1 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,120 Hello, and welcome back to another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm 2 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,839 Sam Miguel Then, a staff editor at The Federalist Don't Forget. You can 3 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,320 email any comments or questions for the show to radio at the Federalist dot com, 4 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:33,439 follow us on Twitter at FDRLST, and make sure to subscribe wherever you 5 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,600 download your podcast as well. Today I am joined by Though Bishop, communications 6 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,399 director at the Mises Institute. Mises is a libertarian think tank that was chartered 7 00:00:43,399 --> 00:00:48,079 to promote the contributions of famed economist Ludwig von Mises that its founders believe are 8 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:52,600 being overlooked by the libertarian movement at large. Today, Thoe and I will 9 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:57,359 be discussing some different aspects of monetary and fiscal policy, including the US's diminishing 10 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,399 role as the economic hegemon, why people are still so obsessed with the bitcoin, 11 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:04,439 and how the US can integrate cryptocurrency into its monetary policy. I hope 12 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:11,599 you enjoy the show, so welcome. How's your day going doing great? 13 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,200 Thanks for having me, Nebron at least for coming on. So I was 14 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,359 wondering if we could start off with a brief explanation as to Mises institutes Niche 15 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,159 and how you guys are different than other libertarian organizations. Yes, it was 16 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,439 interesting, first and foremost we are far out of the Bolt way. We're 17 00:01:26,439 --> 00:01:29,359 down in Auburn, Alabama, and I think it has been to our benefit 18 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:33,400 in a variety of ways. What's interesting, though, is that you know, 19 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,120 within the libertarian movement, I think there's really kind of two strands of 20 00:01:37,159 --> 00:01:40,319 what you might call libertarianism itself. On the one side, I think you 21 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:46,040 have the sort of school of thought that I think is articulated by most of 22 00:01:46,079 --> 00:01:49,920 the people at Reason, increasingly so at CATO, and it kind of views 23 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:56,319 lib libertarianism almost like as a as a self It's it's a it's a very 24 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:04,840 liberal philosophy like self empowerment and a the ability to make yourself into whatever it 25 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,800 is you want to be. Therefore, it is very hostile to religion, 26 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:19,840 very hostile to borders, hostile to nation, very self actualization, I think 27 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,520 as a guiding philosophy there. In fact, Nicolspie, who disagree with strongly, 28 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,719 but I think he's very articulate with how he used libertarianism. A few 29 00:02:27,759 --> 00:02:31,400 years ago he said that he used libertarianism as the promotion of alternative lifestyles, 30 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,240 and therefore, if everyone can explore whatever lifestyle they want, then that is 31 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:40,639 what true liberty is. The Mesa's Institute our background, so lud von Mesas 32 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:45,960 was born in the Habsburg Empire, right, he was a man of old 33 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:51,719 Europe, and his view of liberalism was grounded very simply in property rights and 34 00:02:52,479 --> 00:02:55,439 a respect for what we might call natural order. So a lot of our 35 00:02:55,479 --> 00:03:05,039 scholars, when we talk about political order, there is a view that society 36 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,439 should elevate so that that naturally that there are people with great skill, with 37 00:03:10,479 --> 00:03:16,159 great investment in their communities, people that are generally wise, and that society 38 00:03:16,759 --> 00:03:23,280 or that that freedom comes from the order that wise leadership truly provides. That 39 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:29,360 property rights are the foundation of social cooperation. And so you know, I 40 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,199 know the bookie term out there of like libertarians or they care about themselves and 41 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:36,439 you know, the often childless and that sort of stuff. I think the 42 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:39,599 Institute orbit we have a great respect for the role that religion places a society, 43 00:03:39,599 --> 00:03:45,639 that history places in society, that nation mysus, you know. After 44 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:52,759 World War One he wrote about the importance of kind of liberal nationalism and language 45 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:59,280 groups and the destructive nature of having people from outside within, particularly within a 46 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:04,039 very introventional this government taking control of this state and using it to promote the 47 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:12,439 tools and policies that go against sort of the historical interests of a society there. 48 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:17,560 And so that has led to more of a social conservatism, often affiliated 49 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,639 with the institute of great respect for religion, particularly Christianity, a recognition that 50 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,639 Christianity is what made Europe great helped create that foundation of respect for liberty in 51 00:04:28,639 --> 00:04:33,279 the first place. And so while there was a time I think where both 52 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:40,600 libertarians of say the Reason crowd and the Mesa's crowd, there's a lot of 53 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,720 exploration and sort of the technosphere and sort of the private cities and things like 54 00:04:45,759 --> 00:04:47,800 that, and I think all of those are still very interesting projects, given 55 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,279 the degree to which cultural issues have really been pushed to the forefront, and 56 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:57,959 I think those cultural issues are subsidized by the state. The Institute crowd, 57 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,639 the Mesa's Institue crowd, I think as has become increasingly distanced and attacked, 58 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,199 and the attacks of both ways. I'm not kind of trying to portray one 59 00:05:05,199 --> 00:05:08,839 side as being more hostile than the other. There's libertarians are very good at 60 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,279 infighting in its own right. Um, but I think a recognition that the 61 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,519 state has been used to push society to the cultural left, and I think 62 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:21,319 there are many people within some of these organizations that are okay that that celebrate 63 00:05:21,519 --> 00:05:26,959 that cultural shift. They would just simply rather have it privatized, and so 64 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,120 that kind of rather than than some of the more heavy handed aspects of the 65 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,759 state. And so that leads to some of the debates going on right now 66 00:05:31,759 --> 00:05:34,439 with you know, what is the proper way of dealing with the company like 67 00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:39,079 Disney and Florida, Well, what is the proper way of dealing with private 68 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,319 tyranny in the form of vaccine mandates and things like that. The reason Cato 69 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,560 crowd were very defensive of privatized versions of this, whereas the Institute crowd, 70 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,199 you know, was kind of the perspective that know that these are these are 71 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,199 agents essentially of the regime and should be treated as such. And so I 72 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:01,959 think that's how these broader philosophical differences have manifested itself in very practical ways and 73 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,480 why you see again an increasing divide that it's kind of always been there within 74 00:06:05,639 --> 00:06:12,439 these different libertarian factions. Very interesting. It kind of reminds me of the 75 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:18,879 how there's always a inflation of, or rather a misassociation of libertarianism with libertinism. 76 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,759 How there's like, how you guys are trying to differentiate, you know, 77 00:06:21,879 --> 00:06:29,600 social conservatism is kind of it seems paramount into establishing a more free society 78 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,720 in a lot of regards than just allowing the worst of human nature to run 79 00:06:32,879 --> 00:06:38,000 amuck within us. Well, I think that's kind of yeah. I think 80 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:44,199 the irony comes in where if you recognize that the state's role in society should 81 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,560 be as limited as possible, which is some theory kind of the libertarian default 82 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,399 political position, then the other side of it is whatever places that right. 83 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,680 Liberited government only works if we have self governing individuals, and there are institutions 84 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,480 within society, be at the church, being civic groups, be at families, 85 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:03,759 that's they're supposed to fill that role. And so if you have no 86 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:10,000 respect for those intermediaries civil society institutions, then what's gonna happen is the state's 87 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,439 gonna get bigger and bigger. And I think that's that's a massive blind spot 88 00:07:12,439 --> 00:07:15,800 that comes from some of the cultural differences there, and that's something that even 89 00:07:15,839 --> 00:07:17,199 goes back to the Founding. You know, the founders were very aware of 90 00:07:17,279 --> 00:07:21,079 the fact that self governance wasn't just you know, city councils and school boards 91 00:07:21,079 --> 00:07:25,439 of those are paramount to this experiment, but it comes down to the individual. 92 00:07:25,879 --> 00:07:28,439 You have to be able to self govern yourself so you can achieve your 93 00:07:28,439 --> 00:07:32,680 own freedom. You know, I'm of the inclination that alcoholism and addiction is 94 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,600 a you know, um neurobiological disease, and I think we're kind of we've 95 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,879 very much discovered that it is. But if you don't have the ability to 96 00:07:41,959 --> 00:07:46,040 govern your impulses and exert control over your will, then you can't even govern 97 00:07:46,079 --> 00:07:49,240 yourself. So how can you govern a community or let alone a nation. 98 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,240 And I think one of the problems, and it is extended, I think 99 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:01,519 to some of the the economic skepticism on the right right now with capitalism or 100 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,000 las fair or whatever term you want to use. That those that have defended 101 00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:09,240 capitalism the most vocally, those in the opinion pages the Wall Street Journal, 102 00:08:09,319 --> 00:08:13,240 those within all these DC think tanks, They have often resorted almost to those 103 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,680 purely materialistic sort of defense of you know, free markets, and so you 104 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,920 know it's like, oh, well, you know, cheap stuff from Walmart, 105 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,480 you know, is the greatest measure of success. And I'm not dismissing 106 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,120 cheap stuff from Walmart if you are poor, like that can really make your 107 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,720 day to day life. But but number go up, you know, stunks 108 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:37,399 going up like that's not a measure of a healthy society. And I think 109 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,960 that what I would the branch of American political thought I really identify with as 110 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:48,320 the old Jacksonians, because the Jacksonians were very wise in terms of economic issues. 111 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,799 There was some some proto Austrian which is kind of the school of economics 112 00:08:50,799 --> 00:08:54,679 of the means Instwo promotes um. There was a lot of proto Austrian thinking 113 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:00,919 within the intellectuals of the Jacksonian movement movement, people like William Leggett Um and 114 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:05,720 some of the Martin van bur and some of the minds behind the throne of 115 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:11,360 the Jacksonian presidency that very much baked in Christian morality, that free markets were 116 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:16,600 necessary to allow for Christian morality to actually be more governing powerful influence in the 117 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,759 American society because of the corruption of cronyism and the financial class and things like 118 00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:26,000 that. And so if liberty is defined and defended purely on these materialistic grounds. 119 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:31,519 Then those that see the meaning crisis that we have in society. Um, 120 00:09:31,639 --> 00:09:35,919 you know, generations of Americans that are so desperate to not become, 121 00:09:35,159 --> 00:09:37,879 to not be who they are, that they're willing to mutilate themselves at a 122 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:43,679 young age, um that engage in self destructive behavior. That's something very wrong. 123 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,720 And if your only view as materialistic and look look at how you know 124 00:09:46,759 --> 00:09:48,759 these I can order something from my phone and have it show my doorstep, 125 00:09:48,799 --> 00:09:52,320 that that burrito shows up in twenty five minutes, that's that's you know, 126 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,919 that's not a free society. That's not a healthy society. And that's your 127 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,559 only argument there. Obviously you're gonna have people of questioning the you know, 128 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,000 the the fulness the utility of it. Right, And I was running up 129 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:05,879 on some of what mesus um what literally on visas was, what is um? 130 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,159 What his theories were, and the notion of deductive economics I thought was 131 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:16,240 particularly fascinating going off. You know, how that the Christian morality behind the 132 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:22,039 Jacksonian m presidency end up being baked into the proto Austrians. It's interesting how 133 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:28,360 there's this unique emphasis on human nature in the economic theory as opposed to just 134 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,200 empiric analysis, which is numbers scope on a spreadsheet, numbers wore down on 135 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,639 a spreadsheet, you always wanted to inch upwards. It's very we've very much 136 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,000 gotten away from that. And granted, I'm not entirely sure. I'm not 137 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,840 an economist, so I can't say for sure which is the objective better, 138 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,639 um, but it seems as though a blending of the two ought to be 139 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,279 preferred, because you can't really at the end of the day, economics is 140 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,039 a it very much deals with human nature at its core. It's we're not 141 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:00,559 fully automated yet, although with AI I'm sure we'll get there at some point, 142 00:11:01,159 --> 00:11:03,440 but you still need to account for the human factor and human nature being 143 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,360 incredibly chaotic. That seems like a very crucial thing in a society that you 144 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,639 can't escape no matter what, right, And I think that's why there's kind 145 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:16,080 of this crisis with an economics of like what really is the value there? 146 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,639 Because you know you have all these you know, very serious Ivy League drained 147 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,639 economists at the central banks, which are not only at the FED, their 148 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,799 international one of America's best exports. That has been really bad thought from Ivy 149 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:31,480 League universities, and there really was this great revolution and think I'm a tragic 150 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,960 revolution and thinking during the twentieth century, you know, kind of pioneered by 151 00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:41,720 John Maynard Keynes and his followers that really kind of amplified this very mathematical approach 152 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:48,240 to economics at the expense of the very class some of the classical economists in 153 00:11:48,279 --> 00:11:54,240 the Austrian school, they made great, i think, advancements from the neo 154 00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,039 classicals, the Adam Smiths of the world. But the methodology is a lot 155 00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:03,000 more similar there. And that is I think, really the methodology of economics 156 00:12:03,039 --> 00:12:07,159 is really what separates us from all all other branches of thought. And so 157 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,879 you know, when people think about capitalism, often they'll think about like Milton 158 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,120 Friedman. But Milton Friedman, though he was a skeptic of government and a 159 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:18,159 free market guy and a prophet of capitalism or whatever you want. Your propagandist 160 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:20,720 of capitalism might be a more accurate term, he was a Keynesian. His 161 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:24,080 methodology was that. In fact, fa Hiak when he came to the University 162 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:30,080 of Chicago after his world renowned tour with Rhad to Serfdom, he was not 163 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,320 allowed to teach economics classes at the University of Chicago. He's focused on political 164 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,000 theory and things like that because Milton Freeman didn't want him in there, and 165 00:12:35,039 --> 00:12:39,399 so the Mesa's approach, it's it's funny because I mean Ludava Mesas when he 166 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:43,600 came to America during World War Two as well as a Jewish refugee from you 167 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:48,000 know, from Austria, he couldn't get a teaching job in the US in 168 00:12:48,039 --> 00:12:54,440 spite of being this world renown economist because of how quick the Keynesian Revolution took 169 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,519 over American universities, you know, FDRs America. You know, he had 170 00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:01,799 he had a teaching gig at NY that was paid for by donors rather than 171 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:07,080 the school. And I think that the economic denialism that I think has kind 172 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,759 of baked in both the left and the right, you know, both sides, 173 00:13:09,759 --> 00:13:13,200 and I think understandably so they kind of view economics increasingly a sort of 174 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,120 a propaganda tool, you know. Either that's a propaganda of of big business, 175 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,279 just the five round existence on the left. On the right it's a 176 00:13:20,279 --> 00:13:22,840 propaganda you know, also of a big business, but maybe government itself. 177 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,639 Um, and it comes from just a complete breakdown of the value economic theory. 178 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:30,720 I mean, you can get a PhD in economics now without any sort 179 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,320 of background in economic history, very little theoretical work. It's all stats driven, 180 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,120 and so it pops up. Like even even over the weekend during the 181 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,600 NFL draft, ESPN had called these models about probability and you know, when 182 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,360 a player was being drafted here, and of course most of it completely didn't 183 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,279 work out because it turns out that mathematical models can't forecast what a team is 184 00:13:48,279 --> 00:13:50,840 going to do. And you know, this one thing is a look kind 185 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,759 of a little sports novelty there, and you kind of see it. You 186 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:54,120 know, during sports season all this team had a ninety nine percent chance of 187 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,480 losing until this one play happened and then they won. It's like, oh, 188 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:00,919 well, you know, maybe it wasn't really maybe number it wasn't useful. 189 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:05,080 That sort of thinking, though, is baked into the financial modeling of 190 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:07,000 central banks, and when you realize just how blind they are, not only 191 00:14:07,039 --> 00:14:11,320 blind, but arrogant they are about the usefulness of these models. That's why 192 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,879 we have the world that we have ourselves in with a bunch of decay and 193 00:14:13,919 --> 00:14:18,600 a bunch of financial instability, because we've lost that appreciation for human nature, 194 00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:22,519 human action, and so that's why I think there's value there. You know, 195 00:14:24,879 --> 00:14:26,559 the problem with economic literacy at such a young age, I think, 196 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:31,159 is why the left is able to take advantage of so much confusion and frustration, 197 00:14:31,559 --> 00:14:37,399 because we've created generational problems, generational trauma from the bad state of the 198 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,120 financial world, which are driven by these very false assumptions that economists on both 199 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:50,399 the nominal left and right have assumed from this methodological methodological failing. The Washdotor 200 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,399 on Wall Street podcast with Chris Murkowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection 201 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,879 between politics and the economy and how it affects your wallet. If someone told 202 00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:01,840 you the recessions started today, would you change anything about your daily life? 203 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:05,679 Has the big recession monster already arrived? Don't be fooled by what you read. 204 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:09,519 Docs tend to outperform during your recession anyways. Make sure you're getting the 205 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,960 most trustful information, whether it's happening in DC or down on the Wall Street 206 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,080 it's affecting you financially. Be informed. Check out the Watchdout on Wall Street 207 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,679 podcast with Chris Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. 208 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:28,200 For sure but you know, going off of that, just speaking about 209 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,159 economic literacy, and you know how we're in a seemingly death spiral right now 210 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,759 with the FED. What are your thoughts on the diminition role of the US 211 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:43,279 dollar abroad? You know, with the bricks system seemingly existing to undermine the 212 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:46,960 US as the economic hegemon, and with more and more international deal is being 213 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,919 conducted in you on, what are your thoughts what does it look like with 214 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,559 the US as the reserve currency moving forward? There's there's real threats out there, 215 00:15:56,679 --> 00:15:58,919 and of course you have a lot of people that that dismiss it, 216 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,759 and that will point to all sorts of from a purely economic analysis, right, 217 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:10,840 the skepticism of something we're placing the dollars sound because the while the dollar 218 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:12,879 and the FED play of problems, and that's a that's a rant upon itself. 219 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:17,759 There's not another central bank out there that sort of doing things the right 220 00:16:17,759 --> 00:16:21,240 way, right, So, you know, America has been overloaded with debt, 221 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:23,440 which again has helped because of the way that the FED is able to 222 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:29,080 to monetize it and empower our physical authorities there. Um, you know, 223 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,639 inflation is a global problem, not simply because of you know, the war 224 00:16:33,679 --> 00:16:37,559 in Ukraine or supply chain issues, but because of monetary excess over ten plus 225 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,759 years, really going back to the response to the financial crisis, so a 226 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:45,879 lot of the problems that the dollar has, the FED has these same problems 227 00:16:45,879 --> 00:16:49,399 that exist with the yuan. They definitely exist with the yen in Japan, 228 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,399 they exist with you know, when I think of physical responsibility, I don't 229 00:16:52,399 --> 00:16:57,279 think of Brazil and Argentina their own currency block there. This is it's political 230 00:16:57,279 --> 00:17:02,039 in nature, sure, And the problem is that money and banking in the 231 00:17:02,159 --> 00:17:06,759 US has become the tip of the spear of American foreign policy. So you 232 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:08,039 know, think back after nine to eleven, Right, the first thing we 233 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:12,279 did is we debanked al Qaeda allies and cut them off from you know, 234 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,000 American financial markets. And given the power of the dollar, it's a very 235 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:18,559 powerful tool. And who could argue with that, right, because these are 236 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:21,440 associates with terrorists, so obviously this is a good idea. And then we 237 00:17:21,519 --> 00:17:23,440 debank North Korea, and then we deep bank Iran, and who could argue 238 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,240 with this because these are obviously bad countries and you know, why would anyone 239 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:30,359 oppose that? And then we debank Russia and you know, well, who 240 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,519 would oppose that, because yea, Russia is invading Ukraine, it's a sovereign 241 00:17:33,559 --> 00:17:37,160 country, and therefore this is a lot better than sending bombs over there. 242 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:41,160 Right, So this is the problem is though, is that American foreign policy 243 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,799 is less about American interests and more about sort of promoting cultural norms. Right. 244 00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:48,039 You know, at the start of every revolution starts with rainbow flags outside 245 00:17:48,039 --> 00:17:52,640 of an embassy somewhere. And so when you have countries that are increasingly waking 246 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,720 up to the real realization that the post World War two order that you could 247 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,599 trust America to respect the rule of law to a certain extent, that you 248 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:06,200 could have them respect your national interests and sovereignty to a certain extent, that 249 00:18:06,279 --> 00:18:11,440 they were going to be faithful allies, you know, to a certain extent. 250 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:15,279 Right, there was the rules based order that we're told we have to 251 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:19,279 defend. And Ukraine and Russia have been eroded because of America's own arrogance, 252 00:18:19,319 --> 00:18:23,680 particularly the last twenty twenty five years. And so now you have nations that 253 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:29,279 say, well, instead of giving up our national sovereignty because we have to 254 00:18:29,279 --> 00:18:32,960 follow what the DC tells us to do these things, then we need to 255 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:34,200 find alternatives because if they can do it to Russia, they can do it 256 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,880 to us. And so this is why you see African countries looking for alternatives. 257 00:18:38,079 --> 00:18:41,559 It's not because they particularly trust the Chinese. It's because they just suddenly 258 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:45,240 don't want they don't want to be under the thumb of bureaucrats you know, 259 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:51,400 you know, and fetish gear in the Biden administration. Right and and so 260 00:18:51,839 --> 00:18:56,440 the problem is is that we have weaponized the dollar, we have weaponized banking. 261 00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:57,960 We've done it abroad, and we're doing it increasingly within. This is 262 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,920 the concerns about central bank digital currency, the de banking of conservative activists, 263 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,319 the way that the banks spied on people that were at the January sixth protest, 264 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,400 no matter what they did. The capital right, the weaponization of the 265 00:19:10,519 --> 00:19:15,880 dollar of banking is forcing people that are aware of this and and concerned you 266 00:19:15,039 --> 00:19:19,440 are not necessarily on the same page as your average buy An administration staff, 267 00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:22,640 or they're naturally going to find alternatives there. Now what that'll turnive ends up 268 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,079 looking like? Again, the yuan has plenty of their own problems. China's 269 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:30,599 debt is crazier than ours. People make a big deal about them buying gold, 270 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,039 but their debt has increased far higher than their gold holdings. Um, 271 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,559 Russia, actually their central bank is like if you're yeah, yeah, their 272 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:41,599 central banker is perhaps the most sane out there. Which that's not a defense 273 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,799 of the Putin regime or by any means, she's not a necessarily big fans. 274 00:19:44,799 --> 00:19:48,519 She tried to resign. Why is it the most sane or stable is 275 00:19:48,519 --> 00:19:53,039 that they're spending has they kept their spending very low and their gold holdings went 276 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,599 up significantly, and they've done other things, you know, you know, 277 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:00,359 so that the response to sanctions was putting you know, the rub at a 278 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,519 peg, and so they've been thinking. Russia has been thinking about currency wars 279 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:07,519 in a very serious way for a very long time. Again, Russia has 280 00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:11,240 plenty of other problems, the country that keeps killing themselves, corruption, all 281 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,319 that sort of stuff, and not a defense of the Russian regime as a 282 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,079 whole, but the Russian Central Bank has been very sane. Right, and 283 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,799 now you're starting to see the president of El Salvador, right, you know, 284 00:20:18,839 --> 00:20:22,200 he's getting heavy a bitcoin. Can you have various African countries looking at 285 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:27,359 bitcoin and gold. You have India, you know, doing more with gold 286 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,599 um, you have other you know, other other interest in the Uan and 287 00:20:32,599 --> 00:20:33,720 other currencies. I mean, this is this is political in nature, but 288 00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:37,839 it's a results. It is a response to the hubris and the arrogance of 289 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,160 DC policymakers, and it's something that this is a whole different dynamic. And 290 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,240 this is this is beyond simply what a pure economic analysis will give you. 291 00:20:45,279 --> 00:20:48,599 This is a political dynamic and it is something that Americans should be very concerned 292 00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:52,319 about because if we can't export our debt elsewhere, the costs of our entitlement 293 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:53,759 programs that so many people rely upon are going to go up. You know, 294 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:59,319 it does serve the global currency status of the dollar, first and foremost 295 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,759 helps the America regime, but there are a lot of Americans that become depend 296 00:21:02,839 --> 00:21:07,039 upon the programs that the government have promised them, and so there's going to 297 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,119 be you know, if we should that ever really get to that point of 298 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,680 crisis, there's going to be real costs at home. And that's why people 299 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:18,200 need to be thinking in the future about how do we best protect first and 300 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,480 foremost our families and our communities within this chaotic environment. And I hope a 301 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:25,200 little bit of economic literacy thinking about things in that way. That's what the 302 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,319 messis into tries to do can help prepare you to make individual decisions because there's 303 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:30,720 no policy maker, no election is going to fix this. This is beyond 304 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,559 politics. This is something that is as a major wave that no single politician 305 00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:40,279 can fix. So I want to get into bitcoin pretty heavily because I know, 306 00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:42,640 you know, you're much more literate in that than I am. But 307 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,039 what you just said about, you know, bringing economic literacy back to two 308 00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:52,319 communities, what does that look like? Do you think it's possible to bring 309 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,720 a actual non because I'm pretty cynical at this point. I think a lot 310 00:21:56,759 --> 00:22:00,160 of this is just controlled destruction. I think a lot of people just want 311 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,640 to keep people in the dark. Um. So do you think it's possible 312 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,240 to bring some form of um realism to economic programs, like in public schools, 313 00:22:10,279 --> 00:22:14,039 back to education? What does that look like? I was very cynical. 314 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,039 I still am to it to a healthy degree. Um, But I 315 00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:21,079 am encouraged by saying the moves that Governor of Santis has made in Florida, 316 00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:26,079 which which I'm from, and seeing a for the first you know, in 317 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,640 a very rare example on the right, being kind of proactive on these things. 318 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,119 And so, you know, ways of adjusting how history is taught. 319 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,599 Now, getting rid of critical race theory is a good first step, it's 320 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,319 not enough. I was going through and reviewing that the textbooks in my county, 321 00:22:40,799 --> 00:22:42,119 and of course you've read into the chapter of the Great Depression, and 322 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,559 still the standard narrative like, oh well Herbert Hoover was this, you know, 323 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,160 las fair, you know, uber uber conservative, and like that's why 324 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,480 we had the Great Depression. And so there's all these sort of baked in 325 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:52,759 narratives that are part of the mainstream that need to be addressed as well. 326 00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:59,400 Notorious nationalists. Yeah, yeah, and and so you know there's still those 327 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,519 economic he's baked within the historical narrative. But just recognizing that school curriculums within 328 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:10,240 red states can be used the same way the left task to promote certain values. 329 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,000 There is no neutrality that there's going to another libertarian polacy. There's no 330 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:18,039 neutrality in any of this. And so I think that Florida has taken some 331 00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:19,119 steps, I think on the economic side to be a little bit better. 332 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,319 Um, the way that you know, the way that it's taught is still 333 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,000 you know, I would love to be able to do trainings for teachers out 334 00:23:27,039 --> 00:23:30,119 there, and I also encourage, like, if you're a young conservative trying 335 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,160 to figure out how to make a difference, I mean, being a teacher. 336 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,480 One of the ways the left wins is because they fill the ranks of 337 00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:41,039 teachers because they take that as an ideological you know, priority in their own 338 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:44,279 right. So it'd be great to have more young conservatives, you know, 339 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,480 in their local high schools teaching this sort of stuff. But it is interesting 340 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,000 seeing how bitcoin and in bitcoin being different than crypto as a whole, because 341 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,839 most of the crypto is a scam. That has been a way that a 342 00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:59,440 lot of people have discovered Austrian economics and the work of the Mesa's Institute because 343 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,319 they've become interested in that. Part of this this this growing lack of faith 344 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:10,119 in institutions, which are not just political institutions but financial institutions. I mean, 345 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:14,279 bitcoin itself came about during the financial crisis in O eight, o nine, 346 00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:18,359 not simply as a response to the FED, but to banks, right 347 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,440 and and so you know, people realizing in the kind of real world now 348 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,759 it helps if you think, you know, money go up and you're right 349 00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:26,079 in the moon and you're gonna make money off of that's that's great. You 350 00:24:26,079 --> 00:24:30,359 know, I'm not saying that you should put in your entire life savings and 351 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,359 the business not financial advice, right and not in financial advice at all, 352 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,519 But but that has led to people sort of rethink about what really is money 353 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:41,000 in society? Why does it need to be controlled by the state. And 354 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,480 I think ultimately this populous tension, whether it's concerns about you know, DC, 355 00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:49,400 whether it's concerns about Davos in the World Economic Forum and the Great Reset, 356 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,480 whether it's concerns within Europe over the ECB. Um. You know, 357 00:24:53,720 --> 00:25:00,599 all of these countries have this tension between institutions and particularly can young people around 358 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,039 the world. I mean, you talk to young people in the UK and 359 00:25:03,079 --> 00:25:04,440 they've got no hope at all because they know they're gonna get screwed. They 360 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,440 know they're going to use their labor to bail out pensioners. Right now, 361 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:14,480 this is the way that's all going to go. Recognizing deep politicized money as 362 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,599 a way of evading you know, I think one of the best tools the 363 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,839 RITE has and you know this, this I think is something we always have 364 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,160 to keep in mind. We talk about tech policy and things like that. 365 00:25:23,279 --> 00:25:26,720 Is the ability to evade the surveillance state, whether it comes into encryption, 366 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,200 whether it comes in a bitcoin, whether it comes in a three D printing, 367 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,599 I think has a role in that as well. Um, Bitcoin I 368 00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:40,160 think has created a tool in a very practical way that those that might not 369 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,039 be interested in reading an eight hundred book page book on economic theory, which 370 00:25:42,039 --> 00:25:47,200 is you know perfectly fine, um, really engaging these issues in a meaningful 371 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,839 way going forward. And I think that that is something that's a very positive 372 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,039 thing. Um. You know, in the crypto industry as a whole has 373 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,880 all sorts of problems, tons of scams, and you know, Washington right 374 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,079 now has made it perfectly clear that Biden administration is doing everything they can and 375 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,559 to attack crypto and bitcoin because they recognize it as a threat to the control. 376 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,680 But people waking up to that I think is a very good thing. 377 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,839 Right. So take a Salvadore for instance, what are the odds that you 378 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,960 know, because it kind of seems like using bitcoin, as you know, 379 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:22,279 the backing of a national currency, it really kind of seems it's only a 380 00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:26,200 matter of time until that suffers the same fate as the US dollar. Granted 381 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,480 it's hard coded, so it's only a limited supply, but it really kind 382 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,519 of only seems a matter of time until it goes the same way as the 383 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:37,920 gold standard, where it just gets you know, diminished and diminished until we're 384 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,359 no longer on it or other things get added to the pot. So I 385 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,400 think the gold standard is a very interesting and useful example here because ultimately the 386 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,160 failure of the gold standard came from that issue of trust within institutions. Right, 387 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,759 because gold as heavy, particularly large quantities, so it becomes very centralized 388 00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:56,839 by nature. Right. You know, you have Fort Knox or you know, 389 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,720 you you have these major central banks and end up being you know, 390 00:26:59,759 --> 00:27:02,799 all to mentally the large holder of gold. Um. You know, banks 391 00:27:02,839 --> 00:27:06,559 will deposit that there for security risks. UM. This is why paper notes 392 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:07,920 became so popular because it's a lot easy to carry around, you know, 393 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,240 one hundred dollar bills than it is to carry the same amount of gold, 394 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,200 particularly back in the day. Um. And so that centralizing aspect of gold 395 00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:21,880 from just a practical logistical standpoint, um is what it helped the state come 396 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,119 in and confiscate gold um devalue bank notes at par you know, from their 397 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:33,079 their original specie um value, all this sort of stuff. Bitcoin is interesting, 398 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,759 and you know there's some people that will absoluely swear by it, and 399 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:38,440 you know, I don't want to get in that count, because anything can 400 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,319 fail, and I think it's always important to have that sensibility with it. 401 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,079 Bitcoin, though, does I think solve some of these issues, only to 402 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,720 the extent that holding a Bitcoin account um, you know, particularly to do 403 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:56,359 it right, you know, you take it off offline. You know, 404 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,400 you have a hard hard wallet, um. You you you are a sponsible 405 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,400 custodian. And again this very much is a sort of self empowerment. There's 406 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,000 responsibility if you really, if you really want to isolate yourself from the political 407 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:15,759 pressures that come with it. Bitcoin has um attributes that gold doesn't have because 408 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:19,640 of that digital nature that solve some of those problems. Now it has other 409 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,279 problems. You know, there's concerns about quantum computing and you know, but 410 00:28:22,319 --> 00:28:25,799 maybe the technology changes and I can't speak to that. That's that's that's a 411 00:28:25,799 --> 00:28:30,400 whole There's there's other people that can. But there's natures within bitcoin that were 412 00:28:30,759 --> 00:28:37,240 intended to solve the historical problem with gold. And I think what's interesting is 413 00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,519 that you'll take a country like China. China became very hostile to bitcoin. 414 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,160 They made these you know, they confiscated all these mining rigs, they bulldozed 415 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,559 them, all sort of stuff. Um, it is interesting just from a 416 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,839 geopolitical perspective, if they really want to challenge the dollars, China actually has 417 00:28:52,839 --> 00:28:56,319 a lot more bitcoin than America does. They don't have more gold than the 418 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,279 dollars than than the US does. So if they were thinking about a non 419 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:03,720 politicize sort of monetary weapon, Bitcoin in many ways had more advantages to China 420 00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:07,359 than other alternatives did. I think their top concern there was people opting out 421 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:10,400 of the Chinese banking system, which they can afford, right, So their 422 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,319 concerned was more domestic control than it was geopolitics. Though Hong Kong is now 423 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,680 open for business with crypto crypto again, so I think that's a that's a 424 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:22,640 very interesting pivot from China in that regard. But even in this very you 425 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,839 know, given all the state capacity that China has for surveillance and punishing citizens 426 00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:30,599 and that whole dynamic, you still had direct transactions going on within bitcoin. 427 00:29:32,359 --> 00:29:34,200 Now you didn't have They shut down the exchanges, which you know, like 428 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,920 the banks, right, those those weakness points that the state has always used, 429 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,000 right, And they use the banking system to control your money. They 430 00:29:41,079 --> 00:29:45,279 use all these intermediaries to control your money in a way that they can't deal 431 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:47,759 with cash. Right, That's still why you know, that's why drug deals 432 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,640 are done with cash. Right, you can you can opt out of the 433 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:56,079 surveillance state and use cash as as a means of processing. They are the 434 00:29:56,119 --> 00:30:00,880 same way you can m or you know, you want to avoid taxes. 435 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,359 Right, There's plenty of of honest ways that you can cash the same things 436 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:07,400 with truth bitcoin. All the state capascity that China had, they couldn't control 437 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,799 um. And so I think that's why, you know, that's that's that's 438 00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:15,599 why I think bitcoin is still something I'm very interested in as a response to 439 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:21,119 this heavy handed nature of you know, the managerial state within the West. 440 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,000 UM. And it's why I think you're gonna see continual escalation. But all 441 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,839 the escalation in the world I don't think is going to instrumentally undermine um the 442 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,920 value that bitcoin has. Now you know, the IMF is throw El El 443 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,160 Salvador over this. The Senate has has done some bills and response saying, 444 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,079 oh, we gotta watch off of this El Salvador guy. You know, 445 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,039 like this, this is dangerous, right. Um. You know Paul Kruman 446 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:45,000 will suggest that the only reason you'd buy bitcoin is to engage in nefarious things 447 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,960 and are therefore we must crack down on it. The same propaganda campaign that's 448 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,960 always used for in anything outside the state control. That's going to be in 449 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,160 full front. That's going to escalate. Um. But I think fundamentally the 450 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:59,519 tools the attributes of bitcoin still have value in this crazy world. Um. 451 00:30:59,559 --> 00:31:03,240 And then hell, something fundamentally changes, which again it could, I'm not 452 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,920 saying it can't, but it tells like fundamentally changes about that that I am 453 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,480 confident about the you know, the firm math behind bitcoin and it's firm limit 454 00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:14,880 of twenty one million you know bitcoins and things like that. I think all 455 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:21,119 of these are trustless dynamics, which ultimately is the main core of the hardcore 456 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,960 you know bitcoin crowd. Very fascinating. No, I'm prone to agree. 457 00:31:26,039 --> 00:31:29,640 I'm not, as I said, nearly as literate on bitcoin as you or 458 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,720 other economists will be. Um, I think, you know, blockchain technology 459 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,759 is something that we're going to see integrated a lot more in our daily lives, 460 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:38,920 and I even heard people talk about using it in things like voting, 461 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,960 which I really hope it doesn't happen. I'm still very much partial to you 462 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,680 know, paper ballots, but that's just because I'm a boomer. But let's 463 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,960 circle back a little bit and talk about China's debt. You mentioned, you 464 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,680 know, they're far more overextended than the US's and how it's money's been being 465 00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:00,200 used as a political tool. Essentially, it seems very much so that we 466 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,799 could just take them out in a matter of months. So if we got 467 00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:07,759 serious, buckled down and you know, issued the right amount of sanctions, 468 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,200 coordinated with our allies and everyone got on the same page. This is a 469 00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,839 threat to you know, the global order that everyone would be worse off because 470 00:32:15,839 --> 00:32:20,279 of why do you think that's not happening? And do you think it ought 471 00:32:20,319 --> 00:32:22,279 to happen? Well, I think one of the reasons it's not it is 472 00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:27,200 because we have so much of our manufacturing that's been outsourced out there. Um, 473 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,279 you know the greed of Wall Street has, you know the things people 474 00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:36,039 make a big deal about, Um, oh well you know they're they're going 475 00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:38,640 to China because of labor costs and things like that, and it's just not 476 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:43,079 true. The reason why you have so many big businesses that have relocated to 477 00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,480 China because if you want to if you want cheap labor, right you when 478 00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:46,759 you go to China right now because of the way that their wages have increased, 479 00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:50,880 you go to Bangladesh or you go to Vietnam, and you know that 480 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,960 those those sort of areas, right, They're not going there because of cheap 481 00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:58,039 labor costs. They're going there because they want access to the Chinese invest in 482 00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:01,519 market place. You know, they want you know, if you can sell 483 00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:05,559 one square fabric to every you know, citizen in China, then you're gonna 484 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:08,200 be a very wealthy man. Right. So it's a greed of Wall Street. 485 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,680 And you know, I think in recent years you've seen a greater recognition 486 00:33:13,759 --> 00:33:16,079 of some of the different you know, the cultural concerns you know, China 487 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:20,640 as you know, I think it's a genuine rogue actor in a way that 488 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,319 um, you know, of of of a certain size that we haven't really 489 00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:27,720 seen, you know, from a geopolitical standpoint, you know, since the 490 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,880 Soviet Union, um, which makes it very different than say, you know, 491 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,039 Iraq, right, you know, you're not gonna be concerned about Iraq 492 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,359 really, you know, changing the global stage unless you're you know, two 493 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,400 thousands zeron neocon Um. And and what's interesting, those American form policy was 494 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,759 subsidizing this, you know, right, So like you had Starbanes Oxley, 495 00:33:44,799 --> 00:33:47,400 and you had the Dodd Frank Act, and you had all these American regulations 496 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:53,559 that put very strict reporting requirements and requirements on companies, and yeah, didn't 497 00:33:53,559 --> 00:33:59,440 apply to you know, Chinese companies. And so there's there's these explicit sort 498 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,279 of and you know, so that the Obama administration had a memo of understanding 499 00:34:02,279 --> 00:34:06,599 with the Chinese financial industry saying, oh, well, all the auditing requirements 500 00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,519 that we require from our companies, don't worry, China is going to enforce 501 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:14,239 those over there. In surprise, surprise, you know, they're they were 502 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:17,239 ripping off American investors blind. And so there was a lot of I think 503 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:23,360 naivete with China because the underlying assumption right within Washington, within New York, 504 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,000 within the West as a whole, was the more liberalized the Chinese economy became, 505 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,440 the more western it would become within its values. And I think you 506 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,159 could argue that to a certain extent that was true up to a point. 507 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:39,079 The difference is that she is not interested in liberalization, right. He is, 508 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:44,559 you know, he is very much a product of of of Mao. 509 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:47,760 His cultural views are very different, and so you've seen a much more strict, 510 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:55,199 you know, a much more heavy handed approach by the CCP to various 511 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,480 you know, Jack Maub disappeared for a while because you know, he was 512 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,760 speaking out against some of the concerns over there. There's a secondary dynamic though 513 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,760 as well, Like when you do business with China, you're doing business for 514 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,840 the most part with the CCP um. You know, the largest businesses there 515 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,920 are state backed enterprises, and so you know, there there is that aspect, 516 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,000 you know where you know, we have American companies, you know subsidizing 517 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:19,760 you know, the parts of China with you know, weaker prison camps, 518 00:35:20,079 --> 00:35:22,719 right and you know, we're all fine with it because it makes the stock 519 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,280 numbers go up. But like that's that's something that we should probably have a 520 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,679 conversation about. Like like Disney explicitly thank them in the in the credits for 521 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,519 or not consciation camps, but the regional government in the laund remake. So 522 00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:36,719 and it was the pleasurity. Yeah, and the things those now now now, 523 00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:40,559 these same aspects lead to problems within China. Right, So if you 524 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:45,400 think about the degree to which state backed enterprises makeup the size of Chinese economy, 525 00:35:46,119 --> 00:35:50,559 Um, if your state back enterprise, your top priority isn't profit and 526 00:35:50,639 --> 00:35:54,079 loss, it's keeping on good terms with the regime. Right. And so 527 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:59,800 you know in in uh a couple of years ago, um, it was 528 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,480 like the majority of the Chinese loan market was going to stake back enterprises, 529 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,239 which again quality of loans there, you know, politicized by nature. If 530 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,039 if you're the same amount you think about Fantam and Freddie Mac which is a 531 00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:15,440 politicized form of capital allocation within the housing market. You know that crash was 532 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,000 a big part of you know, our problems in oh eight. If you 533 00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:22,079 have that same sort of crash happened in China, like if you actually had 534 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,239 to mark the value of you know, all this copper that they've extracted from 535 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,599 ground and keeping warehouses just because the jobs there were good, or you know, 536 00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:32,079 all these different politicized agenda items and the profit and loss of all these 537 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:37,760 businesses are very problematic and in fact going at late twenty nineteen, the Chinese 538 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,880 banking system was melting down because of this, and then COVID happened, and 539 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,199 then that created all social distractions, which is yeah, kind of interesting. 540 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:46,719 Um. And so so all of these go to like some of the economic 541 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,599 underpinnings there. The question of what America should do about it is that, 542 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:53,639 you know, first and foremost is that you know, we need to get 543 00:36:53,679 --> 00:36:57,800 our own house in order. Right. You know, again, why are 544 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,440 people why are foreign foreign powers are our historic allies wanting to do business with 545 00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:07,199 China? Well, it's because of American politics. Um. You know why 546 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,239 is American manufacturing been eroded? Well, a big part of that is because 547 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,320 Monterrey policy, right, we have we have undermine we we have, we 548 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:22,880 have government policies have disenfranchised American business to the to the benefit of the international 549 00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:27,880 markets. And so you know, if we if we were able to restore 550 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,760 some level of sanity internally, um, that would be the biggest threat to 551 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,760 China. But instead, you know, we still have all sorts of requirements 552 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:38,840 that lead to you know, our saline bags, you know, for our 553 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,079 ivs you know, being largely manufactured in China. Right, we have all 554 00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,519 these problems that are policy decisions. They aren't. They are the result of 555 00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:50,280 markets, you know, free markets working, there's a result of policy decisions. 556 00:37:50,599 --> 00:37:52,960 And so until we get our economic house in order, we're going to 557 00:37:52,039 --> 00:37:55,679 continue to be feeding um the the the interest of China. I mean, 558 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,360 I had a conversation a couple weeks ago with something from Japan who was obviously 559 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:05,760 very concerned about Chinese aggression. They are a big defender, champions of defending 560 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,679 Ukraine because of the domino effect there. And so the argument I made is 561 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:14,119 that no one, no country is better off now than they were, you 562 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,880 know, at the start of the Russian Ukraine War. Then China, because 563 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,199 American policymakers are doing everything we can to make them look more attractive. And 564 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:23,639 so again if America got if we had sanity in the US, that would 565 00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:29,199 be the biggest threat to China. But unfortunately, sanity requires a massive ideological 566 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:34,119 shift amongst the elite, amongst policymakers, a buck severer parduct class of bucks, 567 00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,800 the politicians, amongst academia. And so that getting that ideological shift so 568 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:43,800 that policy can reflect sanity, that's our biggest battle. And that's why going 569 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,400 after higher ed and again, the ideas being perpetrated out there. I think 570 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,400 it is one of the biggest political issues out there because without an ideological change, 571 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,639 we're not going to solve our montery issues, We're not going to solve 572 00:38:52,679 --> 00:38:57,039 our regulatory state, We're not going to solve these these underlying problems. I 573 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:00,559 hope you enjoyed that episode of Federalist Radio Hour with though Bishop and as always 574 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:07,039 belovers of freedom and anxious for the fray