WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.960 Hey, Welcome back to another Ruby Dev Summit interview. I'm here with Andy 2 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.960 Mala. I'm always worried that I'm saying your name wrong. I'll just admit 3 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:17.480 Mali Male Andrew or Andy is the He won the Fukuoka Ruby Award in twenty 4 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:23.960 twenty two for the Glimmer desktop UI. There was an official name, but 5 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:28.480 I can't keep it straight in my head, so I apologize for O libui. 6 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:33.439 Awesome. Yep. And then you have a master's degree from in software 7 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:38.240 engineering from De Paul University. And yeah, anything else that I missed that's 8 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:45.240 important. I've spoken at Ruby KMF three times so far, twenty eight, 9 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:49.280 twenty twenty two, and twenty twenty three. I've spoken at rails conv twice, 10 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:55.960 twenty twelve and twenty fourteen. Awesome. Well, I'm gonna dive us 11 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.520 right in, and anything that you've spoken about at those conferences it's into this 12 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:03.920 question. I'm happy to hear it or any other ideas you have. But 13 00:01:03.239 --> 00:01:10.159 I've been asking everybody what is the future of Ruby? Yeah? Most certainly 14 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:17.200 my presentations at Ruby KOMF were about my open source project, Glimmer, and 15 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:21.560 in twenty twenty three I gave a workshop on how to build desktop applications with 16 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:27.760 Glimmer DSL FORLIBUI. So I certainly see Ruby moving more into the Dusktop in 17 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:33.799 the future and not just being a web only language. So we can, 18 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.719 you know, build a lot of tooling and Ruby. Like I've built my 19 00:01:36.760 --> 00:01:40.680 own ID. I have an ID called Gladiator that I've built completely with Glimmer. 20 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:46.120 Oh wow. I've also I know a Japanese developer that built his own 21 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.640 internet radio app and I use it every day to listen to jazz music. 22 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:53.200 I really like it, and it was also built in Glimmer. It's kind 23 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:57.040 of like a Ruby version of iTunes in a way. And yeah, so 24 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.319 a lot of so we can build tooling and Ruby. We could build like 25 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:07.280 any you know, like media tools kind of like for playing music, play 26 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:12.719 simple play sorry, build simple games kind of like Tetris or simple board games. 27 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.039 So yeah, there's a lot of future for Ruby in the on the 28 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:20.840 Dusktop. I would say, I think it took a while for Ruby to 29 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.800 get back to the dusktop because Shoes stopped getting maintained about seven years ago, 30 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:30.840 maybe eight years ago. So fortunately I had time to maintain glimmer right after 31 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:37.039 that. And I've been maintaining it very actively for the last maybe six years 32 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:40.479 or five years, a little like about a year after Shoes dropped out. 33 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:46.400 So yes, so I do see a future for Ruby on the dustop. 34 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:51.120 Yeah, I remember Shoes did. Did the support for it drop out? 35 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:55.039 When? Why the lucky stuff kind of disappeared? That was the first dropout, 36 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.199 which happened in the mid two thousands, and that's what prompted me to 37 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.800 create Glimmer back in two thousand and seven, the very original version. So 38 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:07.840 originally it used to run in Ja Ruby and it was using the SWT toolkit. 39 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:12.280 Eventually I decided that the idea is good enough, like if using a 40 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.080 Ruby DSL that I can expand it to all other toolkits. So now it 41 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:23.599 supports tk GTK, Java FX, swing FX, Ruby wx widgets. So 42 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:28.919 yeah, it supports every single toolkit that is available in Ruby today, about 43 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.520 seven of them. So I guess in practical terms, does that mean that 44 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:38.879 I can write say, macapps and Windows apps and maybe Linux apps. Yes. 45 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:46.520 All the Glimmer dsls for desktop development are platform cross platform library okay, 46 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:52.840 supporting yes, Mac, Windows and Linux. The SWT Glimmer library which runs 47 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:57.000 in Ja. Ruby can also let you package your app as a native executable 48 00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:00.199 on those platforms. So I can create a DMG aisle on Mac, or 49 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.199 an e x E or m s I on Windows, or a Debian file 50 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:09.120 or RPM on Linux. So that way, when I package the app and 51 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:12.120 I give it to somebody to install, they don't have to install Ruby, 52 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:14.759 they don't have to install j Ruby, they don't have to install Java. 53 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:24.639 Everything is included. That's awesome. That is so awesome. So so yeah, 54 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:30.279 So, I mean, I definitely see Ruby going more into the desktop. 55 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.160 And in my opinion, I think it's a shame that nowadays a lot 56 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.720 of Rubis or people that claim to be Rubis, are using id s and 57 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:42.120 code editors not built in Ruby. I mean, some of them work at 58 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.079 very big, prestigious companies, uh, and they claim to be you know, 59 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.120 Ruby experts, and yet they don't build their own ID or or editor 60 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:53.560 and Ruby. They use an inferior like they use vs code, which is 61 00:04:53.560 --> 00:04:58.160 built in JavaScript, which is an inferior language, a very inferior language in 62 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:01.920 fact, And uh, it's a shame because they could have spent time contributing 63 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:08.279 to the Ruby ecosystem instead. And like the productivity of using a Ruby DSL 64 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:14.319 is way higher in my experience than using something like HTML CSS with JavaScript. 65 00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:19.040 So I do, I mean, I do call like bullshit a bit on 66 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:25.560 some of the people that without using Ruby tools or tools built in Ruby, 67 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:29.879 like desktop tools built. But I think that that is at the same time, 68 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.800 that's a great opportunity to go into that in the future. I mean, 69 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:38.360 I did my best to put my money where my mouth is and build 70 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:44.000 my own board editor with Glimmer and Ruby. So I think that's why I 71 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.600 see a great future in it. I'm just a very I mean, I 72 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:51.959 would say I'm not an ide building experts. I just built my own as 73 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:56.279 a first experience and it kind of worked for me. But I would I 74 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.600 would hope that, like sorry, like I would look forward to what experts 75 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.199 could do then with Ruby start development to help build, to help build better 76 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:08.519 Ruby tooling. Yeah, I think. I think. As I've talked to 77 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:14.680 a whole bunch of different people within the Ruby community for this summit, we've 78 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:18.600 seen some expansion into other areas. One that comes to mind is Dragon Ruby 79 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:23.959 right where it's mostly focused on game development, but you can deploy your games 80 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.720 to pretty much any platform, Yes, are there right. That's another part 81 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:32.600 of my prediction for Ruby. Uh. In the future, it's going more 82 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:39.199 into gaming and definitely and Ruby seems like a great option right now because from 83 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.560 what I've seen in demos like at Ruby coff twenty twenty two, it has 84 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.639 great performance. Yeah, but there are other options as well like Ruby two 85 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:51.480 D and go through UH. It also can build very simple games in Glimmer, 86 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:56.879 So I definitely see Ruby getting more into gaming in the future as well. 87 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:00.160 Right on the flip side of that, you know, where we've talked 88 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:03.839 a little bit about Dragon, Ruby was mostly mobile focused initially and then kind 89 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:09.160 of spread to these other platforms for gaming. Do you see something like Glimmer 90 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:15.160 moving more toward mobile where you know, maybe I'm building my business app for 91 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:17.800 the desktop and then later I have the option to build it for the iPhone 92 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:21.480 or Android or something like that. It's not a game. Yeah, That's 93 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:27.040 certainly a third area that I think Ruby will have a future in as well 94 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:31.920 as mobile development. I definitely think Ruby Motion Story, which was built by 95 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.120 the creator of Dragon, Ruby, is a good option to get people started 96 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:42.040 and building cross platform apps on mobile, so meaning apps that run on iOS 97 00:07:42.040 --> 00:07:47.199 and Android. I've experimented with it a little bit, and I do want 98 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:51.959 to eventually have a glimmer DSL to simplify development with it. So I did 99 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:57.639 look into the idea a little bit, but I got pulled into other projects, 100 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:03.360 but I want to get back into it eventually. I think even without 101 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.519 Glimmer like, ruby Motion does provide an interesting option for cross platform mobile development 102 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:11.079 in Ruby. Yeah, I need to talk to a mirror about that, 103 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:16.079 because he acquired ruby Motion and then put all the focus into Dragon Ruby and 104 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.319 I'm wondering. Yeah, now that you mention it, if yeah, ruby 105 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.920 motion is still an option for the Hey, I'm not building a video game 106 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:28.319 app. I'm building a whatever mobile app. Yeah, last that I checked, 107 00:08:28.759 --> 00:08:33.120 Ruby Motion is still functional and it works, and there are people that 108 00:08:33.159 --> 00:08:37.320 are quite pleased with it. However, one thing that it's lagging behind in 109 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:43.720 right now is support for the latest Ruby versions. So Dragon Ruby, for 110 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:48.000 example, by contracts like you said, like they're very active into supporting it. 111 00:08:48.039 --> 00:08:50.080 So it actually already supports Ruby three point two, if I'm not mistaken, 112 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:56.679 whereas I believe Ruby Motion might be still stuck at Ruby two point zero 113 00:08:56.759 --> 00:09:00.960 or something like that. So that is definitely something that I I'd like to 114 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:05.559 see them improve upon. But at the same time that like that, that 115 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.120 also makes it an opportunity for Ruby expanding into mobile development in the future. 116 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.159 Yep. Absolutely. Otherwise, the fourth area that I was thinking about is 117 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.000 basically web development in the front end. So Ruby in the front end was 118 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.360 something that Matt's mentioned in his keynote speech at Ruby Comp twenty twenty two, 119 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:31.000 and he said that given that we have options like Ruby wasn't we should be 120 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:35.120 able to now run a real Ruby in the browser and do real full like 121 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:39.399 full front end developments in Ruby. So that means we can have isomorphic, 122 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:46.080 isomorphic applications built with Ruby on the back end with rails and Ruby on the 123 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:52.600 front end with rubym or another option like opal ruby. So opal ruby usually 124 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:58.200 produces like Ruby wasim will compile the entirety of Ruby, whereas opah Ruby is 125 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.320 more like a transpiler to job us will produce much smaller downloadables. So in 126 00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.960 my opinion, Opal ruby is the more convenient option for using Ruby in the 127 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:15.000 front end if a company does not want to have long like big downloadables like 128 00:10:15.080 --> 00:10:18.759 it's only in kilobytes in open Ruby, whereas in was'm it's in megabytes, 129 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.360 so I think. But both of the good news is both of them are 130 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.720 options on the table nowadays, so I definitely see what'll be expanding more into 131 00:10:26.519 --> 00:10:33.039 front end development and also becoming like enabling isomorphic application fragments, which means I 132 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:37.360 can reuse the same Ruby logic that's in the back end for some business rules 133 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.360 on the front end as well, so that way I don't have to re 134 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.759 implement the order tax calculation algorithm on the front end again in JavaScript, if 135 00:10:46.759 --> 00:10:52.600 I want to calculate it in the clients, I can just reuse the exact 136 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.440 same code from the back end in the front end. I've actually experimented without 137 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:03.799 myself and got that working. In fact, recently I spent the holidays like 138 00:11:03.879 --> 00:11:09.440 creating a new Glimmer library to support development on the web with open Ruby using 139 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:15.679 Glimmer DSL, and I was able to have it. Basically. The nice 140 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:20.200 thing about it is you can build HTML using a Ruby DSL, which means 141 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:22.360 I don't need ERB, I don't need GSX, I don't need to mix 142 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:28.159 multiple languages anymore. We can step a level higher and abstraction and just have 143 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.600 one language that handles both structure and logic, so that way I can add 144 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:39.360 if statements or each iterator into the exact same code that is building the HTML 145 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:45.799 GUI, so then the code becomes a lot lighter, and also it enables 146 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:50.840 me to then use like very advanced object oriented techniques for Ruby to do real 147 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.799 MBC and MVP development. And the new Glimmer DSL for Web project is basically 148 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:01.320 the newest one. It started in twenty twenty three and it got finished for 149 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:07.679 a first beta version just a few weeks ago, and it basically enables also 150 00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:13.720 the usage of all the desktop data binding features of Glimmer on the web, 151 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:18.519 and I've played around with using it a bit for building samples, and I 152 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:24.000 was shocked by how productive it is compared to something that React. I felt 153 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.399 like I was at least double as productive as I am with React, which 154 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:35.679 I use in my current company. So we've been exploring switching React with Glimmer 155 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.120 DSL for Web recently and we're probably going to do a proof of concept of 156 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:45.120 that and implement it soon. So I definitely see a future for Ruby on 157 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:52.559 the web development front end as well. Right and just if people are more 158 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:58.159 interested in either Ruby WISM or OPAL, there are interviews done with Ellie Esquito 159 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:07.840 who does OPAL and with Yah with with Elias a lot about I hit him 160 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:13.600 up if you will ask him questions about YEP. I also talked to you 161 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:16.919 to Psycho, who's the Ruby cor committer for Ruby WASM. So yeah, 162 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.960 if you want to if you want to know more, there's more. Yeah, 163 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.799 And and I love the ideas of getting Ruby on all of these different 164 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:33.519 platforms. It I mean that I don't know it. I remember back in 165 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:39.919 the day when basically your good options for a lot of this development was you 166 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:46.799 would do Cotland development or Java development for Android, and then in anything that 167 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:52.559 ran the Android system in the back end, so things like firestick TVs and 168 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.279 stuff like that. Or you'd use Swift or Objective C to do your Apple 169 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:01.440 stuff and that's so that your mobile phones and your Apple TV and then you 170 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:03.559 know, on and on and on, and then JavaScript kind of broke into 171 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.639 those and it was nice because then it was like, Okay, well this 172 00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:11.440 is a language, it's a little bit more familiar, and I can mostly 173 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.799 do the same thing and have it work in multiple places. But the thing 174 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.559 is is like, I don't know. I've written a couple of react native 175 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.360 apps. I've written a couple of other apps with different JavaScript options and they're 176 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.480 just not my favorite tools to use. And so yeah, as I imagine, 177 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:30.879 Okay, well, hey I can do this in Ruby, and I 178 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:35.039 can be hyper productive and I can get what I want and it's going to 179 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.759 be performed enough for people to use. That gets me really excited that that's 180 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.759 what fires me up. And so you know the things that you're talking about, 181 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.639 it's like, yeah, well, if those are all the case, 182 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.799 then the sky's kind of the limit. Yeah, definitely. The only area 183 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:56.600 that I left out other than desktop, mobile, web and gaming is AI. 184 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.360 So I actually I'm a co organizer of the trall or it's called the 185 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:09.600 Montreal RB Ruby meet up in Montreal, which is a meetup for like basically 186 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:16.879 giving software engineering talks using Ruby or Ruby on rails, but people will usually 187 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.679 cover different areas of development like desktop development, web development. And the last 188 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:26.080 two months we had two AI talks that were very interesting. Both of them 189 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.919 involved building large language models, and so one of them was given by let 190 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:37.240 me see the name of the guy. His name was let me see, 191 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:45.240 So I mean the library is called lang chain, and that was the library 192 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:50.759 he presented. His name is Andre Bondarev. He's based out of New or 193 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:56.039 So, Yeah, he gave it an interesting talk about how do you leverage 194 00:15:56.159 --> 00:16:00.240 Ruby more for AI and machine learning development. And then the other guy was 195 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:06.440 called John Sebastian Boulanea, and he gave a talk called building an AI Medical 196 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:11.159 Scribe and Ruby, and that one was very interesting because basically it was like 197 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:18.320 an AI scribe that would accompany physicians by listening on the microphone while they're talking 198 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:23.480 to their patients, and it would basically listen to everything they discuss and then 199 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:30.960 it would summarize the conversations into the most useful pieces of summary information, which 200 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.639 then the physicians can later use to save time and avoid having to read the 201 00:16:36.799 --> 00:16:41.159 entire transcript, so it saves them, it would save them hours of work 202 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:48.559 basically. That so basically both of those talks were about using Ruby for AI. 203 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.919 So that's definitely another area that Ruby could break more into in the future. 204 00:16:53.879 --> 00:17:00.159 Yeah, we've had Andre on the podcasts. I don't know the the 205 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:04.599 other guy that you mentioned, but we did talk to Alex Rudahl who's been 206 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.200 working with the open ai and written the open Ai gem and yeah, it's 207 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.359 it's fascinating to see where some of this stuff goes. Now, lang Chain 208 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:17.799 itself is written in Python, but the Ruby libraries and the Ruby bindings, 209 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.599 from what I understand, are excellent. And I know that Valentino Stole, 210 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:23.240 who's my co host on Ruby Roakes, has also done a bunch of stuff 211 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:26.599 with that. And yeah, as the tools get better, I mean, 212 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.839 there's there's no reason why. Hey, you know what, there's this awesome 213 00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:33.680 tool out there. It's kind of like using postgress, which is also not 214 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:36.559 written in Ruby, right, but we connect to it because it does the 215 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:38.559 work on the back end we need. Yeah, you know, there's no 216 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:44.599 reason why we can't write these apps in Ruby and you know, surface some 217 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:48.599 kind of useful AI to them in rails or something else and take that to 218 00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.920 the next level. Super exciting. I'm also talking to Alex incidentally about doing 219 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:59.519 an AI challenge and it'll probably be the middle of March. Is what we're 220 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:03.079 looking at, and leverage some of the open AI stuff. But yeah, 221 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.640 it might be interesting to talk to somebody and see about doing something with a 222 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.759 lang chain or something like that where it then is not using open Aiyes, 223 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.119 models, you know, large language models, et cetera. And their imaging 224 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.279 models, but actually building your own would be really interesting, and maybe Andre's 225 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.839 the right person to go to for that mm hm. But so it's it's 226 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:29.039 cool stuff and it's it's so powerful as far as like the different options you 227 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:30.920 have then to give a better experience to your users, which I think is 228 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:36.000 what we all want. It's we want to solve a problem that people have 229 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:41.519 in a way that really fits with what they need. Yeah, exactly. 230 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:47.279 I mean there there is a place for other programming languages like C plus plus, 231 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:52.319 Swift, c Sharp, see and Java. Like sometimes there are needs 232 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.960 to optimize algorithms with types, and for those cases I might use a different 233 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:03.279 linuage from Ruby. But at the same time, if I'm building like highly 234 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:07.759 uh, I would say abstract things that can benefit from object oriented and DSL 235 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.920 sorry object oriented programming and dsl's then Ruby is definitely an excellent filelnce for it. 236 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:18.119 And I personally still think Ruby in my opinion, Ruby could do anything 237 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.640 that Python or JavaScript could do, but better or even Pearl. So in 238 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:27.519 my mind, anything that has been available in JavaScript, Python and Pearl should 239 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:34.279 be we could we could use Ruby for it instead. Going forward, Yep, 240 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:41.680 absolutely are there other things coming down the pipe with Ruby that you're excited 241 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:47.759 about or want to talk about. Well, I mean, yesterday somebody hit 242 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.720 me up about my new project, Glimmer DSL for a web and he said 243 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:55.319 that he likes the front end a development aspect of it a lot, that 244 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:59.000 he was curious about how to integrate it with back end developers from rails, 245 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.079 and he asked need to expand it so that it would offer an alternative to 246 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.599 RB on the back end as well, using Glimmers Gloomer DSL. So the 247 00:20:07.920 --> 00:20:14.079 interesting thing that him and I discussed yesterday that I'm still exploring is basically you 248 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:18.519 could have the same exact components on the front end and back end, so 249 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.680 you would develop a component once and it could either be server side rendering for 250 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:27.680 it when the page first renders or it can later be rendered after the Patient's 251 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:34.799 interesting and the interesting part is if it included any JavaScript logic, and like 252 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.359 if we're using Opal, Ruby or WASM, it wouldn't be JavaScript. But 253 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:42.960 either way, if it has a listeners or data bindings, they would not 254 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.720 get hydrated and activated till after the page is rendered, So there would need 255 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:52.920 to be some logic that would you know, if I'm running on the front 256 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.240 end, it would attach the listeners right away. If I'm running on the 257 00:20:56.279 --> 00:21:00.000 back end, the event listeners are attached after rendering the page. So that's 258 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.680 something I'm researching right now, is how to use like how to build isomorphic 259 00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:11.000 applications or DSL for both the back end and the front end. Yeah, 260 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.200 and if you're looking for a model that does a lot less of the how 261 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:21.319 do I put it the big upfront heavy duty hydration like react or Angular does. 262 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:26.519 Quick has a really interesting model of doing that where they use web sockets 263 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:32.039 to effectively lazy load in and then eager load in stuff as it goes. 264 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.400 Yeah, that web sockets is definitely are definitely on the agenda of things to 265 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:42.359 explore as well to figure out how I can make the life of rail software 266 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:48.960 engineers easier or like sorry, more like more productive whenever they use web sockets 267 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.839 as well. Yeah, and there's so much exciting stuff coming in rails, 268 00:21:56.920 --> 00:22:00.000 you know, not to kind of steal the conversation and what you're talking about 269 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:03.559 here with the future of Ruby, but yeah, I think there are going 270 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:06.599 to be a lot of good options for that. I think they also use 271 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:10.400 web workers which is something that EHH says he wants to make first class in 272 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:17.079 RAILS. Yes, that is another thing that I'd like to explore eventually in 273 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:21.359 the future. So rails offers the new you know, hot Wire and Turbo 274 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.039 technologies, which are very interesting because they decrease the need for writing JavaScript manually 275 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:30.920 for a lot of buses, especially cases that are just doing straight AJAX and 276 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.039 then you know, putting whatever HTML where received from the server into an element. 277 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:42.200 So there are other alternatives that are doing something similar, like htm X, 278 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:48.640 which lets you to any sort of like element replacement with AJAX calls by 279 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:56.279 using HTML attributes. So both options are interesting in my opinion. They're orthogonal 280 00:22:56.319 --> 00:22:59.960 to a library like Glimmer. Glimmer is just providing a way of writing client 281 00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:06.319 side code uh in instead of JavaScript, and it would be interesting to combine 282 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:10.359 solutions. So eventually I do want to spend a bit of time to looking 283 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.440 into how to better integrate with Turbo, So I definitely find that interesting as 284 00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:21.480 well. For sure about the future. Yeah, we had Carson Gross on 285 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.240 JavaScript Jabber last year, so if you're looking for more info on HTMX, 286 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.839 yeah, we talked to them at length about how it works so awesome. 287 00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:36.559 Yeah. Yeah, I've been looking at it a bit recently because it is 288 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:41.240 definitely orthogonal and it could be combined with Glimmer, except instead of adding the 289 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.759 HTML attributes in real HTML, we can just add them in Ruby instead using 290 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:51.279 the Glimmer DSL. So, because the Glimmer DSL is simply HTML CSS, 291 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:55.880 there's nothing, there's nothing more to it. It's just the standard HTML CSS, 292 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.720 but you're using it from a better language that allows you to be able 293 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:03.119 to write logic and structure in one language instead of having to, you know, 294 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.680 use ERB and Ruby or JSX and JavaScript. We don't have that separation 295 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:11.720 anymore. It's not needed, so we can be a lot more productive. 296 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.799 That's cool. I'll have to check that out. Yeah, so I mean 297 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.480 that that is one interesting thing on the web that I I'm looking into, 298 00:24:19.599 --> 00:24:23.240 is, you know, more improvements to Glimmer DSL for Web, like being 299 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:27.599 able to write components that run on both back and the front end. As 300 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:34.200 far as desktop development, recently, I added a library for rendering charts and 301 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:41.400 graphs and currently supports a line graph and a bar chart. And it's been 302 00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:47.559 asked of me by somebody who's building a real application that has bars, sorry, 303 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:52.000 that has graphs and charts using Glimmer DSL for Libyui. So I've actually 304 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:56.559 helped that person build that application. Once it's completely finished, it'll probably get 305 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:02.440 announced on my blog. But as part of that project, we extracted another 306 00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:10.480 library called Glimmer Libui graphs and charts and nice supports two graphs right now, 307 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:14.960 and I'm working on adding a bubble chart soon. The good news about this 308 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.759 is it will open the floodgase for people doing more data science and Ruby, 309 00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.640 including graphic and charting as opposed to having by fun. So that's stuff for 310 00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:30.160 something exciting as well. And another thing I'm working on is improving the support 311 00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:37.400 for a few components and Glimmer desktop libraries so that they support slots just like 312 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.759 they do on the web. So I'm for working on that as well. 313 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.480 That's awesome, and I, like I said before, I mean, I 314 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:48.039 love the fact that we're getting into a place where oh I need this other 315 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.880 kind of app, where I need to target this other kind of platform, 316 00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.759 and hey, look we've got great options for you know, for doing this. 317 00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:07.279 So yeah, yeah, that's super cool. You you mentioned Montreal RB. 318 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:15.799 Are you seeing what are you seeing in the meetup space. So we 319 00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.759 got the last two talks where AI talks. Like I mentioned already before that, 320 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.319 we had to talk about how to do payments and Ruby on Ruby on 321 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:29.519 rails, any payment solutions like Stripe or other payment gageways like repay or Zoom 322 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:33.039 rails or there are many many payment gateways out there. So it's just a 323 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:37.720 general talk that gave also information about like the business of payment and not just 324 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.880 the development software development of payment. Before that, I had a talk on 325 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:49.000 Rail's few components, and before that I had a talk on Microsoft Coyota, 326 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.359 which allows you to be able to build, sorry not build, generate any 327 00:26:53.440 --> 00:27:00.720 Ruby SDKs for rest APIs automatically. So that way, if somebody using the 328 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:06.079 open API spec, so you know, for example, I get the open 329 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:11.200 API spec for uh, let's just say integrating with Azure storage services, I 330 00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:15.640 can Let's just suppose their their library is going out of dates or they haven't 331 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.720 updated in a while. What I could do is actually I could just use 332 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:23.880 Karyota and it would generate and SDK automatically from their open API spec. I 333 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.680 don't even have to use the library anymore. And the good thing about it 334 00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:32.000 is. It can allow us to then add things like repeating like sorry, 335 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.079 like things related related to software reliability like repeating calls, recovering from exceptions, 336 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:42.119 reach wise, et cetera. So it's a it's a it's a very interesting 337 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:48.279 library that actually GitHub officially adopted recently in an announcement as the new way of 338 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:53.200 them building SDKs for their APIs. So they're not going to be maintaining their 339 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:57.920 own custom ap SDKs anymore. From what I read in the announcement, They're 340 00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:03.960 going to be using Microsoft Coyota. So that's another interesting technology that got covered 341 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:10.319 at Montreal ARB recently. Very cool. That sounds really handy. So they 342 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:14.559 just generate the swagger dots and they're off to the races. Yep. Yeah. 343 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.160 Pretty much before that, we had a Montreal RB talk about how to 344 00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:25.279 build command line tools in Ruby that was interesting, and somebody also gave a 345 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:33.680 talk on optimizing mathematical algorithms in Ruby that was interesting as well. Very cool. 346 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:37.359 Are there places where people can find these talks or are they? Yeah? 347 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:41.319 There? So, I mean, we we announce our talks on meetup 348 00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.480 dot com. We just have a meetup group, So if you search for 349 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:52.759 Montreal dot RB on meetup dot com you'll find us. And actually there's also 350 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.839 a YouTube channel. It's called at Montreal dash RB. If you go to 351 00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:03.519 that channel at Montreal dash ar, it'll give you the all the talks recorded. 352 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:07.480 So we try to record every single talk unless the speaker doesn't want want 353 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:12.480 to. So we have more than ten talks on that channel. Awesome. 354 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:19.119 We re rebooted the group after the COVID lockdowns about two years ago and that 355 00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:23.440 that and then that was when we started posting talks in one channel on YouTube. 356 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.319 So yeah, we have about we have over ten videos on it. 357 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:33.480 Nice. Yeah, that's we've been trying to revive the one here in Salt 358 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.839 Lake and it just it's been kind of a thing. So yeah, So 359 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:44.359 we definitely had to start small and keep doing it for a while, even 360 00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:47.680 if people were coming as much, Like at first, not many people are 361 00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:51.680 coming obviously, some people were afraid of COVID still and didn't want to go 362 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:55.000 out as much. We didn't care. We just kept hosting it over and 363 00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:00.119 over and over and then it kept growing and growing, and like it's so 364 00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:03.960 right now it's a lot like we're filling the room every time. Almost in 365 00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:10.319 the last three times, so it definitely helped you just be persistent. Yeah, 366 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:14.400 I think that's what it's going to take. There was some idea around 367 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:21.400 not holding it at a company's space, but that eliminates like ninety percent of 368 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:26.640 the spaces that are really available to us, And so I think some of 369 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:32.200 the co working spaces might be willing to let us use like their you know, 370 00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:36.400 their presentation area or their conference room every once in a while. But 371 00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.160 if we don't have any people who are trying to help organize it that are 372 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.920 members that the co working space, it gets a little complicated too. So 373 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.240 I'm really thinking I might just reach out to some of the companies here in 374 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.440 Utah and just say, hey, do you have a space where we can 375 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:52.119 hold the meet up and do you have an employee that will let us in, 376 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.200 and are you willing to buy pizza or whatever. I wonder if some 377 00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:02.720 bars can also allow you to the talk, like the bars that have a 378 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:06.400 stage for a band. I wonder if, like if you could project a 379 00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.200 screen there instead. But yeah, we definitely so for us, we have 380 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:15.119 we've been hosting the talks between two companies, one of them is my company, 381 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.440 Lexop and other companies called Potlock. Both of them are based in Montreal 382 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:25.559 and their technology companies that use to Ruby on mails development. So we've been 383 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:33.279 splitting the hosting locations between two companies and that definitely works for us. Yeah, 384 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:41.279 so the way that our geography is set up, they're kind of three 385 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:45.400 ish more or less business hubs. There's a lot of stuff that happens in 386 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:48.200 Utah County, which is where I live. I live just on the north 387 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.319 end almost in Salt Lake County, and most of the business hub around here 388 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.039 is right near me, right, So it's almost in salt Lake County, 389 00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:00.880 and there are a couple of rather like arch companies that have offices there, 390 00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:05.279 and so we could definitely get away with it. There are some that are 391 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:07.960 kind of in the South Valley in salt Lake County, and then they are 392 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:14.160 a bunch downtown Salt Lake, and then they're a handful in Davis County, 393 00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.440 which is north of Salt Lake, you know, all along the I fifteen 394 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:21.559 corridor. And so that could be interesting, right, just finding those spaces 395 00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:24.920 where hey, can we post a meet up at your office? And some 396 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.160 of them like plural sites office is up in Davis County and they might be 397 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:31.559 willing to host us even though they don't use Ruby on rails, they do 398 00:32:31.640 --> 00:32:37.839 have some Ruby content in their subscription and might be willing to host us just 399 00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:39.480 out of the kindness of Hey, if people like us, they might sign 400 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:45.160 up for a subscription. So I don't know, but yeah, I think 401 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.240 it'd be worth reaching out and trying to pull something like that together. And 402 00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:52.599 like I said, also, there are a few of these companies that I 403 00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:54.640 know people at that I could just say, hey, can you, you 404 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:58.359 know, ask around the office and see if they'll let you do it. 405 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:04.400 So anyway, we kind of got a little off topic there, but it's 406 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:07.839 all good. I think the meetup scene is kind of coming back. We're 407 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:13.880 definitely seeing more conferences. Are there other things that you're seeing up and coming 408 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:23.440 in the Ruby community that you wanted to go over? I'm not sure, 409 00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:31.160 I mean, but I definitely feel like Ruby is still a highly effective language. 410 00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:37.640 And yeah, I do notice something actually more recently, I noticed that 411 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.920 a lot of people that have left Ruby for other overhype technologies are returning to 412 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.559 it now. That's what's interesting. Like twenty twenty four or even the end 413 00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:50.279 of twenty twenty three, a lot of people that have left Ruby for Ilixur 414 00:33:50.680 --> 00:33:54.559 or Rost for whatever other languages are all of the sudden returning and being like 415 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:01.359 Ruby on rails is way simpler than anything else noticed that recently, and I 416 00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:07.840 agree with it. So are there reasons that you're seeing for that or like 417 00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:14.280 anything in particular? I mean, the only reason I can think of is 418 00:34:15.800 --> 00:34:20.280 waking up of the hype the hype spell. I personally, I'm a very 419 00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:24.239 very like I try to be very realistic and practical about how I think about 420 00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:29.639 software. I think about software from a software engineering like pros and cons point 421 00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.480 of view. I never think of it from the point of view of, 422 00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:35.639 oh, this is cool, this is fun, this is something used at 423 00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:38.320 a large company x y Z like Facebook. I never think that way. 424 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.840 I always think, you know, you know the pros, what are the 425 00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:46.199 cons? Is it making out life better or worse? Development more cheaper or 426 00:34:46.199 --> 00:34:52.679 more expensive, more productive, et cetera. So I tend to guard myself 427 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.960 against falling for hype spells to begin with, like I try to, you 428 00:34:55.960 --> 00:35:01.519 know when Like so, I think some people might have made the mistake of 429 00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:05.519 falling for hype a bit and then they woke up from it, and then 430 00:35:05.559 --> 00:35:08.880 they realized, like, because I've heard of people that used Elixir for a 431 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:14.239 while or some other technology it might have been JavaScript, and then they came 432 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:15.920 back to Rails and then they're like, wow, Rails is amazing, like 433 00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:22.559 it it feels so productive by comparison, it's so lightweight. So I think 434 00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:27.599 it's just people rediscovering that. Yeah, I think there's something to that. 435 00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.159 I think also down to some of the points you're making about some of the 436 00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:37.280 stronger points of Ruby or Rails and then people, yeah, recognizing that the 437 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:43.079 other technology is not giving them what they want. So I know a lot 438 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:46.920 of people that yeah, they went over to Alixer or to React for different 439 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:51.800 reasons, right, and some of the promise was there, right, which 440 00:35:51.880 --> 00:35:53.599 is why they moved over because they fiddled with it, and yeah, it 441 00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:59.920 kind of delivered what it said it did. But as those technologies of mature, 442 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:05.880 Yeah, they come to realize that a Ruby's becoming more performant. It's 443 00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:09.000 you know, Rails is delivering on more and more of the promise and you 444 00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:13.519 know, coming back to I feel like Rails is coming back to its roots, 445 00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:15.519 which is funny because DH has always been the guy driving it. But 446 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.159 coming back to its roots of hey, look, we're going to give you 447 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:23.119 something that just you can build something just awesome, which is kind of the 448 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:30.679 focus of Rails Composer, which is a project I'm working on. But yeah, 449 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.800 you boil it down to those things, and then yeah, people start 450 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:37.280 realizing, hey, this is what I want to make what technology, you 451 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:42.679 know, and yeah, Elixer adds this level of complexity or you know, 452 00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:45.119 it's not as nice as Rails has been to do some of this stuff or 453 00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:50.559 things like that. Yeah, I have been following that same exact vision with 454 00:36:50.599 --> 00:36:52.880 Glimmer libraries, like I try to give people a way to build the Dusktop 455 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.360 up in ten minutes if they need to, right, like a very simple 456 00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.400 MVP in ten minutes at least most sorry, and then maybe they can even 457 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:06.440 finish the full app in like an hour or a few hours. And I've 458 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:09.519 definitely been trying to emulate what the HH has done in Rails, Right. 459 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:14.480 I think that's a big selling point for sure for Ruby. I do agree 460 00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:19.159 about that, yep. Yeah, I mean it's the same idea behind Rails 461 00:37:19.159 --> 00:37:22.280 Composer, where it's there are a whole bunch of things you're going to need 462 00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:27.960 for your app, user management, permissions management, payment management, you know, 463 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:30.920 stuff like that, and so hey, pull our pieces in and then 464 00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:35.400 work on the thing that you actually care about, which is my customers need 465 00:37:35.480 --> 00:37:39.480 something that helps them do whatever it is that your app does, right, 466 00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:44.599 so you know, yeah, you get all the boilerplate, all the main 467 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:46.519 stuff out of the way. And for me, the SaaS has a certain 468 00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:50.280 level of boilerplate to it, so you get that all out of the way, 469 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:52.920 so you can live in your zone of genius. And what I find 470 00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:55.039 is that, yeah, a lot of these technologies, especially React, in 471 00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:00.559 my opinion, they they've added so many things to it and pushed it in 472 00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:05.599 a direction to where you have to be a master of many things in order 473 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:07.519 to get what you want out of it, Whereas in Rails, if you 474 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.679 want to boil it down to just the basic NBC framework, you can get 475 00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:15.239 away with that and build a simple app really fast. Yeah, I mean 476 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.599 you can still as caffold the full app in one command, which is awesome. 477 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:25.280 Yep, more or less. So yeah, all right, Well we're 478 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:30.880 almost to our forty five minutes. If people want to connect with you or 479 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:32.920 find out more about Glimmer or any of the other things, we've talked about 480 00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:40.719 where do they find you online? They probably find me on GitHub Andy Octiva 481 00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:46.159 is my handle, or they could find me on my blog, which is 482 00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:52.119 Andy Maale dot blogspot dot com. And I'll make sure to send you the 483 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.800 links so that you can include them somewhere that people can clear if they want. 484 00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.119 Yeah, well, we'll have show notes for the interviews, so yeah, 485 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.920 definitely. And yeah, I mentioned a few of the other people that 486 00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:07.519 we've interviewed. I think I'm gonna reach out to Andrea, even though I 487 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:09.159 already talked to Alex and see if we can get him on for an interview 488 00:39:09.159 --> 00:39:15.800 as well. And then, yeah, thanks, thanks for joining us, 489 00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:17.679 folks, and until next time, Max out