1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,400 RSS feed where all the shows have no ADS. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,839 --> 00:00:24,199 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:29,519 you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around 7 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:33,320 the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Oslow will 8 00:00:33,359 --> 00:00:37,119 be me twenty first through the twenty fifth. Go to NDC Oslo dot com 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,840 to register. NDC Copenhagen is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:48,880 The early bird discount for NDC Copenhagen ends June second. Go to NDC Copenhagen 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,719 dot com for more information. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:59,000 The early bird discount for DC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to 13 00:00:59,079 --> 00:01:03,840 EDDC Porto Do calm to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at 14 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:21,799 NDC Conferences dot com. Welcome back to dot Net Rocks. This is Carl 15 00:01:21,879 --> 00:01:26,680 Franklin and this is Richard Campbell in our respective corners of North America. How 16 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:30,439 are you doing, buddy? What's up? Raining? Lots of rain? 17 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,120 Oh you know, at least it's not freezing. No, it's not freezing 18 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:38,680 anymore, warmed up. Yeah, but yeah, you know it's spring season. 19 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:40,599 How the bears come out yet? Oh? Yeah, no, the 20 00:01:40,599 --> 00:01:44,400 bears are around, no question. We've actually had a full size mountain lion 21 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,200 wandering around, evading fish and wildlife quite successfully, because they really don't like 22 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,599 having ninety pound cats walking around the neighborhood. But yeah, yeah, I've 23 00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:59,400 got a good shot of her headed back into the backyard and into the forest 24 00:01:59,439 --> 00:02:01,599 behind me. But plenty of other neighbors gotten shots of her as well. 25 00:02:01,719 --> 00:02:08,199 So you know that story about Roy Rogers and Dale Evans. Dale Evans got 26 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:15,120 Roy Rogers a new pair of boots for Easter, and he went out hunting 27 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:20,199 and he comes across this mountain line which jumped at him, and he pulled 28 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:24,159 out his pistol and shot it dead. And but before before the cat died, 29 00:02:24,159 --> 00:02:29,479 it just completely you know, fought. He had to fight it off, 30 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:35,120 right, and and it tore the crap out of his boots, so 31 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,240 he slings it over his back and he comes walking up the lane way and 32 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:43,199 Dale Evans is on the porch and she says, part of me, Roy, 33 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,599 is that the cat that cheered your new shoes. Oh man, that 34 00:02:46,759 --> 00:02:54,000 was a long way to go. Oh boy. Okay, well, anyway, 35 00:02:54,039 --> 00:03:07,960 let's start start to show. We'd better know framework this being episode eighteen 36 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,800 forty five. If you go to eighteen forty five dot pwop dot me, 37 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,759 you will see a tweet from one McKay Wrigley and he says, Jarvis is 38 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:27,240 now reality. My GPT four coding assistant can now build and deploy brand new 39 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:31,879 web apps. It initializes my project, builds my app, creates a GitHub 40 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:38,039 repo, and deploys it to versell all from simply using my voice. Cool, 41 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:45,879 and he's got a video there And I just thought this was really telling. 42 00:03:45,919 --> 00:03:49,680 And I remember, do you? You probably may or may not remember 43 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,479 this because this might have been before you, but we were talking about automation 44 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:57,199 and everything, and I was saying, you know, someday you'll be able 45 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,280 to just walk up to a computer and have a conversation with it in regular 46 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:08,520 language, and it will spit out a fully functional business logic included app or 47 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,159 whatever. And whoever was on the line that day said, nah, that's 48 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:16,480 that's not going to happen. That'll never happen. And I don't know that 49 00:04:16,519 --> 00:04:19,160 it has happened, you know, I don't know that it has either. 50 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:24,839 But air quotes fully functional. Like near as I can tell, you've managed 51 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,720 to build a DevOps You put a chat interface on top of a DevOps engine. 52 00:04:29,759 --> 00:04:31,759 Okay, So are you saying that this is never going to happen? 53 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:38,560 I think nevers a funny word, right, nice edge. Well, eventually 54 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,680 the sun expands and incinerates the planet too, So right, what context do 55 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,040 you want never in? Okay? How about in our lifetime? Do you 56 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,720 think some of you able to walk up to a computer have a conversation, 57 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,439 you know, have the things say okay, what happens when they press this 58 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:59,839 button and you say it and then it spits out let's say, ninety percent 59 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:03,680 to a completed application. Yeah, we've already had that technology in our lifetime. 60 00:05:03,879 --> 00:05:06,480 It's just a question of was it good enough? Because it's also a 61 00:05:06,519 --> 00:05:11,360 moving goalpost, right right, once upon a time, as long as it 62 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:15,040 rendered eighty by twenty five texting a green screen. It was good enough. 63 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,000 Yeah, right now, I expect it to be on a phone, on 64 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,160 a tablet, on a PC, works in the cloud, works at home. 65 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:27,800 Like, expectations keep shifting, so as long as that momentum is maintained, 66 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:30,480 and one would argue we've been stuck in the same form factors for quite 67 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:34,560 a while now, Yeah, I guess it also depends on the you know, 68 00:05:34,639 --> 00:05:40,639 the nature of the app. Right. If it's just forms over data, 69 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:43,959 I can see that happening. But if it's you know, got something 70 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,040 that you need to hire a CSS guru for because it has to be pixel 71 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:49,920 perfect, that's going to be hard. It depends on what the visualizations are. 72 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:53,319 Yeah, it's going to be hard to describe it. But look at 73 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,560 the chat interface on top of Power platform for forms over data, that where 74 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,360 you can describe your intent. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, 75 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:02,839 no, it's very exciting. Well anyway, that's when I got we 76 00:06:02,879 --> 00:06:05,800 are very much in a hype cycle right now. Friendly, Yes we are, 77 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,360 Yes, we are, all right. So I was talking to us 78 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,800 today. I grabbed a comment off of show fifteen sixty six, so I'm 79 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,879 going back a bit. That's the show we did in July of twenty eighteen 80 00:06:15,879 --> 00:06:19,920 with Corey House talking about graphs Quel, although we didn't talk a fair bit 81 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:25,319 of any framework in relationship, it's too graph ql. And this particular comment 82 00:06:25,319 --> 00:06:28,600 comes from Mike Bateman who said, hey guys, long time listener, first 83 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,000 comment, and we only waited six years to read it five. I work 84 00:06:32,079 --> 00:06:35,519 for a big company building APIs where we do rest but not all the verbs. 85 00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:41,000 Nobody does all the verbs, O data and a little blend of both. 86 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,120 I love this episode. It dug into issues we face as API builders 87 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,560 and consumers. I'm glad that O data has been talked about again, as 88 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:49,279 we been using it for years, both internally and externally. And my first 89 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,120 impressions of graphql I thought it was a rip off of O data, which 90 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:56,480 is not that other thing. However, as I dug into the detail of 91 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,279 graph QLL, I found it to be more mature, better supported. UI 92 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:03,279 tooling is a massive help. The notification of description feature caught my attention to 93 00:07:03,399 --> 00:07:06,839 and this is five years ago. You know, graph QLs improved since then. 94 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,639 We have lots of sequel databases and any framework models coated up and using 95 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:16,079 graphql dot Net library which made building graph qul service is much quicker and easier 96 00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:20,560 than o data and as for depth and intense quarrying issues, those existed no 97 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,199 data two. We were hit on a Saturday afternoon with some crazy od data 98 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,199 queries that actually took down our sequel servers. Always on a Saturday after right, 99 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,639 and that's the way that works. I'm sad that o data wasn't endorsed 100 00:07:34,639 --> 00:07:39,120 as much as graphql when it first came out, but I'm glad graph qul 101 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,480 is here. I'm gonna encourage our fellow dot net devs to consider it when 102 00:07:42,519 --> 00:07:46,720 building an API. Xmel yea, no, thanks, no, thanks, 103 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,759 Jason, Yes, please more of that. Please, it's great work and 104 00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:53,319 keep it up. Oh, great work to you too, Mike. Sorry 105 00:07:53,319 --> 00:07:56,120 it took me five years reread it is gone because it's awesome. Yeah, 106 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,920 yeah, and yeah it Isn't it fascinating how data is evolved and the way 107 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:05,079 we're working these days, although it seems pretty stable at the moment, like 108 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,879 we've got a good stack running with us, and props to Doug Crocfrot totally. 109 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,160 Yeah. So, Mike, thank you so much for comment. And 110 00:08:11,199 --> 00:08:13,360 a copy of music Code Buy is on its way to you, and if 111 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,560 you'd like a copy of music codey I read a comment on the website dot 112 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:18,600 at rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We read every one of them 113 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:22,360 and we comment on a few, and when we read that comment, I'll 114 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,560 send you a copy of music. Go buy hey, and definitely follow us 115 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,839 on Twitter. That's all fine and good, but you should think about following 116 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,840 us on mastadon because that's where the fun is happening these days. I'm at 117 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,679 Carl Franklin at tech hub dot social and I'm at Rich Campbell at mastodon dot 118 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,360 social. Send us a tute. We like getting them. And you know, 119 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,639 if you send us a tute that's a comment on the show, we'll 120 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,919 read it, just like we do when you posted on facebooks and all that 121 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,120 other stuff. Right, absolutely, all right, And with that, let 122 00:08:54,159 --> 00:08:58,480 me try to pronounce Eric's last name and middle name and not screw it up. 123 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:05,360 Eric's SkELL Jansen. How's that perfect? All right? He is a 124 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:11,759 principal consultant at Delegate As He maintains a number of open source data access tools 125 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:18,120 and libraries, including ef core power tools and sequel like Toolbox for Visual Studio 126 00:09:18,639 --> 00:09:26,600 and Multiple Entity Framework providers. He's been awarded Microsoft MVP fourteen times and enjoys 127 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,840 running comic books and walking his dog. So do you run the comic books 128 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,960 and walk the dog or do you walk the comic books and run the dog. 129 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:43,480 There's a comma there, I'm sorry, Leaves. Yeah, let's see 130 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:48,399 grandma enough, Maybe I'm mast comma. Yes, thank you, Yeah, 131 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:52,919 welcome to dot net rocks. It's great to have you. Recently, I 132 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,399 brought up entity framework as being I made a joke about it being a rapper 133 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:03,559 around some exception or something like that, and when and only because I have 134 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,080 a little pain with and the framework, and I'm hoping that you might be 135 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,679 able to help me answer the question that I have. But I'll get to 136 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:16,600 that a little bit later. First, why don't you introduce yourself and tell 137 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,240 us about what you've been working unlately. Yeah, my name is as you 138 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:28,200 said, and I work as a consultant and create apps in usually custom apps 139 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:35,399 running in as your cloud based on native app services, and I frequently use 140 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:41,720 a sequel server for those apps. It's believe it or not, it's actually 141 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:46,600 something that's still in use. Is everywhere. Man's never going away, I 142 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:52,159 doubt it, and that's quite a good offering called as a sequel database, 143 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:58,000 which is everything is completely managed for you. You don't need to do backups, 144 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:01,320 you don't need to worry about high available because everything is already available in 145 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,879 three copies, even for the for the cheapest stock keeping units and so on. 146 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,960 I've actually taken advantage of that before UM where you know it's like damn, 147 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,200 I really need a backup of this database. Hey wait a minute, 148 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,679 there, don't don't go looking. Yeah so yeah, so, And I 149 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:30,000 often I like to be productive when I when I develop as well, and 150 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,240 I think ef core, UM entity framor core can really help in that respect. 151 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,840 And I have for the benefit of myself and in order to be even 152 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:43,200 more productive, but also to help others, I have published some tools and 153 00:11:43,279 --> 00:11:48,879 some libraries to to help developers be more productive, for example e of core 154 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:54,720 power tools. So so, when ef core was initiated together with dot net 155 00:11:54,799 --> 00:12:00,879 core back in the day, I think that was like two thousand in seventeen 156 00:12:01,039 --> 00:12:07,679 sixteen. Round that time, the team didn't work on any graphical tooling because 157 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:16,440 it was cross platform, so the effort was spent on on the run time 158 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:24,480 and performance optimization and not on graphical tools for a particular platform, like Missile 159 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:30,120 Studio on Windows, for example. So I grabbed that opportunity to publish IF 160 00:12:30,159 --> 00:12:35,240 core power tools in agreement with the courteen because they didn't want to have anything 161 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:43,000 to do with it. And it actually makes makes you able to very quickly 162 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:52,240 start using your database, your existing database with ef cores by scaffolding the necessary 163 00:12:52,279 --> 00:12:56,399 classes and dB context mappings and so on, so so you can in a 164 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,159 stronger type fashion, can communicate with your database from c shop. This was 165 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:07,440 obviously before that stuff was built Individual studio. Yeah, it's like in for 166 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,480 the IF six classic, if you wish that was you could create an idio 167 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,840 mix in visual Studio. But I mean that was also very much bound to 168 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:24,039 Visual Studio and Windows and that whole infrastructure West dot net core was really aimed 169 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,080 at being cross platform, of course, and addressing so we should be able 170 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,519 to run on one all kind of other operating systems like Linux and Mac and 171 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:37,840 so on. And I know it's a little bit crazy, but they actually 172 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,320 open sourced entity framework before dot net core, I know, I know, 173 00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:46,720 and and actually contributed to that as well at that time. And I think, 174 00:13:46,919 --> 00:13:50,960 I mean, I'm not sure. It was the first project that Microsoft 175 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,360 really where they really embraced open source. I think it was a open source 176 00:13:54,399 --> 00:14:01,960 at the same time as ESPNT for something, but they really embraced open source 177 00:14:01,039 --> 00:14:05,279 in a in a in a good way. It was one on something called 178 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,759 cooplex. Yeah, remember, which was before get back exactly back in the 179 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:18,279 day. But but yes, but the team was really open to towards contributions 180 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:24,120 from from computer community members and was really helpful in providing guidance on how do 181 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:28,240 I do this, because it's like they were using some weird source control system. 182 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:31,679 It wasn't I can't remember now. It was their own internal one and 183 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:37,200 it was bizarre. Yeah, exactly. It was like like homemade pre gets 184 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,840 something well, and and GitHub was the product that was the space that learned 185 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:46,200 how to take contributors from externals and so forth. So when they were doing 186 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,840 this or coplex, there really was no mechanism for that, Like if you 187 00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:54,480 were part of that. That's a great story too, because they were most 188 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:58,320 people that most of the groups that posted stuff on the coplex, they were 189 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:01,840 building it internally and then we're just sort of pushing the thing up the CodePlex 190 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:03,919 to take feedback. Yeah, they were never really trying to get code from 191 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:07,480 that, but you actually we're trying to contribute back then. Actually somehow, 192 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,639 Yeah, I was struggling, but somehow I managed to contribute. Yeah, 193 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:16,879 it's awesome. Yeah. Did you contribute to the code that we run now, 194 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:22,120 the di scaffolding for Enity framework. I have contributed to the code that 195 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,120 is running today, the scaffolding for interfaming and other features, but in particularly 196 00:15:26,159 --> 00:15:31,919 the scaffolding code I have contributed to because that is the basis I use for 197 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,360 the visual tooling. That visual tools tooling is built on top of that. 198 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,840 Wow. Of course I didn't didn't want to have to reinvent the wheel. 199 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,879 And the basic framework provides like each provider, Like a provider is something that 200 00:15:46,919 --> 00:15:52,440 advises a particular database system like Sequel Light, Sequel Server as a sequel, 201 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:58,159 and the post quest and the Oracle whatever, and they each have the application 202 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,360 to provide a model that describes the structure of a of a database that you 203 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,879 pointed to. And so there's a common API for consuming a description of what 204 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:15,039 the database schema looks like. Wow. So so each provider already supplies that 205 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:23,159 metadata mechanism and of course I'm I'm not. I don't want to reinvent anything 206 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:30,759 basically, so so I'm using all those mechanisms that are built into the framework 207 00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:34,639 and building on top of that. To me, what was important about what 208 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:40,519 became Entity framework ord the open source version of any framework, is that it's 209 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:45,840 essentially the first time that Microsoft a Microsoft team took an existing closed source property 210 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,440 and made an open source version from it, which seems impossible, like from 211 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,679 the inside. When they succeeded at that, it wasn't. It was the 212 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:02,799 most important piece of code is that it was a mechanism that didn't wasn't believed 213 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:07,039 to be possible because you know, a normal way that Microsoft builds code is 214 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:10,640 they're covering it in patents all the time. Every time you finish a feature, 215 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,640 you know, as a developer, you're basically sitting with a lawyer going 216 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,599 through which you built and saying, is there a patent here? And you 217 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:19,160 get bonuses based on how many little cubes you get for getting patents? Right, 218 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,200 Yeah, can you not open source patented code only if you release the 219 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,920 patents, you're basically junking the patents forgetting about the patents. Wow? Yeah, 220 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,599 And so to open source entity framework. They unwound those in a variety 221 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,039 of ways. And should I ever finish this book and not actually die first 222 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,799 all the things they did is kind of madness, but it was profoundly to 223 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,559 me. It was profoundly important. But not so much again, not that 224 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,880 they did it, but that the affected had on the rest of the company. 225 00:17:49,839 --> 00:17:53,079 Yeah, because the rest of the company was then suddenly you were allowed 226 00:17:53,599 --> 00:18:00,319 to consider the idea of taking existing code and open source again, or that 227 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,519 it never think it's ever been done. I think about Scott Guthrie, who 228 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:08,400 championed the open source stuff in the cloud, and all of the patents in 229 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,599 his office. You've seen them, right, I mean they're hanging on the 230 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,640 walls, they're in trophies and stuff. He's got like one hundred patents or 231 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:22,119 something or more, well more, but plenty of azure Stool still closed source, 232 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,400 right, There's only certain things that are. I think we can assume 233 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,319 that quite big parts of a still close source. Yea very much. Yeah, 234 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,000 but but yeah, and the real answer to open sourcing dot Net was 235 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:37,640 to rewrite dot net. Yeah yeah, yeah, So the patterns may apply 236 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,880 to the old codebase, but they which is still closed source. But but 237 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:47,960 they actually is like from IF from IF's Classic five, which was completely close 238 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:53,359 source, and then they actually managed to build that when they initiated in a 239 00:18:53,440 --> 00:19:00,960 complex for for a version six and actually got at least one I think there 240 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:03,960 was. There was. There was more contributors than me. Not many, 241 00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:07,839 but there was. So the fact that they took contributors through Coplex to me 242 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,480 is fascinating because it shows Yeah, it pointed to the way forward and the 243 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:15,319 fact that they ultimately moved away from coplex and onto GitHub that was far better 244 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,160 suited to that problem. Absolutely, absolutely, and of course they realized that 245 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:26,519 when they started not need to call that that was an appropriate platform for doing 246 00:19:26,839 --> 00:19:30,759 things like signal R I think was the first, although it was it was 247 00:19:30,839 --> 00:19:36,680 started as a GitHub project and then became part of Microsoft later, but it 248 00:19:36,839 --> 00:19:41,000 certainly was a demonstration of contribution. Yeah, well, should we get back 249 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:45,759 to any framework? Sorry? Sorry, I could listen to your stories all 250 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:51,559 day and I can't wait to read your book. Yeah, it's only someone 251 00:19:51,599 --> 00:19:56,359 who write it'd be awesome. Let's ask the classic question for all anity framework 252 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,160 people, which is code first or database first? Yes, I'm I'm a 253 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:07,519 big fan of a database or let's this is call it database. Just call 254 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:14,359 it schemer first. Maybe, yes, I think that's a better name, 255 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:22,880 because it's like, if you do the pitfall of doing model first is that 256 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:34,319 unless you think schemer, think about the data type and the sizes and the 257 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:41,079 appropriate data type for each of your properties, um, you end up doing 258 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,079 something wrong. Like the classic one is, of course, the fact that 259 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:51,160 if you define something to be a string, it will end up as a 260 00:20:51,960 --> 00:21:00,799 barcha max property in field in the database, which I don't know, maybe 261 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:04,440 you don't know what this, which nobody actually wants. Nobody really wants a 262 00:21:04,839 --> 00:21:11,279 string two gigabyte string for storing that those one hunter. Yeah, if you 263 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,599 do want a too big abyte string, stop that. You don't do that. 264 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:19,759 That's story is a blob everything. You shouldn't do that anyway, not 265 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:26,160 in not in the poor database. So yeah something. Yeah, And I 266 00:21:26,279 --> 00:21:30,480 love the way you're describing this error because what you end up doing with code 267 00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:34,920 first then is being very clever about thinking about how you're going to make your 268 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,200 schemes. And if you're going to think that way, just make the schemas. 269 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:41,160 Yeah, it's more discribed exactly, because then you start. Then you 270 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:48,359 basically have to take a ate your model with a tiny fragments of something that 271 00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:56,759 looks basically like sequel, like in attributes or like small hint thing this isn't 272 00:21:56,279 --> 00:22:00,640 I don't want this. I want to store this as a string, but 273 00:22:00,759 --> 00:22:03,519 I don't want any foreign characters in it, so I want it to be 274 00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:07,559 non Unicode, so I have to use is unicode falls and I want it 275 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,480 to be only two hundred and fifty characters. I want my dates to be 276 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:18,480 as small as possible, so I want them to be with less precision and 277 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:19,920 so on. You know, it's an easy way to do that. It's 278 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,720 with create table. It's a very easy way to do that, exactly clear. 279 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:32,279 And the cool thing about it is that's actually in particular in the sequel 280 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,119 server area, which is my kind of area of expertise here, is that's 281 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:44,599 really really good tooling for doing that inside and outside of Visual Studio, in 282 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:49,599 visual studio and as your data studio Sigle management studio even yeah, I still 283 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:56,359 use that in single management studio even but in particular I'm really fond of of 284 00:22:56,519 --> 00:23:00,400 doing it inside visual studio in what is called a database project, because you 285 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:08,720 get like not only intelligence like you can't write bad create table statements that don't 286 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,440 build or compile or whatever you call it in the in the secul world, 287 00:23:14,559 --> 00:23:21,599 or cannot execute anyway. But you also get like a cohesive understanding of your 288 00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:26,640 entire schemer um as part of that tooling. So if you're writing a view 289 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:32,960 and you're referencing some other column and table from that view, you will not 290 00:23:33,039 --> 00:23:36,960 be able to write something pointing to a column that doesn't exist, because it 291 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:41,240 knows your entire schemer and can see that as a model and provide intelligence and 292 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,480 of course the built if you If you so, we will fail. If 293 00:23:47,079 --> 00:23:51,839 if you are inconsistent and referring to things that don't exist, right, you're 294 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:57,960 you're stirring up memories for me, Matt None road trip the what was the 295 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:03,400 nickname that for those data projects, There was a nickname for that technology individual 296 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:10,839 studio, that guy. We're old da data data data dude. That's it, 297 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,880 data dude. Yeah, you got it. You pulled it out, 298 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:18,240 nice one. That's right. That's all right. And this was the beginning 299 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,559 of treating that schema as source code. Yeah right, you no longer, 300 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,319 did you know? You no longer? Because you can't just drop a database 301 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,480 and recreated the data. And it's important. And so the fact that data 302 00:24:29,599 --> 00:24:33,759 Dude would would take your modified schema, analyze your existing database, and write 303 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:40,359 the altar statements for you. Yeah, you weren't storing the alter statements a 304 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,079 schema. You were storing a new schema as schema. But the tool would 305 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,880 would fix the two together. Like yeah, that's a that was a metic 306 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,599 juice, hugely power. Yes. So so I call it the Sciat State 307 00:24:55,000 --> 00:25:00,079 database M because you actually you're describing at this point in time, I'm in 308 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,799 order to accommodate this new feature or whatever, I need these two additional tables, 309 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:07,200 and I need an extra column, and I need a foreign key here 310 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,519 and there and so on, and this this is part of my my new 311 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,799 feature. And so so I want to describe after I implemented my new feature, 312 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,279 this is what I want the resulting schema to look like. Nice. 313 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,640 Yeah, So so this desired state, that's what I would call it here. 314 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,680 Yeah, No, And it's very compelling. And it's one of the 315 00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:33,160 arguments for code first is that it's just part of your you keep it all 316 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,240 part of your source code. But it's like, hey, you know better 317 00:25:36,279 --> 00:25:38,759 ways let's sea the schema part of the source code too, because it is 318 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,720 declarative and coherent, and you know, more people can work on it with 319 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:48,119 you, and it creates great results for Entity framework. So yeah, well 320 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,039 I'm glad we're in violent agreement, Eric, thank you for that. I 321 00:25:52,079 --> 00:25:53,240 don't know where we were gonna get. What is no no, no, 322 00:25:53,319 --> 00:25:59,400 no no? What is dak fx and so so? Dak fx is actually 323 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:07,960 an API that Microsoft publishes as a Nougat package dot Net API, which allows 324 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,599 you to manipulate the result of a database product. The output of a database 325 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,119 product is something called a duck pack, which is basically a SIP file with 326 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:25,400 some examil files inside it describing the schema. So this is what the tooling 327 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:30,839 reads when it's applying the changes. It reads this duck pack and compares it 328 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:37,799 with the running production database. That's dot d c P A C by the 329 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:44,839 way, E A c P. Yes. That framework allows you to create 330 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:51,799 duck packs programmatically and manipulate them and deploy them and so on from your from 331 00:26:51,839 --> 00:26:56,880 your own code. So that is essentially taking the taking a place of a 332 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:03,240 create scripts like script creation tool exactly exactly. So it's it's taking the place 333 00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:08,000 of a like migration script or so one is you can run this from your 334 00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:14,880 own code and do whatever you want. And that's also a command line tool 335 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,799 which of course is just a thin layer over this API called Sequel package, 336 00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:25,440 which is a dot Net global tool you can install these days. Wow, 337 00:27:25,599 --> 00:27:30,119 very cool, and that will actually do like the publishing of of your changes 338 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,880 and I have made tooling. The more part of the EF core power Tools 339 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,400 features set is that it can actually read the schemer from a duck pack and 340 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,880 generate the database model from that instead of from a running database. Nice. 341 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:52,839 Wow, So you have you have a like a sometimes here the term in 342 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:59,240 a developer loop or whatever that where you where you can actually create something with 343 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,960 your create table statements and then just quickly run this tooling and then it will 344 00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:11,400 update your c shop model and the c shop entities based on the team to 345 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,799 set you just made with your Sequel statements. Yeah. I like that fair 346 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,559 cool. And the more we can treat a database like it's just other code 347 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,839 part part of the overall package and goes with with versions and so forth. 348 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:29,279 Yea. And most importantly with that, it's sort of desired state mindset can 349 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:37,000 be rolled back I mean not recommended nobody, but it is possible. The 350 00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:40,880 main thing that everyone's terrified around database is getting that deadlock state where it's like 351 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,920 the old code won't run and the new code doesn't work, Like what do 352 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:48,000 we do? Yeah, yeah, guys, let's take a quick break, 353 00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:51,119 and when we come back, I'm gonna ask my question about my old pain. 354 00:28:51,359 --> 00:28:57,319 So stick around. We'll be right back, and we're back. You're 355 00:28:57,319 --> 00:29:00,240 listening to dot ned Rocks. I'm car Off Frankle, That's Richard Campbell, 356 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,160 and that's Eric Eiskal Jansen. Uh, and we're talking data. We're talking 357 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,279 Anny framework and so here you go. Eric. When you're using any frameworking 358 00:29:11,759 --> 00:29:15,960 creating a context that you're going to use on a web back end, like 359 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:19,119 say from an EPI controller, do you use tracking or do you turn it 360 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:26,279 off? It depends. So there is a use case for tracking, yeah, 361 00:29:26,319 --> 00:29:30,759 on a web back end, because I always found it to be to 362 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:37,000 get in the way. So what is that use? Use it for update 363 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:45,799 statements. But now there's this new fangled execute update EPI, so the use 364 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,000 of it is populist. Let's just step back, man. Yeah, yeah, 365 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:53,799 maybe a listeners can understand what why you are asking this question. So 366 00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:03,039 one of the major major features of IF core is also apart from the ability 367 00:30:03,079 --> 00:30:07,359 to generate sequel statement based on your careers, is the ability to track changes 368 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:14,880 to the to the entities that you hydrate from the database. And it's using 369 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,960 something called a change tracker, which keeps a copy of everything you read and 370 00:30:18,039 --> 00:30:23,359 then compare so when you're doing updates, it compares the properties see what has 371 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,799 changed. So it's only doing updates of things that have actually changed, so 372 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:36,559 it's not like doing a blindfold update of everything. And of course as an 373 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:41,119 overhead of running that, like you're you're doing copies of data and you have 374 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,200 to when you do saves, you have to do the comparison and to find 375 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:51,079 out what needs to be updated and so on. So so in in in 376 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:56,160 the ape and it's it's always on. You can switch it on, is 377 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:02,680 like switch it off for your entire context in your configuration. But but if 378 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,640 you don't do that, it's always on. So so you you end up 379 00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:11,920 having a lot of s note tracking statements in your code to turn it off 380 00:31:12,079 --> 00:31:15,759 or for careers that some simply gets stuff. Yeah, I fun, I 381 00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:18,519 can't remember the issue thought I was having but I think it was when I 382 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,960 went to go delete something. If some entity was out there that it was 383 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:30,119 tracking and I deleted it, it would complain it wouldn't let me delete things, 384 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,839 little things like that, and it's like, Hey, I'm the only 385 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,400 programmer here, right, why are you giving me this trouble? Why are 386 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,160 you hurting me? Yeah? Yeah, So I always turned it off, 387 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,359 and now that will. Of course seven they've actively made two new APIs, 388 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,480 one called execute delete and one called execute update okay, which is like you 389 00:31:52,599 --> 00:32:02,599 can it's basically sugarcoating over a link way of phrasing a bulk update or bulk 390 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,519 delete statement okay, and and by and by bulk it can I mean it 391 00:32:07,559 --> 00:32:10,880 can also just hit one road, doesn't have to hit many rows. But 392 00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:17,400 so and and of course then you kind of all this about change tracking forget 393 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:23,880 about it because you you basically just phrasing a strongly typed update statement or a 394 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:30,240 strongly type delete statement and it's not tracking anything. I guess. I guess 395 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:37,480 what's the benefit of tracking when you're only making calls into any framework database from 396 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:43,480 you know, an API controller and you know your your data manager is a 397 00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:45,960 singleton, and like, what's that what's the point of tracking. Before, 398 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:52,279 when you had to do a delete or an update on an on an existing 399 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:58,079 entity, you actually had to retrieve it first and then do your your remove 400 00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:02,839 method or your update your properties. So then you you actually had to have 401 00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:08,640 tracking enabled because otherwise ef CORPS wouldn't know about those. So if you were 402 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:14,599 changing like you have a record and you're changing a state column for example, 403 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:22,160 in a in a put method, then you would have to get the entity 404 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:29,680 and change track it and say I want to update the state from whatever completed 405 00:33:29,799 --> 00:33:34,039 or something like that, and then do a safe change is That was that 406 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,160 was the only way you could do that if you didn't, if you weren't 407 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:44,680 really keen on right on calling a stop proceedure of writing work. But now 408 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,720 with these two new APIs, you don't need to do that. If you 409 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,720 don't, if you just know the ID of the of the road to delete, 410 00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:59,039 for exam, you would just put from formulate a link statement where the 411 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:05,960 ID equal the idea that you just got in from the controller. Yeah. 412 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,360 Now you're making me think that I wrote my stuff wrong because it worked and 413 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:16,920 uh and I had change tracking turned off. We can do a code review 414 00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:20,159 later. Yeah, yeah, I would love to. That'd be great. 415 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,320 You know, I admit that I'm not an entity framework expert, but I 416 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:30,119 remember people often end up with doing things like attached and update methods, and 417 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,920 it's like things you should really use so hard, no exactly, yeah, 418 00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,559 so yeah, but but certainly the U the use of the change tracker as 419 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:46,079 a and and and tracking changes is really really useful when you have a desktop 420 00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:51,360 app, yeah, a state state full app. Yeah, and you have 421 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:57,360 a long lived TB context, yes, and that is barely the case in 422 00:34:57,519 --> 00:35:01,039 a in a web api s otherwise you're doing it wrong. Anyway. Any 423 00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:05,880 framework was designed during the age of wind forms and WPF, wasn't it. 424 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,360 Yeah, yeah, exactly, So it's like wind forms WPF, those kinds 425 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,679 of like yeah, like disk top apps, enterprise desktop apps, and they 426 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:21,920 had made a lot of sense to I will collect and a number of changes 427 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,599 on this form and then I will do a safe change. But unfortunately safe 428 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:32,400 changes. Remember when we call them smart clients, Yeah, something like that, 429 00:35:34,559 --> 00:35:39,840 why they were dumb clients. Well, and eventually into framework six would 430 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,960 then issue forty insert statements one by one, yeah, and you would sit 431 00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:52,920 there exactly. So yeah, it's improved since then. Yeah, yeah, 432 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:57,000 and we and we write software differently, let's face it, right, like 433 00:35:57,119 --> 00:36:00,280 that's it's interesting to think about trying to work any more dateless way, that 434 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,880 kind of normal scalable approach to software. But do you say, you know 435 00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:07,559 it's it's stay. We're talking STAATEF only for data, right. I mean, 436 00:36:08,039 --> 00:36:12,440 if you think about a Blazer application, right, a Blazer server application, 437 00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,159 there's state for every user, but it's not. You don't have long 438 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:22,239 held dB contacts for every user. That's crazy because you know if you have 439 00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:27,079 it's fine when you have one client, right and you have a few long 440 00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:31,639 running dB contacts, and that's all great when you're on a desktop app. 441 00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:36,039 But in a web app you millief blights, you're not going to have it. 442 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,920 It doesn't really escape. No, No, as the number of users 443 00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:45,920 rises above one one, you're in trouble. Yeah, yeah, you're in 444 00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:51,719 trouble. Yeah. So so the team actually makes a lot of improvements in 445 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,719 in that area also for us like swoot Putter and scalability, because they wanted 446 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:02,679 to to do better in a in a suite called take empower right where they're 447 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:09,559 measuring against other frameworks and competitors so to speak. We and we've talked about 448 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:13,480 this with Scott Hunter a number of times, that the dot net team as 449 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:20,159 a whole was big on let's get good scores on tech em power and the 450 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,480 combination of like razor pages on dot Net, raizor pages on the linking. 451 00:37:23,519 --> 00:37:29,559 It's like all those different kinds of setups, and you don't want to be 452 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,679 the one left out, no, exactly, you don't want it to not 453 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:37,159 be any framework exactly, And I mean you can call that. It's also 454 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:42,440 it's turned out maybe there were tweaking stuff for just for the purpose or making 455 00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:50,039 things, making very unusual choices about how they implemented stuff for the purpose of 456 00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:54,519 performance pure performance. Y. I'm looking at the number one dot net stack 457 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:07,639 bar chart right now tech empower. Coming in ninth is asp core on Linux 458 00:38:07,159 --> 00:38:15,400 with postgress raw data database connectivity writing directly the database. Ye. I don't 459 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,800 know that you do that right, but exact could be it's a structure to 460 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:28,760 get good performance exactly. But but I think you no matter why they did, 461 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:35,719 there's certainly the any user of ef core has benefited tremendously sure from from 462 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,599 that, from that optimization, and that the effort that was engineering effort that 463 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,960 was put into it. Yeah, there is an entity Framework one and it's 464 00:38:43,039 --> 00:38:47,559 thirty eighth and again still incredibly fast. Right like that. There's a huge 465 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:52,920 difference between the thirty eighth position and the first position is a small number. 466 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,000 But it's ASP dot net core running on Linux with Postgress as a database, 467 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:05,039 with entity framework. That's not that's a very reasonable stack. It is not 468 00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:07,079 unusual in any way to look at it. And and because you're talking, 469 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,480 they call it full o RM. So it's like, could be pointed at 470 00:39:10,519 --> 00:39:15,039 sequel, could be pointed at my sequel. You know, it doesn't matter. 471 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,519 I mean, performance is going to vary obviously, but just the fact 472 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:21,599 that you can point at it to say it's in there, it's in the 473 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,920 top hundred, yeah, you know. And it's so it runs in these 474 00:39:25,159 --> 00:39:32,199 extraordinarily high performance numbers. Admittedly for an artificial task, yeah, constructive test 475 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,400 is but yeah, but nonetheless, so, yeah, it's good to have 476 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:43,039 them there. Every every Entity framework Core provider, of course, needs an 477 00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:47,760 eighty O dot Net provider underneath it. That's that's just that's reality. How 478 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:52,400 Microsoft, Yah, that's a reality, and that's how Microsoft decided to build 479 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,880 it because otherwise it would never get anywhere. So they're using existing groundwork of 480 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,280 all the ad dot net providers that are out there, and on top of 481 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:07,000 that, you can build a provider for your database system. Right. And 482 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:16,440 probably all know that the provider for a sequel server was System Data sequel Client, 483 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:21,360 right, Yeah, and in dot neet framework, and it was actually 484 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,320 also parts of it reported to dotnet core very early in the dot neet core 485 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,559 time frame. But now Microsoft has actually open sourced all that and they have 486 00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:40,400 created as as stand alone repository for the Microsoft client driver of a sequel server 487 00:40:40,519 --> 00:40:45,639 and as your sequel and it's called Microsoft Data Sequel Client, right. And 488 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:52,320 also I actually also contribute to that project. Nice, but so so that's 489 00:40:52,360 --> 00:41:00,280 also a very interesting development. The problem with that project is that it's it's 490 00:41:00,519 --> 00:41:07,519 it's like a two headed beast. It's a it has a dot net corep 491 00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:13,079 dot dot net brands, it has dot Net versions of all the classes, 492 00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:17,199 and it has dot neet Framework versions of multiple classes, and they're trying to 493 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,239 merge those two. But it's basically like a two headed beast, and it's 494 00:41:22,679 --> 00:41:28,880 the dot net framework codebase of course, is like, yes, you can 495 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,559 see Scott got three is a signature in there somewhere or whatever. It's like 496 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:40,719 two thousand and something one or whatever or before that. Even of course the 497 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,280 dot net core codebase is newer, but just because dot neet core is newer. 498 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:52,320 But then it's also a little bit quirky because they had to not create, 499 00:41:52,519 --> 00:41:55,800 not add a lot of features for the first iterations of that dot neet 500 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:01,239 core because it just just just didn't have each a parody with dot net framework 501 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:07,519 at that point. And now they're trying to move them back. So so 502 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,719 it's it's it's really part of the performance. Of course, also hintes on 503 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:21,119 the performance of that driver, right, and it's it's a quirky code base, 504 00:42:21,679 --> 00:42:24,800 and I contribute to it myself, and the team is really good, 505 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:29,360 and they're making a big effort, but I mean, it is what it 506 00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:32,800 is, and they can't they can't just rip it away and start over. 507 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,280 So so what is happening now, which I think is extremely interesting, is 508 00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:44,800 that the of Court team, i assume, in collaboration with some people from 509 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:52,599 the sequel team, is actually creating a new provider completely from scratch, using 510 00:42:52,360 --> 00:43:02,559 all the new fangled low memory APIs like spans and so your educational APIs for 511 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,920 reading stuff directly from the wire and so on. Well, so it'll I 512 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:12,360 imagine it'll surface as a lightweight provider with a limited set of functionality. It 513 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,239 will surface as a definitely surface as a lightweight provider. And I don't think 514 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:22,599 the intention is to ever support all the sequel ball copies, sequel dependency. 515 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:28,920 You have all these kind of classes that have emerged one by one in the 516 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,880 classic sequal client, and that will not be part of it. Sure, 517 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:37,760 but no, but that it's no different than parts of the original dot and 518 00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:43,679 framework never made it decre because they were too dependent on isacic filters or Windows 519 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,599 specific stuff, Windows registry stuff like that. So yeah, but it came 520 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:52,920 later in additional packages and things you could add on. But I could also 521 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,519 imagine once this thing is shipped, you'll use it where you can and where 522 00:43:57,599 --> 00:44:00,199 you must use the original one. You will no reason not to use both. 523 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,119 You've got a chunk of code depending on bulk copy, or use the 524 00:44:04,159 --> 00:44:07,760 old one if you don't care about performance, you're using bulk copy, yep. 525 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:14,039 But for the lightweight you know, scaly nobody does massive millions of bulk 526 00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:16,880 copy operations. They do a few it'll be the min client thing, yeah 527 00:44:17,039 --> 00:44:20,920 yeah, or maybe they will just do it from the command line or something 528 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:23,519 like that. Yeah, not necessarily in something that's just running all the time, 529 00:44:23,679 --> 00:44:27,920 like that time when we moved all our data from our sequel server to 530 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,559 Adgure. Remember that we were in New Zealand. Yeah, I remember that 531 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,880 and it went so well it did, yeah kind of. So, speaking 532 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,800 of performance, I want to know your thoughts on Dapper, the open source 533 00:44:38,159 --> 00:44:44,679 RM and dapper contrive, which is another library that adds linked to Dapper. 534 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:49,719 So Dapper is a lightweight wrapper around adeo dot net and this is Dapper, 535 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,239 not dap R correct, right, And it's fast and people when it came 536 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,719 out, we're saying it, you know, it's faster than and the framework. 537 00:45:00,159 --> 00:45:02,280 And it was for a while, and then when the new Entity framework 538 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,880 came out, people were telling me that the performance was on par with Dapper. 539 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,199 I haven't tested, of course, but that's what they were saying. 540 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:14,159 So what do you think about it? I think it really served a purpose 541 00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:20,480 at one point in time where there was people suffering from performance issues with the 542 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,760 in particularly with entitive framework. But I mean also the initial iterations of you, 543 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:30,840 of course certainly had room for improvement. Yeah, that is no longer 544 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:36,559 the case. That's been we talked about with taking power effort that has been 545 00:45:36,639 --> 00:45:39,880 taking place. There's been a lot of work done in that area, and 546 00:45:40,039 --> 00:45:46,679 the queerer performance is definitely on par with Dappa and therefore eighty on that. 547 00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:55,800 Yeah. Yes, Dappa has the ability to serialize any class you have in 548 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,880 your code, so populate any class you have in a code from a secret 549 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:08,559 query and that has not been a feature of ef core until if Core eight, 550 00:46:08,679 --> 00:46:13,880 which is coming later this year, So you can take any class you 551 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,719 have in your code and serialize it. I don't think it supports things advanced 552 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:23,280 things like multiple results sets like Dabba does, and that's probably not coming. 553 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:29,599 So if you have a need for that, like consume multiple sub results, 554 00:46:29,639 --> 00:46:32,599 it's from a start procedure or something. Yeah, then Dabba certainly still has 555 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,199 a place. I'm speaking for myself, but I really like that I don't 556 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:42,280 have to have too many dependencies that does something that's almost the same thing. 557 00:46:42,559 --> 00:46:45,440 Yeah. Right. Also, you're kind of locked in a sequel serve with 558 00:46:45,519 --> 00:46:49,239 Dapper because it's really for sequel, isn't it or does it work with any 559 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,559 ad on that. I think it's supports, No, it's supports in it. 560 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,559 Basically it supports a number of adio providers. Okay, that makes sense 561 00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,320 because it's yeah, no, it's just it's just a rapper over a deep 562 00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:04,159 connection. Acted. Yeah, so it supports any a lot of adio dot 563 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:07,400 net providers, got it. Yeah, but still, yeah, it's nice 564 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:13,159 to know that. I think it gives me great confidence to know that the 565 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,880 stack I'm using can do everything I want to do, right from from raw 566 00:47:19,039 --> 00:47:27,679 sequel mapping stock procedures, mapping random classes in my code to advanced link queries. 567 00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,800 And I appreciate the idea that they've optimized enough of EF that they're now 568 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:37,400 looking at the providers because that's where the winds are going to come exactly, 569 00:47:37,599 --> 00:47:42,079 exactly. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting development that now they can't 570 00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:46,880 really do more because of just how dot networks. You can't you can only 571 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:51,920 do so much. Oh yeah, Stephen's hub has done all the things exactly 572 00:47:52,559 --> 00:47:57,480 the optimization options are diminishing, and written two hundred pages blog posts about it. 573 00:47:57,599 --> 00:48:00,800 So yes, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, if I just you 574 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,679 know, it's one of those blogboards like I just trust you using new code. 575 00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:07,400 Will you not make me read this? Please? It's a complic The 576 00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:12,360 only thing worse it is that long? Is it so complex? Yeah? 577 00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:16,559 Yeah? Yeah? If you ever wanted proof that optimized code is more difficult 578 00:48:16,639 --> 00:48:21,760 to read, right, there's a reason why we use these abstractions like entity 579 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,880 framework and so forth to make data acts as simpler. Yeah, raw calls 580 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:30,159 would be faster, but would you read that code? Right? You don't 581 00:48:30,199 --> 00:48:34,320 want to look at optimized code. It makes you sad? Yeah, you 582 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,559 just want to use it, yeah, exactly, just wanted benefit from it. 583 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,519 I switched up to dot net seven and my stuff was faster. So 584 00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:45,119 speaking of dot at seven, let's say we got some old F six running 585 00:48:45,119 --> 00:48:50,119 on dot framework. We want to move it into dot net seven or even 586 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,920 dot net eight or even done at six. I mean, what is involved 587 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,280 in doing that? Is it? Is it as going to be as painful 588 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,320 as I think? Actually? At one at one point, the ef EF 589 00:49:02,519 --> 00:49:13,039 team created a Dotnet standard two point one version of the EF six Classic, 590 00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:19,159 which means that you can actually run IF six on dot neet core or dot 591 00:49:19,199 --> 00:49:29,800 neet six or seven or eight. Yes, m that codebase that provider is 592 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:37,119 of course Sequel server only, and it also still uses the legacy System Data 593 00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:43,199 Sequel Client. Okay, so it doesn't get all like if there's a new 594 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:46,360 version of Sequel server that requires some client team is they would not be incorporated 595 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:53,480 because that that piece of software is only maintained for top security issues and nothing 596 00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:59,400 else. So it's it's basically like in maintenance mode. Could you use it 597 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,000 as a step in stone, where would you go from there? I published 598 00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:09,119 I have six provider which bridges the gap, so you can take advantage of 599 00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:15,400 this new Microsoft Data Sequence client driver we just spoke about. And it's of 600 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:22,320 course supports all the always encrypted technology that's come recently with the Sequel server. 601 00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:30,400 It supports all the authentication methods, the new authentication methods against as your sequel 602 00:50:30,519 --> 00:50:37,639 like manage Identity, which allows you to create passwordless connections from your app service, 603 00:50:37,679 --> 00:50:43,519 for example, to an assequel database similar to what you were used to 604 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:51,480 on premises with the integrated security and so on. And that is not that's 605 00:50:51,599 --> 00:50:54,679 not very good supported in System Data Sequel Client, but of course it's fully 606 00:50:54,719 --> 00:51:04,000 supported in Microsoft Data Sequence. So I probably an alternative provider that bites a 607 00:51:04,079 --> 00:51:08,639 gap. And I was actually recently just fortunate enough to have a pull request 608 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:16,519 accepted for Entity Framework six that will that will publish what I did as a 609 00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:22,719 as a supported Microsoft provider for that useless Microsoft Data secut client instead of a 610 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:30,039 system data secret, so you get all the benefit of yea like sequel. 611 00:51:30,079 --> 00:51:36,000 Server two thousand and twenty two also introduced a new over the wire protocol that 612 00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:40,000 works better with firewalls called t D said, you can google it and read 613 00:51:40,039 --> 00:51:45,760 about it. But in order to get that support, so it's more better 614 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:50,800 encryption of what happens over the wire, even login process is encrypted. It 615 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,559 wasn't before. So and in order to you get that you need you didn't 616 00:51:55,679 --> 00:52:02,760 need the latest client driver. And my package which is currently published and supported 617 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:10,000 but only by me, not by my UM is a certainly a stepping stone 618 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:15,360 that can help you there. That's very course. So you've got all these 619 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:22,400 extensions and open source tools and products, um, we'll add links to them, 620 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:28,360 of course. But what about somebody who was writing extensions and wants to 621 00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:34,559 get individual studio You have any advice for them? Yes, mass christ follow 622 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,400 follow mass christis and he's a program manager on the Visual Student team and he 623 00:52:38,559 --> 00:52:44,880 has a regular on the show. Yes, and he has published a lot 624 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:52,719 of content about extensibility. Um like he had some like workshops where he like 625 00:52:54,559 --> 00:53:01,519 took you through creating an extension completely from scratch insous studio with serving various purposes, 626 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,400 and a lot of what he did in his basement there was actually ended 627 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:12,960 up being published extensions. So if you if you prefer to do like viewing 628 00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:16,559 stuff on YouTube or similar media, then that's definitely a little way to go. 629 00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,920 And he's really really good at explaining stuff. Yeah, and there is 630 00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:27,639 a library that can also help you because it is a little bit of it 631 00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:30,559 can quickly become a little bit of a black back art. But the mass 632 00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:36,880 Cusson, together with some other clever guys at Microsoft, has created a tool 633 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:42,519 called the Visics Community tool Kit, which is a library that makes it easy 634 00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:49,000 to do things that you would normally do as an extension writer and not having 635 00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:53,599 to find out this is this interface and you have to convert it to this 636 00:53:53,800 --> 00:54:00,159 implementation and then call this and that method and put the h ref and get 637 00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:06,400 a zero non zero quote back from this co operate them. So when all 638 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:12,519 that's is wrapped nicely for you in this library, So doing things like showing 639 00:54:12,599 --> 00:54:17,760 messages in a business studio, addressing the status BA and putting up like yellow 640 00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,559 bars and things like that that you want to do from your extension becomes like 641 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:29,719 basically a one liner using that That library nice. So that's definitely my recommendation 642 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,800 is to the best way to get started with that. Well, this is 643 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:38,519 all Danish mafia stuff, right, Yeah, And what I appreciate about Mads 644 00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:44,000 Christensen is he walks the walk like that. Dude's got a lot of extensions, 645 00:54:44,559 --> 00:54:46,679 Like there's a reason why he can explain it so well, he does 646 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:51,360 the work. He does it. Yeah, I mean, it's just it 647 00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:54,639 must be huge effort for him just to keep all his extensions current. Oh 648 00:54:54,760 --> 00:55:01,039 yeah, that's great. Yeah. Well and his ad file extension essentially that 649 00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:07,039 made it individual studio. Many many of his extension has gradually paved their way 650 00:55:07,119 --> 00:55:12,079 into a visual studio one by one. So it's it's very cool, very 651 00:55:12,119 --> 00:55:14,400 cool. Yeah. So what's next for you, my friend? What are 652 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:20,679 you working on? I'm so the ef Core power Tools, which has about 653 00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:25,599 three hundred thousand installs currently in visual studio, and that of course is yeah, 654 00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:30,440 it wakes me very proud, but it's it's still Windows only. You 655 00:55:30,559 --> 00:55:37,280 need Visual Studio on Windows in order to use it. Recently, I actually 656 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:44,000 somebody said, oh can this run on Arm? It could now that visou 657 00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:47,599 Studio runs on Arm, so yeah, yes, but it's still limited to 658 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:52,519 Windows of course. Yeah. So the next thing I'm working on is is 659 00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:58,800 actually taking that. Um. So, as I said earlier, I'm basing 660 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:05,559 my two ruling on the scaffolding EPI if you wish that that if Core provides. 661 00:56:05,639 --> 00:56:09,920 But I'm adding a lot of additional features, and all those additional features 662 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:15,400 I would like to make them available to other users on other platforms. So 663 00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:21,800 I'm next. For me, it's basically thinking about creating a command line version 664 00:56:22,679 --> 00:56:30,039 of ef core power Tools. Yeah. Um and of course I mean some 665 00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:34,079 people ask me, can I is a googie for this in Visual Studio code. 666 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,360 Well, at least I give the groundwork for somebody to so maybe I 667 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:44,800 don't know anything about the other script or so I couldn't even I wouldn't know 668 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,960 where to start. We will not, but somebody else can then wrap my 669 00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:55,880 command line tool in some some nice configuration googie to show my my configuration file 670 00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,199 in there. So so it will be a big, big stepping stone for 671 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:06,960 me, and then I'm also quite exciting for me because I've never really if 672 00:57:07,079 --> 00:57:10,159 something ran on other platforms that I created, it was by accident, it 673 00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:16,039 was not intentional, so so I'm really looking forward to that. Yeah, 674 00:57:16,159 --> 00:57:19,639 that's great. Well, Eric Jansen's finn to like to have you on the 675 00:57:19,679 --> 00:57:23,239 show and thank you for all your hard work in great to dissemination of this 676 00:57:23,639 --> 00:57:29,760 complex topic. It's it's great, great to talking to you. Thanks for 677 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,440 having me, all right, and we'll talk to you next time on dot 678 00:57:32,599 --> 00:57:59,320 net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced 679 00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:04,960 by Pops Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located 680 00:58:05,039 --> 00:58:08,599 physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at 681 00:58:08,679 --> 00:58:15,800 pwop dot com. Visit our website at dt n et r ocks dot com 682 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:21,079 for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile apps, comments, and access to the 683 00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:24,800 full archives going back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand and 684 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:29,239 two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep us in 685 00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:35,079 business. Now go write some code CNX time Goman