1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,719 Because repentance is about admitting that we are against God and turning back towards Him 2 00:00:05,759 --> 00:00:08,880 and re establishing relationship. Because we're in the wrong, we take on the 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,039 blame. And the more we take on the blame, you know, we 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:28,440 allow God to be God. This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the symbolic 5 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:40,960 world. So hello everyone. I have the great joy to be here with 6 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:46,159 Father Joseph Lucas. Father Joseph is the priest and pastor at Christ the Savior 7 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:51,920 Cathedral, the Ocia Cathedral in Florida. He's also become a good friend and 8 00:00:52,079 --> 00:00:57,920 he is the editor of the Rule of Faith journal that you can look up 9 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:02,039 on Amazon. It is an Orthodox journal theology. But here I have him 10 00:01:02,039 --> 00:01:04,879 here with me today because we had amazing discussions when I was there. He 11 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,760 has published his own thesis on the question of sacrifice in Saint Cyril of Alexandria. 12 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,480 I am lucky to have a copy of it here, and I thought 13 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,319 that it would be really wonderful to explore that with him now and look at 14 00:01:18,359 --> 00:01:22,640 how the church fathers, obviously especially Saint Cyril, sees the question of sacrifice 15 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,719 in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, how Christ transformed the question 16 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,959 of sacrifice and just in general the insight that he provides. And so Father 17 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,040 Joseph, thanks for coming with us, Thank you for inviting me. And 18 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,799 so when we talked, you said you had watched I think even one of 19 00:01:37,799 --> 00:01:41,920 my videos and you thought there was some interesting connections to make with the manner 20 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,239 in which Saint Cyril presents the question of sacrifice. So maybe you can start 21 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:48,280 us there and tell us what it is that you think, what insight you 22 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:52,040 think that he provides. Well, I think, for one thing, it's 23 00:01:52,079 --> 00:01:57,799 it's great because Saint Cyril really had a he focused his career. I would 24 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,719 say he focused his career on trying to understand the Old Testament and how the 25 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,640 New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. And because sacrifice is such 26 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,919 an important part of the law, he had to deal with it a lot 27 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,800 and it comes up frequently throughout his writing. So he gives, you know, 28 00:02:14,159 --> 00:02:17,240 a very deep interpretation of it. But it's also important, I think, 29 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,319 to understand it as part of his overall biblical interpretation, like what he's 30 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:23,919 trying to do with the law, how he's trying to bring the law into 31 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,560 you know, into the Church in a way that can be understood properly, 32 00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:32,240 and so sacrifice, I think is at the root of that. And so 33 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:38,479 what does he think sacrifice is for, Well, I think the very first, 34 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:44,080 the very first reference, if you go sort of chronologically through the Bible, 35 00:02:44,199 --> 00:02:47,960 the first sacrifice is canaan Able and he mentions it two places. So 36 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,639 he has his commentary on the Pansaateeoic, so he mentions, you know, 37 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,039 he goes into it there, and then he also brings it up again in 38 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:59,719 his commentary on John, which is much later in his career, and between 39 00:02:59,759 --> 00:03:02,120 the two of them we come away with a few a few ideas. And 40 00:03:02,159 --> 00:03:07,240 the first one I think that's that's really important is the idea that sacrifice is 41 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:13,680 innate in human nature because there's no commandment. God doesn't tell Canaonable bise sacrifice. 42 00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:15,400 He never says, you know, here's how you do it. They 43 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,319 just spontaneously do it. There's lots of ways that he could come out that 44 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:22,800 they could say, well, there's other things not written and you know in 45 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,039 the text. That would be one way of looking at it. But St. 46 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:29,919 Cyo approaches it that that there's this natural desire for humans to want to 47 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,759 offer to God something to be, to sacrifice to God. He doesn't flesh 48 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:38,080 that out until a little bit later what that ultimate sacrifice should be, but 49 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:43,639 in that context he said, it's just something natural. And so because one 50 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,199 of them was a shepherd and one was a farmer, they just took from 51 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:52,759 what gifts they had and naturally wanted to give something to God. And when 52 00:03:52,759 --> 00:03:57,800 I when I first read that, it struck me because you know, that 53 00:03:57,879 --> 00:04:01,120 kind of ties in with, say like an anthrople logical or perennial idea of 54 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,560 the fact that sacrifices is in every single culture throughout the world, right that 55 00:04:05,599 --> 00:04:12,759 innate desires there people want to do something for whatever it is, the numinus, 56 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,199 the supernatural, you know, there's whatever they perceive God to be. 57 00:04:16,439 --> 00:04:23,759 They want to make offerings. And so the very first offering that's recorded then 58 00:04:23,759 --> 00:04:28,560 in the scripture of canaan Abel is about that innate desire and then how God 59 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:30,800 responds to that desire, the right way to do it and the wrong way 60 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,360 to do it, So its ables the right way to do it canane's the 61 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,480 wrong way to do it. So that's kind of where it starts out. 62 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:41,120 So for sure, at the outset. It's important to notice that since Hero 63 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,639 doesn't see the sacrifice of canaan Abel as in any way a propitiatory sacrifice, 64 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,680 he doesn't see it as something that is like kind of sacrifice for our sins, 65 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:55,160 the way that a lot of people think sacrifices only is only four right, 66 00:04:55,199 --> 00:04:58,279 And I think, well, a good point would be to define what 67 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,040 we mean by pronunciation. So if we mean propitiation in the sense of just 68 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,439 it's pleasing to God, that anacceptable definition. Father Stephen Young and I just 69 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,079 he was here last week and we had a long talk about that and the 70 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,680 fact that they can be used in that way, right. But the problem 71 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:17,399 is is that it came to me in the West assuaging or removing anger that 72 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,759 God has. Right, So it's like, so that's kind of a pagan 73 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:26,839 definition, and definitely you won't find that pagan definition in Saint Cyril. And 74 00:05:26,959 --> 00:05:29,439 later on when he starts talking about the law, that's when we get into 75 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,199 how he defines it. And probably the word I use a lot of expiation 76 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:36,639 in English because it has the it clearly connects to what Saint Cyril's trying to 77 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,519 do, but definitely not with the King enable sacrifice. There's no sense of 78 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,959 God being upset with them and they need to to, you know, somehow 79 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,680 turn God's face back towards them or something like that, and them to be 80 00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:55,879 in commune with God. It's just it's Saint Cyril sees it as a natural 81 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,759 desire to want to offer to God, to be in relationship with God in 82 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:03,160 some way. Yeah, it's kind of yeah, it is. It's almost 83 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,279 it's like to give back to God or to offer back with that which has 84 00:06:06,319 --> 00:06:11,759 been received. And so, I mean this is a I know, maybe 85 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,560 he doesn't, but what does he see as Cain's misoffering because in the text 86 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,199 it's very vague. It just says basically, God doesn't accept it, does 87 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,160 he does he talk about that? Well, the subtugen gives us a little 88 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,199 clue, and he hones in on this because the sotuogen says, you did 89 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:31,240 not rightly divide it, Okay, So so he picks up on that. 90 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,439 You know, So what does it mean to not rightly divide it? What 91 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:39,079 means he offered the leftovers? Basically that's how you know, to paraphrase, 92 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,040 and like, what so you have a not for the best part exactly right? 93 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,279 He didn't take the very best an offer to God. He took what 94 00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:49,199 he already didn't want. Interesting that that would also connect it in some ways 95 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:55,480 to the classic story of the sacrifice of Prometheus, like in the Greek myth, 96 00:06:55,519 --> 00:06:59,839 where Prometheus is supposed to like the people are supposed to offer the me 97 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:02,279 but then he offers the bones and just hides it with the skin so that 98 00:07:02,399 --> 00:07:05,879 you know, they trick the gods basically. Yeah, So that's so. 99 00:07:05,879 --> 00:07:09,800 So it's about disposition from the beginning, and that's kind of that's another theme 100 00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:14,480 that runs throughout Saint Cyril's commentary in the Old Testament, this idea about the 101 00:07:14,519 --> 00:07:17,480 right disposition when you offer what does it mean? So there's an there's an 102 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,439 internalization, you know, it's it's it's what's coming out of the heart that's 103 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:26,040 being exhibited through the external action, you know, to the sacrifice itself. 104 00:07:26,519 --> 00:07:28,920 Now, but I didn't know that about that. In the septuagen there's a 105 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,399 hint about why it is that he the sacrifice. And that's interesting because I 106 00:07:31,399 --> 00:07:34,360 mean, that's that's that's one of the most I mean setuogent is that one 107 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:39,639 of the most ancient testimonies of biblical interpretation we have in the in the translation, 108 00:07:39,759 --> 00:07:42,480 it's like this is how we translated. It means that this is how 109 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,399 we see it. So that's a that's fascinating. And so then so then 110 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,160 after that, I guess Cyril kind of moves into the story of sacrifice. 111 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,600 And so how does he come from this this early sacrifices up to Christ, 112 00:07:55,680 --> 00:08:00,199 Like, how does he see that relationship? Well, it's the way he 113 00:08:00,199 --> 00:08:05,639 he approaches the law in particular, is that everything in the law. So 114 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,399 this is this is part of I think we have to look at how he 115 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:15,920 interprets the scripture, what his exegesis method is. And the first well, 116 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:18,439 I would say, you know, the experts disagree on this, but I 117 00:08:18,759 --> 00:08:22,720 take this side is that his earliest work is called on Worship and Spirit and 118 00:08:22,759 --> 00:08:26,000 Truth. That's the you know, the phrase from Saint John's Gospel. And 119 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,680 there's a debate whether that was first or whether he wrote his commentary and the 120 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,240 Pentituoke first, But it seems that that would make more sense he wrote on 121 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,759 Worshiping, Spirit and Truth first, because he lays out how he's going to 122 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:41,519 interpret the scriptures, and it seems that he followed like throughout his career he 123 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,799 started with then he went on to the Pentetoke, and he kind of moved 124 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:48,440 in chronological order through the scriptures and got to the Gospels and epistles later in 125 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:54,679 his career. And why that's important is because he starts out his book on 126 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,440 Worship and Spirit and Truth with how do we interpret the law and how does 127 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,279 it relate to the Testament? And he has this, he has this probably 128 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:09,720 imaginary interlocutor that he's talking with, and and and this, uh, this 129 00:09:09,799 --> 00:09:13,519 guy is walking along with a copy of the Gospels, and you know, 130 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,360 it's this perfect setup. You know. He says, oh, you know, 131 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,360 Cyril, how do we reconcile these two things? And he quotes first 132 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,279 Matthew when it says when Christ says that not you know that he didn't come 133 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,039 to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. How do we reconcile that 134 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,879 with where he says in the Gospel of John that we're going to worship in 135 00:09:31,919 --> 00:09:33,879 spirit and truth. It seems that he's he's doing away with the law. 136 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:37,799 And then Saint Cyril says, the answer is in Saint Paul, it's the 137 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:43,000 transition from the letter to the spirit. And then he kind of the rest 138 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,399 of that text. He's kind of unpacking what that looks like and applying it 139 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,559 in a kind of a almost looking at like the meta narrative a scripture like 140 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,879 or what what Saint nathanah Will called the scope of scripture, which like, 141 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,000 you know, the sort of arc of story from Genesis all the way to 142 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,639 Revelation. And he goes through and he shows how the two things relate, 143 00:10:05,279 --> 00:10:09,639 and he has some pretty strong things to say about about the Law, Like 144 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,279 he picks up on what Saint Paul says when the law is a type and 145 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,279 the shadow, and so he says, the law is a type and the 146 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,000 shadow and the formation of a piety that is still in travail and has the 147 00:10:20,039 --> 00:10:26,399 beauty of truth hidden within itself. And he says that the law was imperfect 148 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:31,120 only because they weren't ready to interpret it. Through Christ, there's this transition 149 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:35,639 that happens where where the law had its purpose, but it could never be 150 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,919 it could never do what it was meant to do. He says that very 151 00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:41,720 clearly, it's never able to do what it was meant to do until the 152 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:43,399 fulfillment of the law came Christ. And then through the lens of Christ, 153 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:50,360 we understand it in an anagogical or elevated way, and so that's kind of 154 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:56,919 his starting point. So then he applies that to sacrifice. All the sacrifices 155 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:01,200 are in some way pointing to some aspect of what Christ was coming to do. 156 00:11:01,759 --> 00:11:03,480 Mm hmm uh. And so that's that's kind of the way he looks 157 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,840 at it all the way through is he takes these very sacrifices and he reinterprets 158 00:11:07,879 --> 00:11:11,080 them and says, this is how it pertains to Christ, or this is 159 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,679 how it pertains to the Church, you know, sort of this uh type 160 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:20,879 and anti type, you know, relationship throughout all the sacrifices. So can 161 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:24,360 you give us some examples of what like, let's say, let's take one, 162 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:28,840 let's say the Kapoor sacrificeing does he does he talk? Does he? 163 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,759 Oh? Yeah, he deal with that, because that I would love to 164 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:35,399 hear what he how he says about the two like the goat and the sacrifice. 165 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,919 The goat that is given as Azel, Like how does he reconcile that 166 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,320 with Christ? Yeah? So so so as a zel for him is is 167 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:48,720 the devil? It's interesting because because but but it's interesting that he says it's 168 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:52,679 not offered to the devil. Offer to the devil. Uh. You know. 169 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:54,799 Essentially he says that that that would be a myth. He said, 170 00:11:54,799 --> 00:11:58,919 to say that was offered as as azel as the devil would be a myth. 171 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,720 But the idea is that is that. So he starts out with saying 172 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,559 that that the symbolism of the two goats, they have to be absolutely identical. 173 00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:11,720 And the reason is is because they're just two aspects of the same offering, 174 00:12:13,919 --> 00:12:18,679 just two different aspects of the same offering. The first one represents the 175 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:22,720 blood of the goat taken into the temple represents purification or expiation. So it 176 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:28,000 shows the fact that Christ would come to die and through him we are purified 177 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,679 of sin. Okay, So that's the first the meaning of the first half. 178 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:37,639 The second half he does talk about Christ's carrying sin away, connects it 179 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,679 to the ascension. The idea is that Christ going off into the desert land 180 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,600 whereas is Zil is, where the devil is. It's him going hearing hades 181 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:50,200 and then ascending up, rising up, and then ascending up into the heavens. 182 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,840 And then he calls it the untrodden land beyond is paradise. Right, 183 00:12:54,879 --> 00:12:58,600 He goes up to be enthroned in the heavens, and so he sees in 184 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:05,159 a very away. So basically the two goes represent the Crucifixion, resurrection, 185 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,840 and ascension. That's kind of what together they mean. They're all part of 186 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,240 the same offering, but different aspects of the same. So he sees the 187 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:18,639 goat that's cast into the wilderness as resurrection and ascension. Yes, huh, 188 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:22,039 yeah, now he doesn't. He says that he does tie in at one 189 00:13:22,039 --> 00:13:26,200 point and say that that definitely carries away our sins. Yeah, so I 190 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:30,399 can imagine like the herring of Hades. That makes a lot of sense to 191 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,480 think of that in the sense that he takes the sins and and he kind 192 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,080 of goes into it, goes into the world of death, you could say. 193 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,240 But it's interesting to think of it as as ascension. And yeah, 194 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:46,519 that one's kind of surprising. It's a surprising interpretation. Let's see if I 195 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:52,440 find a quote right here, so a good one. So he says that 196 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:58,759 he says he likens himself to the scapegoat in order to be sacrificed for a 197 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,519 sins, So in some sense he connects himself to sin. But then he 198 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,919 says, for he rose and departed to the untrodden land, meaning into the 199 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,080 heavens in some way, carrying our sins to the city on high to present 200 00:14:09,159 --> 00:14:13,960 himself before the Father on our behalf. So it's a it's a it's a 201 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:18,679 weird connection of all of it, taking the sins on, carrying them away, 202 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,759 but then ascending up. And then he'll connect a little bit later to 203 00:14:20,799 --> 00:14:24,600 the idea of him being the high priest mediator, so he curts them up 204 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:30,639 to offer them up before the Father as as our mediator to be purged of 205 00:14:30,639 --> 00:14:33,720 these sins in the heavens. So it's in a sense still at the connected 206 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,679 expiation. Yeah, but it's it's unusual how he connects it to the resurrection 207 00:14:37,799 --> 00:14:41,440 and the ascension up. But he uses that same theme a couple of different 208 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,919 ways with you. He says, the untrodden land, So he's he's connecting 209 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,639 in some ways the paradise with the strange land or a land that we don't 210 00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:54,120 know, like as if the paradise in some ways is using the image of 211 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:56,960 wilderness for paradise like that. To me, that's weird, Like that's a 212 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:03,200 surprise. I have to say, Yeah, it's it's it's it's unusual. 213 00:15:03,279 --> 00:15:05,639 It's it's not what I expected. Because you know, when you when you 214 00:15:05,679 --> 00:15:09,559 first do a cursory reading of like the Father's uh, when you're trying to 215 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,960 try and come up with a hypothesis, you know, for a thesis to 216 00:15:13,159 --> 00:15:16,200 examine the text, that's not what I would have come up with initially. 217 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,200 And then when I you know, of course, you read the text to 218 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,840 let the text teach you, and then you get to these things, you're 219 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,720 like, Okay, he's he's coming at this from a very different perspective than 220 00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:26,440 I thought. Yeah, but it's interesting. I mean, it's it's interesting 221 00:15:26,519 --> 00:15:31,679 definitely. And so uh and so what let's say, can you think of 222 00:15:31,759 --> 00:15:37,200 a so does he still have this idea also of the offering to God, 223 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,559 like that the crucifixion isn't offering in the sense of the canaan able sacrifice? 224 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,480 Does he does he talk about that a little bit. So he's he's fine 225 00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:48,840 with saying that the offering was made towards the father. All right, So 226 00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:52,159 this is poor because it's not until about the tenth century that they work out 227 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:56,840 this whole idea that that that the son is also the receiver. But he 228 00:15:56,879 --> 00:16:00,799 does mention elsewhere that the Son as God also receives the offer, so he 229 00:16:00,919 --> 00:16:04,639 kind of presages that a bit by about five centuries, which gets worked out 230 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:08,200 later on in a local council in Constantinople where they say that the Son is 231 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,200 also the receiver along the Father and the Spirit. So he does say that, 232 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,200 so on one on one hand, yes, it's it's the it's the 233 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,200 Son in his human nature. So this is this is something that would be 234 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,120 controversial to maybe some people who think that cyri is kind of a like an 235 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:29,279 actual monophysite in some way has a definite idea of the distinction of the two 236 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,559 natures. And so Christ's mediation is really in his human nature right or through 237 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,519 his human nature. So so through his human nature he's offering himself up to 238 00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:41,159 the Father, but as you know, as God himself with the Father, 239 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:45,519 he's also receiving that offering. So he does mention that as well. So 240 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,559 there's this kind of connection there. But but one of the things he's very 241 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:56,519 clear about is that there's no point in which the in which the Father somehow 242 00:16:56,679 --> 00:17:02,360 is disconnected from him in this offering. Yeah, that's important like that that 243 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:08,119 on that because this is something we've seen recently, This idea that when Christ 244 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,960 says, you know, why have you abandoned me? That God did abandon 245 00:17:12,039 --> 00:17:17,400 And this is something that I think Martin Luther ends up saying explicitly that that 246 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,039 that God abandoned Christ in that moment on the cross. But SyRI, Saint 247 00:17:22,039 --> 00:17:26,279 Cyrio, does not go in that direction. No. In fact, we 248 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:30,079 don't have any idea who he's responding to, at least I haven't. I 249 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,000 don't know, and I haven't found any other researchers who have looked at this. 250 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,839 But he's responding to somebody when he says that, you know, there's 251 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:44,319 some there's some who would say that the father looked away from the cross when 252 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,160 the son offered himself. And then he goes at links to say why this 253 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,160 is a ridiculous idea. He said, first of all, you know, 254 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,119 first of all, there's there's two reasons. One is that he is with 255 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,839 one nature, with the Father, and that's that's obviously, you know, 256 00:17:56,839 --> 00:17:59,680 on a theological level. But then he says, just on a very practical 257 00:17:59,759 --> 00:18:03,240 level, said why would the father look away from that which he desired? 258 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,240 You know, this offering was the will of the father. And the Son, 259 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,880 and that which is most honorable. Why would he look away from something 260 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,680 so honorable as the self offering of his son. So there's this idea that, 261 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,079 you know, there's nothing there's nothing tainted in the in the in the 262 00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:22,640 offering of Christ. This is his, this is what was meant to be, 263 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:29,440 And and the Father would never, would never distance himself from that offering. 264 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:30,680 He's a part of it in the fact in two ways, and the 265 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,759 fact that he's at one with the son in nature, and also that and 266 00:18:34,799 --> 00:18:37,279 that he and the Son both desire this, They have a common will, 267 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,000 that they desired this thing to happen. And there's no sense of even in 268 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:44,640 his human nature, because that's the one thing Seria does. Even though he 269 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,880 definitely makes clear that there are these you know, there are two natures, 270 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,480 a human and defined nature, it's always the incarnate Son acting. I think 271 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,880 that's one of the important principles of his theology is this. It's it's the 272 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,920 one incarnate Lord acting, you know. And so therefore you cannot even though 273 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,680 it's through his human nature that he is the high priest did yeah, he's 274 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,680 not yet, you can't divide it anyway. So how does he I mean, 275 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,880 maybe you you don't have an answer to this, But how does he 276 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,319 interpret that phrase, you know, when Christ cries out to his father. 277 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:21,799 So he he has essentially laid out throughout this is more so not so much 278 00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:26,119 in his exegesis, more so in his UH, his theological writings, especially 279 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,240 in response to the story is Uh. He makes clear that all the things 280 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:36,119 that Christ Christ went through h he did it not because he needed for his 281 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,559 own for his own sake, but in order to transform it for our sake. 282 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,920 So, for example, the the Gardner simone is very important for him. 283 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,160 Simi is a point where one of the blameless passions, one of the 284 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:53,000 things that human beings all suffer through, you know, even if they're even 285 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,400 if they were perfected, would be the fear of death. Because it's natural 286 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,559 for us to really die, We want to live, have a sense of 287 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,720 eternity, and the fear of death is real and that humans have to face 288 00:20:04,759 --> 00:20:10,599 this. And so in the Garden Semi, he takes on the human fear 289 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,359 of death in its fullness in order to transform it for us, he says, 290 00:20:12,559 --> 00:20:15,319 and does the same because he accepts finally, that's always what people have 291 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:21,559 to understand is that although he goes through that anguish, then ultimately he accepts, 292 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,200 he says yes to the to to what is going to happen? Right, 293 00:20:25,279 --> 00:20:30,200 Yeah, he always Saint Cyril always emphasizes the idea that's a voluntary offering. 294 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,440 It has to voluntary, it has to be Christ doing this fully taking 295 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,960 it on, active in every single part of it, in order to transform 296 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,680 it for human nature going forward. Yeah. So yeah, there's in the 297 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,000 gardener gets Smene. There's so many mysteries about that because one of the things 298 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,000 that I think is going on in the garden of Getsemene is that we're actually 299 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:52,839 facing we're actually seeing Christ in the garden about to eat the fruit of the 300 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,319 knowledge of good and evil. But he he doesn't want it. But that's 301 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,039 a difference between him and Adam. He actually knows that if you eat of 302 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:03,039 that fruit, you will die. And he says, no, if if 303 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,839 I can be spared the fruit, if I can be spared this cup, 304 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:10,680 then then then then but if that is your will, then I'll do it. 305 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,440 And so it's like God gives him the fruit and now he takes it 306 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:18,880 and dies, but then that is the image of his of his being God 307 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,799 like. It's you could say that it's his deification. He's already God, 308 00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:26,359 but like it's his moment where he does in fact manifest fully that he is 309 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:30,039 like God by eating the fruit. Right, Well, it's it's it's a 310 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,559 it's a it's a you know, the self emptying keeps happening throughout his entire 311 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,400 earthly life. You know, it's not just it's not just that he he 312 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,119 poured himself out in the conception in the Theotolkus's wound. It's not That's not 313 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:47,279 the only moment in which he he becomes humble and enters into the you know, 314 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,440 the status of a slave. There's an ongoing uh, you know, 315 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:55,960 self emptying throughout his life, all the way up to the crosscauseemity's part of 316 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,559 that progress. And then on the cross, when he's saying, you know, 317 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,599 my lord, my lord, why have you forsaken me? He's taking 318 00:22:03,599 --> 00:22:10,240 on the the he's taking on that the human sense of separation, of dejection 319 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,519 of you know, and this is again part of him accepting all the blameless 320 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:17,880 passions and you know, because those are things we don't have control over, 321 00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:21,119 right, just like hunger and thirst and all those other things. He's taken 322 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:25,079 on he has ultimately take on the fear of death, the fear of separation 323 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,039 from God, and then death itself is the final fo he has to take 324 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,960 on, you know, in his uh that he overturns through the resurrection and 325 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,519 you know, I know, I know, Father Stephen the Young Part and 326 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:41,839 others have pointed out that in that moment where he calls out and and ask 327 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,799 God, ask his father why he abandoned him, there's also a prophecy happening 328 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:49,440 while he's saying that, because he's quoting from a psalm in which at the 329 00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:52,920 end of the psalm, God raises up, you know, David out of 330 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,039 the pit. And so it's like he's actually so he's saying, like you 331 00:22:57,079 --> 00:22:59,920 said, he's purifying it. He's like, he's like, I'm going to 332 00:23:00,039 --> 00:23:03,480 I'm going through this truly, but there's a secret prophecy hidden in what he's 333 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,000 doing, which is that God will raise him up in the in the in 334 00:23:07,039 --> 00:23:12,720 the end. It's very powerful and it's always Cyril uses the phrase, you 335 00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:17,839 know, for our sakes all the time, right. So his idea is, 336 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:19,440 I like to think of it, this is as you remember back in 337 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,440 the maybe late eighties and nineties, I don't know if you had this in 338 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,359 Canada, but we had the oxy Clean commercials when they first came out, 339 00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:29,079 and you had the tank of oxy clean, you know, had the white 340 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:32,839 powder thrown in the water and they stir it up and uh. And they 341 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:37,079 have this immensely dirty cloth or something and they dip it into the oxy clean 342 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,519 and they make a point of saying it said, the oxy Clean looking dirty, 343 00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:44,079 the cloth comes out white, you know. And so this is this 344 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,640 is my analogy to try to try to put a put forward exactly what Saint 345 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:52,000 Cruro's explaining. Right. So, so he's like this oxy clean, right, 346 00:23:52,039 --> 00:23:56,960 So Sin and and these things are trying to, you know, to 347 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:03,200 attack him, and in his human nature he instead of him being affected anyway 348 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,160 by the sin, he doesn't. That's why Saint Cyril points out, you 349 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,839 know that Paul says that he's without sin. He's like us in all ways, 350 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:15,559 but he's without sin. Is that when Sin tries to tries to attack 351 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,079 him, or any of the blameless passions tried to affect him, instead of 352 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,559 him being affected, there's an immediate reversal for the sake of human nature at 353 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,400 large. Right, So he reverses it or repels it in a sense, 354 00:24:27,079 --> 00:24:33,599 and because he's of one nature with us according to humanity, we share in 355 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,920 the benefits of that, in the potential right, we potentially share in the 356 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,720 benefits of that. When we by faith are united to Christ, we are 357 00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:42,599 given that power to repel the sin, to not be affected by it. 358 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,279 So it's part of his It's part of his overall idea of how we're saved, 359 00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:49,920 how we're transformed. It's all rooted in how he you know, how 360 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,440 he responds to these things. So it's interesting which kind of comes to mind 361 00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:03,039 in terms of what the that he presents sacrifice is that it seems like if 362 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,480 the sacrifice of Cain and Abel at the outset is natural in the sense that 363 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:11,279 it's something that is in us to want to give up to God, then 364 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,519 it wouldn't. If that's how he sees the origin of sacrifice, then it 365 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,680 makes sense that he would move towards the idea of self sacrifice, right where 366 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:25,240 ultimately you realize that the ultimate sacrifice is the giving of oneself. And so 367 00:25:25,279 --> 00:25:27,559 maybe you can talk a little bit about his ideas on that and how Christ 368 00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:33,519 brings us into that that difference. So the first thing is that is that 369 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:37,000 the law was a way that to channel the innate desire. That's the first 370 00:25:37,039 --> 00:25:41,960 thing, right, So people have this innate desire like Can and Abele and 371 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:47,240 so all of human mind was, you know, in some way making offerings 372 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:52,599 and reaching out to what they understood God to be. But in the revelation 373 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,920 that God gives the beginning with Moses and forward, he's basically channeling that. 374 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:03,319 He's basically or giving order to it, arranging it, but he's doing it. 375 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:04,519 And one of the things that says Cerial is very clear about is that 376 00:26:06,319 --> 00:26:08,559 none of it was necessary. Right, there was no God's God is without 377 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:11,519 necessity. He doesn't need any he doesn't need meat offerings, he doesn't need 378 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:15,359 anything. Right, there's which is said, which is said, like it 379 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,000 says that in scripture, and that's really important to remember that, right exactly. 380 00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:21,920 I mean, so especially in the prophets, you know, it's all 381 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,480 through like Isaiah and Ezekiel and things like that, and he does. One 382 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,960 of the things I focus on in my and my thesis was also on the 383 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,599 the prophets. You know how he sees that in the prophets. So so 384 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,079 none of the said let me just say, want to think of that's really 385 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,000 important because because if we believe that, then we understand that the idea of 386 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:45,200 the trade sacrifice, like of the simple trade of like you know, or 387 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,240 or also the idea that God needs sacrifice in order in order to forgive our 388 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:55,559 sins or some kind of weird idea that this is necessary in from the point 389 00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:57,200 of view of God for this to happen in order, like as if there's 390 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,319 this like weird rule that you know, well, now you've sins, so 391 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,039 now you're impuris so you've got to kill these things so that God will God 392 00:27:04,079 --> 00:27:07,359 will that you can have access to God again. Like that is not nowhere 393 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,400 right, this type of thinking. There's no quid pro quote yeah, in 394 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,000 the offerings, Yeah, the sense that God doesn't need it. And so 395 00:27:17,079 --> 00:27:18,960 he does two things. So, for one thing, he makes it clear 396 00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:27,039 that that he's going to organize and and sort of channel this desire entirely to 397 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:33,880 prepare people for his coming, and the only necessary offering of himself. He's 398 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,440 the necessary offering to accomplish what he desires to do, which is to save 399 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:41,000 humanity, to overcome death forr Us and things like that. So that's that 400 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,160 that is what he would say, would be a necessary offering in the way 401 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,240 that that God wants to to help mankind. So he basically establishes or channels 402 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:56,039 this this Old Testament offering system in order to point everything towards Christ. So 403 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:00,160 everything is pedagogical. He takes up that idea from Saint Paul that the law 404 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,880 as a tutor or a pedagogue, and so it's all pedagogical or symbolic to 405 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,160 point towards the one true offering of Christ. And then he can then he 406 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,440 can go through and apply the spirit of the law, which the spirit of 407 00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:15,880 law is the intent. So what's the true intent? And he goes he 408 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:22,000 presses this really really far, because he essentially says that the Old Testament law 409 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,640 really had At some points he says it wasn't efficacious in any way. Right, 410 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,160 there's nothing he could actually do. There's a couple of points where he 411 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,440 concedes a little bit and says that so long as the as long as the 412 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,759 Israelites were doing it with the right intention, their faith had some efficacy. 413 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,000 Right, there was something they were gaining from being faithful and obedient to God, 414 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:47,960 but that it couldn't actually do anything because it wasn't just like a mechanical 415 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,920 system like obviously that that's ridiculous to think that that anyways, right, well, 416 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,319 that's why that's why it gets condemned by the prophets. The prophets say, 417 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:00,000 look, you think it's an automatic thing. It's all about your intent, 418 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,960 about your acting and faith. You're doing this in obedience and faith and 419 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,519 love towards God. When you do it in the right way, then God 420 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,400 is somehow blessing you. That's what Saint Cyril's basically saying, God is, 421 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,039 God will bless you in response because you're doing it out of faith, So 422 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:15,440 he's channeling this desire for sacrifice. If they do it the right way, 423 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,400 with the right intent, like like able, with the right with the right 424 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,920 heart, then God will respond back with blessings for them. Okay, yeah, 425 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,079 and let me just say I just want to say to the people for 426 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:32,799 the people watching and to understand how this is organically true in anything that has 427 00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:37,079 to do with any type of relationship that you engage with others, whether it's 428 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,799 hierarchical or whether it's it's it's across levels. Is that you know, if 429 00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:45,880 you it's not just like okay, so shake the person's hand, you know, 430 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:48,960 do this and that, and if you do all these things, then 431 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,799 you'll be in a right relationship with others. Like we all know that's nonsense, 432 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:55,920 Like, that's not true. Of course, we have to shake the 433 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,359 other person's hands. Of course we have to we have to be polite, 434 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,799 we have to do all these things that are kind of like rules. But 435 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:07,119 if they're not done with the right intention of entering into communion with the person, 436 00:30:07,519 --> 00:30:11,440 then we know that we could do all the right things and and then 437 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,079 we would find ourselves in disharmony with others. And so it's it's as true 438 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:18,119 for a family meal, for how you relate to your children, to your 439 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,359 parents, to your to your spouse, as it is for how we also 440 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,160 relate to God. So it doesn't mean that we completely remove the rituals. 441 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,279 The rituals are there to embody the intention, But without the intention, then 442 00:30:30,319 --> 00:30:34,359 the rituals ultimately can become can become pernicious even you know, it's like if 443 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,240 you shake someone's hand and you, you know, give them that look like 444 00:30:37,359 --> 00:30:41,920 you know, it's like I actually hate you, then the handshake is nulled. 445 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,599 You know. Yeah, yeah, simple plus intention. I think that's 446 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,480 that's a good way to say that what Saint Cyril, how he defines it. 447 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:49,720 You know, you have to have the meaning is there, but the 448 00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:55,000 meaning has to be backed up by the right disposition. And I think, 449 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:57,119 what's but But here's what he says, though, this is so, it's 450 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:06,799 this idea that that the anti type Christ is the only one who ah imbues 451 00:31:07,039 --> 00:31:12,319 meaning to anything that happening. Of the types, the type only only exists 452 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,240 for the sake of the anti type. And so uh So, for example, 453 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,799 he says, uh he says, though the law of old was not 454 00:31:21,839 --> 00:31:26,079 sufficient to help those in olden times, the mystery mystery of Christ was outlined 455 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,240 in it. But with the coming of Christ's purification by a type, then 456 00:31:30,279 --> 00:31:33,440 of necessity fell in abeyance since the reality was now present. And then he 457 00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:38,240 goes on to say that you know that the real reason that there was any 458 00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:47,000 kind of you know, efficacy in the Old Testament sacrificial system was because already 459 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,440 Christ was there in it. And now the CHRISTI has come, it falls 460 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,039 away. And it sounds like some of the wording he uses. I don't 461 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:57,759 know if you have you ever read uh uh letos artists lidos artist is uh 462 00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:01,000 this is a great if if you have time to get it sometime. I 463 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:07,200 know it's in the same last popular Patristic series. It's on Pasco. It's 464 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,880 the sermon that Saint Melido's Sardis gave in the second century were probably like on 465 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:15,079 the eve of Pasco. It's like a poetic sermon that he gave, and 466 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:20,839 there's sections of it that are quoted later on in our possible hymnography. So 467 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,200 I actually got picked up in the church, and it's many scholars think that 468 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,599 he was a Jew who converted to Christianity and became the bishop of Sardis, 469 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,839 and so Saint Melido. I'll read this little section of Saint Melido. It's 470 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,480 very similar to what Saint Cyril's writing a couple of centuries later. He says, 471 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,559 it's about the Passover and the blood of Christ. He says, tell 472 00:32:38,559 --> 00:32:42,400 me, o, angels, the Angel of Death, at what were you 473 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,359 turned away at the sacrifice of the sheep or the life of the Lord, 474 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:50,039 at the death of the sheep, or the type of the Lord, at 475 00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:52,599 the blood of the sheep, or of the spirit of the Lord. Clearly 476 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,559 you were turned away because you saw the mystery of the Lord taking place in 477 00:32:55,599 --> 00:33:00,319 the sheep, the life of the Lord and the sacrifice of the sheep type 478 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:01,839 of the Lord and the death of the sheep. For this reason, you 479 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,960 did not strike Israel. But it was Egypt alone that you made childless. 480 00:33:06,759 --> 00:33:09,079 So it's like the Angel of Death comes and he already sees the mystery of 481 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,839 the Lamb of God who comes to take away the sins of the world, 482 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:16,160 and he's turned away by that, very similar to what in fact, I'd 483 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,920 like to write an article at one point seeing if there's any connection of Saint 484 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:23,440 Cyril had any access to Saint Melido, because there's this sense in Saint Cyrio 485 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:29,440 that you know that that everything, any any kind of response, positive response 486 00:33:29,559 --> 00:33:34,720 God had to Israel in the mosaic system was because he saw that they were 487 00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:38,119 fulfilling what would ultimately point to Christ. Right, Christ's the one giving it 488 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:44,920 power in some way, he says, Otherwise it would become ineffectual if they 489 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,759 did not, if it was not connected directly to Christ. And so then 490 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:53,039 how does Saint Cyril or does he connect this ultimately with the Christian life, 491 00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:57,799 that is to to show that our life is a living sacrifice. Right, 492 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,920 there's these phrases that we say in our in our liturgical practice, that or 493 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,880 that we see that we are meant to give ourselves ultimately, that that is 494 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,960 what all of this is leading to in terms of our own practice. Yeah, 495 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,840 that's actually that's I would say, that's probably what everything is about for 496 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,599 him, because he says, you know, and so the sacrificial system points 497 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:21,679 to Christ, and then Christ accomplishes what he needs to accomplish. And so 498 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,199 what is the spirit of the law now. The spirit of the law now 499 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:29,480 is to see how we become Christ in our self offering. So so basically 500 00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:31,679 he sets up this idea that we have to voluntarily die, and then he 501 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:36,559 connects that to this idea of picking up our cross each day and following after 502 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,840 Christ every day is like a like a spiritual death or our own self emptying 503 00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:47,039 for the sake of God. And this kind of sets up an entire way 504 00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:50,960 of looking at the world. You know, this this idea that the Christian 505 00:34:51,519 --> 00:34:57,960 is the one who's constantly sacrificing himself. Yeah, it's interesting. I tried 506 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,960 to, you know, when I was when I was completing the dissertation, 507 00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:06,000 I spent a couple of years just reading all the literature and sacrifice. I 508 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,800 could possibly find, and so I had to read. I had to read, 509 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,519 like you know, you name it, Gustaf Island, all these different 510 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:15,840 ones. I read everyone who talked about different aspects of sacrifice, and some 511 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,079 of them Christians, some non Christian anthroological studies. And I came to Rene 512 00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:25,760 Gerrard, and I was trying to see in what ways like his scapegoat, 513 00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:31,440 you know idea, you know, And there's a sense that I saw that 514 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:37,199 there's some some parallels between his idea of the scapegoat and how he says that 515 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,519 Christ ultimately fulfills that he becomes one who takes on everything, you know. 516 00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:44,559 But it was a little still, it's a little bit too protestanty for me, 517 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,039 you know. Well, it's not just that, it's that it's that 518 00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:52,960 Gerard misses another aspect of sacrifice. And so if you take the onmkeyper sacrifice, 519 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,519 for example, it's like there are two sacrifices, my friend. There's 520 00:35:54,599 --> 00:35:59,559 one that is out to the wilderness, and there's one that it's offered up. 521 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:02,639 And the sacrifice that's offered up is not the same. Is not that 522 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,840 Christ brings them together and in a very very mind shattering way, but they're 523 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,159 not the same. And so you know, it's like, for example, 524 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,559 like the pouring out of libations and all of these types of behaviors that the 525 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:21,119 ancients cannot be reduced to scapegoat sacrifice. And so Girardi says, if Gerardi 526 00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:23,559 gets half of the story right, but he's missing an entire half of the 527 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:28,440 story, which makes his theory, in my opinion, insufficient and means that 528 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,280 it's difficult for him to reach this conclusion. So his tendency will be to 529 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,119 say that Christ has abolished sacrifice, and now there's no more sacrifice right now, 530 00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:42,760 there's no more sacred, there's actually no more sacred anymore, whereas the 531 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,599 Christian, the true Christian position is to say Christ has shown how all of 532 00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:52,000 this has to become internalized, and that we can be take the sins of 533 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,159 others to some extent, even that we can sacrifice ourselves, that we can 534 00:36:55,199 --> 00:37:00,639 become the scapegoats in many ways. That is a healing and and that internalized 535 00:37:00,679 --> 00:37:05,440 process now is the way that we live, and it's actually the way that 536 00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:09,000 it's actually our morality is based on that implicitly or explicitly is based on that 537 00:37:09,039 --> 00:37:15,920 image of what of what sacrifice is I think, well, in the twentieth 538 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:21,400 century and Saint Silivon the Athonite, he has this idea that you know, 539 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,760 the ultimate goal is for us to all become adam in a sense and take 540 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,719 on the sins of the world in a sense. Right to be like Christ 541 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,440 is to be able to become escape with ourselves, to become you know, 542 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:37,599 the passover offering ourselves to the entire all the symbolism of the Old Testament sacrificial 543 00:37:37,599 --> 00:37:40,599 system capitulated in Christ. We have to imitate that. We had to take 544 00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:45,199 that on in some way and live the life of self offering, of constant 545 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:51,400 sacrifice. And it's unbearable, Like it's I hate every moment of what you 546 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:52,719 just said, Like I just hate that. I don't want to do that. 547 00:37:53,119 --> 00:37:55,880 But I can see in the stories, like if you look at some 548 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,519 of the stories of the saints, you have very powerful images, especially in 549 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:05,079 the monastics, stories of monks who do exactly that, who actually take on 550 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,280 blame of things they did not do towards the salvation of others. And in 551 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,960 the in the when people see the monk taking the blame for their sins onto 552 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,199 themselves, you know, they're transformed in ways that reproach, or that just 553 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,880 scolding or whatever punishment would never be able to accomplish. Some of these stories 554 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,800 are pretty amazing. But if I could branch off into just something else for 555 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,159 one second, it ties in with So I've been My kind of whole project 556 00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:37,440 over the last twenty years has been looking at, you know, soulcreology, 557 00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:43,599 how salvation works through the Father's interpretation of the Bible. And before I started 558 00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:47,199 working on sacrifice and next Creation, I looked at justification and so I have 559 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:52,440 a little I'd put out a little book back in twenty ten based on my 560 00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:57,800 research on that, and it was focusing on the Desert Fathers, and so 561 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,920 the Desert Fathers were picking up on the Gospel of Luke where in the Gospel 562 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,639 of Luke and the the parable of the of the public and the Pharisee, 563 00:39:06,199 --> 00:39:15,920 the the publican basically by by accepting all blame, he descends down and the 564 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:22,119 u and he's the one who's vindicated or justified by God because he descends down 565 00:39:22,159 --> 00:39:24,719 by taking on all blame, and God's the one who vindicates and lifts him 566 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,000 right. He exalts him, and then the Pharisee he exalts himself and God 567 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:35,599 lowers him, right, he brings him down uh and and condemns him. 568 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,280 And of course the words the word in Greek for to justify or vindicate the 569 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:45,760 kio, its opposite is which means to condemn. Those two words are used 570 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,360 in the parable, so it's the opposite of to vindicate. Right, he 571 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,079 gets condemned down and and that gets picked up in Orthodoxy in the the hymn 572 00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:55,159 for one of the one of the Troparia for that Sunday of the Publican and 573 00:39:55,199 --> 00:39:59,039 the Pharisee during Lent, it says, for the you know, for the 574 00:39:59,079 --> 00:40:04,239 Publican exalted himself or lowered himself, based himself, and he was exalted up. 575 00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:07,119 And the Pharisee exalts himself, and he was he was a base, 576 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,920 you know, he was brought down low. So he had this idea that 577 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,360 that when we take on the blame, when we take on and become that 578 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,519 offering, we allow God as judge, Christ as judge, to be the 579 00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:21,199 one to lift us up and exalt us. He's the one who takes us 580 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,559 up to the to the heights rather than ourselves, you know. So it's 581 00:40:24,599 --> 00:40:28,239 kind of linked to this. That's why he sees this, this sort of 582 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,719 language throughout, especially like the aesthetical writings and Eptic fathers, the desert Fathers. 583 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:37,119 Yeah, and it made the understanding that way makes so much sense of 584 00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:39,320 so many Bible stories, you know, even from the beginning from Genesis, 585 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:45,320 you know, and so you know, that's how you can understand that what 586 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,639 God is asking of Adam, you know, to not raise himself up, 587 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,079 you know, to not himself take the fruit, to not to not pull 588 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:59,079 himself up, that what God wanted for him was too for that God doesn't 589 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:01,079 like that God was going to raise Adam up. And you see that in 590 00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:06,559 the in the scripture. And sometimes it's tricky for people because it's people might 591 00:41:06,599 --> 00:41:08,760 find it hard to see that in the text because it's like, well, 592 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,440 you know, it's it's a bit tricky of sand Ephraim to say that God 593 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,199 wanted to give him the fruit. Doesn't say that in the text, you 594 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,239 know. But if you take the entire scope of if you take the entire 595 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,519 scope of scripture and you kind of see it together, you realize that it's 596 00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:29,239 there all through, Like even the story of Solomon, when it's like God 597 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,079 asks Solomon what he wants, It's like, I will give you, and 598 00:41:32,119 --> 00:41:35,880 then he says, I want the knowledge of good and evil, and God 599 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,800 is like good. That's yes, that's exactly what you should ask for, 600 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,880 and I'm going to give it to you. But he doesn't, he's not 601 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,320 trying to take it for himself. So this weird moment from Solomon shows us 602 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,760 already that this was there and the whole narrative scripture, this idea that what 603 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,360 was received from above is different from than what is taken for ourselves. It's 604 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,360 the opposite in some ways, and we're lifted up when we when we abase 605 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,960 ourselves. It's it seems contradictory, but once you kind of see the logical, 606 00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:02,440 well, actually know that's really how reality works. Yeah, yeah, 607 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:07,960 it's it's so it's so prevalent throughout all of the at least in that I'm 608 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:13,119 not as familiar with the Western liturgical tradition, but in the Eastern liturgical tradition. 609 00:42:13,559 --> 00:42:17,079 I mean, this idea of humbling yourself is just ubiquitous. It's everywhere. 610 00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:21,239 I mean, it's just i mean, all all of Lent focuses on 611 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,679 that, right, all the hymns and the various themes of the services. 612 00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:28,480 It's almost always about how do we humble ourselves before God. Repentance is of 613 00:42:28,519 --> 00:42:32,199 course part of humbling, which is so important during the fasting seasons, because 614 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:37,719 repentance is about admitting, you know, that that we are against God and 615 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,679 turning back towards Him and re establishing relationship. Because we're in the wrong, 616 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,000 we take on the blame. And the more we take on the blame, 617 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,280 you know, we allow God to be God. Because when Christ says that, 618 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,519 you know that he says judge, not unless you be judged. He's 619 00:42:57,519 --> 00:43:00,679 not talking about a lack of discernment, because the same word guiteau is the 620 00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:04,440 same word to judge or to discern it. They're not two different words. 621 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,760 We sometimes translate them differently, but they're the same word used in different parts 622 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,360 positively and negatively. In the New Testament, what he's saying is is, 623 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,599 don't usurp my position. I am the Lord, I sit on the throne 624 00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:19,079 of judgment. I hold the keys you know, to life and death. 625 00:43:19,599 --> 00:43:23,280 Don't usurp my position. Uh, it's not your place to determine, you 626 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:28,840 know, the the outcome of you know, human affairs or individual humans. 627 00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:35,840 You have to humble yourself and see yourself only in comparison to me, he 628 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,840 says, right. And so again in the Desert Fathers, there's this idea 629 00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:44,239 of you know, when when it's when it says, you know who is 630 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:45,920 man that you know he's made a little lower than the angels, and they 631 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,920 take that and they say, you know, God placed us down here, 632 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,519 you know, in this in this reality, and you know this idea of 633 00:43:54,639 --> 00:43:59,800 up and down right, of above and below, we should only be a 634 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,920 little looking up. We should only be we should we're down here only looking 635 00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:07,280 up at the Lord and comparing ourselves only to him, and we compare ourselves 636 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,039 only to Christ. We can't really exalt ourselves in any way. You know. 637 00:44:12,159 --> 00:44:17,679 In fact, this ties into like in Isaiah six when Isaiah, who's 638 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,559 probably the holiest man of his time, right, he's this incredible prophet and 639 00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:24,960 he gets initiated into the throne room of God. He's there in probably what 640 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:30,840 Saint Paul would call the Third Heaven or something like that, and he says, 641 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,440 I am undone, I'm a man of unclean lips. There's this idea 642 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,679 that that the that the Saints have that the more we focus on Christ, 643 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,559 the more we are moving towards Christ, the more we have to humble ourselves, 644 00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:47,000 the more we have to sacrifice ourselves and lower ourselves because we recognize how, 645 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:52,599 you know, how flawed we are, how sinful we are in comparison, 646 00:44:52,679 --> 00:44:55,079 right, that comparison, it's like this weird inversion where we're moving towards 647 00:44:55,159 --> 00:45:00,239 Christ and maybe to an external observer it would seem like we're be coming sanctified 648 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:06,480 our own perception of it, we realize how much further we're getting away from 649 00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:09,840 Him simultaneously, So various saints would say, like at the end of their 650 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,199 life, you know, oh, I haven't even begun to repent, you 651 00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:15,800 know, or you know, or I'm afraid you know, they're glowing with 652 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:20,280 the uncreated light. And then and the people there here talking and say, 653 00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:23,360 you know, he says he's respond to the demons. I don't have any 654 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,079 hope, you know. You know, So these kind of inversions of that, 655 00:45:28,119 --> 00:45:32,000 this like a simultaneous movement toward God and the sense of moving away because 656 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,599 we're just so I hate to say, repugnant, you know, because of 657 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:39,599 our sins. But it's our perception of that, right, It's not saying 658 00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:44,760 anything about God's perception of us. It's only speaking about our perception of our 659 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,760 selves when we start to really know ourselves in relationship to Christ, you know, 660 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,280 and the more we're able to offer ourselves up freely to Christ, the 661 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,559 more we move towards him. But the more we realize how much more work 662 00:45:57,599 --> 00:46:00,880 we have to do in offering ourselves up. Yeah, yeah, and you 663 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,119 can see, like, you know, you can see how this applies either 664 00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:07,880 at lower levels, you know, when you think, you know, when 665 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,039 you think of the problem of the politician, you know the problem of democracy, 666 00:46:12,079 --> 00:46:15,599 for example, which is that you end up with like narcissists, you 667 00:46:15,639 --> 00:46:19,559 know, because you have to you have to fight so much to get it, 668 00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:22,840 like you have to do everything, you know, it's and basically to 669 00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,159 get that position of power, you have to be willing to do anything, 670 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,880 lie, do whatever it takes just to get there. Whereas what we really 671 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,760 want is something like a reluctant king, Like that's what we would really want, 672 00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:37,679 someone who we know is the best to be the king, but really 673 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,639 he doesn't want to be the king, and we almost have to force like 674 00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:42,599 to say, no, you're the king, you know. Like all these 675 00:46:42,639 --> 00:46:45,760 stories of the ancient bishops, you know, they go get the monk and 676 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,920 the cave and see say, okay, you're the bishop and you would just 677 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,440 run away and bring it back. No, no, we know that you're 678 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,679 the bishop, so that's what we would want. But it's a it's yeah, 679 00:46:53,679 --> 00:47:00,840 it's difficult to Yeah, it's it's at the one hand possible. You 680 00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:02,559 know, it just feels impossible. But on the other hand, you know 681 00:47:02,639 --> 00:47:07,039 that it has to be that way, and that's the that's actually the best 682 00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:10,639 image of reality, right Father jose this was amazing, Like, thank you 683 00:47:10,679 --> 00:47:15,719 so much for for for this conversation and uh and uh and uh and yeah, 684 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,280 and I hope I will see you. I think you said you're going 685 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,199 to come to the Sabolic World Summit and so people can go to meet you 686 00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:23,639 there. That's my plan. I hopefully get up there. I mean it's 687 00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:27,880 not that far. I mean tarp and Springs. We call it a talk 688 00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,519 pony Pe. That's that's a Greek because it's it's entirely greekably exactly. It's 689 00:47:31,519 --> 00:47:35,559 like the Greek capital of America. I try to get up there once every 690 00:47:35,599 --> 00:47:38,239 year or so and uh my family and walk around the sponge docks and buy 691 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:43,159 some Greek stuff and bring it back to Miami. So so definitely looking forward 692 00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:45,280 to to to seeing you again. And uh, thanks for your insight and 693 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,960 thank you for your time. Father. Yeah. If you enjoyed these videos 694 00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,280 and podcasts, please go to the Symbolic World dot com website and see how 695 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,119 you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks, 696 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,199 are apparel and books to purchase, So go to this symbolical dot com and 697 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:02,760 thank you for your support