movie right
here. Welcome to your exposition. And

681
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:39.800
I do think it goes on a
little bit too long. I do like

682
00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:46.800
the scene overall. I feel like
it's the culmination of the growing humanistic qualities

683
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:51.639
we've seen in homes throughout this film. You've got Sherlock Holmes at the end

684
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:59.840
of his career kind of in many
respects. So he absolutely formed some kind

685
00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:05.400
of an emotional bond with her at
the sanitarium, and now you know,

686
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.280
and he lost Mary and now it's
come to this, So it's this just

687
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:15.360
outward explosion of emotion. I think
Christopher Plummer delivers it masterfully. In my

688
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:21.320
opinion. I feel like he captivates
the screen in this scene. Even though

689
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:23.599
it does go on too long.
It is a little bit too expedition heavy,

690
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.559
but I still enjoy it, and
I really enjoy his performance, Like

691
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:32.239
I thought his performance was captivating personally. One thing that kind of struck me

692
00:52:32.400 --> 00:52:37.639
is the whole notion of Genevieve Boujolt's
character. He gets all worked up he

693
00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:40.280
has a bit of a cry,
he attacks the doctor, and then he's

694
00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:45.920
subsequently told, oh, well,
you know, she committed suicide next day,

695
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:49.960
and there's no question from him.
I mean, it's like, you

696
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:52.960
know, Jeffrey Epstein, Oh he
just died this cell, yep, that

697
00:52:52.079 --> 00:52:57.559
those things happen. He's not gonna, you know, suggest at all that.

698
00:52:57.679 --> 00:52:59.800
Maybe. No, he makes a
reference to it in that scene,

699
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:01.880
remember what the wording was, But
he does make a reference to I'm supposed

700
00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:05.800
to take your word or I'm supposed
to take you it. I don't remember

701
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.400
how I said it. I really
don't, but I'm fairly certain does I

702
00:53:08.440 --> 00:53:10.840
could be wrong. I could be
wrong. It happens. Yeah, I

703
00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:15.360
thought he just kind of swallowed that
that particular story hole, or maybe you

704
00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:17.320
know, pragmatically, it's like,
well, that's not, at this point

705
00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:21.880
in the film a direction that we
want to go in and open up that

706
00:53:21.960 --> 00:53:23.760
can of worms. So, I
mean, she was right there teetering on

707
00:53:23.880 --> 00:53:28.960
suicide, so it wouldn't probably surprised
him either. Yeah, that's true.

708
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:30.079
All right, let's go ahead.
We're going to take a break, and

709
00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:34.559
we'll return with a pair of interviews. For a step, we'll hear from

710
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:38.320
Brent Morris, the author of The
Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry. And after

711
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:43.400
that we'll hear from Mary Keller yourself
Susan Clark, and we'll be back with

712
00:53:43.400 --> 00:53:54.559
both of those right after these brief
messages. Hello everyone, this is Malcolm

713
00:53:54.599 --> 00:54:00.559
McDowell. I just want to say
that this is a request to listeners of

714
00:54:00.719 --> 00:54:08.639
the Projection Booth podcast to become patrons
of the show via patrion dot com,

715
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:17.199
pat e o n dot com slash
Projection Booth. That's pretty simple. I

716
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:22.440
think you can do that. It's
a great show and Mike he provides hours

717
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:28.280
of great entertainment. So now it's
time to give back my little drugs.

718
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:32.119
Settle down and take a listen and
have a sip of the old molocco,

719
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:37.039
and then you'll be ready for a
little of the old in out, in

720
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:45.199
out real horror show. Bye bye, mister Morris. When was the first

721
00:54:45.239 --> 00:54:51.239
time you even heard about freemasonry?
My grandfather was a Freemason and I knew

722
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:55.360
that he wore a Masonic rate.
That was about all I knew about freemasonry

723
00:54:55.400 --> 00:55:01.119
at that time. So term where
I was in lace school, I'm sixteen,

724
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:06.679
seventeen years old, I'm talking.
I was a member of the local

725
00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:09.880
Magic Club, this chapter of the
Society of American Magicians, and I was

726
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:15.639
talking to one of the older members
and I had seen an ad in the

727
00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:21.079
back of Popular Science magazine, and
at that time they used to have hundreds

728
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:24.800
of these little bitty ads. One
of the ads to caught my attention is

729
00:55:24.920 --> 00:55:30.679
all the secrets of the thirty three
degrees of Freemasonry for a dollar ninety nine.

730
00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:32.239
You know. I said to my
friend, what do you know about

731
00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:37.000
the Masons. Well, I was
in DeMolay, which is a boys group

732
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:39.639
that sponsored by the Masons. He
said, but I'm not a Mason myself,

733
00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:44.320
and we started speculating outcome. They're
selling all the degrees at once,

734
00:55:44.719 --> 00:55:49.400
why didn't they sell them for ten
sons apiece or whatever. Then when I

735
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:54.159
was in college, the same type
of conversation happened with one of my fraternity

736
00:55:54.199 --> 00:55:59.880
brothers. His uncle was a Mason, and when you're in a dormitory for

737
00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:06.719
churnity house setting, talk about anything
and in the conversation just bounces around wildly

738
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.480
from one topic to another. And
he and I had passing interest in freemason

739
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:15.440
I was just curious, what are
the Secrets of the Lace, and his

740
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:19.239
uncle was a Mason. We were
both at Southern Methodist University. So I

741
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:23.039
went to the SMU library and I
checked out the books that they happened to

742
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:28.239
have a freemas drag, and I
just started reading them. We continued the

743
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:32.599
discussion, and in January of our
senior year, we both came back from

744
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.800
Christmas break and he says, Prent, you know what I'm gonna do.

745
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:39.280
I just turned twenty one. I
want to join my Elson's Masonic munch.

746
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:44.000
But we've been talking about this for
a semester or two or whatever. And

747
00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:46.280
I thought for half a second and
I said, huh, if you will

748
00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:50.440
wait till rch, I will turn
twenty one and I'll join with you.

749
00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:53.559
He said, deal. So we
both put in our petitions. On my

750
00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:59.880
birthday, March twenty eight, we
were both elected members and our initiation was

751
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:06.480
I think June twenty something like that, and I became a Mason, was

752
00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:12.039
made a Master Mason. On Monday
Friday, I packed van and drove to

753
00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:15.519
during North Carolina to start grad school
to Duke University. Duke kappen to have

754
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:22.480
a very large collection of books and
freemasonry. I had just joined, so

755
00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:25.360
I had dozens of questions. So
I would check out as a stack of

756
00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:30.239
books, take it home and read
it over the weekend, and check out

757
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:34.840
another stack of books. And I
just found that it appealed to me.

758
00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:40.559
It clipped. I enjoyed the people
I met, I enjoyed the symbolism of

759
00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:44.719
the ritual. And Boy Scouts does
not appeal to me. I remember that

760
00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:49.079
I did in the Cup Scouts and
they wanted us to move up Boy Scouts

761
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:52.159
and I went on a camping trip
with them, and I thought to myself,

762
00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:57.800
I don't like this camping. It's
warumpy and it's cold. And then

763
00:57:57.800 --> 00:58:00.480
they were going to teach us how
to do more code and I had a

764
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:04.480
hard time doing that, and I
said, this is the type of activities

765
00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.199
they do, play with Morris Covid
and sleep on the hard ground in the

766
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:10.360
cold weather. This ain't for me. So so boy Scouts didn't lick.

767
00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:15.800
Freemasons did go figure, So what
kind of activities do the Freemasons do?

768
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:21.280
What appeal to you about them?
I think what I like the most were

769
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:23.679
the people that I met. Well. I was in grad school. I

770
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:30.880
was caught up in a ghetto of
mathematicians with a few theoretical physicists hanging around,

771
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:35.239
and those are the only people I
saw. When I was at a

772
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:42.559
Masonic lodge meeting. I saw there
was an optometrist who was my optometrist,

773
00:58:42.679 --> 00:58:45.199
and so he was a member of
the lodge. The lieutenant sheriff and town

774
00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.920
was a member, The fire chief
was a member. Small shop owner that

775
00:58:50.000 --> 00:58:53.559
I became buddies was a members.
So I met all different kinds of people.

776
00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:59.519
In fact, I post something posted
something over my Facebook page and I

777
00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:04.840
said, instead of this a theoretical
physicist, a medic, a research mathematician,

778
00:59:04.880 --> 00:59:07.559
and I'm a medieval scholar in a
lot and walk into a book.

779
00:59:07.840 --> 00:59:10.679
That's it. Lodge meeting was over. We wanted to finish our conversation and

780
00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:15.280
share a pint before we blow.
I find that kind to cool that I

781
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:20.440
can show up in a meeting and
there is a research mathematician by training.

782
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:23.760
There, there's a nuclear physicist who
have to be working on his master's degree

783
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:30.840
in a theology talk about a change. There was a scholar of medieval Latin,

784
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:34.599
and we were not talking about any
of our academic special meetings. I

785
00:59:34.639 --> 00:59:37.519
don't even remember what the topic was
but let's go across the street get a

786
00:59:37.519 --> 00:59:43.800
pipe before go home. So I
enjoyed the people we meet. I enjoy

787
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:49.840
the intellectual background. I suspect that
I went to a rotary meeting or a

788
00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:53.000
Learning's club meeting and a member of
neither. So I'm just speculating here,

789
00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:58.880
But I doubt if people would be
talking about what the Routarians, I know,

790
00:59:58.920 --> 01:00:01.480
they would be talking about the Routarians
we're doing three hundred years. They

791
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:07.199
would not be talking about what the
Lions Club did in the community three hundred

792
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:10.239
years ago, or how they could
have an influence on the officials in the

793
01:00:10.280 --> 01:00:15.079
government and so on, and anyway, that's guess. The thing that appealed

794
01:00:15.079 --> 01:00:19.920
to me was the depth of the
history and the broad range of people that

795
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:22.920
I met. How did the Masons
even start, Now that's a good question.

796
01:00:23.360 --> 01:00:27.840
It's a little fuzzy, and I
can tell you what we know about

797
01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:34.599
the concept of a guild originated in
France about twelve hundred. Norman conquest is

798
01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:39.760
ten sixty, So some time after
twelve hundred, the invading Norman's brought over

799
01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:45.440
the concept of a guild the workers. It's a trade union, an apprenticeship

800
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:52.119
program. Then you have membership and
there is this quid pro quel the crown

801
01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:57.800
or the owners, whatever the business
is, promise of fair wage and in

802
01:00:57.960 --> 01:01:02.599
return with the guild guarantee he's equality
a certain quality. So the earliest document

803
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:07.480
we have on the Mason's Guild is
about thirteen running, so the Masons are

804
01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:14.199
abandoned. In fact, it's interesting
if you look at the laws. The

805
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:17.880
King made it illegal for Masons to
assemble together in a group because they were

806
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:22.639
negotiating wage and the King didn't like
that, didn't like that at all.

807
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:30.760
So you have this idea of build
developing and then somewhere around sixteen hundred and

808
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:37.239
Scotland appears they had a practical problem
to solve. And here's the problem.

809
01:01:37.360 --> 01:01:39.039
If you're going to have a trade
union and you want it to be a

810
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:45.280
closed shop, so you can't just
walk up and start growing master's wages unless

811
01:01:45.320 --> 01:01:50.599
you have been through the apprenticeship and
so on. If you want to maintain

812
01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:53.840
that, and you want to give
your members the ability to travel. So

813
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:58.800
they finished the bridge in Aberdeen and
they hear they're starting a new church in

814
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.079
Glasgow. We're going to travel and
get some work, and that was one

815
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:08.280
thing that made Masons differed from other
gills, is you could be a baker,

816
01:02:08.440 --> 01:02:12.960
a miller, a brewer and spend
your entire life in one village and

817
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.400
never leave. If you were a
Freemason, when you finished the extension to

818
01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:21.239
the town hall, when you prepare
the bridge, when your job was finished,

819
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:23.800
there might not be mason work in
town for ten or twenty years,

820
01:02:24.440 --> 01:02:29.119
so you add to move. Now. When you go to the altered English

821
01:02:29.119 --> 01:02:34.480
Dictionary and it looks at the definition
of Freemason, it says they're two origins.

822
01:02:34.559 --> 01:02:38.480
Are two possible origins. One is
these were the skilled stone curbs that

823
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:44.480
worked in something called freestone, and
freestone didn't have a grain to it,

824
01:02:44.559 --> 01:02:49.599
so you could easily curve it in
any shape or direction. The other possible

825
01:02:49.639 --> 01:02:54.239
explanation is that the Freemasons were free
to travel, unlike the other occupations.

826
01:02:54.480 --> 01:03:00.719
So about sixteen hundred, because they
were free to and they wanted to be

827
01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:05.239
able to prove their membership, they
invented the Mason word. Now, the

828
01:03:05.280 --> 01:03:08.960
first written evidence we have of the
Mason word is sixteen thirty seven and a

829
01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:13.239
guy writes in his diary and I
know this is going to be a heart

830
01:03:13.280 --> 01:03:17.639
to believe but the Scots Nobles were
having conflict with the English King, Scots

831
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:23.000
in English getting into dispute. They
didn't think the Irish would be involved also,

832
01:03:23.480 --> 01:03:28.800
So in this first reference, a
guy's trying to play both sides of

833
01:03:28.840 --> 01:03:31.119
the fence, trying to be loyal
to the king, trying to make nice

834
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:36.880
with the Scots nobles. One of
the Scots Nobles accuses term of having the

835
01:03:36.880 --> 01:03:40.159
Mason word that he just said,
okay, thank you, I'm all through.

836
01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:44.639
And the reason for that is the
king at this time was James,

837
01:03:44.679 --> 01:03:49.159
the first of England, who is
responsible for the King James Bible. He

838
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.719
was also a fanatic against witches.
All of the witch trials that we had

839
01:03:52.760 --> 01:03:57.360
in New England, all of the
hundreds of witches burned at the stake in

840
01:03:57.440 --> 01:04:02.480
England and Scotland were due to King
James. This obsession and the Mason's word

841
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:09.519
secretly identify other Masons, and according
to written a legend, it let you

842
01:04:09.599 --> 01:04:13.239
secretly summon a Mason to do your
bidding. There are two ways you could

843
01:04:13.239 --> 01:04:15.840
do that. I could know the
secret side. Hey, Mike, you

844
01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:19.239
know what you do with this afternoon? And you say, oh, would

845
01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:25.119
you like me to come help you
with something, you got it. The

846
01:04:25.239 --> 01:04:28.840
other explanation is that I was in
league with the devil when I was sending

847
01:04:28.880 --> 01:04:31.920
little demons over to whispering your ear. And that's what James anyway, the

848
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:35.800
whole reason I go into that detail. That is the first mention of the

849
01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:42.119
Mason words sixteen thirty seven. And
there are two things that are significant about

850
01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:45.760
the first. One that's significant is
it's scary to be accused of having the

851
01:04:45.840 --> 01:04:50.480
mason work. The second thing,
the guy that writes this down doesn't have

852
01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:55.559
to explain what the Mason word is. He just says, Sir Mike was

853
01:04:55.599 --> 01:04:59.000
accused of adding the Mason word,
and he dropped out of activity in any

854
01:04:59.199 --> 01:05:03.639
further negotiations. That's a very subtle
thing. But to think about it,

855
01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:09.159
he didn't have to tell anybody what
he was talking about. They already knew.

856
01:05:09.559 --> 01:05:14.920
And what this reminds me of.
There's another reference to the Mason word.

857
01:05:14.960 --> 01:05:18.639
They're about fifteen or twenty references prior
to seventeen thirty and about the first

858
01:05:18.639 --> 01:05:24.360
century sixteen thirty seven, the first
recorded non instance to about seventeen thirty.

859
01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:28.440
They're only about a dozen or twenty
references. One of them is a sermon

860
01:05:28.639 --> 01:05:31.519
given by a Reverend William Guthrie at
his church in Scotland, and his sermons

861
01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:36.760
are all recorded a big book and
they're in the University of Edinburgh a library,

862
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:42.199
and he says to the congregation,
Christ has a way of knowing his

863
01:05:42.360 --> 01:05:46.400
followers, just like the Masons know
who each other are. I don't understand

864
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:49.760
how the Masons do it, and
I don't know how Christ does it either,

865
01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:55.280
but they can identify each other's secret
and that's all he said. He

866
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:59.719
didn't have to elaborate his way.
I look at it back in the nineteenth

867
01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:04.119
the Flash Gorrible movie series, and
he probably have covered this. But perhaps

868
01:06:04.119 --> 01:06:09.480
in some of your discussions had what
the ming the merciless I think was the

869
01:06:09.519 --> 01:06:13.719
bad guy. And in nineteen thirties, if you were giving a sermon anywhere

870
01:06:13.960 --> 01:06:16.679
and you said a really bad guy
like me the merciless, and the audience

871
01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:20.639
would all not because they knew who
mean merciless was. Today, you'd say

872
01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:24.679
a bad guy like Darth Vader,
and everyone would not. They know who

873
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:29.559
Darth Vaders. He's a bad guy. In the same way, William Guthrie

874
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:33.480
could talk about the secret way that
Mason's identified each other and just as casual

875
01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:38.920
throwaway sentence, and every one of
the congregations nodding you. Okay. So

876
01:06:38.960 --> 01:06:43.639
the first ripple reference is sixteen thirty
seven. I'll give him twenty five years

877
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:47.159
just to have a nice real number. Let's pick sixteen hundred. So about

878
01:06:47.239 --> 01:06:54.519
sixteen hundred the Masons developed the first
secret and it's a secret word. They

879
01:06:54.599 --> 01:07:01.840
started admitting more honorary members. Okay. Now fast forward to sixteen sixty six.

880
01:07:02.000 --> 01:07:05.239
W we're travel south from scott One
to England, and that's when you

881
01:07:05.280 --> 01:07:11.480
have the Great Fire of One.
Now, the head of the organization that

882
01:07:11.639 --> 01:07:15.880
run the Masons and Lundon was the
London Mason Company it still exists today,

883
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:18.519
was one of the guills that elects
the Lord Mayor and run the city of

884
01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:25.960
One. And they used to have
a royal monopoly owned building with stone no.

885
01:07:26.440 --> 01:07:31.320
In fact, some twenty or thirty
years ago someone found a stone that

886
01:07:31.400 --> 01:07:35.639
had been intended for the Tower of
London had fallen into the tims and they

887
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:40.000
dug it out of the Tower Tims
and they cleaned it off and they were

888
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:42.960
going to bring it in and make
a presentation to the Tower of London,

889
01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:46.800
and the London Company of Mason stepped
up and said, no stone for building

890
01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:50.559
Burtons can enter the city without our
approval, because we have to check to

891
01:07:50.599 --> 01:07:55.320
make sure it's square and it's going
to fit. So the English had a

892
01:07:55.360 --> 01:07:59.960
grand chance for a ceremony. So
they bring the stone up to the city

893
01:08:00.079 --> 01:08:03.079
walls. The Mason's company comes out
put. The Mason's company is unrelated to

894
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:08.800
the freemason it's independent from the social
fraternity, and so they checked the stone

895
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.559
to make sure it was suitable and
they allowed it about it to go in.

896
01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:15.840
So what happens in sixteen sixty six
London is burned to the ground.

897
01:08:16.279 --> 01:08:24.319
They I think Christopher Wren designed secondary
eighty churches and the Saint Falls and the

898
01:08:24.439 --> 01:08:28.239
King. I don't know how polite
he was when he said, but he

899
01:08:28.239 --> 01:08:30.920
said to the Royal Company, to
the company of Masons, you guys have

900
01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:34.520
done a great job for the last
couple hundred years building the stone. We

901
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:39.239
have an immersions. Any man that's
strong enough to pick up a stone in

902
01:08:39.359 --> 01:08:42.680
one hand and curia trial on the
other is a mason. Thank you very

903
01:08:42.720 --> 01:08:45.760
much. You don't have the Royal
lopany. Now what does mirror is that

904
01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:51.239
the London Company of Masons no longer
had a source of income. They were

905
01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:56.199
no longer apprentice fees. So what
do they do? I mean, you

906
01:08:56.359 --> 01:09:00.359
always hear the advice fall of the
money. The London Company of Masons had

907
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:06.560
a private ceremony called the Exception,
and you could be accepted as a Mason

908
01:09:08.079 --> 01:09:11.960
for a pretty high fee. And
if you looked at the list of men

909
01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:17.520
who were made accepted Masons prior to
the Great Fire of London, there were

910
01:09:17.840 --> 01:09:24.840
middle class businessmen that the petty bourgeoisie
that didn't exist one hundred years prior to

911
01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:30.760
that. They had now reached the
point of economic strength, at economic health.

912
01:09:30.800 --> 01:09:33.960
I guess that they had idle rich
so for some reason. And truly

913
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:38.439
do not know what happened at the
ceremony of the Exception, except me what

914
01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:43.960
occasions In a minute Bret Morris paid
twenty pounds fifty pounds whatever it is,

915
01:09:44.359 --> 01:09:47.119
walket dinner for everybody, and went
through the exception. All of a sudden,

916
01:09:47.560 --> 01:09:54.159
the number of men being accepted into
the London Company of Masons, skywrites

917
01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:57.279
shoots up. The fees shoot up. Okay, it makes sense. The

918
01:09:57.399 --> 01:10:00.479
King has taken away the apprenticeship fees. There is no longer an apprenticeship.

919
01:10:00.560 --> 01:10:04.680
You are put immediately to work.
The London Company of Masons needs more income,

920
01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:10.720
so they start making honorary members and
they're made accepted Masons. Why this

921
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:15.000
was a cool thing to do,
I'm not sure it was. So the

922
01:10:15.079 --> 01:10:20.199
number of Masons increases, that the
number of non operatuite we call them today

923
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:27.119
speculative Masons, because they speculate all
the symbol on symbolism as opposed to building

924
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:30.159
the stone. The number increases.
Now we get up to seventeen seventeen.

925
01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:33.239
And this is part of what appealed
to me. This is not just a

926
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:38.960
group where Mike and Brett got together
with a bear with their buddy Steve and

927
01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:43.800
they decided to make a club of
movie lovers, or if we do that,

928
01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:45.760
we better throw Monica and do so. It's going to be a co

929
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:48.479
ed club of the movie lovers.
And we said, yea, let's do

930
01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:51.000
it. Doesn't it seem prove half
of the Masons. It was up more

931
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:58.680
of a gradual evolution, and at
some point the honorary Masons outnumbered the real

932
01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:04.359
Masons. The activity of a lodge
moved from actually building with stone becoming more

933
01:11:04.399 --> 01:11:09.680
of a social organization. This is
at the same time that the coffee houses

934
01:11:09.720 --> 01:11:14.079
are being created in London. This
is the time when the clubs are being

935
01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:17.439
created in London. You know,
a London is famous for their various social

936
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:25.000
qubs, of various levels of exclusivity. So in seventeen seventeen, the Masons

937
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:28.600
of the London are having a problem. The problem is they have no one

938
01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:31.680
to guide them. They're falling apart
in their activities. And they say,

939
01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:35.560
if we had a central authority,
if we had someone in charge that would

940
01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:41.000
send out a monthly newsletter remind us
to keep more of our toathes, who'd

941
01:11:41.000 --> 01:11:43.760
come around and check up on us, we could get our act together.

942
01:11:43.960 --> 01:11:47.039
So they invented the idea of what's
called a Grand Lodge, that is a

943
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:53.479
regional head of the Masons. Originally
the Grand Lodge of Westminster in London,

944
01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:59.399
and then it expanded to England and
then they picked up Whales and here they

945
01:11:59.399 --> 01:12:05.600
are today. Seventeen seventeen they formed
the first Grand Lodge and one of the

946
01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:09.880
things they weren't doing. One of
the complaints that was made is they were

947
01:12:09.880 --> 01:12:13.720
not folding the lodges. We weren't
fold in the Annual Assembly at feast.

948
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:17.159
So I would like to say they
were party animals and wanted to get together

949
01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:21.119
and drink and toast and eat.
So now the Grand Lodgers want to do

950
01:12:21.159 --> 01:12:27.479
it now. An interesting side note
to this Grand Lodge of Scotland is not

951
01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:30.159
formed from seventeen thirty seven. He
said to himself, wait a minute.

952
01:12:30.159 --> 01:12:35.199
If you guys are older than the
English Mason, and if many of the

953
01:12:35.279 --> 01:12:40.439
important things like the Mason word came
from Scotland, how come it took you

954
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:44.000
so long in the form of grand
Look and they will respond in the flesh

955
01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:47.560
because we weren't falling apart like the
English. We had our act together.

956
01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:54.199
Our lodges function perfectly well without oversight. We would get together occasionally and have

957
01:12:54.239 --> 01:12:58.359
a dinner hosted the dinner last year, we'll do it this time. And

958
01:12:58.600 --> 01:13:05.399
it wasn't until seventeen thirty seven that
they finally and pressure from England from their

959
01:13:05.399 --> 01:13:10.199
own Grand Ledge, and they were
formed after Massachusetts, and I think the

960
01:13:10.319 --> 01:13:15.359
order was England, Ireland, Massachusetts
and then Scottwell. And at some point

961
01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:20.640
shortly after being four, they taught
a member of the nobility to joy and

962
01:13:20.760 --> 01:13:27.479
so the Duke became grand Master and
once that happened, this is a cool

963
01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:30.880
route. That means that here I
am a little shop older and I can

964
01:13:30.960 --> 01:13:34.239
join the group. The Duke of
Montague his head out. He might even

965
01:13:34.279 --> 01:13:38.800
come to the meeting. Will know
it wouldn't that be cool that I get

966
01:13:38.800 --> 01:13:42.960
the dinner with the Duke. So
it was the first game in Terren.

967
01:13:43.159 --> 01:13:46.279
It was the only game of down, and it spread like wildfire. So

968
01:13:46.760 --> 01:13:53.960
the Masons didn't actually build the Temple
of Solomon then were massacred afterwards. That's

969
01:13:54.039 --> 01:13:58.760
the story that I tend to hear. That is the guild ledger. Every

970
01:13:58.800 --> 01:14:03.039
guild had some leg for how they
formed, who their patron saints were.

971
01:14:03.640 --> 01:14:09.319
Everyone wanted to trace themselves back just
a little bit further. We go back

972
01:14:09.319 --> 01:14:14.119
to King Solomon's temple. Oh,
we go back to Hey Braham, we

973
01:14:14.199 --> 01:14:16.760
go back to Adam, and we
go back to the candy can't push back.

974
01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:20.000
And much further than that. There's
also the stories I hear that,

975
01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:24.720
oh, it was the Masons that
built the pyramids. The Basons were building

976
01:14:24.760 --> 01:14:28.800
King Solomon's temple, and surely they
built anything that came after it. And

977
01:14:28.920 --> 01:14:31.399
in fact, there was one branch
of the Masons that said, we go

978
01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:36.319
back the Tower of Babel, which
is older than solom Step. Everyone's looking

979
01:14:36.359 --> 01:14:40.840
for something old and honorable that they
can claim that makes them more special than

980
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:44.920
everyone else. And so when you
guys have your meetings, do you just

981
01:14:44.960 --> 01:14:48.319
talk about how to control all the
members of government? Correct? Given the

982
01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:53.560
state of the government today, we
take a heads off approach. Actually,

983
01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:57.359
one of the things the Masons did
very smart, very very smart, back

984
01:14:57.439 --> 01:15:01.680
in maybe seven I'm sure it was
adeen seventeen, right after the Forum,

985
01:15:01.760 --> 01:15:05.199
they said there are two things that
cannot be discussed at a lodge meeting.

986
01:15:05.279 --> 01:15:11.279
Cannot discuss politics. You cannot discuss
religion full stock what else you've invite about

987
01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:16.000
your favorite soccer team. This whole
thing of opening it up to people that

988
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:21.359
just aren't Masons themselves, that's how
it's been for a few hundred years now.

989
01:15:21.399 --> 01:15:26.520
That's actually probably how you manage to
be because I don't imagine you're not

990
01:15:26.560 --> 01:15:30.000
cutting stone, you're a mathematician.
In my lodge, we do have a

991
01:15:30.079 --> 01:15:36.399
real Stonemason. He does general contract
work, but he also does find morrible

992
01:15:36.479 --> 01:15:40.279
cutting. So if you order to
math of the state of Michigan, he's

993
01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:44.560
the guy that you would hire to
take the morrible cutting into shape, use

994
01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:46.840
mortar and foot into plays on the
floor of the wall, and then put

995
01:15:47.159 --> 01:15:51.560
the mosaic who rend So we happen
to have a real Stonemason, the boy

996
01:15:51.640 --> 01:15:59.039
Wach And we also live in.
My lodge in particular, is very close

997
01:15:59.079 --> 01:16:03.600
to Fort Meade, maryl So we
have an unusually large number of employees of

998
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:08.960
the National Security Agency in one place. And that's just because we are geographically

999
01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:13.800
the nearest lodge. And anyone that
works at ANSA who's a major employer in

1000
01:16:13.840 --> 01:16:17.600
Maryland and wants to join the lodge
probably lives near our lodge for some reason.

1001
01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:23.479
And there have been honorary members going
back centuries, and you can imagine

1002
01:16:23.520 --> 01:16:27.600
it makes sense that you make in
Scotland, you make the vocal laird a

1003
01:16:27.720 --> 01:16:32.920
honorary member, and maybe he will
sponsor around the drinks at the Christmas banquet,

1004
01:16:33.119 --> 01:16:38.920
you invite him to preside at the
annual banquet or whatever. Doesn't hurt

1005
01:16:38.960 --> 01:16:43.920
to have friends like that. So
the idea of honorary Mason's honorary members goes

1006
01:16:43.960 --> 01:16:48.000
back some time, and it picked
up steam as it moved forward. After

1007
01:16:48.279 --> 01:16:53.640
sixteen hundred, there are enough honorary
members in London that they took over in

1008
01:16:53.720 --> 01:16:59.399
seventeen seven. And one of the
questions it's always raised, just how gradual

1009
01:16:59.640 --> 01:17:04.840
was the process. Did each year
you get a few more honorary members until

1010
01:17:04.880 --> 01:17:11.800
they finally squeezed out the older members, or did the old guild system just

1011
01:17:12.039 --> 01:17:15.560
collapse and someone say, hey,
here's a pretty cool organization. Let's take

1012
01:17:15.560 --> 01:17:20.199
it over and really ourselves. And
to be honest, we don't know.

1013
01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:26.560
I kind of like the gradual evolution
theory, but there's not a move evidence

1014
01:17:26.680 --> 01:17:30.199
that there wasn't a radical shift,
a radical table, but good a bit,

1015
01:17:30.640 --> 01:17:36.960
I don't know. And some people
prefer the radical takeover idea that the

1016
01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:42.600
old Guild organization was just crumbling and
maybe to even going down to business.

1017
01:17:42.920 --> 01:17:45.760
All of its left was the name
They said, you know that the Masons

1018
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:47.479
used to meet here on this tavern, Well why couldn't we do it?

1019
01:17:47.560 --> 01:17:51.319
Oh cool? You want to be
the worst for master or the right worst

1020
01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:58.159
deputy grand master? Oh wow,
Hoods you mentioned the idea of degrees earlier.

1021
01:17:58.199 --> 01:18:00.560
It's that kind of like going back
to your tep scout days. Is

1022
01:18:00.600 --> 01:18:05.840
that kind of like Tenderfoot, you
know, like all the different stations like

1023
01:18:05.960 --> 01:18:09.600
with Boy Scouts. Of course you
got the Eagle Scouts and all these kind

1024
01:18:09.640 --> 01:18:13.680
of things. Is that a thirty
third degree was the person that's gone through

1025
01:18:13.720 --> 01:18:16.680
all of this. Here's what you
got at its most basic level. You

1026
01:18:16.800 --> 01:18:20.279
had two levels of membership. You
were an apprentice and then you were a

1027
01:18:20.279 --> 01:18:26.760
fellow of the graft. And so
after you finished your apprenticeship, I think

1028
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:30.359
it was a seven year apprenticeship.
It was the typical apprenticeship, and you

1029
01:18:30.439 --> 01:18:33.880
worked for the master and there was
this quid pro quo. He would teach

1030
01:18:33.920 --> 01:18:40.439
you the skills necessary to be an
independent worker, and you would provide him

1031
01:18:40.520 --> 01:18:45.279
with faithful service during the training period, and then you would be a mason,

1032
01:18:45.319 --> 01:18:48.880
a fellow of the graft. Now, during this period when you had

1033
01:18:48.920 --> 01:18:54.359
two levels of membership, they had
masters, but the master was the guy

1034
01:18:54.399 --> 01:18:57.479
that had He was like the general
contract. He was the guy that had

1035
01:18:57.520 --> 01:19:01.920
the contract. And so for the
school that we're building, you might get

1036
01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:05.359
the contract and you would be the
master mason, and so you would be

1037
01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:10.680
in charge and I would report to
you. Next contract, when we're going

1038
01:19:10.720 --> 01:19:14.000
to build a small chapel, I
might win the contract and then I would

1039
01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:16.760
be the master mason and you'd report
to me. The other way you could

1040
01:19:16.760 --> 01:19:20.000
be a master is you could be
elected Master of lodge. It was a

1041
01:19:20.039 --> 01:19:28.640
presiding position, so it was a
position of responsibility and people took turns pulling

1042
01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:33.319
it. Now, something odd happens
in seventeen twenty five, and we don't

1043
01:19:33.319 --> 01:19:38.199
know what it is because all of
a sudden there is a new level of

1044
01:19:38.239 --> 01:19:43.640
membership called Master Mason. So now
there are three levels of membership entered,

1045
01:19:43.640 --> 01:19:47.319
apprentice, and Fellow of the craft. And now there's a new third one

1046
01:19:47.399 --> 01:19:55.000
called master Mason. And we're pretty
sure that it stirred in Scotland. We

1047
01:19:55.239 --> 01:20:00.039
think we know what date it was
picked up by English Masons and made it

1048
01:20:00.079 --> 01:20:03.119
back to England, but we don't
know why it started. We don't know.

1049
01:20:04.239 --> 01:20:12.079
We suspect that it was started by
the joel and Masons because it involves

1050
01:20:12.319 --> 01:20:15.079
a guild legend. But it's a
guild legend that had never been heard of

1051
01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:19.079
before. Just like a lightning bolt, it suddenly appears. It's a pretty

1052
01:20:19.199 --> 01:20:25.600
entertaining story, morals in it and
loss of symbolism. You can see where

1053
01:20:25.720 --> 01:20:30.520
it would be much more interesting than
the very simple welcome to the Lodge type

1054
01:20:30.520 --> 01:20:35.119
of ceremonies that existed for an apprentice
in a philograph, So that starts in

1055
01:20:35.199 --> 01:20:41.560
seventeen twenty five, and then eight
years later, in seven bout thirty three,

1056
01:20:41.720 --> 01:20:45.520
we have the first evidence of a
fourth degree of membership, and this

1057
01:20:45.600 --> 01:20:49.199
is called the scott Semester and had
nothing to do with Scott. Then they

1058
01:20:49.239 --> 01:20:55.720
started coming fast and furious, and
so you had dozens of them, hundreds

1059
01:20:55.720 --> 01:21:00.439
of them appearing as near as we
can tell. Friends, really what gaga

1060
01:21:00.760 --> 01:21:06.079
over these extra degrees? So they
started producing them by the handfuls, then

1061
01:21:06.439 --> 01:21:13.880
by the armloads, and by the
end of the eighteenth century you have one

1062
01:21:13.920 --> 01:21:16.439
of the branches, it's familiar with
the United States, is the Scottish rite

1063
01:21:16.439 --> 01:21:19.920
with thirty three degrees. But then
you add the Royal Large Masons, the

1064
01:21:19.960 --> 01:21:26.119
mark Master Masons, the Knights Temple
where the Royal or Scotland the mistress goes.

1065
01:21:26.479 --> 01:21:30.640
And they were all connected and glued
together in different ways, all overlapping

1066
01:21:30.680 --> 01:21:35.680
degrees. I would borrow or plagiarize
your degree, you would borrow and plagiarize

1067
01:21:35.720 --> 01:21:45.359
my degree. And I think what
happened is that the most organizational successful groups

1068
01:21:45.399 --> 01:21:49.800
through the ones that prevailed for whatever
reason, you were a better organizer than

1069
01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:56.479
I was. So your system of
thirteen levels of membership worked better than my

1070
01:21:56.600 --> 01:22:00.399
system of fifteen levels of membership,
not because thirteen or fifteen were important,

1071
01:22:00.760 --> 01:22:06.000
but because you were a better administrator, Dalia. And so you were charismatic,

1072
01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:12.520
you organized. You belong to enough
organizations in your life that you've seen

1073
01:22:12.560 --> 01:22:16.880
well run organizations and poorty run organizations
really doesn't have anything to do with the

1074
01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:23.520
mission of the organization. So what
has happened in the United States, And

1075
01:22:23.560 --> 01:22:27.600
this is one of the things that
tripped up to the script writers all and

1076
01:22:27.680 --> 01:22:31.079
murdered by decree. They assumed that
the thirty third degree, but it was

1077
01:22:31.079 --> 01:22:34.119
the pelicle. No, the thirty
third degree is the peinicle, or a

1078
01:22:34.119 --> 01:22:39.279
branch of Masonry called the Scottish writer. There is another branch of Nasonry that

1079
01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:42.760
in the United States we call the
York. They don't call it the York

1080
01:22:42.880 --> 01:22:45.079
right at all. In England it's
kind of what's the York? But there

1081
01:22:45.119 --> 01:22:50.239
are all kinds of other organizations you
can join. And that's one of I

1082
01:22:50.279 --> 01:22:59.720
think the lasting strengths of freemasonry is
that every twenty five years, maybe a

1083
01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:03.520
new organization is created sometimes you'll have
a whole flurry of activity and it will

1084
01:23:03.560 --> 01:23:10.000
create a dozen organizations within ten years
or something. And these often turn out

1085
01:23:10.079 --> 01:23:15.119
to be young guys that join the
organization and they find out that all the

1086
01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:19.800
leadership positions are taken again the other
branches. Okay, spark, I said,

1087
01:23:19.800 --> 01:23:23.119
we'll start our own group, and
they start their own group, and

1088
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:27.640
then they fill up the leadership positions
and someone comes up. And I think

1089
01:23:27.680 --> 01:23:33.039
a good way to think about it
is think about a university community. Everybody

1090
01:23:33.479 --> 01:23:36.640
is a student and is going to
get a bachelor's degree. Oh, here's

1091
01:23:36.680 --> 01:23:42.640
assuming we finished college. Some people
want to play football, and they want

1092
01:23:42.680 --> 01:23:46.279
to play serious football, so they
come out of school's NCA team. Other

1093
01:23:46.319 --> 01:23:50.880
guys want to play football, but
not at that level of competition, so

1094
01:23:50.920 --> 01:23:56.319
they joined the intramural game where the
dorms play against each other, the fraternities

1095
01:23:56.359 --> 01:24:00.439
play against each other. You have
the same thing with music organizations, marching

1096
01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:04.039
band, the jazz band. You
have there's a chemistry club, there's their

1097
01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:10.800
singing groups. So you can join
a lot of these organizations. And these

1098
01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:15.640
organizations are all built upon the foundation
of the college, the college years,

1099
01:24:15.760 --> 01:24:19.920
the base level, and actually in
while it is the bottom, it is

1100
01:24:19.960 --> 01:24:25.239
the most powerful piece. Five beta
Kappa may be an important honor. People

1101
01:24:25.319 --> 01:24:30.119
may gas when you say I'm a
Kappa gradual, Oh wow, But being

1102
01:24:30.239 --> 01:24:33.560
five beta Kappa doesn't give you any
kind of privileges at the budget. It

1103
01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:39.720
doesn't give you any kind of authority
to assign professors to teach topics. It

1104
01:24:39.840 --> 01:24:44.560
just happens to be an honor that
acknowledges at one point you achieve a certain

1105
01:24:44.640 --> 01:24:48.600
level of academic bascheles, and so
all of the other brand of masonry.

1106
01:24:48.880 --> 01:24:54.000
The Scottish Rite, the York Right, and the Shrine are probably the three

1107
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:57.840
biggest one. Then the Eastern Star
that that's the code for men of their

1108
01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:02.520
wives. Those are probably the four
big organizations. There are dozens of groups.

1109
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:06.039
If you're interested in Massonic history,
the chick will are interstood. There

1110
01:25:06.479 --> 01:25:12.680
are two large national groups. One
is called the Fellow Leathies Society that means

1111
01:25:12.760 --> 01:25:15.840
lovers of truth, it's the Greek
word. And the other one is just

1112
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:21.600
called the Masonic Society, and they
publish a quarterly journals with Masonic history artist.

1113
01:25:21.640 --> 01:25:26.000
So now if you like Masonic history, why you won't remember one of

1114
01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:29.920
these groups or both of them.
If massonic history isn't quite your thing,

1115
01:25:30.399 --> 01:25:32.800
maybe it'd be happy, happier being
a Shriner. And they're the ones that

1116
01:25:33.000 --> 01:25:38.039
were marching the parades, they were
the fezes, and they have this breathtaking

1117
01:25:38.359 --> 01:25:43.760
network. I think it's twenty four
children's hospitals around the United States. They

1118
01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:47.920
were created at the time of the
polio epidemic back in the early nineteen twenties,

1119
01:25:48.039 --> 01:25:55.840
and so they were originally orthopedic hospitals. And now something interesting has happened.

1120
01:25:56.279 --> 01:26:00.239
A medicine is moving away from impatient
care and it's outpatient care. It

1121
01:26:00.439 --> 01:26:05.880
is only the most serious of operations
that they'll have you stay overnight in the

1122
01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:09.960
hospital. They want to get you
out of there as fast as they can,

1123
01:26:10.239 --> 01:26:14.720
and so previously, back in the
nineteen twenties, when a child with

1124
01:26:14.520 --> 01:26:18.279
the polio might spend weeks or months
in the hospital getting treatment, they just

1125
01:26:18.359 --> 01:26:25.840
do an an outpatient basis. Another
interesting thing that happened, and this factoid

1126
01:26:25.880 --> 01:26:30.880
sticks in my mind. Back in
how to say that forties or fifties,

1127
01:26:30.359 --> 01:26:35.720
in the Twin Cities area Minneapolis Saint
Paul, there was exactly one pediatric hospital

1128
01:26:35.720 --> 01:26:40.560
and that was the Shrinder's Hospital in
patrolling, so they do not They specialize

1129
01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:47.000
in orthopedic medicine for children, but
they also provide other childhood services. Today

1130
01:26:47.119 --> 01:26:53.159
there are eight pediatric hospitals in the
area. And the Shreders went from having

1131
01:26:53.199 --> 01:26:58.039
a monopoly who being worn. They
may move to a competitor because they are

1132
01:26:58.039 --> 01:27:01.600
ten miles further away, So there's
an evolution of what they offer. Yeah,

1133
01:27:01.640 --> 01:27:05.920
they're they're all kinds of branches of
masonry. And the big Cahuna is

1134
01:27:05.960 --> 01:27:11.399
the president of the universe, the
grand Master of the Grand Lodge. Everybody

1135
01:27:11.439 --> 01:27:15.600
else, no matter how important you
think the president of five betacap is,

1136
01:27:15.039 --> 01:27:18.720
no matter how important you think the
thirty third degree is. When you get

1137
01:27:18.720 --> 01:27:23.479
down to it is the grand Master
of the president of the university that pulls

1138
01:27:23.479 --> 01:27:27.800
the strings. So what was it
about the nineteen seventies And it might have

1139
01:27:27.880 --> 01:27:31.159
gone back even earlier. I know
there is the book The Ripper Files,

1140
01:27:31.319 --> 01:27:39.560
and then that kind of lit a
fire to suddenly recast the Masons as protecting

1141
01:27:40.119 --> 01:27:44.560
perhaps one of their fellow members who
has Jack the Ripper. How does all

1142
01:27:44.560 --> 01:27:46.560
of this stuff happen? Why are
you guys the bad guys? All of

1143
01:27:46.600 --> 01:27:53.199
a sudden, it's not just us. You take any societal institution and you

1144
01:27:53.279 --> 01:27:59.119
conclind that they have ups and downs. And Stephen Knight, a curious thing

1145
01:27:59.479 --> 01:28:03.279
is in England all the bad press
to the Masons is about helping each other

1146
01:28:03.359 --> 01:28:08.560
socially, or the police are all
Masons. They give special treatment to their

1147
01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:13.039
brothers. In the United States,
it's all that the Masons are the anti

1148
01:28:13.119 --> 01:28:18.920
Christ, that they are secretly pagan
religious worshippers, and no particular concern about

1149
01:28:19.239 --> 01:28:27.720
government corruption. It's all religious corruption. I guess a social historian familiar with

1150
01:28:27.840 --> 01:28:34.760
English history and American history would be
able to explain why one black beast is

1151
01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:41.520
anti religion and the other black beast
is helping insiders. But for whatever reason,

1152
01:28:41.800 --> 01:28:45.640
Stephen Knight writes this book in nineteen
seventy six, I believe that was

1153
01:28:45.680 --> 01:28:53.560
the date in England, and he
comes up with this fairly convoluted story that

1154
01:28:53.680 --> 01:28:59.000
has massive holes, but it appealed
to the public and in particular the Masons.

1155
01:28:59.560 --> 01:29:01.600
The night guys that have been around
all the time, but you know,

1156
01:29:02.119 --> 01:29:06.439
they always get the other drinks after
work, and it always seems you

1157
01:29:06.439 --> 01:29:11.960
ever know is that the Masons nearly
always hire another Mason to work for them,

1158
01:29:12.039 --> 01:29:15.359
there's something going on. I'm not
in the Masons, and they've got

1159
01:29:15.399 --> 01:29:18.439
an edge that I don't know,
just like the And I think he gets

1160
01:29:18.479 --> 01:29:24.840
back to the social structure in England, where you've got landed gentry, where

1161
01:29:24.840 --> 01:29:30.800
you have nobility, where you have
the bourgeoisie that is above the working class,

1162
01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:36.199
and you have this very small class
separation in England. So there's some

1163
01:29:36.319 --> 01:29:40.960
jealousy. So Knight's book came out. When you read the details, they're

1164
01:29:41.039 --> 01:29:45.920
huge holes in the story. Wikipedia
as a pretty good summer and it became

1165
01:29:46.000 --> 01:29:51.600
popular and it went through twenty editions, I think, and then ten twelve

1166
01:29:51.680 --> 01:29:55.920
years later, I think it was
nineteen eighty eight, Stephen Knight came out

1167
01:29:55.960 --> 01:30:00.359
with his book The Brotherhood, where
he learned to demonstrate that the may Masons,

1168
01:30:00.520 --> 01:30:04.399
especially Masons and the police were doing
favors to their friends and buddies and

1169
01:30:05.239 --> 01:30:09.359
wash my back and I'll wash you
a back type of thing. Now,

1170
01:30:09.520 --> 01:30:15.079
while that's going on England, in
the United States and now I want to

1171
01:30:15.119 --> 01:30:23.520
say this was about nineteen ninety a
guy in the Southern Baptist conventional, James

1172
01:30:23.680 --> 01:30:28.279
Larry Ollie I believe was his name. He was a physician down in Dawn,

1173
01:30:28.479 --> 01:30:32.439
Texas. He got it in his
mind that the reason that the Southern

1174
01:30:32.479 --> 01:30:40.920
Baptists losing members was because we allowed
those satanic devil worshiping freemasons to be members

1175
01:30:40.960 --> 01:30:45.439
of the church and to have positions
of authority. It had nothing to do

1176
01:30:45.680 --> 01:30:49.840
that every other denomination in the United
States was losing membership. The Baptists were

1177
01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:55.079
special and the Baptists were different.
And the I mean, you would expect

1178
01:30:55.159 --> 01:31:00.199
the Presbyterians of the Catholics to go
because they're not Baptists, the Baptists.

1179
01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:08.159
And so what he does is he
writes this book on Freemasonry and Baptists and

1180
01:31:08.159 --> 01:31:13.000
then the Southern Baptist Church. And
then he is a I think they're called

1181
01:31:13.119 --> 01:31:16.880
messengers. He's a voting member of
the Annual Convention of the Southern Baptist Church.

1182
01:31:17.119 --> 01:31:21.479
And he puts emotional floor that the
Southern Baptists are willing to dis fellowship

1183
01:31:21.560 --> 01:31:27.119
all Freemasons. And it is like
slapping the side of the head with the

1184
01:31:27.119 --> 01:31:30.840
two before. No one expected this
to come. He just decided to do

1185
01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:34.239
it. And then all of a
sudden there is this wild scramble as churches.

1186
01:31:34.239 --> 01:31:38.640
There's some churches there's saying, wait
a minute, are the Masons really

1187
01:31:38.640 --> 01:31:43.079
a problem. Let's check into this
another. Churches are saying, wait a

1188
01:31:43.159 --> 01:31:47.680
minute, three fourths of our decounts
then, and the associate pastor and the

1189
01:31:47.680 --> 01:31:51.399
principle of the superintendent of the Sunny
School are all Masons. They're not a

1190
01:31:51.399 --> 01:31:56.039
problem. What kind of idiot is
this? So there's this for some reason.

1191
01:31:56.399 --> 01:32:00.920
On both sides of the Atlantic,
there are these attack on freemason for

1192
01:32:00.039 --> 01:32:05.760
internally different reasons. And then Dan
Brown comes out with his book The Da

1193
01:32:05.800 --> 01:32:12.520
Vinci Code, and that is now
two thousand and five maybe, so you

1194
01:32:12.600 --> 01:32:15.000
know, you've got seventy six.
You have the Jack the Ripper things that

1195
01:32:15.239 --> 01:32:20.359
the Masons are up committing these horrible
murders to cover up the one of their

1196
01:32:20.359 --> 01:32:25.760
own who with the Prince of wale
O Deserver which was air apparent to the

1197
01:32:25.760 --> 01:32:30.680
throne. And then you have the
attack Night continues his attack that the Masons

1198
01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:34.960
are now helping each other in an
unethical way. And then you shift across

1199
01:32:35.239 --> 01:32:39.479
the Atlantic and now all of a
sudden, the Masons are being attacked.

1200
01:32:39.800 --> 01:32:45.479
They're the anti Christ. And then
ten years after that, fifteen years after

1201
01:32:45.560 --> 01:32:48.920
that, Dan Brown comes out with
the Da Vinci Code eighteen million copies.

1202
01:32:48.960 --> 01:32:54.399
I think it's home nineteen million copies. No one expected them. They're like

1203
01:32:54.520 --> 01:32:58.399
two or three sentences about the Masons
in there. They say something nice about

1204
01:32:58.439 --> 01:33:01.239
the Mason, but all of us, so of the Masons are good guys.

1205
01:33:01.439 --> 01:33:08.079
And then you have national Preasure,
National pressure, the worldly successful movie,

1206
01:33:08.119 --> 01:33:10.800
and that there's a secret message on
the back of the deco region of

1207
01:33:10.840 --> 01:33:15.720
Independence. And it's just a it's
a carnival ride. It don't pay too

1208
01:33:15.760 --> 01:33:19.399
much attention to the plot. And
now the Masons and the good guys go

1209
01:33:19.520 --> 01:33:24.600
figure for the Catholics. The good
guys or are they child boets? These

1210
01:33:24.720 --> 01:33:28.560
various groups have ups and downs.
How did you come to rate the Complete

1211
01:33:28.600 --> 01:33:33.039
Idiots Guide to Freemasonry? Chris Hodapp
wrote the Dummies and so you have Freemasons

1212
01:33:33.039 --> 01:33:36.520
for Dummies done, then you have
to completed its guide. And he came

1213
01:33:36.600 --> 01:33:41.920
to that's why. I was working
for the Supreme Council the Scottish headquarters in

1214
01:33:42.039 --> 01:33:45.439
Washington, and he showed up when
we do some research. I met him

1215
01:33:45.479 --> 01:33:47.960
for the first time. I helped
him and I said, one nice project,

1216
01:33:48.000 --> 01:33:51.199
good luck, I'm looking forward to
reading it. And then four or

1217
01:33:51.199 --> 01:33:56.079
five months later, I get a
call for a buddy of Marine and he

1218
01:33:56.199 --> 01:34:00.840
said, I was just asked to
write the Complete Idiots Guy to Freemasonry.

1219
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:04.000
I don't have time. I didn't
like agent they sound. I told him

1220
01:34:04.039 --> 01:34:08.079
you might be interested. I said, oh yeah, let me talk to

1221
01:34:08.199 --> 01:34:11.840
him. And so this is around
the time the Da Vinci code is coming

1222
01:34:11.880 --> 01:34:17.159
out of the meaning everyone that told
many people are lead crumbs off at Dan

1223
01:34:17.239 --> 01:34:23.399
Brown's table any day. My book, which was not as successful as Chris's

1224
01:34:23.399 --> 01:34:26.560
book, The Dummies, were not
as successful with the Idiots, were not

1225
01:34:26.640 --> 01:34:30.720
as successful with the drumbies. I
sold over fifty thousand copies of my book.

1226
01:34:30.079 --> 01:34:34.600
That's That's not bad at all.
Published a math book by the Mathematic

1227
01:34:34.680 --> 01:34:39.439
Association of America, and I think
I sold six thousand copies, which were

1228
01:34:39.439 --> 01:34:43.359
a math book. The two thumbs
up fifty thousand, though the real world

1229
01:34:43.600 --> 01:34:48.720
is pretty impressive. So they gave
me the assignment. And I started teaching

1230
01:34:49.000 --> 01:34:54.800
at the college level back in seventy
six. So I've done a fair amount

1231
01:34:54.800 --> 01:34:59.800
of teaching. It's early. All
been as an agile factory mom. But

1232
01:35:00.199 --> 01:35:03.720
I said to myself, Okay,
what if I'm teaching a course in history

1233
01:35:03.760 --> 01:35:12.800
American sociology something like this, and
the term paper is to describe an American

1234
01:35:13.000 --> 01:35:16.439
organization in detail, how it originated, how it functions, what impact it

1235
01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:20.479
has on the community, what it
does. Okay, yeah, I could

1236
01:35:20.479 --> 01:35:26.279
see that as being an interesting topic, and I said, now let's do

1237
01:35:26.319 --> 01:35:30.920
it for freemasonry. So I said, how wouldn't put that information together?

1238
01:35:30.119 --> 01:35:38.279
Now? Just isn't as an FI. The dummies have a fairly specific format

1239
01:35:38.319 --> 01:35:41.760
that you have to follow. The
book must have at least five and no

1240
01:35:41.880 --> 01:35:45.239
more than nine chapters. Each chapter
must have at least three parts and no

1241
01:35:45.359 --> 01:35:50.039
more than five parts. You must
have at least every other page a sidebar

1242
01:35:50.199 --> 01:35:56.079
that's going to say a neat fact, a little more detail of the background.

1243
01:35:56.720 --> 01:36:00.159
As you read these books, they
have these sidebars all through it,

1244
01:36:00.359 --> 01:36:04.800
and east sideboards is formulate. You
can't go more than two pages without putting

1245
01:36:04.800 --> 01:36:08.960
in a sidebar. You have to
have at least three kinds of sideboard.

1246
01:36:09.079 --> 01:36:14.319
One is just a factual historical the
Schreider's work was formed in nineteen twenty seven

1247
01:36:14.479 --> 01:36:18.119
or twenty four whatever it is,
so that you're just a factual sidebar.

1248
01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:23.960
And then another one we're going to
expand and explain that a thirty third degree

1249
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:29.880
mason has no more authority than a
master mason and a local watch. And

1250
01:36:30.119 --> 01:36:34.520
so you have these little sideboarders,
and it's a pretty successful formula. Now

1251
01:36:34.680 --> 01:36:41.640
you need to have someone that has
a pretty broad background topic if they're going

1252
01:36:41.680 --> 01:36:46.319
to write this beginner's and production,
because having that broad topic means you know

1253
01:36:46.399 --> 01:36:49.760
what has to be included, and
more important than that, what can be

1254
01:36:49.920 --> 01:36:57.079
exclude. So how many different coed
organizations do we want to talk about in

1255
01:36:57.119 --> 01:37:00.119
the book. There's the Eastern Store, there's the Order of the Ambulances,

1256
01:37:00.159 --> 01:37:03.319
the boy Shwine at Jerusalem. Their
list, those aren't known, and so

1257
01:37:03.520 --> 01:37:06.920
I knew enough to list the two
biggest ones. And then I said,

1258
01:37:06.960 --> 01:37:14.640
in addition to these, here are
some others that existed in their even chocolate

1259
01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:17.159
block. I had enough knowledge that
I knew what to put it in,

1260
01:37:17.239 --> 01:37:21.760
what to keep out. So I
put together the book and it was reasonably

1261
01:37:21.800 --> 01:37:30.399
successful. Penwin is the parent company
of Alpha, which publishes the Completities guides.

1262
01:37:30.880 --> 01:37:38.600
They are not as aggressive about translating
and putting their additions in other countries,

1263
01:37:38.840 --> 01:37:45.439
whiley who handles the Dummies, is
very aggressive about translating and getting other

1264
01:37:45.600 --> 01:37:49.560
dishes out around. So I'm very
envious of Chris that he had a more

1265
01:37:49.560 --> 01:37:56.199
aggressive publisher. That's how I became
the editor that completed Its Guide, and

1266
01:37:57.359 --> 01:38:00.720
I also had the advantage at that
point I was the editor of the Scottish

1267
01:38:00.800 --> 01:38:04.680
Rite Journal, which was the largest
circulation with sonic magazine in the world and

1268
01:38:05.359 --> 01:38:10.119
one of the things and I'm amused
by this to know if you look at

1269
01:38:10.119 --> 01:38:15.640
the cover of the completed Its Guide
to Freemasonry by Esprit Morris Kama, PhD.

1270
01:38:15.199 --> 01:38:23.399
I have given up my major writing
and editorial duties simply because I got

1271
01:38:23.439 --> 01:38:28.680
some health issues that make really fatigue. With the meds I'm taking and the

1272
01:38:28.760 --> 01:38:32.039
health issues I take lots of naps. Nice thing about naps is the side

1273
01:38:32.079 --> 01:38:38.720
effects of naps are well understood and
they're pretty benign, so I don't worry

1274
01:38:38.720 --> 01:38:43.239
about that. But I just didn't
want to have the pressure hanging over me

1275
01:38:43.560 --> 01:38:47.920
of grinding something else. I haven't
stopped attending meetings. I am working on

1276
01:38:48.079 --> 01:38:54.159
some projects that particularly interest me.
I remember that I told you earlier that

1277
01:38:54.239 --> 01:39:00.640
I was Charles Warren's successor and Quadrud
Coronati Lodge Quadru Coronati was the first lodge

1278
01:39:00.680 --> 01:39:06.279
of historians, or the first lodge
of we call ourselves the Authentic school as

1279
01:39:06.279 --> 01:39:13.399
opposed to the Romantic school, and
publish something by Quadrucornati. They want a

1280
01:39:13.399 --> 01:39:17.680
footnote. You can't just say,
yeah, the English like orange, mormal

1281
01:39:17.760 --> 01:39:25.000
ad better than strawberry. No,
you've got to say production records turn into

1282
01:39:25.319 --> 01:39:30.239
the ministry of whatever show so many
tons versus so it has to be factual.

1283
01:39:30.720 --> 01:39:35.359
So one of the things I find
that I enjoy is type setting,

1284
01:39:35.800 --> 01:39:43.399
because it's the mathematical way of laying
out these objects that look appealing, that

1285
01:39:43.560 --> 01:39:48.520
fit into a regular grid, and
they are simul clorously mathematically organized, and

1286
01:39:48.840 --> 01:39:55.479
they're also visually appealing. And so
if you what is the rule. I've

1287
01:39:55.520 --> 01:39:58.920
seen the chart, but if you
have, I think it's twenty words.

1288
01:39:59.239 --> 01:40:03.640
Is the op with the paragraph?
Your eye can fall twenty words, get

1289
01:40:03.680 --> 01:40:08.359
to it, drop down and start
the next line, and you don't lose

1290
01:40:08.359 --> 01:40:13.039
the one if you have an enormously
long line with eighty words that you get

1291
01:40:13.119 --> 01:40:15.279
so far down to the end of
the line and you go back, you

1292
01:40:15.319 --> 01:40:18.479
try to go to the next line
and your loss your eye can't fall.

1293
01:40:18.880 --> 01:40:25.720
So there's an example of a rule
that makes reading easier. As a mathematician,

1294
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:30.640
I can apply that mathematical rule and
yet it produces something that is esthetically

1295
01:40:30.640 --> 01:40:34.359
pleasing. I helped the editors of
both the Scottish Rite Research Society in the

1296
01:40:34.399 --> 01:40:40.079
United States and Quadrum for a NATI
Lodge in England. I helped the way

1297
01:40:40.079 --> 01:40:44.600
out in design books. And then
one of the things that I enjoy doing

1298
01:40:45.479 --> 01:40:51.039
is indexing. And indexing is deeply
mathematical to me and one of the things

1299
01:40:51.159 --> 01:40:57.720
we want to do that a Quadricordati
Lodge is. Since eighty six the Foundation

1300
01:40:57.840 --> 01:41:02.239
found the lodge, we have produced
an annual transactions, so papers that were

1301
01:41:02.279 --> 01:41:06.640
delivered to the lodger or submitted from
research and they were indexed every year.

1302
01:41:08.079 --> 01:41:13.600
We want to merge the indexes together, but that becomes very interesting. Are

1303
01:41:13.640 --> 01:41:16.560
you going to be indexed as white
Comma Mike. Okay, that's cool.

1304
01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:20.880
We could also index you as white
Comma Michael. We could index you as

1305
01:41:20.960 --> 01:41:27.920
white Comma m period. We could
index you as White Comma Captain Michael,

1306
01:41:28.199 --> 01:41:34.039
Comma USA or USM or whatever.
It did. The thing that is most

1307
01:41:34.079 --> 01:41:40.840
important about building an index take a
style and stick to it. You can

1308
01:41:41.079 --> 01:41:44.439
and in fact, it's good advice
from a book. You can argue about

1309
01:41:44.439 --> 01:41:47.359
whether you need an Oxford comma or
at the end of the day, make

1310
01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:53.560
a decision and stick to it.
And so what I've been doing is my

1311
01:41:53.680 --> 01:42:00.119
goal is to take the one hundred
and thirty existing indexes merge them together in

1312
01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:05.079
such a way that you can look
up peanut butter and you're really interested in

1313
01:42:05.159 --> 01:42:10.520
crunchy peanut butter, so you look
under peanut butter might be a category of

1314
01:42:10.640 --> 01:42:14.279
nut butters. And so when you
go to peanut butter and say seed nut

1315
01:42:14.279 --> 01:42:16.359
butters, and it'll list all little
butter, peanut butter, cashew butter,

1316
01:42:16.680 --> 01:42:23.199
and then under peanut buttered it'll have
smooth and creamy like that. So that's

1317
01:42:23.239 --> 01:42:27.840
a long term project that I'm looking
at. Mister Morris, thank you so

1318
01:42:27.920 --> 01:42:30.600
much for your time today. This
was so great talking with you. Absolutely,

1319
01:42:50.239 --> 01:42:54.319
I'd like to start with how you
decided to become an actress. I'm

1320
01:42:54.319 --> 01:42:58.760
always curious about how people decide to
become that profession that they stick with for

1321
01:42:58.880 --> 01:43:03.640
so long. I grew up in
the nineteen fifties in a very provincial then

1322
01:43:03.960 --> 01:43:09.479
provincial city, Toronto, Ontario,
and there weren't a lot of options for

1323
01:43:09.560 --> 01:43:13.840
women. You could be a librarian
or a nurse or a teacher, but

1324
01:43:14.239 --> 01:43:17.720
nothing creative, and I just always
wanted to do it. My mother said

1325
01:43:17.760 --> 01:43:24.000
I was irritatingly dedicated, and that
from the age of five I wanted to

1326
01:43:24.039 --> 01:43:28.279
do this to have fun and to
play dress up, because those are pretv

1327
01:43:28.560 --> 01:43:33.199
days and we had to entertain ourselves. And then when I was twelve,

1328
01:43:33.760 --> 01:43:42.359
I joined an organization called the Toronto
Children Players, run by Raymond Massey's sister,

1329
01:43:42.680 --> 01:43:49.680
whose named Dorothy Goulding, and we
gathered in a church basement every Saturday

1330
01:43:49.800 --> 01:43:56.000
for our two and a half hours
and did improvisation and pantomime, and then

1331
01:43:56.079 --> 01:44:00.800
once a year we presented at a
big auditorium in the city. And I

1332
01:44:00.960 --> 01:44:08.399
like the people. They were fun. They was so constrained and so uptight

1333
01:44:08.960 --> 01:44:13.760
in the fifties that this was liberating. If this is what it's all about,

1334
01:44:13.840 --> 01:44:16.640
this is what I wanted to do. My mother was very supportive,

1335
01:44:16.720 --> 01:44:23.800
my father not so much. But
my mother found that there was an apprentice

1336
01:44:24.359 --> 01:44:30.600
scholarship in Niagara on the Lake,
where the Shaw Festival was close to,

1337
01:44:30.720 --> 01:44:38.800
and so I went for six weeks
and got nothing but rent and food and

1338
01:44:39.319 --> 01:44:45.039
swept the floor and ironed the clothes
and did that for six weeks. And

1339
01:44:45.199 --> 01:44:48.840
again it was in Iowa. Louis
Zarig, I don't remember that name.

1340
01:44:49.279 --> 01:44:53.680
We did a lot of movies too, but he played cat on a hot

1341
01:44:53.720 --> 01:45:00.680
tin roof, and about halfway into
the show it did burned, literally burned

1342
01:45:00.760 --> 01:45:06.760
down. So the next year Nate
Goodwin and his wife impended me and somebody

1343
01:45:06.760 --> 01:45:12.199
else to go back again, and
this time they were in Flint, Michigan.

1344
01:45:12.520 --> 01:45:15.439
How that has changed, Oh boya. But we had a wonderful time,

1345
01:45:15.479 --> 01:45:19.680
and they were musicals. And then
I was in my middle teens and

1346
01:45:19.720 --> 01:45:24.279
I would stayed in these actors from
New York. If you had the chance

1347
01:45:24.359 --> 01:45:27.800
to study in London, England,
or in New York, where would you

1348
01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:31.720
go? Oh London, for sure, because it was just a better education

1349
01:45:31.840 --> 01:45:38.520
all around. And so I auditioned
and got into a school and went off

1350
01:45:38.560 --> 01:45:44.079
around seventeen years of age to London
and studied the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art

1351
01:45:44.119 --> 01:45:47.119
and then got into the rep system. And the education was good, but

1352
01:45:47.239 --> 01:45:54.279
what was great was being in that
city of fifteen hundred, two thousand years

1353
01:45:54.600 --> 01:45:58.840
where we could go from fifty cents
to see any opera, any ballet,

1354
01:45:59.000 --> 01:46:02.680
any play, whether it was the
Royal Shakespeare Company, the National hadn't been

1355
01:46:02.720 --> 01:46:09.119
formed yet, so it was a
wonderful place to grow up. So I

1356
01:46:09.159 --> 01:46:13.199
stayed with it. Did I read
that you worked with Donna Michi when you're

1357
01:46:13.239 --> 01:46:18.079
young? I did. He was
charming that at that was at the Flint

1358
01:46:18.600 --> 01:46:27.760
Musical Tent, and I think Flint
was at that point very wealthy white suburb.

1359
01:46:28.399 --> 01:46:36.600
Its employees and executives came from General
Motors so they could afford to support

1360
01:46:38.239 --> 01:46:43.840
fifteen hundred tent. So yes,
Donna Michi, lots of wonderful, interesting

1361
01:46:43.920 --> 01:46:47.119
people. Yeah, So what happened
after you graduate from RATA? I'm a

1362
01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:51.479
Canadian, so I could get into
the repertory system there. So I found

1363
01:46:51.479 --> 01:46:59.319
an agent and I did a weekly
rep for seven months. That's every show

1364
01:46:59.479 --> 01:47:03.319
every other week except for the Christmas
special. And then I did the Northeast

1365
01:47:03.399 --> 01:47:10.079
Shakespeare Festival, which was amazing.
It was a twenty five hundred seat theater

1366
01:47:10.640 --> 01:47:15.079
and the Beatles nobody had ever heard
of. These four kids were jumping around

1367
01:47:15.079 --> 01:47:18.880
on the stage on an off night
when I know it wasn't It was a

1368
01:47:18.920 --> 01:47:24.039
Saturday night and we were in rehearsal. I can't make this up and we

1369
01:47:24.079 --> 01:47:29.119
said. The older people said,
oh rubbish, but there was something fun

1370
01:47:29.159 --> 01:47:34.319
about for us younger members of the
company. And then I was lucky enough

1371
01:47:34.359 --> 01:47:39.600
to get a job in the West
End with Donald Pleasants and Charles Gray for

1372
01:47:39.840 --> 01:47:45.159
Beetles and that ran for six months
in the West End, and then I

1373
01:47:45.199 --> 01:47:48.920
had to go back and forth.
My father was dying of cancer and Donald

1374
01:47:48.920 --> 01:47:55.159
Pleasance was the producer and he said, I will give you a compassionate leave

1375
01:47:55.199 --> 01:47:59.640
of absence for three weeks if you
give me a fortnight two weeks to find

1376
01:47:59.640 --> 01:48:02.560
a placement, and when you come
back, you have a job. Can

1377
01:48:02.640 --> 01:48:09.600
you imagine anybody saying that in this
country. No, no, so I

1378
01:48:09.680 --> 01:48:12.560
did. He actually gave me a
month. I stake for a month,

1379
01:48:12.760 --> 01:48:15.760
basically said goodbye to my father,
went back, came back into the company

1380
01:48:16.039 --> 01:48:20.520
and we continued for another few months. And then it was bouncing back and

1381
01:48:20.560 --> 01:48:27.000
forth and then starting to work in
television, which was considered they looked on

1382
01:48:27.119 --> 01:48:31.800
their nose as you're doing television.
That was in the sixties. And then

1383
01:48:31.840 --> 01:48:38.119
I came back to Canada and got
a lot of work at the Canadian brought

1384
01:48:38.279 --> 01:48:44.720
scorporation. In those days, they
were doing classics, so I did Shakespeare

1385
01:48:44.960 --> 01:48:51.520
and all kinds of different plays,
during which I was discovered quote unquote by

1386
01:48:51.560 --> 01:48:57.720
Eleanor Kilgallen at Universal Studios, and
so that was a back and forth,

1387
01:48:58.079 --> 01:49:02.760
and then I ended up in Hollywood, never unpacked a bag, always had

1388
01:49:02.760 --> 01:49:06.279
my passport ready because I didn't think
it was going to last. And here

1389
01:49:06.279 --> 01:49:12.920
we are sixty years later. I'm
still here and loving Los Angeles, especially

1390
01:49:12.920 --> 01:49:15.520
now that I'm not in the business
sights. It's a wonderful city, really

1391
01:49:15.600 --> 01:49:19.039
quite extraordinary. Once you got to
Hollywood. What were someone really rolls like

1392
01:49:19.119 --> 01:49:24.119
for you? I Pink Madigan was
one of the first with Henry Fonda,

1393
01:49:24.199 --> 01:49:28.800
who was just a prince. What
a lovely man, wonderful man. And

1394
01:49:29.079 --> 01:49:34.600
I later in the late seventies and
ten years later I did another movie with

1395
01:49:34.680 --> 01:49:41.119
him in Montreal City on Fire,
which what's interesting, but he was always

1396
01:49:41.199 --> 01:49:44.880
charming and he and his then wife
took me out for dinner in New York

1397
01:49:44.920 --> 01:49:48.479
and I was really tongue tied for
a while. Don SEAgel did both Madigan

1398
01:49:48.520 --> 01:49:54.000
and Coovid's Block Yeah, which is
another location in New York, which is

1399
01:49:54.199 --> 01:49:59.359
great fun, great fun in the
late sixties was all under all this energy

1400
01:49:59.439 --> 01:50:03.840
coming in from the young people and
lots of change in and it was good.

1401
01:50:04.560 --> 01:50:10.039
Don't single didn't like actors. He
only liked movie stars because actors asked

1402
01:50:10.079 --> 01:50:15.279
too many questions. Henry Vonda was
both a theater actor and a film actor,

1403
01:50:15.439 --> 01:50:18.720
big star, and he just would
give me a wink and say come

1404
01:50:18.760 --> 01:50:24.920
and let's have a coffee, and
he would answer questions and Lend Eastwood really

1405
01:50:25.039 --> 01:50:30.640
understood what movies were about. And
he kept saying to the seagull, I

1406
01:50:30.680 --> 01:50:32.800
don't really need to say this.
Why didn't she say it? Oh,

1407
01:50:32.840 --> 01:50:35.840
I don't need to And I thought, why is he giving away all the

1408
01:50:35.920 --> 01:50:41.279
style of because the camera was on
him and he was just listening. So

1409
01:50:41.399 --> 01:50:45.760
he was very interesting. It was
a great shoot. I remember going to

1410
01:50:45.800 --> 01:50:49.520
the Cloisters and standing on the top
of the t W Way building for the

1411
01:50:49.600 --> 01:50:54.439
final shot coming up. It was
a great time to be in New York

1412
01:50:54.479 --> 01:51:00.600
and working and we stayed in a
fabuinous luxury hotel and Clint knew everybody from

1413
01:51:00.640 --> 01:51:06.079
the series Raw Hide. I met
Ray Charles. It was really fun and

1414
01:51:06.199 --> 01:51:11.039
it was a good film. I
think it was a good film. Don

1415
01:51:11.159 --> 01:51:15.399
Stroud and I were both under contract, and as was the young woman whose

1416
01:51:15.479 --> 01:51:19.359
name I don't remember because I think
she left the business shortly after. But

1417
01:51:19.479 --> 01:51:24.560
the three of us would like stare
at each other and saying, oh my

1418
01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:31.560
god, this food is fantastic.
Whoa hey, three young kids just having

1419
01:51:31.560 --> 01:51:35.920
a ball with all this time and
energy and money and all of that coming

1420
01:51:35.960 --> 01:51:39.760
in. So it was fun.
It was good. You were in one

1421
01:51:39.800 --> 01:51:44.920
that is just a bizarre film,
Skullduggery. What were your memories of her?

1422
01:51:45.000 --> 01:51:49.479
Kid bad? My memories of all
these movies that I'm looking at in

1423
01:51:49.520 --> 01:51:57.760
your list are the place is another
character. So the place for Skullduggery was

1424
01:51:57.920 --> 01:52:02.840
Jamaica, beautiful and beautiful. They
had just become independent from Britain. We

1425
01:52:03.000 --> 01:52:08.159
walked into a civil war. There
was the blue stripes and the red stripes,

1426
01:52:08.199 --> 01:52:14.159
and we went through three directors.
It was very difficult, so I'm

1427
01:52:14.199 --> 01:52:18.439
not sure nobody really understood it.
I was under contract still, and I

1428
01:52:18.640 --> 01:52:26.560
did I think, four different voiceover
narrations to try and explain what was going

1429
01:52:26.640 --> 01:52:30.880
on, which even I didn't understand. And I was there. Bert Relolds

1430
01:52:30.079 --> 01:52:33.960
was a pretty good director. He
had to take over because we were spending

1431
01:52:33.960 --> 01:52:39.760
I don't know how many thousands a
day waiting for the studio to send the

1432
01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:45.359
next director. We had lovely young
people from Indonesia who played the trophies,

1433
01:52:45.560 --> 01:52:51.239
the monkeys in these absurd suits and
this heat, and they were lovely.

1434
01:52:51.439 --> 01:52:57.239
But there was a lot of financial
shenanigans behind the scenes. It was a

1435
01:52:57.319 --> 01:53:01.520
mess. But on camera, Edward
Fox and I stayed friends for a long

1436
01:53:01.560 --> 01:53:08.439
time. Hans Gude August became a
big soap star and never really saw it

1437
01:53:08.520 --> 01:53:12.520
much of him later, and it
was fun. That island itself is so

1438
01:53:12.600 --> 01:53:17.159
beautiful. Remember going to location and
seeing a sign at six o'clock in the

1439
01:53:17.199 --> 01:53:23.039
morning as we drove up into the
Blue Mountains, you are now entering Martha

1440
01:53:23.119 --> 01:53:28.359
Bray, who says, entering Martha
Bray, who was at Martha Break But

1441
01:53:28.479 --> 01:53:32.920
it was a famous Jamaican who held
the line against the British. And it

1442
01:53:33.000 --> 01:53:39.720
was a very political time in the
United States. The Vietnam War was going

1443
01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:44.520
on. It was tense. It
was tense because of people stealing money from

1444
01:53:44.520 --> 01:53:49.920
the show. The directors were replaced
for I have no idea why so the

1445
01:53:50.000 --> 01:53:57.920
solid part of it was the story, which this one time producer really loved.

1446
01:53:58.399 --> 01:54:03.439
It was a French novel called These
Animal Pinitive and it was an interesting

1447
01:54:03.640 --> 01:54:10.800
thing. But the script didn't work. Sometimes changing from a novel or a

1448
01:54:10.800 --> 01:54:15.800
short story or whatever to a script
to a film just dies. Somehow it's

1449
01:54:15.880 --> 01:54:21.520
lost in the translation of one modality
to the next. So it didn't work.

1450
01:54:23.039 --> 01:54:26.640
But it was Yeah, it was
nice. Memories. My memories happy

1451
01:54:26.680 --> 01:54:31.239
memories were of Jamaica and Bob Marley. Hello. There was Bob Marley seeing

1452
01:54:31.319 --> 01:54:35.960
a little club in the town that
we were all billeted in. So that

1453
01:54:36.119 --> 01:54:40.720
was fun. Get Ray Charles on
one movie and Bob Marley on the next.

1454
01:54:41.199 --> 01:54:45.600
Yes, a little bit in between. But please tell me that Forben,

1455
01:54:45.640 --> 01:54:50.079
the Colossus project was not the mess
that sculptor gery was. Though it

1456
01:54:50.199 --> 01:54:55.800
wasn't. It was very organized.
It was very boring to do because they

1457
01:54:55.880 --> 01:55:01.239
had tape doing the machines the Colossus. The actors had to wait until all

1458
01:55:01.279 --> 01:55:06.199
its technology at very early times,
and so all of this technology had to

1459
01:55:06.279 --> 01:55:11.319
fit hand and glove, and of
course it didn't. So we were lucky

1460
01:55:11.359 --> 01:55:14.399
to get I don't know, three
four minutes a day, but most of

1461
01:55:14.479 --> 01:55:16.600
us were under contract or had a
deal with the studio, so they didn't

1462
01:55:16.600 --> 01:55:21.000
seem to mind that it was costing
a fortune. But again I was not

1463
01:55:21.119 --> 01:55:29.560
the right generation to appreciate what was
coming with internet and computers. One funny

1464
01:55:29.680 --> 01:55:34.600
aside was that about a year later
or two, I was in Seattle at

1465
01:55:34.600 --> 01:55:40.760
the Seattle rep playing Lady Macbeth in
a wonderful production. And we had to

1466
01:55:40.800 --> 01:55:44.840
do to get the money from the
government, state and federal, you had

1467
01:55:44.880 --> 01:55:49.079
to do three shows for kids,
teenagers, high school, and of course

1468
01:55:49.079 --> 01:55:53.760
it had to be at nine o'clock
in the morning. And I had no

1469
01:55:53.880 --> 01:55:59.079
idea that they would I didn't quite
understand. They were restless and whispering and

1470
01:55:59.119 --> 01:56:01.960
all that when we were doing Michelle. But there would be like eighteen young

1471
01:56:02.039 --> 01:56:05.079
people standing at the stage store,
and I thought, that's weird. They

1472
01:56:05.119 --> 01:56:09.439
didn't want to talk about Macbeth.
They wanted to talk about Colossus, the

1473
01:56:09.479 --> 01:56:13.239
Forbin project, and they wanted to
know how we did it, and what

1474
01:56:13.399 --> 01:56:16.239
the computers and where we eat in
the Lawrence Livermore Lab. Yes we were,

1475
01:56:16.520 --> 01:56:19.479
and we have to take our clothes
off, Yes we did, and

1476
01:56:19.520 --> 01:56:25.600
what was as machine like? It
was great, So it was interesting I

1477
01:56:25.640 --> 01:56:30.079
don't think we got it really why
it was so popular and it's now I

1478
01:56:30.119 --> 01:56:34.359
guess, become a cult film.
I do know was there ever any talk

1479
01:56:34.399 --> 01:56:36.880
of a sequel to that? Because
I know there were three books and you

1480
01:56:38.000 --> 01:56:41.640
just made the first one. I
don't remember. I don't think it made

1481
01:56:41.760 --> 01:56:46.039
enough money like or it to really
flow into a series. And maybe it

1482
01:56:46.079 --> 01:56:49.800
was ahead of its tone, very
much ahead of its time. They said,

1483
01:56:49.800 --> 01:56:53.119
oh, I didn't make any money. So then we went to Airport

1484
01:56:53.199 --> 01:56:59.479
seventy five, total opposite direction that
was universal in those days. Well,

1485
01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:01.680
speaking of universal, do you men
have to ask you about your Colombo experience?

1486
01:57:02.079 --> 01:57:05.560
Oh? I loved it. I
loved it. Oh good, because

1487
01:57:05.600 --> 01:57:09.920
I had heard that Peter Falk has
been a little difficult at that time.

1488
01:57:10.239 --> 01:57:14.439
He was very difficult, but he
wasn't never difficult with actors. He was

1489
01:57:14.479 --> 01:57:17.359
difficult with what is called you know
what the Black Tower was. Peter was

1490
01:57:17.439 --> 01:57:24.000
great and he said, you really
want to say this ship? I said,

1491
01:57:24.359 --> 01:57:26.880
jer shoe, what do you want
to say? He said, let's

1492
01:57:26.880 --> 01:57:29.399
just figure out what we want to
do. When do we have And then

1493
01:57:29.439 --> 01:57:32.479
he'd look up at Norman Loyd,
who was directing wonderful became a lifelong friend.

1494
01:57:32.520 --> 01:57:35.399
He just died at one hundred and
six a year ago. It's a

1495
01:57:35.600 --> 01:57:40.279
Norman's he what do we have to
do? Whatever you want, dear boy,

1496
01:57:40.479 --> 01:57:43.199
whatever you want, he said,
We're going to go for a walk.

1497
01:57:43.479 --> 01:57:46.560
So it's Mutton Jeff here we are
walking around and he said, okay,

1498
01:57:46.840 --> 01:57:50.279
as I think, and we had
our scene in front of us.

1499
01:57:50.399 --> 01:57:54.520
This is the what's important. The
rest of it's just I said, Okay,

1500
01:57:54.560 --> 01:57:57.199
what do you want to do?
I said, He said, let's

1501
01:57:57.239 --> 01:58:00.800
try this, and we improvised.
He was all good and all of that,

1502
01:58:01.359 --> 01:58:04.560
and it was a lot of fun. That part was fun. Peter

1503
01:58:04.720 --> 01:58:12.279
did apologize one day. He said, the Black Tower executives at Universal promised

1504
01:58:12.399 --> 01:58:16.439
that I could direct five episodes,
and now they're rerenegging. So he said,

1505
01:58:16.479 --> 01:58:19.960
I want to take a walk.
Do you mind if I take a

1506
01:58:20.000 --> 01:58:23.600
walk today and you do your close
ups on your own? I said,

1507
01:58:23.600 --> 01:58:28.319
no, I'm fine with that.
Stand up to yourself. Absolutely. Years

1508
01:58:28.359 --> 01:58:32.960
before, I did a movie called
Beldez Is Coming with Burt Lancaster and Spain

1509
01:58:33.479 --> 01:58:39.960
and we were sitting in the mountains
outside the famed city of Avila as in

1510
01:58:40.159 --> 01:58:45.920
Teresa, and he said, and
He was a very tense, difficult person.

1511
01:58:45.399 --> 01:58:50.880
He didn't chat up Bert he was, but he said come here,

1512
01:58:51.000 --> 01:58:55.439
sit down, okay, all right? So I sat and we were looking

1513
01:58:55.439 --> 01:59:00.800
at this beautiful vista over the mountains
early in the morning, and he said,

1514
01:59:00.319 --> 01:59:03.600
just want to tell you, don't
let the bastards grind you down.

1515
01:59:04.159 --> 01:59:10.159
And I said, you mean the
studio. Yeah. So I got a

1516
01:59:10.279 --> 01:59:18.479
lot of backgrounds from Wander Lancaster,
Richard Widmark. These men, not so

1517
01:59:18.600 --> 01:59:24.720
much the women. They didn't seem
to They weren't considered to be important enough

1518
01:59:24.840 --> 01:59:28.800
to beat last long. There was
this quick turnover because it was a very

1519
01:59:28.840 --> 01:59:34.279
male dominated business. Thank god it
isn't any more. That led into the

1520
01:59:34.439 --> 01:59:40.560
next one, which is Night Loves, which was Arthur Pennon, amazing director

1521
01:59:41.399 --> 01:59:49.479
and Gene Hackman again difficult, hurt
by the business here and manipulated and all

1522
01:59:49.520 --> 01:59:55.319
of that. The Harvey Weinstein's existed
in those days. But I was protected

1523
01:59:55.840 --> 01:59:59.720
from all of a lot of the
most of that by having two women as

1524
02:00:00.079 --> 02:00:04.159
my bosses. It was Eleanor Kilgallen
in New York and Minique James on the

1525
02:00:04.199 --> 02:00:09.319
West Coast. And when it occurred, depending on the time of day,

1526
02:00:09.760 --> 02:00:15.239
I would call collect California and they
would put me through and I would tell

1527
02:00:15.399 --> 02:00:17.760
Minique what was going on. She
said, not to worry, dear,

1528
02:00:18.119 --> 02:00:21.439
just go and have a nice meal. The next day, that person was

1529
02:00:21.520 --> 02:00:29.079
gone absent, But many of my
contemporaries were not so lucky. They've been

1530
02:00:29.159 --> 02:00:32.880
hired by other people. But Night
Moves, Arthur Penn was great with women.

1531
02:00:33.039 --> 02:00:40.000
He was a wonderful director, and
I like the script. I remember

1532
02:00:40.119 --> 02:00:45.000
that Shirley Bernstein was my manager at
that point, and she sent me from

1533
02:00:45.039 --> 02:00:47.840
I was doing a play at the
Williamstown Theater Festival, and she said,

1534
02:00:47.840 --> 02:00:50.600
you're going to have to drive to
meet Arthur Penn. He'll see you.

1535
02:00:50.680 --> 02:00:55.600
So I got into this car on
my day off and drove I don't know

1536
02:00:55.640 --> 02:01:00.199
where through the Berkshires and found Arthur
pan And he didn't ever ask people to

1537
02:01:00.279 --> 02:01:05.640
read. He just wanted to talk
great and so I enjoyed that too.

1538
02:01:06.119 --> 02:01:11.560
That was I didn't get to go
on. Most of my work was either

1539
02:01:12.079 --> 02:01:17.239
the airport or once the sound stage. But he was a theater and film

1540
02:01:17.279 --> 02:01:23.960
director, and he rehearsed with the
whole cast for two weeks, including Melanie

1541
02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:27.640
Griffith, who was I don't know, fifteen or something. I was lucky

1542
02:01:27.760 --> 02:01:32.199
enough to be to learn the classics
at the Royal Academy, and then also

1543
02:01:32.319 --> 02:01:40.319
lucky enough from about seventy to work
with Stella Adler in Los Angeles, who

1544
02:01:41.000 --> 02:01:45.439
famously said to me, I'm going
to break your English jaw, meaning that

1545
02:01:45.520 --> 02:01:51.039
it's not in the words, it's
in the intention. So what a movie

1546
02:01:51.560 --> 02:01:57.279
is not You can say, don't
forget the milk, or I like cream

1547
02:01:57.359 --> 02:02:01.920
cheese with my potato. It doesn't
mean anything thing until you understand beneath it,

1548
02:02:01.960 --> 02:02:06.840
what's the intention? Where is this
going? So she was able to,

1549
02:02:08.800 --> 02:02:13.479
with exercises and going once or twice
a week, two classes when she

1550
02:02:13.640 --> 02:02:16.359
was out she'd be out maybe three
four months in the summer, understand what

1551
02:02:16.399 --> 02:02:20.439
that meant. So I looked around
and I thought, there are a lot

1552
02:02:20.479 --> 02:02:26.720
of women who are conflicted, who
are in terrible marriages, who want to

1553
02:02:26.760 --> 02:02:30.600
have kids, are they want to
have a career, and their husbands are

1554
02:02:30.640 --> 02:02:38.319
wandering or messed up or whatever.
So it was easy to just watch and

1555
02:02:38.399 --> 02:02:43.359
read. It was all in mis
magazine, and all those women's the good

1556
02:02:43.359 --> 02:02:46.479
ones, not the ones that are
selling ads for makeup and facelifts, but

1557
02:02:46.800 --> 02:02:53.359
the other really good writing was happening, So that's I think that was how

1558
02:02:53.479 --> 02:02:57.720
it was fun. Also, Jean
had been a theater actor, so he

1559
02:02:57.960 --> 02:03:03.079
also liked to improvise, and Arthur
wanted us to take the script and play

1560
02:03:03.079 --> 02:03:06.840
with it. So when we did
the big fight in the kitchen, I

1561
02:03:06.920 --> 02:03:13.399
reached up and smacked all the pots, made a horrendous noise and got a

1562
02:03:13.439 --> 02:03:16.720
great reaction from Markman, and he
later said, I wanted to do that.

1563
02:03:16.800 --> 02:03:20.119
You beat me to it. I
liked that. I went to New

1564
02:03:20.199 --> 02:03:25.119
York, I met Ded Allen,
the editor. I watched her cut in

1565
02:03:25.159 --> 02:03:30.840
the old fashioned way, actual film. I went to observer Arthur teaching a

1566
02:03:30.920 --> 02:03:36.039
class at the Actor Studio. These
were fun days. A couple of the

1567
02:03:36.079 --> 02:03:44.079
other things you wrote to philm the
two films North Avenue are Regulars and The

1568
02:03:44.079 --> 02:03:50.680
Apple Dumpling Gang. That was like
connecting the dots. Disney was so structured,

1569
02:03:51.079 --> 02:03:56.199
and the director he actually had a
board and this is in the middle

1570
02:03:56.239 --> 02:04:00.159
seventies, late seventies for the second
one, he know, you actually moved

1571
02:04:00.279 --> 02:04:05.239
here and that line and over here
you look what. Yes. I also

1572
02:04:05.319 --> 02:04:11.119
had a really good company of actors
who just told me said yes, and

1573
02:04:11.199 --> 02:04:15.560
ignored and went on it did whatever
they wanted to do. But he framed

1574
02:04:15.560 --> 02:04:18.680
his shot and he knew what it
was. It was like working with a

1575
02:04:18.720 --> 02:04:23.560
computer. But I don't think they
do that anymore. I think that was

1576
02:04:23.640 --> 02:04:30.399
then North Avenue of Regulars, all
those crazy women of Cloris Leachman used to

1577
02:04:30.680 --> 02:04:33.720
tell everybody that she was a vegetarian
at that point, bless her soul.

1578
02:04:34.239 --> 02:04:38.760
And she would go around and she'd
say, do you know what you're putting

1579
02:04:38.800 --> 02:04:43.600
in your body? All that meat, all that fat, It's disgusting.

1580
02:04:44.079 --> 02:04:47.399
Then she decided to go and lock
herself in her trailer, and mister Disney

1581
02:04:47.479 --> 02:04:50.800
himself had to come down and persuade
her that the showmen to go on.

1582
02:04:51.279 --> 02:04:56.119
And the crew was so mad,
and the director was so pissed off that

1583
02:04:56.920 --> 02:05:00.359
just said thank you, Claris,
just so were there till we're ready.

1584
02:05:00.680 --> 02:05:04.439
So that night we were working late. It was a night shot, and

1585
02:05:04.520 --> 02:05:08.880
in those days you just didn't think
about it. You drove to the studio

1586
02:05:09.079 --> 02:05:13.319
at midnight and you bartchigar and new
shot all night. And I was coming

1587
02:05:13.359 --> 02:05:18.800
back in a break and I see
Chlorus coming with a huge container of soup

1588
02:05:19.279 --> 02:05:24.079
that was obviously full of meat,
and I said, whoa are you working

1589
02:05:24.119 --> 02:05:29.000
tonight? Oh no, I'm just
bringing a little apology to the crew.

1590
02:05:29.640 --> 02:05:33.640
Karen Valentine was a sweetheart. She
was lovely. All of those women were

1591
02:05:33.720 --> 02:05:40.159
fun. That was fun. I
spoke with Bruce Bilson and Edward Herman a

1592
02:05:40.159 --> 02:05:44.159
few years ago. Hobby said,
before mister Hermann passed and nobody really has

1593
02:05:44.199 --> 02:05:49.560
anything good to say about Corse Light. It was horrendous. I think some

1594
02:05:49.680 --> 02:05:54.199
of these guys, I think Hermann
one. I think he was married.

1595
02:05:54.600 --> 02:05:58.359
I think he wanted he had a
family. Hello, it's a job,

1596
02:05:58.800 --> 02:06:04.159
it's not a religion. So for
somebody to every day be late with set

1597
02:06:04.600 --> 02:06:09.800
and we're all standing around, or
have a problem with the food, or

1598
02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:15.319
have a problem with some there was
always a problem. And I understand.

1599
02:06:15.479 --> 02:06:18.760
She was the mother of eight kids, and I have such respect for her

1600
02:06:19.319 --> 02:06:24.880
talent, amazing talent, and I
think she's bored. So when she got

1601
02:06:24.880 --> 02:06:28.399
bored, she just misbehaved. The
rest of us just went home to our

1602
02:06:28.439 --> 02:06:32.800
partners with babe. Was that the
first time that you met Alex Carris?

1603
02:06:33.199 --> 02:06:39.920
Yep, Yeah, buzz Culiko is
the director hired me six months before and

1604
02:06:40.520 --> 02:06:48.000
persuade at MGM to have me train
in hurdling and running and throwing the javelin

1605
02:06:48.479 --> 02:06:54.359
and golf. So I had been
working out for six months with a wonderful

1606
02:06:54.479 --> 02:06:59.840
young man who was on the tour
golf tour, Mickey Shoulder, and I

1607
02:07:00.119 --> 02:07:03.279
had fun and Buzz said, you
have to come and meet Alex Carris.

1608
02:07:03.479 --> 02:07:08.520
In fact, you have to come
an audition. It's Sunday's Day before Valentine's

1609
02:07:08.600 --> 02:07:14.000
Day. And so we went to
CBS in Los Angeles and there were three

1610
02:07:14.039 --> 02:07:17.079
guys and they were all big and
football players. But Alex was the one

1611
02:07:17.119 --> 02:07:20.520
who made up his own dialogue.
He didn't like the dialogue, so he

1612
02:07:20.560 --> 02:07:24.920
made it up and when I tried
to respond, he just put his hand

1613
02:07:24.960 --> 02:07:30.600
in front of my face and said, Smith, I don't know. And

1614
02:07:30.239 --> 02:07:35.520
that was a little kind of strange. But apparently what Buzz and the other

1615
02:07:35.760 --> 02:07:42.159
the producers and the writer saw a
chemistry that I didn't particularly see at that

1616
02:07:42.199 --> 02:07:48.000
poet. But then Alex would sneak
over to the golf Force nine whole golf

1617
02:07:48.079 --> 02:07:54.640
course in Studio City, Weddington,
the Weddington Golf and Mickey would say,

1618
02:07:54.720 --> 02:08:00.479
oh, that actor's there again.
He's hiding in the bushes and come he

1619
02:08:00.760 --> 02:08:05.079
is. He wanted to make sure
that his big moment in television was not

1620
02:08:05.159 --> 02:08:09.520
going to be messed up by some
woman who did not know how to do

1621
02:08:09.600 --> 02:08:13.680
anything as far as athlete lads were
concerned. And Mickey doubled me in all

1622
02:08:13.680 --> 02:08:20.279
the great lull golf shots. Oh
he was teased mercilessly to put on the

1623
02:08:20.319 --> 02:08:24.399
wig and the dress, and oh
it was really funny. But he was

1624
02:08:24.439 --> 02:08:28.560
a good egg. Lots of fun. But it changed my life because that

1625
02:08:30.199 --> 02:08:35.000
we started living together about eight months
later and had a child and got married

1626
02:08:35.079 --> 02:08:41.279
and I had thirty seven years of
a wonderful relationship. So Babe is probably

1627
02:08:41.760 --> 02:08:48.760
my favorite. Buzz Kulick. He
just had a knack with actors, and

1628
02:08:48.960 --> 02:08:54.000
that is the sign of a director, somebody who listens, who doesn't talk

1629
02:08:54.079 --> 02:09:01.119
a lot, whom doesn't push around
or redetermined where everything there's another guy that

1630
02:09:01.279 --> 02:09:05.159
wanted to rehearse. And so Alex
and I and maybe three or four other

1631
02:09:05.159 --> 02:09:09.840
actors would go to his house,
to Buzz Kulick's house and sit around the

1632
02:09:09.880 --> 02:09:13.279
dining table and his wife and service
coffee in Danish or whatever, and we

1633
02:09:13.319 --> 02:09:18.079
would just keep reading and reading,
and the screenwriter was there and she would

1634
02:09:18.159 --> 02:09:24.079
change stuff. It's a work in
progress always, and so when somebody sets

1635
02:09:24.079 --> 02:09:28.560
it installed and it makes it very
hard. It's a dialogue going back and

1636
02:09:28.640 --> 02:09:33.319
forth with the director and the writer
and the other actors, and then in

1637
02:09:33.359 --> 02:09:37.039
the theater it's a dialogue with the
audience. There. You don't improvise,

1638
02:09:37.199 --> 02:09:43.359
you do not change anything that's written
in stone. But how you do it

1639
02:09:43.399 --> 02:09:48.039
is not where the pauses are.
That's not an issue. So the directors

1640
02:09:48.159 --> 02:09:54.039
that really came from theater, came
from New York, had done early television

1641
02:09:54.119 --> 02:09:58.680
where it was all theater people.
They had a much better time. When

1642
02:09:58.800 --> 02:10:03.640
was the first time you met Bob
Clark? He wanted me for a movie

1643
02:10:03.880 --> 02:10:07.800
I think at Warner Brothers and Warder
Brunners wouldn't accept me, and I was

1644
02:10:07.920 --> 02:10:13.439
devastated. Oh my god. I
know our manager. We had a business

1645
02:10:13.520 --> 02:10:18.520
manager that we shared and it was
this guy that introduced the two of us.

1646
02:10:18.600 --> 02:10:22.399
And he'd just done a movie in
Toronto, so that's where I'm from,

1647
02:10:22.479 --> 02:10:26.520
and so we had lots to share
about that, and he said,

1648
02:10:26.520 --> 02:10:30.239
don't worry. I know it's very
hurtful and all of that, but we're

1649
02:10:30.279 --> 02:10:33.760
going to work together. So the
first thing we did, murdered by Dequipitis

1650
02:10:33.760 --> 02:10:41.840
had a lot of other names to
but he was great. And then I

1651
02:10:41.920 --> 02:10:45.520
did Poor Kies later and he said, I'm the only director at Hollywood that

1652
02:10:45.640 --> 02:10:50.079
keeps casting you as a hooker.
So murder by decree. Oh my god,

1653
02:10:50.680 --> 02:10:56.159
James Mason, I just was thumbstruck. He's one of my favorite actors

1654
02:10:56.279 --> 02:11:01.119
ever. That voice is like velvet. Christopher Plumber was naughty. We would

1655
02:11:01.119 --> 02:11:05.800
be shooting at night in Southolk,
which is on the other side of the

1656
02:11:05.880 --> 02:11:09.159
river and dark, and he'd goose
me, just just try and get a

1657
02:11:09.239 --> 02:11:13.039
reaction. We had to have the
middle of the week off. I remember

1658
02:11:13.079 --> 02:11:18.800
we shot Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday Monday and had two cy Wednesday

1659
02:11:18.840 --> 02:11:22.600
as the weekend. So again I'd
been to school, I had friends there,

1660
02:11:24.239 --> 02:11:28.159
I got to see theater. It
was a magical job. And we

1661
02:11:28.239 --> 02:11:33.319
stayed at the annex of the hotel, so we had little apartments. It

1662
02:11:33.399 --> 02:11:37.439
was great. I loved it.
We were in London. I cannot remember

1663
02:11:37.479 --> 02:11:41.000
the name of the hotel. If
I could, you would recognize it immediately.

1664
02:11:41.199 --> 02:11:46.000
We were in the West End,
in Annex, which is a little

1665
02:11:46.119 --> 02:11:54.239
part on Albemarle Street and everything was
there, Green Park and the West End

1666
02:11:54.560 --> 02:12:00.199
and fantastic restaurants, and we could
walk to work some days and then other

1667
02:12:00.239 --> 02:12:03.079
days we were picked up. Yeah, so it was no. We didn't

1668
02:12:03.119 --> 02:12:09.720
do anything in Murder by Decree in
Toronto. It was all shot in London.

1669
02:12:11.039 --> 02:12:15.920
There was another actress, Genevie Bougeau. Yes, she was lovely.

1670
02:12:16.359 --> 02:12:20.039
We went to we went to rock
concerts. It was fun. I don't

1671
02:12:20.039 --> 02:12:24.640
think films today are fun. I
think everybody wants too much money up front.

1672
02:12:26.199 --> 02:12:30.880
Maybe I don't know. It was
a company of actors and I forget

1673
02:12:30.960 --> 02:12:37.319
which with it told them they built
the Thames and James Mason has come by

1674
02:12:37.439 --> 02:12:41.159
on his way from the makeup room. Have they thrown you in the drink

1675
02:12:41.279 --> 02:12:43.560
yet? Dude, No they haven't, No, not yet. It was

1676
02:12:43.920 --> 02:12:50.079
everybody. Frank Finnay was on his
way to becoming a major theater actor and

1677
02:12:50.239 --> 02:12:54.720
did a lot of film as well. But no, it was again being

1678
02:12:54.960 --> 02:13:01.239
in those places and when Jack the
Ripper was running around killing all these people,

1679
02:13:01.359 --> 02:13:05.359
which of course it wasn't. It
was the head of the Mason's,

1680
02:13:05.399 --> 02:13:11.720
the Masonic Order, and they were
looking for the child out up wedlock with

1681
02:13:11.840 --> 02:13:16.319
an Irish Catholic girl and they wanted
her dead. So it was a lot

1682
02:13:16.359 --> 02:13:22.640
of offscreen violence, but interesting,
very good play, very good script,

1683
02:13:24.079 --> 02:13:26.560
and lots of fun to do.
Yeah, the cast is phenomenal. I

1684
02:13:26.600 --> 02:13:30.840
couldn't believe when the cast list comes
up, and just and David Hemmings,

1685
02:13:30.840 --> 02:13:35.039
a and Donald it's just so many
people. John Gilgood another. All of

1686
02:13:35.039 --> 02:13:41.199
these actors were huge for me because
I'd gone to school and they were at

1687
02:13:41.399 --> 02:13:46.399
top of their game twenty years before. And also it was a very good

1688
02:13:46.399 --> 02:13:52.000
script. I later did a television
show with that same playwright and it was

1689
02:13:52.079 --> 02:13:56.279
fun. Good writer. What was
mister Clark like to work with? Oh,

1690
02:13:56.319 --> 02:14:00.439
he was great, he was great. He said, what do you

1691
02:14:00.439 --> 02:14:03.920
want to do? He had to
be a little stricter because it was nice,

1692
02:14:03.439 --> 02:14:07.560
dangerous on that part of London,
on the other side of the Thames,

1693
02:14:07.640 --> 02:14:09.760
but he'd say, whatever you want
to do, let's try it.

1694
02:14:11.159 --> 02:14:13.239
Just come prepared to do it so
we don't waste a lot of time.

1695
02:14:13.640 --> 02:14:18.439
And that's fair enough. That's the
actor having to do their own homework.

1696
02:14:18.960 --> 02:14:24.640
So then the parties was later and
that was great fun. That was again

1697
02:14:24.840 --> 02:14:28.159
mostly at night and It was in
the jungles of Florida. But it was

1698
02:14:28.239 --> 02:14:33.560
great fun. He liked actors,
He had a good time. That's so

1699
02:14:33.600 --> 02:14:39.399
important, I think for the director
to be enjoying himself as opposed to feeling

1700
02:14:39.439 --> 02:14:43.720
this heavy weight on their shoulders of
having to do X number of pages or

1701
02:14:45.039 --> 02:14:48.199
x number of takes, or reverse
this and over the shoulder this, and

1702
02:14:48.760 --> 02:14:54.680
it doesn't work. It just burns
everybody out. I think you mentioned Babs

1703
02:14:54.720 --> 02:14:56.720
being one of your favorite roles.
I'm curious what other roles you really enjoyed

1704
02:14:56.760 --> 02:15:03.319
doing over the years. I'd like
to and Amelia Earhart, that was fun.

1705
02:15:03.560 --> 02:15:09.000
I liked doing. It. Was
an interesting movie called The Choice,

1706
02:15:09.600 --> 02:15:13.199
and it was about abortion. And
as we were shooting it in Los Angeles,

1707
02:15:13.600 --> 02:15:20.079
Ronald Reagan was elected and of course
that was Approach, not pro choice

1708
02:15:20.640 --> 02:15:26.960
constituency that elected him. And this
director was David Greene, wonderful television director,

1709
02:15:26.279 --> 02:15:31.199
who said, we better bloody finished
this quickly because it'sn't gred to be

1710
02:15:31.279 --> 02:15:35.840
on the air. So yeah,
that was interesting. It It doesn't say

1711
02:15:35.920 --> 02:15:41.399
one way or the other, but
I think it wouldn't be done today because

1712
02:15:41.439 --> 02:15:46.399
it showed the clinics where they dissuaded
women if they could not determinate a pregnancy.

1713
02:15:46.840 --> 02:15:52.520
Not anything that anybody ever wants to
do, but sometimes have to for

1714
02:15:52.960 --> 02:15:56.720
a lot of religion and guilt.
That was one thing I've always appreciated you

1715
02:15:58.399 --> 02:16:01.520
as an actress and as a woman, and as you always seem to be

1716
02:16:01.680 --> 02:16:05.640
conscious of those roles, even just
the way that you wore your hair throughout

1717
02:16:05.640 --> 02:16:09.560
the years, and just like you've
seemed to be making a statement with that.

1718
02:16:09.720 --> 02:16:13.159
You seemed like a very powerful character. Whether you were in Webster or

1719
02:16:13.159 --> 02:16:18.159
wherever, you always seem to have
like your shit together. Thank you.

1720
02:16:18.319 --> 02:16:22.039
That's a lovely compliment. Thank you. I think that's the Stella Addler.

1721
02:16:22.560 --> 02:16:26.359
She would say, don't come in
complaining. If you need therapy, God

1722
02:16:26.399 --> 02:16:31.800
to a therapist. Your job is
to find the history, the social aspect,

1723
02:16:31.360 --> 02:16:35.799
what's going on in the country or
city or wherever you are. You

1724
02:16:35.920 --> 02:16:39.879
have to be part of this whole
or you have nothing really to contribute,

1725
02:16:41.239 --> 02:16:45.360
You're just saying lines. So that
was fun. That was fun. I

1726
02:16:45.440 --> 02:16:50.600
remember spending time in jail when we
did The Midnight Man in with Burt Lancaster

1727
02:16:50.719 --> 02:16:56.079
again in South Carolina. That was
a weird place in the seventies, but

1728
02:16:56.639 --> 02:17:01.360
it was my first real time in
the South, and it was terrifunny.

1729
02:17:01.799 --> 02:17:07.440
They had cells from the nineteenth century
where no average person could stand up,

1730
02:17:07.879 --> 02:17:16.280
and that informed why my character was
pretending to be so concerned where she was

1731
02:17:16.319 --> 02:17:22.680
a thief and ull kinds of bearer
had a nefarious past which our storm mister

1732
02:17:22.840 --> 02:17:31.440
Lancaster helped unravel. But yeah,
the place is it? I remember Henry

1733
02:17:31.440 --> 02:17:35.879
Hathaway, Alex and I met John
Wayne before he passed at a big thing

1734
02:17:35.920 --> 02:17:41.840
for babe, and he had said
in many interviews to Henry Hathaway, Henry,

1735
02:17:41.000 --> 02:17:45.319
what are he got working for me
today? Which meant, what are

1736
02:17:45.319 --> 02:17:48.639
you shooting behind me? What are
the audience going to see? Is it

1737
02:17:48.840 --> 02:17:54.680
mountains? Is it desert? Is
it forest? Is it a whole bunch

1738
02:17:54.680 --> 02:17:58.200
of other people? Am I alone? So we asked him if he'd said

1739
02:17:58.239 --> 02:18:01.479
that. He said, oh,
damn straight. And that's a big thing,

1740
02:18:03.079 --> 02:18:07.040
the character of the place. And
now they're doing it. They're doing

1741
02:18:07.079 --> 02:18:11.239
it in these wonderful mini series on
television. They never did that in television

1742
02:18:11.319 --> 02:18:16.799
or sixties, seventies and eighties.
It was all close up and backed black

1743
02:18:16.920 --> 02:18:22.920
lat And now the place is a
character and so you're drawn into it in

1744
02:18:22.920 --> 02:18:28.600
a magical way as an actor and
as an audience hopefully. Yeah, it's

1745
02:18:28.639 --> 02:18:31.920
funny how you're talking about the special
effects of Colossus, and now I think

1746
02:18:31.959 --> 02:18:37.120
about entire sets are just either green
screen or wrap around. So do you

1747
02:18:37.159 --> 02:18:41.440
feel like you're in another place?
Do you do? We the President of

1748
02:18:41.479 --> 02:18:46.840
the United States and all of these
scientists sitting around and they built this fantastic

1749
02:18:46.959 --> 02:18:54.639
set at Universal and then they would
have the video for Colossus and then the

1750
02:18:54.680 --> 02:19:01.360
film filming us with Colossus very complicated
and for those didn't understand film, and

1751
02:19:01.479 --> 02:19:05.079
I was one at that point in
the sixties, I thought this so boring?

1752
02:19:05.159 --> 02:19:07.680
Is anybody we're going to watch this? But I was wrong. I

1753
02:19:07.760 --> 02:19:13.559
was wrong. It was it is
a very interesting film. What have you

1754
02:19:13.559 --> 02:19:18.440
been up too lately? I'm still
a member of the Threshold Foundation and they

1755
02:19:18.479 --> 02:19:22.239
know absolutely nothing about show business,
which is fine, but it's working.

1756
02:19:24.120 --> 02:19:28.239
For over forty years, I've been
an environmental activist, peace and social justice,

1757
02:19:28.840 --> 02:19:35.879
so working with that kept me grounded
for forty years in Hollywood. And

1758
02:19:35.959 --> 02:19:43.319
now I don't see plays or much
television coming to me that would indicate where

1759
02:19:43.360 --> 02:19:48.000
we are now. As a planet
as a country, and so reality is

1760
02:19:48.120 --> 02:19:52.879
much more interesting and much more frightening. Hello, the end of the planet

1761
02:19:54.440 --> 02:19:56.879
nuclear war. You can't just sit
there and complain. You've got to get

1762
02:19:56.959 --> 02:20:03.319
up and do something. Planning a
retreat. And one of the questions that

1763
02:20:03.360 --> 02:20:09.319
you had, do I have something
to say that I believe in? And

1764
02:20:09.399 --> 02:20:13.639
I would say yes, let's all. If you pray, or if you

1765
02:20:13.719 --> 02:20:18.760
don't, that's okay too, but
let's work toward kindness, generosity, harmony,

1766
02:20:20.239 --> 02:20:24.559
hope and peace. Miss Clark,
thank you so much. I've had

1767
02:20:24.719 --> 02:20:31.600
such a great time talking with you
today. You're welcome. Good. If

1768
02:20:31.639 --> 02:20:35.399
you are a woman, you walk
these streets at your peril. For this

1769
02:20:35.520 --> 02:20:41.639
is London's Whitechapel in the time of
Jack the Ripper, one of the world's

1770
02:20:41.639 --> 02:20:52.680
most infamous killers. Hello, Darling
Black A bit of fan ray ray.

1771
02:20:56.920 --> 02:21:01.000
The dense black Hog of London hides
a multitude would have synth. It shields

1772
02:21:01.000 --> 02:21:07.559
a murderer whose urged to kill is
conceived in cunning born in the maniac's hill.

1773
02:21:11.040 --> 02:21:13.879
Here are the body, spit and
saw dost haunts the Ripper knew?

1774
02:21:20.239 --> 02:21:26.559
But who was the Ripper? Only
one man thought he knew The answer his

1775
02:21:26.719 --> 02:21:31.559
address two to one by bakstry Feace
Cabin. His name was Sherlock Holmes.

1776
02:21:31.120 --> 02:21:33.760
It's through these murders of the work
of a madman, but a madman with

1777
02:21:33.840 --> 02:21:39.239
certain medical skills, considerable intelligence and
education that if you are right, mister

1778
02:21:39.280 --> 02:21:43.879
Holmes, it brings us back to
the doctors. Sherlock Holmes, the original

1779
02:21:45.000 --> 02:21:52.879
special agent, forerunner of today's thrillmakers. Sherlock Holmes, a genius at detecting

1780
02:21:52.920 --> 02:22:00.559
the improbable and solving the impossible.
Incredible elementary, My dear Watson. Watson,

1781
02:22:00.840 --> 02:22:09.000
the other half of this fantastic partnership. This is Comfax, who helped

1782
02:22:09.040 --> 02:22:13.000
Holmes more than he knew. And
Murray, the doctor whose tongue was as

1783
02:22:13.000 --> 02:22:16.920
sharp as his scalpel. This butcher
boy has the government has all of us

1784
02:22:18.000 --> 02:22:20.959
on the edge of a knife.
Only this morning, three more men were

1785
02:22:20.959 --> 02:22:24.239
detected in the streets of London.
These were the women who lived in the

1786
02:22:24.239 --> 02:22:28.280
shadow of the Ripper. The redhead
once famed for her beauty, the gay

1787
02:22:28.520 --> 02:22:37.440
bosom little Block, the provocative of
Brunette. These were the kind of women

1788
02:22:37.520 --> 02:23:13.319
the Ripper loved till murder did them
part. You'll never see anything like it

1789
02:23:13.479 --> 02:23:16.440
this side of Hell. All right, we are back and we were talking

1790
02:23:16.440 --> 02:23:20.479
about murder by Decree, and I
think all of us have made references to

1791
02:23:20.680 --> 02:23:26.879
some of the previous and subsequent pairings
of Homes and Jack the Ripper. Let's

1792
02:23:26.920 --> 02:23:31.440
talk a little bit about study and
terror. I like John Neville. I'm

1793
02:23:31.440 --> 02:23:35.040
not sure if I liked his interpretation
of Homes, but you know, we're

1794
02:23:35.079 --> 02:23:39.120
talking about the whole pieces on the
chessboard and stuff. This one just felt

1795
02:23:39.159 --> 02:23:43.879
the most linear, just like Holmes
always felt like he was one step behind

1796
02:23:43.159 --> 02:23:46.840
The Ripper until right at the end, is how I was seeing it.

1797
02:23:48.120 --> 02:23:52.479
And it just felt like kind of
like subpar Hammer, almost like I know

1798
02:23:52.559 --> 02:23:56.200
it's not a Hammer film, but
it feels like Hammer so cheesy. I

1799
02:23:56.239 --> 02:24:00.319
did not like this at all.
I wanted to like it. I liked

1800
02:24:00.360 --> 02:24:03.760
Neville in Houston as Watson to a
degree. I didn't think they were awful,

1801
02:24:05.319 --> 02:24:07.920
but every time they weren't there,
I didn't like anything about it.

1802
02:24:07.920 --> 02:24:11.360
It just felt like this, what
kind of movie are we doing here?

1803
02:24:11.639 --> 02:24:15.840
Like? Do you I feel like
they couldn't nailed out what totally they were

1804
02:24:15.879 --> 02:24:18.680
even going for. That's I think
that's completely accurate. They're trying to make

1805
02:24:20.120 --> 02:24:24.639
a period Sherlock Holmes film in nineteen
sixty five, and you know, you're

1806
02:24:24.680 --> 02:24:28.719
in the middle of Swinging London,
the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and

1807
02:24:30.000 --> 02:24:33.760
it just felt and especially when they
got to the advertising campaign for that film

1808
02:24:33.799 --> 02:24:39.440
in the US and they tried to
equate it with the Batman TV show and

1809
02:24:39.559 --> 02:24:43.440
play up the camp qualities of it. You know, the posters literally were

1810
02:24:43.479 --> 02:24:50.079
saying the original camp Crusader in a
cape and it was they were frantically trying

1811
02:24:50.120 --> 02:24:54.719
to figure out what the film was. I think holistically Murdered by the Cree

1812
02:24:54.879 --> 02:25:00.360
works better. And what distinguishes that
from most Sherlock Holmes films is that Sherlock

1813
02:25:00.399 --> 02:25:05.280
Holmes has an arc in this film. He goes on a transformative odyssey from

1814
02:25:05.440 --> 02:25:09.159
kind of a man in the high
Castle, separate from the Mob, to

1815
02:25:09.600 --> 02:25:13.000
becoming their crusading advocate. And you
don't get that, I mean you certainly

1816
02:25:13.000 --> 02:25:16.879
don't get that in any of the
Rathbone films. You know, there's no

1817
02:25:16.040 --> 02:25:20.280
journey for Sherlock Holmes. He's Sherlock
Holmes when the film starts, He's Sherlock

1818
02:25:20.280 --> 02:25:22.280
Holmes when it does. And that
is one of the aspects of this film

1819
02:25:22.280 --> 02:25:26.360
that I did like is it stands
out for being a Sherlock Holmes story in

1820
02:25:26.399 --> 02:25:31.760
which the character does have an arc
and does transform in some way. Going

1821
02:25:31.799 --> 02:25:35.719
back to studying Terror, I mentioned
the lack of Microft this month, and

1822
02:25:35.200 --> 02:25:41.239
here we've got Microft in this played
by Robert Morley, who just what an

1823
02:25:41.280 --> 02:25:45.840
incredible face. It feels again like
he's an actor I grew up with watching

1824
02:25:45.959 --> 02:25:50.040
all the time, and just looking
at the number of credits and things that

1825
02:25:50.079 --> 02:25:52.719
he was in, it was like, yeah, I could see why he

1826
02:25:52.799 --> 02:25:58.959
was probably on television just a ton, so great to see him show up.

1827
02:25:58.000 --> 02:26:03.120
And this tried to do a good
thing to pull Moraley in there and

1828
02:26:03.200 --> 02:26:07.360
talk about how this Ripper case is
kind of shaking in the halls of power,

1829
02:26:07.520 --> 02:26:11.799
but yeah, I just didn't pull
it off. And then the other

1830
02:26:11.840 --> 02:26:16.159
thing that really bothered me was some
of the lady's voices. There's one who's

1831
02:26:16.239 --> 02:26:20.520
like super squeaky, and then so
many of them that just felt like they

1832
02:26:20.559 --> 02:26:24.040
fell off the Eliza do Little Truck
where it's just like because I think we

1833
02:26:24.040 --> 02:26:26.319
start with a POV shot again,
and as soon as the lady turned around,

1834
02:26:26.319 --> 02:26:31.000
I was just like and out Dearie, I just knew it was coming.

1835
02:26:31.840 --> 02:26:35.120
Gave me a headache. It really
gave me an ache. That blond

1836
02:26:35.239 --> 02:26:39.559
lady, especially her voice, and
it's she talks for so long. It's

1837
02:26:39.760 --> 02:26:43.319
yeah, that was rough Man.
That's real prop well in that in a

1838
02:26:43.399 --> 02:26:48.319
Snunty and Terror. All the prostitutes
they're gorgeous. They got all their teeth,

1839
02:26:48.920 --> 02:26:54.440
perfect complexions, really nice clothes,
and that's you know, in murder

1840
02:26:54.479 --> 02:26:56.959
by decree, they at least make
an effort. The women of the night

1841
02:26:58.159 --> 02:27:03.399
do look a little bit downtrodden.
They're not, you know, shining beauties

1842
02:27:03.399 --> 02:27:09.079
by by any stretch of the imagination. What was the one that seduced Watson?

1843
02:27:09.120 --> 02:27:11.639
And I got all my teeth and
oh, there goes one. The

1844
02:27:11.799 --> 02:27:15.840
look on her face was great because
she was just like, oh shit,

1845
02:27:16.959 --> 02:27:20.200
there it goes. So I wanted
to also talk a little bit about dustin

1846
02:27:20.319 --> 02:27:26.559
Shadow, an account of the Ripper
killings by doctor John Watson actually being written

1847
02:27:26.600 --> 02:27:33.200
by another person, Lindsay Faye.
Great, great book. It really worked

1848
02:27:33.479 --> 02:27:37.520
very well for me, and it
was kind of weird having all of this,

1849
02:27:39.120 --> 02:27:43.799
all of these different versions of Holmes
and Jack the Ripper and how all

1850
02:27:43.840 --> 02:27:48.239
the pieces met and she actually went
in a different direction than I wasn't expecting,

1851
02:27:48.360 --> 02:27:52.680
so it actually surprised me. So
there were a couple of good red

1852
02:27:52.719 --> 02:27:56.360
herrings in the book, and I
would say, yeah, definitely check it

1853
02:27:56.399 --> 02:28:01.559
out if you like Sherlock Holmes stories. And of all of these things that

1854
02:28:01.600 --> 02:28:05.840
we're talking about studying Terred Murdered by
Decree, we'll talk about From Hell in

1855
02:28:05.840 --> 02:28:09.600
a minute. I think that her
book is probably the best of the lot.

1856
02:28:11.200 --> 02:28:16.120
Well, Lindsay Faye is a very
well regarded and very knowledgeable Sherlock Holmes

1857
02:28:16.239 --> 02:28:22.479
fan, and that's a major figure
in the Sherlockian community. So yeah,

1858
02:28:22.520 --> 02:28:28.959
she knows her stuff backwards and forwards. So going back to very pretty prostitutes,

1859
02:28:28.319 --> 02:28:35.559
Heather Graham looking really good in From
Hell and does not look like she

1860
02:28:35.000 --> 02:28:39.120
lives on the streets and not at
all. Know some of her companions don't

1861
02:28:39.159 --> 02:28:43.319
look that way either. They're very
very pretty, very well put together.

1862
02:28:43.440 --> 02:28:48.239
And I mean the setting for this
film it really you know, they went

1863
02:28:48.479 --> 02:28:52.799
all out when it came to the
squalor and all that. But what I

1864
02:28:52.799 --> 02:28:58.639
saw from how the very first time, way back when in two thousand and

1865
02:28:58.639 --> 02:29:03.000
one at the Toronto Film Festival funny. I was talking with my friends Skizz

1866
02:29:03.079 --> 02:29:09.079
and he actually saw From Hell the
morning of nine to eleven, and when

1867
02:29:09.079 --> 02:29:11.159
the movie was over, they came
in and said, that's a festival's canceled

1868
02:29:11.559 --> 02:29:16.520
because of nine to eleven. But
when I saw at the first time,

1869
02:29:16.760 --> 02:29:18.920
not a big fan. When I
saw it again all these years later,

1870
02:29:20.079 --> 02:29:24.399
twenty two years later, still not
a big fan. I liked the graphic

1871
02:29:24.479 --> 02:29:28.520
novel a lot more, but yeah, this movie, I was not feeling

1872
02:29:28.600 --> 02:29:31.600
it. I kind of agree with
you. It was okay, It was

1873
02:29:31.680 --> 02:29:35.120
okay. I only saw it once. It's not like I didn't like it

1874
02:29:35.239 --> 02:29:39.360
enough to watch it again. And
I mean, I like that period.

1875
02:29:39.479 --> 02:29:43.159
I liked my Ripper stories at one
point, you know, when there was

1876
02:29:43.200 --> 02:29:46.520
all the Hulla balloon about was it
Prince Eddie? I had, you know,

1877
02:29:46.600 --> 02:29:50.600
three or four Sherlock Holmes books that
I read. But for whatever reason

1878
02:29:52.120 --> 02:29:54.600
it did, that particular film didn't
grab me. I don't look the way

1879
02:29:54.600 --> 02:29:58.920
it shot. I feel like it's
chaotic. It's trying to be more style

1880
02:30:00.040 --> 02:30:03.280
lies and it needs to be.
And forgetting the substance portion. I don't

1881
02:30:03.280 --> 02:30:07.799
necessarily like the story end of it. I really don't like the ending that

1882
02:30:07.079 --> 02:30:11.200
kind of oh, oh yeah,
she didn't. I mean, oh,

1883
02:30:11.280 --> 02:30:16.239
you're wrong. I'm okay with changing
a real life ending and making it more

1884
02:30:16.239 --> 02:30:18.959
of a fictional account. I mean, hey, once upon a time in

1885
02:30:18.040 --> 02:30:22.000
Hollywood, I kind of like how
that ended, But this I just didn't

1886
02:30:22.040 --> 02:30:24.719
like. I just didn't like.
So Mary's okay, so somebody else just

1887
02:30:24.760 --> 02:30:28.000
died in her place. That person
doesn't matter, I don't know, And

1888
02:30:28.719 --> 02:30:33.680
I just didn't like that twist.
I wasn't feeling the whole thing of Johnny

1889
02:30:33.760 --> 02:30:39.760
Depp being psychic because we it's it's
very late in the game before we start

1890
02:30:39.799 --> 02:30:45.319
to see the flashes that he gets. I guess it's you're taking your Donald

1891
02:30:45.319 --> 02:30:50.000
Sutherland and making the main character in
this one. But there's so many times

1892
02:30:50.000 --> 02:30:50.959
at first where he's just like,
oh, yeah, I had a vision.

1893
02:30:52.280 --> 02:30:54.040
Oh I saw that in a vision, And I'm just like, are

1894
02:30:54.040 --> 02:30:58.079
you actually having visions? Are you
just bullshitting? I'd say the only thing

1895
02:30:58.079 --> 02:31:03.000
I liked about from how I liked
it the first time, I think I

1896
02:31:03.079 --> 02:31:07.319
like it even more the second time. Robbie Coltrane. Yeah, I love

1897
02:31:07.440 --> 02:31:11.079
his character. I love when he
makes Shakespeare references and nobody gets that he's

1898
02:31:11.079 --> 02:31:16.920
making Shakespeare references. I like that
he got a lot of pleasure of punching

1899
02:31:16.360 --> 02:31:20.639
Johnny Depp to wake him up.
Johnny Depp to me, I kept mixing

1900
02:31:20.680 --> 02:31:24.840
this movie up with Sleepy Hollow,
and I was like, Oh, yeah,

1901
02:31:24.879 --> 02:31:28.280
this is the one. It's kind
of like The Alienist, where you

1902
02:31:28.319 --> 02:31:31.719
know he's going to come in and
he's gonna put on like scientific equipment and

1903
02:31:31.840 --> 02:31:35.559
figure the case out. And I'm
like, I think my mashup is better

1904
02:31:35.559 --> 02:31:39.719
than either one of those films individually. I would like to see Ichabod Crane

1905
02:31:39.760 --> 02:31:43.399
in from Hell. I think that
might actually make it a little bit more

1906
02:31:43.440 --> 02:31:46.079
interesting. I would watch that.
Yeah, that sounds great. That's what

1907
02:31:46.159 --> 02:31:50.399
this should have been. Is he
really is a gysthematic? Does he really

1908
02:31:50.399 --> 02:31:52.559
have envisions? I mean, I
really don't know what. I just don't

1909
02:31:52.600 --> 02:31:56.479
like this movie. I just don't. I tried so hard. This is

1910
02:31:56.719 --> 02:31:58.840
everything about this movie was right up
my wheelhouse, especially when it came out,

1911
02:32:00.360 --> 02:32:03.479
and it does not perform at any
level for me. Well, it's

1912
02:32:03.520 --> 02:32:07.479
funny. It kind of goes back
to what you were saying I think earlier,

1913
02:32:07.559 --> 02:32:11.000
David, where it's the whole idea
of like these cycles and here we

1914
02:32:11.040 --> 02:32:15.600
are again. Here's now Jack the
Ripper again, all these years later,

1915
02:32:15.840 --> 02:32:18.920
Like, what's the next major Ripper
movie? When is that going to be

1916
02:32:18.959 --> 02:32:22.120
out there? But yeah, here
we are again with the same thing.

1917
02:32:22.319 --> 02:32:28.760
And here we are again with the
Masons. And I mean the similarities between

1918
02:32:28.920 --> 02:32:33.200
this movie and Murder by Decree.
I mean, the Hughes brothers must have

1919
02:32:33.280 --> 02:32:37.600
seen Murder by Decree. You've got
the whole black eyes that Ian Holmes gets

1920
02:32:37.680 --> 02:32:45.959
when he gets really into his persona
of Jack the Ripper. You've got all

1921
02:32:46.040 --> 02:32:50.079
this Masonic stuff that's going on.
And here, I mean it's it's really

1922
02:32:50.159 --> 02:32:54.639
kind of wild to see the similarities. And they saw Murder by Decree and

1923
02:32:54.680 --> 02:32:58.760
that just pushed it ever so slightly
into a different way. I'd like to

1924
02:33:00.120 --> 02:33:03.239
like the title. I like that
from Hell. I mean that's uh,

1925
02:33:03.760 --> 02:33:07.319
that's one of the letters that you
know, Jack the Ripper ostensibly sent to

1926
02:33:07.360 --> 02:33:11.200
the Central News Agency. And you
can see, you know, the letters,

1927
02:33:11.319 --> 02:33:15.639
you know, just pipe in Jack
the Ripper and you can see the

1928
02:33:15.719 --> 02:33:20.719
letter itself on Wikipedia and it's really
creepy to look at because it goes on,

1929
02:33:20.799 --> 02:33:24.600
you know, from Hell, mister
Lusk, that's who it's addressed to

1930
02:33:24.239 --> 02:33:31.959
and the just the penmanship itself and
the misspelled words. It's disturbing to look

1931
02:33:31.000 --> 02:33:35.040
at, even if it appears to
have been uh, you know, not

1932
02:33:35.239 --> 02:33:39.959
legitimate kind of a hoax, not
clearly from the Ripper, you know,

1933
02:33:39.000 --> 02:33:43.200
the guy actually doing the Ripper killings. Um. And I'm always a sucker

1934
02:33:43.200 --> 02:33:46.280
for a good title from hell.
That's a great title. By the way,

1935
02:33:46.280 --> 02:33:50.479
don't make the mistake that I made
and look up killing pictures of Mary

1936
02:33:50.559 --> 02:33:56.360
Kelly, that good Man. Yeah, they're available, and they're pretty awful.

1937
02:33:56.440 --> 02:33:58.920
They are absolutely terrible. I mean
when they say he mutilated his vic

1938
02:34:00.040 --> 02:34:05.079
comes, they weren't exaggerating. Well, Mary Kelly's the one that he had

1939
02:34:05.239 --> 02:34:09.239
a lot of time. A lot
of the other killings were rushed and outdoors.

1940
02:34:09.520 --> 02:34:13.920
It's amazing what human beings are willing
to do to other human beings.

1941
02:34:13.959 --> 02:34:18.079
One two he did on one night
right, like um right, yeah,

1942
02:34:18.200 --> 02:34:22.079
same day, the double event as
it was called, Yeah, in the

1943
02:34:22.120 --> 02:34:26.120
whole sheet of Heather Graham. No, it wasn't really her, it was

1944
02:34:26.159 --> 02:34:28.559
this other one. I'm like,
okay, this kind of like silence of

1945
02:34:28.639 --> 02:34:31.680
the lambs going to the door with
the flowers kind of thing. No,

1946
02:34:31.680 --> 02:34:35.639
no, the like it wasn't the
hobbits in here, it was actually pillows.

1947
02:34:35.239 --> 02:34:39.959
You stab pillows, you silly nascual. Here you've got that, and

1948
02:34:39.000 --> 02:34:46.920
then you've got like basically the minority
report ending of her and the baby or

1949
02:34:46.959 --> 02:34:50.280
the little girl out in this beautiful
cottage that you know, in this completely

1950
02:34:50.520 --> 02:34:56.120
make believe type land where it's like
I almost feel like, are they dead

1951
02:34:56.319 --> 02:35:00.079
because it doesn't feel like they're you
know, it feels like they're in of

1952
02:35:00.079 --> 02:35:03.600
it rather than actually on an island. But no, she's all good.

1953
02:35:03.719 --> 02:35:09.120
And then poor Jenny Depp spoilers just
smokes too by jopium and floats away so

1954
02:35:09.600 --> 02:35:13.360
he doesn't get the happy ending.
Well, that's one thing I appreciate about

1955
02:35:13.399 --> 02:35:20.799
this about Murder by Decree was there
is no emphasis on drug use. I

1956
02:35:20.799 --> 02:35:22.799
mean they make a joke of it. You know, they show homes with

1957
02:35:22.840 --> 02:35:26.799
a syringe in a needle, but
he's using it to clean out his pipe.

1958
02:35:26.600 --> 02:35:31.200
I like that. That was a
fun check and I believe I believe

1959
02:35:31.280 --> 02:35:35.200
they ran the script past the Trelock
Holmes Society of London and that was why

1960
02:35:35.239 --> 02:35:39.600
they gave it their mark up approval. They liked the fact that there was

1961
02:35:39.639 --> 02:35:43.360
not an emphasis on Trlock Holmes's drug
use and murder by de Create. I

1962
02:35:43.399 --> 02:35:48.920
would say it's it's worth watching.
A lot of the cinematography is very cool.

1963
02:35:50.000 --> 02:35:54.680
A lot of the location shooting is
very cool. They used the Tate

1964
02:35:54.760 --> 02:36:00.280
Gallery in the beginning as the opera
house, and then there's a track shot

1965
02:36:00.440 --> 02:36:05.680
traveling shot of Buckingham Palace and not
that you know they've got permission, they

1966
02:36:05.719 --> 02:36:09.000
just put a camera in a carriage
or a card or moving and they just

1967
02:36:09.040 --> 02:36:15.000
shot it and they included it into
the picture. And the sets themselves,

1968
02:36:15.120 --> 02:36:18.719
I mean this was shot at Shepperton
Studios the same time they were shooting Alien

1969
02:36:18.760 --> 02:36:22.959
there. And the set that they've
built just of the wharf and the Thames,

1970
02:36:22.559 --> 02:36:28.639
it's just magnificent. I mean the
film has like seventeen major sets and

1971
02:36:28.079 --> 02:36:33.079
you know, they were really really
meticulous about trying to capture eighteen eighty eight

1972
02:36:33.159 --> 02:36:37.600
Victorian London and it looks great.
It's just a great looking film. A

1973
02:36:37.600 --> 02:36:39.520
little bit preachy at the end,
but other than that, I think it's

1974
02:36:39.959 --> 02:36:46.239
well worth watching. Yeah. I
love the cinematography, especially how fog is

1975
02:36:46.239 --> 02:36:52.559
almost a secondary character here, which
you would almost expect from this particular storyline,

1976
02:36:52.639 --> 02:36:56.159
but I just I really liked the
way Bob Clark captured it. And

1977
02:36:56.600 --> 02:37:00.440
again it amazes me that this is
the Bob Clark of poor Key in a

1978
02:37:00.600 --> 02:37:05.760
Christmas story and baby Geniuses. I
mean, it's wild to even think that.

1979
02:37:05.040 --> 02:37:07.559
But I love the cinematography. I
love the look and the feel of

1980
02:37:07.600 --> 02:37:11.200
the film. I think the music
really compliments everything that's in it. The

1981
02:37:11.319 --> 02:37:16.799
performances are strong. I realize it's
not very purist Sherlock Holmes and they don't

1982
02:37:16.840 --> 02:37:20.559
disagree with David that he doesn't do
a lot until the end. But I

1983
02:37:20.600 --> 02:37:24.319
feel like he's building towards the end, so I can in my mind,

1984
02:37:24.319 --> 02:37:28.200
I can justify it. He's building
toward that finale where he explains everything and

1985
02:37:28.239 --> 02:37:31.799
he's been on the trail and he's
tracking him down and he's figuring it out.

1986
02:37:33.040 --> 02:37:37.159
When you said the end, I
thought you were talking about the scarf

1987
02:37:37.200 --> 02:37:39.440
in the Big Fight. I'd love
how it's like Chekhov's scarf, Like we

1988
02:37:39.520 --> 02:37:45.440
get that in the first act and
then and I really appreciate how once the

1989
02:37:45.479 --> 02:37:50.120
fight is completely over and he's hung
and everything else, that's when he collapses.

1990
02:37:50.399 --> 02:37:54.200
I mean, basically, just he
was going on. I'm pure adrenaline

1991
02:37:54.280 --> 02:37:58.200
up until that point. I love
the wild reveal of finding Mary. It

1992
02:37:58.280 --> 02:38:01.719
was the crew epious reveal. I
thought, I had just a very ominous

1993
02:38:01.760 --> 02:38:09.360
and just horribly dour reveal of her
death and they're just sitting there almost ogling

1994
02:38:09.399 --> 02:38:13.159
the body. It's just it's very
unnerving. So Bob Clark, I think

1995
02:38:13.559 --> 02:38:18.760
it was a very talented horror director. I felt like, and you know,

1996
02:38:18.840 --> 02:38:22.120
Black Christmas, I'm a big fan
of that film. I like what

1997
02:38:22.200 --> 02:38:24.559
he does here. He does some
intriguing shots. I'm very surprised as PG.

1998
02:38:24.760 --> 02:38:30.600
I really love the Jaws homage at
the beginning that you talked about with

1999
02:38:30.639 --> 02:38:33.040
the Black Eyes and I, yeah, there's a lot here that I like.

2000
02:38:33.559 --> 02:38:35.840
I got a real charge out of
that. I'd forgotten it. Like

2001
02:38:35.920 --> 02:38:41.799
watching the scenes with the psychic,
you know, Donald Sutherland and realizing that

2002
02:38:41.959 --> 02:38:46.440
his sister is Ralphie's teacher in a
Christmas story. It's like, oh my

2003
02:38:46.479 --> 02:38:48.520
god, that's her. Yeah,
that was great. I like that a

2004
02:38:48.559 --> 02:38:52.280
lot. Yeah, he definitely liked
to work with the same people very often,

2005
02:38:52.360 --> 02:38:58.799
which was nice. And then to
hear his commentary on the keynote disc

2006
02:38:58.920 --> 02:39:01.840
and just he sounds like he was
a kid in the candy store. When

2007
02:39:01.840 --> 02:39:05.879
it came to these actors, I
love the idea of it originally being Peter

2008
02:39:05.959 --> 02:39:11.520
O'Toole and Laurence Olivier, and that
would have been a little weird since we

2009
02:39:11.639 --> 02:39:16.760
just saw Laurence Olivier being Moriarty in
seven Percent Solution. But yeah, to

2010
02:39:16.840 --> 02:39:20.440
your point, errand if you're if
you're British, you're probably gonna play yeah,

2011
02:39:20.440 --> 02:39:24.120
Sherlock Holms. I mean even Plumber
had played Sherlock Holms the year before,

2012
02:39:24.600 --> 02:39:28.520
and I think I can't remember what
that one was called the Silver Flame

2013
02:39:28.719 --> 02:39:33.159
or something, silver Blaze, silver
Blaze, thank you. Yeah. And

2014
02:39:33.159 --> 02:39:39.440
the Watson in that is that the
Saint Watson is from Smarter Brother. Uh

2015
02:39:39.600 --> 02:39:41.840
yeah, yeah, okay, that
is Yeah, that's wild because as soon

2016
02:39:41.879 --> 02:39:46.760
as I saw him, I was
like, I've seen this Watson before now,

2017
02:39:46.879 --> 02:39:50.719
so he was Watson four times.
He just had he just had a

2018
02:39:50.719 --> 02:39:54.399
good Watson look to you. I
really feel like you can't get into the

2019
02:39:54.399 --> 02:39:58.520
British Academy unless you play Sherlock Holmes
or John Watson. At some point,

2020
02:39:58.639 --> 02:40:03.799
I think it's it's just legally required. It's a part of citizenship. What

2021
02:40:03.000 --> 02:40:07.799
a scandal. I have a little
puny Robert Downey Junior coming over and stealing

2022
02:40:07.959 --> 02:40:13.159
British roles. What the first that
and then breaks it and he takes black

2023
02:40:13.239 --> 02:40:16.239
roles. He takes British roles.
He just doesn't care. He doesn't care.

2024
02:40:16.520 --> 02:40:22.040
Downey can do anything but Canny do
Jimmy Stewart and Vertigo. We'll have

2025
02:40:22.159 --> 02:40:26.280
to see. Well. Peter Peter
O'Toole did make an appearance as homes in

2026
02:40:26.280 --> 02:40:31.639
a cartoon. Unfortunately. My understanding
is that Peter o'tool and Lawrence Olivier both

2027
02:40:31.680 --> 02:40:37.200
agreed to be in the film,
but then they backed out because of I

2028
02:40:37.239 --> 02:40:41.719
mean, I think it was like
Lawrence Olivier was having dalliances with other actresses

2029
02:40:41.760 --> 02:40:45.760
while he was married to Vivian Lee, and Peter O'Toole took advantage of that

2030
02:40:45.840 --> 02:40:50.399
to have a dalliance with Vivian Lee. And so the two gentlemen were not

2031
02:40:50.479 --> 02:40:54.559
on the best of terms because you're
making merry with my wife, old man.

2032
02:40:54.079 --> 02:40:58.360
So they couldn't put they couldn't put
the personal differences inside, which is

2033
02:40:58.440 --> 02:41:03.079
unfortunate because they would have been a
really interesting pairing as homes and watch respect

2034
02:41:03.079 --> 02:41:05.239
to Peter O'Toole for a season an
opportunity though, well I think, I

2035
02:41:05.239 --> 02:41:09.719
think, he said at one point. The only disconcerting thing was there were

2036
02:41:09.719 --> 02:41:13.479
pictures of Laurence Olivier all over her
bedroom while he was with her, But

2037
02:41:13.559 --> 02:41:16.520
that didn't put him off apparently.
So all right, guys, let's go

2038
02:41:16.559 --> 02:41:20.319
ahead and take another break and play
a preview for next week's show. Why

2039
02:41:20.319 --> 02:41:24.479
don't you just go home? I've
been asking myself that one all night long?

2040
02:41:24.799 --> 02:41:28.079
So what happened? Why can't you? I met this girl tonight,

2041
02:41:28.120 --> 02:41:31.000
okay, in a coffee shop.
I like something incredible was really going to

2042
02:41:31.040 --> 02:41:37.959
happen here. So when I got
home, I gave her a call on

2043
02:41:37.000 --> 02:41:39.319
the cab. On the way down
here, all my money flew out the

2044
02:41:39.319 --> 02:41:46.479
window. I didn't really get along
with her that Well, what's the matter?

2045
02:41:46.959 --> 02:41:48.239
I said? I want to see
a plaster of pairs, bagel and

2046
02:41:48.239 --> 02:41:54.239
cream cheese, paperweight, now cough
it up. So I left. So

2047
02:41:54.399 --> 02:41:58.639
I haven't got enough money to get
home until I meet this bartender who wanted

2048
02:41:58.680 --> 02:42:00.799
to lend me the money. That's
all that's right, I forget it,

2049
02:42:01.040 --> 02:42:03.360
get it? Sorry, you're a
boy. So I go back to the

2050
02:42:03.360 --> 02:42:07.760
girl's apartment. But her roommate's really
pissed off at me for the way I

2051
02:42:07.760 --> 02:42:11.559
treated her friend to go. So
I marched right in there to apologize,

2052
02:42:13.239 --> 02:42:16.559
but she'd already killed herself. I
was too late. Oh wow, lighting

2053
02:42:16.799 --> 02:42:20.719
up, what is this? I'm
in big trouble. I mean big trouble.

2054
02:42:20.879 --> 02:42:24.600
Now this part you're gonna say,
Oh, you're lying to me.

2055
02:42:24.799 --> 02:42:31.600
Don't lie to me. But it's
true. This guy whever I couldn't believe

2056
02:42:31.719 --> 02:42:35.159
that. Tell him, tell him
it's not my fault. I didn't do

2057
02:42:35.200 --> 02:42:39.760
it. I gotta tell who you
didn't do? What do call? Lee?

2058
02:42:39.920 --> 02:42:45.680
What's with you? Are you nuts
or something? Luckily, Oh there

2059
02:42:45.760 --> 02:42:50.079
was this girl and so the whole
thing. So now she's the one in

2060
02:42:50.120 --> 02:42:54.440
the mister soft gay stream truckers trying
to kill me. They're all trying to

2061
02:42:54.479 --> 02:42:56.639
kill me. I mean, I
just wanted to leave. You know,

2062
02:42:56.719 --> 02:42:58.959
my apartment made me meet a nice
girl, and now I've got to die.

2063
02:43:00.040 --> 02:43:03.959
Hi, you know what do you
want from me? What have I

2064
02:43:03.159 --> 02:43:11.959
done? I'm just a word processor? Damnit? Is that after hours when

2065
02:43:11.000 --> 02:43:24.239
anything can happen and usually does.
Is that unbelievable or what does? That's?

2066
02:43:24.239 --> 02:43:28.000
All right? We are switching gears
next month and talking about some comedic

2067
02:43:28.040 --> 02:43:31.120
films. First up, we'll be
talking about Martin scor says these after hours.

2068
02:43:31.280 --> 02:43:35.360
Until then, what is the latest
with you? Aaron? Well?

2069
02:43:35.440 --> 02:43:39.079
As I've talked about in the previous
episodes, I am the host of the

2070
02:43:39.079 --> 02:43:43.920
Hollywood Outsider podcast, a weekly award
winning podcast for film and television. We

2071
02:43:45.239 --> 02:43:48.760
have a topic each week. We
do reviews and anything big in entertainment news

2072
02:43:50.120 --> 02:43:52.760
on a weekly basis. That's that
the Hollywood Outsider dot com. That's the

2073
02:43:52.920 --> 02:43:58.680
Hollywood Outsider dot com. And I
do a monthly podcast on Alfred Hitchcock films

2074
02:43:58.719 --> 02:44:03.399
where we re go through each and
every single one of them. We're almost

2075
02:44:03.399 --> 02:44:05.559
to the end. Actually, it's
called Presenting Hitchcock. You can also find

2076
02:44:05.559 --> 02:44:09.600
that at the Hollywoo Outsider dot com
as well, but the podcast itself is

2077
02:44:09.600 --> 02:44:13.000
called Presenting Hitchcock and David, What
is happening with you? Sir? I

2078
02:44:13.040 --> 02:44:18.879
found out earlier this week that my
next new play will premiere at the Purple

2079
02:44:18.959 --> 02:44:24.840
Rose Theater and Lovely Chelsea, Michigan
on March twenty ninth, twenty twenty four.

2080
02:44:24.959 --> 02:44:30.200
The Anti Christ Cometh, a black
comedy and I got two screenplays.

2081
02:44:30.239 --> 02:44:37.799
I'm hawking one on street soccer,
one on a Middle Eastern banker. And

2082
02:44:37.079 --> 02:44:41.959
I've got to if anybody wants to
make a great movie with the actress Chay,

2083
02:44:41.159 --> 02:44:46.159
I blosh you, she's attached to
play the lead. Now we just

2084
02:44:46.200 --> 02:44:48.000
need a wee bit of money to
get it made. So if any of

2085
02:44:48.159 --> 02:44:54.079
your well healed listeners want to make
a film, the script is complete.

2086
02:44:54.159 --> 02:44:58.959
Got an Oscar nominated, Amy winning
actress attached. Every once in a while

2087
02:44:58.239 --> 02:45:03.120
I'll get sort of a hot shot
director, producer, writer, guy that's

2088
02:45:03.120 --> 02:45:05.280
just like, oh yeah, I'm
a big fan of the show. So

2089
02:45:05.799 --> 02:45:11.280
come on, you guys, put
some money behind this project. If anybody's

2090
02:45:11.280 --> 02:45:16.280
ever heard of the Athenal List,
which is an award given to best screenplays

2091
02:45:16.319 --> 02:45:20.639
featuring female protagonists, my screenplay in
the Land of Fire and Ice won that

2092
02:45:22.360 --> 02:45:26.040
and Ray liked it and I met
her in Toronto to talk about it and

2093
02:45:26.120 --> 02:45:28.840
she's very geeked about it. But
yeah, you know, movies are hard

2094
02:45:28.840 --> 02:45:31.239
to get, you know, made, So we'll see, we'll see what

2095
02:45:31.239 --> 02:45:35.719
happens. Thank you guys so much
for being on this journey of us talking

2096
02:45:35.719 --> 02:45:39.520
about Sherlock Holmes for a month.
I think we might have to come back

2097
02:45:39.559 --> 02:45:43.959
and we'd look at some eighties incarnations
or two thousands, pick another decade.

2098
02:45:45.040 --> 02:45:48.879
You know that we can finally talk
about young Sherlock Holmes thereon that you tease

2099
02:45:50.000 --> 02:45:52.799
me, don't tease. I'm on
board if you guys, I'm a right

2100
02:45:54.200 --> 02:45:58.280
absolutely might become a tradition. You
never know. So thank you so much

2101
02:45:58.280 --> 02:46:01.120
guys for being able to show Thanks
everybody for listening. If you want to

2102
02:46:01.120 --> 02:46:03.719
hear more of me shooting off my
mouth, check out some of the other

2103
02:46:03.760 --> 02:46:09.079
shows I work on. They are
all available at weirdingwaymedia dot com. Thanks

2104
02:46:09.159 --> 02:46:11.760
especially to our Patreon community. If
you want to join the community, visit

2105
02:46:11.879 --> 02:46:18.239
patreon dot com slash Projection Booth.
Every donation we get helps the Projection Booth

2106
02:46:18.639 --> 02:49:00.120
take Her for the world. M