WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:15.439 Good evening and welcome to the Hollywood Babylonians. Hello, Hello, Hello friends. 2 00:00:15.480 --> 00:00:20.719 This is your Happy Hollywood History host mister Ben Burke here with another episode 3 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:26.000 of the Hollywood Babylonians, your Favorite Classic Film in Hollywood History podcast, in 4 00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:30.879 which we talk about the greatest classic films of old Hollywood and the history behind 5 00:00:30.920 --> 00:00:35.280 them. And today we are privileged, we are lucky, we are blessed 6 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:40.799 to have an amazing person with us today, the host of the front Row 7 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:46.439 Classics podcast, which is a national public radio podcast, mister Brandon Davis. 8 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:50.280 Brandon, how are you. I am doing great, Ben, Thank you 9 00:00:50.359 --> 00:00:53.439 so much for having me. This is a thrill. Oh of course it's 10 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:56.840 a thrill for me too. When you first messaged me several months ago and 11 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.679 we're like I love your content, I was just like, ah, this 12 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.719 is a because you Brandon has he not only discusses classic films, but he 13 00:01:03.760 --> 00:01:08.519 has some of the best guests on. In my opinion, Ben Makaway, 14 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:14.040 it's Patricia Kelly Ward, who's Gene Kelly's widow. All of those Brandon, 15 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:19.000 I am amazed at how you get those people? Do you just like find 16 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:23.359 how do you now? Well, it's it's pretty remarkable. We one of 17 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:30.120 my best friends started our podcast network. It's called the front Row Network, 18 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.840 and originally it was just him and a couple of his friends talking about the 19 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:38.719 newest releases, and then he wanted to expand it, and so then I 20 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:42.920 was always the classic film fan, and so he asked me to start my 21 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.959 own show, front Row Classics. So I I did it for a couple 22 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.359 of years and then you know, just went fine. We just discussed movies 23 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:56.040 and did movie reviews. And then during the pandemic, one of my other 24 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:01.840 friends who hosts our Disney podcast, just started reaching out to various you know, 25 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:07.039 Disney legends and things like that. And really the pandemic, for as 26 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.719 much as we wish it didn't happen, it really did sort of help us 27 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:15.120 out because people who usually sat at home, who usually were busy, I 28 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:16.719 mean, we're kind of just saying at home doing nothing, so they had 29 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:20.960 time to give us. So that kind of that kind of just started the 30 00:02:21.000 --> 00:02:24.319 ball rolling. And when one person said yes, just more happened. And 31 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:29.719 so yeah, I just started getting more and more contacts, and you know, 32 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:31.680 the ability to contact publicists and things like that, and that's how it 33 00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:38.120 got started. That is amazing. Yeah, and I this podcast definitely came 34 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:40.479 out of the pandemic. I you know, just sitting at home with my 35 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:45.199 parents and having nothing to do and coming up with as a podcast. And 36 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:46.840 I'm quite the perfectionist, so you know, for every movie, it's like 37 00:02:46.840 --> 00:02:50.879 I have to read every book and watch every documentary and create a twenty page 38 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:53.319 report before I can do any podcast. So sometimes it moves a bit slower 39 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:57.199 than I'd like it too, and at times is like, is that all 40 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.639 of this really worth it? But I think at the end it is because 41 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.080 you to see growth and you start to see interest in different people wan to 42 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:06.240 be a part of it, which is awesome, like the amazing Brandon Davis 43 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.919 from Illinois. But I am, and that's awesome that you have. You 44 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:15.520 have like an entire network of podcast friends. So he's you just chopped on 45 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:17.039 that train and you wrote it. You're still writing it. Yeah, we 46 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.360 do. We've got, like I mentioned, we have a Disney show. 47 00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:23.400 We have a group that does a show called Flashbacks, which is more sort 48 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:29.240 of eighties nineties fair and then we have we have a host named lou Hair. 49 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.280 He does a show called Guilty Pleasures, which really deals with sort of 50 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:35.400 the seedier side of movie going, but it's a lot of fun and so 51 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.800 yeah, we cover all the bases. Awesome. That is so cool. 52 00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:43.120 Okay, So starting out, I want to ask you, just just so 53 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.159 we can feel out Brandon Davis and get to know who he is. I 54 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:50.560 want to know your history with classic film, your kind of introduction. How 55 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.280 was it indoctrinated into you since childhood? What happened? Well, I think, 56 00:03:53.599 --> 00:04:00.159 like most everybody from you know, birth, you know you who, 57 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.319 I think everyone's first sort of introduction to classic films would be sort of through 58 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:08.159 Disney, through the older Disney classics and then of course the Wizard of Oz 59 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:11.240 and things like that. So that was always my basis. But then I 60 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.520 want to say, around the time I was probably like eight or nine, 61 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:20.079 I spent a lot of time with my grandma and she loved movies growing up, 62 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:25.519 and so anytime I would go visit her or whatever, she would always 63 00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:28.839 have a new VHS of some you know, it started out kind of with 64 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.879 classic musicals. So it started out with things like it started out with the 65 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:35.800 Rogers and Hammerstein stuff, so Sound of Music, Oklahoma King and I and 66 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:40.800 then really with me, I don't know exactly what it was, but it 67 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:45.040 grabbed me and all of a sudden, I would latch on to like a 68 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:46.160 star in a certain movie and be like, Oh, I want to see 69 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:48.879 what else they did, or I want to see, you know, other 70 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:53.680 things like this. So it was really kind of more self discovery on my 71 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:57.879 part, with her sort of being my introduction into everything that is awesome. 72 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:00.560 And yeah, it was. It was similar for me. I spent a 73 00:05:00.600 --> 00:05:03.399 lot of time growing up with my grandparents and it was either TV Land or 74 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:08.920 TCM on all of the time. And then we started going to the public 75 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:13.480 library and Hastings and I would I started towarding VHS's. I still have a 76 00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:16.639 lot of those. I will not get rid of them because of sentimental reasons. 77 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.439 But yeah, and it started out with classic musicals for me, and 78 00:05:20.519 --> 00:05:23.480 it grew and it grew in, it grew in. As you get older, 79 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.199 you get interested in more of the mature work, which is kind of 80 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.199 what happened to me with this film that we are about to talk about. 81 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:33.360 Also, we are here to discuss a very very important film today. I 82 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:38.120 think it's our tenth film with the Hollywood Babylonians. By the time this episode 83 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:42.680 comes out, it'll be our tenth film, and it is Casablanca from Warner 84 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.720 Brothers in nineteen forty two, is starring Ingrid Bergman, Humphrey Bogart, directed 85 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:53.759 by Michael Kurtiz, with Peter Lori, Scizakal, Sydney green Street, Paul 86 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.160 Henrid, you know, you name it, they got it. So I 87 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:01.120 wanted to know first and foremost because and we were talking about classic film messaging. 88 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.439 You Brandon, you said Classablanca is your favorite. I want to know 89 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:10.279 out of why all of these millions, not millions, but thousands of other 90 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:14.759 classic films, why this is your favorite. It sounds like a cliche for 91 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:18.480 a classic film fan to say that Casablanca is their favorite, but honestly, 92 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:25.319 honest truth, it is because I don't. I can't think of another movie. 93 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.160 It's funny if you ask me, like what my favorite performance in a 94 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:33.120 movie is, or what my favorite screenplay of a movie is, I might 95 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:38.480 say All About Eve is my favorite screenplay, or Jimmy Stewart's performance of Vertigo 96 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:44.319 is my favorite performance. But when you add every single piece and every single 97 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:48.720 element that it took to make Casablanca, it is like this perfect souffle and 98 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:56.399 everything just compliments each other. And somehow, somehow, all of these different 99 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:00.240 elements came together. And I don't necessarily buy the theory that it was such 100 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:04.279 an accident that everything happened. I think these were craftsmen who knew what they 101 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:09.120 were doing. But they I mean, they certainly didn't know they had, 102 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.839 you know, you know, a masterpiece for the Ages on their hands. 103 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:17.319 But everything about it works. And I said this when we talked about this 104 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.600 on my show. It's for me, it's like a favorite like music album. 105 00:07:21.639 --> 00:07:26.120 It's like when you put on like the Beatles White Album or Carol King's 106 00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:28.759 Tapestry or something. The more I watch it and the more I listen to 107 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:30.000 it, the more I love it, and the more I'm familiar with it, 108 00:07:30.519 --> 00:07:36.560 and it doesn't get old, and you know, the performances still work, 109 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.199 and everything about it is just it is just great. I mean, 110 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:46.519 even the even it's such a high stakes, dramatic setting and the look of 111 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.360 it and everything it's it just all works. It does. It works perfectly. 112 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:55.199 It's almost like, well, I don't want to call it an anomaly, 113 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:59.519 but it almost feels like that's what it is. Because every every element 114 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.040 that was that was working in the Warner Brothers studio is a part of this 115 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.439 film. I mean, you have the Golden Boys, Michael Curtiz and producer 116 00:08:07.480 --> 00:08:11.680 Hal Wallace working together. You have Arthur Edison, who was a Warner Brothers 117 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:16.879 cinematographer for years and years and years. Yes, Humphrey Bogart, you know. 118 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.279 And it is at When I first saw it in fifth grade, I 119 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.959 was like, Oh, this is, you know, kind of Warner Brothers 120 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:28.759 Warner Brothers stock melodrama. As I got older, I realized that somehow all 121 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:33.679 of these different elements came together in a perfect Warner Brothers melodrama. And I 122 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.399 think it has something to do with not only the fact that it was a 123 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.480 melodrama, but the fact that you're layering on all of these real life things 124 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:46.759 that were happening at the time. And it's not just a love story between 125 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.639 Bogart and Bergmant. It is an ensemble film, and without the ensemble you 126 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.559 don't have the full effect of the film. When was the first time you 127 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.919 saw Casablanca? It was I want to say I was in junior high probably 128 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.600 it was around like six seventh eighth grade, somewhere around there. But I 129 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:07.919 got I got a DVD of it for Christmas, and I put it in 130 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.080 and watched it, and I know, I mean, certainly I had seen 131 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.559 pieces of it before then, but this is the first time I actually and 132 00:09:15.559 --> 00:09:18.840 and that age is sort of around the time when you can really appreciate, 133 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.919 you know. I was sort of a veteran classic film fan by that time, 134 00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:26.039 but mainly like in the musical category or comedies or things like that, 135 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:31.759 And so now I was maturing the other fair. And so I had seen 136 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.240 Bogart before because I knew The African Queen by then, and I knew I 137 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:39.639 knew a couple of other of his work, but actually sit down and watch 138 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:45.120 it, and I think somehow I had been immune to you know, when 139 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:48.720 when you show somebody something like Casablanca or Citizen Kane or something like that, 140 00:09:48.759 --> 00:09:52.440 and there was so much hype around that movie, you almost feel like you're 141 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.240 in for a disappointment because people build up so many expectations in their mind. 142 00:09:56.399 --> 00:10:01.279 I didn't have too many expectations when I watched it, so I really watched 143 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:07.720 it fresh, and it captured me right away, and I just I fell 144 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:11.679 in love with the setting. I fell in love with the characters, and 145 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:15.639 it has always held on to my imagination in my heart ever since. Then, 146 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.960 right, well that is awesome. Yeah, And it's like you said 147 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:20.960 very first thing, you know, say that you're a classic film lover and 148 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:26.679 you love Casablanca. Is seems so cliche because we're classic film lovers, so 149 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:31.679 we like to say that we love things that are more obscure than that. 150 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.759 And everybody is, you know, everybody talks about Casablanca like, you know, 151 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:39.320 it's the best thing ever, and it really is. I don't think 152 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:41.960 it's a cliche to say that, I mean talking about you. You also 153 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.519 said that Round Up the Usual Suspects was which I just finished reading, which 154 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.039 was a trip. Is your favorite Casablanca book? Have you read any others 155 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:56.559 I read? We'll always have Casablanca, which came out a couple of years 156 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:58.200 ago and is a really good book too. I recommend that that came out 157 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.559 I want to say, like four or five years ago. And then I've 158 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.840 read several of the Warner Brothers books, and I've read books on Boguard. 159 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.600 But Eric Lax, who's a great biographer of Bogart, I recommend any of 160 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.600 his stuff. But I think Round up the usual suspects as the most complete 161 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:20.440 and I think gives you the best sort of all around detail of you just 162 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:24.320 the production and the politics of Warner Brothers and the politics in the US at 163 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.919 the time. It just covers everything, right. And I messaged you, 164 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.840 I said, Warner Brothers did not sound like a place I want to work 165 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.679 in the thirties and forties. I mean, you hear stories from the studio 166 00:11:35.759 --> 00:11:41.399 system and just the stories that you've heard before Olivia de Hablin came in with 167 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.840 her law and the Paramount deal in nineteen forty eight. You're like, whoo, 168 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:50.759 that sounded like just a toxic work environment, but even more so Warner 169 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:56.679 Brothers because it was it was a very structured work environment. It sounded like, 170 00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:00.399 you know, the biggest stars were having to fight their way to their 171 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:07.360 favorite projects, except Daryl Flynn, who I don't really think cared, which 172 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.799 is fine. Yeah, we still love him. I watched I love watching 173 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:16.960 old Dick Cavot shows and I of course one of the uh one of his 174 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:20.120 best interviewees was Betty Davis, and she was talking about how, you know, 175 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.279 Jack Warner, you know, lost all of his hair early because he 176 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:26.240 had to deal with me, Bogart and Cagney because he said, she said, 177 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:30.960 I think between the three of us, we all had dozens of suspensions. 178 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.679 Yes, which is perfectly fine. I think it's well worth those suspensions 179 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:37.679 were well worth it for the films that we did get. Oh yeah, 180 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:43.720 yeah, yeah, definitely and definitely the fact yeah, also hol Wallace, 181 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.919 the fact so many of those great films that we love he produced, and 182 00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.879 he was producing back to back to back. A lot of Cosablanca was, 183 00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.240 you know, put on hold, the schedule was or people came in late 184 00:12:54.279 --> 00:12:58.399 because they were all working on Now Voyager, which is another great Warner Brothers 185 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:03.720 film. I don't know if it holds up as well as Constant. Constant 186 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.799 Blanca almost feels timeless, like there is something about it that still feels modern, 187 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:13.039 whereas Now Voyager it has a great emotional arc of you know, finding 188 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:18.120 yourself in the world. But maybe it's just Betty Davis's acting, which I'm 189 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:22.279 a fan of. But you need you need some context for Now Voyager, 190 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:28.320 because I think Betty Davis's performance is fine. I think it's it's its view 191 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.200 of psychiatry is a little more primitive than what we're used to nowadays, So 192 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:35.360 you really have to sort of put yourself in a nineteen forty two mindset when 193 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:39.240 you watch that movie. Yes, for sure, for sure. Yeah, 194 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.480 I think her performance that yeah, being Betty Davis, Oh my goodness, 195 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.200 love her film so much. But I wanted to also talk about round Up 196 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:50.279 the Usual Suspects. One of the things that I think this book does so 197 00:13:50.639 --> 00:13:56.600 well to put the film into historical context and kind of understanding because it can 198 00:13:56.639 --> 00:14:01.919 also relate to today, is that it you know, every almost every person 199 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:07.639 on this film was some sort of a European refugee who had fled from Europe 200 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.799 because of Hitler, and that's exactly what the entire film was about. And 201 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.720 I listened to your set. You did two podcasts on Casablanca, I think 202 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:20.240 on Frentroal Classics, and I listened to the second one today and one interesting 203 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.080 thing that one of your co hosts, I'm sorry, I don't know their 204 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.799 names that I but loved listening to both of them. But one of them 205 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.120 said, you know, you know, people always call Hollywood, you know, 206 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.240 liberal Hollywood these days, and they're like, oh, what happened to 207 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.559 the good old days? Like that, you know, the forties and fifties, 208 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:39.240 and it's like, no, no, it was still liberal Hollywood because 209 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:45.360 the Warners had both been Jewish were you know, they were against Hitler what 210 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.960 he stood for. And there were many members of the Republican Party at the 211 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:54.200 time that had allied themselves with a Nazi regime and a certain Nazi agent who 212 00:14:54.279 --> 00:15:00.159 was using Congress to send out Nazi propaganda to the American people. So this 213 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:05.559 film that vilified Nazis actually was considered leftist because a lot of the people on 214 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:11.679 the right ally themselves with the Nazis. Anyway, I was wondering what some 215 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:13.879 of your favorite Well, first of all, do you have a favorite character 216 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:18.799 in this movie? Oh? That's hard. I mean, okay, Rick 217 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:22.720 aside, I think you know, I think you know. Rick is who 218 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:26.360 you identify with, It's who you pull for the whole movie. I love 219 00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:31.519 I love claud Raines as Louis Renault. That it's he's He's somebody who if 220 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.440 you knew in real life, you would find despicable, but on the screen 221 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:41.440 you cannot get enough he and I think we mentioned it in our podcast. 222 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:45.919 You were as much invested in the Rick and Louis relationship as you are in 223 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.799 the Rick and Elsa relationship. Oh yeah, because throughout the movie there is 224 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:56.120 such an unspoken subtext between the two of them because they can't say what they 225 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.240 really feel right throughout the whole movie, even even in the privacy to each 226 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.039 other, they don't dare say it. And so finally at the end, 227 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.399 when they finally can show their real allegiance to each other, and when they 228 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.639 walk off together at the end, you feel, you feel vindicated. And 229 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:14.600 I think that's why the movie works, because you know, Rick loses Elsa 230 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.240 and the love story we've been rooting for ends tragically, and yet this other 231 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:22.600 relationship we're invested in is going on, and so I think that that that 232 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.759 gives it such a cathartic feel at the end. And so yeah, I 233 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:30.039 think I that's one of the all time great movie characters. Louis Renault. 234 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:34.559 Yeah, well Renault also, yeah, and beautifully played by Claude Rains. 235 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.039 He's every time people ask me who's my favorite old Hollywood actor, I always 236 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.840 say Claude Raids and they're like, really, because he wasn't He wasn't a 237 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:44.960 you know, he wasn't like Gregory Peck or Carry Grant, Ye, right, 238 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.360 But I think but look at every look at the span of work he 239 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.440 did, I know every kind of character, and I think this pret well 240 00:16:52.600 --> 00:16:56.960 notorious is very haunting. But I think this performance, and even though it's 241 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:02.639 not considered a great film, his his performance and deception very good. Oh 242 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.079 yeah, it's phenomenal a party, indeed, yes it is. And mister 243 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:10.039 Skeffington he's really good. Oh yes, well, yeah, he's really good 244 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.880 in everything. And I feel like, I don't know, he says some 245 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.240 stuff about Rick, like, you know, if I were a woman, 246 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:18.880 he'd be the first man I would want to go to. And they say 247 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.839 stuff back back and forth like that, so you're you know that there's undertones 248 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.480 of that. And then the overtone of him and Elsa and Ingrid Bergmann, 249 00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:30.799 which is just perfect chemistry, even though they I don't think they like fought 250 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:36.200 it out, but they never did really get They were ever fast friends, 251 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:41.079 is my understanding. Right, well, and what's what's Ingrid Bergman's line that 252 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:45.279 she used to say, I kissed Bogart but I never knew him, yeah, 253 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.240 or something like that. So I don't think I think they were just 254 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.920 I think they were both very different people who were incredibly professional and did their 255 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:56.200 jobs very well. And you know, Bogart was going through a tough time 256 00:17:56.279 --> 00:18:00.880 at the time. He was good. He was in a rocky marriage which 257 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.440 would eventually end, and you know, a couple of years later he would, 258 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.400 you know, meet Lauren McCall and that would become history. But I 259 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:10.599 you know, and then and then, you know, this is a movie 260 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:14.799 that no one, but no one really I think, put much stock in. 261 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:17.720 So I think everyone was just ready to move on to the next thing. 262 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:22.119 It's pretty well documented that Ingrid Bergmann really wanted to do for Whom The 263 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.480 Belt Holes, which was the next movie that she did, And so I 264 00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:29.920 just think everyone came, did their job and went home. And you know, 265 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.480 I'm sure Bogart and Rains and green Street and Lorie they were all good 266 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:36.319 friends, so they all kind of but but Bergmann, I'm sure just kind 267 00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.119 of felt, you know, this is a job and I'm ready just to 268 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:42.680 get it done and move on, right. I've read some of her autobiography. 269 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.599 I know at the time she really wanted for Whom The Bell Belt Holes, 270 00:18:47.119 --> 00:18:49.519 and their last filming week in August she got the call from I think 271 00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:52.640 it was paramount that she had gotten the job after they had given it to 272 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.720 somebody else that I can't remember her name, but I know she was European 273 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.559 and nobody could understand her. So they got they got rid of her. 274 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.920 Ingrid Bergmann took that role. But beginning before Casablanca, she had made films 275 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:10.240 for David O. Selsney. I think she made that one intermetso yeah, 276 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.839 and then she made she made you know, Doctor Jekyl and Mister Hide with 277 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.079 Metro, And I know she didn't all of a sudden, there was kind 278 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:21.039 of a stall out on her career and she did not get along with her 279 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.759 husband that well, and she felt like she was trapped up in New York. 280 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:27.279 So she wrote, I think it was a friend or like an acting 281 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:32.359 coach, that she just belongs for the day when she can go back to 282 00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:36.839 work. And I don't ever think Casa Blanca was her you know what, 283 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.680 was her ever favorite project. But I think she was thankful to be back 284 00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:42.680 on set. I know, and you talked about on your podcast too, 285 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:48.160 the fact that she people always told her how much they loved her in Casablanca, 286 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.960 which her daughter said made her angry because she never because they kept rewriting 287 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.599 the script over and over and over again. She never knew who she was 288 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:59.240 going to be in love with. But I think the name of the game 289 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.680 in Casablanca is ambiguity, which makes it still feel like a modern film. 290 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.000 You because she never knew exactly who she was in love with, who she 291 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:11.759 was supposed to be in love with. Neither do we, And that's what 292 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.559 makes the ending feel okay, is that she goes, she goes. We 293 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.680 don't know, she doesn't even know who she's in love with. But I 294 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.440 know that the production code because at the end she leaves Rick and she goes 295 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.880 away with Paul Henrid. The production code wouldn't have allowed her in that day 296 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.000 and time to run away with Rick. Yeah, definitely, And I think, 297 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.039 like you said, I think the ambiguity it makes everything feel like it's 298 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.480 all in real time and we're we're we're figuring it out as she's figuring it 299 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.119 out. So so that's that's part of why the movie stays fresh. And 300 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.279 then yeah, you're right, I think, you know, we hear all 301 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:51.680 the time about how the Epstein's and Howard Koch, who were doing the screenplay, 302 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.119 couldn't figure out who she was going to end up with, and that 303 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.839 may meant that may very well be true. But in the in the end, 304 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.680 you know, the production code is, you know, husbands have to 305 00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:04.119 stay with their wives and if they don't, they get punished somehow. So 306 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:07.759 so she went off with Bogart. They probably would both have to die in 307 00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:11.559 a plane crash exactly to punish them for their actions. It's just ridiculous. 308 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.279 But I yeah, oh oh, we were talking. Okay, First, 309 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:22.079 I want to address like ambiguity this film. Everybody is, they're their own 310 00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:26.079 flawed character. Nobody is white, nobody is black, which is very different 311 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:32.119 from other films. Everybody is practically grey. And Rick, I mean Rick 312 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:34.319 is of course, I don't want to say one of the first, but 313 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:37.839 you know, one of the first anti heroes on film. I don't think 314 00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:41.200 we truly get film noir until the following year with the Woman in the Window. 315 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.559 You never That's what makes it feel so modernist because so many modern movies 316 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:49.359 there's no good guys, there's no bad guys. Everybody has their own flaws, 317 00:21:49.720 --> 00:21:55.319 and that is definitely true for everybody living in Casablanca, which brings us 318 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.759 to our next point. As time goes by. Well, okay, first, 319 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.200 I'm sorry all over the Place, Oh, go ahead. But the 320 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:04.759 the movie was based on the play Everybody Comes to Rick, which was an 321 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:10.960 unpublished play by I Think a man named his last name was Murray Murray Burnette, 322 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:15.599 Murray Burnette. Yes, and then is it Joan Joan Joan Allison, 323 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.559 Joan Allison. Yeah, not June Allison, but Joan Allison. Another another 324 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:22.720 interesting I know that would have been interesting. That would have been a lot, 325 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:27.759 a lot happier plays. But yeah, it was based on Everybody Comes 326 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.640 to Rack. The song as Time Goes By was an old song that had 327 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:37.039 been written in the early thirties from a play that was on Broadway called Everybody's 328 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:41.640 Welcome and As Time Goes By was one of the highlights for that Broadway play. 329 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.839 It It did very well for the play, and I know Anne Southern 330 00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.960 was one of the stars. And that's before she took on the Metro Goldwyn 331 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.160 Mayor role of Ann Southern. I can't even remember what her name was before 332 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.880 Ann Southern. I know, you're you got the look on. I'm trying 333 00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.920 to think of it too. I couldn't remember, well, I'm well, 334 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.920 And I'm also trying to think was a Southern with r ko or MGM. 335 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:07.440 First, I can't remember, you're like, I think she went I think 336 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:14.519 she went to MGM. Yeah, and then she went, yeah, Okay. 337 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.440 Her real name was Harriet Lake. That's what it was. There, 338 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.400 we go Harriet, That's what it was. But the fact that all of 339 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:27.039 these characters seem real. Everybody's welcomed. It was speculated in the you know, 340 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:33.000 round Up the Usual Suspects, the book that Everybody Comes to Ricks was 341 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.920 kind of a takeoff on Everybody's Welcome because they used a song from Everybody's Welcome 342 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:41.480 and everybody being like all of these different refugees, all of these different types 343 00:23:41.480 --> 00:23:45.279 of people. There's a very moving moment in the film when they're singing, 344 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:49.400 you know, the Nazis are singing their song and then the French are singing 345 00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:55.400 the Marseilles that it's it's like all of these different conflicting people have all come 346 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.480 together and you know, us, being human beings, we're all flawed. 347 00:23:57.519 --> 00:24:00.960 There's no good, there's no bad, which is a part of that. 348 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.839 You know, it's a Rick's Cafe. American is a symbol for the world 349 00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.079 in general, which I think is why it it touched so many people, 350 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:14.680 because it was so ridiculously did such a wonderful job at the box office for 351 00:24:14.839 --> 00:24:19.880 Warner Brothers more than other Bogart films had definitely Yeah, I mean, if 352 00:24:19.880 --> 00:24:23.720 you think about it, Bogart had been kind of he was the heavy you 353 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.599 know until until Maltese Falcon. But you know, Sam Spain's not a shining 354 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:33.400 character either, so so you know, this is really the first time he's 355 00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:38.720 playing a romantic lead. And so this was sort of out of the realm 356 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:42.519 for Bogart and he I mean, it's funny when you look at some of 357 00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:45.160 the stuff he did in the late thirties. You know, he did he 358 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.359 didn't you know, horror movies, He did westerns, and it's so he 359 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:53.039 plays Benny Davis's stable boy, the stable with an iron with a bad Irish 360 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.240 accent. Yeah, and uh and so yeah, I think this is the 361 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.400 movie. Well, Malti's Falcon is and he starts to really get into the 362 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:03.759 Bogart persona. But this is when he steps into sort of Bogart the icon 363 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.920 and he never loses that until, you know, until he passes away about 364 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:18.680 fifteen years after this. But you're right, yeah, this is pure Bogart, 365 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:22.240 and he nobody was better at walking that line between black and white like 366 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:29.680 he did, and it's a fascinating character. And it's so amazing to me 367 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:34.799 because he is such a perfect screen actor. It's hard for me to think 368 00:25:34.839 --> 00:25:38.839 of him on the stage the way that he started out, because he's so 369 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:44.440 good at being subtle, and the camera just picks up every little movement that 370 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.759 he does so well, and he knows how to work the camera and yeah, 371 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.440 I mean, it's just and this is one of those perfect screen performances. 372 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:56.279 Oh yeah, And I think you were saying that on what the podcast 373 00:25:56.279 --> 00:26:00.680 I was listening to today, is that he is fantastic because he is so 374 00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.759 subtle. I think so many of the great Hollywood male stars of the time, 375 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:08.880 the fantastic ones, Spencer Tracy, Claude, Rain's, Humphrey Bogart were 376 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:12.599 fantastic because they were subtle. I know, Spencer Tracy said acting as the 377 00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.440 easiest thing in the world as long as you don't let anybody catch you doing 378 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:19.559 it, especially on film, and you know, for the time also, 379 00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.319 you get somebody like Betty Davis who had come from the New York theater and 380 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:29.079 you're like, I wonder what these guys looked like on stage, you know, 381 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:33.000 if they were anything like Betty Davis. But yeah, I know the 382 00:26:33.079 --> 00:26:37.680 Maltese Falcon, I guess, you know, iconic Bogart. Really the class 383 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.599 that we see comes from Casablanca. I know a lot of the films that 384 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:45.119 he took at Warner Brothers were b pictures that have been turned down by George 385 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:49.559 Raft. And by the time they got they finished the Maltese Fultcan. Because 386 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:53.119 that was I think a little bit more successful than they had planned it to 387 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.880 be. The Warner Brothers press department wrote a letter I'm not sure if it 388 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:02.960 was Hal Wallace or Jack Warner that said we need to start looking at projects 389 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:07.799 for Bogart, not George Raft, you know, not George Raft to Bogo. 390 00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:11.119 George Raft had the worst taste and taking roles because what is it? 391 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:15.480 He turned down this, He turned down Malty's Falcon, and then he turned 392 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:22.160 down the Fred mc murray rolling Double Indemnity. I mean, obviously the guy 393 00:27:22.200 --> 00:27:26.279 had no, no, no idea what a good script was. I know, 394 00:27:26.680 --> 00:27:30.079 I haven't seen many George Raft films. The only one I can think 395 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.240 up off the top of my head is I think he was in Oh, 396 00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.839 it was either Hell on Frisco Bay or was he in that or was he 397 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.759 Black Widow? I can't remember what it was like, you know, either 398 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.920 Warner Brothers or fox Feld for the mid fifties. But the only thing I 399 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.160 know much about George Raft is that when Lucy first came to Hollywood and was 400 00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:52.359 fired by Samuel Goldwyn, he was one of the ones that got her the 401 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.400 job at RKO. He was smart enough to take the role of Spats Colombo 402 00:27:56.599 --> 00:28:08.799 and some like it hot years later though, is that? What are your 403 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:14.400 some of your favorite moments from this film, the entire film? The big 404 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:18.759 the easier question would be what are not my favorite? Okay, you know, 405 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:22.599 no, no, no, it's I go back and forth so much. 406 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:27.279 But my favorite moment in the movie really it's the moment that gives me 407 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.720 chills and gives me a lump in the throat every time. And it's the 408 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:37.039 it's as time goes by moment when when Ilsa first reconnects with Sam and and 409 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:41.440 it's like I said, this movie is so great at unspoken subtext, and 410 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.400 and it's the unspoken thing subtext between them, and then of course you know 411 00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.119 it's it's the famous you know, play it, Sam play as Time goes 412 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.079 by and he's weary about playing it, but he does, and Duley Wilson 413 00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:59.559 is so great at singing that song. And then Rick walks in, and 414 00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.519 the and that whole section where the two of them reconnect and you the first 415 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.400 time viewing, you don't know the history between them, but you feel the 416 00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:08.799 history between them, and then the second time you watch it, when you 417 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.880 know the history between them, it's an even greater meaning. And so and 418 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.400 so that's what I love about this movie is it's it rewards you both times, 419 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:19.400 on your first viewing and on subsequent viewings. But yeah, that that 420 00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:23.519 is Time goes By moment in a a in a sea of great moments, 421 00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.960 I think that's that's the one that always sticks out to me. Yeah, 422 00:29:29.000 --> 00:29:33.039 for sure, I think that is a beautiful moment. I think the exposition 423 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:38.039 of this film is so fantastically well done, more than other films except maybe 424 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:41.720 the Letter that just scares the tar out of you from the very first right. 425 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.319 But yeah, this the fact, you know, it starts off like 426 00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:49.880 a documentary, and the fact it's almost like watching the sequence in Chindler's List 427 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:55.200 when you're watching all of the these Jews being boarded onto this train. It's 428 00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:59.519 like the exposition of all of these refugees that have been affected by this war. 429 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:03.599 iiO and then whoever wrote it, I know, it does a beautiful 430 00:30:03.680 --> 00:30:07.200 job of introducing all of the characters. At the very beginning of the film. 431 00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:08.960 You learn everything you need to know about everything, and it seems like 432 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:15.160 everybody has a purpose in that opening scene, even though it is just exposition. 433 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.440 I know Sydney green Street was not supposed to be in the opening scene. 434 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.440 How By Wallace could only get him if he gave him an extra scene, 435 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:27.039 so that's why he put him in that introduction. But yeah, that 436 00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:33.400 the cafe takes on its own world, which is what I appreciate so much. 437 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:36.880 It may not be a specific moment, but just being in the cafe 438 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:38.799 and knowing that there's all sorts of different types of people in there at all 439 00:30:38.839 --> 00:30:42.400 times. And you mentioned it a little bit earlier, it is like kind 440 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:49.119 of it's an amalgamation of the world's cafe right there. And because nobody can 441 00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:56.640 get in and out of Casablanca without you know, specifically following these crazy rules 442 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:00.279 in order to get out and to have those you know, magical letters of 443 00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:04.480 transit it's like everybody is stuck in this location. And I think that's why 444 00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:08.519 this movie also fascinates everybody. It's that I can't think of another movie that 445 00:31:08.599 --> 00:31:15.279 has such a setting that has you know, high stakes and romance and intrigue, 446 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.799 everything all at the same time. And it looks fantastic, you know, 447 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.920 when here you are in the middle of you know, northern Africa and 448 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:26.160 you're in this glamorous nightclub that looks like it would be in New York or 449 00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:30.039 someplace like that, and everyone is dressed to the nines. And then also 450 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.039 you have got that what a brilliant touch it was. I don't know if 451 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.920 it was Kurtiz or Arthur Edison or who it was to have you know, 452 00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:40.279 the searchlight constantly going around too, and which gives it that sort of extra 453 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:45.240 bit of suspense as well. It's just everything, like we said before, 454 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.559 every decision that was made with this movie just works and it all came together, 455 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.799 oh for sure. And you know, everybody being in that nightclub, 456 00:31:52.839 --> 00:31:57.960 there are so many people in Casablanca, they're basically in limbo ye and major 457 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:04.079 Strassa says that Elsa, he said, it's something like lives are cheap or 458 00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:08.839 human Life is in Casablanca. Yeah, it's because everybody who's anybody is there, 459 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:13.079 and it it almost reminds me. Have you seen Between Two Worlds, 460 00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.200 which is I think two years there? Yes, yes, with Paul Henry 461 00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:21.640 Eleanor Parker, and that actually had Sidney green Street and oh Edmund is it 462 00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:25.720 Edmund not Edmund for Edmund, Gwen John Garfield. Yeah, but they're all 463 00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:30.799 caught in limbo too. It's because they've been you know, they've been killed 464 00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:34.400 in a London bombing rate and they're on the trip to the afterlife. I 465 00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:36.880 don't know if that was very successful. I just know I saw it on 466 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:39.200 TC HIM a long time ago and I thought was it It was absolutely brilliant. 467 00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:44.319 But yeah, And another relationship I wanted to talk about because people taught 468 00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:52.200 I think Renault and Rick is it is a it's a perfect relationship. Renault, 469 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:53.920 he's kind of you know, he's gonna be anybody's little bitch who's going 470 00:32:53.960 --> 00:32:58.559 to help him, Wong he's going to you know, and just the fact, 471 00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:00.640 I don't know completely how got away with it with the production code, 472 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:04.119 but he was you know, sleeping with women to get you know, so 473 00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:07.680 they could get their letters of transet, and when you watch it, it's 474 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:09.400 like, you know, I always say on my show, you know, 475 00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:14.000 the production code was stringent, but the really clever writers and directors knew how 476 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:17.599 to get around things very very well, because a lot of things would go 477 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.839 over censor's heads, it would go over you know, Middle America's heads or 478 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.599 whatever. But a lot of the stuff that Louis Renou does in this movie 479 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:30.079 is pretty blatant, and they really spell it out. So I don't know, 480 00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:32.519 I don't know if it's just that this is, you know, this 481 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:39.240 is a movie where there's such moral ambiguity and everybody is sort of jockeying for 482 00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:44.559 position, and so they just kind of overlook it. I don't know if 483 00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:46.680 it's you know, the fact that you know, it was wartime and this 484 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:50.880 movie, you know, really was, you know, explaining the evils of 485 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.559 war. It's just really fascinating to me how they let some of the stuff 486 00:33:53.559 --> 00:34:00.160 get by, because you know, it's incredibly clear that Louis slept with the 487 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:05.079 Bulgarian, a girl who's who just got married or what. It's very clear, 488 00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:09.199 I know, And she asks Rick, would you forgive a girl that 489 00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:14.360 did something very very terrible to protect you if you knew that she loved you 490 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.559 and you know that she's done that. I think part of that moral ambiguity, 491 00:34:19.639 --> 00:34:24.719 I know that it was the script was finished, not completely finished, 492 00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:29.519 but the majority of it was finished and submitted to the Production Code before the 493 00:34:29.559 --> 00:34:35.920 Office of War Information Motion Bureau, the Motion bre the Motion Picture Bureau was 494 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.599 set up on Hollywood and buying and a lot of the you know, almost 495 00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:43.800 Sacharine flag waving that you get from films like Tinder Comrade and Since You went 496 00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:46.599 Away was because of the Office of War Information. You know, they wanted 497 00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:52.320 to make the war look as spectacular as they possibly could, and it wasn't 498 00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:54.599 until they went away that we got movies like Battleground where we're like, what 499 00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:59.119 in the heck are we actually doing here? So I think being able to 500 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:04.639 kind of exploit the evils of war was the fact that the ow I had 501 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:08.719 not been set up yet. And I think part of it just kind of 502 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:14.880 because Okay, according to Round Up the Usual Suspects, they say that like 503 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.880 Joseph Breen wrote a letter to I can't I can't remember who he is communicating 504 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:23.559 with, Helbi Wallace or Jack Warner, that said, because there were lines 505 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:28.559 that pointed to Louie having sex with the women so that they could get their 506 00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:32.280 letters of transit. There was something that pointed to that that said, you 507 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:36.440 know, we can't have this in the movie. That that is bad because 508 00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:42.159 people don't have sex, you know, according to the according to the yeah, 509 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:47.280 the Hayes code. But he also after after they okayed the script and 510 00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:52.239 they made the film, they submitted the film to Joseph Breen. He saw 511 00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:57.800 it and then he immediately called Halby Wallace and told him how fantastic it was, 512 00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:00.679 how much he loved it, which is it is a great movie. 513 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:04.679 But some of the things in it, you're like, are you sure this 514 00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.840 was okay with you? Are you just passing it by? Because it all 515 00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:13.199 works so well together, I don't exactly know what happened from point A to 516 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.480 point B, And yeah, a lot of the details in the making of 517 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:21.760 these films are lost. It also makes it not as much as with Louis, 518 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.599 but it also kind of spells out a little bit that Rick and Elsa 519 00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.800 slept together in Paris two, that there are moments in the flashback where you 520 00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:31.880 where you see them, you know, you know, almost almost going to 521 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.719 bed together the night or being somewhere the morning after. So you really it 522 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.760 spells that out pretty well too. So so, yeah, this movie gets 523 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:44.480 away with many things that I don't think. Yeah, you're right, A 524 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.639 movie a year or two later would have it kind of hit it right in 525 00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:51.760 that sweet spot, right exactly. Well, and yeah in Paris, I 526 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:54.119 mean, in a film made today, they'd sleep together and we'd watch every 527 00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:58.920 moment of it. Yeah, But I do, and I do enjoy the 528 00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:02.880 mystery of did didn't they? Yeah, exactly. I know that it would 529 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:07.039 have been looked down on the production code for her because she was apparently married 530 00:37:07.039 --> 00:37:09.480 to Laslow when she was having the affair with Bogart. So at the time, 531 00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:15.599 I think she thought that Victor Laslow was dead because he had he was 532 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:19.960 reportedly shot at a concentration camp, which shoudn't end up happening because he he 533 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:23.199 was he came to Casablanca with Elsa. But I think if they had not 534 00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:27.599 put the plot point in there that she thought he was dead, she wouldn't 535 00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:30.159 have gotten away with it, because you know, that kind of adulterous affair 536 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:35.599 would have been very looked down upon. True talking about wonderful relationships. I 537 00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:38.480 think so many people talk about Rick and Louis as we were a while ago, 538 00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:43.400 which I think is a wonderful relationship. I think a true friendship is 539 00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:50.679 between Rick and Duley Wilson because Juley Wilson is not it's a strange character for 540 00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:53.880 that time because he's not exactly a butler. He doesn't. He's almost like 541 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:58.440 just a best friend that goes around where Rick is and you know, plays 542 00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:01.960 the piano wherever he is. And I think part of it, you know, 543 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.119 if they've been able to enlarge the character, which I don't know if 544 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:08.519 they would have or not, but I think we would have seen that he 545 00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:13.679 knows Rick better than anybody else does possibly eat and Elsa. He's the only 546 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:16.199 one to really he's the only one you really ever see can fight and Rick 547 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:21.719 at all, or Rick can fight in you know, Rick and Carl have 548 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:25.880 a few nice moments c Sacal's character, but but yeah, it really, 549 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:31.800 it really is interesting how because Sam Sam's a paid employee, just like everybody 550 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.159 else in Rix Cafe is, but he's part of Rix' center circle and the 551 00:38:36.199 --> 00:38:38.800 others aren't, which is fascinating. And you know, the two of them, 552 00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:42.239 the two of them in Paris. You know, they're you know, 553 00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:45.480 they travel together, they you know, they they they spend a lot of 554 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:51.719 their time together. It's a really fascinating character and really sort of forward for 555 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.039 nineteen forty two. The only the only thing that sticks out to me that's 556 00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.840 kind of a little blemish is when Elsa refers to him as a boy, 557 00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:02.280 which she when she tells them, But that is the only I mean, 558 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:07.039 in this entire movie. I think that's the only blemish on this otherwise perfect 559 00:39:07.239 --> 00:39:09.039 movie. Well, yeah, she asked too, as the boy playing the 560 00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:13.599 piano list like, you want to restate that before I answer it. But 561 00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:17.039 I know, well, and that's kind of strange to me. You look 562 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:22.079 at like the history. I know, the ow I encouraged films to put 563 00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:28.920 characters of color in positions that were not Butler's and we're not maids. You 564 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:32.239 still got that throughout the war, and they also wanted characters of color working 565 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:37.400 or fighting side by side, you know, Caucasian characters, which I don't 566 00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:39.280 think always worked out that well. I know, I think it was the 567 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:45.360 previous year and forty one there were several giant mobs that attacked theaters in the 568 00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:47.800 South because Kevin and the Sky came out, which is all black cast, 569 00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.679 and none of those characters are maids and butlers. They're living their own lives. 570 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:57.320 So the fact that you have a character Julie Wilson that is obviously not 571 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.880 he's not any kind of man of it for Rick, and it's more of 572 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.519 a friend. I'm wondering if there were any because I haven't been able to 573 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.960 look if there were any stories, Probably I don't know it, you know, 574 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.599 any bad stories, not that I've heard. Yeah, I know, 575 00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:20.639 like Lena Horne coming to MGM, she couldn't touch white actors in scenes because 576 00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:22.199 they had to cut out all of her scenes for when they show them in 577 00:40:22.199 --> 00:40:28.039 the South, which is one reason why she only sang in movies. It's 578 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.559 the same thing with the Nicholas brothers at Fox. They had, Yeah, 579 00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:35.159 you know that they cut all of their numbers out of the movies. I 580 00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.320 think, well, finally and The Pirate, you know, Gene Kelly, 581 00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:39.920 you know, made it so that you couldn't take them out because some of 582 00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:45.400 his biggest numbers are with them, right. Well, oh no, I 583 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:47.000 was just gonna say, yeah, I mean, but but you know, 584 00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:52.800 Sam is so nicely integrated into the story and Casablanca it's you know, it's 585 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:57.000 he's embedded. It's impossible. But yeah, in musicals it was a lot 586 00:40:57.039 --> 00:41:00.079 easier because you can easily take musical numbers out, which doesn't make sense for 587 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:07.920 a musical, but well for the like the musical Golden Age of entertainment, 588 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.480 where so many musicals it was just for the sake of entertainment, not for 589 00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:15.679 furthering the plot. I know that in the one of the original drafts of 590 00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:19.400 the Pirate, I've read that Lena Horn was supposed to be Judy Garland's best 591 00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:24.280 friend, and finally they decided just to completely cut her out because they thought 592 00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:29.599 this would be just too too much of a problem. So I know Lena 593 00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:34.360 Horn. The hairdressers would not touch her hair at MGM. They had to 594 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.360 hire someone of color specifically to come in and do her hair, which is 595 00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:42.639 very unfortunate. But also Lena Horn has a very interesting story with Bogart. 596 00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.440 While we're talking about Bogart that when she moved into Oh, I forget what 597 00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:52.000 neighborhood was it, Hombi Hills, Holmby Hills, Homby Hills. The neighborhood 598 00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.519 she was Humphrey Bogart's neighbor and when he was married to Mayo, which is 599 00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:59.960 why he was having such a bad problem, bad problems when he was making 600 00:42:00.119 --> 00:42:02.320 this movie, because they were constantly ripping each other's faces off, quite literally. 601 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.239 She said that once she had to sneak in in the middle of the 602 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.840 night, and once they found out that she and her I think maybe her 603 00:42:09.880 --> 00:42:14.280 aunt or her mother and her two babies were living in that house. There 604 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:17.440 is a petition that went around the Hombie Hills neighborhood to get them kicked out. 605 00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.440 And Bogart, you know, said I if he threatened this petition that 606 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:25.719 you know, should you have any problems, you should come talk to me. 607 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.079 And he told her if anybody should threaten you, you send them right 608 00:42:30.119 --> 00:42:32.880 my way and I'll take care of them, which is which is I think 609 00:42:34.000 --> 00:42:38.000 is a wonderful, wonderful gesture of who Brogart actually was. I know he 610 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.280 was. You can watch him in this movie. He's a he's a very 611 00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:45.920 slight man. He's very intimidating because of the persona he's come up with. 612 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:50.639 But he's he's not huge, and obviously he wasn't, you know, just 613 00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:55.199 incredibly healthy. But I know that many times in bars after he started making 614 00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:59.079 films like this, people would always pick fights with him because they thought he 615 00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.960 was the bad guy, bad tough guy, Humphrey Bogart, right, and 616 00:43:04.119 --> 00:43:08.840 he but just like in the movie, he has this he has this rough 617 00:43:09.039 --> 00:43:13.440 exterior and yet you know, everyone is poking at him saying, you know, 618 00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:15.880 it's that famous line that Lewis says, underneath that cynical shell, you're 619 00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:21.760 a hardest sentimentalist. And so that that is always at the core of Bogart 620 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:24.519 in every movie except maybe Treasure of the Sarah Madreyer in a Lonely Place. 621 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:34.880 But but Bogart always has this prickly exterior. But inside there is this you 622 00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:37.920 know that there's this heart of gold, there's this sentimentality. And I think 623 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:42.079 that's why audiences have, you know, drawn, been drawn to him so 624 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:45.400 much, because there are so many layers to peel back with him, and 625 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.880 you're constantly doing that and all of his work. Oh, for sure, 626 00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:52.039 do you have while we're just kind of talking about Bogart, do you have 627 00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:58.440 any other favorites of Bogarts that you've seen? Oh? So many? I 628 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:01.440 Bogart, I you know, I could I could do a whole show about 629 00:44:01.480 --> 00:44:06.800 Bogart's work. But I love you know, like certainly, certainly The African 630 00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:09.239 Queen is one of my favorites. Certainly, I think he's brilliant in The 631 00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:16.199 Cane Mutiny. Yeah, I think that one of my favorite film noirs is 632 00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:22.559 In a Lonely Place with him and Gloria Graham I and and of It's Funny. 633 00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:25.039 Of the four, I love all four movies he did with Lauren McCall, 634 00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:29.800 but I think my I think my favorite is probably their least known, 635 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:34.280 and that's Dark Passage where you don't see him for the first half of the 636 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.880 movie. The camera is him, right, But I won't spoil it for 637 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:42.599 anyone who hasn't seen it. But it's a quirky, fun movie if you 638 00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:49.199 haven't seen it. But yeah, Agnes Moorehead is just a trap. I 639 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.159 mean, who else would fly off the handle and throw themselves out of an 640 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.239 apartment building? But like I but like I said, Cassle Blank is my 641 00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.360 favorite movie. But if you were to put a gun to my head and 642 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:01.440 say, what's Bogart's best performance, Treasure of the Sarah Maud Right, He's 643 00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:05.760 brilliant. He is brilliant. He is really brilliant. I haven't seen that 644 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.320 in quite a while. I watched it on TCM maybe about five or six 645 00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:12.239 years ago. I need to get back into that. He has so many 646 00:45:12.280 --> 00:45:15.639 wonderful films. I get so caught up and just like researching and watching this 647 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:19.880 one specific film over and over and over again that I've found that it's like 648 00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:22.320 I don't have time to watch all of the classic films I would like to, 649 00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:27.480 But he is somebody that I really need to go back and watch. 650 00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:31.880 Yes, but Dark Passage, I think visually, anybody who's listening who wants 651 00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:36.519 to kind of look into the Warner archive all for all four of their films 652 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.079 to have and have not. The Big Sleep, Dark Passage and Key Largo 653 00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:43.000 are all of the available in Blu ray. I think visually it is the 654 00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:47.599 most interesting because it is like walking into a noir nightmare. Yeah yeah, 655 00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:52.559 I for me, the most suspenseful, the one that always keeps me in 656 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.079 my seat the longest is Key Largo. It's it's yeah, riveting and disturbing, 657 00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.360 Oh my goodness, And you know, nobody else but Edward g Robinson 658 00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:05.639 would be able to pull that off. And everg Robinson and Claire Trevor those 659 00:46:05.679 --> 00:46:08.519 two and that movie. Oh my god, the scene where he forces her 660 00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:14.440 to sing is so uncomfortable and she's so brilliant. Have you heard that story 661 00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:17.199 behind it? The director, I can't remember who directed it at John Houston, 662 00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:22.360 John Houston of course, of course, as John Houston Claire Trevor was. 663 00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.800 She kept asking him, Okay, so when are we going to rehearse 664 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:28.559 the song I'm gonna have to sing? And he didn't until the very day 665 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.280 that they were shooting it. He was like, Okay, get up and 666 00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:36.960 see it. But have you seen two weeks in another town? Yes, 667 00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:45.000 and that is I think that is Claire Trevor's revenge on Eberg. She's terrible 668 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:49.440 to him and she's off there the Yeah, it's one of those. It's 669 00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:52.239 one of those almost brilliant Vincent Manelli melodramas that you're like, oh, you 670 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:57.360 got so close to it being it's like the cobweb, so close to it 671 00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.079 being so great, but it just kind of veers into camp. It's yeah, 672 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:04.440 it's it's it's a great companion piece. It's not nearly as good as 673 00:47:04.480 --> 00:47:07.079 The Bad and the Beautiful, but it's a nice companion piece to watch with 674 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.480 The Bat and the Beautiful. There's a lot of connections. The use of 675 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:14.519 panavision and metro color is very interesting in that movie. But I'm sorry, 676 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:16.119 I got us way off track. From across the block eye you and I 677 00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:20.639 could probably do this all night. It's like, finally somebody I can talk 678 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.320 to old movies about. But yeah, I was gonna say, you brought 679 00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:29.639 up you know, it's a fantastic ensemble cast, which I said more towards 680 00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:32.119 the beginning of the movie. I think one thing that made how Wallace such 681 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:37.800 a fantastic producer is he realized talent and he realized like everybody comes to Rick. 682 00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:42.320 When it finally was produced on the London stage, I think around nineteen 683 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:46.119 ninety six, it got terrible, terrible reviews because I think it focused more 684 00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:50.320 on Rick and Elsa, who was Lois in the play, and she was 685 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:54.920 actually more kind of She wasn't a likable character, I don't think in the 686 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:59.599 play, which Ingrid Bergmann made her likable, and so did the Epstein's and 687 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:02.360 Howard that's the way they wrote her. But the fact that you have all 688 00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:07.559 of these tiny little ensemble characters running around Holb Wallace knew even though he was 689 00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:12.880 gonna have to dish out more money that if he could get some strong characters 690 00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.960 such as Peter Laurie as he's a call, Sidney green Street, even Paul 691 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:20.760 Henrid to play these smaller parts, that he was going to have a piece 692 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:25.400 that is so much more fleshed out. Isn't it funny that we we associate, 693 00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:29.360 you know, Peter Laurie and Sidney green Street with the lore of this 694 00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:31.880 movie, and they all have very limited screen time, and yet they are 695 00:48:31.920 --> 00:48:36.760 so indelible in the little bits of screen time that they get. You just 696 00:48:36.800 --> 00:48:39.920 think that they're on screen longer. But you know, Peter Laurie, we 697 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:44.599 associate so much with this movie, and he's dead within the first fifteen minutes. 698 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:46.920 And Sidney green Street, you know, he has, you know, 699 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.679 three small scenes, but he's unforgettable too. And and you know sc Sikl 700 00:48:52.760 --> 00:48:57.760 has more screen time I think than green Street and Laurie probably put together right, 701 00:48:57.800 --> 00:49:00.599 And it's I think that's all this movie. It's like all my favorite 702 00:49:00.679 --> 00:49:05.159 character actors in one movie together too, exactly. And we could talk the 703 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:07.599 rest of the night about like our actual favorite movies of each of it. 704 00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:13.400 Like all I mean, I associate him so much more with like Christmas in 705 00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.960 Connecticut and in the good old summertime. Yeah, he's got a great little 706 00:49:16.039 --> 00:49:21.079 scene in a Yankee Doodle Dandy with the James Cagney he does. Yeah, 707 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:23.800 he's he's perfect in all of them. And talking about Flamingo Roads Sydney Green 708 00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:29.280 Street is one of his strongest. It's one of his I mean, it's 709 00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:32.840 despicable. He's despicable. It just makes you want to root for Joan Crawford, 710 00:49:32.840 --> 00:49:40.280 who isn't that great herself. No, but yeah, it's it's almost 711 00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:44.599 like, you know, the good producers, because it was the producers ran 712 00:49:44.679 --> 00:49:46.800 the shows in the studios. It was not the directors, which is very 713 00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:51.039 different today, someone like you know, John Houseman. I don't know if 714 00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:54.880 you've ever heard of Nina Fosch talk about executive suite. When John Houseman asked 715 00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:00.519 her shortly after she signed her contract with Metro well several years because she had 716 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:01.719 been at Columbia's for so long, he said, I want you to do 717 00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:06.000 this part in this film I'm producing at Metro and she was like, okay, 718 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:07.719 great. She was like, can I read the script? And he 719 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:08.840 was like no, go ahead and sign and then I'll get you the script. 720 00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:13.039 She signed. She read the script and her part in Executive Suite is 721 00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:20.400 tiny and yeah, and she said she got mad at him because it was 722 00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:22.880 so small, and he was like, just look into the character. And 723 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.880 she spent all this time doing this research and building this character, and you 724 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.239 know, producers, new actors that were going to do that and add and 725 00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:34.719 she was. She was nominated for an Academy Award even though she barely had 726 00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:39.199 any screen time. And Executive Suite, well, I just just a plug, 727 00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:42.760 I guess for my own podcast. But we just did. We just 728 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:46.119 did an episode on Network which I dropped at the at the time of us 729 00:50:46.159 --> 00:50:52.440 recording this, and two performances in that movie that only have one scene, 730 00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:57.159 Ned Baty and Beatrice Strait both got nominated and Beatrice Strain ends up winning. 731 00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:01.000 But yeah, you make the most of what screen time you're given and sometimes 732 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:05.960 it sometimes an audience will remember you more than someone who maybe has more screen 733 00:51:06.000 --> 00:51:19.519 time. My first experience with Casa Blanca was I got the DVD for Christmas. 734 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:21.880 I think I was in fifth sixth grade, and it was like the 735 00:51:21.960 --> 00:51:25.719 Delexe Special to Disc edition. I still have it, probably won't watch it 736 00:51:25.760 --> 00:51:30.679 after watching The four K Blu Ray won't ever watch it again because I'm like, 737 00:51:30.039 --> 00:51:35.719 yeah, anyway, picture quality, but I like, I think I 738 00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.960 said this. I felt like it was another stock kind of Warner Brothers melodrama 739 00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:42.960 at the time, And as I got older and learned more about the Holocaust, 740 00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:45.920 what the war was going what the world was going through with the war 741 00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:50.039 at that point, it became so much more, so much more impactful. 742 00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:54.760 And it's like, you know, the script is just ridiculously corny. These 743 00:51:55.000 --> 00:52:00.320 these films, these lines that we say are so corny, they work together 744 00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:01.679 so well when they're put together. And I think it was one of the 745 00:52:01.719 --> 00:52:07.239 Epstein's Epstein's or Howard Kotch who called it slick shit. They were like, 746 00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.159 we never expected it to be any good, but they just got it down 747 00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:15.840 to a fine polish. It just works, like I said, And and 748 00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:21.639 I think it's because you're putting these lines in the mouths of actors who aren't 749 00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:28.079 to their core melodramatic, because this movie is pure melodrama. But Bogart is 750 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.719 never going to sound melodramatic because he's too salt of the earth to do that. 751 00:52:31.199 --> 00:52:35.159 Yea, And Ingrid and Ingrid Bergmann is too sincere, dude, to 752 00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:37.960 make it sound like that as well. If you put if you put if 753 00:52:37.960 --> 00:52:42.639 you put these lines in the mouths of someone like Betty Davis, we keep 754 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:46.199 picking on Betty Davis. I love Betty Davis, or or you know or 755 00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:51.199 or or you know people like that, it certainly would come off as over 756 00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:55.760 the top. But because it's in the mouths of people who really believe what 757 00:52:55.760 --> 00:53:01.840 they're saying and sort of take you off kilter and don't necessarily meet your expectations 758 00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:07.199 of what they're going to do, it really works. Because if you I 759 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:10.639 mean the final scene, if you read that whole speech just on paper, 760 00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:15.039 it does sound really corny, but out of the mouth of Humphrey Bogart, 761 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:20.000 it just sounds right, and it just sounds perfect, and it gives you 762 00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:24.800 chills every time you watch it, exactly and it's his subtlety that adds so 763 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:28.599 much to it. And for so many of these people, so many of 764 00:53:28.599 --> 00:53:31.440 these actors, it was easy. It was just like breathing their delivery on 765 00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:36.360 these speeches, and it was so beautiful. One thing that you mentioned, 766 00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:39.800 you said, this very beautiful and glamorous night Cup Club in Casablanca. I 767 00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:45.320 know that the original costumes that Ory Kelly had designed were much more glamorous than 768 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:50.280 what we originally saw in the finished film, even though we see them today 769 00:53:50.400 --> 00:53:52.880 and you know, it's like we never dress up that much anymore unless we 770 00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:57.599 were going to the met Gala. But still, I know that a lot 771 00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:01.400 of Holbie Wallace had a problem with them being so beautiful, and like Ingrid 772 00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:06.840 Bergmann was going to be in furs and jewels and silts and satins, which 773 00:54:07.440 --> 00:54:13.679 first and foremost right because this was being made, This went into production almost 774 00:54:13.880 --> 00:54:16.840 like four or five months right after Pearl Harbor was his Parl Harbor. Yeah, 775 00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:22.599 and so then the United States government started to ration everything, and so 776 00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:27.079 they're like, not only do we not have the materials anymore, this does 777 00:54:27.119 --> 00:54:30.599 not make sense for like Paul Henrid and Ingrid Bergmann to be traveling with all 778 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:35.639 of his finery because they've literally been refugees themselves, have been on the right. 779 00:54:36.440 --> 00:54:39.920 Yeah. I was. I was watching one of the documentaries on the 780 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:43.920 Blu Ray and it is interesting, you know, and like you mentioned, 781 00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.800 it compared to us today, where you know, we're at a time where 782 00:54:45.800 --> 00:54:52.159 nobody dresses up for anything anymore, and so it does look extra glamorous to 783 00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:55.599 us, but I think Ingrid Bergmann, she looks glamorous enough. But everything 784 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:59.639 is so simple. It looks like stuff you could travel in, and it 785 00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:02.159 looks like stuff that is easy to put on. But also everyone kind of 786 00:55:02.199 --> 00:55:07.000 also has their own color palette. You know Bogart, you know, Bogart 787 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.719 and Henried are always in sort of white or cream. And then you've got 788 00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:14.679 you know, the Nazis, who are always sort of in darker outfits, 789 00:55:14.719 --> 00:55:17.000 and Claude Rains is a little more ambiguous, so he's got a mix of 790 00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:22.239 stuff. So yeah, it's really it really is smart, and it really 791 00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:27.079 is like we mentioned before, it's a lot of it's a lot of studio 792 00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:31.320 craftsmen who knew exactly what they were doing. They might not have all been 793 00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:35.880 like on the same page at the same time, but every decision that was 794 00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:37.920 made comes together. One thing that one of your co hosts said today that 795 00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:42.400 I was listening, was like, you know, the studio system may not 796 00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:46.199 have always been a great way to make art. I do not especially think 797 00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:50.880 it was a very it was a very uplifting environment for anybody. It was 798 00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:53.039 just a bunch of people that were some of them were underpaid, some of 799 00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:59.599 them were overpaid, that were all running towards a finished goal. But somehow 800 00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:05.280 they all came together in so many films to create different beautiful works of art. 801 00:56:05.760 --> 00:56:09.239 Yes, yeah, and it's like they were their giant repertory companies. 802 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:15.519 Well well, and it's interesting the studio system is so full of just contradictions 803 00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:22.599 because, you know, we think of maybe nowadays we get more artsy product, 804 00:56:22.840 --> 00:56:27.039 you know, just because there's more independent or in the seventies and eighties, 805 00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:30.639 and yet we've got corporations running movie studios. You know, we've got 806 00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:36.559 people who aren't artistic whatsoever. And back then you had men, you know, 807 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:40.280 you know, one or two men running each studio who actually had theatrical 808 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:45.400 backgrounds and knew what they were talking about, right, and knew what scripts 809 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.159 worked and what didn't and everything. And so so you would think that, 810 00:56:49.400 --> 00:56:52.000 you know, more artistic product would be turned out back then because you actually 811 00:56:52.039 --> 00:56:57.920 had people who had theatrical backgrounds and all of that. So so many contradictions 812 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:02.199 about that time. But you're right, I mean, like everything, they 813 00:57:02.199 --> 00:57:08.039 wanted to make money, and yet because there were so many talented people doing 814 00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:15.960 what they did best. Masterpieces were created exactly, and yeah, masterpieces with 815 00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.199 their own identity, depending on what studio they were with. Yes, I 816 00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:22.360 think one thing that we're talking we've been talking about with Cosablanca is you know, 817 00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:28.280 the studio Warner Brothers in particular, was considered so progressive, so socially 818 00:57:28.480 --> 00:57:32.599 edgy, you know, compared to other studios because the Warners were even though 819 00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:37.599 Harry Warner was much more of a conservative Christian than Jack was, they were 820 00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:44.320 very much against the, like I said, the Nazi regime, whereas Louis 821 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:45.880 b. Mayer was, well he was. I think they were all against 822 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:51.519 the Nazi regime. It just they all were. It just I think it 823 00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:55.639 took a little longer for some people to do that, just because they wanted 824 00:57:55.639 --> 00:58:00.360 their product to still play in Germany, I think. Right. Well, 825 00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:02.639 and I mean, you know, talking about Warner Brothers in Marches or Warner 826 00:58:02.719 --> 00:58:07.840 Archivers releasing Confessions of a Nazi Spy, which is really the first Hollywood film 827 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:10.480 that came out of Warner Brothers with Edward g. Robinson, who I had 828 00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:15.480 believe was a Jewish refugee. Yeah, it was the first film because they 829 00:58:15.480 --> 00:58:21.239 were in nineteen thirty nine to vilify the Nazis, and they were terrified of 830 00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:23.480 losing that business, which is a reason so many nineteen forty films were not 831 00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:28.920 shot in technicolor. Yeah, and it's the and what you know you're talking 832 00:58:28.920 --> 00:58:31.280 about, you know, the differences in studios and you know, if you 833 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:36.320 look at you know, Warner Brothers does something like Confessions of a Nazi Spy 834 00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:38.880 to speak out against the Nazis, whereas across town, Louis b. Mayor 835 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:43.840 does something like Missus Miniver to speak I guess so's it's just a it's a 836 00:58:43.880 --> 00:58:46.960 difference in style. It's a difference in approach, but with the same goal, 837 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:51.960 just a different way of going about it, I know exactly. And 838 00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:58.280 that's another that's another thing. You know, so much Hollywood being towards FT 839 00:58:58.440 --> 00:59:00.400 because it was FDR's war the time, is what it was considered. So 840 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:06.599 it was considered a leftist war even you know, and that's where the Academy 841 00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:10.440 Awards war because in nineteen forty three, Missus Miniver won for Best Picture and 842 00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:14.280 in nineteen forty four across a bloc of one, so you can see, 843 00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:15.840 you know, they were all trying to push the war effort, and it 844 00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:20.440 wasn't just because they were about the war. They were phenomenal films. Oh 845 00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:24.239 yeah, yeah, it's so much, so many movies made during that time. 846 00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:29.079 I've said before, I think I think the World War two era is 847 00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:31.400 one of my favorite eras of filmmaking, just because you know, so much 848 00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:35.519 of it was propaganda. But when you watch it, so many of those 849 00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.159 movies still hold up so well and they still work, and you can always 850 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:45.679 pick which of those studios appeal to you the most, you know, I 851 00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:49.440 you know, I love MGM, I love the gloss, I love everything, 852 00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.360 but I also love the realism of Warner Brothers, and so that I 853 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:54.880 think that was fun, and I think that was what was so great about 854 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:59.280 that time is you kind of knew what you were getting from every studio, 855 00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:00.880 and if you were in the for something gritty, you would go see Warner 856 01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:05.480 Brothers. And if you wanted to escape and not think about something for two 857 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:07.239 hours, you went to an MGM or a Fox movie. So yeah, 858 01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:12.639 right, yeah. Betty Davis always said, you know, the grass is 859 01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:15.639 always greener, but I heard her say on the Dickkevitt interview. Also, 860 01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:19.360 of course, I've watched the entire thing as well. But she always said, 861 01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:22.199 now, MGM, that is where they made real women's pictures. And 862 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:25.360 in my mind, it's like, you might have had to fight harder at 863 01:00:25.360 --> 01:00:30.519 Warner Brothers to get your movies made, but I feel like they were socially. 864 01:00:30.079 --> 01:00:37.239 Socially they were better movies. They pushed harder than the MGM movies did. 865 01:00:37.559 --> 01:00:42.079 Oh yeah, Greer Garson and Katherine Hepburn might have had some phenomenal chances 866 01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:44.880 to play some phenomenal women, but none of them had the grit and the 867 01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:47.639 passion that Betty Davis did. And I feel like that was allowed because she 868 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:52.639 was working at Warner Brothers. She was at the studio of Bogart, Cagney 869 01:00:52.639 --> 01:00:55.000 and Flynn, so they weren't as interested in making, you know, women's 870 01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:59.599 movies. So she andt Haviland and you know, they had to They just 871 01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:02.519 had to extra hard, whereas at MGM they just kind of passed out the 872 01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:07.320 women's scripts like they were going out of style, almost exactly. Well, 873 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.519 yeah and yeah, and by the time Joan Crawford got to Warner Brothers, 874 01:01:10.519 --> 01:01:14.599 Betty Davis had gotten it down to a fine art. So she was just 875 01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.719 that's another story that is another story. You want to spend the next two 876 01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:23.039 hours talking about Joe Crawford at Warner Brothers. But okay, so let's get 877 01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:25.760 back because I've read that book. I was just going to sit down and 878 01:01:25.800 --> 01:01:29.920 talk to you, just talk to you about why you love this movie, 879 01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:32.159 and I think we've definitely gotten this. I don't. I was going to 880 01:01:32.199 --> 01:01:36.840 say, I don't think this movie would have existed without, which is a 881 01:01:36.920 --> 01:01:38.840 terrible thing to say. It's like, you know, this podcast wouldn't have 882 01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:44.400 happened without the pandemic. This movie wouldn't have existed without Pearl Harbor being bombed, 883 01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:51.039 because you know, the funny thing is that this script came to the 884 01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:55.320 story department at Warner Brothers on December eighth, nineteen forty one. So that's 885 01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:59.920 when they knew that the world was in war. You know, in war 886 01:02:00.239 --> 01:02:04.000 in like everything, Hollywood has to exploit everything for money, and they knew 887 01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:07.119 they could exploit this war to make money, which is one reason why Cossablanca 888 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:12.719 got its way in well, and there's so much serendipity with what happened with 889 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:15.119 this movie, which is another reason why it's you know, there's so much 890 01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:22.159 lore and everything because When this movie opened, the Allies landed in Casablanca, 891 01:02:22.239 --> 01:02:28.679 so it was on the front page of every paper. And also, you 892 01:02:28.719 --> 01:02:32.199 know, just put yourself in the shoes of a moviegover in nineteen forty two, 893 01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:37.280 the war is not going well for us and who you know, And 894 01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:42.000 I heard Steven Spielberg on the documentary on the Blue Rays say people were wondering 895 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.920 if there was still going to be USA two to three years after that. 896 01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:50.440 So watching this movie and you know, you're sort of walking off into the 897 01:02:50.559 --> 01:02:53.679 unknown like Rick and Louis at the end. So it took on a much 898 01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:59.440 different meaning than it does now because we know actually what happens. But to 899 01:02:59.760 --> 01:03:02.159 be a moviego or at the time and for it to be so relevant then 900 01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:07.199 and it's still relevant now because it's a movie about sacrifice, and it's a 901 01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:12.719 movie about putting the needs of others above yours, and it's still you know, 902 01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:15.599 those themes are timeless, but they were incredibly timeless in nineteen forty two 903 01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:19.679 and forty three, oh for sure. And I mean it's like you know 904 01:03:19.719 --> 01:03:22.599 nowadays, in twenty twenty, we thought, okay, so where do we 905 01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:24.480 go from here? Is this the end of it all? And you know, 906 01:03:24.880 --> 01:03:28.800 audiences in nineteen forty two could have been thinking the same thing. I've 907 01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:35.000 heard that it did, like the Ally Well the Spring the film was slated 908 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:38.639 for a nineteen forty three spring release, but because the Allies landed in Crossablanca, 909 01:03:38.679 --> 01:03:42.920 Warner Brothers was like, now release it now, Yes, and so 910 01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:47.000 it So that's why so many people say it was made and forty it's either 911 01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:50.880 forty two or forty three, but it was made and for well, yeah, 912 01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:53.800 wherever it's funny, wherever you look it up, it's always different. 913 01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:58.199 Sometimes it'll have a nineteen forty two in parentheses. Sometimes I'll have in nineteen 914 01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:01.440 forty three in parentheses, no matter what it Yeah, it was up for 915 01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:06.840 the forty or well, yeah, the Oscar in forty four, the forty 916 01:04:06.880 --> 01:04:11.280 three oscars that were presented in forty four years exactly. Yeah, it had 917 01:04:11.400 --> 01:04:14.360 so it had to wait a long time for it to again oscars. So 918 01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:16.760 really, I mean the movie stayed on the minds of Academy voters for a 919 01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.920 long time, which, yeah, which is is the It means it was 920 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:26.159 a great movie because the other that I think one of the biggest box office 921 01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:30.119 hits in forty three was Song of Bernadette, which everybody thought was going to 922 01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:34.480 sweep the Oscars, which it practically did, I think until I mean Best 923 01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:41.159 Screenplay and Best Picture, and Warner Brothers took those home, and Michael Curtiz 924 01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:43.960 got Best Director. Yeah, best, yes, best, as he should. 925 01:04:44.039 --> 01:04:46.280 We didn't even get to talk about Michael Kurtiz. I love Michael Curtiz. 926 01:04:46.360 --> 01:04:51.800 He he's He and Victor Fleming are the two directors which you know are 927 01:04:51.800 --> 01:04:55.960 not on the tips of a lot of people's tongues, and yet they directed 928 01:04:56.599 --> 01:05:00.599 so many great movies. If you look at if you like well, first 929 01:05:00.599 --> 01:05:03.079 of all, if you look at Michael Curtiz's career, you think he directed 930 01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:06.440 this. He directed The Adventures of Robinhood. He directed Mildred Pearce. He 931 01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:12.239 directed Yankee Doodle Dandy. He directed Elizabeth and Essex. He directed White Christmas. 932 01:05:12.639 --> 01:05:16.239 Yeah, I mean, It's Captain Blood. So many different movies, 933 01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:21.159 with so many different genres. And he may not have had a certain visual 934 01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:27.679 style or a certain or a certain literary style like Hitchcock or Billy Wilder or 935 01:05:27.679 --> 01:05:31.000 something like that, but he knew how to take the material he had and 936 01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:36.400 utilize it to its best potential. And that I mean he was I put 937 01:05:36.440 --> 01:05:41.440 him right up with those masters at that time. Oh for sure. Yeah, 938 01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:45.519 Like you said, you know, he didn't have a specific style completely, 939 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:51.880 but he knew how to adapt to the material that he was working with. 940 01:05:53.800 --> 01:05:58.199 I know that when we did our Adventures of Robinhood episode episode, because 941 01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:01.000 Adventures of Robinhood was the very first film where Jack Warner was like actually, 942 01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:04.360 like, oh, this is a master director. Because Eryl Flynn had asked 943 01:06:04.400 --> 01:06:09.119 for William Keeley, which was not working out, so they brought in Michael 944 01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:14.199 Kurtiz and he got the picture done well and also his sets. They would 945 01:06:14.199 --> 01:06:18.320 spend sometime seventeen or eighteen hours a day on the set working. Halbi Wallace 946 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:23.239 was very worried at first with Michael Curtiz on The Adventures of Robinhood because he 947 01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:27.559 knew he liked to be very, very prop and scenery heavy, and he 948 01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:30.840 was afraid that they were going to get caught so caught up in the props 949 01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:32.599 and the scenery that you were going to lose the action that was going on 950 01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:38.119 screen. And I think after the Adventures of Robinhood came out is when Jack 951 01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:41.280 Warner signed him to a very long contract and gave him a lot of money. 952 01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:45.679 And yeah, I know he was a German Jewish refugee, well not 953 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:50.440 exactly a refugee. He came in nineteen twenty six, before Hitler had come 954 01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:56.760 to power. But I know by the time they made Casablanca he had had 955 01:06:57.079 --> 01:07:00.039 I think he had had several loved ones that had died in concentration camps. 956 01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:03.159 Yeah, most of the people in that film did, so it was it 957 01:07:03.199 --> 01:07:08.599 was very, very close to them. Yeah, Victor Fleming and Michael Kurtiz 958 01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:14.719 though both definitely fabulous directors. I know Victor Fleming most of course from Wizard 959 01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:18.599 of Oz and Got with the Wind and but like Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde 960 01:07:19.039 --> 01:07:24.280 things like that as well. A guy, a guy named Joe Yes Brett 961 01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:28.960 red Dust Yet you know, so he did he some gabled, did some 962 01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:31.159 of his best work with Victor Fleming, and he did a lot of The 963 01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:36.519 Treasure Island with Wallace Bury and Jackie Cooper, so that he did some solid 964 01:07:36.519 --> 01:07:40.840 work too. He died. He died fairly young in the late forties, 965 01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:44.199 so he didn't get he didn't get to do as huge of a body work. 966 01:07:44.239 --> 01:07:46.880 But what he did during his time is pretty solid. Oh for sure. 967 01:07:47.039 --> 01:07:51.119 Yeah, yeah, and that yeah, so many of those Unfortunately, 968 01:07:51.239 --> 01:07:56.599 like Herbert is it Herbert Stothart who wrote, who underscored all of the films 969 01:07:56.599 --> 01:08:00.719 that Metro died the late forties and then in the early six these some of 970 01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:03.320 those people that worked on the artists that work behind the scenes on those films 971 01:08:03.559 --> 01:08:10.119 at Metro, especially MGA musicals, just started dropping off like flies, which 972 01:08:10.159 --> 01:08:12.880 it was like, I guess this is the signal that we're coming to the 973 01:08:12.960 --> 01:08:16.159 end of this. So yeah, yeah, yeah, we will. You 974 01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:19.680 and I need to do just a whole episode on MGM musical we do. 975 01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:25.760 I tell you, we'll talk about it for five hours. Yeah, But 976 01:08:26.039 --> 01:08:30.880 I mean, I appreciate you so much sitting down and talking with me. 977 01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:33.880 I really appreciate all of your input. I love meeting you, I love 978 01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:38.119 talking with you. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today. 979 01:08:38.159 --> 01:08:41.840 It was awesome to meet you. Brandon. We are. If you've listened 980 01:08:41.920 --> 01:08:45.159 to this episode today and you have a problem, like there's something you'd like 981 01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:46.720 to add to the conversation, or you heard something that you were like, 982 01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:49.680 oh, I'm not completely sure if that's true, feel free to write into 983 01:08:49.720 --> 01:08:53.960 the Hollywood Babylonians at gmail dot com. Or if you have a movie you'd 984 01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.720 like us to cover or talk about, please write in and would read your 985 01:08:57.760 --> 01:09:00.159 letter on the air we might cover your move movie. Please follow us on 986 01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:06.000 Instagram, Facebook, TikTok and YouTube at the Hollywood Babylonians for more Hollywood Babylonians 987 01:09:06.039 --> 01:09:13.399 content. Until next time, this is Brandon Davis and Ben Burke. Thank 988 01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:24.680 you for listening to the Hollywood Babylonians. You have been listening to the Hollywood 989 01:09:24.760 --> 01:09:30.880 Babylonians. The Hollywood Babylonians is produced, edited and hosted by Bin burg and 990 01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:35.720 co hosted by Brandon Davis, audio engineering by Andrew Davis, with artwork by 991 01:09:35.760 --> 01:09:40.560 Bin Burke and Jamie Lee. If you liked what you heard today, be 992 01:09:40.600 --> 01:09:44.680 sure to rate, review, and subscribe and follow us on TikTok, Instagram, 993 01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:50.319 Facebook, and YouTube at the Hollywood Babylonians for more Hollywood Babylonians content. 994 01:09:50.880 --> 01:10:00.199 Thank you for listening and have a good night ya