Snapped is intended for mature audiences. This episode contains mentions of homophobia. Please
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Snaps the podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Let's start the ship
show. When I was eighteen years old, I became an Alpha FI sister
at the University of Maryland. Three years after disappiliating from the Chat and three
days before graduating college, I released the first season of Snapped, a tell
all podcast series about my sorority experience. Since the release of season one,
I've interviewed forty current or former Greek Life members, including some Greek Life adjacent
individuals. These are their stories. I'm Lucy Taylor, your host and favorite
excommunicated sister. This is Snapped Snapped. The first half of this episode will
be by interview with James. James has been sprinkled in throughout the season,
but you've never fully met him. It was the first social we had had
with the objectively bottom sorority at our school and you should have seen the uproar
Blake, I remember the president sending me down and they're like, you have
to do our favorite theme because if you don't, brothers won't come. What's
the favorite theme, Margaritaville. Yep, it's James, the fraternity social chair
from the University of Maryland. In the second half of this episode, we'll
be hearing from speakers that we've met throughout the season and find out if slash
how they disaffiliated. Please enjoy the Snapped season three finale Snapped James dms me
on Instagram. Right after the Snap season one finale, a few months later,
we did a socially distanced in person interview in a college park backyard.
It was one of my first interviews of the season. November twenty twenty,
Peak COVID. This was the first semester of James's senior year, and he
was still in the fraternity at the time of this interview. I'm in Greek
life. I'm still in Greek Life. I've always wanted to disaffiliate, and
I've always been too afraid to disaffiliate just because of like how I viewed fraternities
and why I joined a fraternity, And now I felt like it was too
late, and I like still kind of wish I disaffiliated, but like just
because of like I'm a senior, like all the social pressures, like and
especially during COVID, like making new friends during COVID. Like, but I'm
also like living in one of the fraternity housing, which would also just make
that so much harder, like trying to find a new place trying to say
you're living in fraternity housing. Yeah, well because I'm an out of state
student. Yeah that is the kick. Because I joined Greek life for housing
and I am an out of state student. I don't have high school friends.
I can just bank on, like I came here nobody, Like my
parents, like they definitely have some conservative ideologies and they would never let me
live with a woman. So like it's just been like easier because like it's
always been hard for me to make guy friends. So I was like,
oh, i'll join a fraternity, I'll have guy roommates, I'll have guy
friends. It'll be easy into community, instant community. For the freshman listeners
out there, no one tells you how hard first semester freshman year is socially,
and like, I had no friends, like, absolutely zero friends.
I rushed by myself and I show up to meet the Greek's drunk. I
remember going table to table introducing myself to every guy using my straight voice,
Like I was like, they can't know, Like I don't want my sexual
orientation to be a defining factor on whether or not I get a bid,
so like, obviously, as most gay guys do, I talk like this
around the straight guys just because I don't trust them. And then it's interesting,
Actually, there was a person in one of the chapters that I like
almost joined that was telling me that my chapter that I did join is homophobic
and like has a history of homophobia. And I was like, okay,
cool, Like I put it at the back of my mind. And then
when I came out to them and they'd still accepted me as like and gave
me a bit, I was like, oh, I'm different, I'm cooler,
I'm better, I fit in better with the Straits. And then I
ended up joining them because they had a house and I was like, awesome
place to live. They had a really cool party house, and I was
like, as a freshman, you're like, oh my god, like these
parties are gonna be like this all four years, Like it's gonna be so
less. So the first thing that we did after we got initiated, we
were sitting in my pledge brother's room. We had all been under the influence,
and we went into our fraternities like different groups, and we scrolled all
the way up to the time we had started rushing, read through everything until
the time we had joined, just because we wanted to see what they were
saying about us. And so the first thing I saw was a Facebook post
that was like, Hey, this kid is gay. If you say anything
that goes against his lifestyle, you're gonna be kicked out, no questions asked.
This is your one and only warning. And I was like, Okay,
wordings that great, but thought is there? Thought is there? But
like LOKI and microaggression, Yeah, lifestyle choice. I don't know how I
feel about that one, right, But I was appreciative that even an effort
was made. So I saw that, and then I saw like and then
everyone was like, oh my gosh, like I love this kid, like
he's so cool, like the girls all love him, like he needs to
be social chair. And I was like, yeah, like I'm gonna be
social chair, like they love me, like I'm gonna change shit, like
I'm gonna be the best social chair ever like blah blah blah, you know,
like a freshman. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be
different. I'm gonna be the gay guy that becomes a frat star, like
world better watch out, Like I'm gonna take Greek like by storm, like
they're not ready for me. And then my big had told me that there
was a member of my fraternity that voted no on me because I'm gay.
And he was telling me that the kid that voted no was saying, yeah,
like I've never met a gay guy before. I don't know of how
comfortable I feel being in a fraternity with a gay guy. I don't think
we should give him a bid. I don't know how he's going to react
to our chapter's culture. And like I ended up talking it out with that
kid and like having a really nice and meaningful conversation about like our differences,
I guess at the end of the day. And I remember sitting there afterwards
being like, Okay, I had this conversation. I can do it again.
I'm more than happy to do it again. Like this is gonna be
fine. I'm gonna be fine. When I first joined, I didn't want
to be treated any differently. I was like, I am just like you.
I just hook up with guys. I don't like feel like you need
to walk on eggshells around me, don't like feel like you have to change
your vocabulary around me, Like I'm not gonna flirt with you, like,
just treat me the same. And I definitely like it had so much internalized
homophobia of like I need to be okay with being called the like the gay
aff for it. I need to be okay with guys being like that's so
gay and calling each other queer or saying that's aids and things like that just
like around me all the time. And I was like, well, I
don't want to be treated any differently, and so I'm just gonna put up
a thing. Then we started moving in to like election season, so like
fraternity elections. I don't know why, but for everyone involved, it's the
biggest deal. So do you guys vote, yeah, oh oh, we
vote? Where do you vote on our chapterhouse? What do you get?
Each get a paper? No? We like they make a special group chat
for everyone in the room, and each position like has their own Google form
and it's like a multiple choice, like who do you vote for for president?
And it's like John or Kevin? And like I ran for social chair.
It was the only position I ran for. Thankfully I won her not
so thankfully, but I won, And in that moment, I was so
happy. Frat star on the Rise, on the Rise on the Rise gave
man on executive board of a quote unquote homophobic fraternity. I could not stopped.
No, you could not tell me that anything was gonna go wrong,
And then my term started. How social chair works is that you're in charge
of making the entire calendar. So like any social you have so twice a
week, sometimes three times a week. I would have to set up everything.
So if we had a bar tab, I had to call the bar,
give them the money, hand out the wristbands, check id's and then
I always had to go because I was social Chairs, so I'd always have
to get there fifteen minutes early and leave a half hour after it ended.
I would coordinate with the fraternity treasurer and get cash for the party. I
would go to the same liquor store. I'm not gonna say which one,
because I wasn't twenty one. When I was social chair, I'd borrow someone's
car, drive to the liquor store, buy the alcohol, come back,
set up the whole party, leave, get ready. Text every single social
chair being like, we have a post game tonight. Here's the address.
Tell your chapter. Can't wait to see you guys there. I'm like,
God, it's gonna be so fun. And then like I would text the
sorority we were socialing with, like, oh my god, tonight it's going
to be a blast, like I can't wait. There's a clear double standard
for how straight men and gay men are treated in Greek life. A good
easy example of this is talking about hookups. So I'm expected to sit and
listen help set my guy friends up, and they get mad at me when
I don't. Like when I was social chair, people will get mad at
me because they were like, oh, Jake's not setting us up with his
girlfriends. Someone told me to my face, I fucking hate you because you
take all the hot girls for yourself. How do I react to that?
I'm like, I'm sorry that my friends find you creepy. Like so they
expect me to one set them up to hear about their hookups. But the
second I talk about anyone I've hooked up with, like they leave the room.
Oh nope, I don't want to hear it. Like that's gross,
it's been uncomfortable. There's definitely also an element of tokenism when it's beneficial.
So what do I mean by that we want a gay guy a social chair?
Like a lot of other gay guys in fraternities that I know have been
social chair at one point. Obviously, I'm not saying that all IFC social
chairs are gay, and I'm not saying that all gay guys in fraternities want
to be social chair. It's just sometimes that's how the cookie crumbles because of
like how can we use this guy for our benefit? That's a lot of
the fraternity culture anyway. Though. It's like how like if we're gonna bid
this kid, like what is he gonna give to us? My job as
the token gay is to be fun, be everyone's best friend. They like
when I play up the gay so the girls, because that means the girls
want to come back. They have this chapter has the fun gay guy and
so at post games like everyone's always because like everyone's kind of done by that
point. They're like, Okay, we've been in a hot, sweaty basement
for two hours. Like I want to be in a hot, spiddy basement
anymore. But so many guys are like, get in the basement, go
dance, Like our group chat will blow up, like there's so many girls
here and there is see no brothers, Like how could you? Like we
are just like there's like six of us standing with our dicks in our hands.
Go downstairs like and then like I remember there was a time like we're
like my guy friends were like, oh why do we even bid? He
has ugly friends? Like his friends are ugly, and so my semester is
social chair. Every week there was a different complaint, Oh why did we
have this bottom tier sorority? How could you? Like? How could I
And I'm like I'm like, have you looked in the mirror. We're not
taught here, Like if you expect the prettiest sorority on campus to talk to
us. You can't have this double standard of Oh, I expect the prettiest
girls to talk to me, but I'm not going to talk to the bottom
tier girls. Let's recap. The frat wanted James as the social chair because
all the girls loved him. Then they were mad that he was hogging all
the hot girls to himself. Then they were mad because all of his girlfriends
were ugly, but then they were mad that he wasn't setting them up with
any of his ugly friends. I'm just not really sure how James was supposed
to win here. James is about to tell an important story, but first
let's provide some context. There was this one sorority that we had socialed with
pretty frequently the year before, and for whatever reason, now we don't like
them. The sorority James's chapter no longer liked was considered a bottom tier chapter.
However, they were scheduled to have a social with James's frat. In
classic fashion, the fraternity chapter members through a temper tantrum, and desperate to
meet his chapter's demands, James canceled the social on the day that the social
was supposed to take place. James went to a sorority philanthropy event. You
know, one of those food ones like mac and fees, zader tats kappadillas,
you know the one. I remember this vividly. I was at a
sorority philanthropy event and most of their philanthropy, Like most sorority philanthropy events that
I go to, I like the food ones, Like I always pregame those
really hard, because it's fun to just like go like when you're like really
under the influence and just chow and so like I'm feeling it. I'm definitely
not sober, but I'm not like incoherent. And I get a text from
a different sorority social chair, Okay, do you guys want to have something
tonight? And I was like, oh, like, we just canceled on
a different sorority. Let me double check. And so I put in the
executive board chat like the social chair blah blah blah, reach out to me
about a social what do you guys think? And then someone said, oh,
ask the members of the sale house. And then I thought about it
and I didn't ask the members of the sali house. I then was like,
wait a minute, this is a bad idea. I'm gonna tell them,
no, we canceled on a sorority. It's gonna be a bad look
because if we canceled on a sorority and then have a social with another one,
it's gonna look like we canceled for someone else, and it's just gonna
be drama. And these girls that we canceled on, like they're still my
friends, and I have to deal with the social repercussions of that. And
I remember getting texts. I got text like, you run social chair like
a Nazi regime. You're so selfish. Pretty girls actually want to talk to
us, and you say no so you can social with your ugly friends.
I was told I was the worst social chair of all time. I was
said that like they were in the wrong for having a gay social chair.
They knew that a gay social chair would be like that, they wouldn't have
done it. And I was told to kill myself by like a ton of
different people. The group chat was freaking out. They were like, why
would you like not schedule social with the higher tier sorority after we canceled on
one with the lord tier, Like you're stupid, kill yourself, or like
go disaffiliate but also I was getting like all of these messages while under the
influence at a sorority philanthropy event. So I'm like with my friends, like
crying, freaking out, like eating my I'm also by myself, like I'm
like buy myself in the sense that I'm the only person from my organization there
and I went to the event by myself. Like obviously I had friends working
the event, but they're working the event. They're not there to like key
key and hang out with me, like they're there to you know, you
get some already into their philanthropy. But yeah, So I'm getting all these
texts while I'm there, and I'm just like crying, and I'm just like
I like turn to my friend. I'm like I have to go home,
Like I just have to go home, Like I'm sorry, like I can't
be here anymore, Like I really like thank you for hanging out with me.
Sorry I'm not full and sorry, I'm like freaking out, Like so
I went home, Like I just went back to my house. Uh,
definitely cried, and I actually started packing up. I was just gonna leave.
I wasn't gonna tell anyone where I was going. I had like texted
a few friends. I was like, hey, this is happening. I'm
probably gonna disaffiliate. Can I just like spend a few days on your couch
until I find a place to live, like because I can't live in this
house. And then one of my closer friends in the fraternity actually saw me
packing everything up, and like him and the vice president who I was pretty
close with, they like sat me down in my room like I cried it
out. They were like, don't disaffiliate, like we love you, Like
it's not that deep, It's gonna be okay, don't disaffiliate. And I
was like and like for me, like, I've never been someone to quit,
like no matter how much like it takes on me, Like I hate
being like a quitter. And for whatever reason, in that moment, if
I felt that if I disaffiliated, I was quitting. And I had gone
through pledging, I had been social chair, I had been on exactly like
I was on so many different leadership positions. I was like, if I
disaffiliate, now I'm quitting. Like, because they always say like Greek life
is what you put into it. They always tell you that like Greek life
is if you put in a lot, you'll get a lot out of it,
and I put in a ton financially, emotionally, physically, Like if
I disaffiliate right now, I'm quitting. Like, what message does that sign?
Snapped? This episode is presented by Olive and June. When I'm anxious,
I pick my nails, So you can imagine that when I was disaffiliating,
I had no nails left to pick. A lot of my problems stopped
once I left Sorority world, but I still had this nail problem to deal
with. Enter Olive and June. As y'all know by now, Olive and
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now I'm never going to go to the salon again because I have my own
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foot file comes from the Olive and June petty system as well as the postse,
which is the carrying case that doubles as a foot stand. So now
when I need to fidget out my anxious energy, I kick my foot up
on the postse and instead of wrecking my nails, I protect my nails and
give myself the full salon treatment. And I'm really not exaggerating, like I've
got cuticle remover, foot serum, a buffer cuticle pusher. The other day,
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I didn't unpack that one bag. It stayed packed, And like that was
a really hard and weird realization to come to that, Like, yeah,
these people care about me, but how much like and why why are they?
Why? Is the first response don't disaffiliate. So one of my very
close friends of the fraternity is like very much into lifting, very like masculine
matcha Masha dude and doesn't know a lot of gay people, doesn't have a
lot of diversity in his friend group anyway. So we were this is so
stupid. We are having an argument over fridge space in our house because they
wanted me to move to the bad fridge. And I was like, no,
I've been here the longest, I pay the most rent. I'm not
moving to the bad fridge. I want the good fridge. Like, give
me the good fridge. Like what? But he goes, okay, fruit
cake and I was like, what did you just call me? And he
was like I said okay fruit cake. And I was like, dude,
do you know that's a homophobic slur? I need to leave right now,
Like I just need to calm down. And so I left. I come
back he's he doesn't apologize, he just goes I didn't know that was offensive,
Like I didn't know it was a slur. A week later, a
different member of the fraternity in the group in our fraternity group chat goes the
other gay kid, not like they used his name, obviously they didn't stay
the gay kid, but the other gay kid in the frat is he a
fruit? And I was like, oh, I don't know about that one
like kind of seems like homophobic that you're like asking if a gay kid is
a fruit, like just coming from like being called a fruit like back in
the day, like for being gay, because that is very much like a
slur and that so I said in the group chat, I'm like, yo,
like I don't know about that one. And then people are like why,
and I'm like, it seems kind of I don't know, homophobic.
And then people just kept going like, well is this person of fruit?
Is this person of fruit? Is this person an apple or an orange?
And then like it just we came into this whole thing and I just kept
going like yo, guys, stop it. And it got to a point
where I left the fraternity group chat, just left it and like it's sad
because like these are my friends, these are my brothers, and it's just
like wow, I really am just like okay with this and like and then
it like it gets to me where I'm like I'm embarrassed, Like these are
the people that I live with, These are the people I like hang out
with on a day to day basis, Like all of my friends are in
Greek life. Like I didn't talk once I joined my chapter I stopped talking
to everybody that wasn't in Greek live. Right around the time I was told
to kill myself. There was three separate instances where a member of a different
fraternity had and like trigger warning, I'm going to be using slurs that like
people had called me faggot, like to my face around me. And the
first instance, I was meeting up with my friends at the bar for happy
hour. My friends had told me they were like, oh, like they
were. They were with another one of their guy friends in a different fraternity
than mine, and I was like okay, like cool, Like I'm gonna
say to meet him, like if he's your friend, like I'm sure he'll
be cool, like whatever. And apparently before I had gotten there, the
guy got very intimidated by another guy coming. So my friends were like,
don't worry, he's gay. That's usually the common response, like even around
boyfriends, don't worry he's gay. I'm like, okay, that's fine,
Like I'm very used to that, like awesome. So I walk in and
he's like, oh, is this the faggot you were talking about? That
was like excuse me, what? And he was like oh, Like they
were saying that they have a gay friend that's coming then say anything. We
all just kind of looked at each other like what, and then we ended
up leaving him. So it was like we ended up like doing our own
thing and we were just like debriefed afterwards, like what just happened. Like
a different day, I was walking to class and I was walking past the
basketball court of a different fraternity, and I just heard like, stop being
such a faggot, like on the basketball court, and I'm like I'm walking
past and I'm like okay. Two and then two days after that had happened,
it's Halloween night. I'm walking into the party as social chair the sorority
we were paired with. I have a ton of friends in it, so
I was like this is great, Like nothing can go wrong. I dressed
up as an angel, I have angel wings, and all of a sudden,
I hear, yo, fuck you fagot, and I like looked around
because I'm like, he did not just say that to me. He did
not just say that to me. Then I heard him again and I'm like
I'm like trying to like I'm literally just like looking around. I'm like,
is there someone behind me? Like this is not to me? This is
not to me, and like I'm in the other fraternity's house too, so
this is not my space. And I heard it a few more times,
like fuck you, fag it, like shut up, fagot, and so
I leave in an utter anger. I texted the IFC president, who's in
charge of every fraternity. There is this board called the IFC Board, and
basically there's like they all have different positions and like they kind of oversee all
of the fraternities to make sure that no one's like causing trouble. They also
like get people in trouble. And so I'd reached out to the IFC president
and was like, Hey, this is who I am. This is what
has happened to me in the past week, the three separate instances of being
called fagot or hearing fagot around me from three different tiers. I don't want
to get anyone in trouble. That's not my goal. I don't even want
to tell you what chapters they are because at the end of the day,
it frankly doesn't matter. It could have been any chapter. But I want
to say something because this is ridiculous, Like y'all can't be saying fagot all
the time, and like if there's like, statistically speaking, there is another
gay person in your chapter, Like if you have a chapter of one hundred
brothers and you don't think a single one of them has some sort of attraction
to men, get your head out of your ass. But the president at
the time, I said, message the Diversity and Inclusion chair text him and
then we'll go from there. Also, I had met with the like I'm
gonna say real adult, the real adult advisor of IFC, because her and
I are BFFs. So I met with them, and I was like,
this is what I want to do. I want to go into the president's
meeting and I want to just go off. I walk into the house of
one of the fraternities that I had heard call me fagot is this top tier
of middle tier, top tier, top tier, top tier. And I
walk into their chapter house. I am greeted by a bunch of men I
don't know. I'm like, I'm here for the president's meeting. They point
me to their chapter room. I walk in and it's the Diversity and Inclusion
staff from DFSL Department of Fraternity and already life adults adults. It's the IFC
board. It's the twenty six chapter presidents and me in their chapter room of
a top tier fraternity that had called me faggot four days prior, and of
course the adult staff of IFC is like, I'm so sorry this happened to
you. This isn't representative of Greek life. I hope you know that we
love and accept you. And so I go up there in front of these
twenty twenty six to twenty eight men that are the leaders of their chapters,
and I'm like, and I recognize people that have like made fun of me
for being gay in the room, in the room, and I'm like,
okay. So I take a deep breath, like my lip is trembling.
Well, we're gonna get through it. So I start to produced myself.
I start saying what had happened to me, and two presidents of different organizations
started talking while I was talking, and I go, hey, I'm here
on my own time. This is important. You need to listen to me.
Stop talking, and like at that moment, I'd started crying and I
say, my name is Blah Blah blah. I am the social chair of
this chapter. You have seen me at the past seven president's meetings, I
nominated someone for Chief Justice who was sitting in this room right now, like
I spoke on his behalf. You all know who I am. I've been
here a lot, so I go into the full details of the story,
and then in my notes I have written down like that word is unacceptable.
It shows me and people like me that I don't belong in Greek life,
which is just not true. I have Preacher's diversity, inclusion and acceptance,
but these three back to back experiences undermines that completely. Statistically speaking, there's
another gay person in your chapter, and they might not be proud of coming
out yet, they might not be ready for that, and when you keep
saying faggot, that just makes it worse for them. And I go into
my rush experience, where my biggest fear was a chapter finding out I was
gay, because I knew they would treat me differently. And I was like,
that's why this word is so unacceptable, Because you might have a gay
rush who is trying their best to hide it because they're scared of being in
this predominantly heterosexual space, toxic masculine space. And when a rush hears that,
that just turns them off, like that's scary. Then they don't want
to join Greek life at all. And if the point is to join Greek
life, we're not doing a good job. And I say, it's not
funny, it's very hurtful. As presidents, please step up because you're the
leaders and your brothers will listen to you. And then people would ask me
like what chapters was it, and I was like, the chapters aren't what
mattered. The actions are. And then I left the Diversity and Inclusion Share
checked in on me said thank you for coming, you know, the president
like the president of like my chapter goes, dude, you did a great
job. Like that was really powerful. I really hope people got like the
message like thank you for sharing. I'm really proud to be your president.
But I know nothing changed, and that's the worst part. Like they always
say, if you put a lot into Greek life, you will get a
lot out of it. And here I am putting in my all. I
am exposing myself. I like thought I was like out here making a difference,
but I'm just playing into the system. And now I'm the token that's
like the system's not broken. Look there's there's him, like he's gay,
he's happy, in his chapter. But obviously, since I'm here, I'm
clearly not like snapped. That was definitely one of the hardest, craziest experiences
in my college life. You're very brave, yeah, but is it bravery
or stupidity? Like at the end of the day, like I joined the
systems from bravery, and I don't think it's your fault that you joined the
system. But and it's it's not your fault that like the system and the
people and it like gaslight you into thinking it's you and it's the them problem.
Right, Like people always say, oh, Greek life just isn't for
them, Yeah, isn't for me. Greek clip isn't for you? But
who the how is Greek life? Four? Life? Four? Who is
it? Four? Who is it? Is it? Four? No one
tells you college is hard in college because everyone's like, oh, my life
is perfect. Look at my Instagram, Look at all my really pretty friends,
look at my crazy party life. Like I'm thriving, but no one
is ever going to post on their Instagram. Yep. Another days locked in.
I locked myself in my room because I couldn't handle my roommates and I
just needed a break from them. So I just pretended like I wasn't home
all day. No one's going to post on their Instagram story. Everyone in
Greek life just treats it so deeply that everything matters so much, that this
is the party that's gonna make or break your time in college. This is
the rush that's gonna change our chapter. That this We're gonna have the best
pledge class ever ever, and these lights are gonna be the coolest. We're
gonna be the best, and people are gonna love us. And to anyone
considering joining Greek life, nothing's ever that deep. It's never that deep anyone
ever, Right, Like, it just doesn't matter that some things are that
deep. No, some things are some things are hypercent, but Greek life
switches. It's the things that are that deep aren't that deep? And the
gaslight you and then the things that aren't that deep are that deep? Right
right? Like me a social chair getting Keystone beer instead of Natty light was
one of the biggest fucking issues, but me being told to kill myself was
dismissed. So just remember that if you joined Greek life, you gotta think
who are you joining it for? Are you joining it so you can show
off to your the people you knew from high school to show it off same
same. I was like, well, I'm not from here, so I
was like, wow, look at me. I went to a different state.
Yeah, I'm in a fraternity. I have all these friends. Look
at how cool my life is. Frat star on the rise on my Instagram.
But in real life I never felt like any of that. So who
do I joined Greek Life for me or for the likes. It was to
show all these people I grew up with that I'm better than them, that
I've moved on, and it wasn't worth it. Like to the people that
are in Greek Life and are too scared to disaffiliate one, I feel you
it happens, I've been too scared to disaffiliate. I probably won't disaffiliate for
the fact of the matter, Like I'm probably just gonna stick it out and
just like that, because like I'm gonna be like, like, it's just
gonna have to happen. But I put it in so much into Greek Life,
and what I got out of it was worse mental health and death threats.
I'm sorry. That was supposed to be a joke, Like that was
supposed to be funny, like yeah, yeah, and that's all I have
to say. Snapped, what a roller coaster of an interview. I mean,
it was genuinely so hard cutting down because James and I were outside in
that backyard talking for like three hours, and then we had a follow up
interview because surprise, surprise, shit got worse. Yeah, So, Snappers,
if you want to listen to James's full interview and his follow up,
which I highly recommend, you can become a patron at patreon dot com slash
Snapped at the ged level. This is the level you'll find all the other
full interviews that I released from this season of Snapped. I just posted the
full interview with Tyler, our anonymous frat brother. If you want to learn
more about fraternity world, here's a preview. Is there ever an instance in
jay Board where you guys say, let's take this to IFC or let's take
this to an advisor. So one thing, there's like sort of another way
we do it. It's called superboard. And so when j Board thinks that
something is very serious and like, it's basically like we're going to put them
on membership review, which basically means like we think that you might not be
your brother anymore. That goes to Superboard, which is all of the executive
board plus all of the judicial board. Okay again, that's Patreon dot com
slash snapped. I think it's time I leave my saborrity. My disaffiliation song
is just stuck in my head these days. And while Snap the Musical isn't
coming out just yet, you can get the next best thing on SeatGeek.
SeatGeek has tickets to sports, games, concerts, shows including My personal Favorite
and the muse of the disaffiliation song Wicked the musical. So next time you're
buying tickets to an event, use SeatGeek to buy your tickets because with codes
snapped you'll get twenty dollars off your first order, and it's an amazing way
to support the pod. That's code snapped for twenty dollars off your first order
with SeatGeek snapped. James never disaffiliated, but that doesn't mean that he never
started the disaffiliation process. In our favorite book, Terror, Love and Brainwashing,
Alexandra Stein states that, as with entering a group, exiting is a
process rather than a single act. There may be many steps and many false
starts. Stein also highlights that many followers never leave the groups because of the
powerful situational forces that play and the lack of available resources and pathways to exit.
Like, disaffiliating is such a process. It starts with a thought,
then you got to say it out loud. Then you need to think how
you're going to execute this, Like how are you going to tell your pledge
class? What are you going to tell your big You might need to set
it in a statement. What's your statement? You might need to meet with
exec you might need to meet with an alumni. You don't know what you're
actually going to need to do versus what they tell you to do. But
it's a whole thing regardless. You all know Kirsten, a former Zeta sister
from cal State Long Beach, a VPA one, which is what I was
as like a traditional vice president. They would tell me that I was dragging
the organization down to my level. My roommate a president. She had to
sign off on the paperwork to like send me to judicial and she did it
without thinking. Twice in my interview with Kirsten, she gave me a look
inside her disaffiliating process. I didn't want to be a part of it and
I was like trying to trick people into thinking that I liked it, and
I didn't. I knew in the back of my head, I'm like,
I can't stay here. And I was trying to plot ways to like become
an alumni but without like dropping because in VT, I like it's either you're
active or you're fucking quit. And then finally, at the end of that
semester, my term as VP was over, and I just told myself,
I'm like, maybe things will get better, like as a general chapter,
remember I have less responsibility, Like, maybe people won't hate me as much.
I was a deaf study as major and I was sitting in ASL class
not paying attention. I just kept playing with the idea. I was like,
maybe I could like graduate early or like put in my intent to graduate
because that's all you needed to get my status. And I can trick people
into thinking that I'm graduating and it'll be fine, and like people won't shun
me. In Terror Love and Brainwashing, Stein explains that those who leave cultic
groups can be shunned on exit. Stein goes on to say that shunning is
for the unsupportive, while those who remain friendly can stay on the periphery,
helping in various ways. These are called peripheral members. Stein explains that these
are non compliant or non productive group followers that won't be allowed in the inner
core, but will be encouraged to remain in the periphery. Many groups have
peripheral members who are still technically part of the group as long as they provide
some resources and remain uncritical. Not all followers need to be controlled entirely,
as long as they contribute in some way. Pang dues Stein notes that they
may be living largely into pendant lives but are still providing a degree of support
and are being shut off from recovery. So going early alum for example,
or being one of those members that are just not involved at all, you
know, I just go to the parties. I would consider these to be
pro freeal members. So in Kirsten's case, it seems like she was plotting
ways to become a pro freel member, but it was too late because she
was already part of the inner core. But the more I thought about it,
I'm like, I don't want to be a part of an organization where
people like fucking hate me. I kept up a secret for a while I
called my best friend in the sorority and I was like, hey, I'm
leaving, Like I hope we can still be friends. And she's like,
yeah, like we can still be friends. Like you understand, Like it's
not going to be the same anymore. Right. We didn't have anything to
talk about anymore, like when you're in a sorority, like that's your life.
When I disaffiliated, I had genuine hope that I'd stay friends with some
of my former sisters, but yeah, we didn't really have much to talk
about anymore. And I actually went through a huge friendship breakup due to me
leaving, which you heard about in season one. You never get used to
an army of like one hundred, one hundred and twenty girls like hating you,
Like there's parts of campus you can't go to anymore. Yeah. Literally,
I would hide same, I would go on one route. Oh my
god, me too. I did that for a year. It was super,
super healing for me to interview Christine for this season of Snapped. Christine
was my former sorority sister and was my closest friend in Alpha FI. She
was actually the friend that I had the huge friendship breakup with because I was
leaving the sorority and was going to eventually tell title nine about what happened in
the sorority. You've heard different parts of me and Christine's interview throughout the season.
I was vice president of diversity and inclusion. I got basically bitched out
by one of the fraternity members. I think he actually called me like a
diversity nazi. I'm kind of like, is the fact that the theme of
this party filled with basically white people that it's not sinco de mayo? Like,
is that ruining your time? Like I'm so sorry that you're not having
fun right now because you can't appropriate someone's culture. While Christine was upset that
I disaffiliated, she actually ended up disaffiliating a couple of semesters after I did.
As much as I didn't act like it, I absolutely didn't forget what
happened to you, Like that was not like not thought about just because we
weren't talking. I can imagine that it would be weird to see someone who
you're really close with and this a alty disaffiliating really weird, And I remember
I knew that it was going to affect our friendship because you were not leaving
on good terms at all, and I was still part of it. And
at that time I had known that I was going to eventually be moving into
the place you just moved out of, so you know, that cuts out
being able to come over. I think that you had such a hard time
with it just because like that could have been you too, you know,
oh, it easily could have been me, And like there were huge parts
of me that were jealous. Like, for all I know, if I
had never gotten snapped, Lord, I might have been the fucking vice president
of diversity and inclusion. And for all we know, if Christine had gotten
snapped and then moved into the chapter house and you know, the whole fucking
Shenanigan, maybe she would have disaffiliated mid semester. I think, more than
anything at all, really is the system. It motes so much drinking and
so much like social acceptance on the grounds of who you're fucking and like what
frat they're in. You know, it put ideas in my head that weren't
in line with the values that I wanted to have for myself as a person.
And I mean you can say this too, like I was the girl
that completely like denied your sexual soul and like stopped being there for you,
you know, once I had said that it was going to impact, you
know, the brand. Thinking back on that compared to how I see it
all now and like the rape culture of the of the system, it's just
so interesting to think that I would have ever done that to you. It's
like one of those pivotal things in my life where you know, like I
look forward to the day where like my kid comes home and like was wrong,
and I can tell them about a time when I was too, and
like how to deal with being wrong, and how like you should be very
clear that you were you know, like I can't wait to like tell my
kids about this. I love that, Yeah, I love that. Yeah
on record snapped. Let's see what happened with our girl, Kadi Julie.
You've got to be kidding if you don't remember Kadi Julie from the first two
episodes of this season, but I'll give you a flashback. Anyway, someone
would come and check on you on certain days of the week and make sure
you were in your bed, and they would call it bed checks. The
whole going to Appleby's to talk shit. They called that risk management. Kadi
Julie was a former Kappa Delta's sister at the University of Idaho. We knew
there were rules around dating sisters, and we knew what we were was bordering
friends and dating. When Katie Julie was a sophomore, the University of Idaho
removed her major. As a result, she transferred to Western Kentucky University.
The Katies in Kentucky were so different from the Katies in Idaho. They were
top tier. They had the best house on campus, They had one Greek
week like twelve years in a row. They were also like seen as like
the best chapter in the country. When you're in a sorority and you transfer
schools, you're supposed to automatically be accepted into that sorority at the new school.
Supposed to be they said, actually, we're gonna wait and put you
on a probationary status. Like your grades aren't exactly where we want them to
be, you're not a part of any clubs. We're gonna have you sort
of just not join yet and we'll tell you when you can join. And
like it was obvious from the jump that, like my esthetic was not what
this sorority was looking for. It's not what Kappa Delta in Kentucky was about
and multiple exact members had told me, well, maybe you're just not a
but Delta girl, and I like fully was like, I'm going to prove
them wrong. Like I'm gonna play their game as hard as they want me
to play it. I think a lot of people end up playing the game
like James wanted to prove that he could be the frat star. And in
my conversation with Julia from the University of Pittsburgh, she was being pushed out
of the sorority, like through bullying or whatnot, but she told me that
she stayed because she didn't want to let them win. I decided to stick
it out because I wanted to prove I could do it. I didn't want
them to win, and I wanted to stick around and piss people off too,
and I kinda do. I was like, Okay, watch me,
I'm gonna stay and I'm gonna come to every party and I'm gonna get drunk
and I'm gonna smoke weed. Bye. I'm gonna get drunk and I'm gonna
smoke weed bye. Can I make them my ring down? This is how
Katie Julie stuck it out as a top tier Kappa Delta. So I was
being billed due even though I wasn't fully involved, and that during that year,
I wasn't allowed to attend meetings, I wasn't allowed to attend parties or
any social events, and I wasn't allowed to attend any Philan three events.
I was allowed to wear letters, but they were like, you won't have
any of the updated letters. You'll only have letters that you have, and
I'm like, okay, so all of my letters look completely different and say
Idaho on them, and you all have Kentucky letters and I don't even have
any of those. And so they would be like, hey, Julie,
I know you're not part of the sorority and we know you didn't get any
of this memo, but we'll give you a homecoming sweatshirt if you pomp for
us from eight pm to four am. And I was so desperate to be
included, I said sure, and so I pomp. I like folded little
pieces of paper from eight pm to four am one day just to get like
a sweatshirt that said I was like part of the Kentucky Katies. Then twenty
twenty happened and we all got sent home and a bunch of girls dropped,
and so Katie was desperate for people, and so I was invited back,
but I was like so desperate still that I was like, fine, I'll
do it, like I'll be a part of it. I want to be
top tier, Like that sounds amazing. So I took it, and they
still continued to put me in like a position where I wasn't a full sister,
like I didn't have a big And then I asked, I was like,
hey, is there any way I can take a little. I'd love
to take a little, And they're like, no, not right now.
You're not ready. You haven't done the training. You're not ready. And
I was like, okay, I guess I'll just do the training when it's
available next And then two days before Big Little, they said, hey,
Julie, we had a girl that didn't like the person she was assigned to
have was her little. Do you want this girl? And the girl that
they offered me was a plus size woman. They took anyone that was like
willing during virtual recruitment, and now the other sisters were like, I don't
want to be her big and like somebody even told me. They're like,
we're so thankful that you took her on as a little and like for big
Little, everyone was like, just so you know, the big little expectations
that you spend two hundred dollars on your little. And so when they had
told me two days before big Little happened, I fully didn't go to class
for two days because I just spent like crafting for my little and getting everything
for my little. But I was desperate to be needed and desperate to be
wanted. Like I have never felt more supported than when I had two days
to get stuff for my little, Because I had women dropping off T shirts
on my door and they were like, do you want to help me paint
canvases? I'd love to paint a canvas for you. Someone like dropped off
fake Air Jordan's at my door and they were like, oh, you're soon
to be little really likes air Jordan's. Do you want to paint these capital
to colors with capital to symbols for her? And we are not the strongest
like big little pair, and so like, really, what being her big
turned out to be was like I bought her a bottle of wine every couple
of months, and then the last sort of straw with my Kentucky experience was
there was a there was a Greek Week event called Spring Sing where all the
sororities op fraternities put on a big show and dance number, which I was
all about and was like, yes, this is so my things. I
like made it past the audition process. I was like trying to like meet
the other girls. It kind of felt like it was starting to be normal.
And in the middle of rehearsal for Spring Sing, my knee gives out
and I find out a year later that I had tore my acl that day.
It was super hard coming to terms with like I had injured myself and
I couldn't participate in Spring Sing anymore. Not only was my experience my soritis
experience in Kentucky complete nutter shit, but like to top it off, that
I was injured from the sorority and there was no way for me to ask
the sorority to compensate because God forbid, I leave my light on in my
room and get find fifty bucks, but I can't find you five hundred bucks
for breaking my knee. And like, even after I broke it, they
still asked me to carry on the set pieces for the show. I didn't
think I was coming back to the university, and so I dropped Pin because
of that. What was it like dropping Pin? I don't even think I
em up. I think I messaged the president in group me and said,
hey, I don't think I'm coming back to the school, so I'm gonna
drop Pin. And she goes, great, can you send a message to
the big group me, like with all the sisters in it? And then
you're done? And I literally sent a message. I was like, hey,
ladies, love you all so much, but I will not be returning
in the fall. I've moved on to my big girl job and I'm so
blessed to have you ladies in my life. Aot heart heart heart Julie.
And then they were like, love you so much like my sister forever.
Yeah. It was one hour of like you're amazing, like we're so happy
to see you thriving, girly, like love you babes, and then like
I got one full hour and then they removed me from the group shot and
I haven't heard anything since. In Terror, Love and Brainwashing, Stein notes
the incults group support is highly conditional. What this means is that you may
be able to get support from a fellow member if that support is required to
further the goals of the group. Stein provides the example that if you get
a flat tire and it might stop the group from completing a task, then
another member might be quick to respond and help you with that flat tire,
because doing so makes them a productive member of the group. However, if
a member gets sick and cannot contribute, they may often be ignored completely.
This makes me think of how all of a sudden Katie. Julie's sisters were
there for support when it came to her little's basket, but when Julie tore
her acl and couldn't participate in spring sing anymore, like sorry about your leg
bye, Snapped by Snapped. If you tuned into our Away Weekend episode,
you'll remember Gemma from George Washington University was a super active member of my sorority
and then I was assaulted by a member of a top tier frat. So
I had to have a conversation with the president about what happened to me,
and the president told me she had to tell the alumni and nationals, and
I asked her to keep my name anonymous, and she did not. Gemma
really wanted to disaffiliate, but of course there's always a catch. For Social
Chair James, the catch was, but I'm living in frat housing. For
Gemma, the catch was, but I'm on EXAC. You hate to see
it. And to be specific, Gemma was the VP of recruitment. You
hate to see it. If you don't understand how high stakes that is in
sorority world, you've got to go listen to the season two recruitment special.
That's all I'm gonna say. I am heavily considering disaffiliated. But when I
talked to Exact about disaffiliating, they essentially told me that first I needed to
step down from my position as VP of Recruitment, and that is all based
on whether or not they find an adequate replacement for me. So they'd have
to interview people and then find someone they liked, and then get it approved
by Exact, and then get it approved by the alumni, and get it
approved by the chapter. So it could take anywhere from a month to two
months, and by that time, recruitment will be right around the corner.
So essentially, the way that I was told about it is like we probably
wouldn't be able to find a replacement, and that's coming from the alums who
decide whether or not they approve a replacement. But then I was like,
now, like, I really don't think I can be here anymore. And
essentially when I asked about just like their general process of disaffiliating, they told
me I needed to have an interview the alums about why I'm disaffiliating and they
would be able to approve or deny it because I'm on exact, So like,
I'm really trapped. It's just like I can't Lucy, like I can't
run a recruitment and make girls. Literally can't. I can't, But for
some reason, I feel like I have an obligation to like continue going on,
especially like being on exact and trying to disaffiliate. They like say things
to you, like but your sisters love you so much. Your sisters voted
for you to be a part of this, and the alums did too,
like we believe in you. Despite the pressure against her, Gemma managed to
disaffiliate and they never made her meet with the alum. The best part about
leaving sorority world is that you no longer need to follow sobrity world rules.
Welcome to the real world. Yeah, do you ever wonder if you're sort
was a cult? Same? I went down a huge rabbit hole trying to
answer this question, and along the way I found Terror Love and Brainwashing by
cult survivor and expert Alexandra Stein. Based on the amount of times I mentioned
the book in this podcast, you already know how eye opening it is.
But I'm just sharing little tidbits and to truly answer the cult question, you
got to hear it from the expert herself. We're partnering with Audible to offer
you a free thirty day Audible trial. This means that for thirty days,
you'll have access to thousands of audiobooks, including Terror Love and Brainwashing. Snapped
has allowed me to share my story and has allowed so many others to now
share theirs. To keep supporting Snapped and storytelling of all kinds, visit Audible
trial dot com slash snapped. That's Audible trial dot com slash snapped snapped.
The response the chapter members give to those who want to disaffiliate seems dependent on
what's convenient for the chapter. You know, it's either we love you,
don't disaffiliate because you're supposed to lead recruitment or you're the token gay in a
homophobic chapter. And then the other classic responses, Greek life isn't for everyone.
That's what I was told. And yeah, I mean I definitely was
not an asset anymore. If anything, I was making people uncomfortable because I
was reacting to the slut shaming and hazing going on. So do you really
think they wanted me talking to p and ms during recruitment. I'll let you
answer that one for yourself. Remember Julia from like ten minutes ago, the
one who said I'm gonna get drunk and I'm gonna smoke weed. Bye.
She was the one that also told us about the classy meter in episode two
of this season, and guess what, snappers, Julia was also told Greek
life isn't for everyone. So I was feeling so ostracized, like the other
women in my pledge class really disliked me. And I went to my big
sister and I knocked on her door and I cried to her, and I
was like, I don't know if I can do this, Like I'm having
horrible time. People are yelling at me, people are teaming up on me,
and I was like, I don't know what to do. And she
said, sororities are hard and they're not for everyone, and I remember feeling
so angry. I was like, aren't you going to defend me? Like,
aren't you gonna speak up for me? It was just, well,
I'm sorry you feel that way, and it was like my fault. I
felt like it was my fault for being ostracized because sororities are hard, which
implies that if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
That's such a non answer when people are like, well, like when I
said to my big I don't know if I fit in, and it was
Greek life not for everyone. Sorority aren't for everyone, Like that's it's a
thought terminating cliche. Yeah, it's a thought terminating cliche. I love that.
It's not a I'm sorry that happened to you. What can I do?
It's not do you want to drop? Like, how can I help
you if you really need to get out? It's not any of that.
It's okay, sorry you feel that way, and it's the worst thing you
can hear when you're really struggling. In her book Cultish, Amanda Montell explains
that thought terminating cliches are catch phrases aimed at halting an argument by discouraging critical
thought. Montell states that cultish leaders often use thought terminating cliches to rationalize someone
leaving, but thought terminating cliches can be observed in everyday life. For example,
it is what it is, boys will be boys. Everything happens for
a reason. These are all thoughts terminating cliches. Montell states that a thought
terminating cliche is a temporary psychological sedative. But I still hold on to a
degree of self blame because I'm like, well, maybe I did something wrong,
like maybe I was a bitch or maybe I was rude, because they
would say I was rude. They always make it so that you're the problem.
Yeah, and a lot of different high control groups do that. It's
never the group's fault, it's always your fault. Snapped, Are you worried
about disaffiliating because you'll have to give away all your merch, like all the
stuff you got in your big little basket. I get it, Snappers,
that ship made up half my wardrobe. But once I left sorority world,
I realized that you don't have to be part of a sorority in order to
have cute merch. This is a public service announcement to throw all your alphadel
to try pie taw Apsilon merch and your snapped tote bag, put on your
Greek Life visit for everyone, crew Neck, and run the fuck out of
the chapter house. Wait what, you don't have a snap toebag or a
Greek Life isn't for everyone? Crew Neck? Well you better head on over
to Snap the podcast dot com and check out our merch for season three.
No dress check here, Snappers. I promise you that I can't believe this
is the last episode of season three and maybe even if snapped. As you
know, we are an independent podcast and it's hard to make this work sustainable.
Buying merch is an incredible way to support this work and stay connected to
the Snappers, regardless of the fate of the show. I remember when I
was still an Alpha fee I would wear my merch to the airport in hopes
that another sister would recognize me and we'd have our little moment of oh my
God. Since then, Alpha Fie International has made it extremely clear that they
do not want me wearing their merch. Hashtag Greek LIFs not for me,
and so that I say, great, great, I've got snapped merch,
and Miley sayres merch, It's really fine. I don't need your merch.
And you better believe I'm wearing my snap merch to the airport, and you
better believe I'm going to find some snappers, because you don't have to be
part of a sorority to be part of a community. We have our own
right here. So with heavy stuff. Ten years later about now, right,
yep. I graduated in twenty twelve, so it's a decade later,
and this stuff still sticks with me, and I still think about it,
and I definitely have dreams sometimes about it, like nightmares where they all kind
of come up and tell me they don't like me. In order to this
day, like I feel like if I was in a room with a lot
of these people, I would feel incredible anxiety. I used to get sorority
nightmares as well, every night for like two months straight. At one point
I had to change my medication because I needed something to change. Kirsten still
gets sobrity nightmares. I still have nightmares about it. I still have panic
attacks about it. And I tried to move on. I literally moved to
the other side of the country and I was like I'm in a different environment,
like it's time for me to like shed my past and just become me
again. But then when they abolished Greek life movement happened, like I realized
that, like the ship wasn't just me, and I realized that like I
can't like I don't care if it gets annoyed with me that I keep talking
about this, like it doesn't deserve to be like shoved in a corner and
just be like, well, those people are stupid. Like they joined the
cold. People could join cold. It doesn't mean that they're not smart at
means that they need to fill avoid in themselves. And that's what I needed
to do. And that's everybody I met in Greek life because they all had
some self esteem issues. I resonate so much with what you said, especially
like talking about it a lot when people when you leave or there's this expectation
that like it's over, but like it's not. At the end of a
lot of interview used the interview would seem relieved and validated, maybe even vindicated.
For a lot of these people, these interviews were the first time that
they were sharing their full Greek life experience. You know, this is like
the first time I'm really, like ever talking about it out loud honestly feels
like a weight, like a little bit having been able to talk to someone
else about it. Yeah, especially outside the story, because I feel like,
oh, a lot of the times you only talk, you only talk
within your sorority or like to maybe the chapters that are on your campus.
But when you talk to someone outside of sorority world, it's the way you're
presenting it is different. Yeah, well, the way they look at you
when you say something you're like, oh, that's not weird. Oh that
is okay, You're right, that is weird. That's actually remembered. Yeah,
it takes sometimes seeing it from someone else's perspective and go, oh that
is very culty or yeah, or yeah, that really is actually against my
own personal values. Why am I doing that? It's just so awesome to
be able to talk about it, because I really haven't talked about my experience
being in a sorority with anybody because the people I knew in college we're all
in sports, so it's not like you can ship to up the process when
everyone else is full balls deep in it, you know what I mean.
Like in terror, love and brainwashing. Stein explains that for cult survivors,
telling the story of their experience is a way to reassert agency and to reclaim
their own ability to interpret that experience. In this reclaiming, survivors move towards
resolution of the disassociation between their felt experience and the official narrative that the group
imposed. So the narrative that's imposed by the group is this was my fault.
Greek life isn't for me. But when you look at it from a
bird's eye view, the fact is this has nothing to do with me.
And that's why we need to talk about it so that we don't blame ourselves.
Like I genuinely think that I don't have sorority nightmares anymore because I was
able to one piece together my own narrative about my experience, and two speak
with so many others about their experiences, and you know, we all just
validated each other along the way. I was like, what is wrong with
me that I can't fit into this mold of the sorority girl? What's wrong
with me? Why am I the one who's being targeted? Why am I
the one who's picked on? And I realized after leaving it's because I have
the loudest voice and I don't sit back. It's because I don't fit their
mold, and that's okay. It's okay for me. I'm not made for
it. And I think I'm gonna say that thanks to you that you gave,
you taught me it's okay. I helped you realize for you helped you.
You still need your own moral compass. You knew it wasn't okay before
I said it. You just needed to be validated. I needed someone to
tell me it was okay to not write like Greek Lives isn't for everyone,
and my god, it's not for me. Greek lives not for me?
What was that breaking point? I was diagnosed with TTSD in January of this
year, and so I was like, I don't care. I don't care
if our shoes match our dresses. I don't I don't care that try Beta
is having a party. I don't care that it's their philanthropy. Weeks stop,
and I'm going to stop surrounding myself with people who aren't making me happy
to be alive anymore. And I listened to your podcast and there was one
girl I don't remember her name was talked about how the girls were broken up
into like society standard of pretty. She's talking about Kirston, who wasn't included
in Zada's professional photo shoot. Kirsten told us the story. In this season
two recruitment special, they put the white and white passing girls and one category
and also like the thin girls that's important too, and then they put bigger
girls and people of color just in a different section. And there was a
photo shoot for the recruitment video. Yea, yeah, Kirsten, yes,
and she told her story and how they spelled out my sororities. Zada letters,
Yeah, this is insane, Like that was my breaking point. I
was like, I can't do this anymore. And that's why we need to
keep speaking up. I'm interested to see if I get any pushback from doing
this, Like technically we're not supposed to talk to media, so I'll let
you know. Yeah for sure, And I can keep you as anonymous as
you want. I think you said your first name. No, I'm totally
okay with you blasting whatever you need to. For me, I can be
completely unanonymous. I totally understand women wanting to stay anonymous, and I support
them in that decision. But I think there's huge power and not being anonymous,
and I'm tired of having to play that game. I'm not doing that
anymore. I'll be loud, and I'm privileged and safe enough in my space
and who I am and with my connections and my loves and my families that
I can burn every sorority bridge down if I need to. If that's what
this takes, I'm okay with that, and I'm okay with them coming at
me like that. I've decided that's just part of the role I'm taking on.
I understand other women aren't okay with that, and I support them for
that, but there's going to need to be front women. There's going to
need to be women who are willing to put their name on it, and
I'm I'm willing to do that, and I'm again, you're willing to do
that, which is huge. It's huge. I think the keeping it anonymous
only helps them, and that's why I've been willing to be so loud.
And I'm happy that there's other women out there like you that are willing to
be loud. And I'm happy that there's other women out there like you that
are willing to be loud. And I think someone said this in another interview,
but with sororities, hate the most is a loud woman. You're not
wrong, that's their enemy. Yeah, that's the archphas being loud and transparent.
They absolutely hate that. Yeah, Snapped, Well, Snappers, We've
spent eight long episodes talking about this CULTI ship, and I think it's almost
time to call this chapter meeting quits. I hope everyone listening, We'll keep
being loud and transparent, rant about what you've learned in this podcast. Since
Greek life is a business, it needs customers to survive, and speaking out
is how we get to those customers. Our voices are our power, especially
when it comes to exposing organizations that need secrecy to survive. Our bravery to
share our stories is our power. And I know it's hitting for so many
the amount of dms I get. They're like saying, oh my god,
every like we all need to make these private thoughts public because we all don't
like it. As for the future of Snapped, no one knows, HBO,
Hulu, Netflix, NPR, wondering next time you want to make Obama
Rushdoc a real big budget expose, no filler ship, hit me up and
we'll bring the house down. Or if a wealthy alone wants to fund a
Snap season four, let's do it. Let's go. But until then,
your girl needs to pay rent, put myself out there in the real world
and observe sebrity world from afar, doing what I can, and rooting for
those still involved to get the fuck out while Snappers until next semester. Snapped.
This just in from Snapped headquarters. We've been ordered to cease and desist.
Are you fucking kidding me? It's from the director of accountability all the
way from Alpha FI International. The demands of the letter read, in a
final effort to remedy this issue short of litigation, Alphahi International Fraternity demands that
you immediately cease speaking out and holding yourself as a member of Alphahi International Fraternity.
Cease utilizing the insignia, prest Greek letters, and other marks of the
fraternity, including use of any insignia or marks spuriously similar to those of the
fraternity. Seize any and all attempts to recruit unofficial members. Blah blave blave
like what no one knows, No one, no sabers. We've all been
wondering when this day would come. I mean, this letter came from the
same leadership who allegedly was sending NDAs to a lumb volunteers after word was getting
out about aphees racist recruitment practices. I found links about that on Greek chat
and Reddit, which are both linked in the episode description if you want to
check it out. But unfortunately for Alpha Fee and all other Greek letter organizations,
the First Amendment exists, and I'm a bit who likes to use it.
Don't let them scare you either. Speaking out factually about these organizations is
a constitutionally protected activity. Just so y'all know, don't let them gas let
you. I almost let them. I almost let them. My production supervisor
had to keep telling me like this is this is not real, this is
not real. But don't worry, snappers. We handled it. I mean,
they were literally trying to send me to standards. But the most amazing
part, and God bless for this part, God bless for this part.
The best part about the real world is that you don't have to go by
sorority World's rules and you don't need to listen to the director of accountability,
even if what they say is on a PDF. As our friend Christine once
said like, oh, I'm smart, so I'm this like, okay,
that doesn't mean you have like any grounds to have authority over me. You're
a nice person, but why are you texting me about meeting with you to
fix my grace? Are you a fucking teacher? Do you have a PhD?
Are you a professor? But because then we can talk, But you're
just a nice girl who want a leadership position. And I go, you
know what, this is the third time you have called me into ta honor
with absolutely no evidence, and at this point it's both. So I'm not
going to deal with it anymore. And next time you call me back,
you better have cold hard truth. I never got called in again. Yeah,
that shit was ridiculous. Snapped for all post production updates. Make sure
you're following at Snaps the podcast on Instagram, and if you want to stay
in the loop with me Lucy, you can follow me at Lucy JT Underscore.
You guys are gonna miss my vocal Fries, so JK all you haters
you hate my vocal fried men have vocal fried to you. I never heard
you talk about that though. For all collaborations inquiries or to book me,
as a speaker. Go to snaps the podcast dot com. Also definitely subscribe
to the podcast itself. I do see some bonus episodes in the future.
I'm thinking of Q and A with the production supervisor of Snapped, Megan Thompson
aka my BFF, would be a wild ride. I'll be taking questions for
the Q and A on Instagram, so make sure you're following if you haven't
already, Please rate Snapped five stars or whatever you want to rate it and
leave a review. I'd love to hear what you thought about this season.
Thank you so much to Megan Thompson for supervising this project. You've answered every
question I've ever asked in my entire life, and it's been nothing less than
an honor. Thank you to Cameron Gore aka Cammy, who was the story
editor of this episode and has been my assistant through it all. Thank you
so much, Cammy, You've helped me more than you now. Thank you
to our audio engineer, Niel Gottlia. You all heard that sound quality.
Thank you so much to the interviewees who participated in this season. Coming together
felt like dare I say it true sisterhood. And last but not least,
thank you to me Lucy Taylor for hosting, editing, producing, and writing
this podcast. I can't believe I finished it. What do I do now?
Anyone hiring? I'm being serious, like, please message me. I'm unemployed.