WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.320 The data supporting increased membership of the Church of Latter Day Saints is a bit 2 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:10.279 ambiguous, considering its trends are centered around COVID and the pandemic's impact on society. 3 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:14.839 Scott tell us more about the unclear data and why we should care if 4 00:00:14.839 --> 00:00:19.480 at all. Sure well as April Tulips bloom, the Church of Jesus Christ 5 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:25.839 of Latter Day Saints unveils its annual statistics emit ferrent speculation. Two contrasting narratives 6 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:31.839 emerge, one suggesting that the churches inevitably declining, the others championing its unwavering 7 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:36.200 growth. Yet, amidst this seeming paradox, a plea for perspective arises, 8 00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:41.640 emphasizing the neutrality of data and the complexity of religious dynamics. While twenty twenty 9 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:46.679 three showcased modest growth both globally and in the United States, deeper analysis reveals 10 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:53.159 nuanced challenges despite marginal increases in membership and missionary activity. Concerns linger over dwindling 11 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:58.399 birth rates and waning commitment. The juxtaposition of these narratives underscores the intricate landscape 12 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:03.119 of Latter Day Saint demographics, where optimism meets apprehension in the face of evolving 13 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:07.280 religious landscapes. The story is from the Salt Lake Tribune by Justin McClellan and 14 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:11.239 it was released on April thirteenth, twenty twenty four. So there's a lot 15 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.439 of data packed into this story where it could support potentially arise in Latter day 16 00:01:17.439 --> 00:01:22.599 Saints church attendance. Excuse me, and then, but there are some nuances 17 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:26.760 that we're missing. Richard. You suggest that the world becoming more educated could 18 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:32.560 lead to a decline in the belief of the LDS dogma. But considering that 19 00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:36.159 there is still so much religion out there in the world that exists, is 20 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:38.599 this a matter of education or could it be something else? Well, it's 21 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:45.519 a combination of two things, education and doctrination. As long as the religious 22 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:49.439 people that exist keep indoctrinating their kids and don't let them learn how to be 23 00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:53.480 critical thinkers, we're going to continue to have some growth in religion because that's 24 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:59.439 where it comes from. That's where it's always come from. Myself, as 25 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.439 a permit, I was not indoctrinated into anything, and I grew up to 26 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:08.439 be a wonderful skeptical thinker. Well you know, probably, Well you can. 27 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:13.520 You can play with that all you want, but in any case, 28 00:02:13.879 --> 00:02:19.479 the point is this, if you if I'll go back to one simple statistic, 29 00:02:20.360 --> 00:02:23.039 the vast majority of people have the same religion as their parents or the 30 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:28.240 cultural group they grew up in. What does that tell you about where it 31 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.599 comes from? Yeah? Uh, well, Scott, people say that numbers 32 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:36.039 don't lie. So when we look at this data, is there really anything 33 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:42.360 wrong with reading these numbers that show there is actually an increase in church attendance 34 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.639 in the Olds Church? What are your thoughts on that one? Well, 35 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:50.120 I would say the numbers don't lie, but the interpretation of those numbers can. 36 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:54.360 That's that's where the confusion can come in. Or they even sometimes intentional 37 00:02:54.479 --> 00:02:58.919 misleading can can happen there. And it's all about it's all the way that 38 00:02:58.919 --> 00:03:02.000 that it's interpreted. Uh. Richard Feynman, the physicist, once said that 39 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:07.960 if you're if you're if your theory conflicts with observation, then you're wrong. 40 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.879 And so uh so, here the numbers are just a reflection of reality. 41 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.159 Okay, they gathered that, we're assuming that that it's uh, you know 42 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:20.199 that they used decent methodology and gathering this data. But the data just reflects 43 00:03:20.280 --> 00:03:23.080 what they found, and so it's the interpretation that's the problem. And I 44 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:27.680 think in that regard, I think this data is really I mean, we've 45 00:03:27.719 --> 00:03:31.599 just got we're still on the on the rebound from this massive, massive worldwide 46 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:37.319 pandemic. It's something that rarely happens, if ever, in the world, 47 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:43.400 and so our normal uh interpretation of data has to adjust. And I think 48 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:46.479 that if you look at the at the data that they're showing, they show 49 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:51.800 a drastic drop off in twenty twenty uh and then and then an increase, 50 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:57.879 even a slight increase to above where it was before of their new new baptisms 51 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:00.240 and their new children. And but we have to we have to consider the 52 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:05.319 fact that this pandemic can have more of an effect than just that one particular 53 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:11.800 year. For example, if somebody wants to baptize their child into the Mormon 54 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.479 Church and and a pandemic just hit, they're not going to just say, 55 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:16.360 oh, screw it, and then we're not going to do it right. 56 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:18.920 They're going to put it off for a year. So you would expect there 57 00:04:18.959 --> 00:04:23.399 to be some kind of bounce back. Same thing if somebody wants to be 58 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:26.160 baptized into the church. They're not going to say, oh, well, 59 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:29.160 I guess I'm not going to be a Mormon because of COVID. No, 60 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:30.879 they're just gonna say, well, let's wait until things calm down and then 61 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.519 we're going to go back in. And so you can there's analysis that can 62 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:40.040 be done to show that that, yeah, numbers are increasing, and that's 63 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:44.079 fine. But interpreting those numbers to mean that enrollment is on the rise, 64 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:47.120 I think is way too soon, way way too soon. We need to 65 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.560 we need to re establish baselines in this new paradigm. Well, I want 66 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:55.040 to compare that to other baselines that we know exists. And Jonathan, I 67 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.160 have to turn again to you and your military experience, as I frequently do. 68 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:03.199 But when we look at years where the economy is down, things like 69 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:09.120 military recruitment go up, college enrollment goes up, and as the economy improves, 70 00:05:09.319 --> 00:05:14.560 jobs tend to well be more available. And this correlation reverses. People 71 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:15.959 leave the military, people stop going to school, and they go to work. 72 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:20.279 But the opposite seems to be happening here. Okay, so the impact 73 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:24.120 that COVID had kind of having an opposite effect. So does Scott have a 74 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:28.000 point? Is this a bounce back or is there something else that we're missing. 75 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:31.600 Well, well, in the military we call those economic draftees. But 76 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:39.079 the church growth, well, growth and influence of any church is nonlinear, 77 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:44.000 so you're going to see fluctuations due to things like the pandemic. I agree 78 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.160 with Scott on that it's going to affect the numbers, but if you take 79 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:50.879 out the pandemic years, it's likely they picked up where they left off, 80 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:59.319 because the overall population of LDS adherents has risen over the ten year last ten 81 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:03.160 years, consistent growth of about one percent per year. So when you're looking 82 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:08.920 at these, you also have to take into account of what are the percentages 83 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:14.600 based on Is it just their thing or is that what's How does the percentage 84 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:18.560 of the growth of the US population as a whole affect that, You know, 85 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:24.519 how many of the group that they're drawing their new converts from is actually 86 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:28.360 available to them, and if that grows, then you might see some growth 87 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:31.800 also. So there's a lot of nuance to this that is very difficult to 88 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:36.439 parse out if you don't have the actual study and you don't have access to 89 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:40.600 the actual numbers and where they got them from, because there can be a 90 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:44.399 lot of distortion. Like like I agree with Scott, there can be a 91 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:47.040 lot of distortion in the analysis of it. And I'm not a statistician, 92 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:51.000 though I do have one in my family, and I can tell you that 93 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:56.639 I would love to get them to look at the study and see what they 94 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:00.639 think of it, because that would be an interesting conversation. However, we 95 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.399 don't have the actual study. We have reporting on the actuals. Yeah, 96 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.480 and so go ahead, finish up real quick, and then I want to 97 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:11.120 jump over to Richard. Well, it's just one of the things that happens 98 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:15.079 is that we need to get more into the weeds on that, and we 99 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.079 don't really have time here to do it. But you know, there's you 100 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.560 know, there is a few other points that could be made, but I 101 00:07:23.560 --> 00:07:26.839 don't think they're you know, really relevant now that we've gone to this far. 102 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.519 Well, on that note, you know, I want to get back 103 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:30.600 to the point that that Richard made as far as education is concerned, you 104 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:39.000 know, is educating our our youth, is educating our society? Really whittling 105 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:43.759 this down, Richard, what do we have to do in order to ensure 106 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:50.000 that people are not just indoctrinated Generation after generation and allowing this kind of uh, 107 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:55.920 you know, I guess, perpetuity of these ridiculous beliefs. What are 108 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.120 the what are the steps we need to take as a society to ensure that 109 00:07:59.160 --> 00:08:03.319 we can all that from happening. Broll. One of the things that we're 110 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.079 doing is the kind of programs we put on here because we get to young 111 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:11.040 adults hopefully and if their minds get opened and they start looking at things and 112 00:08:11.079 --> 00:08:15.079 start questioning, and then when they have kids, they don't, you know, 113 00:08:15.240 --> 00:08:18.560 send them off to be indoctrinated. I think that can really help. 114 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:22.680 It's you know, I mean, I'll just give you an example. When 115 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.040 I went to high school, we had a class on civics, taught us 116 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.240 all about how the government works. Most school districts don't have that anymore. 117 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.600 Kids grow up and they don't have an idea that there's three branches of government. 118 00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:37.759 I mean, it's that crazy. But I would love and maybe Scott, 119 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:41.600 maybe your teacher, someday we should talk about this. I'm thinking I 120 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:43.600 got too many projects going on, but one of the projects is I'd like 121 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:50.919 to put together a class for how to teach people to be you know, 122 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:54.320 critical thinkers. How to look at things and analyze them as opposed to you 123 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:58.159 know, you know this probably better than I do. But I have a 124 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:03.320 lot of friends that are teachers, and these these standardized test stuff. You 125 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.720 know, all it does is how well do you memorize something and can spit 126 00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:09.840 it back. That doesn't teach people how to think, you know, I 127 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:13.000 mean, that's you know, okay, So you know that Washington was the 128 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:16.799 first president. What were his politics? You know, what was going on 129 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.600 there? I mean the same thing about Jefferson and Madison. You know, 130 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.799 those are the two guys that were pushing hard for keeping religion out of government. 131 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.639 But you would never know that when you listen to some of these Christian 132 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.960 apologists talk about it. We're a Christian nation, you know that. I 133 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:39.120 mean, I mean there's so much there, and especially now with people trying 134 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.519 to ban books. They don't want people to learn about other cultures and just 135 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:48.120 they're trying to keep everything so tribal. So you know, I grew up 136 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:54.080 very luckily in a very mixed racial neighborhood and I had friends that were black, 137 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.919 brown, Asian, Native American. I played sports with them, I 138 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.440 had my advanced math classes with them. I saw some that were really bright, 139 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.279 some that were I mean, it was just a human panoply of things 140 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.000 that experience, you know, and learning with people. I had some really 141 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.679 good teachers in high school and college that forced you to think, not they 142 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:18.879 don't they don't want any spinning back stuff. They demanded that you come up 143 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:22.240 with some other ideas. And that's the kind of stuff that makes people look 144 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:24.759 at things and go, you know, that doesn't sound right. I think 145 00:10:24.799 --> 00:10:28.320 I take a look at that, and so that's what's that's what we got 146 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.679 to move toward. You know, I want to ask Scott, you know, 147 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:33.440 because you bring up a good point. Scott's a teacher, and you 148 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.919 know, this education problem or or lack of education in these these corners could 149 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.960 definitely have an impact on the growth of these if on the growth of these 150 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:48.159 organizations, if the proper education is not given, Scott, what do you 151 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:52.320 see in your circles? Is education getting better over time? And if not, 152 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:58.000 is there is it helping along these this dogmatic thinking and allowing organizations like 153 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.879 the LDS to kind of a positive spin on some of these uh some of 154 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:07.080 these this data, well, I mean clearly I have a biased opinion here 155 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.039 being being a teacher and in in the industry, and so you know, 156 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:13.120 we need to you know, my take my words with a grain of salt. 157 00:11:13.799 --> 00:11:16.759 First thing, though, I want to I want to clarify something. 158 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:18.639 When I was talking about bounce back. What I'm saying, I'm not saying 159 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.519 that I think that's what was happening. What I'm saying is that the data 160 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.679 can be used to create multiple narratives that are conflicting with each other. And 161 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.320 so based off of that, we need to we need to be concerned on 162 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:35.320 what Richard was saying about about skeptical thinking. Your question now is is can 163 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:39.440 we you know, is education improving? Yeah? I think I think education 164 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.639 the educational system I think is much better than when I was in school. 165 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.559 I think that, and again I have a biased opinion here. I think 166 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:52.120 the public attitude towards education, though, has changed quite a bit. Uh 167 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:56.919 parental attitudes, student attitudes, UH, administration attitudes, government attitudes. I 168 00:11:56.960 --> 00:12:01.919 think that I think it's getting harder and harder to do things just in general, 169 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.279 and so H educating is one of those things that I think we're we're 170 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:13.919 coming up against bigger and bigger challenges we're having UH lesser administrative support. We're 171 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:18.480 having constant pressures on budgets and things like that, and we're being asked to 172 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:26.279 do more with less, uh and and so it's it's a complex uh miasma 173 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.960 there to to try to analyze. And so, you know, we talk 174 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:33.679 about on all of the ACA shows about how it's okay to say I don't 175 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.759 know, right if if you if you don't have enough information to make a 176 00:12:37.759 --> 00:12:41.200 conclusion one way, other one way or the other. I think I think 177 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:45.679 it's okay to say we don't know. You know, we want to direct, 178 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.720 we want to direct the investigation and we want to direct our information gathering 179 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:54.320 so that we can get useful information to make improvements. But yeah, I 180 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.799 think I've I know, me personally, I've improved as a teacher every year 181 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.039 since I've started. And uh, you know, we we try new things, 182 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.440 we try changing things. Sometimes people like it, sometimes they don't. 183 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.320 But it's it's it's, uh, you know, the educational system doesn't live 184 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:15.000 in a vacuum. And so that's how you get to that skeptical that skeptical 185 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:16.960 thinking, you know, that's how you know by by making the improvements and 186 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.679 analyzing the way that we do things. We get to that skeptical thinking so 187 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.440 that we can say, I don't know. And to to counter back to 188 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.559 your point about the bounce back, what I was saying is, you know, 189 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:31.399 is this just a positive spin that that shows a bounce back from the 190 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:33.879 ld S? Right? And so I think I could agree with you there 191 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.759 where the the LDS takes this data and they say, oh, look at 192 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:39.440 us, look at our bounce back, right, But in reality it's not 193 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.440 necessarily what's happening, that's right, And actually I take you know, I'm 194 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:48.039 encouraged by the fact that I think, you know, the article itself did 195 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.840 caution against interpreting the data one way, the one way or the other, 196 00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.159 and good on them, uh for doing that. But normally an organization like 197 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.440 this and this is again my this is just my opinion, and I'm I'm 198 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:07.279 an atheist activist, and so I'm biased against religion in general. But to 199 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.600 me, it seems like this would be exactly the kind of thing where the 200 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:13.240 church would want to pretty it up and would want to present it as being 201 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:18.600 nicer than it is. So the fact that they're cautioning, you know, 202 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:24.039 jumping to conclusions, to me makes me suspicious that well, maybe it's worse 203 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.840 than what they're presenting, right, maybe maybe when they pretty it up to 204 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:31.399 get it up to the point of of you know, of I don't know. 205 00:14:31.559 --> 00:14:33.720 Then you know, to me, that's that's encouraging. Yeah, yeah, 206 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.200 and I want to we got to move to Jonathan. Jonathan, you 207 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.279 had some interesting points to make about all this data, and you know, 208 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:45.480 reading over kind of what your thoughts are here, you do you care to 209 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.600 expand on on some of these, uh, some of these numbers that the 210 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:56.039 ld S is championing. Yeah, Like I said, there's the growth is 211 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:00.759 interesting when you take a look at some of the numbers. If if you 212 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:05.679 take into account actual population growth in the US point four to nine percent, 213 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:11.039 so you're if you're taking the count births and deaths, it's it's it's almost 214 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.559 like zero point five percent, right, half a percent. And if they're 215 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.399 growing at one percent per year there as a percentage of the population, it's 216 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:24.000 kind of you know, it's not really that impressive. So you know, 217 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:28.919 the numbers include those of course who are still on the rolls but do not 218 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.840 practice or tithe or loosely or loosely affiliated. I mean, they only go 219 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.840 when they kind of have to, you know, and that is is something 220 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:43.720 that kind of shows that, Yeah, numbers can be deceptive when you don't 221 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:48.559 when you try and unspin them. You know, worldwide LDS growth was one 222 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:52.639 point four nine percent, you know, which is compared to the point four 223 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:58.320 nine of population growth worldwide of seventy three million a year. So it's like, 224 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:02.919 yeah, that with their birth rates and things like that doesn't seem to 225 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:07.039 be all that impressive. So again, big grain of salt with the report. 226 00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:11.799 But again they did try and balance it a little bit, but that 227 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.679 can be just another you know, way to make it look presentable. Yeah, 228 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:21.120 absolutely, you know I have I haven't thought about something that that Scott 229 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:25.120 said earlier. Somebody else might have said it about, you know, the 230 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:29.440 statistics don't lie, and then it's about interpreting. But I would I would 231 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:33.639 go one step farther with a group like this. That's basic doctrines are so 232 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:40.879 far from reality that let's put it this way. People that report statistics can 233 00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:44.759 lie, people that collect them can lie. You know, when I when 234 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:48.240 I look at polling, the first thing I want to know about a poll 235 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.200 is who asked the questions? What were the exact questions, and who were 236 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:56.080 they asked of, because otherwise a pole doesn't mean a damn thing. I 237 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.440 could create a poll and talk to a thousand people and get exact exactly what 238 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.559 I wanted by taking it to certain neighborhoods and posing the question, you know, 239 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.200 like that that that funny old question are you still being your wife? 240 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:12.359 You know, presupposes an answer. So, I mean, but they do 241 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.559 that in polls. They I get pulls all the time. I'm gonna you 242 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:19.000 know, all the time, and some of them are just so ridiculous that 243 00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:22.400 they don't have good options in there they even want to vote on. So 244 00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:26.440 I you know, I mean, I don't know how many of you folks 245 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.839 have read the Book of Mormon, but there's nothing in there that tells me 246 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:33.920 anybody's being rational and that they could maybe not even count right. I'm sorry, 247 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.759 but you know that goes to the larger point that I think everybody made 248 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.440 right. So we have we have Richard, you brought up the point of 249 00:17:41.559 --> 00:17:48.119 education. We and when we had Jonathan and Scott talking about how data can 250 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.960 be used to kind of skew the truth. And you know, when you 251 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.960 have poor education or you have a way to kind of use data to your 252 00:17:56.000 --> 00:18:02.720 advantage. We end up with this h repetuity of people just believing the wrong 253 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.480 thing, you know, because you can take really any information that you have, 254 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.200 whether it's through a really poor education system or a lack of complete data, 255 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.240 and spin your own message. And this is how we see this generational 256 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:19.200 this generational. I guess I don't know what the what the right term I'm 257 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.839 looking for is, but we're just stuck, you know, we're just stuck 258 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.960 in a position where we're not moving on. And so on that note, 259 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:30.279 I want to get everybody's opinion one last time, Scott. I'm going to 260 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.799 go to you first, Jonathan. I'm gonna come to you, and then 261 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.920 Richard will close out this segment with you. So Scott, go ahead. 262 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.319 Sure. I think this is a great example. One of the things that 263 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:41.519 I tell my students I teach an intro statistics class, and one of the 264 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:45.640 things that I tell them is that one of the best reasons to learn math 265 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.480 and to learn statistics is so that you can't be manipulated and tricked by other 266 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:52.279 people who know more math than you. And so knowledge is power, and 267 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.640 so it's right there for the taking. Take a statistics course, Jonathan and 268 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:03.400 yeah, and don't believe it that just because it's math, your eyes glaze 269 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:08.519 over and you shut down. Math is fun. Actually, so I I 270 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.400 enjoyed math all the way through school, and I think that, uh uh, 271 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.160 there's some really great teachers out there. But again, you have to 272 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.279 be aware of not just what your formal fallacies and your informal fallacies are and 273 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.880 how to think critically, but you also have to be able to use how 274 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:30.960 numbers can be used to model and that and how they can be used to 275 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.759 deceive. I think education is key what we've what we've come across here, 276 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.720 and I want to I want to pitch that to Richard since that was his 277 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.480 original thoughts, So go ahead and close out what your thoughts are on this 278 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.359 segment. Well, you know, just off the top of my head, 279 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:49.240 I think I would have rather had a discussion about their doctrine. But the 280 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:56.000 numbers here are are are interesting, but you know, they're so non differential 281 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.359 in one respect, I don't know if it makes much difference. There was 282 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.599 no big up off our big gain. You know, somebody wrote an article 283 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:06.720 and we picked it up. You know. I just think we have to 284 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:12.839 look carefully about these things and worry more about what's you know, what's happening. 285 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:18.279 I mean the fact that Scott is teaching a beginning statistics class. I 286 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:23.240 think that's fantastic because the more I'm a math guy I was. I was 287 00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:27.359 like one of the top math kids in my school when I was in school, 288 00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.839 and I loved it and I still love it, and it's funny. 289 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.799 I use it all the time in various funny little ways which I won't bore 290 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:38.880 you with. But there's just things that you run into in life where you 291 00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:45.279 know, knowing how to do things like that and understand things mathematically makes life 292 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:51.000 easier and more understandable. Math certainly is fun. To quote the great Jonathan 293 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.720 wrote a bush and you know, we owe it to ourselves to be able 294 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.039 to interpret things. Honestly, we owe it to our generations that come after 295 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:00.519 us to give them the tools to be able to do that as well.