1 00:00:04,919 --> 00:00:09,640 Okay, Hey, what's going on? Everybody got another episode of Adventures in 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,800 DevOps. I'm back this week. Hey, Warren, how's it going. 3 00:00:14,199 --> 00:00:16,600 It's great. You know, I didn't know if you were going to show 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,879 up, so I was thinking about we'd be having to do a second episode 5 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:24,199 just by myself. I mean, I think last week went right. You 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,120 know, I was on an island in the South Pacific, so it went 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:32,759 great for me as well. I have zero complaints. I'm jealous. I'm 8 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:37,719 gonna have to head over there myself, so I've got my Factor of the 9 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:44,520 week. I was over in Warsaw doing a cybersecurity short conference meetup, and 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:50,679 I got questions whether or not using SaaS is secure. And I feel like 11 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:55,600 it's an interesting proposition people bring up as a challenge whether or not what you're 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,280 building internally versus externally is more or less secure than that. And I find 13 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,760 it really interesting that still lots of companies believe that somehow the engineers that you've 14 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:08,239 hired are better than the ones that another company is hired. Now, for 15 00:01:08,239 --> 00:01:11,879 sure, it can be true sometimes, but I still feel like there's an 16 00:01:11,879 --> 00:01:15,200 overwhelming majority that keeps questioning this, which is really a surprise for me. 17 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:25,680 Yeah, So what you're saying there is that people are reinventing the wheel still 18 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,280 because they don't trust sas. Is that the Yeah, for sure. I 19 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,319 mean it's a whole nother level on top of not invented here, right, 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,319 it's a oh yeah, that's not secure. And I feel like it's just 21 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:40,000 this abyss that you can fall into of believing that because we're doing it ourselves, 22 00:01:40,079 --> 00:01:44,000 we're going to somehow do it better, it's going to be more secure 23 00:01:44,159 --> 00:01:47,959 than another solution. I'm just like, you know, show me where your 24 00:01:47,959 --> 00:01:52,480 interview process is that proves that the engineering team is definitely better, because there's 25 00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:57,079 lots of good companies out there that are have great interviewing processes, have great 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,640 cultures that are for sure building secure solutions. Yeah for sure. Yeah, 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:07,400 I'm leveraging that right. Well, may I may I interrupt? May I 28 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:13,400 absolutely an opinion? Yeah, bring it on, go for it. I 29 00:02:13,479 --> 00:02:15,360 think I understand where people might be coming from it. I don't think it's 30 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:20,439 because they think that they're better engineers. I'm sure some of them do, 31 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:34,000 but I think that there's some legitimate engineering consideration around isolation, right, Like 32 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,360 I think like as an engineer, you would say, Okay, well, 33 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:42,240 if it's like inside my ABS account and I control the boundaries of this account, 34 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,680 the VPC, the im rolls as account as an example, is like 35 00:02:46,719 --> 00:02:52,560 an isolation boundary, and I think like there is something to say about going 36 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:58,520 outside of that boundary into another you know, and then into another system. 37 00:02:58,599 --> 00:03:02,400 And so I think that maybe some of that sentiment comes from from that isolation 38 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:07,479 boundary, not necessarily from like I didn't build it, so I don't trust 39 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:14,199 it. I don't know. Yeah, I feel like we should introduce our 40 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:21,599 guest for today, right. That new voice that you just heard is our 41 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:29,360 guest, Eli Ben Israel, former ABS, former Microsoft, the CEO and 42 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:34,680 co founder of Wing. And this is a cool fact you created the AWS 43 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:39,080 CDK, Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, you just hold that. 44 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:45,759 Yeah, Yeah, of course I did. Mean and an amazing team that 45 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:53,039 Amazon and WUS and but yeah, it's it's really really really proud of this 46 00:03:53,120 --> 00:04:01,159 project. That definitely been really sure the journey. Yeah, just looking at 47 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:05,080 your background here, it seems like it's been a fun journey, which I've 48 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,479 always you know, I feel the same about my career, and I just 49 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:14,560 think how amazing that is that I could spend three decades doing something and go 50 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,720 that was pretty cool, man, and continuing to be passionate about it and 51 00:04:18,759 --> 00:04:24,560 like excited about it. I feel like, actually, I think Microsoft was 52 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:32,399 the first time in my career where I stumbled into old geezers who are still 53 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:38,879 doing software for a living and still writing code and still have this like childish 54 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:46,720 enthusiasm after you know, forty years of programming and got really inspired by that. 55 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,240 I feel like that was like, as a young engineer, it was 56 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:55,680 like, yeah, I can I can see myself doing this for a few 57 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,439 more decades. Oh for sure, I agree, And I think that's super 58 00:05:00,439 --> 00:05:04,279 cool because a lot of people can't say that, And I know for sure 59 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:09,879 if I were in a different career, I may not be as excited about 60 00:05:09,879 --> 00:05:12,480 it. So I think it's really really cool that we can do that. 61 00:05:13,199 --> 00:05:15,439 Well, now, I'm worried that the first job you get out of university 62 00:05:15,519 --> 00:05:19,079 or you know, get into the professional environment, whoever is around you is 63 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:24,480 going to dictate how were you inspiration and how you think about work goes on 64 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,079 for the rest of your professional life, and that that scares me a bit 65 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,959 because I feel like there were way too many jaded engineers at the early on 66 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,439 places where I worked. I don't think it would it would dictate it. 67 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:42,959 I think, like like anything in life, you you find your role models 68 00:05:44,399 --> 00:05:48,600 during your journey, and you identify them when they they're the right road models, 69 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,720 right like, not necessarily with the first one, the first ones that 70 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:58,240 you encounter. Yeah. I can say from my perspective that a lot of 71 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,959 the the mentors in role models that I had over my career, it wasn't 72 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:08,279 until years and sometime decades later that I realized that they were mentors and role 73 00:06:08,319 --> 00:06:11,879 models. Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's well defined, and 74 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,360 I also think that there the corollary problem here is you're not really talked to 75 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,920 or taught about how to find a role model or why you might want to 76 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:21,279 find one, or what that even looks like and how it can help you. 77 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,720 I feel like at one point in your career people start popping on and 78 00:06:25,759 --> 00:06:28,360 be like, oh, I it would probably be good if I had one 79 00:06:28,399 --> 00:06:32,519 of these. Maybe how do I get one? Where's the app? Where's 80 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:38,480 the app? Right? You joke? But I'm sure there was one out 81 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,199 there now, like find your tech mentor, right and go on there? 82 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,680 Actually both I think both Microsoft and Amazon has like had like internal systems for 83 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:53,800 matching you with the mentor. So it's not so makes sense right, the 84 00:06:53,800 --> 00:07:00,839 AI has automatically selected your mentor. Please click continue Why it has Scarlette Johansson's 85 00:07:01,319 --> 00:07:14,920 It has Scarlett Johanson's voice. Cool. So aside from mentoring and sas and 86 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,600 careers, what is wing? I'm curious about that because I kind of have 87 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,399 a little bit of an idea, but I want to hear it straight out 88 00:07:21,439 --> 00:07:26,839 of your mouth. Tell us what wing is. Yeah, we're also like 89 00:07:27,279 --> 00:07:30,959 learning how to talk about it, like as the project evolved, so it's 90 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,600 probably you probably have a different It would be interesting to hear what you you 91 00:07:35,639 --> 00:07:43,800 know, I think that the way the way I'm thinking about it is so 92 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,720 Yeah, spend some time at AWS, built the CDK, built some internal 93 00:07:47,759 --> 00:07:59,560 distributed systems at Amazon, and been constantly obsessed about developer experience and developer productivity 94 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,839 and iteration speed because to me as a developer, that's like the most most 95 00:08:03,839 --> 00:08:11,959 important piece of like my my experience is my ability to iterate. And after 96 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,959 leaving Amazon, I was like, okay, so it still feels crappy to 97 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:18,879 build stuff on the cloud. For some reason, I mean, I love 98 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,920 the CDK and I think like it's it took us many steps forward, but 99 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,199 something didn't feel like we've really solved the problem. It's kind of I was 100 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,959 thinking, well, the cloud is going to be here for fore you know, 101 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,639 for the foreseeable future. We're going to continue to build stuff on this 102 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:39,960 new kind of platform. But something is still a bit broken, and it 103 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:46,200 took me some time to untangle, like what are the what are the big 104 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:52,159 pains or where the kind of the root causes of the of those of those 105 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,919 of this friction that we feel. I think like everybody I talked to kind 106 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:01,639 of resonates with that friction. But no, I think like people perceive that 107 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:07,320 it's coming from different uh, you know, from different reasons and and the 108 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,600 way I am thinking about it, my perception of this is that there are 109 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:18,679 two main problems. One is the fact that the developers, you know, 110 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:24,799 when you're when you're looking at a system like the cloud, there are two 111 00:09:24,399 --> 00:09:30,399 engineering disciplines that are required in order to deliver something to the cloud. One 112 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:35,120 is the infrastructure discipline or the DevOps discipline or the it ops or the system 113 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:41,200 administration, and the other is the application developers. And as much as we 114 00:09:41,279 --> 00:09:46,639 would love a world where all applications developers would also be passionate about I P 115 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,480 routing tables. And I think some of us are. I think some of 116 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,519 us are, which is tantalizing somethings, because you know, I'm I'm one 117 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,519 of those. And so for me, like having like a full understand of 118 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,960 the stack is it's fun and I enjoy it. And I learned enjoyed learning 119 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:11,639 how to configure vpcs and how to set up EC two instances. And but 120 00:10:11,919 --> 00:10:16,519 most application developers are focused and passionate about the problem domain that they're you know, 121 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:22,080 solving for, which is usually the business problem domain or the customers of 122 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:28,360 their business. And these are two different engineering domains in terms of like the 123 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,639 problem space. And I think what I've seen with the CDK, and I 124 00:10:33,639 --> 00:10:37,759 think a little bit of the blind spot we had with the CDK, especially 125 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:45,039 given Amazon's and Aws's engineering culture, which is very much on the kind of 126 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:52,159 like full stack devop see you know, everybody, the side of the spectrum 127 00:10:52,639 --> 00:11:00,399 is that developers don't really want and are really struggling to understand all the mechanics 128 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:05,720 of the of the cloud and and in reality, when you look at organizations 129 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,399 they don't really want their developers to fully understand all the mechanics and the cloud. 130 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,159 And so one of the problems that I've seen is that developers are not 131 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:20,919 they don't have access to this new type of computer they they access in terms 132 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:28,000 of like cognitive you know, cognitive barrier, learning barrier, and in some 133 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,840 cases also like they're not allowed to touch the cloud, right, Like it's 134 00:11:31,879 --> 00:11:35,639 like, this is the develop scene, this is the platform stuff. You 135 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:39,200 just do your container you know. I kind of I kind of sometimes think 136 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:45,279 about it, like we've containerized the developers just put them in side, and 137 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,799 this is the cloud. You don't worry about it. Just just write your 138 00:11:48,799 --> 00:11:52,639 code and the cloud is you don't have to care about it. And I 139 00:11:52,639 --> 00:12:00,320 think it's a shame because you know, the beauty of the cloud is infrastructure 140 00:12:00,519 --> 00:12:05,039 is the ability to leverage managed services to achieve your goals. And the more 141 00:12:05,799 --> 00:12:09,120 but the more you're leaning on that, on that, on that system, 142 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:15,200 the more you're leaning on these services, uh, the less you give developers 143 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,799 independence, and the less you give developers the ability to actually like iterate quickly 144 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,240 and choose the right tools and understand how they're you know, leveraging this new 145 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:31,120 type of technology. And so to me that was like the fundamental realization is 146 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:37,320 that the gout that the cloud is not is not ready for developers in a 147 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:41,639 sense. And and I think what we've seen is that, or what we're 148 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:48,080 seeing is that organizations are trying to kind of again they containerize the developers. 149 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:54,279 They create these like big platforms and complex workflows. And you know this HELM 150 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,519 chart, So go and change this one line if you want to add an 151 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:03,759 API endpoint, but you can't really test it because we need to deploy it 152 00:13:03,759 --> 00:13:05,279 on the cluster in order for you to actually see that it's working. But 153 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,320 don't worry, it's going to be fine. And it's not fine sometimes And 154 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:13,240 I think you guys know what I'm about, right, And so basically trying 155 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:16,679 to solve this problem, right, Like it's like, how do we give 156 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:22,759 developers access to this new type of computer? And it's a huge challenge, 157 00:13:22,799 --> 00:13:28,919 I feel, because I think what happened is that the cloud is you know, 158 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,799 we've we've raced to the cloud in a sense and as an industry, 159 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:39,799 and we've basically carried with us a lot of the tools and approaches that worked 160 00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:43,720 for us in the data center and in traditional computing that like the programming languages 161 00:13:43,759 --> 00:13:50,279 and the abstractions and the deployment systems, and and we ended up with like 162 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:56,320 something that's not optimized for this type of platform, and so what have you 163 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,320 know. What we've been doing with WING in the past few years is trying 164 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:07,960 to distill how to how to address this pain uh. And I think like 165 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:13,200 one of the kind of like maybe a bit of a recent coin drops I 166 00:14:13,279 --> 00:14:20,360 had or the recent kind of uh observations I had, was that the thing 167 00:14:20,399 --> 00:14:28,120 that we're missing is is an abstraction layer. Is this decoupling between application and 168 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:35,679 platform that we have in traditional software and we've developed in traditional software, Like 169 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:37,960 I used to write code in the nineties, and we didn't have that decoupling. 170 00:14:39,039 --> 00:14:41,200 I had to you know, I know which file system I'm using in 171 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:45,840 order to write files, and I had to know how to you know, 172 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,399 store create like TSR programs in order to do some memory you know background uh, 173 00:14:50,759 --> 00:14:56,519 you know stuff that truns in the background and like do sometime. And 174 00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:00,360 so again this is I loved I love this. I've always been a acted 175 00:15:00,399 --> 00:15:03,360 to this, but now today when you want to do these things, you 176 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:05,879 really don't have to understand how your your platform works, right Like, you 177 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:09,720 really don't have to know which filesystem you're using in most cases, and which 178 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:15,759 even which operating system you're using, right Like, we have established a bunch 179 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:22,679 of layers that allow developers to be effective on this platform called a computer, 180 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:28,799 right computer that runs inside a machine. And and and my realization was that 181 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,879 we need this layering for the cloud because without this layering, we keep bumping 182 00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:39,080 into each other, right Like, these disciplines keep keep the friction keeps happening. 183 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:46,279 And what we've been doing with WING is basically we've established this abstract cloud 184 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:52,000 API as a foundation for solving this problem. And I think there's a timing 185 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:56,919 aspect to this, because the cloud as a as a you know, as 186 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:03,120 a as a platform is is maturing over time. And we've and I believe 187 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:10,440 we're at the state where we can identify the primitives and and even identifying them 188 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:12,120 from the bottom. In a sense, it's not necessarily saying, you know, 189 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,120 I'm going to be able to like give you all the primitives you ever 190 00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:21,360 need. It's basically saying, let's give you more primitives. I'll give you. 191 00:16:21,399 --> 00:16:26,000 I'll give you an example, what I mean about this, you know 192 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:30,720 what let me So the basically what I'm trying to say is that it's it's 193 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:34,919 pretty safe. There are some primitives that we know that are very valuable. 194 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:40,240 But for example, a container, right, being able to execute a container, 195 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,399 run a container, you know, in a scalable way. And I 196 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,320 think Kubernetes said basically said, yeah, here's here's your primitive. And it's 197 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,480 been very very successful in exactly that, right, Like it's basically saying, 198 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:56,759 if you need to run containers, Kubernetes gives you exactly this abstraction that you 199 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:03,319 need. And it's because super successful because it was able to identify this one 200 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:11,720 primitive, uh that that can hold an application on the cloud. But in 201 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,920 my mind, it's it's very low level, and it's it still means that 202 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,680 you're not leverage you're not really able to leverage the cloud, right, Like 203 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:25,160 you're leveraging VMS maybe, right, which is super powerful, super valuable. 204 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,880 But again, if you need if you need storage, for example, then 205 00:17:30,039 --> 00:17:34,000 okay, go manage hard drives and memory manage and and you know, scale 206 00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:40,839 your volumes and back up and replication and like, but hey, guys, 207 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,960 there's like a thousand people team at Amazon that's managing object storage and S three, 208 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:48,519 maybe we can use this service and then instead of doing this ourselves, 209 00:17:48,599 --> 00:17:53,960 right, And so even just saying let's take object storage as another primitive, 210 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,319 it's pretty ubiquitous. It exists in every cloud, every cloud provider. It 211 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,359 even as a self hosted Kubernetes you know, solution if you need it. 212 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,920 And let's define the abstraction layer of this, of this idea called a bucket 213 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,279 or object store. And I think we know how to do this. I 214 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:17,079 think, like you know, anybody can pretty much define, Okay, we 215 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,160 need to be able to put files and get files and download and download multi 216 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,880 part downloads and uploads and mind types and this there's a surface area that's pretty 217 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:33,039 easy to identify and say, even just adding this one primitive to your toolbox 218 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:40,960 of abstract cloud primitives can really help. Right. I've talked to many people 219 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,400 and because that especially people who use Kubernetes that are kind of like, we're 220 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,119 worried about taking too much dependency on their cloud provider, but they still have 221 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:56,240 a bucket, right, Like they still need a bucket, which is anecdotally 222 00:18:56,279 --> 00:19:00,279 it's actually as is first service, right like atabus is first service. That's 223 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:04,440 three. So taking step by step basically saying, okay, let's let's talk 224 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,720 about object store and define this abstract API and start building our applications on top 225 00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:15,279 of this abstract API, which is decoupled from the you know, concrete implementation. 226 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:22,480 Again, super simple exercise, not super hard to do. And the 227 00:19:22,519 --> 00:19:26,279 other thing that we're doing with Wing is we're actually doing we're actually audi also 228 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,279 providing a simulator implementation for those for those resources, because again, if I 229 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,160 define the contract for a bucket, pull, get lists, whatever, it's 230 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,000 pretty easy to implement it locally. It's obviously not highly available and replicate it 231 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:45,799 and all that stuff, but like from a functional perspective, I can actually 232 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:49,559 test my application now and I can iterate. And so this is basically the 233 00:19:49,599 --> 00:19:53,559 exercise that we've started doing. It's like, okay, let's take buckets and 234 00:19:53,640 --> 00:20:04,200 queues and topics and static websites and and secrets and basically slowly kind of like 235 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:10,440 adding more tools to the arsenal of tools that you that are the foundation. 236 00:20:10,599 --> 00:20:17,240 They are the standard library in a sense of the cloud. And let me 237 00:20:17,319 --> 00:20:22,559 let me pause you right there. So so if I'm following you correctly, 238 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:30,559 you're thinking about application development in terms of just the primitives as far as like 239 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,240 Okay, I need compute, I need file storage, I need database, 240 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:41,079 and so instead of forcing the application developers to think about the individual characteristics of 241 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:48,319 those because of the chosen provider, just abstracting that away to say, look, 242 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,640 you need file storage, Okay, here's here's the interface for putting files. 243 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:59,559 Here's the interface for getting files. How that happens because you're using ABS 244 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:06,240 or g CP or NetApp or whatever doesn't matter, right, am I following? 245 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,559 You're right? Yeah, yeah, exactly right. And I think like 246 00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:14,200 the heavy lifting that we're doing on our side is testing, right. It's 247 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,599 basically saying, oh, here's an implantation for a WS, here's an inflation 248 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,279 implantation, or azure, here's an implementation for the simulator. It's heavy lifting 249 00:21:22,319 --> 00:21:27,279 because I can't expect every platform team across the industry to actually do all this 250 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,319 heavy lifting across you know, multiple resources, across all the different types of 251 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:36,359 cloud providers. And obviously we're doing this with the community. It's like an 252 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:41,759 open source project, and so we start to see people fill up, you 253 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:48,039 know, fill up little little boxes in this matrix of compatibility and the thing 254 00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:52,799 that this does in terms of solving the original problem. There are two things. 255 00:21:52,839 --> 00:22:00,920 Basically, one is a higher level API which is in it, which 256 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,119 is based on the mental model of the application and not on the mental model 257 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,839 of the infrastructure. And because when the developer uses a bucket, they they 258 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:17,519 understand the the semantics of this the function, the functional semantics of this of 259 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:21,119 this resource even today right like when they're using S three, they understand, 260 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,759 okay, so I'm putting objects on this service. And there's some constraints related 261 00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,319 to the fact that it's a distributed system. Like all those things are easy 262 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,680 for developers to understand, they're not that that's not the hard part. The 263 00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:40,400 non functional aspects of the of the of the of the bucket. Uh wing 264 00:22:40,519 --> 00:22:45,319 actually has this like pluggable customizable back end model, and so we provide some 265 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:51,799 default implementation, but then platform teams can actually like customize that default implementation and 266 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:56,960 provide their own implementation or you know, a customized implementation of our of our 267 00:22:57,039 --> 00:23:03,079 bucket. And so for example, we have this customer who it's actually a 268 00:23:03,079 --> 00:23:07,839 really cool example, like we have this uh resource called API, which is 269 00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:15,519 sorry, which is basically so we have this resource called API which is basically 270 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:18,400 an API gateway, so you can specify routes and then you can specify the 271 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,920 handlers, you know, how how how the each route, how you respond 272 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,440 to each route. And our default implementation at the time for the time being 273 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:33,480 is using infre w S, is using API gateway and lambda functions because it's 274 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:37,960 the it's the simplest implementation to get started with. And we have a customer 275 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,640 who basically said, well, we were not allowed to use API gateway because 276 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:47,960 you know, some compliance security, you know, some financial institute, and 277 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,480 and they created an implementation of this API resource that uses load balancer and a 278 00:23:53,559 --> 00:24:00,440 monolithic container right behind the scenes, and you didn't have to change to anything 279 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,400 about the programming model. Like from the developers perspective, they just specify the 280 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,839 bunch of routes and a bunch of handlers, and and the way that these 281 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:14,119 guys are going to be deployed in that with this particular cloud environment is using 282 00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:18,279 you know, a load balancer and a long runnings container. Great, and 283 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:22,680 so I think this de coupling offers both the application the developers the ability to 284 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,759 actually understand what they're doing, right, Like it's not just like change this 285 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,599 one line here this terre form and yeah, it's it's HCl, it's this 286 00:24:33,759 --> 00:24:37,880 thing. Don't worry about it, it's it's now. Like talking in their 287 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,319 language also gives the platform teams and develops teams the ability to focus on their 288 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,720 responsibility, because it's not like we're saying there's no need for develops or there's 289 00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:52,160 no need for you know, people who are experts in on the on the 290 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,839 problem domain of the infrastructure and the problem domain of the the of the system. 291 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:03,559 It's always been needed, right for software. So that's why sure. 292 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,480 And then the second side is like the simulation, which I think is really 293 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:12,400 shifting the developer experience to to the left in the sense it's like the cloud 294 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480 is not that you don't need the cloud in the loop when you're iterating, 295 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:21,480 which is and probably don't want it there even if it is in the loop. 296 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:26,079 Yeah, I mean, I think developers are really spoiled and legitimately so 297 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:29,519 right, Like they want to work on their ID, they want their debugger. 298 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,920 This is their you know, this is their craft, right Like their 299 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,599 craft is like to change some code and check that it's working, and change 300 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,920 it again, and check again and change again, and then then write a 301 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,240 little unit test, and like you want to be able to do these iterations 302 00:25:42,279 --> 00:25:45,839 really really quickly, and even if it takes like thirty seconds or a minute, 303 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,720 it's too long, at least in my my standards. You said, 304 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:55,519 you said a bunch of really interesting things there, and I feel like there's 305 00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:59,079 a there's three that really come to mind, and the first one is there's 306 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,920 an aspect of the container world, which I think you know started with Docker 307 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,960 than Kubernetes, that has really failed us. It just the interface that you 308 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,000 have to understand in order to deploy your technology in one of these environments requires 309 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,839 I mean, it's better than it was. It took the interface that we 310 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,920 had, which was the operating system, and sort of adjusted it by like 311 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,160 say, ninety degree angle. It's still the same, it's still the same 312 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,799 thing in a lot of ways, but maybe there is more consistency in what 313 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,839 we're getting. And I feel like that's that's in a way something that we 314 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,079 lost. We had the DevOps movement. Everything's supposed to be under one roof, 315 00:26:32,079 --> 00:26:34,880 everything's supposed to be understood together, and if anything, we didn't achieve 316 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,079 that. We didn't get in that direction with the tools. We just you 317 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:41,119 know said, oh yeah, you know, we have the mindset, and 318 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,079 I feel like this is an opportunity. You start talking about primitives here that 319 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,839 we actually need, and I feel like that's where AWS was really successful compared 320 00:26:47,839 --> 00:26:51,200 to the other cloud providers. You start out with S three. A huge 321 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,880 release was Lambda successfully in an API gateway. I mean, these to me 322 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,319 are the primitives that you're even talking about, and they that's where the success 323 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:00,960 came from. Everything else is like, you know, what is that even? 324 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,240 And if we take it another step further, we can see companies like 325 00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:10,599 render or Netlify versl that are trying to create an abstraction layer on top of 326 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:11,880 the cloud to make it simpler. But I feel like it's you know, 327 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,319 almost what we're saying is it's two opinion based, right. You're losing the 328 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,400 aspect of how to deliver value from the underlying resources that are there, blockstore, 329 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,440 et cetera. By offering a two opinion needed answer, like if you 330 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,680 need to dive down, you can't get that. So both early on we 331 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,200 didn't succeed because we didn't figure out what the primitives were, and we also 332 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,400 have two over opinionated platforms. It'd be great if we could redefine what that 333 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:41,160 real interfaces at the platform level, at the cloud provider level, so that 334 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:44,519 what you need at the application makes sense. I mean, even Lambda, 335 00:27:44,839 --> 00:27:48,480 you have to know that you're using Lambda in aws in order to deploy your 336 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:52,039 software. Right, you can't just be like I don't want to think about 337 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:56,079 this in go to town. Early alternative as containers today. Yeah, absolutely 338 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:02,279 agree. I think I think the vertical the vertical platforms like Heroku, you 339 00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:07,240 know, ver Cell render uh, you know, they're able to create a 340 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,799 really great developer experience by completely narrowing down the surface area and saying, Okay, 341 00:28:11,799 --> 00:28:15,559 we're just going to give you the ability to you know, deploy websites 342 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,839 or to deploy containerized the applications. And in that sense, it's it's great, 343 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,000 it's solving it's solving the problem right in that sense because for those use 344 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:27,400 case you really get an amazing experience. Well, what we're trying to do 345 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,599 with Wing is we're trying to actually create like a general purpose solution, not 346 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:37,279 necessarily a vertically integrated solution, but more of like like any any you know, 347 00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,559 programming environment where you're able to actually pick and choose which tools you want 348 00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:48,160 to use for your solution, and we are actually working on a delivery experience 349 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:55,240 there will be very similar to what Render offers and verseell offers, but works 350 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:59,839 on top of this foundation, so it's not limited to you know, just 351 00:29:00,119 --> 00:29:08,720 delivering websites or containers. It almost makes me think of like an infrastructure approach 352 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,079 implemented with Go interfaces, you know, because if you have a Go interface, 353 00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:21,440 you can swap out anything that matches those same interface, the same interface 354 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,319 specification, so underneath, you know, if you're if you're logging provider matches 355 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:29,440 the interface and you want to swap that out, you can just swap it 356 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,200 and there's no there's no impact that no one knows the difference except for the 357 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:40,839 people who are required to maintain that, and you're it sounds like you're taking 358 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,799 that to an infrastructure approach. You know, if you need a storage bucket, 359 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,440 here's the interface for it, and who the actual provider that is doesn't 360 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,720 matter. You can swap it out daily if that's what makes you happy. 361 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:57,839 As long as it matches the interface, you're good to get the buckets. 362 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,400 You have to also move all the across Oh you're not, You're not going 363 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,000 to handle that part automatic, and that's that's the support teams problem. That 364 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:11,880 line, I think that's a very apt uh, you know, very aware 365 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,839 of the problem. I mean, just for those that haven't used GO versus 366 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,640 other compiled languages, you normally you have to define the inner the interface. 367 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,279 Is that a class implements you know, not just here are the methods, 368 00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:26,880 but explicitly that it implements an interface, and then go. You actually don't 369 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:32,440 have to define the interface in order to pass an object around and injecting as 370 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,920 long as all the properties of that class actually match. So, I mean, 371 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:41,480 I think that's that's spot on realistically here. Yeah, there are many 372 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:48,839 versions of this, I think in software design and dependency injection is like something 373 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:55,599 that exists in almost every programming environment and and and it's at the heart of 374 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,279 what we're doing, right, Like you're able to basically inject the dependency and 375 00:30:59,319 --> 00:31:02,119 say, okay, in the case I want to use, uh, my 376 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,720 bucket instead of of the standard bucket. Yeah, I agree. I think 377 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,920 I think we know how to do this as a as a you know, 378 00:31:11,759 --> 00:31:15,920 you know, as an industry. It's not we're not inventing the wheel in 379 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:22,680 the sense of like new, completely new uh design paradigms. But but I 380 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:30,599 think like there's a I think like I think you know there is you know 381 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:37,519 there is a there's there. They're going and doing it right, like going 382 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:41,000 and going and saying this is the API that we think is the right a 383 00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:47,599 PI. That's a really big challenge because designing good a PI is is is 384 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,319 an art and science problem of thing right, like and and and this is 385 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,319 one of the reasons we're doing this as an open source project because we believe 386 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,200 that this is something that needs to be baked with the community, baked with 387 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,319 use cases, baked with the real world. We don't have the oracle and 388 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,880 knowledge of like exactly how to do this, and so I think like doing 389 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,960 this in the open and collaboratively is the right way to do something like that 390 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:19,720 for sure. And you've been working on us for a couple of years now, 391 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:25,000 is that right? Yeah? Cool? How has how's the community support 392 00:32:25,279 --> 00:32:29,359 been from that? Because like with with open source projects, you know, 393 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:36,000 that's I think that's the challenge is like getting people to make it a two 394 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:40,359 way conversation. How has that experience been for you? It's been amazing, 395 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,079 to be honest, I feel like I feel I learned a lot from my 396 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:51,559 experience, you know, building the CDK and kind of like being not in 397 00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:55,119 a way a bit not very intentional about the community that's built around the CDK, 398 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:01,559 but observing the organic kind of evolution of it, and then coming into 399 00:33:01,799 --> 00:33:07,200 Wing was like, Okay, I kind of know what are the important things 400 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:13,119 about creating a community like that, And we've really made a lot of effort 401 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,079 to kind of put that in place very early in the project, and it 402 00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:21,599 really pays off, right like the fact that I feel like I feel Wing 403 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,759 is a really really great project to contribute to, and I'm not saying that, 404 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,440 I really do think it's just a good experience as a contributor, right, 405 00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:34,559 Like, you have a really good, really reasonable documentation, definitely always 406 00:33:34,559 --> 00:33:39,319 have, always can improve the documentation with reasonable documentation, the build environment and 407 00:33:39,359 --> 00:33:45,559 the development environment is is is pretty easy to use, and it's a pretty 408 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:49,839 complex project. So you know, being able to actually like get that right 409 00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:54,759 as took us quite a lot of iterations. We're trying to be very responsive. 410 00:33:54,839 --> 00:34:00,000 The community is very welcoming and very helpful, and we public goods first 411 00:34:00,039 --> 00:34:05,359 issues and there's a bunch of things that you can do that even things like 412 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:13,480 I'll just give you an acdotal example. Uh, there's this to two really 413 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:17,000 simple things that that you can do to really improve the experience of contributors. 414 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:22,199 One is, whenever someone submits a pull request, send them a note, 415 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:27,840 you know, send them a comment, acknowledge that there's someone on the other 416 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,760 side. That's like it's a it's a dopamine rush, right, Like it's 417 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,599 like, oh, sure, someone that saw me right, saw that I'm 418 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,199 that I'm here. And then the other one is that once the feature that 419 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:45,360 they or the fix that they contributed was released, add a comment to the 420 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,519 pool request that says this was released in the version of V and and just 421 00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:58,119 getting that like closing the cycle and giving people the acknowledgment that what they've contributed 422 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:05,280 is now a public release and everybody can use it is really gratifying for contributors. 423 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,519 I can say that as you know, from from firsthand experience, right 424 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:12,679 like for me when I'm contributing. And so these two things can be pretty 425 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,519 much automated, right Like you really don't have to be super It doesn't require 426 00:35:16,519 --> 00:35:20,960 a lot of efforts, but it does require intention to to put them in 427 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,840 place. And once you put them in place like even for me when I'm 428 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:28,159 I'm submitting pr to our repo and I get this little note that says it 429 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,599 was released and version of x y Z, it just feels good for sure. 430 00:35:32,639 --> 00:35:39,480 That's that's something that I think is worth acknowledging and mentioning, you know, 431 00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:46,000 because that's the people side of writing goods software and it's something that we 432 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:52,719 we can easily get defocused from. You know that there are people at the 433 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,679 other end of this, and so I think that's super cool to just acknowledge 434 00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,320 them. And you're right, it's a it's a dopamine hit. Yeah, 435 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,760 I mean you you can look at it. Actually two from it just a 436 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,000 statistical value driven standpoint, Your software isn't delivering value or the changes that you 437 00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:13,079 make until someone's using it. And if they don't know that the changes that 438 00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:15,480 you're deployed you've worked so hard to get out, you know, aren't there 439 00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:19,639 or you know what they've done. There are so many open source projects that 440 00:36:20,119 --> 00:36:22,400 you don't know when it's going to be released after you put in a polear 441 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,880 quest. I mean my strategy now is first I start with the issue. 442 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,840 I'd be like, this is a problem. Is someone like if I submit 443 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,039 a pole request, will it get merged? Yeah? And ninety nine percent 444 00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:37,920 of the time I never hear back. There is like sometimes I hear back 445 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:44,360 within six months, which is just so ridiculous to me. Frequently I hear 446 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,719 back with that baby agile. Agile is thirty days. I hear back from 447 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,320 their box saying, no one's meant put a comment on this for thirty days. 448 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:58,960 We're going to close it automatically. I'm like, thank you, yeah 449 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:00,559 and again. And I think, like we can. I think we can. 450 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:05,400 Definitely there's things we can improve, but at least we were trying to 451 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,360 be intentional about those things. I mean, I remember uh from the CDK 452 00:37:09,519 --> 00:37:15,519 at some point. It is really hard to maintain a big open source project. 453 00:37:16,159 --> 00:37:22,800 And once one of the problems with this is is that there's an asymmetry 454 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:28,760 between the capacity you have with the team, with the core team, which 455 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,159 is usually a fixed size or you know, maybe growing a little bit every 456 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:37,519 year, and and and the user base, which is sometimes exponentially growing or 457 00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:40,800 sometimes growing like crazy, and the contribute and the contributor base as well. 458 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:50,960 And if you don't have automation, if you don't have like really great workflows 459 00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,719 for like accepting contributions and dealing with them. It's just immediately, very quickly 460 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,599 gets you overwhelming for the for the core team, and the CDK had like 461 00:38:01,519 --> 00:38:06,800 still I think really struggling with this because you know, anyways just keeps growing. 462 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,000 There's like more and more services, more and more capabilities. The CDK 463 00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:15,679 definitely is perfect for contribution in that sense. It's like, oh, yeah, 464 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,400 just they eded this new feature in Lambdough, let's just expose it in 465 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,199 the CDK. So it's like these are really simple contributions and so people can 466 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,119 can really participate, but you need someone to review this, you need someone 467 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,039 to accept it, you need someone to and so it's it's a challenge. 468 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:37,440 It's a big challenge with big projects. So definitely I can also you know, 469 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,280 I can also be empathetic to the other side in that sense. That's 470 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,960 what I'm trying to say. Yeah, for sure, so and now and 471 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:51,880 so with weing, you've got that problem, but also with the other cloud 472 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,719 providers as well, because you are supporting all the different cloud providers, right 473 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,119 right, I guess we can't say all because I don't even know what all 474 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:06,280 really. Someone someone who said the cloud flare back, right, which is 475 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:10,119 oh, yeah, right, Uh, they seem to have all the primitives 476 00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:15,679 we need now to build the standard library. Yeah, and we don't. 477 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,960 We don't. We also don't have full support for all all the kind of 478 00:39:19,079 --> 00:39:22,840 traditional providers. As I said, it's kind of like a matrix that we're 479 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:28,719 filling up. We have the foundation for testing everything, which is really important. 480 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,159 So like if you fill up something, it goes into the goes into 481 00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:35,599 the factory and starts, you know, and we start testing it every time 482 00:39:35,639 --> 00:39:43,000 you every time there's a change. And it's interesting to think about the cloud 483 00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:49,920 agnostic problem, which is I haven't mentioned it actually but in a way not 484 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,159 in a way, but we also solve that problem, right like because once 485 00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:57,480 you work against the substraction, then suddenly you're not you're portable. Your application 486 00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:00,679 can be ported across different implementation. Like you said, I can change the 487 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,920 bucket, I can change the cloud provider. And and I've been talking to 488 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:09,480 like tons of you know, people from the industry in the past two years, 489 00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:15,400 and this is a growing pain. It feels like I've seen more and 490 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:22,679 more people concerned about portability, both from a cost perspective. Just talk to 491 00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:27,039 someone yesterday and they mentioned you know, they've been an AA base shop for 492 00:40:27,199 --> 00:40:30,639 many years and at some point just became really expensive and Atabase was wouldn't you 493 00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:34,679 know, wouldn't give them any discounts, And so they said, Okay, 494 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,280 we're gonna move some of our workloads to GCP or to AZURE. I think 495 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:43,400 I don't remember what it was, but just just just pointing out that I 496 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,159 think, like, as the cloud is evolving and people have bigger workloads and 497 00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:53,880 more stakes than the fact that the power is in the hands of the vendor 498 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:59,920 as opposed as opposed to being in the hands of the of the user is 499 00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,559 I feel like it's not it's not the good. It's not good for the 500 00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:08,039 industry eventually, right, Like it's not good for anyone, and Wing is 501 00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:15,760 solving that problem again still early, still have a lot of work to do, 502 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:20,079 but like at least from at least uh, you know, architecturally, 503 00:41:20,159 --> 00:41:23,239 this is a solution to this problem. And I'm seeing more and more people 504 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:30,320 talk about this. I think the other the other anecdotally like weren't like kind 505 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:35,320 of related to what you asked earlier. I'm seeing a lot more vendors wanting 506 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:42,320 to support self hosted solutions because of those concerns about you know, data where 507 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,159 the data is stored and going out of your account, and and so in 508 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:50,880 those examples are like they're not they're not SaaS providers. They are vendors that 509 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:54,599 create services, but they want to be able to deploy them in customer accounts 510 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:01,840 across different cloud providers. And right now, the only reasonable solution, which 511 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,199 is which you know, I don't actually think it's like a fully it's not 512 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:13,079 real in a sense, it's to use pure Kubernetes, right And the reality 513 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:15,960 of that is actually pretty harsh because first of all, you're really limited in 514 00:42:16,039 --> 00:42:21,320 terms of like the resources that you can use outside of your Kubernetes cluster. 515 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,480 So once you start you need a bucket. Then okay, we need this 516 00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:30,760 abstraction again. And two is Kubernetes, as much as we wanted to think 517 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:37,360 about it as like cloud agnostic and portable, and the reality is that the 518 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,559 distributions are very different. The versioning are very are different, vms are different, 519 00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:46,599 the VM types are different, the volumes are different, the managed you 520 00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:51,559 know, Kubernetes solutions are different, and so you end up having to like 521 00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,639 actually test yes this works with the GCP Kubernetes, and with the abase Kubernetes, 522 00:42:55,639 --> 00:43:00,400 and and so even this is not truly so the only portable thing in 523 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,360 this world is the container in a way, or you know, your application 524 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:09,199 that's running inside Kubernetes, which is a bit unfortunate, I feel, because 525 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:15,119 I know that a lot of people are using Kubernetes with the sense of cloud 526 00:43:15,159 --> 00:43:17,000 portability, and then when when they actually need it, it's, uh, 527 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:23,000 it's much harder than than they expect. For sure, because you dhorn I 528 00:43:23,039 --> 00:43:27,360 would say, you heard it here first, are using Kubernetes for cloud portability. 529 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:31,199 Stop it. You're you're not getting the value out for sure. It's 530 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,199 been a it's been a slow transition like that, you know, because as 531 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:43,280 Kubernetes has matured, you see like little things that steer you towards a cloud 532 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:49,239 agnostic or a cloud specific solution. Like whenever you set up your ingress for 533 00:43:50,679 --> 00:43:54,480 for your service, if you're in GCEP, you know, you use one 534 00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:58,760 type of ingress, or if you're using uh, you know, the the 535 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:00,920 Amazon managed kuberne As, you'll use a different ingress and then you try to 536 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,559 move it to a different Kubernetes cluster and you're like, oh damn it, 537 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,559 I've screwed. Yeah, and then you end up with like overlays and tim 538 00:44:10,679 --> 00:44:19,119 plates and patching and taint different taints, and I don't I don't even know 539 00:44:19,199 --> 00:44:24,639 all the but I just wanted to make sure that I think Kubernetes is a 540 00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:31,039 really great and powerful tool I have. I think that oftentimes people use it 541 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:38,400 without really needing all this power and these capabilities. And oftentimes people use it 542 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:43,239 because they think that they're not going to be locked to a cloud provider. 543 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,840 But that's not really. But but there are I've seen amazing use cases of 544 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,280 Kubernetes, and I think, like, you know, definitely, by the 545 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:55,480 way, people who need like on prem container orchestration right amazing, right, 546 00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:59,199 Like I don't, I don't know that there's a better solution for them. 547 00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:02,519 No, I'm totally with you on that. I mean, I'll say the 548 00:45:02,519 --> 00:45:07,480 controversial thing, which is, I believe there's probably one percent of the use 549 00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:12,079 cases are Kubernetes, and the ninety nine percent you probably don't need that, 550 00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:15,039 you know. I feel like from experience it's something related to GPUs or on 551 00:45:15,159 --> 00:45:22,639 prem you have if you have need to deploy like a very high cardinality number 552 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:29,239 of containers with minor tweaks to the variables or parameters for each of those containers, 553 00:45:29,519 --> 00:45:31,559 then for sure, one hundred percent Kubernetes, nothing else is going to 554 00:45:31,559 --> 00:45:36,280 give you that level of control with the repeatability. I just find that, 555 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:42,079 as you said, there is hypothetical value associated with portability or cross platform same 556 00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:44,840 way like, oh, if we use terraform, we'll just be able to 557 00:45:45,559 --> 00:45:50,360 immediately change clouds, just like that with the infrastructure. I think it's it's 558 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,320 for sure the same mistake. But at the application level. That's my highly 559 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:58,239 controversial opinion. I'm not going to get my mind changed anytime soon, but 560 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:00,400 you know, feel free to write me some letters to my email. Yeah 561 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:06,199 I would. I would also add that the ecosystem that's evolved around Kubernetes is 562 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,679 amazing, and I think a lot of people use Kubernetes because of that ecosystem, 563 00:46:09,679 --> 00:46:15,559 because they have, you know, great tools in Kubernetes that enable them 564 00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:20,960 to do observability and c ICD and the or and I see or you also 565 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,039 have another Yeah, I know, right, this is hot take episode. 566 00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:30,599 I think that there's uh. There was a controversial AI developer Devin who I'm 567 00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:32,159 sure everyone is aware of at this point, and I feel like there's a 568 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:38,119 it's very difficult to separate out core problem solving from solving problems that were created 569 00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:43,480 by the infrastructure or architecture that you've picked. So ideally, if using a 570 00:46:43,519 --> 00:46:46,119 cloud provider, you don't need to monitor and observe what's going on there. 571 00:46:46,119 --> 00:46:50,760 If using Kubernetes, you for sure do. So. Yes, all the 572 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,400 great tools for observability only work with Kubernetes because you need them to work. 573 00:46:53,599 --> 00:47:00,400 Otherwise you're like, what is going on and by infrastructure staff? Yeah, 574 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,159 what's wrong with me? Why don't I Why don't I need to use all 575 00:47:04,159 --> 00:47:08,039 these observability cool observability tools be with the cool kids. No, No, 576 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:13,800 it's interesting. I mean you definitely get you definitely get left out right because 577 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:15,920 you're not using that thing. I hear very frequently using Oh, we can't 578 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:21,559 use Lambda or cloud functions or even cloud run because they don't offer the same 579 00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,480 sort of integration. I mean, I think the truth is almost everything offers 580 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,920 hotel integration at this point, So you know, forget that, you know 581 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,800 that's no longer the truth, But for sure, you just don't need to 582 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,000 integrate with things because the hope is that you don't need to and I imagine, 583 00:47:35,039 --> 00:47:37,559 you know, with wing Lang you're writing stuff in a way that is 584 00:47:37,679 --> 00:47:42,159 agnostic, and you also hopefully don't need to know the observer. I don't 585 00:47:42,199 --> 00:47:44,239 know, maybe I'm saying too much. I assume you know, some sort 586 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:50,840 of observability back end configuration or integration exists in some way. It exists in 587 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,119 a roadmap. It doesn't exist yet, but it definitely exists in a roadmap. 588 00:47:53,119 --> 00:47:59,159 We want to We do want hotel to be built in to Wing, 589 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:05,480 which is actually really exciting. I can wait to get there. I know 590 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:07,039 a lot of people are jumping for joy over the fact that, oh I 591 00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:09,639 get that for free now, and I don't have to write a whole bunch 592 00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:15,599 of things to run a sidecar. Actually it's really timely because there was just 593 00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:22,199 a huge vulnerability discovered in a fluent bit I think like literally today, where 594 00:48:22,679 --> 00:48:28,599 there's a huge problem there and anyone running it there's a promote code execution vulnerability 595 00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:32,840 that you need to go and patch. Oh okay, well I guess I 596 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:43,400 know what I'm doing this second. I don't over I mean so literally asked 597 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,519 a question, is it worse than mug for Jay, so still being determined. 598 00:48:47,599 --> 00:48:51,519 Oh wow, the fact that you have to pause to answer that question 599 00:48:51,679 --> 00:48:59,840 is not a great indicator. This is concerning Yeah, so you mentioned that 600 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:04,320 hotels on your roadmap. What else is on your roadmap? For Wing? 601 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:15,400 One of the one of the pieces of of the solution is what we call 602 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:22,719 the WING Console, which is this graphical user interface that allows you to interact 603 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:29,679 with your cloud application. And again it starts from the developer, from the 604 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,880 inner loop, right like you're because we're running inside a simulator, and so 605 00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:37,119 now you want to be able to see that when you put something in the 606 00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:39,559 bucket, it's actually there, and you know, send a request through the 607 00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:44,880 API or put some message in the queue and see that it's behaving the way 608 00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:46,679 you want it and run your tests. And so it's kind of like this. 609 00:49:47,199 --> 00:49:51,519 Currently it's kinrent of like a development tool, but one of the things 610 00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:59,079 that we're working on is getting the same view to connect to your production system. 611 00:49:59,559 --> 00:50:01,840 And and I think that I'm really excited about this because one of the 612 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:08,239 cool things about this view is that it has a logical model of your application. 613 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:15,440 So if you design your application, and every developer designs your application through 614 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,639 composition. Right, they say, okay, this, I'm taking my problem, 615 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,280 I'm breaking it down to smaller pieces, and each piece solves a certain 616 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,119 part of the problem, and there's like interfaces, and you know, I 617 00:50:27,159 --> 00:50:30,239 can test each piece in isolation blah blah blah. But then you compose things 618 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,239 together and it becomes this like tree. Right, so you have like your 619 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:39,199 application and then your inger system and your storage system and your outbound connector and 620 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:45,480 whatever. Right, So it basically create some kind of a hierarchical logical structure. 621 00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:49,960 And one of the things that I've seen with the CDK, and the 622 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,480 CDK also allows you to do that, Like CDK has this concept called constructs 623 00:50:53,519 --> 00:51:00,760 that basically allow you to compose a smaller you know, composed truck together into 624 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,360 higher level, higher level abstractions. And one of the things that I've seen 625 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,599 with the CDK is that people are a bit reluctant to use these constructs to 626 00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:15,719 create logical abstractions because they they're lost when the abstractions are when the system is 627 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:21,320 deployed. So you have this beautiful view right of your system and all these 628 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,639 logical units, but then you end up deploying them and they break down to 629 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:30,400 their atoms in a sense, right, like they break down become queues and 630 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,760 buckets and containers and you know, topics, and like you're just you're unable 631 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,880 to have like this logical you don't have this logical view of your system anymore. 632 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:45,320 And so this console being able to actually see the same logical view in 633 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:51,400 production, and being able to reason about your application in production the same way 634 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,679 you reason about it and during development the same way you wrote your code, 635 00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:00,920 and having this trace stability between something that happens and in production on the cloud 636 00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:06,599 and the logical unit in the code that actually you know, like you know, 637 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,199 I have this queue filled up. Okay, so this is a low 638 00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:15,599 level error. But then if I understand that this que belongs to some certain 639 00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:19,559 piece of the system, I can react much more much quickly. I can 640 00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:24,000 understand exactly who's responsible for this. I can diagnose problems much better. And 641 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:29,639 and so that's another thing that we're working on. The I think it's I 642 00:52:29,639 --> 00:52:32,159 feel like that's something that's not work like definitely not to skip over, like 643 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,679 when you're using stuff like the CDK, it's a bunch of transformation steps, 644 00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,559 and so one of the transformations you lose sort of all of the metadata that 645 00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:44,599 happens in the step before its CDK turns into CloudFormation templates, which ends up 646 00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:47,320 in AWS, and it's like one direction. All that basically means you have 647 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,599 a bi directional view. You're able to look at what's actually deployed in production, 648 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,039 combine it with the metadata that's in your in the written for wing, 649 00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,679 and see that picture from the outside without needing a WS to make fundamental changes 650 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,960 to their tagging system or I mean, I'm sure there's some clever ways of 651 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,840 getting that metadata am so you can pull it back out later, but they 652 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,559 don't have to make changes to the cloud in order to directly be able to 653 00:53:09,559 --> 00:53:13,719 support this view, which is what we need to happen with stuff like the 654 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:19,480 CDK or even terrorform, which doesn't command or really look into your production cloud 655 00:53:19,559 --> 00:53:22,719 environment to understand what's going on. It's just one direction, you know, 656 00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,239 transform, have to transform until you're there. Yeah, it's kind of leaky 657 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,039 in that sense, right because basically the abstraction is leaking out and that and 658 00:53:30,039 --> 00:53:37,199 and also in many cases you have different people involved in the operations of the 659 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:43,559 system and so not having like a shared mental model of the system is sometimes 660 00:53:43,599 --> 00:53:46,159 a huge problem, and I think you know people what people do is that 661 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:52,960 they they use tagging, they they create dashboards. Dashboards sometimes is basically just 662 00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:57,639 a way to restore some logical view, right they Oh, all of these 663 00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:00,519 resources belong to this part of the system, and so now when I'm walking 664 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,880 looking at the dashboard, I understand that something happened in this part of the 665 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,760 system. But with WING, you really don't have to do this manual because 666 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:14,599 we know all this information from your code, which is exciting. I mean 667 00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:16,599 I feel like as actually trying to go in this direction a little bit, 668 00:54:16,639 --> 00:54:21,360 but then clearly didn't get it turned into a product or a service in the 669 00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,719 aws's view, which is like I don't want to see the underlying primitives as 670 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:29,000 you put it here, Like I want to see the service components and the 671 00:54:29,079 --> 00:54:31,199 architecture that I've deployed, as I understand it. When I go to the 672 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:36,800 homepage of AWS console, I want to see my individual services laid out there 673 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:38,920 that I can click on directly and not be like, oh wait, this 674 00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,199 service is made up of a container, plus it's running Kubernetes, and then 675 00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:45,000 there's these other things like I just want to see one blog and I can 676 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:47,920 click on it and it will tell me. Data is fine, Logs are 677 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,119 great, monitoring, observabili everything's great. There, connections in and out a 678 00:54:52,119 --> 00:54:54,119 shop good, right, flows fantastic. I don't want to have to jump 679 00:54:54,119 --> 00:55:00,400 into those underlying primitives to understand them. Yeah, I agree. I think 680 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:05,519 a lot of them went too far with that, Like they tried to show 681 00:55:05,599 --> 00:55:08,760 that, but then in doing so, they ended up showing you know, 682 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,760 like, oh, here's the four hundred security groups that were created. Was 683 00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:15,159 as a result of this template, and like, ah, okay, thanks, 684 00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:22,679 but really really not helpful, man. Yeah, I mean I can 685 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,400 also be empathetic to a w S society of the world in that sense, 686 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:31,159 because one of the beautiful things about Amazon, and really for me it was 687 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:38,000 it was it was just empower incredibly empowering. Is this two pizza team model, 688 00:55:38,159 --> 00:55:43,360 you know? And I'm assuming like it's basically like this operational model of 689 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,320 the company that says, you know, there's a there's a small team that's 690 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:52,119 responsible for a certain type of product delivered to customers. They just obsess about 691 00:55:52,199 --> 00:55:57,119 making these customers happy and and it's it's and it's real, like and the 692 00:55:57,199 --> 00:56:00,440 empowerment is real, Like the ability of that team to actually make decisions and 693 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:07,760 deliver without interruption is I haven't seen that anywhere. And I think one of 694 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:13,559 the results of this is that it's really hard to create like a holistic view, 695 00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:16,760 right, Like I think like as customers both aws. You actually also 696 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,599 see this in the Amazon website, right, Like you go to an Amazon 697 00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:27,079 product page and there's like a eleven thousand services involved in like rendering this page, 698 00:56:27,519 --> 00:56:31,800 and it's horrible, right Like, it's like it's clear that nobody has 699 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:38,519 like this holistic you know, intention about how this needs to look. But 700 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:44,639 it's good enough, and it's like, you know, very valuable to customers. 701 00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:47,760 And I think like this is saying kind of like DNA Amazon DNA, 702 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:57,280 that's like leaking out to the experience because Amazon is really intentional about this trade 703 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:02,639 office like saying, we prefer that teams would have independence because otherwise it's just, 704 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:07,239 you know, with such a big organization, so many services and so 705 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:12,480 many teams just becomes like a you know, a standstill at some point if 706 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:19,199 you have to, Like so, I can't even imagine what that would look 707 00:57:19,239 --> 00:57:25,159 like if you had every developer at Amazon had to go through like a single 708 00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:30,599 infrastructure team to build something we would it takes like six months to get a 709 00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:35,239 PR through. There's a there's a couple of other cloud providers out there who 710 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,360 may be following that model, and you know, maybe that's what it looks 711 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:44,119 like. I mean, I see I see WING as this like you know, 712 00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:46,760 imagine AWS worked exactly as it did, but there are a couple of 713 00:57:46,800 --> 00:57:52,000 things that are cross cutting that just salt Like everyone's like, how can tags 714 00:57:52,039 --> 00:57:54,079 not be ubiquitous? Right? There are a couple of things like that which 715 00:57:54,079 --> 00:57:58,800 are which would really make the developer experience so much better. And I feel 716 00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:04,119 like maybe it's WING that's giving you that. I think. I think the 717 00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:09,039 way we kind of circumvent the challenge is by reducing the surface area, right, 718 00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:15,880 because trying to do this across one hundred and eighty services of ABS is 719 00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,119 no reasonable, right, especially not for a small startup. It's not also 720 00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:22,400 reasonable for like a team of databas. I think one of the challenges we've 721 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:27,360 had with the CDK and constantly having with the CDK, and I think CloudFormation 722 00:58:27,559 --> 00:58:32,480 is also having this challenge is basically racing AWS and making sure there's coverage for 723 00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:37,920 all the research for the capabilities and feed new features and new services that spin 724 00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:40,119 up every year. And so what we've done with WINGS is said, Okay, 725 00:58:43,079 --> 00:58:45,679 hold on for a second, Let's see what's the foundation that is, 726 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:51,480 you know, good enough to build a majority of the applications or a good 727 00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:54,280 you know, a good chunk of the applications and create a really great developer 728 00:58:54,320 --> 00:59:01,320 experience for that. And it is a very extensible kind of ecosystem play that 729 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:06,360 we're doing. And so you can actually create libraries and we have like people 730 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,280 starting to like publish libraries for Wing and so like it is designed to offer 731 00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:15,760 you a general purpose solution. But what we're trying to do is we're trying 732 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,400 to focus on the foundation. I think like it's a it's a it's a 733 00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,480 reverse pyramid, uh. And I think one of the problems with AWS is 734 00:59:22,559 --> 00:59:30,280 kind of architectural philosophy is that there's no pyramid in in internally a a WS, 735 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:36,400 all services are created equal. So s Ree and Robomaker are basically the 736 00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:39,239 same, has the same kind of you know, place in the in the 737 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,639 architecture. Right, Like it's kind of like a it's a it's a mesh 738 00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:46,760 of services as opposed to being like a stack. And I think like not 739 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:52,280 having a stack makes it really hard for a ws's teams to prioritize and say, 740 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,239 okay, this is this, these are part of the foundational stack. 741 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,679 Let's make sure that you know, we get it in practice, this is 742 00:59:59,719 --> 01:00:04,440 what right like in practice, when we started a CDK, we've you know, 743 01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:09,119 we've created as three abstraction API would create it like we've actually done practically, 744 01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:13,440 we've done that. But but I think it's if when you don't have 745 01:00:13,519 --> 01:00:20,280 that architecturally, then you can't really build holistic experiences based on that stock. 746 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,000 And then that's what we're trying to do with me. I don't know if 747 01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:34,880 that made sense philosophical Sometimes it just goes that way. Yeah, So from 748 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,719 a practical perspective, what does it look like to get started with Wing? 749 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:45,000 Like if I have my application and of like it's it's already built and running, 750 01:00:45,079 --> 01:00:50,159 but I'm signing off on this new approach. How do I what's the 751 01:00:50,199 --> 01:00:53,639 transition project or transition process look like for saying I'm going to use Wing to 752 01:00:53,719 --> 01:00:59,119 do that? And how do I get started? So first of all, 753 01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:02,000 it's you know, open source and go to Wing lang dot io and you 754 01:01:02,039 --> 01:01:07,360 can download it and install it and run it on your machine and it's free, 755 01:01:07,519 --> 01:01:13,159 and uh, you get the simulator and the console and everything. And 756 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,599 what what we've that's actually an interesting you know, it's an interest. It's 757 01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:22,239 a it's a more interesting question. I think that you that maybe we want 758 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,719 it to be at this point. But what we've started to do with Wing 759 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:31,400 is we basically said we want to start from the ideal experience. We want 760 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:37,280 to put it to put that in place. And and so what we've done 761 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,320 is we actually created a programming language. We haven't talked about this, but 762 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:45,679 we've actually created a programming language that's that has that has these ideas baked into 763 01:01:45,719 --> 01:01:51,880 the language, and it's built on top of this standard library. It's built 764 01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,400 on top of this you know, set of abstractions, but it also has 765 01:01:54,440 --> 01:02:00,280 this really cool thing called in flight functions, and the idea of inflight functions 766 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:05,719 in the way it's kind of like ACYNC functions in traditional languages, only that 767 01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:09,880 inflant functions not only run later in time, they also run in a different 768 01:02:10,039 --> 01:02:14,920 place, so you can actually package them and ship them to the cloud. 769 01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:21,119 And what you could do with inflight functions is basically represent the application logic, 770 01:02:21,159 --> 01:02:29,360 the run time behavior of your system within the same programming model that you're describing 771 01:02:29,559 --> 01:02:32,599 the cloud resources that you're using. So you can basically say new bucket, 772 01:02:32,719 --> 01:02:38,840 new queue, new container, and then you can basically specify the code that's 773 01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:43,800 running inside the container in the same programming space or new function, new Lembda 774 01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:49,400 function. And the cool thing about this is that when you write this code, 775 01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:54,239 this inflight code, you can interact between your inflight and your pre flight 776 01:02:54,320 --> 01:03:00,519 resources. So you can basically say bucket, dot put and when this, 777 01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:05,320 when this is basically compiled, it compiles to terra form or to any other 778 01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:07,679 uh you know target platform. As I said, right like, it's a 779 01:03:07,719 --> 01:03:12,280 customizable thing. So we actually have an a b c DK platform, the 780 01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:16,679 compilsitor that can be deployed through cloud formation. And we have someone asking about 781 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,280 cross plane platform, which is interesting, right like, basically compiled to Kubernetes 782 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:29,039 siamos and deployed through through Kubernetes. And but when you compile to the Staria 783 01:03:29,079 --> 01:03:32,960 platform, the compiler is able to basically bind your runt time code with your 784 01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,559 infrastructure. And so it basically says, okay, so you need to be 785 01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:38,440 able to put file in the bucket. Great, I need to know the 786 01:03:38,519 --> 01:03:42,400 name of the let's say I'm on S three, I need to know the 787 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,280 bucket name, and I need the im permissions, these im permissions in order 788 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:52,320 to actually deliver this this application code and and so you get this really really 789 01:03:52,360 --> 01:04:00,079 really nice end to end holistic experience. But what we're realizing, and I 790 01:04:00,079 --> 01:04:04,440 guess it's pretty obvious, but what we're doing right now is we're basically offer 791 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:10,079 it starting to offer the ability to use WING just for the infrastructure piece. 792 01:04:10,239 --> 01:04:15,239 So basically use all these APIs, but then just bring in your own LAMB 793 01:04:15,239 --> 01:04:18,760 the function or your own container. And we already have support for containers, 794 01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:24,039 which is pretty cool. We're working on some support for LAMBDAM And in this 795 01:04:24,199 --> 01:04:28,599 case you're binding between your infrastructure and your application. Is obviously requires a bit 796 01:04:28,639 --> 01:04:34,159 more a bit more work because those things are now decoupled and not coupled together 797 01:04:34,239 --> 01:04:40,320 into the same language. And so to your question, if you have existing 798 01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:45,360 code, you can take your application code and use it and then replace your 799 01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:49,320 infrastructure code with WING. So would it be maybe it's like terraform or CloudFormation, 800 01:04:49,719 --> 01:04:54,000 So you can basically use way to define your infrastructure and basically point to 801 01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:57,719 your application code and bind it together, and then it starts running in a 802 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:04,199 simulator and you can start compiling different cloud platforms. So yeah, it's it's, 803 01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,920 it's it's definitely a theme that we've we're working on now, and we 804 01:05:09,079 --> 01:05:13,760 kind of have some more work to do in order to streamline this experience because 805 01:05:14,679 --> 01:05:17,679 obviously we understand that most people already have some work clouds, and we really 806 01:05:17,719 --> 01:05:23,559 do want to be able to bring the value immediately, right Like it doesn't 807 01:05:23,599 --> 01:05:28,760 mean it, yeah for sure, And I think it's that's kind of kind 808 01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,159 of the reason I phrased the question the way I did, because I think 809 01:05:32,639 --> 01:05:40,320 as a community or as an industry, maybe we're all sort of looking for 810 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:45,880 that solution that says, Okay, I'm I'm down with cloud infrastructure, but 811 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:50,079 that's not the solution every time. And you know, we talked we've talked 812 01:05:50,079 --> 01:05:55,719 about this already in the episode, that there's a desire to have cloud agnostic 813 01:05:55,880 --> 01:06:00,360 solutions and so there's all this legacy stuff and it's problems that we haven't really 814 01:06:00,239 --> 01:06:04,679 face before or saw before. So I think you're very early in this, 815 01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:12,199 and there's there's no path right now where you're you're kind of cutting your own 816 01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:15,079 path, as are some other people in the industry to figure out what this 817 01:06:15,159 --> 01:06:19,559 looks like. And I think it's like the future of what the whole infrastructure 818 01:06:19,599 --> 01:06:24,440 world is going to look like a few years from now. They're very optimistic. 819 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,760 I like the fact that you both laughed at me, like I've done. 820 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,719 No, I was, I was. I was happy to hear that. 821 01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:38,960 No. Obviously obviously optimistic. I was. I was, I obviously 822 01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:41,920 you know, I always, I really do believe that. You know, 823 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,199 as an engineers, we we want to solve problems. Eventually we solve them. 824 01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,199 It takes time. We need to crack the crack, the solutions, 825 01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:54,760 crack. The The business around solving those problems is you know, one of 826 01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,920 the things that I'm you know, challenged by right now is like, Okay, 827 01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:01,039 I'm an engineer, but you need to build a business act and create 828 01:07:01,079 --> 01:07:05,559 like a commercial story around this. But it's all problem solving eventually, so 829 01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,679 we'll figure things out. No, I mean, I think it's right on 830 01:07:09,719 --> 01:07:13,320 point, because actually last week on the episode, we were talking about the 831 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,000 fact that there needs to be probably a compaction in the space. We need 832 01:07:16,039 --> 01:07:21,559 to do some sort of depth first evaluation on a bunch of different things until 833 01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:27,079 we find one that actually solves a majority of our stack, majority of the 834 01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:30,599 problems that we're having, and then sort of eliminate all of the previous examples. 835 01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:33,679 And so right now we're not really sure, especially in the infrastructure deployment 836 01:07:33,719 --> 01:07:36,800 area. I feel like, as Will you pointed out, we don't really 837 01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,840 know what the best answer is at this moment, and for sure what we've 838 01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,920 got is not appropriate. Like we can see that there's lots of churn, 839 01:07:44,039 --> 01:07:48,599 lots of struggle in the different areas, So I think realistically you may actually 840 01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:55,400 want to start fresh with something new to examine it. There's not really another 841 01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,639 way, But you know, Flo, as you said, it's a business, 842 01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,480 right, I think trying to capture those existing everyone has something today, 843 01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:08,199 likely if they're making money in some way, So trying to do that migration 844 01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:15,119 is going to be a critical path forward totally and possibly, like you were 845 01:08:15,159 --> 01:08:19,560 just alluding to Warren, maybe a bit premature. Like the first thing is 846 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:24,560 to just do a new project and see what the see what it looks like, 847 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,079 and kind of iron out that flow and then figure out, Okay, 848 01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,439 now, how do we use this to onboard all of the legacy stuff that 849 01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:36,800 we're that kind of forced us to look at this problem. Oh yeah, 850 01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,960 every company should be doing pocs with experiments like I don't know, each team 851 01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:45,439 should be doing at least once maybe once a month. And if they're not, 852 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:48,039 you know, then you have this extra capacity where you're not actually figuring 853 01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:53,039 out how can we push our business forward with a huge step change? Right? 854 01:08:53,079 --> 01:08:55,239 You know, how what can we do with innovative in our space? 855 01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:58,720 So it doesn't really matter where it's at, the idea is, of course, 856 01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:02,119 experiment with something new and figure out how you can maybe use that effective 857 01:09:02,239 --> 01:09:08,039 in a future real business case. Yeah. So yeah, if people are 858 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:15,319 experimenting with wing, we'd love feedback. We'd love to learn about people's use 859 01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:18,119 cases and what they're trying to achieve and what they like, what they don't 860 01:09:18,239 --> 01:09:24,760 like. More than happy to talk to anyone. What's the time commitment look 861 01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:30,079 like for checking out like the Hello World version of using wing? How long 862 01:09:30,119 --> 01:09:33,960 does it take to get up and run? In? Fifteen minutes? Ten 863 01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:40,079 minutes? Nice, super quick, super quick? Right on? I think 864 01:09:40,119 --> 01:09:43,720 you've got a I don't think you saw this a whole Discord community dedicated to 865 01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:50,399 the project to Yeah, it was a Slack community until last week. So 866 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:55,880 yeah, come join our new Discord. It's it's uh, we're ramping it 867 01:09:56,000 --> 01:10:00,960 up and it's been just a coincidence. Has nothing to do with their policy 868 01:10:00,039 --> 01:10:05,119 change, Actually not, it's it has to do with you know, the 869 01:10:05,399 --> 01:10:10,359 community just grew to a point where it was like didn't make sense financially to 870 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:15,560 support the slack Slack stuff. Yeah, for sure that that gets out of 871 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:21,399 control really really quick. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, as you mentioned, 872 01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:26,800 Warren, the policy change has been has been the best thing to happen 873 01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:31,199 to Discord in years. I mean it's right online because uh, you know, 874 01:10:31,239 --> 01:10:34,159 Discord wants to IPO at some point, so uh you know, I 875 01:10:34,199 --> 01:10:38,720 feel like having those wins in there in their bag is important. Just need 876 01:10:38,840 --> 01:10:46,880 Microsoft teams to uh continue on. It's pretty as bad. Yeah. Every 877 01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,560 product has their like product name and tagline. For Discord, it's going to 878 01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:58,800 be Discord. We're not Slack. Yeah, it's it's I like, I 879 01:10:59,239 --> 01:11:04,800 really like the playfulness and the like. There's some weirdness, like it takes 880 01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:10,159 use to definitely if you're coming from Slack, But I like the pay playfulness. 881 01:11:10,239 --> 01:11:14,840 I like all the community features, the events, the uh. It 882 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:20,279 definitely feels like we've debated it when we started the when we started the community, 883 01:11:20,319 --> 01:11:24,079 and it was a mistake. I feel like we should have started with 884 01:11:24,119 --> 01:11:29,640 Discord. I feel like Discord has come a long way, and probably in 885 01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:33,920 the last two years, I'm going to say as far as like the number 886 01:11:33,960 --> 01:11:40,560 of features and options, but the biggest one for me has been the improvements 887 01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:45,239 they've made. And like the onboarding experience and getting started because it was early 888 01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:49,760 on it was a hassle to get connected and God forbid you. You get 889 01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:53,720 a second device and have to sign in again. It's like, ah, 890 01:11:54,119 --> 01:11:59,640 it's great, I'm just starting a new account. Yeah, totally. Or 891 01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,279 you make it through the onboarding experience and realized you did create a second account 892 01:12:02,319 --> 01:12:11,760 without meaning to cool. So anything that we should have covered that we haven't 893 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:16,800 talked about yet. For Wing, No, I think you let me talk 894 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:26,760 a lot. That's that's my job. Give an introvert to mic and everything 895 01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:32,520 else works itself out. Awesome, man, Well let's do some pics, 896 01:12:34,159 --> 01:12:38,039 Warren. Did you bring a pick this week? Yeah, of course, 897 01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:45,600 right, that's a sort of requirement for sure. My pick is going to 898 01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:48,600 be Building micro Services by Sam Newman, So I'm going to stay on my 899 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:55,479 book trend. Really, I feel like this is what converted me to personally 900 01:12:55,479 --> 01:13:00,119 the micro services in my career, where the advantages are really hot, to 901 01:13:00,159 --> 01:13:02,319 think about them, how to interface between them, how to build them effectively. 902 01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:06,279 Uh, it's a really great book. Honestly, I think it's still 903 01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:11,760 in the community. It's probably considered the I don't say holy Grail, but 904 01:13:12,239 --> 01:13:17,880 for sure relic that represents how to how to push the industry forward? Ran 905 01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:28,800 excellent. What about you? I'll pick The Three Body Problem. Have you 906 01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:35,319 had a chance to watch it? Both both actually like the the I read 907 01:13:35,359 --> 01:13:41,479 the books a while ago, and probably one of the best science fiction serious 908 01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,920 I've ever read. I really love science fiction, and this one's like the 909 01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,800 first book is a bit it. I actually read the first one and only 910 01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:54,920 read the second one kind of got came back to the serious few years later. 911 01:13:55,279 --> 01:13:57,800 It didn't, it didn't make it didn't. It didn't for some reason 912 01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:00,359 then when it didn't want to continue. But then as you continue to read 913 01:14:00,399 --> 01:14:11,199 the series, it's just amazing. It's just an amazing story and beautifully written 914 01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:16,720 and creative and it goes really really really far, and so I think like 915 01:14:17,159 --> 01:14:21,279 Netflix has just released the first season and it was so much fun to watch, 916 01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:28,399 especially knowing where this is going, and so highly recommend this the book 917 01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:34,880 series and the and the show. And it's like it's it's there's something I 918 01:14:34,920 --> 01:14:41,319 think I can tell, like the kind of like the theme basically is aliens 919 01:14:41,319 --> 01:14:45,800 are coming in three hundred years. We know that they're coming. What happens 920 01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:50,479 with humanity? Right? Like what what does this knowledge due to humanity? 921 01:14:50,680 --> 01:15:00,720 Right? Like that's just crazy? So right you mentioned you you also read 922 01:15:00,720 --> 01:15:03,960 a little bit some of it. I read the first two books and seen 923 01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:08,760 the show. Honestly, they're sort of like the same concept but different, 924 01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:14,800 completely different content as far as watching or reading. Obviously the same challenge, 925 01:15:15,079 --> 01:15:18,560 but they go in different directions, so you can get the same enjoyment twice 926 01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:23,159 by by going about them. It's not really like book is better than the 927 01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:25,960 movie. Yeah, yeah, which is very rare. It's very differ. 928 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:29,000 Both of them are very very well done, for sure. I mean I 929 01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:33,560 feel like you said something controversial when you said it's the best science fiction I 930 01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:40,159 have, you know, but I don't want to get this into an argument 931 01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:44,000 said, it's almost the best, because to me, the best always foundation. 932 01:15:44,159 --> 01:15:47,840 It's always like, oh man, see, you know, just agree 933 01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:51,560 to disagree there, Okay, no, no gloves come off, let's go. 934 01:15:53,039 --> 01:15:57,520 Oh for sure, for sure it's Frank Herbert's Dune, hands down, 935 01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,800 no question. I admit I didn't. I didn't read the book, so 936 01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,760 maybe I should. I know that I should know that I should. It's 937 01:16:04,359 --> 01:16:10,720 like the idea of world building is so far, even beyond the three body 938 01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,760 problem. How to think about it and the things that are generated in order 939 01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:18,000 to further the universe. Also the length of time, you know, much 940 01:16:18,039 --> 01:16:23,800 more further out than even three body problem. It's nuts, it's not you 941 01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:30,279 haven't read the last book. Yeah, so all right, So what I'm 942 01:16:30,279 --> 01:16:34,760 hearing here is Warren is going to go read the third book and then you're 943 01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:42,159 going to come back on the show and we're gonna Yeah, he's just trying 944 01:16:42,159 --> 01:16:45,720 to read The Expense now, which is also pretty good for sure, also 945 01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:51,359 great science fiction book. Will just trying to get out of sharing his pick 946 01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:58,039 though. Oh no, I'm ready with a pick. Mine is is it's 947 01:16:58,079 --> 01:17:01,560 about knife sharpening because I did not know this was a rabbit hole. I 948 01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:08,960 was gonna go down, right, So I ended up watching Alex over on 949 01:17:09,119 --> 01:17:14,399 the Outdoors fifty five YouTube channel on how to sharpen your knife. And he's 950 01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:19,439 got to have a complete list of his videos here. It doesn't say him 951 01:17:20,399 --> 01:17:26,479 two hundred and sixty three videos on how to sharpen your knives. I didn't 952 01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:29,880 know you could talk about it that many times, but they're all like super 953 01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:38,600 interesting. And as a result, I bought a diamond grit sharpening stone and 954 01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,600 have been going through and sharpening all my eyes And I thought I could do 955 01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:45,399 a pretty decent job of sharpening and eyes before, but this takes it to 956 01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:53,079 a whole new level, like surgical grade sharpening. And so go check out, 957 01:17:53,439 --> 01:17:59,319 go check out his channel. Outdoors fifty five is the YouTube channel for 958 01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:01,439 two reasons. One, so you can learn everything you didn't know that you 959 01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:05,600 needed to know about sharpening your knife. But also just like the content creation, 960 01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:12,279 yeah right, And but also just like for content creation, like how 961 01:18:12,279 --> 01:18:17,760 do you create two hundred and sixty three entertaining videos about the same topic, 962 01:18:18,159 --> 01:18:21,399 Because he's done that, so it's actually pretty cool to share off for two 963 01:18:21,439 --> 01:18:25,840 reasons, and that's my pick for the week. Cool, all right, 964 01:18:26,399 --> 01:18:29,720 well, thanks for joining us, Eeled. This is being cool and I'm 965 01:18:30,359 --> 01:18:33,479 yeah, I'm excited about this because I you know, I I really think 966 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:39,199 that this is the direction our industry is going is until it's an interesting space. 967 01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:44,960 There's quite a few people working on this, and and so yeah, 968 01:18:45,079 --> 01:18:47,039 I think it's super cool. Really appreciate you taking the time to come and 969 01:18:47,119 --> 01:18:51,840 sit with us on a show. Thanks for having me guys, yeah, 970 01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:58,880 Lawren, thank you, appreciate having you here and for yeah, I guess 971 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:03,159 most importantly to everyone listening, thanks for listening, because that's not really a 972 01:19:03,159 --> 01:19:06,640 whole lot of reason for us to do this if you're not listening. Oh 973 01:19:08,079 --> 01:19:13,479 does it for himself? Right? Awesome? All right, Well it's getting 974 01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:16,600 awkward at this point, so I'm gonna kill the stream and thanks again, 975 01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:18,239 and we'll see you all next week.