Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your host,
looking forward to this evening. I met Jay, Christopher King, and Lyne
At in Washington, DC at the hearing and a great guy. I'm really
looking forward to our conversation tonight. Just a couple of things, we'll get
this out of the way quickly. Is our blog this week from Charles Lear
is the nineteen ninety three Cosford incident. It's in England and the Ministry of
Defense was involved and all that. So that's a good one. Check that
out on on a website. Audio blogs we always have going out there.
And I want to say quickly something about last week that last week's guests,
Jonathan he will not watch his own interview and will not look at the comments
or anything like that. And I know a lot of people have posted really
nice supporting compliments, comments and compliments, and I do appreciate that a lot
a lot of people realize that the stress he was under and that he just
did not want to tell the story. Thankfully we got through it. He
told added a couple of things, not added them. He said them that
were initially taken out of the original edited out. That things that are out
there, but he was very careful, like he didn't want to add anything
to it, but as if you watch it, you could see how painful
it was. I was surprised to be talking to James Fox a few days
ago, I don't know if three four days ago, and he said that,
oh him, Oh yes, I actually did the interview with Greer and
him together back in the Disclosure project in two thousand and one. I had
no idea James Fox was involved in that back then. And he said that
he believes the story one hundred percent, one hundred and ten percent as he
actually put it, and thought he was the most impressive of everyone that talk
that day. A couple of things. Next week it will be a tribute
to a good friend of the show, and I was lucky enough to get
to meet him and hang out with him for several evenings out in Phoenix.
And unfortunately, Calvin Parker has passed away, and we're going to be dedicating
next week's show to him and also my good friend Lee Spiegel. On the
twenty first, we are doing a show over on UNX in his time slot
Edge of Reality timeslot, which is seven pm Next third, next yes,
next third, not this coming Thursday. But Thursday the twenty first, at
seven pm Eastern, we're going to do a really nice tribute a whole bunch
of us have gotten together, and that will be I will post the links
on this website and it's going to be hosted on Ben he won the lottery.
We had a little lottery whose YouTube channel was going to be on and
Ben Hansen. It'll be on his YouTube channel and I will put links to
that. But I don't have any other way to give information about that other
than if you're on If you're on my newsletter, it'll come out in that
next week, and you can get on that newsletter on my podcast website,
which is podcastufo dot com. So if you'd like to get on that newsletter,
and I can announce next week exactly how to find that show for Lee.
But it should be a good one up. I don't know why that
came out there, but anyway, I'm ready to bring in our guests.
I think I'm good to go again. I met him in Washington, DC.
Great guy, Jay, Christopher King. Welcome to the show. Jay,
Well, thank you so much for having me Martin. It's great to
be here. Yeah, yeah, I think I didn't me. You helped
me in the cafeteria too. I'm trying to remember. It seemed like I
was kind of lost in the cafeteria and you helped me out there. But
anyway, it was you were there. I got there at five forty am,
and you were toward the front of the line. What's right, What
time did you get there? I think I got there. I got there
before Keith Taylor. I got there basically, I got there a little bit
right after Randy. So I think it was around like three thirty or so
that that my friend Jordan and I got to the line. You know,
I think that there there's a lot of like conspiratorial talk about like who got
into the room and things like that, and oh yeah, well I saw
I saw people that were not in line sitting way ahead of me, you
know, yeah, a lot of people. Yeah, it was there.
It was real. They really did get in there. Yeah. There were
there were a few people that that had that that I want name that I
that I recognized very early on had and I think you know this too,
that had actually paid people to sit in line for them, like overnight and
h and a couple of those people were pretty relatively prominent people and so like,
you know, I'm not going to name any names or anything like that,
but some people were treating it like an iPhone release or something like that.
And you know that they had paid somebody to sit there all night and
they did, and they did. And then there were people like you and
I that you know, just got our coffee at an absurdly early hour of
the day and and showed up in our suits. Right. Yeah, well
that was that was a lot of fun. I mean, it was interesting
all the way around the people in line, uh, you know, and
then and then I was the second to last person to get in the room,
and Chris later beside me. He was the last person to get in
the room. So and some people had cut in front of us and I
kind of called them out and that's the only way we got in. But
it was that close. And but I thought it was a you know,
an excellent experience. I wouldn't have traded it for anything. It was great.
Yeah, it was amazing. I mean, it really felt like we
were seeing history in front of our eyes. And there there are various points
during the hearing itself and right after we got into the room and we're sitting
down and for the rest of the day, the rest of my trip there
where I was just kind of like looking at my hand, you know,
practically pinching myself at at all the ground that was covered, you know,
by not just Grush, but also David Faber and Ryan Graves, right,
and how seriously a bipartisan array of politicians were taking these issues, how well
read some of them were about this, given this, you know, you
and I were used to the deep lore and where we've been marinating in the
subject matter for years, and then you see somebody that you're used to seeing
on CNN just kind of pick it up and hit the ground relatively running smoothly.
It was pretty amazing. I thought they had some very good questions,
a lot of them. I agree, Yeah, yeah, they were really
good. It's really funny. I filmed the whole thing. I decided to
because I wasn't prepared to. But I asked the guy if it could take
a picture at the door, and he said, you can do whatever you
want, just don't disturb anyone. So I put my phone on my stick
and I held it up and I filmed the whole thing. And I'm laughing
now because anytime they show like a news clip and they show like David Faber
or anything like that, you see my phone and it's pretty funny. Yeah,
yeah, I've noticed that, and I've got later that day and afterwards,
I was kind of over at Ryan graves shoulder, and so I got
a lot of kind of like highlighted. I got a lot of funny messages
on my phone from people that were like, I see you on my television
and then they there'd be like a red circle around me as if I didn't
know where I was or something like that. But I enjoyed it nonetheless.
I thought it was pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, So let's let's talk
about the euro beginnings and what got you interested in the whole topic to begin
with. Was that an actual situation or did you have some type of interest
ahead of that? Uh, well, I did, I mean to kind
of go in through the via the deep end. I did have my own
experiences pretty early on as a kid, and that definitely informed my approach to
the field in general of ufology and anomalous studies overall. I and it was
confusing for me as a kid and even as a young adult, as I
was approaching things like paranormal stuff versus uthology and things like that because I lived
starting when I was about six years old, I lived in a house that
was what most people would consider haunted. Right there is poulter Geist activity in
the house. There were kind of like strange shadows that you would see every
once in a while, and even apparitions, though poulter Geist activity was definitely
kind of the most common phenomena that I experienced in the home. As well
as my mom, my father, and my younger sister also were there and
you know, had their own take on their own experiences there, and so
I had there was pronounced phenomena right there, and then later on I had
my own experiences with UAP phenomena and what people consider, you know, non
human entities starting when starting not that much later, when I was about ten
years old or so, the hunt and the huntedd house was in Mishiwaka,
Indiana, and then I started having UH. I had interactions with a couple
of beings that people consider grays when I was about nine and a half ten
years old and hanover Indiana. So you know, it's when people will in
years past, you know, there's it's one of the points of negotiation.
That's that can be very tough for an experiencer of of these entities and UAP
phenomena or any other kind of anomal study where you know, for a lot
of people, the question of how did you get into this is a relatively
easy one, right but not. But for some folks experiencers, it gets
you into this tough terrain because it's part of you know, for years,
in through my twenties and thirties, is I would just kind of get around
the point, you know what I mean. I didn't want to talk about
why I was interested in this stuff. You know, somebody asked go ahead.
As I've said on this show before, you know, this was you
know, the whole experience or thing with you know, people you know claiming
abductions what they call now, or experiencers who I don't know if they called
experiences, but anyway, whatever it is. Uh. At first, when
I started the show in twenty eleven, I remember thinking, oh, I'm
gonna completely stay away from that topic. And because it was a hard pill
to swallow. And I think you know, anyone that's new looking into the
UFO world, if they start seeing something about this type of situation, you
know, they may run away thinking, oh, you know, that's just
too much. I can't I can't handle that, you know, if that
if there any part of it is true or anything like that, or you
know, what's wrong with people or what you know, you hear these things.
So it's really I have to say that after talking to a number of
people over the years, I think that there is definitely something going on.
And I've always had questions like, Okay, so if you know, why
is this person getting visits over and over again? And I just heard a
wonderful interview. I've been trying to reach him for a number of years.
Is Jack a whiner from or winner? The right pronunciation German is whiner?
But he's one of the brothers and the alec Ash inc In Maine that was
taken and you know, he basically said he felt like he was tagged for
life after they had that one abduction. And he's an amazing person to listen
to. I've been trying to get him on the show for for a long
time. But anyway, so that's kind of it is interesting that these experiences
seem to happen over and over again to these people. And uh, anyway,
I'm talking too much, so you can go ahead and can tell you.
But I know, I appreciate what you're saying, and I and I
understand that viewpoint, you know, and I think that there's that that was
that was definitely a predominant viewpoint for many years and still is to a degree.
You know, this idea that that you know, something like this,
a UAP encounter, an encounter with some other being or some other form of
intelligence, is like getting hit struck by lightning, right or something like that,
where it could really only happen once, and the odds are so unbelievably
you know, rare that how could it possibly be happening again? And at
the same time, we have, you know, thousands and thousands of reports
of people repeating, you know, repeatedly getting getting kind of taken, almost
as if there was some biological program or something like that. And now,
I, personally, I don't presume to know exactly what's going on here.
I don't have any kind of grand design for where these beings come from.
I don't have any particular you know, I don't I don't ascribe it to
anything particularly malevolent or benevolent, you know, I kind of try to take
the twenty thousand foot view in general of all anomalous phenomena, and if anything,
for myself, if I really look at the range of modalities, right,
and I really in talking to experiencers, I recognize how many of them
feel burdened by just the problem of saying like, oh, yeah, you
know, I had a UAP encounter and then I know it seems weird,
but I heard something or I had a precognitive dream or things like this,
and these are really common, you know, phenomena that people have been reporting
for decades, sometimes millennia, and and you know, there's this common problem
that people like like Jeff Kreipe will talk about where you know, the UFO
people don't want to be seen too close to the ghost people, and they
don't want to be seen too close to the CRYPTI people, or they will
be people because everybody's afraid of losing credibility. But in fact, there does
seem to be a lot more overlap, especially in terms of like the people
that are actually seeing this stuff or experiencing this stuff, you know. And
so I think that you know, we if we can take a step back
and just choose not to kind of edit out the stuff that's inconvenient to deal
with, we might have a better picture moving forward. I agree totally with
that. And I actually had a you know. I mean, I I've
had a poulter Geist. There's no other thing that I can think to call
it experience, and I know that it really happened. I saw it with
my own eyes, and I've talked about it a few times. I'm not
going to get into it right now, but I have talked about I've had
but for years after it happened, I said, no one will ever believe
that happened. You know, it's just absolutely crazy. So I know there's
this is what I know. I know that we know very little, you
know, and I think that we know a very small amount of what is
going on around us at all times, and we just you know, in
our spectrum and all our senses and even equipment, all the equipment senses can't
even get everything that's going on. So I do believe there's a lot of
mysteries to be solved. Here's here's a question right after the bat sure from
Mary Grace, Uh, does Jay feel he was tagged from the time he
lived in the haunted house? She actually grew up in won two from ages
three to seven. Well, that's an interesting question, thanks, Mary Grace.
You know, I I think that there are some interesting theories along those
lines, some interesting hypotheses. You know, people like Gary Nolan have been
doing a lot of studies on the brains of experiencers and looking right the ways
that that that that the caudate and the cadate nucleus and other areas might be
affected, either affected by the incidents themselves or common characteristics that that seemed to
be happening among some experiencers at the very least, and using experiencer in a
broadway, right, not just UAP experiencers, but people that have had animalst
experiences of kind of a wide variety right now. You know, for me,
there's one hypothesis along those lines that does does tend to make some sense,
which is that you know, what I do see is that a lot
of people when they've had an animals experience that that is a little bit frightening,
you know, that has some some shock to it as a youngster,
that those people often tend to have more experiences overall later in life. And
nobody knows exactly why that might be, but you know, from from directing
the experience or group myself. I talk to thousands of experiencers, and you
know, I do see common characteristics among some folks. And one thing that
I do see is that maybe not necessarily tagged, but I'm reminded a little
bit of like if somebody grows up in like Florida, right, or if
somebody somebody grows up in an environment where there are more predators, be they
alligators, do they snakes in the grass? Whatever you're looking at? You
know, those those people that grow up in environments like that tend to kind
of like have a slightly different, uh kind of evolution of their peripheral vision,
you know what I mean. They get used to taking advantage of their
peripheral vision and looking for signs and things like that. Right Whereas like whereas
like I grew up in Ohio, I grew up in Indiana, I'm not
looking around for you know, snakes, or I'm not used to like looking
around at the water for disturbances when I'm walking, you know, near a
pond or a river or something like that. But other people that I know
absolutely are right, And so I do wonder if there because we're in such
a period of development as as as youth. And you know, I,
for example, had I kind of took all of this in in a way
that I wasn't super frightened by the Poultergeist activity in some ways because I didn't
quite know that it wasn't supposed to exist, if that makes sense, Because
at that kind of an age, at like six seven years old, whatever
happens to you is what happens to you, and kind of everything that you
experience is kind of like for the first time. You might go to a
wedding for the first time at that age, you might go to a funeral,
you might have you know, you go to school, you go to
kindergarten for the first time. And so I was just kind of taking it
all in, and I do wonder, you know, if if there's a
situation like what Mary Grace was saying, where you're not necessarily tagged, but
you're still learning and developing as a kid, and so you start to if
there's something that's scary that's in your environment, or something shocking, or something
that isn't kind of like the edge periphery that you recognize you might need to
pay attention to for some reason, whether your brain kind of develops in that
direction in terms of like an extended sense perception as somebody like Kay Randall May
or other people might think, does that make sense? Very very good?
So there was another question that came up here, someone wants you to elaborate
just a little bit and if you don't mind, you know, just a
little short, you know, idea of what your experience was. And I
think she means the Poultergeist type of situation. Did you see like objects move
things like that? You could you know, yeah, well, I mean,
okay, so the first experience that happened in that haunted house, for
example, was it was actually I didn't experience the very first thing. It
was my mom and my and my father, and that we moved into the
house on kind of the first day. A bunch of my dad's old kind
of book boxes and maybe some of my mom's book boxes got taken down to
the basement. They were they were loaded in last into the moving truck,
and they were kind of bracing our mattresses right, which is a pretty common
strategy when you're moving. So the books, the heavy book boxes came out
on hand hand trucks and got lowered down into the basement. So there are
these big pillars of heavy book boxes stacked up, you know, as pillars
in the basement. The next morning, my mom goes downstairs into the basement
and she sees that those pillars of heavy boxes had been rearranged in like a
checkerboard pattern over the course of the basement floor, right, and she freaked
out. She knew that my dad. She had woken up with my dad.
My dad hadn't gone down there yet. They they talked about it a
bit, according to my mom, and we're talking to each other saying,
like, you know, did somebody did somebody else have keys to the house
as somebody trying to mess with us, you know, something along those lines.
And then later that day, my mom reported kind of going out into
the backyard via the back door off of the kitchen, and she was only
out for a brief amount of time. She came back in. Nobody else
had gone in or out, And when she came back in, the oven
was turned the oven and stove was turned all the way up full blast,
and the and the oven door was open, and she just sees, she
exclaimed, she said that at that moment she just had this kind of like
cognitive flip in a way, and that and that she immediately kind of flipped
over and said to nobody and whatever that was. At the same time he
stopped that this is my house now, you can't do that, all right,
And so that was that was her first experience there. And then for
me, I think I don't remember her kind of talking that out to me
back then. However, I do remember that there was a fair amount of
culture geist phenomena in that. Like I would be, say, sitting at
the coffee table in front of the TV, and I would have like a
cereal bowl in front of me, right, and I'd be watching TV,
and the cereal bowl would kind of zip over about a foot or something like
that without without anybody touching it. My mom would would, she recalled much
later for some reason, she doesn't understand why, even she kind of blocked
it out for a while. That choosed to reach for her car keys on
the kitchen counter and they would kind of like jump out from under her hand
as she was reaching for them. Right, So situations like that would happen.
I would I'd wake up in the middle of the night and like my
toys would be kind of like out in the middle of the floor, there'd
be all there'd be other moments where like you'd hear like a knock in the
wall, in the wall, not on the wall, but in the wall,
and then somehow there would be a knock and it would take your attention
over here, and then when you look back, some objects would have been
rearranged where you were just looking, which was like a pretty That was actually
the thing that was kind of most scary to me in a way that when
I saw something being kind of like seemingly instantaneously reordered without any kind of sound
or without seeing anything, that was pretty freaky to me in a lot of
ways. And and some of that phenomena could happen in pretty elaborate at ways,
pretty much instantaneously, which I still don't really understand how that's entirely possible.
Yeah, Yeah, Like like I say, it's uh, there's so
many, Uh, there's so many things that happen that we that have an
answer. There is an answer for them, we just don't know what it
is. That's right. So here's another question here what experiencers Jay has talked
to. I'm thinking, I understand, do you feel like these people are
legit that you speak with a lot of them. Well, well, I
think it's probably important to mention that I co founded a group called the Experiencer
Group. It's online at at people can find it by searching the Experiencer Group,
or it's at www dot four Experiencers four experiencers dot com, and it's
a it's a private member's site, and it's pay what you wish. People
can pay absolutely nothing if they'd like to. Dedicated to support curiosity and community
for people who've lived through anomalous events of any and all kinds. So it's
not just you ap or haunting experience here, as we're talking about people that
have had out of body experiences, near death experiences, precognition. It's a
wide range because what we've noticed over time is that people that experience one modality
like we were just talking about often go on to experience something else later on.
So through that I co founded that with a guy named Stuart Davis and
was kristin Blackburn. During the kind of lockdown period of the pandemic we've been
working on Kristen and I a series of confidential meetup groups for experiencers that were
some of them were kind of more oriented towards meetup group stuff by Zoom,
and some were definitely more in the vein of kind of like a support group
situation for people that had had more traumatic experiences with the phenomenon. And we
just basically what it came came from is that Kristen and I at the time,
we were both working as assistants behind the scenes on the members site for
the historian Richard Dolan right for his Richard Dolan members site, and so we
were both kind of filtering in a lot of mail. We were looking at
a lot of inboxes. Richard was just getting flooded with mail, like to
anywhere on the site where you could submit anything, and he was overwhelmed.
And so one of the things that we were doing on the back end is
that there were generalized inboxes towards the site, and we were looking at just
dozens and dozens of cases of people writing in talking about their experiences and it's
not and it wasn't, and we just recognized that, you know, Kristen
had had her own experiences, I'd had my own experiences, and we recognized
I we both did, that there was no place really for this kind of
information to go. In a lot of ways, and there were no there
was not really a great place in many ways for a lot of experiences to
talk to each other, you know, there there were limited resources. There
are a couple of places like Opus or zero and things like that, but
we recognized that having like a private environment for people to talk with each other
was important. So through that work, I recognized that that almost all of
the I mean, like the vast majority of the experiencers that I've ever talked
to in that kind of situation are very legit. Because one thing is is
that I've seen that very few fraudsters, if you want to put it that
way, want to go into an environment where they're talking to a bunch of
legitic experiencers. It doesn't really happen, you know. And so there's that,
and then there's also the aspect where in general, I'm talking to experiencers
in private, I'm talking to them through the private site, or I'm talking
to them in my direct messages and things like this. And for the most
part, people that join the experiencer group are people that can't really talk about
this stuff online elsewhere, or they don't care to. That's often because that's
often because they have jobs where this would be a huge liability. So I'm
talking about people. There are lawyers, people that are doctors, people that
are involved in electrical engineering and software design, people that have designed objects that
we all carry around in our pockets. And they have the kinds of jobs
where they where they need to be taken seriously. Right. And and in
some of these situations, people work in a situation where this topic really can't
come up. You know, I know one one person that has a very
high position and an international insurance company. You can imagine why they don't want
to talk about their experiences online elsewhere. Right. And so often when I
when I hear from those kinds of people, when I and I hear similar
stories, right, I hear from these high functioning people that have that have
spent a lot of time, you know, on their careers, and it
usually these experiences were something that they had to work through, that they had
to process, and they had to integrate in their lives before they were able
to kind of reapproach, you know, their careers. And sometimes they had
to do it despite they had to do those careers in spite of what had
happened with them, right, And you know this this common situation where somebody
has to get up in the morning and put on their pants and go to
work even though something that wild has happened very recently in their life. You
know, though, when you hear from those specific people talking about those specific
issues, it becomes crystal clear how legitimate they are. Well, you know
when I've said this on the show a number of times, and like,
I can't imagine having some of the experiences that I've heard people talk about,
for instance, being taken on a craft and examined or whatever and have absolutely
no control, can't move or whatever, and have no control when they're coming
back. I can't imagine functioning in life. I can't imagine putting the pants
on and going to work. I would just all I can imagine is being
huddled in a corner and whimpering. You know. So, I, you
know, if these things are really happening, I have to say, you
know, my hats off to those people that can take it, because I
don't know how. I don't know how I mean, And for me,
I think one of the hardest things would be is that I want people to
know about it, but who the hell would believe me? You know?
Yeah? Is that the type of thing that you hear or yeah, I
hear about that often. And I mean one of the things is that,
you know, there has been a lot that's helped in terms of normalizing these
conversations and destigmatizing these conversations. You know Leslie, Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal
and Helene Cooper's original twenty seventeen article on the front page of the New York
Times, that whole series of articles. You know, everybody in the field
knows that how much that did in terms of us reaching a new chapter in
terms of legitimacy and in terms of normalizing these conversations in the public eye,
but also in terms of like how we can talk to each other and how
other people, like in our family groups and our friends approach us right.
And and I see that continuing. I see that continuing with situations like this
house UAP hearing that you and I were both at right because I I have
seen since then people coming into Zoom meetings for me having private conversations with people
where they say, oh, you know, like it's so and so I
work with them or or my mom or this person they saw that they saw
in the news, the house UAP hearing happening, and then they approached me
because you know, I was always I was always the one that they looked
at a little weird. And then I got to have this conversation, you
know, and it kind of opened something up. And I think that you
know, from from you and for a lot of people in the audience today,
you know, listening to this even in the future, even you don't
have to necessarily have had your own experiences to be able to appreciate the legitimizing
effect that that stuff can have within our family groups and within our relationships,
you know, because so many of us, you know, they we look
like these we've we get used to growing up looking like these weird hobbyists that
have these strange interests. And then you know, as we get older,
it's like, oh, you know, you have more people turning around and
saying, oh, gosh, I guess you're onto something. I guess you're
right, how about that? Right? Yeah, I had I've had a
little bit of that. When it comes to the UFL thing, A lot
of people like saying, oh, yeah, well, hey, the government's
actually looking at this up. I asked that people when they want to ask
questions to put in caps, but this one right here, thank you.
I wanted to post this question because I understand it. What have these people
done that led to this happening? And that is probably just a big question
mark, right. I don't think it's anything that people have done, but
what is your opinion? I'm not sure in terms of if we're talking about
I'm taking that to me and this person was referring to to case like contact
cases reductions or in deductions or something like that. That yeah, okay,
so along those lines, I'm not sure. I don't know exactly what that
person has done or what they could have done differently. You know, a
lot of people have this kind of like have a bit of survivor guilt in
some ways related to these experiences, thinking like you know, like I went
through this, but like why me? Like what could have you know,
remorse or some kind of shame associated with it with thinking like, you know,
what could I have done differently, and not just not wanting to talk
to somebody else about it, but just having a lot of body shame in
relation to not having control of one's body or being taken against their will.
You know, there's a lot of body shame that can be associated with that,
and which I completely understand, you know, one very personally. I
think that one thing in the situation like this that people could understand, you
know, one aspect that that goes back and I find interesting and somewhat troubling
is that people going back to Bud Hopkins, John Mack and others pointed out
that this often happened in family lineages, and so there are often situations where
somebody would have an experience and it would turn out that their mother or their
uncle or aunts or even a grandparent had had a similar experience and it may
have had slightly different characteristics where the person processed it differently. And you know,
some people I've heard stories where some people say like, oh, I
got visited by orbs of light, you know, in the middle of the
night, and I didn't understand what they were and I blacked out. And
then they would hear from a mother or a grandparent saying like, I was
visited by angels and they looked like, you know, balls of light or
something like that. And so, you know, people have their own perceptual
filters, they have their own cultural filters that they put over these things.
And you know, and I'm not saying that you know, one is definitely
one or one's definitely the other. We have a broad range of of these,
you know, phenomena that people seem to be that people are definitely encountering,
and I guess the one thing that that seems to be a commonality among
some is that, you know, we have to be doing a little bit
more in terms of what my old friends Stewart Davis used to call and probably
still does, the genealogy of the strange, which is taking a thorough accounting
if we can when we can in terms of like looking at our family groups
and thinking like who else in my family has this been happening to? Like
who can I talk to in my family? Does anybody else have any hints?
Or does anybody else have any stories that kind of follow these lines,
because you know, when we kind of map out those webs, we might
find nodes and data points that might not just you know, paint a more
thorough a picture of the family unit that might make somebody feel more included,
less alienated, no pun intended, but it might you know, it also
might be an occasion where where somebody can use that in a way to be
able to normalize these conversations among their loved ones as well. M about that.
Well, you know, I think it's it is interesting. I've talked
to a couple of times about this, you know, as far as family
members me being interested in UFOs and my other family members they could care less.
I had a step sister that was actually in chat for a while here
Heidi, who is us? You know? But my it's so funny though,
whenever I talk about this to my sister, and I know I'm getting
totally off topic, but it just made me think of it is that you
know, it was like, uh, oh, what's for dinner? You
know, I would show her the most profound thing or whatever, like the
r L School interviews or something like that. Sure, oh that's you know,
what are we what are we doing next? You know, this is
just abs totally no interest in it, which is fine, you know,
everyone has their own thing. But but I do appreciate her husband, who
has worked at Los Alamos Labs for years, who's a scientist, and he
has a very open mind to the fact that you know, we could be
visiting. So yeah, it could it could be you know, you know,
I mean I love that that as someone in science has that And uh,
this is an interesting question because I've never even pondered it myself. Why
it wants to know, have your I ever heard of someone being abducted with
their pets, dogs, et cetera. I've an interesting well, I it's
interesting. On the experiencing group, we actually have like a like a sub
forum specifically for It's called I think animals and Anomalies, right, and uh,
and it's specifically for cases where people have had, uh, you know,
they noticed their their their loved animals, their pets, having an experience
with them. And that's usually not in the case of something like an abduction
experience. We're usually talking about something that is more along the lines of an
apparition or something that's more along the lines of what people processes as like spectral
or you know whatever that is, right, a ghost or some other kind
of presence. And you know, I try to resist using terms like that
because I don't really know what a ghost is. You know, I've I've
I've I've known, you know, I was around apparitions when I was young,
you know, but I still don't know whether that was like somebody that
died and came back, you know, I just don't. I don't know
what it is. I don't know where they come. I don't I you
know, could it it just be some other type of intelligence that lives in
some kind of other realm and you know, tries to pass themselves off here.
I don't know who knows. We don't know, right that's a answer?
Is anything else right there? Yeah? Thank you? And I appreciate
the fact this this is uh, this just adds to your credibility to have
that and I always thank you. Want to run away from someone that says
they know what's going on, you know when it comes to this stuff,
you know, because I certainly don't. And it's what keeps me going is
the curiosity of it. You know what it could possibly be. It's fascinating.
I agree with you absolutely. I think the smartest people that we've had
in this field. You know that people like like Leslie and people like Jacques
Valet or John Keel or say like Diana Basualica. You could you could listen
names all all darn day, and most most of those brightest names in the
field, you know, they they go through their whole careers and recognize often
how much they don't know, you know, I think that that's one common
character stick. You know. I remember that famous line of Jacques Lais where
he was like, I'm the only upologist that don't know, that doesn't know
what's going on, you know, and and I love and I love that
line. You know, I'm paraphrasing a bit, but sorry, Jacques,
But like, I think that that's a fantastic line, you know, and
I think that it's appropriate. Yeah, I do think it's appropriate. Getting
back to what you said there a few minutes ago before I went off on
my little tangent about my sister. The lines, the family lines, you
know, and I know this is just speculation, but why do you Oh
my god, I can't believe it. Bobby's just posted the exact question I'm
going to ask you. That was a good timing, Bobby, So do
you have any speculation why they may follow family lineages? That's just almost exactly
what I was gonna I'm going to ask you. Yeah, I again,
like I I I don't know. I'm not sure. And I've heard a
lot of different hypotheses, you know, I've I've heard about, you know,
people the idea that that some of these beings might be tinkering around with
with genetic lines, that they might be monitoring DNA or genetic lines in some
way, shape or form, that they might be looking at how certain certain
adjustments or or certain you know, processes, and one body might move on
to the next. And the reality is that I just I just don't know.
I don't know why. And I I think it's possible that that there's
that there are folks out there that that have exactly the right answer for why
that is. But I'm certainly not one of them. I think that,
you know, just because I experienced something myself doesn't mean that I feel like
I have a mastery of the situation, you know what I mean? Like
I use I use a computer. I use this computer every single day,
and and I if I had to fix it, I wouldn't know the first
thing on how to do it, you know what I mean? Yeah,
And so I I'm old enough to know how how little I know in a
lot of ways, I think. So I'm sorry if that's not if that's
not a helpful answer. But all I know. All I know is that
that it does happen, you know, and that I think that it's important
for people to recognize that that you know, people like you're talking about people
are often okay with these these flying objects, but they're used to they're okay
with UFOs if they're like way off in the distance, right, if they're
way up in the sky and you can and if you get a cool telescope
and you can look at them, or you got one of those psionics like
infrared cams or something like that, you've got a fun piece of gear and
you can take a look at it, and then that's you know, there's
something that's between you and this object. Then that then oh, then okay,
then I feel comfortable then in school, right, And I'm kinded of
how George Knapp used to say, you know, oh yeah, I'd love
to see a sasquatch. I'd love to see a sasquatch from about a hundred
yards away with a coffee cup in my hand and a nice big plate glass
window between the two of us, you know, And I get that,
I absolutely get that, you know, I understand why, why why people
think that way. And then at the same time, it's we have too
many cases. There are just we have so many cases where people see,
you know, what people have euphemistically called occupants or pilots or UFO knots or
non human entities, aliens, grays, however you want to put it.
And I'm not prescribing anything on all of them. And it seems to be
a wide range that people report in terms of what some of these beings might
look like. But there, you know, there it. I'm sure that
some of these craft are are kind of like drones or probably don't have anybodies
in them at all. And then there's all these other cases. And you
know, people like John Keel even fifty years ago, over fifty years ago,
was railing about the kinds of ufologists that edited out in convenient details in
the reports. And you know, he spent of like half of Operation Trojan
Horse talking about the kinds of people that only wanted to edit in what was
what made sense to them in terms of the phenomena. But I believe that
we absolutely can't do that any longer. We can't afford to be editing out
and trying to edit the story to suit our needs or to suit our desires.
Right, if we're actually looking for answers, if we're really we really
need to ask bigger questions, and we need and we need to resist the
idea of throwing stuff in the trash can just because it doesn't make sense,
right, that's right, that's right. You know, I've spoken with a
class swad of Switzerland. He's a leading you follow just there and I'm sorry
of Sweden. And yeah, he's a great, great guy. He's a
very nice guy. And so I've talked to him. I said, now,
what about people experiences or abductions or whatever? What's that like in there?
And he said, you know, because he's always every day getting you
know, UFOs and you know reports and things. And he said, uh,
one, I said one. And maybe, you know, maybe it's
in the society where they they things maybe happening, and people don't want to
talk about it. There's the maybe no support and I'm the but the one
that he did talk about sounded very, very credible. It was a police
officer and his wife was taken away and the police office is she was raised
off the bed and all this stuff. Uh and you know, and he
really thinks there was definitely something going on. They the couple later got divorced,
and he talked to the copy years later and he said, yeah,
that really that was obs that really happened. You know. So what I'm
getting at though, why so much in the United States? Now, I
know it's speculation I'm asking you to do, but it seems like there's a
lot going on here. There's certainly a lot of people that claim to have
something happening here. Yeah, I think that. I think that why the
United States is there are a couple of issues there. First, within the
Experiencer group, I get a lot of accounts from people that are elsewhere.
We have members that are from Indonesia, we have members from Japan, we
have members from all over the EU, the UK, South America. I
think one thing that's important to recognize is that we still even though technology is
so advanced now, and it's getting more advanced every day. I just I've
saw just earlier today a close to live translation device where somebody could just use
a webcam and with only a slight delay could like live translate their own something
that approximated their own voice into other languages, you know, for others.
And so we're getting closer and closer every day, but we should still recognize
that that there are a lot of reports that we're not hearing because we are
listening to English reports right and so I'm reminded, you know, you might
know Georgio Piacenza and some of the other folks that have been an icer and
things like that, that there are tons and tons of reports coming from South
America all the time, you know, and and they and there's been a
bias, like James Fox talked about with in Moments of Contact, in terms
of like this kind of like almost some would call it like a classist kind
of bias against you know, rural people, whether they're in the United States
or whether there's someplace like Brazil or whatever, you know, where where their
their accounts aren't aren't being listened to, or people might not be listened to
just because they speak a different language than somebody else. And part of that
is just not hearing about the reports in general. Right, So I think
that there's there's absolutely a situation that way, because we hear from cases like
the Aerial School case in nineteen ninety four, right, And I know that
you are really love that case. I love that case. Yeah, yeah,
And I know you and I both have a common friend, Randy.
You know, Randall Nickerson did an amazing job with that film. He's an
incredible human being that I talked too often, and you know, people like
him will point out that the aerial case is not is not is by no
means the only case that happens in that area. You know, Africa is
there. I mean it's a huge continent and there. We still need more
researchers that are looking into this from kind of more anthropological or even a more
kind of uh or or or even closer mindset, right, we need we
need so many more researchers from so many different areas, because I think it's
not a situation where cases are only happening in the United States. I think
it's a situation where, you know, ufology needs to grow from just being
a bunch of kind of English speaking men talking to each other. And I
think we need more a lot more women. I think we need a lot
more more people of all backgrounds from everywhere to really approach this issue from as
many different angles, and that we can't even necessarily anticipate, right, right,
So, I can't believe how fast this hour has been going by.
Uh do you can you give out your you know, I will put your
for the person listening or watching. I'll put down in the text below and
YouTube et cetera. So if you could say that website and and you say
that people can join, they don't have to donate, they can if they
want to. And it sounds like you are offering a really good service here.
I'd like to, you know, make sure people know where that is,
so that'll be in the show notes. And what's sure if you want
to just put it out there, sure. Yeah. Again, it's the
Experiencer Group and it's at four experiencers dot com or you can just Google up
the Experiencer group. And again it's for people that have had animals experiences of
any and all kinds. And there's just three questions that we ask so that
we make sure that we don't have any trolls or bots in the community.
Yeah, and then and then it usually takes maybe about five to seven days
to process because we do one batch of applicants per week. And then folks
can walk around. We've got support groups, we've got book clubs, we've
got a dream study group, we have current events, Ask Me Anything sessions,
all sorts of different situations, all sorts of excuses for experiencers to get
together, compare notes, and find community. So thanks for having me on
the show. Thanks so much, I really appreciate it, and now I'm
sure we'll stay in touch, all right, wonderful, thank you, all
right everyone, so remember that next week is the Tribute to Calvin Parker with
Irena Scott and Philip Naniel. Thank you so much and remember to keep your
eyes to the sky. As soon as I can find the file right here,