WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:05.480 Bitcoin ETFs did billions. They've already surpassed. If you just look at like 2 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:08.160 the first month or the first six weeks, you know, we're about week 3 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:11.119 seven. I think if you stack them up on any measurement, they blow 4 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:15.839 everything away. At this point, you could probably find something in there like, 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:20.399 oh, if we look at the first two weeks and we xout GBTC 6 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:26.120 technically and we and adjust for inflation technically, the GLD actually was tied, 7 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:30.480 Like, there are ways to maybe find a spot in the seven weeks where 8 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:35.280 it wasn't earth shattering. But if you go one week, one day, 9 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:39.880 four weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, you look at volume, assets, 10 00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:43.840 flows, post GBTC extra, whatever you want to do, you're going 11 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:54.439 to find they blow away every other new lawn truckor This content is brought to 12 00:00:54.439 --> 00:00:57.799 you by Uphold, which is a great crypto platform that I've been using since 13 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:02.560 twenty eighteen. Uphold has all the top cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin and all the all 14 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:06.079 coins. In fact, they have two hundred and sixty plus cryptocurrencies on their 15 00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:10.599 platform. You can also trade precious metals, stable coins, and thirty seven 16 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:15.000 fiat currencies. In addition, they are available in over one hundred and fifty 17 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:19.799 countries and this platform is fully reserved. They do audits so you can trust 18 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.480 that your funds are safe. No commingling, no lending out your funds. 19 00:01:23.680 --> 00:01:26.439 If you'd like to learn more about Uphold, please visit the link in the 20 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:32.719 description. Welcome back to the Thinking Crypto podcast. You're home for cryptocurrency news 21 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:37.359 and interviews. With me today is Eric Balcunis, who's a senior ETF analyst 22 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:42.439 at Bloomberg. Eric, welcome, good to be with you. Eric. 23 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:47.200 I've followed you and James Seyferd on Twitter of course, or what Elon calls 24 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.599 x now, and I appreciate all the great data you've been putting out there 25 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.799 about the bitcoin ETPs, and we got a lot to talk about. Let's 26 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:56.719 start with your background, where you're from, and what's your professional background. 27 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.959 My background, so, I was trained as a journalist communication at Rutgers. 28 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:07.400 Did that work for Institutional Investor magazine, which is a magazine aimed a pensions 29 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:12.080 and investments, wrote about mutual funds there back in the nineties when they were 30 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:15.719 like the hot thing, and then moved to Bloomberg, which to me was 31 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.759 the krem de la creme of business. Journalism, and they're actually joined the 32 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.120 PR team and did that for a while, which was really good. I 33 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:27.759 get to see a lot of parts of Bloomberg. And after nine to eleven 34 00:02:27.800 --> 00:02:30.080 I moved back to South Jersey and worked in their data office because it was 35 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:37.360 in Princeton, so I just happened to geographically need to work in Jersey and 36 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:39.919 that's all they did. So I'm like a reporter who got dumped into the 37 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:44.520 data group, and at first I hated it. I'm like, this is 38 00:02:45.639 --> 00:02:50.479 awful, especially compared to PR and journalism, which is more exciting. In 39 00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:53.680 journalism. In PR you're a mile wide but an inch deep. But I 40 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.319 like that. I like to move around. I'm a fan of novelty. 41 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:01.360 In data, you're more a mile deep in an inch wide. And it 42 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:07.120 actually was the best thing for me because I got to spend time really working 43 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:10.319 on problems and in the data. I helped build some tools on Bloomberg to 44 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:15.520 track different things, and in two thousand and seven ish I got handed ETFs 45 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:20.719 as a data responsibility and so as a person who tracked mutual funds, I 46 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:25.680 was like, holy moly, these are really an evolutionary marvel. You know. 47 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:29.479 It had to be like what seeing the MP three was like for a 48 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.560 music person. You're like, wait a second, this is going to revolutionize 49 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.560 everything. And it did. And so I dedicated my whole career to it 50 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:39.919 and became like the ETF data guy, and I got recruited by research. 51 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:44.800 So Bloomberg started a research group they did stocks, bonds, and the guy 52 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:51.199 running it saw me doing some like media here and there, and just god 53 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:53.680 was known as the ETF person. He said, why don't you write about 54 00:03:53.680 --> 00:03:54.879 ets for us? And I did, and I've been there eight years. 55 00:03:54.879 --> 00:04:01.479 And so I lead a team for about ten eleven people who do ETF and 56 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.400 a little mutual fund research, and we published on the Bloomberg terminal and obviously 57 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:11.400 that's bitcoin. ETFs is the flavor of the month topic for us right now. 58 00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:14.599 Absolutely. Now, you also wrote two books, right, can you 59 00:04:14.599 --> 00:04:18.959 tell us about that? Yeah? One of those behind me. I shamelessly 60 00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:23.319 promote it because you know, when you're a small publisher, it's not like 61 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:26.439 your stuff's on billboards and stuff. So one of them is called The Bogel 62 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:30.519 Effect, which is about the Vanguard founder Jack Bogel, just the really, 63 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:34.360 in my opinion, the most impactful human being in the investing landscape. If 64 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:38.040 you read the book, you'll see why. But he brought all the fees 65 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:42.560 lower. The reason I bit is twenty basis points or twenty five whatever it 66 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:46.360 is. And the reason those bitcoin ETFs all had that massive fee war, 67 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.360 even though Vanguard wasn't involved, their spirit it was they created what I call 68 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:57.199 the ETF terrodom. And because everyone loves low fees, that's why ETFs are 69 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:00.920 so popular. And you take Vanguard and Bogelo, they are going to be 70 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.319 a lot higher, less growth. They're the core of everything that you see 71 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:10.000 happening, namely low fees and indexing. Anyway, the other book I wrote 72 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:15.199 before that was called The Institutional ETF Toolbox. If you're in crypto and you 73 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:18.519 want to learn just about ETFs, that's a good primer on ETFs tells you 74 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:23.680 mechanics, creation, redemption. I go into all the different asset classes. 75 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:29.839 So this is is a little bit more of a wider look out because ETFs 76 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:31.920 are one chapter in that book. Then I have a whole ETF book. 77 00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:36.160 So I think for a crypto person who's just really curious about learning ETF mechanics, 78 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:41.040 the first book is probably the better one. Again, and I'd be 79 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:45.040 grateful if you were were interested, but you won't be let down. They're 80 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:47.519 good books. I work really hard on them and they basically all my knowledge 81 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:50.199 is in both of them. I will be sure to link those on the 82 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:54.360 website. And then the description of the podcast. Everyone check that out. 83 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.120 Eric, You know you brought up a Vanguard and I want to get your 84 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.279 thoughts given that you know they're degree and how they view the markets. But 85 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:05.959 they've taken the contrarian view on bitcoin. Why do you think they're still on 86 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:12.759 the fence. Yeah, so it's just that's just how they roll. It's 87 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.800 on brand. So Vanguard, let's face it, Bitcoin is a little like 88 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:20.639 a rated R movie for most people. For no normal people like take your 89 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:25.480 parents. If Bitcoin were a movie, you'd be Quentin Tarantino. It would 90 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:30.160 not be Disney. Okay, Vanguard just does Disney. They don't do the 91 00:06:30.199 --> 00:06:33.439 crazy stuff. They don't allow leverg gtfs on their platform. They do allow 92 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:36.959 gold, but they don't like it. They are a meat and potatoes kind 93 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:44.160 of company, family friendly, sixty forty and this in my book on Vogel, 94 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:49.240 I interviewed him many times and I also asked them about bitcoin and he 95 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:54.319 had nothing personal against it, although I do think the spirit of disintermediation is 96 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.800 huge With him and bitcoiners, there's a lot of overlap, which is why 97 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.319 I asked Matt Hogan from Bitwise to write the four to that book, because 98 00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:03.600 he's an ETF guy who works heavily in crypto now, and I thought he 99 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:09.360 could bridge the gap between the old foggy mutual fund world and Bogel and sort 100 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.720 of connect him to the disintermediation movement that bitcoin has, and I think he 101 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:17.600 did a great job. But there Bogel's problem with commodities was that it's only 102 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:21.319 worth what someone will pay for it in the future. Whereas a stock is 103 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:26.399 a company, and a company has people who go there every day, wake 104 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:30.480 up, create value. That value turns into sales, which turns into cash 105 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.160 flow, which turns into dividends to you. So even if the price does 106 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:39.920 nothing and there's no speculation, you get paid. The money works for you. 107 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:44.240 A bond you get a interest rate, a coupon payment, So stocks 108 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:47.560 and bonds the money does work for you, regardless of speculative return. He 109 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.720 argued, commodities are just pure speculative return. There is no underlying thing. 110 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.199 Now bitcoiners will say, well, there are people creating value in bitcoin. 111 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.839 Fine, I'm not I'm not Bogel. I'm just telling you what he would 112 00:07:59.879 --> 00:08:03.240 say and what Vanguard thinks. And I think people inside Vanguard aren't happy about 113 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:07.480 that decision. I think some might be, some might not. I personally 114 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:09.959 think that it's a little nanny statish of them. They should just trust their 115 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:15.240 own investors to make decisions. If you found Vanguard, and you are a 116 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:20.040 Vanguard person, because they don't pay intermediary, so you had to find Vanguard. 117 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:24.399 So if you found Vanguard, you're definitely into low cost and the bogolism. 118 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:26.639 You're probably not gonna be the person who swayed and going to put all 119 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:30.079 their money in bitcoin. That's just not who you are. So there's no 120 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.320 harm, I think. And then putting it on their site, whereas you 121 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.279 could argue like putting big advertisements on Robinhood for the new bitcoin ETFs could be 122 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:41.639 a little risky because people are just going to go crazy there. So I 123 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:45.200 just think they shouldn't have done it. And I do think they'll lighten up 124 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:50.000 over time because they have an advisory service, so they don't only offer funds. 125 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:52.320 They also will advise you on all your money, like you're estate planning 126 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:56.399 your taxes, and if you're an advisor, you kind of need access to 127 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:00.639 everything. So like if your client is like, hey, you want private 128 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.879 equity or bitcoin, you kind of have to get it for them they're going 129 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.720 to leave. So I think their move to become a bigger advisor is going 130 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:09.799 to push them into offering bitcoin at least. If not, they're probably not 131 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:15.399 gonna have a fund. Maybe times change, but for now, I get 132 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:18.480 why they did it. If my metaphor for this, somebody said, oh, 133 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.799 this is their bud Light moment, like this is going to ruin them, 134 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.039 and I'm like, no, because bud Light really crapped on their own 135 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:30.039 bases views. Vanguard did not crap on their bases views. This is more 136 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:37.360 like Walmart not letting the gangster rap albums in the late eighties on the shelf, 137 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:41.519 you know, like Two Live Crew and NWA. These are my favorite 138 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:43.919 albums as a kid because they had the parent advisory label on them, but 139 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:48.559 Walmart wouldn't carry them and it gave them more intrigue. So I actually think 140 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:56.720 Vanguard saying no gave the story another news cycle. It created conflict and attention 141 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.279 and intrigued. So I think, if anything, Bitcoin benefited from that, 142 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.639 but Vanguard certainly wasn't hurt. In my opinion, some of these bitcoiners are 143 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:09.440 like, boycott Vanguard. One of them's like, and I can tell he's 144 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.639 a dot eth guy, and he's like, I just called up Vanguard and 145 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.759 moved all my money. I'm like, there's zero percent chance that actually happened. 146 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:22.480 But but you know, to your point, at some point, you 147 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.399 know, as this asset class continues to grow, it's going to have to 148 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.879 make numbers and sense for them where their CFO or their board is going to 149 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.159 say, hey, we're missing out here. When you go back goes back 150 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.399 to the you know, the business and the economics of running that business. 151 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:39.440 So do you think it's a year or two years out that they make that 152 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.519 switch. Yeah, I would say two or three years now. I'm just 153 00:10:43.519 --> 00:10:48.279 saying they let them trade on the platform. I'm not saying they offer one. 154 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.919 But Vanguard sometimes if they can't find a good product for like as an 155 00:10:54.919 --> 00:11:00.120 advisor, they may start doing themselves because they can do it cheaper. They 156 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:01.039 may go, well, we can do this cheaper. We can use our 157 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.279 mutual ownership structure. To keep bringing. They may just do it themselves, 158 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.039 but I would say that let's go in Stage's first step is just letting it 159 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.799 on the platform, and I do think they'll do that eventually two years. 160 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:16.759 I don't know, we'll see at the rate bitcoinytfs are going. It seems 161 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:22.679 to me that there is going to be some fomo and more and more if 162 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.080 you have their main competitor, black Rock, getting a hit product here and 163 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.799 they're seeing that this is like used as a legit portfolio allocation in the black 164 00:11:33.879 --> 00:11:37.279 Rocks and the fidelities of the world, and it's hell way, it's going 165 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:43.559 to reduce sharp ratio and there's some more adult like you know, rationale as 166 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.399 opposed to just when moon or whatever. If there is more of that, 167 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:50.399 they may go, all right, well it's fine, you know, we'll 168 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:56.720 allow it. But I think they at this time the reputation of bitcoin is 169 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:03.039 degenerates, Sam bankron Fried all kinds of as Gary gamser put it, fraud 170 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.600 and hucksters, and it's a commodity. On top of that, we don't 171 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.440 need it. So I just think black Rock Infidelity are their too biggest competitors. 172 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.639 So if they're in it and they start to like, I don't know, 173 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.720 it might Irk Vanguard also that hey, it's not just Vank or Valkyrie 174 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.519 having success, like they could care less about those companies, But black Rock 175 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:26.679 Infidelity are their two main competitors, and they do care about what they do 176 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.080 absolutely. Now, Eric, you have a plethora of experience around et aps 177 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:37.840 and you've seen other asset classes have ETF's launch. Give us some perspective here. 178 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.000 How does the bigcoin ETF launch compare? Is it an outlier? Dos 179 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:46.200 a standout significantly as it's Is it something you've never seen before in the ETF 180 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:52.320 world? Yeah? No, I look, there's been big launches, and 181 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:58.320 there's been really highly publicized launches. When Gold launched GLD, that was a 182 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.360 big deal, and I'd say that was the only equivalent to this because they're 183 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.360 like, for example, remember you know, Dave Portnoy launched that ETF buzz 184 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:09.840 and he had all the marketing that thing. I think it traded four hundred 185 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.559 million on the first day, which is an insane amount for an indie small 186 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.960 ETF and he really got to give him credit for getting that many people excited. 187 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.519 But like bitcoin ETFs did billions, they've already surpassed. If you just 188 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.879 look at like the first month or the first six weeks, you know, 189 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.919 we're about week seven. I think if you stack them up on any measurement, 190 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.399 they blow everything away. At this point, you could probably find something 191 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.279 in there like, oh, if we look at the first two weeks and 192 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:46.360 we xout GBTC technically and we adjust for inflation technically, GLD actually was tied, 193 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:50.440 Like, there are ways to maybe find a spot in the seven weeks 194 00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:56.519 where it wasn't earth shattering. But if you go one week, one day, 195 00:13:56.799 --> 00:14:00.480 four weeks, six weeks, seven weeks, you look at volume, 196 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:03.919 assets, flows, post GBTC extra, whatever you want to do, you're 197 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.919 going to find they blow away every other new launch record. It's getting to 198 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:11.799 the point now and I just told you that I'm looking at the most ETFs 199 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:16.279 traded. This is out of thirty four hundred. My bit is seventh. 200 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.080 This is you know, this is right up there with spy qqq IWM. 201 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.000 These things have been around for twenty five years. This thing's seven weeks old. 202 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:28.600 I've never seen an ETF go right up to the top ten like that 203 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.559 in this sort of a time. So, and I think GBTC is in 204 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:39.159 the top thirty and fidel Fidelity is thirty eight. I mean, if you 205 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.240 added them together, they'd probably be like the fourth biggest most traded, And 206 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.519 if you're the fourth most traded ETF, it puts you around number eight in 207 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:50.879 terms of all equities. So if you combined all the trading and the bitcoin 208 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:54.879 ETFs, in fact, I'll do that right now, you're looking at something 209 00:14:54.080 --> 00:15:01.360 like, let's say we'll call it trading about as much is apple. Wow, 210 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.799 that's a lot, right, So this is volume, and I get 211 00:15:05.799 --> 00:15:09.799 it. Some coiners are like, oh, you talk about the volume, 212 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.440 but it doesn't necessarily mean the flows are the same. And I get that 213 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.960 only a portion of volume converts into flows, But you have to understand that 214 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:24.120 ETFs are trading vehicles and volume is so important long term, and it's important 215 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:28.879 for bigger fish. If you're an institutions, say you're a hedge fund or 216 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.600 a prop desk, a trading outfit, or a pension plan, and you 217 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.960 want a little crypto bitcoin exposure. You love the fact that you can put 218 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:43.080 on one hundred million dollar trade or a fifty million dollar trade and no one 219 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:48.120 will notice you. That's a big deal. If it doesn't trade a lot 220 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:50.360 there. Then I was like, I don't want to be I don't want 221 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.799 to be half of the assets. I don't want to push the market price. 222 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.639 I don't want a hedge fund to see a big fish coming in and 223 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:00.399 try to gain me. The more volume there is, the more anonymic these 224 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:03.440 big fish can come in without anybody noticing them. They love that, and 225 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:08.519 so they prioritize liquidity over everything else. So the volume is really good, 226 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:11.960 even though it doesn't. It may get people hyped, Oh it traded a 227 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.879 billion. They think, oh, that's going to be a billion in assets. 228 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.960 It doesn't quite work out like that. Some of it will be inflows, 229 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:26.240 but the volume is like if you were fishing for professional institutional traders and 230 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.679 they were actual fish in a lake, and you were santasking me what bait 231 00:16:30.759 --> 00:16:37.000 to use, I would tell you volume more important than fees. Even advisors 232 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:41.639 love fees and low fees, but these are already low. So I always 233 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.240 tell people, if you want full maximum category growth, you need two things, 234 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:49.480 low fees and high volume. And they got both already, so they're 235 00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:53.240 in great shape. That's why we track volume. Volume also in my opinion 236 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.720 for tens, flows and assets. Later like, for example, in two 237 00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:02.399 thousand and eight in the awful cell off, a lot of institutions discovered ets 238 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.039 for the first time because they were liquid when other things weren't. So let's 239 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:11.599 say there's some kind of massive crash in the market and bitcoin's kind of brought 240 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.559 into that, and there's some illiquidity in the bitcoin market. I guarantee you 241 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.640 I BIT and FBTC, these will be the most traded things that offer bitcoin. 242 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:22.559 So institutions are going to be like, I'd rather use the ETF than 243 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:29.359 actually even interacting the underlying currency. So that's how bond ETFs got big. 244 00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.400 And so two thousand and eight, bond ytfs saw volume spike up huge, 245 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:37.119 and then the years after their assets went up. Volume is a lot of 246 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.359 times also, when someone gets their first taste of an ETF, they're like, 247 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:41.960 oh that was it. I had a good experience. They come back 248 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:48.400 later. It doesn't always translate immediately that night. So but volume is again 249 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:53.920 it's like measuring frequency or popularity. Over time, that volume does convert into 250 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:59.920 assets, So to me, it's the leading indicator of a category's asset growth. 251 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.119 Hi, everyone, part of the interruption, I'm Tony Edward. The 252 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:06.759 founder and host of the Thinking Crypto podcast. I have a you favor to 253 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.680 ask you. If you haven't subscribed as yet on YouTuber or the podcast platforms, 254 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.359 hit that subscribe button, hit the thumbs up button, hit the notification 255 00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.400 bell on the YouTube platform, and on Spotify or Apple or wherever you get 256 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:22.240 your podcasts, please leave a five style rating and review. It supports the 257 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:26.119 podcast. It allows me to bring great quality content to you. Thank you 258 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.440 for your support, and I'll let you get back to the content. Eric, 259 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:33.000 I don't know if you can take us behind the scenes of how the 260 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:37.920 bitcoin is actually bought. Once you know, the cash is put into the 261 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:42.319 collected by black Rock and these other institutions. So the devolume we're seeing is 262 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:48.119 in cash. And do you think they're buying the bitcoin OTC or on on 263 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:56.039 the market from regular exchanges OTC okay, So there's gonna be some like that. 264 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:57.359 That is a great question, and some people are on Twitter like, 265 00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:02.839 oh OTC is running out. Know, I got to explore that. I'm 266 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:07.880 interested in that. I don't operate in that corner. But if you send 267 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.920 an issuer money, if you're if you're an ap, you can't send them 268 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.039 bitcoin. You have to send them money because you want new ETF shares. 269 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:21.200 They take your money, they go buy bitcoin through like Jane Street or you 270 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:25.759 know who has it OTC. That bitcoin then goes into their custodian coinbase. 271 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:30.400 As soon as that's the they wire you the shares of the ETF. So 272 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:36.480 you give them money, they wire you the shares back. In the meantime 273 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:40.519 they're doing they're going to Jane Street or somebody like that to get the bitcoin, 274 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.599 and that's over the counter. But yeah, will there be a time 275 00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:49.400 where they use other areas or do they currently? I'm not sure, but 276 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:56.200 that's that's the general way they do it. But that part of the market 277 00:19:56.279 --> 00:20:00.519 is it's it's not like it's opaque, but it's a part of the that 278 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.359 it's sort of like, you know, it's it's how the sausage is made, 279 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:07.960 and when the sausage looks fine, you rarely go back and look in 280 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.920 the factory. You're like, oh, I'm more concerned with how it's selling, 281 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:14.839 what the marketplace is like. So, but it's a great question, 282 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:19.720 but there's a good I would recommend anybody interested in this. Nate Jerrasi has 283 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:25.279 a podcast called ETF Prime. He interviewed Matt Hogan, and Matt went right 284 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.559 through like how a bill becomes a law, how an ETF converts, and 285 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:33.880 I just paraphrased what he said. There, issuers have a direct view of 286 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.480 this. I do not. I have to get them telling me how it 287 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:40.880 works, because again, I'm like an analyst looking from the outside in. 288 00:20:41.240 --> 00:20:44.039 I'm a pundit, a critic, so I have the data, but I 289 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:48.759 don't do this behind the office. But that's what issuers tell me happens. 290 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:52.440 Yeah, I'm very curious about the inner workings of that. And you know, 291 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.680 what do you think about bit wise? They have released their wallet address 292 00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:00.480 where they're showing their bitcoin holdings that are, you know, allocated to the 293 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.920 ETF. Do you expect the other issuers to do something along those lines. 294 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.920 Nobody has yet, so I don't know. I think bit wise is probably 295 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:15.519 one of the most Cryptoi native issuers, so it's on brand for them. 296 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:19.359 Maybe arc would do it, you know, because they're with twenty one shares 297 00:21:19.359 --> 00:21:23.519 and Ophilia Snyder is very crypto native and Kathy's a big fan. I could 298 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.559 see them do it. Maybe Valkyrie would do it. The bigger guys, 299 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:32.319 no way, they just don't you know, that's just not them. They 300 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:34.519 don't need to. They don't care. Yeah, they don't. The only 301 00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.079 way they do it is if the other if a bit wise did it and 302 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:42.359 bitwise started to get more flows than them, that would that would turn their 303 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:45.599 head. I don't see that happening, so I don't see any reason for 304 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:48.920 them to do it. Yeah, that would definitely make sense. Like I'm 305 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.839 sure black Rock day, they don't care. But like you said, if 306 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:57.640 there was a competitive angle, you know, where they were losing that they 307 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:02.960 would you know, pitch late and do the same thing. Now, I 308 00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.079 remember you tweeted about this and I saw the reports I think about a month 309 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:11.240 ago that major banks want to custody the big coin et apps and the problem 310 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:15.160 is the blocker is the SEC's SAB one two one rule and they want to 311 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.839 participate. You know, what do you think about that? And let's say 312 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:22.559 that gets removed because you see members of Congress are pushing back on that rule. 313 00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:26.279 What would that open up for the big banks like JP Morgan and what 314 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.400 they would you know, decide to do with the big cooinytfs. Well, 315 00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:33.200 look, all of them could be issuers today, so they've all chosen not 316 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.240 to. You know, the guy who runs JP Morgan's ETF business, he 317 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.079 said never say never, but he also said they're happy to sit this out 318 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:48.720 and just watch all the craziness. So I think what it means though, 319 00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.880 is that if banks are allowed to handle bitcoin, it means they can be 320 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.680 part of the ecosystem more. And the reason they were interested to be part 321 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.839 of the ecosystem after the launch was they were like, Wow, this was 322 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:03.440 bigger than I thought it was going to be. You have to understand, 323 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.400 many people wrote this off, even really smart people. There's this one guy 324 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.000 used to work at morning Star who's like one of the smartest ETF analysts that 325 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.000 you'll ever meet. He works he's into the crypto space now actually, and 326 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:22.440 he his predictions were so low and I was higher, but they like were 327 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:26.039 ten times higher than mine and his was like way down here. So a 328 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.079 lot of people just thought this isn't this is all about nothing, all this 329 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.960 approval watching it's going to come out and it's going to be like there'll be 330 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:37.640 like a couple hundred million, But who's really the audience. Most of them, 331 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:48.319 I think underrated the power of the ETF. You know, somebody the 332 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.960 other day said, you know, if you want to spend less money, 333 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.839 stop shopping at Amazon and just go and get everything physically, because everything else 334 00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:03.400 just the lack of friction makes you buy more. That's the ETF. So 335 00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:08.480 the ETF is so good that you could put like dog shit in it and 336 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:14.480 it would probably sell a little bit of dog shit. I think bitcoin obviously 337 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.680 has a real market, and I say that facetiously. There have been ETFs 338 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:23.039 to flop, no doubt, but the demand is probably even somewhat generated by 339 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:27.000 the fact that it's now so convenient, easy, it's an entrusted rapper, 340 00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:33.160 sec approved, and it's with these big brands that everybody knows and loves that 341 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:36.720 have been around for like dozens of years in Fidelity's case, like I don't 342 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:41.039 know what one hundred years. So this is a big deal for a professionals, 343 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:47.240 conservative people, older people like I said, I think that the bitcoin 344 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.720 ETFs are not for crypto people. They're for their parents. But their parents 345 00:24:53.759 --> 00:25:00.759 have a trillion times more money than them. So I was looking I was 346 00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:03.880 actually looking at there's one hundred and fifty seven trillion dollars in wealth in the 347 00:25:04.279 --> 00:25:11.279 United States. The boomers and the Silver Generation have like one hundred and two 348 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.720 trillion of the one to fifty seven, so they have the vast majority of 349 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:21.160 all the money. And so even if a tiny tiny sliver of that is 350 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.640 like, yeah, you know, I heard my kids talking about it, 351 00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:26.519 or I don't want to kick myself in ten years if this thing does go 352 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.200 crazy, even if I don't understand it, that's a logical thought. And 353 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:37.640 so I think that's what people underestimated was the buying the bitcoin etf as a 354 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:42.160 way to have a little fun on top of your boring sixty forty and the 355 00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:48.039 potential future fomo cure. People know themselves. They even though they love their 356 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:52.359 sixty forty in their vanguard, they also like sometimes see something happen and they're 357 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:56.640 like they don't want to miss out, and they think they feel with bitcoin, 358 00:25:57.039 --> 00:26:00.400 I don't understand it, or I even think it's a scam, but 359 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.319 I don't want to be like feeling like an asshole twenty years down the road 360 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.680 when it's a million dollars and I could have just put a little on my 361 00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:11.240 account. So I think like future fomo cure is an underrated thing. And 362 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:17.039 the other thing is the idea that there's way less pressure when you're talking about 363 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.960 the hot sauce part of your portfolio. For a boomer, they're not going 364 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:23.720 all in. They'd put one percent, and like, you know, okay, 365 00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.839 it flames out. This is not the money that counts. I'm not 366 00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.400 gonna This isn't my beach house, this isn't my kid's money, right, 367 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:34.160 this is just a little flyer on something that just in case it goes up, 368 00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:38.920 you know. So there's just a lot less pressure. And if something's 369 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:44.640 volatile and speculative as Bitcoin is, the fact that it's only one percent, 370 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.599 you can stomach that volatility much better than if it were the whole thing. 371 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:55.359 And so I believe that Vanguard in the core has actually done wonders for people's 372 00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:59.759 behavior with the crazy stuff. Look at ARC. ARC was used as a 373 00:26:59.799 --> 00:27:03.000 one percent allocation, hardly saw any outflows when it went down eighty percent. 374 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:07.200 In the old days, they would have seen all the people left. But 375 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.160 because ARC was simply a little hot sauce add on, people were like, 376 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.880 yeah, okay, I get it. You know, Kathy's stuff is volatile, 377 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.640 but I still think she has a vision of the future that could come 378 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:22.039 true. And plus it's only one percent who cares, so people are less 379 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:26.200 likely to act. That's why this thesis I see on Twitter about this all 380 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.119 traders and weekends, I would think the opposite. I think the Bitcoin ETFs 381 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:36.160 are going to be much stronger hands than people think. Not necessarily because the 382 00:27:36.279 --> 00:27:40.000 people are strong. It's that vanguard and the core has made them strong, 383 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.920 and that's all that's underappreciated. But again, as a guy who lived in 384 00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:52.000 this book and the other book, I feel somewhat trained to make this assessment. 385 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:56.200 And when I talk to people and actually interact with them anecdotally, that's 386 00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:00.920 what I hear. And then they look at the flows and then these sell 387 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.240 offs. You just don't see money commanding out of thematic ETFs or r ETFs. 388 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:10.160 So the stuff that's used in the hot sauce bucket doesn't necessarily people don't 389 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.200 leave when there's a downturn. Some will, and I BIT in particular could 390 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:17.640 be like the GLD, where it's traded so much, where you do have 391 00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:19.799 these institutions who are using it in all kinds of different ways, and the 392 00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:23.920 flows might be like this, but over net time you probably see an increase. 393 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:29.799 That's what's happened with GLD. With treasury ETFs, but there will be 394 00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:33.240 one that gets I think more sensitive to price, but like a fidelity one 395 00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.799 or some of the other ones that are long term holders. I doubt you'll 396 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:41.359 see people running for the hills in a selloff a little, but it's not 397 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:48.240 like I just don't. That's my take, and so the stronghands theory is 398 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:53.200 also part of why people underrated the growth or the asset potential in my opinion, 399 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.279 but I'll be honest, I even underrated it a little bit where we 400 00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:02.240 are now. I thought there'd be ten to fifteen billion in flows after the 401 00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:06.720 first year, so we're already at six. So we're essentially halfway to where 402 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.880 my middle point is and it's only been two months. My predicts prediction is 403 00:29:11.880 --> 00:29:15.000 probably dead in the water, but I'm happy to be low. I think. 404 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:22.319 I think I we've been so optimistic on approval. We were optimistic on 405 00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.759 how these would be bigger than people think. Like we've been largely bullish the 406 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:29.680 whole time that I think we'll get a pass for being a little under bullish, 407 00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.680 but we weren't like Hater's bullet bearish. Ten to fifteen million is a 408 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.279 legit category starter. GLD was probably. I think Gold's first year was like 409 00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:41.319 a billion and a half, so you can see why ten to fifteen is 410 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:49.079 pretty optimistic. But the six billion, I think is pretty shocking in the 411 00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:52.039 first two months. Or it's not even been two months, seven weeks, 412 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.240 Yeah, it's wild. So or do you think part of the like you 413 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.599 said, people's gravitational you know pull or bitcoin's gravitational poll to bring in these 414 00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:10.240 investors is due to the change in the macro and different industries like for example, 415 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:15.079 tech is a big driver of investments now because tech has been booming, 416 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.119 right, whether it's AI or whatever, web technology and whatever may just look 417 00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.680 at the video, right, and and things along those lines. They people 418 00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:29.319 investors almost see bitcoin as hey, let's get as much exposure to tech as 419 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:33.319 possible, because that's been, even though it's volatile, has been giving great 420 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:37.480 returns. Yeah, so I think what you're bringing up is a really good 421 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.640 point, which is someone I forget who it was, an analyst who does 422 00:30:41.720 --> 00:30:45.640 podcasts like two years ago, said I just keep it simple. I view 423 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:51.000 bitcoin as a as a high growth tech stock, and I just want a 424 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:53.960 piece of that stock. That's a good way to look at it. What 425 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:59.960 I am not totally sold on is this idea that it's an alternative like gold, 426 00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.839 because to me, it's a little too volatile to be a total alternative. 427 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:07.759 It is a store of value, but it's too volatile in my opinion, 428 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.480 to be called alternative. And it sometimes moves with the market, like 429 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:17.640 if everything went to hell tomorrow, like the stock market. I got to 430 00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:22.119 think bitcoin's probably going to be like along with it. I don't see bitcoin 431 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:26.119 spiking up like if there's a huge inflation print, even though you think, 432 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.279 okay, high inflation should be good for bitcoin, I just think high inflation 433 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.960 means Fed's going to raise rates, means the market tanks, and I think 434 00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.359 bitcoin goes along with it because to me, for most people, bitcoin is 435 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:41.079 a speculative, hot sauce outer layer of their portfolio. It isn't something they 436 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:45.240 expect to hedge anything, and they shouldn't. But it's being sold a little 437 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:51.519 bit by the fun companies as a sort of sharp ratio increaser, risk reducer. 438 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:53.640 I'm not totally sold in that. I think over time it could be. 439 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.119 But if you charted gold and bitcoin, bitcoin makes gold look like a 440 00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.880 money market fund. I mean it's it's just too volatile, right, Now 441 00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:05.960 to so, I like you, that's a perfect way to look at it. 442 00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:08.599 If I was telling somebody who's interested, I was like, look, 443 00:32:08.680 --> 00:32:13.279 I mean, just look at it as like some like high growth maybe not 444 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:16.480 yet quite profitable tech company. Like if you believe in it or you just 445 00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:20.920 want to not kick yourself later, put one percent in it. But just 446 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.160 look at it like that, expect volatility, and I would that's a great 447 00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:30.359 way to think about it personally. I think that's better than thinking of it 448 00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:34.480 as some kind of an alternative or a liquid all as they call them. 449 00:32:34.839 --> 00:32:37.880 Now, great point that you brought up that you know there's a high correlation 450 00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.599 with the stock market, and just look at COVID crash right in twenty twenty. 451 00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:45.000 Bitcoin went down too with everything else, and then bounced up when the 452 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:50.119 stock market bounced as well. So it's following the stock market in global liquidity. 453 00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.680 And two. So to your point, maybe over time that changes, 454 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:59.680 but the facts, the data don't lie. It's moving with the stock market. 455 00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:05.559 Now, let's talk about the eighty twenty investment rule, which has changed 456 00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:08.359 to sixty forty. But as this asset class mature is and it goes beyond 457 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:12.400 bitcoin, you have all coin baskets and all coin ets. We're going to 458 00:33:12.400 --> 00:33:16.039 talk about the ethere METF, and then you have tokenized securities, you know, 459 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.400 real estate and stops and so forth. Do you see the portfolio split 460 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:30.359 becoming sixty thirty ten and ten being digital assets? Ten maybe ten years from 461 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:35.240 now? It depends, Like for a younger millennial, ten could be right 462 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.519 on the money. I don't see boomers doing ten. Sure, I'm gen 463 00:33:39.759 --> 00:33:46.039 x and if you're talking about me personally, I wouldn't do ten. I'm 464 00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:52.799 but it depends. Let's say an Ether ETF gets proved. I don't know. 465 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:54.480 I just think I don't know if any retail is going to go back 466 00:33:54.519 --> 00:34:00.400 to the days of like shit coins and like you know, in getting I 467 00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:06.240 just think I think Bitcoin in particular is it. You know, maybe I'm 468 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:07.599 in the micro sailor camp, but there is no second best. I mean, 469 00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:09.760 if Ether's going to come along, I was just talking to a guy 470 00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:16.800 today, like Ether coming after spot Bitcoin is like the opening act, trying 471 00:34:16.840 --> 00:34:22.800 to follow the headliner. It's like reversed Eth should have come first. Spot 472 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:27.000 Bitcoin is the main attraction, the headliner. I'm much less interested in anything 473 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:30.280 else, And I think over time, like GLD or gold. ETFs have 474 00:34:30.480 --> 00:34:37.800 like something like ninety percent of the physically backed commodity. As said, silver 475 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:42.320 is a tiny slice pladium, platinum or even tinier. That's probably what you'll 476 00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.360 see here. But could you argue, Okay, maybe I need some three 477 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:50.159 or four coins. You're gonna see once they have Ether come out, they're 478 00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:53.079 gonna have bitcoin plus Ether in a proportion to the market cap. That could 479 00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:55.239 be something you put in. Again, I still wouldn't do ten, but 480 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.519 I would do one. But younger people may be more interested in that. 481 00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.519 I mean, the corners. It's amazing how little faith they have in sixty 482 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:05.800 forty is stocks and bonds, which I think is a mistake, but that's 483 00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:14.320 their choice. So clearly there's some correlation to age and interest in putting more 484 00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:19.079 into non sixty forty. So yeah, it could be for a young person 485 00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.239 who's really into this, it could be like instead of eighty ten ten, 486 00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:31.480 it could be like eighty ten ten bitcoin stocks bonds. I mean, or 487 00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:36.960 again, I've been on several podcasts where they're one hundred zero zero, I 488 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:39.960 mean they are like, I mean, are you are you one of those 489 00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.159 guys? Are you like one hundred percent? Oh? No, so my 490 00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:47.800 wife wouldn't allow me to. That's the thing. So you're married, yeah 491 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:51.280 you have kids yet? Or no, yeah I have a six to zero. 492 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:54.199 Oh yeah, so this is the thing. You know, some of 493 00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.880 these degens, there's singles still, so A they may not have gone through 494 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:05.960 a true crash. B they don't have anyone talking sense to them, you 495 00:36:05.960 --> 00:36:07.880 know, or like, hey dude, we're not putting all this on yourself. 496 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:12.280 You're in your dumb coin. We have to plan for the kids at 497 00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.519 educate education. That kind of real world pressure I think is going to move 498 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:20.920 people more to a sixty forty combo, the coiners. But I did ask 499 00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:22.920 some I asked somebody. I asked. I said on Twitter day, has 500 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:30.199 anybody ever successfully sixty forty pilled a bitcoiner? And they're all like, get 501 00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:31.840 out of here. That can never happen. Once you go bitcoin, your 502 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:35.679 mind cannot come back. And I'm like, this is a little scared to 503 00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.440 me. And I'm like, I feel like everyone who replied is single. 504 00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:42.840 I don't know, maybe I'm stereotyping, or at least I don't have kids 505 00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.119 yet. Yeah, once you get kids, especially in a house and a 506 00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:49.440 mortgage, it's like I don't know. You, I don't think about the 507 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.800 whole ranch on this. I wouldn't. I wouldn't feel comfortable sleeping at night 508 00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:57.079 on that. But there are some people just when you go that all in, 509 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:01.199 I find that it's almost it's like they've gone all in on like this 510 00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:07.199 destruction of society thing. And that's also another So your bull case is something 511 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:13.679 so really dark and wild. Yeah, I again like it reminds me of 512 00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:16.559 the two thousand and eight big short people. Yeah they won, but like 513 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:21.280 America collapsed and there was this sort of empty feeling at the end of it 514 00:37:21.320 --> 00:37:23.559 all, And I don't know, I wouldn't want it. Just seems like 515 00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:30.159 going all in on that is it's just like it's like a deeper dive down 516 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:35.760 the rabbit hole than I'm capable of. So I think most of the people 517 00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:37.920 who buy ten percent or one percent, they're not going to go that deep. 518 00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:45.239 They're gonna to this is a little like new gold, shiny object, 519 00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:47.840 and I'm moving on with my life. No, you're Eric, You're spot 520 00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.239 on, because you know, for me, as someone who's neck deep in 521 00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:55.760 crypto, and I have a good amount of crypto holdings, right, I 522 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.440 have also a financial advisor. I have a college one from my daughter. 523 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:06.079 I have a retirement accounts with well I shouldn't mention the name, but anyway, 524 00:38:06.119 --> 00:38:10.000 it's one of the Wall Street farms. People know so and guess what. 525 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:14.320 My wife made sure to weaken all that stuff because it was up to 526 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:21.960 me, I would be irresponsibly exposed. So that's that's interest to me. 527 00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:27.920 So you basically, and being honest, if you were single, you'd be 528 00:38:28.039 --> 00:38:31.800 all in. I think so. And yeah, so in other words, 529 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:38.079 you have stocks and bonds and advisory, but spiritually that doesn't do it for 530 00:38:38.119 --> 00:38:43.039 you. You do it more so to just check the box with being in 531 00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:49.159 a responsible adult and a husband exactly. That's interesting and that does validate my 532 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:57.360 theory that part of the sixty forty lifestyle is the domesticated lifestyle. Yeah. 533 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.400 Absolutely, And like you said, I have a mortgage, a daughter, 534 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:04.119 so there's all these other facets of my life that have to be focused on 535 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:08.280 and I can't. Crypto is very volatile, still new so but the good 536 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:13.840 thing is I think my wife is coming along more to me being a bit 537 00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:19.000 more so. If I were to split my holdings, I'm sixty percent crypto 538 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:24.639 and forty percent in traditional assets. So you're like a sixty forty new school 539 00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:30.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's that makes sense to me more 540 00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:37.480 than one hundred percent. But yeah, anyway, you just gave me a 541 00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:44.400 little more anecdotal data that just again sort of solidifies my view of correlations between 542 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:49.760 being all in on crypto and your domestic situation. Yeah, it's fascinating. 543 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.320 And then you know you were mentioning about boomers having a majority to wealth. 544 00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:59.039 Look in another ten years. Fortunately those boomers will pass away and that wealth, 545 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.000 I think there's been reports about it. We'll trick it down to millennials 546 00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:06.159 and gen z and where will they put the money? Right, It's interesting 547 00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:09.840 demographic shift and where capital is going to go. As now there's talks of 548 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:15.360 an ETF coming out of Hong Kong. We saw I think the first application 549 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.639 going a month ago. The US is the largest capital markets. But do 550 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.119 you think do you think Hong Kong could put something together here and there's a 551 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:29.559 lot of capital coming in from the Asian markets, Yeah, sure, I 552 00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:37.400 think that's Yeah. Let me give you data though. In the world, 553 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:43.079 the US has twenty five percent of all ETFs, but we have seventy something 554 00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:49.559 percent of all the assets and eighty five percent of all the volume. So 555 00:40:49.960 --> 00:40:54.320 the US just kicks global button. So yeah, I mean Hong Kong's probably 556 00:40:54.320 --> 00:41:00.360 like one one one percent, So you can get excited, but it's a 557 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:04.840 it's a speck of saying. It's a drop in the bucket. But I 558 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.079 think the more people globally that get into this probably the better I think for 559 00:41:08.280 --> 00:41:14.119 your cause. So it's it's additive, but I don't I don't really see 560 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:21.679 it as being that impactful. What's impactful is seeing IBID today trade, you 561 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:25.079 know, as much as Netflix or whatever. That is so much big deal. 562 00:41:25.719 --> 00:41:30.280 So so it's not it's part of the story, but it's just it's 563 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:36.280 like a footnote. In my opinion, Hong Kong there's just so little money. 564 00:41:36.360 --> 00:41:42.079 There's so much money in the US and liquidity and even people like let 565 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.599 Me I wrote a book called the Institutional ETF Toolbox Japan. I heard the 566 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:52.719 story of Japan pension. So in Japan pension uses EWJ, which is the 567 00:41:53.000 --> 00:42:00.239 I shares Japan ETF trading in the US because it's just more liquid and cheaper. 568 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:02.639 So it went halfway across the world to invest in stocks that are right 569 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:08.039 next door. Wow, so you're going to find the biggest, most serious 570 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:13.119 investors are still going to use the US spot bitcoin ETFs. But for local 571 00:42:13.159 --> 00:42:16.039 retail it's definitely gonna help, I think, and it will help bring costs 572 00:42:16.039 --> 00:42:20.679 down to the crypto exchanges. So it's all net positive, but tiny. 573 00:42:21.559 --> 00:42:25.760 Sure, let's talk etheroremous BODYTF. What are your expectations are you? Are 574 00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.440 you expecting an approval this year or possibly twenty twenty five. James is really 575 00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:32.880 looking at this now. We have to have an answer because we're getting asked 576 00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:37.639 more. I see approval, whether it's this the first the final deadline is 577 00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:43.079 in May and it's Blackrock. Black Rock's big and Grayscale also has one and 578 00:42:43.119 --> 00:42:45.079 they want to convert. And we're in this deja vu situation like will they 579 00:42:45.159 --> 00:42:47.840 sue if they're denied? Does the SEC know this? Will they just approve 580 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:52.559 it not to get sued? A lot of unknowns, But at the end 581 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:57.079 of the day, I'm just going to stick to the eye test. They 582 00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:01.880 allowed, they approve bitcoin futures, and when they wouldn't approve Spot, they 583 00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:05.880 got sued and a court said you have to approve them. Basically, so 584 00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:09.880 they approved Spot. They already approved eth futures. You do the math. 585 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.800 So either they're going to approve them because they don't want to get sued, 586 00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:15.920 or they're going to get sued and then approve them. I don't really see 587 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:20.840 any other scenario playing out, And you can't use the securities argument now because 588 00:43:20.880 --> 00:43:24.039 they've already approved the futures. That's out the window. So my guess is 589 00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:28.920 they approve them just to get the hell off the plate, and after that 590 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.880 there's really nothing down the road because Bitcoin and Eather have futures which are regular 591 00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:37.920 by CETFC, and that is an important part of the deja vu. Once 592 00:43:37.960 --> 00:43:40.840 you get to these other coins, like, there's no real frame of reference 593 00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:45.639 for them, there's no future market, So I'm way less optimistic After Ether. 594 00:43:45.480 --> 00:43:47.920 The question is will they approve them by May? You know, I 595 00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:52.559 think James and I are little over fifty percent by May, but then our 596 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.280 odds go up every month after like, so the more you go out there, 597 00:43:55.280 --> 00:44:00.000 odds just go go up. There's an election coming up too, which 598 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:02.760 could mean a new SEC commissioner, which could mean a whole new sort of 599 00:44:02.760 --> 00:44:07.519 thing to think about. So those are all variables, but I'm pretty I'm 600 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.079 you know, fairly optimistic that we'll see Ether. But again, this is 601 00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:15.920 like getting excited for Ready. I don't know how old you are. I'm 602 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:21.079 going to throw at gen X references here. This is like, you know, 603 00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:28.880 you've got Sister Hazel opening for Nirvana. Ah okay, Nirvana is literally 604 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:34.119 so it has flipped. You've got Nirvana opening for sister Sister Hazel with their 605 00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:37.960 one hit wonder. I don't know how people are sticking around after Nirvana. 606 00:44:37.000 --> 00:44:42.920 I'm sorry. So this is like getting excited for Sister Hazel. I have 607 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.239 understand a reference. I am a millennial, I am a Nirvana fan. 608 00:44:45.320 --> 00:44:52.639 I don't know about Yeah. So that's that's my metaphor between like why you 609 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:57.519 know I can't get too pumped about Ether or even too emotionally or mentally committed 610 00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.000 to it. It's part of my job. I got to have an opinion. 611 00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.159 James is going to be more into it than I am. Real quick 612 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:07.679 question here, a rookie question. So you mentioned that the securities question is 613 00:45:07.719 --> 00:45:13.280 out the door because the futures were approved it, so to confirm something has 614 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:20.039 to not be a security before it can get a future's approval. CTFC approved 615 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:24.480 Ether futures, which I guess is them saying it's a commodity, okay, 616 00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:29.480 which is part of what's been used against Genzer's comments the whole time. I 617 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:35.199 believe James would be able to really fine tune this. But that's why the 618 00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:40.400 approval of the futures not see futures, but the eth futures ETFs if so 619 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:45.119 facto is like him saying it's a commodity, or it's him saying it doesn't 620 00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:51.320 matter that it's not a commodity either way out of the bottle, right yeeah, 621 00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:53.480 Yeah, that makes sense. And I think to your point is just 622 00:45:53.599 --> 00:46:00.360 Genser has been the one keeping some sort of anonymity here with you know, 623 00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:04.519 not answering questions. You know, Patrick mc kenny was like, sir, 624 00:46:04.599 --> 00:46:07.800 is he he refuses to answer it. But you know, under j Clayton 625 00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:12.599 and Bill him and these guys, they had clearly stated the theorem is not 626 00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:17.639 a security. So he's added some confusion and and you know, it is 627 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:21.400 what it is. I think I said anonymity, I meant ambiguity. But 628 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:24.400 yeah, it's it's interesting and I hope he approves in and we don't have 629 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:29.480 to go through this court battle again. But maybe to your point, it's 630 00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:32.719 an election year. Uh, he is Biden appointed, buying an administration appointed, 631 00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:36.519 and maybe they don't want to look too bad as we get closer to 632 00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:39.320 the elections, so maybe things will go smoothly. We'll see. Yeah, 633 00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:44.519 we're we're going to work our back channels. What I need is some good 634 00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:47.000 tip. I need a back alley tip from one of the lawyers or something. 635 00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:51.440 Right now, we don't really we're not running or anything. We haven't 636 00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:53.639 heard the SEC reaching out to any We've seen ARC, and I think it 637 00:46:53.719 --> 00:47:00.599 was just ARC update their perspectives to include the comments from the bitcoin cycle, 638 00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:05.760 so like ARC's you know, ready to go. I mean they've already updated 639 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:10.159 their comments with like their prospectus incorporating the comments that happened during the bitcoin ETF 640 00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.320 cycle. So that doesn't mean anything though, I mean it means ARC is. 641 00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:19.880 ARC's always been like a little bit of like head of the class and 642 00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:22.280 all this stuff, Like every time there was a comments, they'd be first 643 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:27.880 out with the comment updates, and so I don't know, I like patterns 644 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:30.440 and just so just to see them out in front, I feel like some 645 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.920 level of comfort. But I have not heard of the Commission reaching out to 646 00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:38.559 anybody. And that's what I would really need to see to get excited. 647 00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:43.079 Absolutely, Eric, I know we're running up on time, So I got 648 00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.519 some wrap up questions here for you. If you could create your own metaverse, 649 00:47:46.079 --> 00:47:55.000 what would the theme beware go? Oh man, that's a good question. 650 00:47:55.400 --> 00:48:00.519 You know what probably like one of my favorite places to go is like 651 00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:07.360 the Southwest, like Arizona, you know, like road Runner in Wiley Coyote. 652 00:48:07.800 --> 00:48:09.119 I would I would want to chill there. I'd want to go to 653 00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:15.719 like like a little like what I just want to be around, like reptiles 654 00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:22.320 and tumbleweed and like those mountain things. And because it's so different than where 655 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:24.280 I live in Philly. I live in Philly, and like I'm close to 656 00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:28.360 the beach, I go, you know, go there enough. We've got 657 00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:31.800 trees here. One thing we don't have and what looks like another planet to 658 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:37.119 a Philly person is like Arizona. Sure, and so I'd make it Arizona 659 00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:44.000 themes something like that, nice and rapid fire Questions favorite food crab legs, 660 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:49.000 favorite crabs, crabs? Yeah, there's that look blue claw too. Anything 661 00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:52.960 crabs to me is the is the top. If I'm on if I have 662 00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:57.239 one meal left, I'm going, you know, three or four pounds of 663 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:07.000 King Crab Legs. Oh that's the favorite musician or band. I would say 664 00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.239 Radiohead and all of Tom York's little side projects, even though Radiohead probably pound 665 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.039 for pound better, but I grew up with them. They're my favorite. 666 00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:24.880 Nice favorite movie. That's tough. I mean Jesus, there's so many good 667 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:32.559 ones. I you know, it changes too. I would say that I'm 668 00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:37.760 gonna be lame and probably go Godfather. Godfather I, even though it's so 669 00:49:38.960 --> 00:49:44.400 cliched, whenever it's on, I get sucked in. Totally me too, 670 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:51.440 same with two. Yeah, such beautiful filmmaking, like the characters, the 671 00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:54.400 family story, everything is just so money. It's like the Mona Lisa of 672 00:49:54.440 --> 00:50:00.000 movies. And so it's my favorite. And by the way, if you 673 00:49:59.920 --> 00:50:04.519 you are a Godfather fan, go watch The Offer. The Offer is a 674 00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:13.000 series The Paramount made with Miles. Who's the guy who was in Miles Turner. 675 00:50:13.079 --> 00:50:16.880 No, Miles, who's the young actor with the first name Miles who 676 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:23.760 was in Whiplash? Oh? H and he was in Tom Cruise A top 677 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.039 Gun two. Yes, yes, I know who you're talking about. I 678 00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:30.800 forgot his name. Robert Miles whatever. That dude plays the producer who put 679 00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:37.079 together Godfather, and the whole thing's about trying to put together this movie over 680 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:40.199 like a couple of years. The mafia doesn't want it made. Frank Sinatra's 681 00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:45.159 like sent there's you know, they don't want Alt Pacino playing the part. 682 00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:49.719 It goes through the whole like on the edge of the edge of getting this 683 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:54.079 movie made was it was ridiculous. It's a fascinating, like seven part series 684 00:50:54.840 --> 00:51:00.440 about the making of The Godfather. Highly recommend. I'm gonna to watch that 685 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:02.280 because I'm a fan. I even read the book. You'll love it. 686 00:51:04.039 --> 00:51:07.639 You're gonna be so into this, I promise you. I'm gonna check that. 687 00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:15.480 The offer, right, the offer perfect favorite book. Oh man, 688 00:51:20.039 --> 00:51:24.239 you know, I'm gonna go with a book I've read twice in the past 689 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:30.800 like ten years, which is Chronicles by Bob Dylan. So this guy wrote 690 00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.480 one book. You know, Bob Dylan influenced the Beatles, like the Beatles 691 00:51:34.480 --> 00:51:36.760 would be singing yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't for Bob. Bob 692 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:42.920 Dylan completely changed the whole course of popular music. And he wrote one book 693 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.480 and in this book, Chronicles, it's not like general biography. It's all 694 00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:54.440 about him. It's not even written in like a normal fashion. But what 695 00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:59.719 you realize is it starts with him about twelve years old and it ends with 696 00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:05.239 him rate when blowing the wind blows up right, So it's like seven years 697 00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:07.960 and he's sleeping on couches in New York. He's going to these different art 698 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:13.639 gallery openings, he's reading books that are next to and what you realize is 699 00:52:13.679 --> 00:52:17.360 that what he's doing is he's explained to you what went into his brain to 700 00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:22.159 allow him to write all that stuff. It is the best book on the 701 00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:25.000 creative process by one of the most creative people you ever meet. And then 702 00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:29.840 the second half of the book starts when he's down and out in nineteen like 703 00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.800 eighty five. Remember the you see the pic the picture from We Are the 704 00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:37.039 World where he looks like fat and lost, you know when they're singing We 705 00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:39.239 Are the World. Anyway, Bob Bylan looked bad. In like eighties, 706 00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:43.000 the eighties, Bob Dylan was like, you know, Madonna was popular, 707 00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:45.559 Michael Bob Dilan was lost. So the book then picks up again in the 708 00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:49.280 eighties when he felt he was like in the gutter. He was like I 709 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.480 had no life, no spirit, nothing, and he was touring with Tom 710 00:52:52.519 --> 00:52:55.480 Petty and was like, this guy's so like on top of his game. 711 00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:02.760 And then it goes into how how he found a second creative birth, and 712 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:06.599 then it ends when he wins the Grand you know, the Grammy. So 713 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.360 none of it's about the successes or who he dated or anything. It's just 714 00:53:09.400 --> 00:53:15.000 about how he find his creative footing before he made something that had an explosive 715 00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:20.119 popularity. And I just I read it again. It's just there's so much 716 00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.480 in there, from my opinion, one of the best. If we're talking 717 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:29.000 like Tennessee Williams or like you know, premier poet artists of this generation, 718 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.800 I'd put him right at the top, you know, top three, And 719 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:36.840 so this book gets you get into his brain and creative process. And but 720 00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.199 it he doesn't lay it out the way he writes. He's just you just 721 00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.760 figure out while you're reading it. Oh, I see what he's doing here. 722 00:53:44.039 --> 00:53:45.920 Anyway, it's fascinating book. There's so many books I love, but 723 00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:50.280 I thought that was just a good one for people who were like watching podcasts 724 00:53:50.360 --> 00:53:53.480 or probably like creative type. So I'd recommend that I will check that out. 725 00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:57.440 And finally, when you're not working at Bloomberg, what are you doing 726 00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:04.480 for fun As a hobby. I like to play tennis, coach my kids 727 00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:10.159 basketball team, and I'll leave it at those two. Those are my two 728 00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:14.960 hobbies for now. I do a little painting, a little chrylic painting, 729 00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:17.000 and when I get into it, I love it. But sometimes I just 730 00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:21.719 forget to do it and it gets busy with like parenting and all this stuff, 731 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:24.840 and then I'm just watching TV. But I really, really, I'd 732 00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:30.519 say tennis is probably my main hobby right now. Nice Eric, Absolute pleasure 733 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.159 chatting with you. As always, I listen, I follow you on Twitter. 734 00:54:34.280 --> 00:54:37.320 You always provide great content and great updates. So thank you for joining 735 00:54:37.320 --> 00:54:39.800 me. Yeah, great to be here. Nice chatting with you.