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Hello, and welcome to Open Mind
UFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I have with
me my good friend Martin goofball willis Yeah,

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that's me sometimes, yes, quite
often pretty much every show, which

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is what people enjoy about. Well, I should say what some people enjoy

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about the beginning of the show is
are goofball antics, and so I definitely

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appreciate your goofballness. Some people right
right, some I think it's many.

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But just to inform people, because
I'm informing this for those people who don't

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like it so much that to give
people a little bit about the show,

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we cover credible UFO news and information
kind of in a journalistic way. I'm

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a journalist, I write, so
we look for substantiated, incredible information and

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if we speculate, we're going to
let you know that. At the beginning

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of the show, we review the
news Martin and I and then I bring

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on the guest at the second and
third segment. So, if you're one

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of those people who do not enjoy
the goofballness actually jocularity, there is these

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hosts in Denver who used to always
say, oh, if you don't enjoy

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your jocularity, then you can just
skip right up to twenty five minutes in

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and get to the interview. But
our guest today is MJ. Benias,

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and he's great. He is a
blogger, an educator, and a writer.

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He's written a book, he's been
a filled investigator with the Mutual UFO

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Network. He's got a website called
Tera Obscura. And what I like about

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MJ. This is the second time
I've had him on. He's definitely more

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of a deep thinker. He likes
the sociological and philosophical aspects of all of

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this, how it affects the culture
in general. And of course that's a

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topic that I love myself, and
this particular moment in time, I think

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that's really important, especially once we
get to the news, we're going to

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see that. So I always love
talking to MJ. And so we got

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him on. He's got a new
book called The UFO People, A Curious

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Culture, which is kind of about
all these topics that he likes to speak

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on. So I know you had
him on last week, right, Martin,

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Yeah, the week before last,
Yes, Okay, Yeah, he's

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a lot of fun. He has
a lot of fun. So last week

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I had on Anthony la Pey and
I got some feedback that I was really

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screwing up his name and I was
calling him Andrew occasionally when his name was

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Anthony. So I apologized for that
because a lap is certainly not as nice

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as a la pee. Were you
saying his name correctly? I did,

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but that's uncharacteristic, right, normal, yeah, pronunciation. So and I

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apologize for that because he was an
excellent interview And and as I said in

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the show last week, you know, I was traveling and I kind of,

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like to be honest, ducked into
the bathroom on my cell to do

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the interview, and I recorded it
because I record all my interviews because I

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like to get my quotes exact,
and because this was going to be for

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print, I didn't realize and then
they thought it was going to be for

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audio and print, so they allowed
me. So I said, hey,

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I'd more than love to post this
audio. So I did. And Yeah,

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a lot of people really liked all
of the interviews that some of us

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got with him. Yeah, yeah, he is. He's very articulate and

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very interesting guy. Well, it's
really interesting to hear from a conventional kind

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of you know, investigative journalist doing
stuff like getting out there in war zones

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and you know, covering military and
stuff like that. It's interesting to hear

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from a guy like this what he
thinks about UFOs, you know, and

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his reaction to the whole Pentagon UFO
program and to the stars and everything.

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So yeah, it was great to
hear from him and his thoughts about,

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you know, how he felt going
into the show Undisclosed, which is going

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to air Friday. It's right coming
up. I can't wait, you've already

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seen it. I can't wait for
the series. Can't wait for episode two.

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I know se screeners. Yeah,
we've got to see episode one.

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Martin and I we've already talked about
it. I've got to review out.

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We both really liked it. So
excited for all of you to see it

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on Friday. I shouldn't say all
of you, though, because you and

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I both have a lot of friends
that are not in the United States.

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And unfortunately, just like Project blue
Book the television show, this isn't going

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to launch where it's going to be
accessible to people outside of the States.

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There's a couple of ways you can
deal with that. You can be patient

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and wait. Because Project blue Book
has started now in other countries. However,

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a lot of people are saying,
you know, if you go online,

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you can do these proxies. You
can use these proxy services. They're

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kind of cooking in. If you
do that, then you can watch them.

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Wow, so they're geo blocked basically, Yes, they are geo blocked.

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Wow. Interesting, I had no
idea. Yeah, they do that

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with TV and movies, and I
don't understand the business and why they do

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all that because it can be frustrating. And it is said because you know,

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all of our European listeners or otherwise
are can't see the show or enjoy

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what we're talking about. And I
know that's frustrating for them. So yeah,

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see what you can do. Look
into the proxy thing. Yeah,

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it's only like five bucks a month
or something. Yeah. You know what

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I would do too, Go to
open Mind's UFO news group, you know,

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our Facebook group. If you're on
Facebook or on Twitter, you could

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do it there or any of our
social media and post you know, hey,

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guys, I'm in you know,
this country and I'm trying to watch

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the show. How how can I
do it? And We've got a lot

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of helpful people in there who I'm
sure will pipe up I'll make sure somebody

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pipes up and says, here's how
you do it, so you can figure

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that out. Great idea. I
never even thought of that, But you're

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totally right that. I always think, you know, because we can watch

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it, that everyone can. But
that's absolutely true. When I've been traveling,

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I've seen that happen. M yeah, exactly. It is frustrating.

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I've had that happen to me as
well. All right, so let's go

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ahead and get into the news.
There's a lot a lot to talk about

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there, so go ahead. I'll
let you start, all right. Well,

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you know, I wanted to jump
right into this New York Times article

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called Wow, what is that?
Navy pilots report unexplained flying objects? Now,

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this just aired yesterday. Leslie Kane, Ralph Blumenthal, and Helen Cooper

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or I'll co authored that article that
just came out. It's funny. My

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son, who's more or less a
skeptic of this topic, wrote me yesterday

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in the middle of the day,
like, look, this just just came

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out, and so I thought that
was pretty funny, and then later heard

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from Leslie on that. But anyway, what I'd really like to talk about,

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though, is a follow up article
that Tyler Roguaway. I know he's

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been on your show. He is
on the One Zone. One thing too,

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that that list of people that you
just listed that wrote this New New

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York Times article, they're the same
crew who wrote the original New York Times

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and that's an article about a tip
that made a big deal. Yeah,

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that's right, although I don't know, you know, I mean, I

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only have this online. I don't
believe it made on the front page like

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the other one did. But I'm
sure it's definitely getting a lot of activity,

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I would imagine. So one of
the things that Tyler Roguaway points out

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in his article is something that was
kind of well, according to his you

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know, I'm paraphrasing here, but
the New York Times sort of glazed over.

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Is the radar tech that is key
in this detection. Now this goes

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back to off the East coast in
like twenty fifteen. You know, the

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the tic TAC, of course,
was two thousand and four on the West

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coast, but this is on the
East coast, in between Virginia and Florida.

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These pilots we're seeing these objects,
and two of them have identified themselves

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and one of them is Lieutenant Lieutenant
Danny A. Coin and the other one

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is I'm looking for his names,
Lieutenant Ryan Graves. So they were both

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in FA eighteen super Hornet and they
are out there with this new technology and

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it's called a E s A,
which is active electronically scanned array, and

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formally they had what was called p
A P E s A, which is

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a passive electronic scanned array. And
the advantage that they have now with the

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A S with the A E s
A is it has a capability of the

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advantage of it is there's different modules
and it can send out several different frequencies

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and that is which they were never
able to do before because originally the passive

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one had a single source split into
hundreds of signals. So this they can

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send out all types of signals.
So anyway, they're picking up things that

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they never picked up before. And
this actually has something to do with all

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the sightings that they they see now. But they did list the characteristics of

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what they were seeing of up to
eleven hours of flight. Now, the

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one thing that I had a question. I don't know if you thought about

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this, Alejandro, but if they
were actually seeing this and observing it,

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for eleven hours. Why didn't they
I don't want to say engage, but

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why didn't they go and try to
get really close to it and observe what

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it was doing? Well? They
mean, that's what's interesting is they did

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so. Apparently when these new radars
came online, they started seeing these objects

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similar to what like what Kevin Day
and people in the Nimus reported, they

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saw them at higher elevations and dropping
to lower elevations very quickly. At times.

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They said specifically that they saw him
at thirty thousand feet twenty thousand feet

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and right at the surface and you
know, kind of bouncing in between,

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or like you said, often sitting
there for hours. And they're saying,

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you know, first of all,
the mechanics of something moving very quickly,

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the properties an aircraft has. For
instance, let's take a harrier that can

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hover in places you know that jet, but it can't go very fast,

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so you're it's a trade off.
Whereas things that go very fast can't go

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very slower they fall out of the
sky. So they don't understand, you

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know, this already is a characteristic
that we cannot achieve to hover and go

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very fast at the same time.
You know, Lieutenant Graves actually refers to

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that. So they're all freaked out
about these things they're catching on radar.

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They did try to go look at
him. In fact, graves Or,

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I think it was a coin,
one of the pilots said that, and

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they were all on the Roosevelt just
so, the three of the Roosevelt,

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that's the aircraft carrier they were on. He says that he went on a

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couple of times to go look for
them, and he found them on radar.

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He got to the merge plot,
you know Fravor talks about that.

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That's where you're in the same space, similar area to the object, and

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he could not visually see them.
So at that point they didn't know what

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was going on. They believed something
was really there. They were thinking they

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must have been advanced drones that were
being tested because they're training in you know,

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military training areas. But that all
changed when one day one of these

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things went zipping past two of the
jets. So two of the jets are

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flying, one in their wingman.
They're one hundred feet apart, and this

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object that looked like a cube with
a circle around it, like a cube

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in a beach ball. Some are
describing it or a cube in kind of

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a circular kind of force field or
something. Fraver even spoke about this in

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Oregon because he knows these pilots and
talked to him about this event. So

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it's like, yeah, these cubes
and some kind of circular force field or

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something like that. But this thing
went zipping past them, and they told

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everybody, and that freaked them all
out. At that point, they were

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taking this very seriously because of course, you know, that's hugely dangerous.

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Plus to them, it indicated this
isn't ours. None of our guys would

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fly a test drone in between or
anywhere near us where it could put us

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in danger, So this cannot be
ours. So really interesting. Tyler Roguaway

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now says he's speculating. He's saying, well, it could still be ours.

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Just because it accidentally hit one of
our planes or got close to that

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doesn't mean it's not ours. Could
have been a mistake, he says,

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Now, I'm not saying that it's
definitely that that's the case, but we

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have to keep that, we have
to consider that. And he's got a

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good point, you know, until
we can absolutely rule out that it is

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not some sort of advanced you know, secret project. We can't rule it

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out. However, he makes the
point that this is still extraordinary, just

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like he wrote about with the Knimics
encounter, because it proves that these objects

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exist, that objects moving at incredible
speed and using propulsion that you know we're

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not used to that can do these
incredible things. They're real. They've got

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to be out there. Now.
The question is are they ours or not?

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And he agrees that, you know, the technology is so advanced it's

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likely, well, it would be
hard to say it's ours, but of

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course it would also be extraordinary to
say it's not ours. So either scenario

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is kind of far fetched or at
least difficult to conclude. Yeah, wow,

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No, it's it's really amazing to
think that it, if it is

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technology, that we could be that
far advanced, And it would be also

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amazing that nothing was ever leaked about
it, right, And that's what Fraverer

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said. Uh, some people had
asked, you know, well, what

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do you do you think these things
are ours? In fact, that was

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the only question I got went in
Oregon, and some of the information about

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what fraver had said in Oregon at
the McMinnville conference. Now you know,

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over a week ago has come out, like, for instance, a video

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was posted and then it was taken
down. I saw that unfored doone right

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away. The good part is it
confirmed what I had said, because because

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you know, people were saying,
oh, you did Daljandra exaggerate this or

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something, which I did not like. I told you, if anything,

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I put it mildly. But that
was taken down. Now Danny Silva and

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I've got the article on the front
page in the UFO headline. He wrote

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an article about all of this,
and he called it UFOs hovering for days,

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just sitting there, and he took
some quotes from Fravor and so you

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could see some of what fraver says
there about these hovering objects. But one

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of the things he said is,
and I asked, I just wanted to

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hear his perspective because some of the
people like one of the things that some

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people had gotten frustrated with me about
it is I really didn't put much stock

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into this idea that it was a
missile being test in the area in San

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Diego when FRAVERR had his sighting,
because what Fraverr describes is something sitting there.

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Then as he approaches it, it
matches his maneuvers and then speeds off

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at a really fast speed that does
not fit a missile whatsoever. So he

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says that no propulsion signature, nothing
right, no propulsion signature or anything.

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He says that, just like these
guys on the Roosevelt, his first instinct

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was that much must be some sort
of top secret project that was extraordinary,

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and it blew his mind, but
he thought that's what it must be.

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But over time, he says that
he felt that couldn't be the case.

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He felt, as more time goes
on, it's more likely not ours,

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because there's no way they could keep
that secret. And he even referenced a

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couple projects that were black projects in
the past that eventually we found out about.

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And it's his belief that there we
eventually find out, you know,

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when time passes five ten years,
we find out, but we haven't found

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out about you know, these technologies, so he feels strongly they are not

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ours. By the way, there
are also skeptics who are talked about the

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gimbal video, and it turns out
it comes from the Roosevelt. So these

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guys said, not only had did
they try to engage them kind of getting

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back to your question. You know, one of them did get that video

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of the thing moving close to the
water and then the other video. So

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it seems like both the other two
video are from this Roosevelt incident, and

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that is that one is the one
that was on the first New York Times

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article. Also, yeah, on
one of them wasn't. Then one of

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them wasn't the one that's referred to
as the gimbal. You see this object

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that it seems to move in a
weird way rotate. Some skeptics have said

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that they's a regular jet and that
that is just the camera moving. Even

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our good buddy Mark D'Antonio that that
is not indicating an object that's rotating.

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Well, Fraver spoke to that and
he said that's absolutely false. There's no

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way. And here's his argument that
they cannot rotate an aircraft as it fling

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flies. He says, airplanes have
something called wings. You need your wings

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to fly. If you turn at
a ninety degree where your wings are above

238
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you, you're not achieving any lift
and you'll fall out of the sky.

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And they didn't do that right,
So whatever direction your tip, Yeah,

240
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so we see planes do that right
as novices. The rest of us we

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see planes go sideways like that.
But he makes a point, if you're

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going to do that, you have
to bank, because you have to make

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some g forces for your wings to
create the lift. And the only people

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who will do that sometimes as the
Blue Angels, can do it in a

245
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way where they kind of play with
their tail, but they move slower and

246
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they still begin to fall. But
that's obviously not what this thing was doing.

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So this thing was definitely not,
you know, just a plane rotating

248
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or something like that, and a
lot of people have already proven that it

249
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wasn't just the optics moving. But
when you listen to fravr especially address this,

250
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these guys work with this equipment.
They know this equipment very very well,

251
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and they know the nature of other
aircrafts that they're flying with very very

252
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well. So you get the sense
that, you know, I apologize to

253
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Mark and to others, but this
guy's got a lot more experience with his

254
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equipment and the nature of the objects
that they're filming than our good buddies Mark

255
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D'Antonio and stuff do. Yeah,
yeah, right. You know, one

256
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of the things in this article that
just came out that they they when they're

257
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describing the vehicles, they're saying that
they're rotating. Right, These are all

258
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rotating, and that's what it looks
like in the gimbal, right, it

259
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looks like something that's actually rotating.
So, which is another bizarre situation.

260
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But the part where you mentioned the
cube cube going by with something rotating around

261
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.759
it or or or like a force
field or something around it, that is

262
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really fascinating, isn't it freaky?
Even Tyler is like, this sounds like

263
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Star Trek. It sounds crazy,
but he's like, it's real. If

264
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these pilots say it's real, it's
real. These guys are pros because you

265
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know, Tyler works with defense.
That's what he does every day, writes

266
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stories about defense and talks with pilots. So and he said he even knew

267
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about a lot of these encounters before
they were made public, just because the

268
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word is spread inside of the community. So really interesting. Another interesting thing

269
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is lou Elizondo was on Coast to
Coast last night with George Knapp. They

270
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talked about a few things. One
of the few things they talked about is

271
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in the second episode, there will
be a map that a tip created about

272
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UFO hotspots so that sounds really interesting. Let's see. They also addressed a

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couple of things such as Lou getting
attacked by different people online, you know,

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and he said he said one thing
that I backed up too, which

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was that you know, some people, and I guess we won't mention names.

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Lou didn't have said that, you
know. They they that Lou and

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others and TTSA has not reached out
to them despite their requests, people who

278
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:55.559
are kind of questioning Lou's integrity,
and that's not true. He has reached

279
00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:59.160
out. He's reached out to practically
everybody, and I've facilitated well, you

280
00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.160
know, to be honest, it
was Greenwald, and you know, he

281
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did reach out to Greenwald, and
Greenwald did not reciprocate unfortunately, So hopefully

282
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that'll happen over time. But another
story came out too speaking of Greenwald,

283
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which is that the Pentagon finally admits
it investigates UFOs. So there's big questions

284
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about whether or not the Pentagon released
the DoD released the UFO videos. They've

285
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admitted they have. And now this
is a big story because finally, and

286
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we have something similar in this New
York Times story, they've kind of changed

287
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.839
their tune. Now they are fessing
up and countering what they said in the

288
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past. And the past they said, we don't know if a tip was

289
00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.000
UFOs. We can't tell from our
paperwork, and so people are like,

290
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.160
see, look, they didn't even
have anything to UFOs. But they made

291
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it very clear. They also in
the past said that they the a tip

292
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programs closed and they're not looking into
UFOs anymore. Well, they said a

293
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tip was closed. Essentially, that
also is not true. So they did

294
00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:08.200
say come out and say that a
tip was investigating UAPs and that they still

295
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:11.599
look into them and take them seriously. So this is pretty crazy. This

296
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is pretty cool. This is the
d D admitting, you know that they

297
00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:22.000
did, through a tip look into
UFOs and they continue to do so amazing.

298
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Another another major you know, it's
it's another really major story. It

299
00:23:27.400 --> 00:23:33.079
is, and it's another admission.
You know. It's another thing that well,

300
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first of all, speaking of Leslie, a great reporter, it's another

301
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thing that the New York Times and
Leslie and the others told us to begin

302
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.240
with that has been true. And
of course, you know, lou and

303
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:48.759
to the stars people have been telling
us all all along the same stuff.

304
00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.640
So you know, all of this
stuff they've been telling us, it keeps

305
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.640
getting verified as being true. Another
interesting thing is in this New York Times

306
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article, the do D says that
I think this quote is really important.

307
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.160
I'm gonna find it real quick because
it's even though we're almost running out of

308
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.720
time, aren't we. But essentially
it's a DoD saying that, yes,

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00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:21.200
people are reporting these objects, we
do take them seriously. We don't know

310
00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.200
where they're coming from. Yeah,
basically says no one at the Department of

311
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:33.160
Defense is saying that the objects are
as extraterrestrial and experts emphasize I wonder what

312
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:40.160
experts emphasize that earthly explanations can generally
be found for such incidents can generally been

313
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:41.400
found. But they even said,
we don't know who they are, where

314
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.720
they're coming from, and that's what
we need to find out. Yeah,

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00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.279
so really interesting, but we're out
of time. Of course, all these

316
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:53.279
stories you can find on the front
page of Openminds dot tv. A couple

317
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:59.000
other good stories that are out there
on all of this as well. Yeah

318
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right, all right, well,
time flies, how Martin. Yes,

319
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.039
as always, it is time to
go, So thanks for joining us once

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00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:21.880
again and let's go ahead and talk
to MJ. I am very happy to

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00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:26.240
welcome back to the show, MJ. Benaias, Hello, Alejandro, how

322
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.559
are you good? How are you
doing? Oh I'm terrific. Thank you

323
00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:33.680
very much for having me on today. Thanks for being here. It's my

324
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pleasure. You know what I think
I'm going to start off with, which

325
00:25:37.319 --> 00:25:41.440
is kind of strange, but it
is kind of in the moment, Stanton

326
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.960
Friedman. It's of course, it's
very sad news that he passed. What

327
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:51.279
was Stanton Friedman? To you?
Like? How did you first hear about

328
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.759
him? What are your like is
your perspective on him and his work?

329
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:00.000
Yeah, I mean, you know, Stanton was even though he was born

330
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.839
in the States, he was a
fellow Canadian. So as a Canadian,

331
00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.079
you know, he was one of
those UFO researchers that you know, influences

332
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:14.319
people like me. I mean,
you know, there's countless countless American UFO

333
00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:21.440
researchers and andthologists, but but he
was sort of a different breed, and

334
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:25.640
I sort of I sort of joke. I think part of it was because

335
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:30.720
he was a Canadian. He was
a very class he's very classy eupologist and

336
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:36.079
a very classy researcher. You know, he never really got into you know,

337
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.240
petty arguments with anyone. You know, he just sort of did his

338
00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:42.880
own thing. You know, he
did his conference lectures and all that,

339
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.119
but he always kind of maintained a
sort of, I don't know, a

340
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:53.000
sort of attitude of professionalism and respect
I think for other people, at least

341
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:56.559
those who who who who sort of
maybe liked I don't know. At times,

342
00:26:56.599 --> 00:27:02.519
I'm sure he went after a few
people, but ultimately, you know,

343
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.000
he was sort of a class act. So I think he was a

344
00:27:06.039 --> 00:27:10.400
role model for for a lot of
US, especially US Canadian UFO researchers.

345
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:14.400
That makes sense. And you know
what, somebody said it and I can't

346
00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:18.960
remember who. Maybe it was you
that they were at a conference and they're

347
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.640
like, I didn't really know him. The only interaction I had with him

348
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:23.720
was he walked up to me and
he said, Hey, I'm glad you're

349
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.480
wearing a tie. You were the
only two speakers wearing a tie. And

350
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:30.559
I know I wish that was me, but no, it wasn't. That's

351
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:37.000
a good one though. Yeah I
remember reading that actually as well. So

352
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:40.720
yeah, so's it's a big loss
and what do you think it means,

353
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:45.519
you know, since you've been looking
at the over the community overall, and

354
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:49.960
kind of the effect on society that
this all has, what do you think

355
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:56.319
it means to the field stands passing? Well, I mean, like I

356
00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:02.599
mentioned earlier, we've definitely lost a
role model. I think there there's been

357
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:04.759
and you know, there's been a
lot of talk in the UFO community over

358
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:10.400
the last few days in regards to
in regards to who who will replace you

359
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.319
know, Stanton Freedman, who will
be the next Stanton Friedman? And I

360
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.440
think that that's that's really really sort
of what this this conversation is sort of

361
00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:22.839
about who who can fill those shoes? And I would say at this point,

362
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.440
you know, I'm not sure if
anyone really can. He sort of

363
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:32.200
had his own, but it puts
us, it puts the rest of us

364
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.759
UH to sort of the to task
now that we need to kind of fill

365
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.640
in that this this huge gap that
that he's left. You know, I

366
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:48.839
don't I didn't necessarily agree with with
Stanton on his euphological beliefs. You know,

367
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:55.160
I didn't actually always agree with with
how he approached UH the interpretation of

368
00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:00.680
the phenomenon but it doesn't mean that
that. You know, I thought he

369
00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:03.880
was wrong or we just had different
opinions on something, but you know I

370
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:10.359
always respected his work. He he
you know, I wrote about it in

371
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:15.279
a Mysterious Universe article. You know, he was one of those funny individuals.

372
00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.799
You know. Philip Class went after
him and even you know, basically

373
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.079
told him, you know, I'll
give you one hundred dollars for every time

374
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.359
you can prove this little u ufo
thing right, like the MJ twelve documents,

375
00:29:26.440 --> 00:29:29.559
right the typeface. You know,
if you can prove the type face

376
00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:33.720
on the MJ twelve documents is used
in other reports and stuff like that,

377
00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.279
you know, I'll give you a
hundred dollars for every instance. And sure

378
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.160
enough, you know, Stanton provided
him with fourteen examples of other documents that

379
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:42.720
had the same typeface, and you
know, Class eventually paid him a grand

380
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:45.799
to you know, as a as
a sort of okay, you know,

381
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.160
he made good on his bet.
You know, this is this is who

382
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:53.400
the guy was. And as a
community, I don't know, I don't

383
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.759
know if anyone else is really like
that, who can kind of carry that

384
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:02.079
type of gravitas. You yeah,
you know what you, and you make

385
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:06.200
a good point because you know,
the good and the evil and upology.

386
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:15.640
It's kind of seemed like, oh, hello, yeah, sorry about that.

387
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:19.519
I'm gonna have to make a note
fix that. But there's just some

388
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:27.759
background make a note at the time. Okay, yeah, you know it's

389
00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:32.440
there's kind of the good and the
evil there where there's this Stanton versus the

390
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:37.640
field class. But what your the
example you gave is kind of this good

391
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.200
natured ribbing where you don't really have
that kind of the The people on either

392
00:30:42.279 --> 00:30:48.359
side these days, especially online,
are are typically going at it and being

393
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:53.079
very cruel and mean to each other
often. I think I think that's a

394
00:30:53.119 --> 00:31:02.160
sign maybe of of what's changed.
You know. I think Stanton took the

395
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:08.519
phenomenon seriously, but he didn't take
it too seriously. You know, he

396
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:15.319
left room in there to laugh about
it and realize that, you know,

397
00:31:17.200 --> 00:31:19.880
it's just UFOs. Let's relax,
you know, that type of mentality that's

398
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:25.720
a more relaxed This isn't the be
all and the end all and everything.

399
00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:27.519
I mean. He was also a
family man, right, He had you

400
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:30.920
know, wife, kids, so
at the end of the day, he

401
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.680
had other things in his life.
That were more important than the UFO phenomenon

402
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:41.240
to him. And I think that
that's what maybe for some researchers, especially

403
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.720
for the researchers who who are online, the UFOs have become sort of an

404
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:56.039
all consuming facet. Everything to them
is UFOs and they've forgotten to just sort

405
00:31:56.039 --> 00:32:00.200
of laugh at things sometimes, Like
you say that good natured ribbing is no

406
00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:09.559
longer just good natured ribbing. It's
viewed as assault and it's viewed as harassment,

407
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.440
right when in reality, you know, it's just UFOs. Right,

408
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:21.200
let's just relax a little bit.
We don't need to take everything so seriously.

409
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:22.319
We need to able to laugh at
ourselves, and we need to go

410
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.559
a laugh at the phenomenon a little
bit, because at the end of the

411
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.079
day, it is a little absurd
and it is a little silly, and

412
00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.839
that's just part of it. That's
just part of the phenomenon, is just

413
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:36.759
part of the whole game, exactly. I think that you've put that very

414
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:42.200
very well and which kind of gets
us to your book. So your book's

415
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:46.000
been out for about a month now
and it's called the UFO People. On

416
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:52.160
the cover is another icon who,
unfortunately I never got to meet before he

417
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:55.920
passed away. Who is doctor j
Allen Heinik Who? Fortunately the public it's

418
00:32:55.920 --> 00:33:01.079
getting to know more through the History
Channel show. But you know, in

419
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:05.359
a nutshell, if someone asked you
especially, and I'm sure they will and

420
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.599
in these interviews they probably do,
I mean, who are the UFO people?

421
00:33:09.640 --> 00:33:14.240
Yeah, this is this is sort
of a really difficult question to answer

422
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:20.480
because the whole the purpose of the
book is to try to figure out really

423
00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:23.200
what the UFO community is about,
or at least to sort of paint as

424
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:29.359
good a picture as possible. And
what the book does, it problematizes our

425
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:34.759
interpretation of what it means to be
a subculture or to be a community.

426
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:40.359
There really is no dividing line that
separates sort of the UFO community or the

427
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:46.920
UFO people from really other groups.
It gets really blurry. And not only

428
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:54.759
that, there's no real body or
organization that governs our subculture, right we

429
00:33:54.839 --> 00:34:01.240
have, our identity is very fluid
and around a lot and all of that

430
00:34:01.319 --> 00:34:07.319
it mixes in with other communities.
So I know a lot of paranormal investigators

431
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:09.679
who are interested in UFOs. Does
that make them part of the UFO community.

432
00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:14.559
I know a lot of cryptozoologists who
are interested in UFOs. I know

433
00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:19.559
a lot of UFO enthusiasts who are
interested in Bigfoot. So ultimately, you

434
00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.800
know, there's a lot of this
intermixing. And what we find is the

435
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:28.039
UFO community or the UFO people is
the sort of large, very blurry mix

436
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:35.119
of people who we can kind of
compartmentalize into smaller groups or smaller subcultures.

437
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:39.840
But again, it is no hard
and fast line, and the book kind

438
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:46.039
of ultimately tries to call into question
the very notion of ought there to be

439
00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:52.840
a differentiation between a UFO community and
just the general public or the mainstream.

440
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:57.199
Right. We often paint that line, we say, you know, no,

441
00:34:57.280 --> 00:35:00.320
there is a UFO subculture, there
is a UFO community, there's the

442
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.719
mainstream public. And the book kind
of challenges that notion. The book calls

443
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:10.360
into question the validity of that claim
and whether the mainstream is actually more involved

444
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:15.079
in in the UFO discourse than we
care to think, and the UFO community

445
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:21.360
is much more involved in the mainstream. And fundamentally, how do we coexist

446
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.239
and how do we work together and
function together. So that's one big aspect

447
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:30.000
of the book that I try to
address, which you know, I love

448
00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:36.239
that, and right now, I
think that this perspective or this this examination

449
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.599
is even more important because it seems
as though there is kind of a crisis

450
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:47.039
of identity of this group because you're
making this argument that you know, you

451
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:52.000
all are more mainstream than you realize, and there are more mainstream in this

452
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:54.679
than than you may realize, where
it seems like there are a lot of

453
00:35:54.679 --> 00:36:00.400
people rebelling against that idea who are
like, no, I'm a UFO person,

454
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:02.480
I'm the one with the knowledge and
they don't know what I know,

455
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.840
right, And the book clearly sort
of draws that into that sort of draws

456
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:15.239
that idea out. You know,
when you kind of look at the mythologies

457
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.679
that exist in the mainstream about the
UFO community and the UPHO phenomenon itself,

458
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.559
and then when you look at the
mythologies that exist sort of about UFOs within

459
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:27.679
the UFO community itself as well,
we realize that these mythologies kind of bounce

460
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:32.199
off one another. They're sort of
symbiotic, right that world events, media,

461
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.239
culture, books, TV, internet, you know, posters, whatever,

462
00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:43.079
all really tie into how we've interpreted
the UFO phenomenon to be. And

463
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:47.960
we often compartmentalize the UFO phenomenon in
all of its strangeness, into little boxes

464
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:52.239
to try and make it make sense. So, you know, we like

465
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.719
the notion of the grays, for
example, because they're easy to understand versus

466
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:02.559
sort of a more complicated, overarching
forhomenon that's kind of universal or or archetypal

467
00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:07.159
in some way that we can't really
master or get a grasp on. You

468
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:13.079
know, I can understand the humanoid, I can't understand some weird mystical phenomena

469
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:17.199
doesn't make sense, But often the
UFO enigma occurs in weird mystical ways,

470
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.840
and sometimes it occurs in just a
simple kind of gray showing up on your

471
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:27.440
front door. So, you know, we need to uncompartmentalize ourselves, and

472
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:34.760
we need to uncompartmentalize our ideology around
the phenomenon to start making sense of it.

473
00:37:35.639 --> 00:37:39.400
And the book goes into how media
and how language and how culture and

474
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:45.199
how economics and politics, how history
all ties into the shaping of the UFO

475
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:51.000
as an idea, and then how
our community has kind of processed this mythology

476
00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:59.199
over the decades. Yeah, I
and it's so interesting that you say that,

477
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:04.199
And you know, I know that
because we've talked before. You gravitate

478
00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.280
towards this, this idea of you
know, things are more complicated. There

479
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:10.760
could be more answers out there,
but it is, you know, in

480
00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.159
the UFO community, and I think
there people say this almost its exact thing.

481
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:19.639
Why do we have to re examine
because we already know, you know,

482
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.480
they've kind of fitted into this Star
Trek world. We know there's a

483
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:27.639
reptilians, there's these guys, there's
the Grays, and here's what they're doing

484
00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.800
and why we already know this,
So why do you have to question it?

485
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:34.639
And they get frustrated when they're like, well, do we really know

486
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:38.440
that? You know? No,
yeah, I agree. It's when you

487
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:45.880
really start to to look at these
ideas. You know, obviously you see

488
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:50.559
them appearing in the media. You
see them appearing in film and television and

489
00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:55.800
in books and magazines and comic books
before and aff like sort of simultaneously as

490
00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:59.719
they enter into the UFO community,
right, you kind of see these ideas

491
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:07.039
merging and meshing. You know,
we have you know, action comics or

492
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:10.320
whatever, you know, told stories
about strange aliens with large gray heads.

493
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:13.920
You know, in the nineteen twenties, well before sort of grays became a

494
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:21.760
thing. So we can kind of
question, you're right, how do we

495
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:27.280
know that the reptilians are real or
that there's an alien human hybrid program?

496
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:34.039
Like, how do we know this? Right? And I think what we

497
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.639
can kind of rest on is people
are having experiences, right, So people

498
00:39:37.639 --> 00:39:44.159
are experiencing these strange things. People
are experiencing being taken by insect like aliens

499
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:51.159
or Nordic looking type aliens or whatever. But are those experiences objectively true in

500
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.400
the sense that they're seeing sort of
the objective reality of the situation, or

501
00:39:54.559 --> 00:40:01.039
are these experiences occurring but they're being
filtered through various mediums such as language and

502
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:08.639
culture and society and just like almost
a hyperreal interpretation of the objectives. So

503
00:40:08.679 --> 00:40:14.079
the brain is filtering information to make
it make sense, because what this individual

504
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:20.559
is actually dealing with is so far
removed from the human equation that it's nonsensical.

505
00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:23.920
It doesn't compute in the human mind. So the human mind has to

506
00:40:24.039 --> 00:40:29.679
create a sort of a false reality. Let's say you know, that's one

507
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:34.079
potential interpretation or the other interpretation is
held there could be reptilians running around for

508
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:38.239
all we know, and they are
right. I don't know, but unfortunately

509
00:40:38.239 --> 00:40:44.079
there's not enough evidence out there to
kind of rest your laurels on either thing.

510
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:46.760
We're still in kind of heavy speculation
mode, as Valet sort of says,

511
00:40:46.760 --> 00:40:52.760
we haven't really done the basic work
yet to get to affirm understanding and

512
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:59.360
grounding in what's actually going on.
So when somebody tells me, you know,

513
00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.880
the reptilia are real, I kind
of say, okay, maybe,

514
00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:06.920
but have you considered that? And
then you know, dot dot dot.

515
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.880
I can go down a lot of
different paths with that person, and maybe

516
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.199
one of the paths is Yep,
reptilians are real, but they might not

517
00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.719
be, and they might be dealing
with something else entirely. And what you

518
00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:22.159
saw was a reptilian, but it
might not have actually been a reptilian.

519
00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:30.559
You know what I mean? Right? And it is well, your influent

520
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:34.880
is so is Vallet a big influence
for you? Yeah? I would say

521
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:42.119
Valet and Keel are both incredible influences
for me because they they I think,

522
00:41:42.280 --> 00:41:49.199
create the most sort of I don't
know, the most sensical hypothesis of the

523
00:41:49.239 --> 00:41:52.559
phenomenon, because I believe the phenomenon
exists, like I do believe that that

524
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:58.599
UFOs are an objective thing that exists
outside of us. Some sort of intelligence

525
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.320
is responsible for them, whatever it
is. So I'm willing to go there,

526
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:06.559
like I'm willing to go to weird
things happen and it's not us.

527
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:10.960
I'm willing to stand on that stone. But after that, like beyond that

528
00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.400
stone, I don't know where to
go, right I'm not going to go

529
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.400
down the road of its aliens for
another planet. I'm not going to go

530
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:22.480
down the road that it's interdimensional beings
from some other dimension. The only road

531
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:27.920
that I can kind of see myself
going down is that we're dealing with some

532
00:42:27.960 --> 00:42:30.559
sort of control system, as Valet
would argue, or some sort of large

533
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:36.159
paranormal system, as Valet would say, or we're dealing with with some sort

534
00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:39.880
of intelligence that is maybe you know, been with us forever and it sort

535
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.559
of exists on a separate dimension.
I don't know. Like again, right,

536
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:45.519
like, these are sort of odd
roads to go down, but these

537
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:49.000
are the only ones that kind of
make sense to me because I've investigated UFO

538
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:53.719
reports that range from just lights in
the sky to sort of just regular prosaic

539
00:42:53.800 --> 00:43:00.360
kind of events to aliens, two
people seeing man sized rabbits hop out of

540
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:07.119
orbs. So you know, I've
investigated some weird, high strangeness stuff and

541
00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:09.599
to suggest it's kind of one option
or the other doesn't make sense to me,

542
00:43:10.119 --> 00:43:15.599
because something's wrong then, right,
like these aliens are then messing with

543
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:22.639
us. I don't know. Yeah, well, and I think what's interesting

544
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:27.039
and what you're describing is I think
really important. So for instance, you

545
00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:32.480
know, there's kind of two areas. There's the unknown, and we can

546
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:37.960
either make a mythology out of it, so we're comfortable that we know everything,

547
00:43:37.639 --> 00:43:40.679
or we can be more socratic about
it. And that's kind of the

548
00:43:40.719 --> 00:43:44.360
other side, which is you're never
going to know. We don't know.

549
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:46.599
You think you know this, you
don't really know that, which is kind

550
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:52.199
of where the territory Valley and Keel, especially Keel moved into, which is

551
00:43:52.239 --> 00:43:55.079
not necessarily a bad thing because in
the middle you have science, and there's

552
00:43:55.119 --> 00:44:00.559
a danger to resting on your laurels, believing you know the truth when you

553
00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:07.599
don't, even when the truth often
and the research often leads you down some

554
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:13.320
weird roads like you're talking about.
Because these weird stories, some of them

555
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:17.159
very credible they happen, you know, we hear these really odd stories.

556
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.519
Yeah, I agree, and that's
why we have to, like you say,

557
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:24.599
it remain socratic. And that's a
great term to use, and that's

558
00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:29.760
where I tend to stand, I
think, because fundamentally, you know,

559
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:31.800
we don't know, and we have
to keep asking questions, and we have

560
00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:37.280
to remain vigilant, and we have
to remain critical. I'll never go to

561
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:40.440
someone and say, listen, you
didn't have that experience, right, because

562
00:44:40.920 --> 00:44:45.920
I'm not one qualified to give them
Like I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist,

563
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:50.639
so I can't. I'm not inssarly
qualified to deal with that. So

564
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.760
I will hear their story, and
I'll record their story, and I'll treat

565
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:57.079
their story with the respect deserves.
It's sort of their truth at the time.

566
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:04.119
But I'm also not good going to
adjust my personal philosophy or my personal

567
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:06.960
opinion on the matter because of one
story. Right, It's going to take

568
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:10.800
a lot more, a lot more
evidence for me to do that. You're

569
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:15.440
really gonna have to convince me.
And I'm going to require something beyond just

570
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:21.119
storytelling and you know, mythology to
do that. So you know, I

571
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:23.079
don't want to come off sounding like
a skeptic, because I'm not a skeptic.

572
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:27.239
I will, like I said,
listen, and I will be respectful

573
00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:30.280
and I will hear you out because
you know, if you experience something,

574
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:35.960
you experience something. I'm not going
to contradict that. But I'm also not

575
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:37.320
going to kind of throw the baby
out with the bathwater here, right.

576
00:45:37.440 --> 00:45:42.199
We need to we need to remain
critical because the problem is once we stop

577
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:46.400
being critical, we start believing everything. And that's why people believe there's reptilians

578
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:52.320
in the Antarctica and they're controlling the
American government, and like you know,

579
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:57.679
we go down this rabbit hole of
sort of conspiratorial insanity. And that's a

580
00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:00.199
problem. It makes us as a
community, you know, assuming there's a

581
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:07.800
UFO community, it makes us look
foolish when when these voices become the popular

582
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:12.360
voices. M h. And that's
I think, you know, that's what

583
00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:16.480
I love about this more intellectual kind
of examination of all of this because there

584
00:46:16.519 --> 00:46:21.159
are it is grey, and all
of this is so complicated, no pen

585
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:27.679
intended, but you know it's very
complicated in that you know, terms and

586
00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:32.039
memes can arrive and these things kind
of influence the way we think about things

587
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:38.760
and the way and then they can
galvanize communities. Whereas, like you mentioned

588
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:42.199
earlier, and I think you have
a good argument that you know, to

589
00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:45.320
say there's a UFO community, as
if there's this community of people and we

590
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.159
all have figured something out. That's
not true at all, because as much

591
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:53.400
as there are those who are convinced, you know, oh, there are

592
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:58.039
grays inside of that group, you've
got you know, oh that we've got

593
00:46:58.039 --> 00:47:00.480
these grays. They are so wonderful
and they're here to help us. And

594
00:47:00.519 --> 00:47:02.000
then you have the other side.
No, they're evil and they're trying to

595
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:07.000
kill us, and they're both absolutely
convinced, and they're both fairly large groups.

596
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:14.760
The point being that you know that
that it's hard to call, you

597
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:20.400
know, a group like that,
a community with such varying ideas and such

598
00:47:20.440 --> 00:47:25.599
hard stances with those ideas. No, I agree, and that's that's part

599
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:31.039
of it, right, There is
no there's no agreement. Right, there's

600
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:39.800
no there's no unified notion of what
the UFO is or what the source of

601
00:47:39.960 --> 00:47:44.679
UPO phenomenon is. I think we
all we do have an identity though,

602
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:47.440
so even those people who who say
the grades are evil or the grades are

603
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:50.880
good or whatever. We all kind
of have a common identity. I think

604
00:47:50.920 --> 00:47:54.039
we all speak a similar language.
We all understand what everyone's talking about.

605
00:47:54.119 --> 00:47:58.480
So you know, when we talk, you know, if somebody says zetan,

606
00:47:58.599 --> 00:48:00.840
we know what we mean by that
term, or somebody says, you

607
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:05.760
know, Eve, we know what
that means. Right, we all we

608
00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:09.480
all share a similar lexicon of terms, so we are able to communicate as

609
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:14.559
a subculture does. So there are
some aspects to us that are very subcultural

610
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:19.119
and the most sort of cultural study
sense, a very traditional sense jargon being

611
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:25.320
one. We all also, I
think kind of share a common mistrust of

612
00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:29.519
authority. I think to at least
to some extent, you know what I

613
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.880
mean, all of us are willing
to go down that well, you know,

614
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:37.119
maybe something is you know, and
it ranges right to people who are

615
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:40.880
full out the government is bad and
they're arming themselves, you know, on

616
00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.639
like this conspiratorial level, to you
know, people like me who generally trust

617
00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:51.440
the government but kind of don't because
you know, they've done some dubious things

618
00:48:51.440 --> 00:48:54.480
in the past. So you know, we kind of all have this this

619
00:48:54.559 --> 00:49:00.079
kind of counter cultural bend to us, right, we all kind of look

620
00:49:00.119 --> 00:49:07.280
awry at the regular daily world,
at our government of authority, and we

621
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:10.440
kind of recognize that something, you
know, maybe fishy, is going on

622
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:15.679
at the very least. So,
you know, when we talk about the

623
00:49:15.719 --> 00:49:20.760
subculture as being sort of in constant
conflict, it is true. It's basically

624
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:27.039
an anarchy, but there are these
little segments of similarities that we can work

625
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:30.840
together on. It's funny. This
year's Contact in the Desert is a perfect

626
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:35.199
example, you know what. Hold
on to that because I was thinking it'd

627
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:37.599
be great if we can start applying
examples. But we've got to go to

628
00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:42.559
break right now, so we'll be
right back with MJ. Benias right after

629
00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:45.480
this break. Those would you listening
on the radio, we'll here at some

630
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:49.440
commercials. The rest we'll hear a
short musical interlude. Hang on tight,

631
00:49:49.519 --> 00:50:10.800
we'll be right back with Open Mind
UFO Radio. Welcome back to Open Mind

632
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:15.639
UFO Radio. I am having I
had a delightful conversation last time you were

633
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:19.280
on, but I'm loving this as
well. We're talking to m J.

634
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:23.760
Baniyas and we're actually you know,
you were talking about Contact in the Desert

635
00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:28.119
and I think that'll be fun.
It's to kind of practically apply some of

636
00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:32.159
the things that are happening right now
and how they apply to how you're looking

637
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:36.639
at things. But you were about
to say, how Contacted in the Desert

638
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.440
is an example of what you were
just describing, right, So when we

639
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:45.880
look at the range of ideas within
the UFO community, sort of, you

640
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:49.840
know, like I mentioned earlier,
it was it's sort of an anarchy.

641
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:52.960
However, you know, we do
share similarities. Contact in the Desert is

642
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:57.400
the sort of perfect example, especially
this year's Contact in the Desert, where

643
00:50:57.400 --> 00:51:04.079
you have individuals who are on sort
of one side, individuals such as David

644
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:09.239
Wilcock, Corey Good sharing sort of
the same conference with with individuals like Jacques

645
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:15.320
Vallet and the people who will attend
this conference, and there's like Contact in

646
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:22.880
the Desert is huge. Everyone sort
of While there are issues between these two

647
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:29.519
notions, like in no way does
Jacques Valet agree with David Wilcock, they're

648
00:51:29.559 --> 00:51:37.360
they're they're not diametrically opposed, but
they're pretty close, everyone still kind of

649
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:43.679
gets along, right, We all
still kind of go We all talk about

650
00:51:43.719 --> 00:51:50.159
our our experiences or that our research
and generally there's no real bad blood.

651
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:54.920
While we might you know, not
like each other and spit vitriol at each

652
00:51:54.920 --> 00:52:00.320
other on the internet, generally it's
it's relatively a peaceful area. Like there's

653
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:06.079
no initially fist fights breaking out in
the halls of the resort because you don't

654
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:10.079
believe in the reptilians and you know, you're a cabalist in the deep state,

655
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:16.159
Like that doesn't happen, right,
at least not recently. So,

656
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:22.679
so we do have some semblance of
unification. We all kind of coexist together.

657
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:29.360
We all speak similar languages, we
all engage with each other. Do

658
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:31.480
you hear a whistling right now?
Sorry? Yeah, do do do do

659
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:36.800
do doo? That's my washing machine. Well, you know what, it

660
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:38.440
reminds me of what you're describing here, which makes a lot of sense.

661
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:42.320
It makes me think of a couple
of things. First of all, it

662
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.920
makes me think of you know,
you'll have let's say, George Knapp there

663
00:52:45.199 --> 00:52:49.719
or is a great example, and
then the next speaker will come on and

664
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.079
talk about how the media is all
corrupted and you know, all of the

665
00:52:52.199 --> 00:52:57.719
UFO stories in the media are the
MG twelve is dictating, and you know,

666
00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:00.679
we just heard from George Knap,
Would you describe how he came up

667
00:53:00.719 --> 00:53:04.440
with his stories. It also reminds
me of you know, some of the

668
00:53:04.519 --> 00:53:10.039
younger people won't remember bugs Bunny shows, but there was the wily coyote and

669
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:14.119
the sheep dog. Of course,
the wily kio is trying to get the

670
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:17.159
sheep and the sheep dogs beating him
up and everything. But then the whistle

671
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:21.719
would blow and they would go to
the time clock and they would clock in

672
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:24.880
and say hello to each other.
It's so funny. Well, and it's

673
00:53:24.880 --> 00:53:29.920
so true, right, I mean
literally the conference. UFO conferences are quite

674
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:35.360
interesting because you will have speakers sort
of totally disagree with each other, and

675
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:37.639
then at times I wonder, you
know, the audience just kind of sits

676
00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:40.519
there on like nods and smiles during
both and You're like, wait, how

677
00:53:40.519 --> 00:53:45.400
do you agree with these? I'm
confused. They're both saying the opposite things.

678
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:49.039
I don't understand why you agree,
you know. So, yeah,

679
00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:52.239
I do find it Numeorlesus at times, that is the one that really gets

680
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.960
me. I mean, people will
go to election, yeah, and this

681
00:53:55.000 --> 00:53:59.119
will be a guy who will be
talking about well using the example that I

682
00:53:59.159 --> 00:54:01.159
was using before who will talk about, Oh, the Grays are real.

683
00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:06.039
I've met them and I've talked to
them, and they're they're wonderful and they're

684
00:54:06.079 --> 00:54:07.960
helping us out and here's what they've
done to help us throughout history. And

685
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.840
people will come out and go,
oh, my gosh, that was absolutely

686
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:15.679
amazing. And then they'll come out
of the next lecture and this lecture just

687
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:17.400
said, oh, the Grays are
evil, they're screwing us, they're doing

688
00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:20.800
all this terrible stuff to us,
and they'll come out, oh, my

689
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.639
gosh, I talk was amazing,
and I'll ask people, well, how

690
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:28.760
can you the last speaker was saying
that this person is wrong and there's no

691
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:31.639
way that they're right and had a
totally different view, and people will just

692
00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:34.880
kind of look at you and just
say, well, I don't know,

693
00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:39.639
I think there could be truth to
both, right, And that's what really

694
00:54:39.719 --> 00:54:46.639
That is truly a correct usage of
the term of the where you believe two

695
00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:58.920
different things and they're both completely opposite
of each other. Cognitive dissonance exactly.

696
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.199
And you know people throw that term
around all the time, but they completely

697
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:06.440
misuse it. They say, oh, there's cognitive dissonance because we know aliens

698
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:08.119
are real of it. People don't
believe it, and it's like, no,

699
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:12.320
you know, people don't know that. That's why. It's when you

700
00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:17.119
absolutely believe in two different opposite things, that's when things get screwy. It's

701
00:55:17.199 --> 00:55:22.320
it's really funny, it's it's but
again, it's it's the community and just

702
00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:29.119
the way I think we function.
Like I said, we at times want

703
00:55:29.239 --> 00:55:34.800
to stick together because we have this
fear that that there's sort of this larger

704
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:38.760
group outside of us, the sort
of mainstream public, that that that is

705
00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:45.440
on the attack, and it's not
honestly true. But we we you know,

706
00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:50.400
cultures will will clump together to for
sort of out of self preservation.

707
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:53.480
So I think that that happens even
though once we're all together inside the group,

708
00:55:53.599 --> 00:55:58.039
we we like start to fight with
one another, right which which you

709
00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.880
sort of see all the time in
the OVOL community. Sort of conflict that

710
00:56:00.920 --> 00:56:07.800
arise between individuals and often over just
like like we were talking about much earlier,

711
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:14.280
class and freedman, you know,
over some ribbing that occurs and it

712
00:56:14.320 --> 00:56:17.360
blows up into all out war where
lines are being drawn and you need to

713
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:21.920
pick a side and you're either with
us here against us, and you know,

714
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:24.119
if you don't believe in what we
believe in, will name and shame

715
00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:30.119
you, and like there's it becomes
quite bad. Mm hmm Yep, I've

716
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:32.800
been named and shamed. Have you
been name and shamed? Sure? You

717
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:36.440
help? I'm sure I have.
Yeah. You know, once in a

718
00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:39.039
while you say things on a podcast
or something and then people go after you

719
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:43.440
and you're like, Okay, relax
and then you know that that didn't help.

720
00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:45.880
Like when you tell people to relax, it doesn't they don't relaxing.

721
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:51.519
Yeah, there's no winning, you
know what you and you know there's another

722
00:56:51.639 --> 00:56:53.760
faction of this that I'd love to
hear your perspective on too. So getting

723
00:56:53.800 --> 00:56:58.239
back to Vallet Vallet, you know, there's a talk I do on religion

724
00:56:58.320 --> 00:57:02.079
and UFOs and I'm essentially drawing similarities. And Vallet had a great point all

725
00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:06.480
the way back in the seventies when
that he addressed the UN He said,

726
00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:09.000
the government really has to take the
lead on the research and all of this,

727
00:57:09.079 --> 00:57:15.360
because if you don't, then the
mythologists and the conspiracists they're all just

728
00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:17.719
going to make stuff up and we're
going to have UFO religions and we're going

729
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:22.280
to have a lot of confusion out
there that'll be generated from the public if

730
00:57:22.320 --> 00:57:28.320
you don't get involved in kind of
help guide the public. But nowadays,

731
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.679
coming into the present, that may
be viewed as a bit of a naive

732
00:57:31.800 --> 00:57:36.960
kind of perception that we would want
to trust the government. And then here

733
00:57:37.039 --> 00:57:42.360
comes the government, Here comes Luelizondo
and a tip and the Navy saying we're

734
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.599
going to do, you know,
create these UFO guidelines. So now you

735
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:49.960
have a third party that is kind
of trying to guide us. But is

736
00:57:50.079 --> 00:57:53.519
this third party a guiding light or
is it you know it, can this

737
00:57:53.639 --> 00:58:00.440
voice be completely trusted? Right?
Yeah? You know it's really murky because

738
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:08.400
a huge aspect of the conspiratorial sort
of anti government nature of the UFO discourse,

739
00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:12.960
A good chunk of it didn't all
start, but a good chunk of

740
00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:17.159
it began in the nineteen eighties after
the whole Dodie Benewitz Bill Moore thing.

741
00:58:19.440 --> 00:58:23.920
You had a huge sort of uproar
in the UFO community because one of their

742
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:30.800
own was used as a sort of
active disinformation agents and spy. Basically Bill

743
00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:36.440
Moore sort of admitted and I think
was eighty nine, So you had a

744
00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:45.199
whole group of the UFO sort of
enthusiasts and researchers who went through this era

745
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:53.519
where massive distrust was formed for the
government because the belief was that the government

746
00:58:53.599 --> 00:59:00.199
purposely disinforms the public on the UFO
phenomenon. Tie that in with every single

747
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:07.639
kind of tropish mythology of alien bodies
and bunkers, you know, Delta,

748
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:15.519
New Mexico being some massive underground cavernous
you know base where aliens gun to laser

749
00:59:15.559 --> 00:59:22.440
gun fights with marines like you know
whatever. Right, Like this massive strange

750
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:29.159
collection of myths and stories spun out
in the nineteen eighties to form really what

751
00:59:29.239 --> 00:59:34.079
we're dealing with. I think today
there's always been mistrust. Kiho talked about

752
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:37.800
it, but it wasn't to the
same effect, I don't think as as

753
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:44.920
it occurred in the eighties and into
now. And really what occurred in the

754
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:50.440
late eighties into the nineties was really
the seeds of the disclosure movement. Right,

755
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.639
the government knows everything, not only
that they have bodies, they have

756
00:59:54.440 --> 01:00:00.039
you know, they have downed UFOs
that they've recovered at crash sites, and

757
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:05.079
they're storing them and they're reverse engineering
them, and the whole Bob Blazar thing,

758
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:08.400
right, Like, really you got
to the seeds of this notion of

759
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:14.079
disclosure really started to sort of plant
and take a root in the eighties and

760
01:00:14.119 --> 01:00:16.360
the nineties, and now we're dealing
with the full blown plant, right,

761
01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:20.360
Like, we're dealing with actually a
forest that is disclosure right now, this

762
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:29.599
disclosure movement right extra politics, And
you know, it's really tough to pull

763
01:00:29.639 --> 01:00:35.239
yourself out of that history because ultimately
our culture is formed by that history.

764
01:00:35.480 --> 01:00:42.800
The UFO community is formulated by those
historical ideas, and now we're having to

765
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:47.840
try and disassociate ourselves from that.
No one wants to be another Benowitz,

766
01:00:49.079 --> 01:00:52.480
right, And no one wants to
bump into another Doty, Sorry Richard,

767
01:00:53.159 --> 01:00:59.639
but no one does, right,
No one wants to become that guy.

768
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:04.920
Yeah, so we we there's a
lot of caution, I think in the

769
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:09.079
UFO community because we've been duped before. We've been duped since the fifties,

770
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:15.800
but we've been duped before, and
it really stung in the eighties. So

771
01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:21.800
so I can imagine why some UFO
researchers, especially those who lived through the

772
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:24.400
eighties, and we're really into UFOs
in the eighties and we're kind of part

773
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:30.079
of that that that collection of people
are are going to remain hesitant and are

774
01:01:30.119 --> 01:01:35.239
going to remain cautious with this whole
A tip you know, to the stars

775
01:01:35.920 --> 01:01:42.360
thing. The younger generation, people
like myself who were not involved in the

776
01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:45.679
eighties, that's history. To me, It's a history lesson. It's not

777
01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:50.960
something I experienced personally. So so
you know, I'm going to approach it

778
01:01:50.960 --> 01:01:55.000
from a different angle. Potentially,
I'm not going to have the same reservations.

779
01:01:55.760 --> 01:01:59.280
However, I'm also not, you
know, an idiot, and I'm

780
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:02.519
not going to nationally approach it blindly
either and just you know, jump into

781
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:07.960
the pool without looking what's in the
water first. So so I think,

782
01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:13.559
you know, you know, you're
to get the long way around here to

783
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:16.599
your question. To answer it is
there's there there needs to sort of still

784
01:02:16.599 --> 01:02:20.920
be vigilance. I think I think
we still need to kind of be critical.

785
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:24.039
We need to be open minded that
we're not being duped or this isn't

786
01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:28.760
some sort of government thing. But
you know, we also need to kind

787
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:32.280
of pay attention to the history that
that's that's been with the UFO community for

788
01:02:32.280 --> 01:02:38.639
a long time. There is a
history of disinformation and manipulation, to to

789
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:45.079
manage the message to manuf as Gnome
Chomsky says, to manufacture our consent,

790
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:49.719
because ultimately that's kind of what a
lot of UFO discourse is, right,

791
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:53.400
You're manufacturing stories so that we buy
into them, right, and then we

792
01:02:53.400 --> 01:03:00.079
we chase that goose versus sort of
the actual objective. Right, that makes

793
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:05.960
sense? Yeah, And what inspired
you to do this? What inspired you

794
01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:10.719
to write the book? Well,
in university, my my background is in

795
01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:16.960
culture studies and critical theory and philosophy
and history. So my interest is in

796
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:22.760
how communities form and how cultures form. And I've always kind of been into

797
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.840
UFOs and science fiction and that kind
of thing. So it was kind of

798
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:30.199
just a natural progression for me.
I met some interesting people. I met

799
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:34.400
Chris Rakowski, who kind of pushed
me into this world. I started doing

800
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:37.280
research, realized how interesting it was, and and that, you know,

801
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:40.719
the UFO community was a very unique
subculture. I am prepared to argue,

802
01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:45.440
and I do argue in the book
that the UFO community is is unlike all

803
01:03:45.519 --> 01:03:54.440
other subcultures because we're not just we're
not just about UFOs. There's a whole

804
01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:59.239
bunch of other stuff going on.
With the UFO community. There's there's religious

805
01:03:59.280 --> 01:04:02.920
like you said earlier, sort of
religious component, there's a philosophical component,

806
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:08.360
there's an economic component, there's a
political component. So when we compare ourselves

807
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:15.199
to other subcultures, not many have
the same not many have had the same

808
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:19.719
sort of varied array of ideologies and
and and I sort of things that structure

809
01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:25.280
identity like we do. So I
argue sort of towards the end of the

810
01:04:25.280 --> 01:04:29.039
book that we need to look at
the UFO subculture differently. We are not

811
01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.840
a subculture per se, but we're
actually and I refer to us as sort

812
01:04:31.840 --> 01:04:38.079
of I sort of use the term
where an exoculture, because it's not that

813
01:04:38.119 --> 01:04:42.440
we're alien in any way, but
we sort of mirror this alien in a

814
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:46.519
sense. We are other. We're
so othered from the mainstream. We kind

815
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:50.199
of challenge the mainstream and toss it
on its head and force it to kind

816
01:04:50.199 --> 01:04:55.519
of look at itself because we almost
represent it in some weird mirror way.

817
01:04:56.039 --> 01:04:58.079
So I don't want to spoil too
much about the book, but that's kind

818
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:02.039
of where the book concludes, that
we are so different from other subcultures that

819
01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.760
we can't really refer to ourselves as
a subculture. See, And I think

820
01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:10.639
that's a great argument because something of
course I'm thinking of all the time in

821
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:15.159
positioning, you know, where we
position ourselves and how do I position myself

822
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:18.679
or how with open minds, how
do we position open minds trying to be

823
01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:26.800
a journalistic organization that is more akin
to organizations that are not in the UFO

824
01:05:26.840 --> 01:05:30.440
community, that are you know,
news organizations. And I even find that

825
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:35.360
kind of dichotomy with my fellow people
in the press, where it's kind of

826
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:41.280
like, uh, you know when
it luckily they're they're usually very open,

827
01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:45.679
especially the publicians and stuff, but
scientists not so much. It's kind of

828
01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:49.639
like they do see a difference between
UFO people and other people, and it's

829
01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:55.039
very odd. And even as you're
speaking, I'm thinking of what are other

830
01:05:55.199 --> 01:06:00.719
groups that are similar, and I
can't think of one. Yeah, no,

831
01:06:00.719 --> 01:06:03.119
no, I would say, there's
there's not really other There's no,

832
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:10.480
there's not many other subcultures that have
in their sort of structure of identity something

833
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:12.840
that could potentially invade the planet,
you know what I mean, Like,

834
01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:16.480
no one's really dealing with that in
their subculture. So we have sort of

835
01:06:16.519 --> 01:06:25.039
incredible political ideologies present in our subculture, and we often lap in these incredible

836
01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:30.239
conspiratorial communities. Right. The QAnon
conspiracies has some has somehow kind of integrated

837
01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:35.039
into the UFO community. Right.
You have sort of the Deep State and

838
01:06:35.559 --> 01:06:43.960
sort of Cabbalism and Luciferianism integrating itself
into the UFO community. Right, So

839
01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:49.400
we're we're this odd community of individuals
who have this sort of weird stuff kind

840
01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:53.320
of constantly popping into it. And
like I said, it often does have

841
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:57.000
political movements. There's there's I was
signing to someone recently, there's the UFO.

842
01:06:58.079 --> 01:07:00.079
He's a UFO guy. He's kind
of an enthusiast, but he talks

843
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:04.719
about how like Marxism and communism and
socialism are starting to kind of very highly

844
01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:12.039
leftist ideology starting to kind of find
themselves into UFO communities. So, you

845
01:07:12.039 --> 01:07:15.840
know, we we we're evolving and
we're changing. It's an interesting little community

846
01:07:15.880 --> 01:07:21.079
we live in. It's sort of
growing. I mean, it's morphing.

847
01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:27.760
It's kind of like as it it
this information, especially this new more credible

848
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:31.400
information. As a navy adopts,
you know, kind of a pro UFO

849
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:38.880
stance. It seems like the concept
of this community kind of grows and at

850
01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:41.480
the same time, and maybe this
is a fear with a lot of people

851
01:07:42.280 --> 01:07:47.559
dissipates in a way as far as
it's cohesiveness. Sure, yeah, I

852
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:50.800
agree. I think if I think
if to the Stars has has sort of

853
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:58.880
shown us anything, it's that as
technology improves, especially in regards to military

854
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:03.760
technology, we're starting to get evidence
now of of potential you know, UFO

855
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:11.400
events or or paranormal incidents that can't
just be written off as as a pilot

856
01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:15.159
seeing something or as you know,
a radar operative who just didn't get too

857
01:08:15.239 --> 01:08:18.800
much just who hasn't gotten enough sleep, right, Like, now there's enough

858
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:23.840
technology now that we're starting to track
a lot of the stuff and we're getting

859
01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:28.279
a lot of corroberative evidence of different
phenomena. You know, we can you

860
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:30.960
know, I'm sure we can have
a debate as to you know, the

861
01:08:30.039 --> 01:08:35.199
validity of some of these cases.
But regardless, what's not in question is

862
01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:43.079
we're getting a lot better at tracking
stuff and seeing stuff. All of our

863
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:50.640
technology is getting much more conducive to
seeing stuff that it shouldn't see. Right,

864
01:08:51.880 --> 01:08:55.520
So, so this is going to
definitely change the UFO. The UFO

865
01:08:55.600 --> 01:09:02.079
discourse. Right, The TTSAS as
a cultural movement has shifted the discourse already,

866
01:09:02.279 --> 01:09:08.039
the uphology and UFO research is now
different because of Tom DeLong, Lue

867
01:09:08.039 --> 01:09:13.039
Alizondo and the rest coming together.
And again we can debate whether it's better

868
01:09:13.159 --> 01:09:15.439
or worse. That's not what I'm
here to talk about. All I'm here

869
01:09:15.439 --> 01:09:21.079
to talk about is just the discourse
has shifted. Right. We now view

870
01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:28.399
the UFO phenomenon differently than we did
in twenty sixteen. So I think that

871
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:34.199
that we're going to see the importance
of TTSA the further down in time or

872
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:39.560
the further sort forward in time we
go, right, And again I want

873
01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:43.279
I want to stress like what I
mean by importance is their influence. And

874
01:09:43.359 --> 01:09:46.079
again I don't want to talk about
good or bad. I just want to

875
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:54.520
kind of talk about that they are
quite an importantly sort of influential cultural organization

876
01:09:54.800 --> 01:10:00.079
for our subculture. And I wrote
in twenty seventeen like there's no point in

877
01:10:00.119 --> 01:10:03.439
talking about whether to the Stars is
good or bad. It doesn't matter.

878
01:10:03.520 --> 01:10:06.199
What's going to happen though, is
it's going to really change things. It's

879
01:10:06.199 --> 01:10:11.840
going to change the game. And
and I stated this two years ago,

880
01:10:11.960 --> 01:10:15.840
and I'm happy that I'm I'm okay
to kind of keep falling back on those

881
01:10:15.880 --> 01:10:18.840
words because because I think I'm right, and I think it's going to play

882
01:10:18.840 --> 01:10:24.560
out. We're dealing with something that
that like something's begun and we're not sure

883
01:10:24.560 --> 01:10:28.800
where it's going, and it's going
to become totally different in five years.

884
01:10:28.840 --> 01:10:30.640
The conversation we're going to be having
in five years is going to be unbelievable.

885
01:10:31.600 --> 01:10:35.119
I think you're right. And you
know what I find interesting too is

886
01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:42.800
as people kind of who view themselves, who really their identity is around all

887
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:47.319
of this UFO stuff, I think
that they can they sometimes feel entitled or

888
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:50.960
at least to have to be able
to say, you know, well,

889
01:10:51.000 --> 01:10:57.520
you're not one of us because you
weren't here in the get go and you're

890
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.720
a Tom DeLong follower, you know, and and you can't be one of

891
01:11:00.800 --> 01:11:04.920
us. We're not accepting you.
But really, when you have, especially

892
01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:10.399
someone like him, who already has
this very cohesive, strong community built,

893
01:11:11.279 --> 01:11:15.199
and if they say, hey,
we're here, there's nothing you can do

894
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:19.880
about it, They're absolutely right.
There is nothing any anybody who would wish

895
01:11:19.920 --> 01:11:25.359
to do something about it could do
something about it, so despite how people

896
01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:30.079
may want things to go. You
know, it's kind of these major shifts

897
01:11:30.079 --> 01:11:34.319
that are happening despite people liking them
or not. Right, Yeah, I

898
01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:39.800
agree that you see all these feuds
online that occur right between different groups and

899
01:11:39.840 --> 01:11:44.199
different individuals in the UFFUL community as
to whether TTSA is good or bad or

900
01:11:44.199 --> 01:11:47.199
whether their evidence is good or bad. And I personally have have been on

901
01:11:47.279 --> 01:11:51.079
both sides, you know, Like, I'm perfectly fine to point out that

902
01:11:53.119 --> 01:11:56.680
the chain of custody documentation on some
of the stuff is still missing, or

903
01:11:56.920 --> 01:11:59.960
we don't have it yet, maybe
it's still classified. Whatever, the point

904
01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:02.560
is, we're not really sure where
some of this content comes from. And

905
01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:06.920
that's a fair statement. I'm not
being critical in the I think TTSA is

906
01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:10.640
good or bad by saying that.
I'm just simply pointing it out because I

907
01:12:11.159 --> 01:12:15.319
tend to believe I'm a hack journalist
whose duty it is to kind of point

908
01:12:15.319 --> 01:12:19.439
that stuff out. So where people
kind of get stuck though, is again

909
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:24.279
in that you're either with us or
against us mentality, like you mentioned,

910
01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:29.920
right, and fundamentally it doesn't matter, Like fundamentally it doesn't matter whether you're

911
01:12:29.960 --> 01:12:33.800
pro TTSA or anti TTSA because that
ship has sailed. Like you're at this

912
01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:36.680
point, you're kind of pissing into
the wind now, like you know,

913
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:42.319
like move on, right, move
on because it's here and it's not going

914
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:45.079
anywhere. And at the end of
the day, all the people who are

915
01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:47.359
pro TT say, all the people
to all the people who are ANTID say

916
01:12:47.399 --> 01:12:51.039
they're not going anywhere either, right, So just stop yelling at each other.

917
01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:57.479
Right, it's a distraction, Like
you're clogging up my Twitter feed and

918
01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:00.479
let me get to the stuff I
actually need to look at in order to

919
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:02.119
do proper research or stay in touch
with the people I need to stay in

920
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:09.720
touch with. So you know that
that's that's my inherent my inherent beef with

921
01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:14.640
with the UFO community sometimes is we
waste a lot of time, I think,

922
01:13:15.560 --> 01:13:19.239
going after one another for things that
we can't control anymore. Right,

923
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:24.560
you know, if if if to
the stars is the boulder that's rolling down

924
01:13:24.560 --> 01:13:29.279
the mountain, there's no point standing
in front of it because you're just gonna

925
01:13:29.800 --> 01:13:32.319
get hit or you're gonna jump out
of the way. You know that that

926
01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:36.359
ball is rolling, so I don't
know, you don't even bollow it or

927
01:13:36.359 --> 01:13:40.680
anything. But yeah, I think
that's an important mesage. You got to

928
01:13:40.760 --> 01:13:45.720
deal because it's here. Yeah,
so cool. I guess my final question

929
01:13:45.760 --> 01:13:49.319
would because we're about out of time, is the future. What do you

930
01:13:49.479 --> 01:13:58.159
see as a future for this UFO
community or or for I guess, the

931
01:13:58.239 --> 01:14:06.319
impact on that this interest in their
broader society. Yeah. I think I

932
01:14:06.359 --> 01:14:10.520
think we're going to see a few
things. I think we're going to see,

933
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:14.560
like, like I mentioned sort of
just now, ttsa's influence sort of

934
01:14:14.600 --> 01:14:18.119
growing and spreading. We're going to
see I think a lot more public discourse

935
01:14:19.159 --> 01:14:24.960
in the mainstream concerning UFOs. What's
not going to change is not going to

936
01:14:24.960 --> 01:14:29.800
be discussions about you know, intelligent
others or aliens or you know, anything

937
01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:32.079
like that. It's going to be
kind of the same status quo line of

938
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:36.560
people are seeing unidentified things in the
sky. It doesn't mean it's aliens,

939
01:14:36.600 --> 01:14:41.319
it's just they're unidentified. So you
know, let's start looking at this a

940
01:14:41.319 --> 01:14:44.159
little closer. So I think that's
good. I think we're going to kind

941
01:14:44.159 --> 01:14:51.399
of see that shift to a more
open discourse about the fact that anomalous phenomena

942
01:14:51.479 --> 01:14:58.479
occur. I think that's going to
be one shift I think we're we're going

943
01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:03.640
to start to see a slow decline
if it's already happening of some of these

944
01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:14.520
other individuals who make bold claims about
you know, being soldiers on Mars fighting

945
01:15:14.600 --> 01:15:17.680
blue chickens. I think we're going
to start to see that stuff wane a

946
01:15:17.680 --> 01:15:21.640
little bit. You're always going to
have kind of the UFO religious aspect,

947
01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:30.279
but I think that sort of group
is going to the steam of that is

948
01:15:30.319 --> 01:15:32.119
going to start depleting, and they're
going to just kind of run out of

949
01:15:32.119 --> 01:15:35.479
steam within the next five years or
so, I think I think that people

950
01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:42.520
are going to move on. Those
are sort of my two predictions, at

951
01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:45.680
least because I think the UFO I
think we're going to go through a wave

952
01:15:45.720 --> 01:15:51.319
of UFO sort of enlightenment in the
next five years. I think the Scientific

953
01:15:51.319 --> 01:15:56.119
Coalition for Eufology is a good move. I think they are going to maybe

954
01:15:56.199 --> 01:16:00.039
shed some more light at least intellectually
on the phenomenon. And I think I

955
01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:03.199
think people who are interested in UFOs
are going to jump on that bandwagon rather

956
01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:10.359
than you know, time traveling humans
and and sort of the more ridiculous aspects

957
01:16:10.399 --> 01:16:15.239
of the discourse. Sorry, I
don't mean it's term ridiculous the more out

958
01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:18.880
there right interpretations of the discourse,
because at the end of the day,

959
01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:24.159
we're all kind of unified by our
interest in the UFO phenomenon, and if

960
01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:28.640
we can, if we can achieve
that interest by looking at it in ways

961
01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:31.680
that makes sense, we're going to
do that versus going to ways that don't

962
01:16:31.720 --> 01:16:35.640
make sense. Doesn't mean the far
out stuff's going to disappear. It will

963
01:16:35.680 --> 01:16:40.640
always sort of be there, but
maybe ringed in a bit. I mean,

964
01:16:40.640 --> 01:16:45.800
because of course you have conspiracies in
in every genre of thought, and

965
01:16:45.920 --> 01:16:51.239
so they'll certainly be there, but
maybe just not quite as wild as it

966
01:16:51.319 --> 01:16:57.319
is. Yeah, I think I
think we'll see a growth of of ufology

967
01:16:57.479 --> 01:17:00.840
that it is, like I said, more more reasoned, more rational,

968
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:03.399
more logical. I think I think
that's going to occur. We're going to

969
01:17:03.439 --> 01:17:05.439
it goes through waves. I think
it's going to kind of go up and

970
01:17:05.479 --> 01:17:10.239
down. So I think we're going
to kind of enter that era for the

971
01:17:10.279 --> 01:17:13.520
next little bit. I'm sure eventually
that will go away and we'll go back

972
01:17:13.520 --> 01:17:18.119
to the totally woogle like wild stuff. But you know, we're going to

973
01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:25.399
enjoy for the next few years,
hopefully this more rational version of pufology.

974
01:17:26.319 --> 01:17:31.079
Well, this has been an absolutely
fascinating conversation. Where's the best place for

975
01:17:31.159 --> 01:17:35.119
people to go to get more MJ? And also to get your book?

976
01:17:35.880 --> 01:17:41.000
Sure, so if you want to
buy my book, it's available all over

977
01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:45.079
where books are sold, the you
know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble,

978
01:17:45.800 --> 01:17:49.520
all those places. However, if
you want in sort of the one stop

979
01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:54.399
shop for for my content, you
can go to my website which is www

980
01:17:54.479 --> 01:18:00.239
dot Mjbanias dot com or my blog
which is www dot terra obscurity, and

981
01:18:00.279 --> 01:18:05.279
that will link to everything that I
do, all my different articles, so

982
01:18:05.479 --> 01:18:09.159
you can you can check those two
out as well as my YouTube channel.

983
01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:12.840
It's brand new, well it's not
brand new, it's a couple months old

984
01:18:12.880 --> 01:18:17.119
now, but my YouTube channel is
the YouTube dot com forward slash Mjbanis,

985
01:18:17.279 --> 01:18:19.439
or you can just go to YouTube
and type in my name mjban Ice.

986
01:18:20.439 --> 01:18:26.680
And I'm trying to actually get to
a thousand subscribers by July thirty first,

987
01:18:26.960 --> 01:18:30.960
and we're getting close. So if
you're on the YouTube and you sort of

988
01:18:30.960 --> 01:18:33.960
see my content, please go to
my channel and click subscribe. I release

989
01:18:34.199 --> 01:18:39.279
a video every Tuesday and I have
my live show every Thursday called Cafe Obscure,

990
01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:42.880
so there's always plenty of new stuff
popping up on that channel. Well,

991
01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:44.800
you know what, there was a
lot I wanted to talk to you,

992
01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:48.239
especially related to your YouTube and some
of what you've been releasing there.

993
01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:51.199
But you know what, we'll just
do this again in a few weeks and

994
01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:56.560
then maybe we can help generate some
more likes for your page and everything there

995
01:18:57.239 --> 01:18:59.720
that way. But yeah, let's
do this again in a few weeks to

996
01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:02.880
talk about some of those other topics. I wanted to cover the book stuff

997
01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:08.840
right now. But thank you so
much. That was super interesting and thanks

998
01:19:08.880 --> 01:19:12.359
again for coming on the show.
It has been a pleasure. It's always

999
01:19:12.359 --> 01:19:15.079
an honor to be on Open Minds. Thank you. Thank you so much

1000
01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:17.960
to MJ for being on the show
once again. Be sure to check him

1001
01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:24.920
out at Tara Obscura. That is
Tara obscura dot net. You might even

1002
01:19:24.960 --> 01:19:29.520
have our time spelling that. It's
te r r a second word O b

1003
01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.880
sc you are a. If you
just google that, you'll find him.

1004
01:19:32.920 --> 01:19:35.840
I'm sure if you just google his
name, you can spell his last name

1005
01:19:35.960 --> 01:19:42.920
b A N I A S.
MJ. Benaias so I love these talks.

1006
01:19:43.000 --> 01:19:45.079
I mean, a lot of you
are like, you know, I

1007
01:19:45.079 --> 01:19:47.199
want to hear more about TDSA and
hate tip. Of course, we've been

1008
01:19:47.560 --> 01:19:50.359
beating that to death, but there's
more and more news coming out on a

1009
01:19:50.359 --> 01:19:55.319
regular basis, Like you heard that
me and Martin discussing at the beginning of

1010
01:19:55.359 --> 01:19:59.840
the show. However, I think
this stuff is important too, self reflective,

1011
01:20:00.239 --> 01:20:03.760
thinking of the effect on society as
a whole, and then also you

1012
01:20:03.840 --> 01:20:08.720
know, how we fit into things. And I think that this discussion is

1013
01:20:08.800 --> 01:20:14.600
really important because I think he's very
insightful and this idea of you know,

1014
01:20:14.760 --> 01:20:18.159
this non cohesiveness when it comes into
interest in these sort of things. So

1015
01:20:18.840 --> 01:20:25.920
I thought that was a great discussion, very insightful. So I highly recommend

1016
01:20:25.960 --> 01:20:29.640
that you all follow what MJ is
up to and check him out at Tara

1017
01:20:29.840 --> 01:20:34.560
Obscura. I also want to thank
those of you who are new Patreon patron

1018
01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:41.560
So thank you to Kevin Duncan,
Frod Mark Jamie Frod. I'm not sure

1019
01:20:41.560 --> 01:20:44.479
if I'm spelling that. Maybe it
was Froda. I'm not sure if I'm

1020
01:20:44.479 --> 01:20:48.319
saying that correctly, but thank you
all. Anyway, we had that T

1021
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:53.640
shirt giveaway last time, so that
we'll be getting mailed out soon to the

1022
01:20:53.680 --> 01:20:58.319
winner, and then I'll be posting
on patron some more stuff here soon.

1023
01:20:58.560 --> 01:21:00.520
Also, Now, I did say
that when I went to Oregon, i'd

1024
01:21:00.560 --> 01:21:03.960
post some exclusive stuff. It just, you know what, It's hard for

1025
01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:08.199
me because I don't I like to
share with everybody what I'm up to.

1026
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:13.239
So I was gonna do that last
bit of audio, you know, exclusive

1027
01:21:13.319 --> 01:21:16.079
for just my patrons, but sorry, patrons, I decided to share that

1028
01:21:16.119 --> 01:21:19.800
with everybody. However, I do
have some cool stuff that I will be

1029
01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:24.079
sharing with just you all. And
the cool thing about being a patron too

1030
01:21:24.119 --> 01:21:28.039
is you keep up to speed on
everything I'm doing because I update and post

1031
01:21:28.159 --> 01:21:31.119
there, and then we can converse
back and forth as well. It's definitely

1032
01:21:31.159 --> 01:21:34.439
the best way to converse with me
as far as unless you send me email,

1033
01:21:34.520 --> 01:21:39.399
because on social media, you know, it's rare that I can get

1034
01:21:39.439 --> 01:21:45.159
to answer everybody who asked me questions. But so anyway, thank you so

1035
01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:48.680
much to my patrons. Again,
we'll have more exclusive info, and for

1036
01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:55.399
those of you who are not patrons
on my Patreon, please consider consider doing

1037
01:21:55.479 --> 01:21:59.760
so. Because I do giveaways,
I give exclusive information and it helps me

1038
01:22:00.359 --> 01:22:04.640
in this business because if I'm not
making money, I can't really do much.

1039
01:22:04.680 --> 01:22:08.760
And you know this is in defense
of people who do charge. I

1040
01:22:08.800 --> 01:22:14.079
know a lot of you pay for
Martin Willis's podcast, you know, and

1041
01:22:14.159 --> 01:22:18.520
I do not. You'll notice in
entertainment or in media, especially in their

1042
01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:25.159
everybody's figuring out how to make money
these days online and this stuff. You

1043
01:22:25.199 --> 01:22:28.560
can't get it done without money.
A lot of people complain, you know,

1044
01:22:28.600 --> 01:22:30.000
why do we have to charge for
this, that or the other.

1045
01:22:30.159 --> 01:22:34.119
But if we weren't charging, then
it wouldn't happen. That's just the way

1046
01:22:34.600 --> 01:22:39.680
the world works. Nothing's for free, and not all of us are billionaires

1047
01:22:39.680 --> 01:22:43.640
like Bigelow or Elon Musk or something
where we can spend a ton of money

1048
01:22:43.960 --> 01:22:47.119
and time doing this. So,
you know, that's why you should anybody

1049
01:22:47.119 --> 01:22:50.600
that you like that's doing some good
work, you know, patronize them.

1050
01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:55.800
Don't complain about having to pay to
see one of their lectures or something.

1051
01:22:56.479 --> 01:23:00.199
You should be You should feel good
about supporting these people and their work.

1052
01:23:00.239 --> 01:23:04.239
I certainly do. I buy books
from these people. I love to go

1053
01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:11.119
on and I'm a patron for several
other people on Patreon myself, so a

1054
01:23:11.119 --> 01:23:14.000
lot of good stuff going on out
there that you have to check out.

1055
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:16.680
Speaking of which, Dave Beatty,
we had him on not too long ago,

1056
01:23:16.880 --> 01:23:21.479
filmmaker. He did this Nimics Encounter
documentary. That's one of the things

1057
01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:26.560
that there's a link to that in
the Open Minds News on the front page.

1058
01:23:26.600 --> 01:23:30.800
So go check that out because he
just posted a new version and it's

1059
01:23:30.840 --> 01:23:33.680
great. He's got more witnesses and
lots of cool stuff going on there.

1060
01:23:34.239 --> 01:23:40.279
Also the International UFO Congress. Of
course there's always stuff going there. I

1061
01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:43.279
told you guys to buy those lamps
quickly because of course they all sold out

1062
01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:46.840
those levitating UFO lamps at the UFO
Congress store. But we will be getting

1063
01:23:47.000 --> 01:23:53.720
in more. Also, some of
you might have noticed that we will be

1064
01:23:54.000 --> 01:23:57.880
at Alien Con, so I'm going
to be speaking there. That's an A

1065
01:23:58.279 --> 01:24:01.800
and LA. But I'll be doing
a bunch of talks there June twenty first

1066
01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:06.039
to twenty third, So that's going
to be a lot of fun end as

1067
01:24:06.159 --> 01:24:09.520
usual, and we bring tons of
stuff. So if you want to come

1068
01:24:09.600 --> 01:24:14.399
say hi or actually purchase this stuff
from us, that's cool too. So

1069
01:24:14.439 --> 01:24:18.279
you'll see the UFO Congress there and
me doing talks. Otherwise, let's see

1070
01:24:18.359 --> 01:24:23.319
what else is going on. I
think that's everything, But we are posting

1071
01:24:23.359 --> 01:24:28.359
more and more speakers as the time
goes on. We've got some more exciting

1072
01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:31.119
speakers to post for the UFO Congress, you'll definitely want to be there.

1073
01:24:31.399 --> 01:24:38.199
And if you register this week,
that means the week of what is today,

1074
01:24:38.239 --> 01:24:42.560
the twenty seven. If you register
by June first, you can use

1075
01:24:42.560 --> 01:24:47.239
the code save twenty uppercase save I'm
sorry, save thirty uppercase save three zero

1076
01:24:47.479 --> 01:24:51.920
and you'll get thirty days off of
multi day passes. And you'll see that

1077
01:24:53.600 --> 01:24:58.520
our passes are very affordable, especially
compared to others out there. So this

1078
01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:00.600
is going to be a lot of
fun. I hope you guys show up

1079
01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:04.159
and come say hi. It's always
fun to hang out with you. That

1080
01:25:04.399 --> 01:25:08.479
is it for today's show. I
want to say thank you to Caleb Hanks

1081
01:25:08.479 --> 01:25:13.239
for the opening and closed music.
Thank you to Systematics for the bumper music.

1082
01:25:13.520 --> 01:25:15.920
Thank you to Martin Willis a Podcast
UFO for joining us with the news,

1083
01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:20.479
and of course thank you to MJ. Benias for being a wonderful guest

1084
01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:25.560
yet again on the show. And
of course I want to thank you the

1085
01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:29.319
listeners for listening. Guess what we
got next week? That's right, the

1086
01:25:29.359 --> 01:25:33.800
big show with lou Elizondo, and
so far everything's looking good. I think

1087
01:25:33.840 --> 01:25:38.760
it's really going to happen. So
it looks like this will be the first

1088
01:25:38.800 --> 01:25:45.479
interview post show. So if the
unidentified show is going to air on Friday,

1089
01:25:45.039 --> 01:25:50.000
I'm going to be interviewing him soon
after that and then we'll post that

1090
01:25:50.119 --> 01:25:54.079
next week for you all. So
thank you all so much for listening.

1091
01:25:54.159 --> 01:26:46.079
Until next time. Audio Smooth Turtles
at mus