1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,079 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:53,280 crime, Bill Thomas. You're listening to the mind over Murder podcast. Welcome 10 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:57,439 to mind over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined 11 00:00:57,439 --> 00:01:03,880 today by doctor Katherine Ramslin, forensicsitcheologist, professor, author and all around awesome 12 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,480 person. Doctor Ramsland, Welcome to mind over Murder. Thank you for joining 13 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,079 us. I'm very happy to be here. I'm excited about your questions and 14 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:15,000 ready to go. Let's go ahead and start by having you tell our listeners 15 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:22,640 about your extensive professional background, both as a teacher and a writer. Okay, 16 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,439 it covers a lot of years. I actually just got a contract for 17 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:34,000 my sevendieth book. I have three others in motion. A writer is what 18 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:38,680 I am, even though I'm also a professor of forensic psychology. But I've 19 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:42,239 also been a philosophy professor. I taught at Rutgers University for fifteen years, 20 00:01:42,359 --> 00:01:48,319 teaching philosophy. I've been a lot of different odd things, but mostly I 21 00:01:48,359 --> 00:01:53,079 think my heart is in writing, and that is what I spend every free 22 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,400 moment doing writing and traveling and researching, so that would cover basically everything. 23 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:05,640 I have five date degrees. I just got one last year, and that 24 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,240 they in creative writing, where we went to Ireland and we are going to 25 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:15,800 Scotland, even though I already have the degree Criminal Justice, forensic Psychology, 26 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:20,800 clinical psychology, philo. Oh my gosh, I'd like to learn. Wow, 27 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:24,840 that's incredible. Oh my goodness. See you did talk about you're working 28 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:29,680 on your seventieth book, which is incomprehensible to me. I can barely get 29 00:02:29,719 --> 00:02:32,919 one finished, much less seventy, so it would be impossible to just list 30 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,000 all of these publications, but what are some of the ones that you have 31 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:40,439 most enjoyed writing, either because of the subject matter or because of the process. 32 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,960 It's hard to pick, but certainly the one I wrote that came out 33 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,000 in twenty twenty, How to Catch a Killer, took the cases of thirty 34 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:54,520 serial killers and categorize them according to the things that had worked to catch them. 35 00:02:54,639 --> 00:03:00,639 So one was forensic innovation, police procedure, mistakes, they witnesses, 36 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,960 and those that turn themselves. That was very interesting. I love the book 37 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,680 that I wrote for one of my classes. I teach a psychology EBB death 38 00:03:09,719 --> 00:03:15,680 investigation course, and I have taught for twenty years and finally wrote the textbook 39 00:03:15,719 --> 00:03:20,039 for it. So I talk a lot about the different procedures that involve the 40 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:24,240 psychological analysis. Profiling is the one most people know, but psychological autopsy is 41 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,159 the one I like best because that is where the psychologist really gets to be 42 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,159 a detective in many ways. And then part of it also involves teamwork. 43 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:37,639 So I have the students work on cases and we have a crime scene house 44 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:40,120 where we lay things out. They have to figure out the clues, etc. 45 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:45,240 So that's a lot of fun. And then the fiction has been fun 46 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,759 as well. I have a three book deal for a fictional series with a 47 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:57,240 forensic psychologist who operates her own private investigation agency in the Carolinas. By the 48 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,759 way, because I have out her banks, so I feel that way I 49 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:05,360 can go to the out of banks tax deductible anytime I want. It's all 50 00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:10,240 research, and she also a lot of weather stuff involved in that because I 51 00:04:10,319 --> 00:04:15,599 love weather, so I have forensic meteorologists involved, dog handlers, things like. 52 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,839 I'm having a blast doing that because it's all stuff that I really do 53 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:23,959 based on actual cases that are really bizarre. So that's been a lot of 54 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,040 fun. The first one comes out in August, and I'm already almost done 55 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,399 with the second one. So what's your title for the first book in the 56 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,800 series. It's called you actually almost have to see it. It's called Ice 57 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:41,639 scream Man, but it's I Scream Man. Okay, everybody make a note 58 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:47,160 of this. I Scream Man will come out in August twenty twenty two. 59 00:04:47,759 --> 00:04:51,199 That's right, that's awesome. I hope we're not being too tough on you 60 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:56,680 with this question. So for the mind of our murdered listeners who are very 61 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,480 interested in learning which book of you or sixty nine almost seventy books. Should 62 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:09,839 they start with, what's a good introduction for someone who wants to learn more 63 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,879 about you and the work that you have written? One called The Criminal Mind. 64 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,759 You can still get that in an e form and that's covering forensic psychology 65 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,040 for writers, but it does give an overview of the kinds of things forensic 66 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:26,079 psychologists do. Also. I think the one that I spent the most time 67 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,800 on that has been very intensive is the book I did with the BTK serial 68 00:05:30,879 --> 00:05:34,240 killer Dennis Raider. That was five years in the making. I've never spent 69 00:05:34,399 --> 00:05:38,319 so much time on a book as I did with that one. And that 70 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:44,360 then also became a four part documentary on A and E. And I was 71 00:05:44,399 --> 00:05:49,000 an executive producer watching a book that had that kind of unusual It was called 72 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:56,920 a guided autobiography. So he's telling his story but guided through my clinical background 73 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,959 because I wanted to extract from him insights for criminology, forensic psychology, and 74 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:05,439 law enforcement. That's an unusual vision right off the bat, But then to 75 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:12,879 watch this become a documentary holding that vision is a writer's dream. That's what 76 00:06:12,959 --> 00:06:16,160 every writer wants to see. And the team that pitched themselves to me to 77 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,000 do this. Got it and I've had many people not get it, but 78 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,480 they got it. It wasn't from the point of view of the investigators, 79 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:29,759 which is the typical thing in the BTKA case. This is from his point 80 00:06:29,759 --> 00:06:33,319 of view and the people he affected through this. So it was a real 81 00:06:33,399 --> 00:06:39,240 sense of Wichita, Kansas, where he committed his ten murders, a real 82 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,920 sense of how he impacted people there. We talked to the DA who was 83 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:46,279 actually a friend of mine before I ever even started the book, so she 84 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,560 was very good about sharing things with me, talked to cops who had been 85 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,319 involved, talked to victim family members. It was quite a lot of work, 86 00:06:56,639 --> 00:07:00,160 I will say that, especially because we were filming in August in Kansas 87 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,519 in one hundred plus degree all day long. That's certainly intense. But I 88 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:11,199 really enjoyed the whole process. Wow. Addition to the writing, I know 89 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:15,920 that you teach as well your teacher and assistant provost to Sales University. What 90 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:20,879 do you teach and then what treats do you look for any successful student of 91 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:27,199 forensic psychology. That question actually has inspired me to write a blog. All 92 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,920 right, yay were to be coming up this week because I had to really 93 00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:35,319 think about that idea of the successful student in this particular field, because I 94 00:07:35,399 --> 00:07:41,399 have had recently, I've had student candidates who've been asking me what can they 95 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,639 do with this, etc? At any rate. Basically, I run the 96 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:49,720 forensic track at the undergraduate level and also in the master's program and criminal justice, 97 00:07:49,759 --> 00:07:55,279 so I'm in psychology and criminal justice undergraduate and graduate. I teach a 98 00:07:55,439 --> 00:08:01,560 basic forensic psychology class, a death investigation class because I do investigation stuff with 99 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:07,000 local corners, and then of course on extreme offenders, mass murderers, free 100 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:09,759 killers, serial killers, and so they get the whole range there, and 101 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:15,519 then those kind of get repackaged as graduate courses at a more advanced level. 102 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,120 So that's what I teach. But now that i'm assistant probosts, teaching is 103 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:26,360 halftime and administrative stuff is all the rest. When I'm watching students, the 104 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,360 first thing that I think I like to see is the idea of a lifelong 105 00:08:30,439 --> 00:08:35,480 learner who's curious, who wants to learn things, who isn't just going to 106 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,320 school to get it over with their go through the motions or because they can't 107 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,759 think of anything else to do, but they're there because it's what they really 108 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:46,440 want to do and they can't wait to dive in, and they're so excited 109 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,039 about whatever books are being they're asked to read or papers there as to write, 110 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,960 and they'll bring things into it. So that idea of the lifelong learner, 111 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,799 the curious person is most important. And one of the things I think 112 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,679 students really have a huge hurdle with these days, thanks largely to media, 113 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:09,919 is focus, because we and even I have experienced social media has taken a 114 00:09:09,919 --> 00:09:13,399 lot of my ability to focus. I used to be able to write for 115 00:09:13,519 --> 00:09:16,919 hours at a time, and now it's very choppy. And many of the 116 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,399 students I teach have come up on this stuff. They've been trained through Sesame 117 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:26,279 Street actually starting all the way back there, where the camera angles are always 118 00:09:26,399 --> 00:09:30,799 very choppy and fast. That affects your brain, and so the ability to 119 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:35,080 focus is really difficult for them, and if they put their mind to it, 120 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,200 they can do it. But that would be one another thing that I 121 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:43,360 would definitely look for. And then someone who's confident enough to want to step 122 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:46,840 out in their own be self reliant in a way. I think I would 123 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:50,399 love to see more of that, but it's tough because they've just been through 124 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,480 this pandemic where they disengage or asked to learn in a way that they've never 125 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,679 done before, and now we're asking them to come right back in re engage. 126 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,759 So there's a lot of challenges right now for college students. But I 127 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:09,279 still think the ones who have a sense of self reliance and curiosity and sense 128 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,320 of purpose so they can set goals, those are the ones that are going 129 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:18,559 to succeed. Are you back at the Sales University? Are you back within? 130 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,879 We were always here learning. We just spent millions of dollars fixing our 131 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:31,120 classrooms, socially distantees and doing much more hybrid kinds of classes. Now, 132 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,440 I've been teaching online for years, so that wasn't any big leap for me 133 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,000 to do. But now the students wanted to be back on campus. So 134 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,039 yeah, we had a lot of rules in place masking up social distancing and 135 00:10:43,159 --> 00:10:48,120 we were back on campus almost right away. Oh wow, was it successful? 136 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:52,320 And were people able to stay healthy? Mostly parties right where the discipline 137 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,240 begins to fall apart. I think, particularly when you're dealing with young people 138 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:00,519 have stayed healthy. So I'm happy about that. Although it's Funny and I 139 00:11:00,519 --> 00:11:03,320 talked about this. The three of us saw each other at crime Con, 140 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,720 which was not a safe environment, and we know dozens of people that came 141 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,120 home from crime Con with COVID. We weren't as careful as we normally are, 142 00:11:15,279 --> 00:11:18,000 so it does happen. And if you remember, I walked up to 143 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:24,519 you with the mask on you had. Was it the blood spattered mask or 144 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:28,840 what it? Yeah, I got that from the Savannah Crime Expo the year 145 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:31,360 before. That's right, Well, that appropriate one to wear. Yeah, 146 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,480 no, absolutely, But you were one of the few people that I saw, 147 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,000 and Kristen and I are usually very disciplined in our own lives, but 148 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,159 there I just felt, oh, here we go. No one else for 149 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,559 the most part, no one else was wearing a mask except for doctor Ramslin, 150 00:11:46,639 --> 00:11:50,320 of course, the smartest person in the room. The rest of us. 151 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,879 I just herew my hands up in the air, and it wasn't very 152 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:56,200 smart, quite frankly. But I did think it was hard to make a 153 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,799 decision because if you're trying to engage with people, especially if you want them 154 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,279 to walk up to your table. So I didn't have that, Yes, 155 00:12:01,639 --> 00:12:05,240 we had that issue. If you want people to walk up to your table. 156 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,440 You want to seem warm, open, as there's a lot of politics 157 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,559 involved that we choose or choose not to wear a mask, and so you're 158 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,720 trying to be as inviting to everybody as possible. So I think it was 159 00:12:16,759 --> 00:12:20,559 a very difficult thing. I don't know that I would have had a table 160 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:24,720 in a circumstance like that myself, but I was able to stay away from 161 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:30,759 where crowded things happened. I didn't eat in restaurants. I really stayed away 162 00:12:30,799 --> 00:12:33,879 from stuff. So I think that was helpful. And even on the elevator, 163 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,879 I had people appreciating when they'd seen me massed up. Thank you. 164 00:12:37,919 --> 00:12:41,559 Because I'm an elevator obviously you're trapped in a small space, and I just 165 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:45,320 figured, who cares, I'll do what I want to do. Yeah for 166 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,840 us, because it was our first time with our Mind Over Murder podcast on 167 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,320 podcast Row. We've been there as participants, but we'd never presented our little 168 00:12:54,360 --> 00:13:00,320 podcast. And also both of us wanted to be recognized. Oh yes, 169 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:03,000 hey Kristen, hey Bill. That kind of thing we felt was so important. 170 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,200 We were discussing it at length beforehand. What are we going to do? 171 00:13:07,399 --> 00:13:13,399 We're usually so careful. It's even still difficult because I was just at 172 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,919 the Writer's Police Academy conference. That's a lot of hands on st four days. 173 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,320 Yeah, it's still difficult to know what to do. And in that 174 00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:24,480 situation, same thing, you were careful. I was as careful as I 175 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:30,279 could be. But you're in closed spaces, you're in hotels, you're eating. 176 00:13:30,799 --> 00:13:33,399 We had group breakfast and I tried to sit away from people, but 177 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,320 of course I was word of the speakers, so they wanted to come and 178 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,080 talk to me. I can't have your mask on while you're eating. They're 179 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,840 always going to be those situations. So far it worked, and at the 180 00:13:43,919 --> 00:13:48,200 sales, you've managed to make it work without having the students go back home 181 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:54,039 or whatever. You stayed on campus. We stayed on campus certain we had 182 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,879 constant monitoring. We had a random selection where we had to go get tested 183 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,440 professors and students, so you never knew it to be singled out and you 184 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:09,799 had to go today to get tested. We had IP a student tested positive 185 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,399 or was near somebody, we'd get messages and then we'd have to add Zoom 186 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:18,039 into our classes so that student could come in on Zoom that they would be 187 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:24,200 quarantined. We actually rented hotel rooms to quarantine SOW, so we did. 188 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:28,120 We spent a lot of money. We did a lot to accommodate their desire 189 00:14:28,159 --> 00:14:30,960 to be on campus. But yeah, it's tough. Do you feel like 190 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,600 it was maybe easier for them because they did not have to transition from home 191 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:37,039 to back to school. Do you feel like they maybe had an easier time 192 00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:43,200 than other college And I don't think so, because social distancing. They want 193 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,519 to be in campus, because they want to have that campus experience. And 194 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:48,639 then we're saying, oh, but six feet apart, masks up. I 195 00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:52,159 don't know that they actually did. Personally think it was still I think it 196 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,039 was still a challenging time. I think it still continues to be challenging time 197 00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,039 for sure. So you talked a little bit already about working on the documentary 198 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,879 about bt K, But I know you do other work with the television industry, 199 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,679 both as an executive producer, consultant and on screen expert. So what 200 00:15:09,759 --> 00:15:13,720 are some of the other productions that you've either worked on recently or have worked 201 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,480 on in the past that you particularly enjoyed. Thanks for the question, because 202 00:15:18,559 --> 00:15:22,240 I'm so excited about Murder House split. That was my idea, came out 203 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,440 of one of my classes, and I pitched it to one of my buddies 204 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,440 at Sony and they and then we went all over the place pitching and everyone 205 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:33,279 thought, this is such a great idea. We had a sizzle reo, 206 00:15:33,399 --> 00:15:37,519 we did all kinds of fun things, but it still took some time, 207 00:15:37,559 --> 00:15:41,960 and then the pandemic. Jess says, we were getting season one underway. 208 00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:48,639 The pandemic happened and killed the first network that picked it up. It got 209 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:52,440 picked up again, so season two is coming out in August. I'm so 210 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:56,399 excited about it. We have six houses that we redid, including the Jodi 211 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,679 Aria's house. Oh Wow, which was a stunning because they had not really 212 00:16:00,759 --> 00:16:06,159 cleaned that up that murder site. When we picked up a rug there was 213 00:16:06,879 --> 00:16:14,399 still blood. Oh my gosh, you are kidding. Never professionally cleaned. 214 00:16:14,519 --> 00:16:18,600 Apparently not. And that's not the only one. We had another one where 215 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,600 a guy had dismembered his wife in the shower. Wow. And they basically 216 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,159 rest him while he's cooking around the stove. And so this young couple comes 217 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:32,600 along and finds this pretty little blue house overlooking the ocean and at a great 218 00:16:32,639 --> 00:16:37,039 price as they buy it and find out it's the Blue murder House. So 219 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,559 when we went in and pulled up floor tiles and there was blood, still 220 00:16:41,919 --> 00:16:45,679 holy slow. So I guess when you find that amazing phenomenal house with the 221 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:48,879 price too good to be true, just be ready. I think, still 222 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,080 buy it, but just be ready that there's gonna be some creepies up and 223 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:57,679 then call us great renovation for the murder site. I was wondering how people 224 00:16:57,759 --> 00:17:03,519 might feel from a real estate perspective. Would they really want their house featured 225 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:08,720 on your television series. You wouldn't believe how popular this is, and they 226 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:14,759 get a really beautiful, expensive renovation for free. There is that. Yeah. 227 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:17,839 Now we have not really had any trouble with that, and most of 228 00:17:17,839 --> 00:17:22,400 them excite from Joe to Aria's house, have been in California because of the 229 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,799 expensive travel and all the COVID restrictions and whatnot. But it really hasn't been 230 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:30,839 that hard to find houses. There are laws in place for if a murder 231 00:17:30,839 --> 00:17:36,039 has happened, but after three years no longer in place, so people can 232 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,000 buy houses and not know they have a murder house, and then they find 233 00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:42,920 out and they know something's creepy about that spot. They do want a completely 234 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,039 new look to it, and they love it. Everyone's been really happy with 235 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:49,680 all the work we did, and I just love the idea. I think 236 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,880 it's such a cool idea. It's like the coolest mash up ever. Pamela, 237 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,519 my partner and I are both really into all the home renovation shows. 238 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,839 Me too, and we have an old house and we continually work on it, 239 00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:04,119 so we watch all these things at night. And then we're also true 240 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:08,400 crime fans meet more so than Pamela. This is like the perfect mash up 241 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:15,000 true crime and real estate slash old home fix. And I can see how 242 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,920 this is so brilliant. You think to yourself, how come no one else 243 00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:22,440 ever thought of this? And I've had it pitched to me since then by 244 00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:25,920 big production companies, and I've said, it is a good idea, and 245 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,880 we're already doing it. Anyone who has a Roku device just go to the 246 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,839 Roku originals and you see it for free. It's and it's amazing. It's 247 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:40,839 really fun and interesting. Our first house was the Dorothy Puente house where she 248 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:44,920 had buried seven bodies in the yard. Wow, and the people did not 249 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,079 want renovation because the house was cool with historic value and whatnot. And they 250 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,720 but I said, oh, I bet you want a new yard. Oh 251 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:57,000 yeah, Oh my god. They got a beautiful pergola and all kinds of 252 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:02,000 really cool stuff in their yard. Wow. So do you do an overview 253 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:06,559 of the case of what has happened at the house and make prime and design 254 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,319 brought together so you get first the case. Sometimes we find the original detective 255 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,440 and interview them. In a couple of cases, we've had forensic people come 256 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,680 in, Like the blood Illuminal we had a guy come in and do that 257 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,960 to make sure. And then after you get the sense of the case, 258 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:26,359 we bring our two designers in. They talk about what would they do, 259 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720 and then they do it, and then you get the big revealed to the 260 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:33,880 owners. Very similar to the flip shows. Now we didn't flip and we're 261 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,759 actually doing makeovers because we didn't buy these houses, but it's still the same 262 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:44,079 idea that they leave and our people completely redo it and do beautiful stuff. 263 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,359 I love this idea murder house flip and it's available on Roku and I'm sure 264 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:55,240 online as well. Wow. So that's a fantastic idea. We're both sold. 265 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,880 We're there, So we had talked to you a little bit about this 266 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:03,799 before. You're a regular contributor to Psychology Today magazine. What are some of 267 00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:10,200 the topics that you've covered that were important to you? Okay, so about 268 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,960 eleven years ago. Psychology Today. The magazine asks me to be one of 269 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,039 the bloggers, and there's a lot of them who are on the site, 270 00:20:18,039 --> 00:20:21,160 so you're really on the website coming up with blogs, and they asked me 271 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,920 to choose a theme. So I chose shadow boxing because dark stuff is my 272 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,200 thing and for the past ten years I've been writing. I think I have 273 00:20:30,319 --> 00:20:33,079 well over five hundred blogs on that site right now. Wow. I might 274 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,160 write about suicide because that's one of my special areas. I might write about 275 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,519 kids who kill because it's also something I study a lot. I might write 276 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,000 about is certainly right about serial colors? People who want to beat Ted Bundy. 277 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,160 That's a popular feature. I've done that three times because there's a lot 278 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,640 of people who want to beat Ted Bundy. He murderabilia collectors was a recent 279 00:20:52,720 --> 00:21:00,440 one. I look at cold cases, I look at cognitive issues in investigation. 280 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,200 There's so many different things paranormal stuff I do, and that's one of 281 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:08,680 the things that my Annie Hunter, my character will do. She'll take on 282 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:15,960 cases with their paranormal dimensions just because she's a debunker, and yet she's not. 283 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:19,599 She's open. Okay, I'm first going to eliminate everything, but if 284 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,440 there's something, I'm open to it. So I talk a lot about those 285 00:21:23,519 --> 00:21:26,640 kinds of things as well, because this is fun. I have a book 286 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,559 called Honta Crime Scenes, which is a lot of fun to do. In 287 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:33,519 fact, that's going to be part of the Savannah Crime Expo this year. 288 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:37,839 Agreed, We're looking forward to seeing you there. My co writer is going 289 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,319 to be there. I'm the scully of the team. They work with psychics 290 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,240 and all this stuff, and I'm like, okay, prove it to me. 291 00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:48,000 I like it. And this Annie Hunter, is there any chance that 292 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:55,759 she's a tea blonde, whole degreed psychologist. Fight Yeah. And she's a 293 00:21:55,839 --> 00:22:06,000 podcaster, very interesting podcast is called PSI apps. I have no idea where 294 00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:08,200 you get your ideas. I really don't. It's like they come out of 295 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:12,720 ether somehow. It was actually I will tell you it was during a pitch 296 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,599 to a showtime crew and they turned down the pitch. But then they said, 297 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:23,480 why are you writing what you do stand yeah, you said, oh 298 00:22:23,559 --> 00:22:26,400 yeah, in my copious free time. I think I'll do that. All 299 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,720 of my time is taken up with whatever I'm writing, because why not, 300 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,440 That's what that's my life, It's what I do. I love it. 301 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,200 You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 302 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:49,440 our sponsors, We're back here at Mind over Murder. I was trying to 303 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,759 figure out, like, when do you sleep? You've written seventy books. 304 00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:57,000 I don't know how you, but I do because I think sleep and exercise 305 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:02,359 are very important to being able to be productive. So yes, I do. 306 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,160 I definitely do. I know. Kristen and I are both still trying 307 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,519 to get out a first book done. So what's your book? Mine? 308 00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:14,759 No Surprise will be the story of the Colonial Parkway murders, and Kristen's also 309 00:23:15,039 --> 00:23:18,200 working on a book, and I love her idea as well. Mine is 310 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:25,039 called Battle Scars, and it is about the surviving victims of crime and how 311 00:23:25,079 --> 00:23:30,160 they cope and how they ultimately get through the struggle of what happens once you 312 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,039 have lived with murder and its consequences. And so that's how I got to 313 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:36,920 know Bill as I cold called him and said, I'd like to interview you 314 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:38,720 from my book Good Idea. Yeah, it's a great I think it's a 315 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:45,000 good idea. School just ended, So Kristen has a little more time now. 316 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,680 I do need to do some writing, yes, percent, But then 317 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,319 she and I have twelve other things going on, all of them very exciting. 318 00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:55,400 So we're going to try to figure out how to do them all this 319 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,680 summer. I get it, but it's really about managing your time. And 320 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,440 for me, I can't not write. Yes, I have. I understand 321 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:04,599 that. It just flows. I have to sit right down first thing, 322 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:10,119 start writing. Yeah, I love that. I definitely understand that. So 323 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,160 you had sent me a blog post that I particularly liked, and it was 324 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,720 from May twenty twenty one, and it was titled the Number one Blunder of 325 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:22,839 True Crime Sluice, which is a great title anyway, because we are victims 326 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,880 advocates and we're experts in the Colonial Parkway murders and we do have to field 327 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:30,799 tips on the regular. This was particularly interesting to us. So tell us 328 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:37,319 what the biggest blender is that citizens sluice make when they investigate a true crime. 329 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:41,319 It's a tricky title because there's several mistakes that all wrapped up into one. 330 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:48,319 But the first thing that this is about is the notion that logic equals 331 00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:52,480 truth. Logic is a trickster. It's just a tool, but it makes 332 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,079 you feel good if you can build the cases that just feels like it's got 333 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,400 all that closure you need, then it feels like it must be right. 334 00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:03,240 But that's really displaying a trick on the brain because the brain always seeks closure, 335 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,880 it always seeks coherence and consistency, which is not to say accuracy. 336 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,759 And one of the problems then becomes And this, by the way, isn't 337 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:17,279 just amateurs. Cops are also prone to this as well. I was looking 338 00:25:17,319 --> 00:25:22,079 for I know a lot about cognitive errors like confirmation bias and whatnot. You 339 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,839 hear that all over the place, and I kept I was talking to this 340 00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:29,160 cognist of psychologists and saying, how could it be one where you think you've 341 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,480 got all the facts of a case and so you build your idea on it, 342 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:36,640 and you're wrong. You don't have all the facts, and so you've 343 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,240 built the wrong idea. But you don't know what is that? And she 344 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,680 said, I don't know, I don't know, And then I was reading 345 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:48,720 Daniel Kaneman, the foremost cognitive psychologist in the world, and there it was. 346 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,559 Whizziati is how he describes it. Whizziati what is all there is? 347 00:25:53,599 --> 00:26:00,519 And that is something that true crime slus are very grown to did not necessarily 348 00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:04,960 of their fault is because the human brain is always reaching for closure. It 349 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,480 does not like ambiguity, does not like things open ended. And so what 350 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,039 use all there is or whiziati is the idea that you've done your work, 351 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:18,319 you've collected your fact and you think you've got them all, but you might 352 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,119 be wrong. And we're actually seeing that right now with many people revisiting some 353 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:29,359 of the old narratives. And what's happening is those people who bought the old 354 00:26:29,519 --> 00:26:34,000 narratives are resisting any new stuff. I think the John Wayne Gaysi case is 355 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,680 a good example, this idea that this sex trafficker John David Norman might have 356 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,759 been part of what was going on, and the John W. Gaysi actually 357 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:45,599 had accomplices who never got charged by the police. And I've seen people who 358 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,000 think they are experts on GAYSI say that's just not true. None of that's 359 00:26:51,039 --> 00:26:56,039 true. Oh, we have facts there are things out there that prove but 360 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,519 that's what's happening. People who cling to the old narratives have that whiz siati 361 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:06,559 thing. What I see is all there is those narratives must yield to new 362 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,240 evidence. They must yield to new evidence, and we have to rebuild them. 363 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,480 And sometimes the new evidence isn't new evidence, is just a new way 364 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,079 of looking at the case, new logic. So I think Jack the Ripper 365 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,400 is a great example. You ask me about a case, and I think 366 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,759 Jack the Ripper is one of the best. I think I'm the Ripper Ologists 367 00:27:22,759 --> 00:27:26,279 of the Lehigh Valley. Anyway, I read a book of three hundred and 368 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,200 thirty three suspects for Jack the Ripper, and they didn't even have them all. 369 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:33,240 I immediately thought of two more that weren't in the book. Every single 370 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:40,880 one of those people who proposes their suspect believes they have exactly the right one. 371 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:45,640 Books like Case Closed and blah blah blah. Yeah, they've spuned the 372 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:49,920 narrative logically in a way that they have made sense out of it. But 373 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:53,559 boy, if you look at it closely, every one of those narratives takes 374 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,640 logically to ben at Whitechapels several times, and I've seen we might not even 375 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,759 have Jack the Ripper who killed those five, the canonical five as we call 376 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:06,559 them. I think a couple of them don't even belong in the next for 377 00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:11,519 a variety of reasons, and that there are others who were not considered for 378 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:15,400 a variety of reasons who might well be considered if we change a little bit 379 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,759 about the way we look at this case. So Jack the Ripper is a 380 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,079 great case. The Zodiac is another one. How many suspects do we have 381 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,839 for Zodiac? I think every day I hear someone say, oh, we've 382 00:28:26,839 --> 00:28:30,599 solved that one, and now we have not. But if somebody owns it, 383 00:28:32,319 --> 00:28:37,480 there's this emotional investment. I've researched this more than anybody else, so 384 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:42,720 I know, I know the facts. And unfortunately, your emotional investment is 385 00:28:42,839 --> 00:28:48,119 not a guarantee that you have the true story or the right suspect. And 386 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,160 so what's going on with now? Add in podcasting no offense to anyone, 387 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,119 but add in podcasting you have the pressure on because people want their podcast to 388 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,599 stand out. They want to be the one who solved. You know what 389 00:29:00,799 --> 00:29:04,200 happens, and I know you guys have had, but people approach you about 390 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,680 the ones that you're very involved in. What happens is you get these debates, 391 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,240 you get people digging in. Its very much like our political scene today. 392 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,880 You get people digging in. You get some shallow thinking, you get 393 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:22,200 some deeper thinking, many logical leaps to make a case. And that's why 394 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,000 I chose actually the blog that I sent you the Elisa Lamb case. I 395 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,440 thought the documentary and the Cecil Hotel was fabulous in that it showed all these 396 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:36,839 amateur salutes who went into the hotel over and over. They were sure they're 397 00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:40,680 going to solve it. It was such a bizarre case. She disappears and 398 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:45,160 there's footage and an elevator of her looking there's a ghost following her. That's 399 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,039 one of the theories are that she found a hole in the security system and 400 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:52,640 slipped out, or that somebody murdered her and stashed here in a room and 401 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,880 they identified as suspect and they contacted that person and they were all over him 402 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,000 to the point where he was suicide. And he was not the guy. 403 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,799 He did not do anything. He didn't even know her. But the logic 404 00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:11,839 and the ownership and the emotional investment converged in that case where people were just 405 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:18,240 nuts about their own theory and they just she had to have been murdered or 406 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:22,519 she had to have been whatever, and even the police response by the end, 407 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,400 they missed a lot of stuff. But by the end, the I 408 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,480 guess it was the coroner's judgment I thought was wrong. I think it still 409 00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:33,240 remains undetermined because I think it could have easily been suicide, but they have 410 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,559 accidental drowning. I don't think so that was a little too weird. But 411 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,160 even I don't know that I'm right either. Because there are big holes. 412 00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:48,599 What happens is our brain fills in the holes to make it satisfying to us. 413 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,920 And that's I think people have to learn mindfulness about their approach, and 414 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,559 they can do that by teaming up with someone who can point out, oh, 415 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,240 you tend to jump to concludels really fast, so maybe you want to 416 00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:04,599 think a little get some perspective on this. So they could team up with 417 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,079 someone, or they could just do a practice of looking at a case from 418 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,319 multiple angles and not just their favorite one. So there are things that I 419 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:17,880 do and I teach them my courses to try to avoid this instant closure, 420 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,400 this urgency and permanence that settle in with people who have what we find to 421 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,359 be a high need preclosure, and a high need preclosure is a personality trait. 422 00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:32,799 A lot of police officers have it because they're attracted to law enforcement for 423 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:37,240 that versus wrong law and order, good versus evil kind of idea about law 424 00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:42,880 enforcement. They're attracted to because they already have that sense of things are simple 425 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,880 and they want to put bad guys in jail, and they want to put 426 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,960 bad guys jail and be yeah, exactly. We're seeing this in the Colonial 427 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:59,799 Parkway murders, where investigators get so locked into a certain theory, and unfortunately 428 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:05,480 these are key players in the investigation, and when we bring them information which 429 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,319 we think is at least worth checking out regarding other suspects, they'll respond with, 430 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,880 oh, we'll put that in the file. And now, after years 431 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,039 of this, we realize that's code for we're literally going to put it in 432 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:22,720 a desk drawer and never deal with it because we're locked into and they still 433 00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:28,200 can't prove that their leading suspect is the right one. And so I was 434 00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:35,319 glad to hear you say that law enforcement investigators can fall into these same traps, 435 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:43,000 certainly, and there are programs training police officers about cognitive errors like this 436 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:47,920 to help them not fall into those traps. And those programs are devised by 437 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400 other cops who have seen it happen to them, and they have worked with 438 00:32:52,519 --> 00:33:01,200 psychologists to devise exercises braining to help younger officers avoid the trap of some of 439 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:06,480 these errors. But I was very struck by something you said a moment ago, 440 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,720 Catherine, which is we were talking about the at least a lamb case, 441 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:13,519 which obviously had great elements of mystery, and it had been hyped up 442 00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:16,200 in that sort of thing. But even when you said a moment ago that 443 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:21,000 you believe this could be an accidental drowning or a suicide, then the next 444 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,839 thing you said was, but I could be wrong. And I don't hear 445 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,960 that very often with the investigators that we've worked with, particularly in the Colonial 446 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,720 Parkway murders, they get very definitive and they don't want to look at anything 447 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:42,519 that's outside their narrow focus. Second, guessing someone is to that to their 448 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:45,559 mind is tandemount to saying they're wrong, and that's not that doesn't go over. 449 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,200 It's difficult and my training's in philosophy. I was a philosophy professor, 450 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,799 so I can float with ambiguity, but you need to be trained in that 451 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:59,279 to be able to do it, and I don't find many investigators able to 452 00:33:59,319 --> 00:34:04,279 do it less they've had some kind of training and awareness of mistakes made. 453 00:34:04,759 --> 00:34:08,800 That's why I think some of these who are out there devising the programs who 454 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:14,400 had made these mistakes are the best teachers, because they're in law enforcement and 455 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:19,039 they saw what they did, They saw the assumptions they made. They saw 456 00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,679 that they went down the wrong path and landed on the wrong suspect and harm 457 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,159 somebody's life. And then they had to admit where did they go wrong? 458 00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:31,960 What were their blind spots? And that's not easy for anybody to do, 459 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:37,079 but in particular not someone with a high need proclosure. You mentioned Jack the 460 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,760 Ripper, of course in the Lisa Lamb. Are there some other cases that 461 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,920 you can think of? It seemed to be stymied, like under the weight 462 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,199 of too many competing theories and too many sleuths. Zodiac for sure, definitely, 463 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,519 I had somebody to tell me that BTK is is Zodiac killer, and 464 00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:57,239 she wanted a book that was her mindset where she was going to and here 465 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,920 were her reasons why she was right, and all of them were ridiculous, 466 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:06,599 all of them. She nevertheless got a self published book. She got booked 467 00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:09,559 out of it because she was certain she had made a good logical case. 468 00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:13,400 Like, for example, he was in the Air Force, so even though 469 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,039 he was overseas during the Zodiac killings, he could have gotten on a plane 470 00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:20,440 and flown over there and committed the mursion, gone right back to his base 471 00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:23,800 with nobody knowing what was going on. And the reason he hasn't admitted to 472 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,719 them and added them to his list, which would, by the way, 473 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,039 make him ultra famous, which is what he wants. The reason he hasn't 474 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:35,760 done that is because he's afraid for his soul. Okay, I have talked 475 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,960 to him, and you have not not afraid for his soul. He spent 476 00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:44,519 hours, years with the man. Yeah, and she has never met him. 477 00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:49,800 But her theory was this is the reason he hasn't copped the Zodiac murders 478 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,239 night or did that come from? Because she needed something to fill in the 479 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:59,280 hole, and that was a convenient way to fill in the hole. It's 480 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:04,159 wrong, but it made logical sense. To her, so it worked. 481 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,079 That takes a lot of I see that a lot, but even I think 482 00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:12,199 the Colonial Parkway as we took this on for our Haunted Crime Scenes weekend, 483 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:17,119 and we immediately saw just setting people up for confirmation bias by the very name 484 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:22,800 Colonial Parkway Murders and the Colonial Parkway serial Killer. You're setting people up to 485 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,960 think in a certain way. Yeah, and then you dig into the case 486 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,599 and go did this happened? And I have said on Mind over Murder in 487 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,800 more recent months, and I think this has made some people uncomfortable. I 488 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:40,400 have to say something. I am personally responsible for promoting the term Colonial Parkway 489 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,840 Murders, as is Kristin, although I'm putting more to blame on myself in 490 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,559 this example. I have a longer history. We've promoted that name, not 491 00:36:49,639 --> 00:36:53,760 with a commercial band. Would just we know that the eight families have more 492 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:59,239 leverage together than we do a part. But now, interestingly, I've been 493 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,360 saying more publicly in the last year or two, I would say that the 494 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,639 more I learned, the less convinced I am that the Colonial Parkway Murders are 495 00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:13,159 actually a murder series. And I think without question in my mind, and 496 00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,719 I could be wrong. I'm pretty certain that some or all of the Colonial 497 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,960 Parkway murders will fall off the table. In other words, they're not all 498 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,039 related, and there's obviously things that we know that we can't necessarily talk about 499 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:31,280 on the podcast. But I actually said recently on our podcast that I think 500 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:37,360 the phrase Colonial Parkway murders is the biggest rabbit hole of all because it's actually 501 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,719 not helpful. These murders need to be looked at individually, and they may 502 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,519 be related, but I don't think so. And until you know what happened 503 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:50,440 to the missing couple, there's a shot that you can do with that absolutely. 504 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,599 Keith Colin Cassandra Haley's disappearance is looked at as part of a murder series. 505 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,519 I think given the fact that they've been gone for over thirty years, 506 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,719 they're not coming back tomorrow. I do think they were murdered, but is 507 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,199 it related to the others, I don't know. And even if they're murdered, 508 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,800 how are they murdered? Is it the same? Is it different? 509 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,360 Where are the bodies, what happened to them? All of that matters in 510 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,639 terms of profile. Wanted to string these together, you need to have more 511 00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:21,920 about them in the mix, and you can't just dump them in there because 512 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,199 they were a couple. I've seen people do, and it's interesting. We've 513 00:38:24,199 --> 00:38:29,960 had somebody contact us recently who and this has happened before, but this particular 514 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:32,920 gentleman is very passionate about this, and he's a smart guy. He thinks 515 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,639 the Zodiac and the Colonial Parkway case are related, that they are the same 516 00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:43,800 killer. And it's not the first time we've heard it's it seems like a 517 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:45,679 long shot. We get it a lot. Then it's got to be Dennis 518 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,719 Rader. Yeah, absolutely, Just show Jack the Ripper in there and j 519 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,039 Chelms while we're at it, since he's the great grandson of Jack the Ripper. 520 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,679 Now Dennis Raider. Where is Dennis Rader? By the way, Dennis 521 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,440 Raider is elder Rodo Mattim Security Prison. In fact, I just spoke to 522 00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:05,760 him a couple of days ago. I was going to say, if you 523 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,000 needed to run something past him, you probably could. Oh, we were 524 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,960 not laughing about the Zodiac thing on Sunday. As a matter of fact, 525 00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:16,519 there you go. You asked already because he because it started with somebody calling 526 00:39:16,599 --> 00:39:22,360 him and telling him that the graves of Dick Hickock and Perry Smith were in 527 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,159 Florida. Oh, and those are the clutter killer two clutter killers. And 528 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,840 I said, no, they're not, because this no, this woman told 529 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,400 me they're in Florida and that they were dug up to prove that they were 530 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,800 the killers of this other family in nineteen fifty times. Oh my god, 531 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,320 I said, personal, No, is that where their graves are. Secondly, 532 00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:45,159 that whole case has nothing to do with them. That was another case 533 00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:50,800 of putting together some logic and making Oh, they were in Florida and they 534 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,519 killed a family four, so that makes sense that they must have done this 535 00:39:53,559 --> 00:39:58,760 other one. And so all of the logical leaps were made to make them 536 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,159 be at the scene even though they never They said themselves they never were. 537 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,800 But then okay, but they and they said under a polygraph they never were. 538 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,039 So then it became polygraphs during the nineteen sixties weren't any good. You 539 00:40:09,119 --> 00:40:13,760 know. I always had the ambiguity factor to move things around. Oh, 540 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:19,760 witnesses. Witnesses are their memory we know from research isn't very good. Always 541 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,960 have that ambiguity so that you can twist it to make your logic fit. 542 00:40:24,159 --> 00:40:31,159 And that is the number one problem for amateur sleuths in cold case researches. 543 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:37,119 You're gonna have holes, and you're going to be tempted fill those holes with 544 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,760 logic and ideas that make a coherent story, and then you're going to believe 545 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,920 the story because it feels right, and that feeling is the most misleading part 546 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,400 of it. Does it ever make you frustrated when you talk to people like 547 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,000 that who were just okay, yes, but okay, yes, but here's 548 00:40:53,039 --> 00:40:55,639 why I'm right, because that would infuriate me. I don't know how you 549 00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:59,519 do it. Yes, in a way, it does, but it doesn't 550 00:40:59,519 --> 00:41:05,000 because I know about cognitive psychology and the human brain automatically moves in that direction. 551 00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:08,800 It just automatically wants those holes filled, and it will create stuff. 552 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:14,480 We know from jury research. If they don't hear things that they're listening for 553 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,320 from one side or the other when they go deliberate, they will fill in 554 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,800 the holes themselves. We know that, and not because they want to do 555 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,280 a bad job. It's because of the way the brain works. So I 556 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,199 think that knowledge helps me not to be frustrated. But there does come a 557 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:37,480 point where there's no reason to argue anymore, have a good day signing off. 558 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:42,239 That's it for now. Oh jeez, especially if they really are so 559 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,400 sure they're right that fin it becomes there's no point in really having a discussion 560 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:51,000 in those kinds. And I know you guys have experienced this because you're in 561 00:41:51,039 --> 00:41:54,400 one of those cases where multiple people want to get at it and somebody wants 562 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:59,000 to solve it. Multiple people want to solve it. True Confessions. Before 563 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:05,760 we signed on today, five minutes before we signed on, Kristen mentioned something 564 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:12,519 to me about a guy who is insisting that he knows who committed the Colonial 565 00:42:12,519 --> 00:42:17,079 Parkway murders. Yeah, all of this is based on his psychic ability and 566 00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:23,000 nothing else. He hasn't provided us with a single nothing meaningful, And we 567 00:42:23,159 --> 00:42:27,800 finally had to kick him off some of our Facebook pages, and now we're 568 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:32,079 looking at maybe kicking him off our YouTube pages because he keeps insisting this man, 569 00:42:32,199 --> 00:42:37,920 with no evidence, is responsible for the murder of Donna Hall and Mike 570 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,119 Margaret, which is another couple's homicide in nineteen eighty four, a little bit 571 00:42:42,159 --> 00:42:46,400 before the Colonial Parkway murders over in Henrico County, Virginia, near Richmond. 572 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:54,360 But this guy is just insisting that this former cop committed the murders with no 573 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,519 evidence to back it out. And I'm not saying he is one hundred percent 574 00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:01,440 wrong, because I couldn't say that. But what's happening now is he's so 575 00:43:01,599 --> 00:43:07,719 insistent that other people now are asking us what about this guy? What about 576 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,199 this guy? His name keeps coming up, and as recently as last night, 577 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,840 I was answering on social media and I was like, who is this 578 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,199 guy? And I realized, oh, yeah, this is the retired cop 579 00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:23,840 that our odd ball, I'll call him that. Thank you, keeps insisting, 580 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:29,880 and it's amazing how this stuff, repeated at nauseum, begins to gain 581 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,199 traction. People are like, what about someone? Shouldn't he be looked at? 582 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:37,360 And we just spent two especially psychic yeah and special vision. We've just 583 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,840 thrown our hands up in the air. What do we do with this information? 584 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:47,440 And is it like he's providing us anything really meaningful that would indicate why 585 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:52,880 this retired police officer should be looked at for these murders. Now he's probably 586 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,079 done that thing. I've read enough and I put it together logically, and 587 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:01,920 now the patina of supernatural comes into play. I actually have a character called 588 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:07,320 Monroe the murder Mentalist and he calls him three Am and he has that, 589 00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:12,639 but it's hard to tell whether he's a charlatan or he really has something. 590 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,920 But many followers because people love the idea that, in fact, I would 591 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,880 say our Hornda Crime Scenes Weekend is about the idea that once you had a 592 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:28,079 standstill with regular things, can you bring in other kinds of methods that are 593 00:44:28,119 --> 00:44:30,920 not used by cops. And I think it's fun, but as I said, 594 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,920 I'm the Scully where I don't buy into it. And yeah, I've 595 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,960 seen some interesting things where people doing automatic writing over here and something else over 596 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,199 there and they come together and have something similar that had nothing to do with 597 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,000 any of the material we had in the case. That's interesting. I'm open. 598 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,960 I need a lot of proof. Sometimes people don't. We're going to 599 00:44:52,039 --> 00:44:57,599 wrap this episode and continue with doctor Katherine Ramsland on our next episode of Mind 600 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,119 Never Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 601 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,360 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 602 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:21,880 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by 603 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:27,360 Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is 604 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,559 distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 605 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,920 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 606 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,639 Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 607 00:45:40,679 --> 00:46:00,400 Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder my