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the Last Dance Documentary. Co host Andrew D. Bailey. As you might
have guessed from that long winded intro, we are going to talk about episodes
seven and eight of the Last Dance Documentary, which were, as the first
six were very interesting. We'll talk getting deeper to some of the stuff that
actually happened, and we're also going to talk about some things that we're hoping
to see from the final two episodes that we haven't necessarily seen just yet.
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Online, dot AG and Lucu, who you will be hearing from in just
a few moments. Andy, how the hell are you? I'm doing great.
You're right. I am kind of sad there's only two of these left.
I have loved this entire series, but episodes seven and eight, for
some reason, I just thought were incredible. I think they've had the biggest
effect on me so far. And just so you know, Kim Griffy Jr.
Hit fifty six home runs in nineteen ninety eight. That is ken generally
related to a conversation we were having before we started podcasting. I don't know
if that's who you were thinking of, but I just I think it's wild
that a fifty six home run season it's just sort of lost to history.
But that makes sense because McGuire hit seventy and sixty six. What a way
to start a Michael Jordan podcast. This was well because I guess nineteen ninety
eight, so I mean it's it's kind of related well. And also they're
going to have the documentary on the McGuire a social chase. Maybe Griffy was
involved early on. I'll have to look and see like where he was with
his game logs, because I actually, for some reason, not that I
forgot about him, but I guess I didn't appreciate how early that was.
Like Griffy was still Griffy in ninety eight, I believe so. And this
is my MLB history is lacking. Baseball used to be my favorite sport,
but right around the Millennias when I just sort of checked out. Maybe a
little bit after that, I think after the Subway World Series is really when
I started dwindling there. However, this is a basketball podcast, so I'm
in agreement with you. I've really enjoyed the last dance. I think you
need to appreciate it for what it is, which is Michael Jordan propaganda that
you need to take with a grain of salt. And so if you're looking
to really just get into the innermost demons that are related to Michael Jordan,
like if you want a more impartial outlook at the gambling problems or the treatment
of Jerry Krauss, that's just not what this documentary is. And so as
long as we can acknowledge that, I think it's totally fine to enjoy the
hell out of this, particularly when there's there's just nothing else happening. I
don't give it. I don't give a shit about UFC. It shouldn't even
be happening right now. I can't get into KBO. I'm sorry to care
and baseball players. So I think, particularly at this stage of life,
with all that's going on, as long as you understand what this is,
you can absolutely positively enjoy the heck out of it. Yeah, and I
have so far, right, I think it's just been really really gripping,
captivating stuff. And I think a lot of the like maybe there's still some
bombshell to come and episode nine or ten. But all the talk about how
people are gonna hate Jordan after this, it's like it's had the opposite effect
on the talk was started by Jordan himself, and so that seems like a
pretty calculated move on his behalf, almost sort of overselling what we were going
to see. Yeah, yeah, I mean that that that could be for
sure, But I think it's just a lot of it's it's behind the scenes
of a lot of stuff that people already knew about Jordan. I just texted
my brother today after I watched these episodes and said, I feel like this
documentary is just kind of making me happy and confirming my decision to put him
above Lebron in the top fifty that Bleacher Report had me do last summer.
I know that you've kind of been I don't know if you've taken a definitive
stand on whether it's Lebron or Jordan, and I don't know if this has
changed your mind, but I there really is an intangible quality with Jordan,
and you and I have talked about this. I think we talked about it
on the last Takeaways pod that we did that we were a little too young
to have like great, great vivid memories of this and like all the behind
the scenes stuff, but I do remember a feeling of inevitability whenever Jordan was
in a series against somebody, it just felt like he was going to win.
And I don't think i've ever seen that with any player since then.
Part of that, and I'm going to actually an agreement with you, that's
how I felt, probably because I was so young that every shot he took
I assumed was just going to go in. And I've never felt like that
about a player except for maybe twenty fifteen. Twenty sixteen Stephen Curry is really
the last time I've even, yeah, come close to feeling that way.
And maybe there's like a little bit of youthful ignorance there with the inevitability of
Jordan, because we weren't necessarily old enough to understand more of the intricacies of
the game or remember some of the just the poor outings that he had if
you're not following the game as closely. But I absolutely understand the mystique around
Jordan now in when we're talking about people who believe he's the greatest player of
all time. I do not. I don't get nostalgic for the game.
I'm not watching this footage and then seeing that the scores were like seventy six
to seventy three, being like I really missed this shit. No I don't.
I will. However, my second point is that though while I understand
Jordan's case as the goat better than ever, I've never had less of a
desire to pit him against Lebron James, just because the circumstances of everything about
their career were just so different. There's you know, there's a talk about
the supporting cast. Lebron has never played with another top five player in the
league at the time, and Jordan had that a lot with Scottie Pip and
Anthony Davis. Is probably the closest Lebron has come, I would say to
that. Dwayne Wade was pretty close that first year too, Yeah, that
first year, but just looking at viability and then beyond that, the game
is so different. Also, the coverage is so different, and so we've
talked about this too, where that mystique around Jordan was probably a little bit
born from the scarcity of the coverage, Whereas yes, there were still media
scrumbs and all that, but there just wasn't that social media access, and
so Lebron seems like he's in our face twenty four seven, three sixty five,
because not only our players more accessible, but they're more robotic with their
brand management, and so we have more access, but they're less candid,
and I think that's detracted from Lebron's mystique more so than it did for Jordan's.
And I don't think there's really anything wrong about that. I just agree
with you though, that those are really my two points. Is that I
understand people being so stubborn about Jordan being the goat. I've also never had
less of an inclination to have that discussion between he and Lebron after watching this.
And I don't know if that makes sense to you at all. It
does, And I actually have something in the pipeline. It was actually pitched
to me by the editors to basically make the case that you don't need to
compare the two. I don't I don't know when that will come together,
but I think that's an interesting way to look at it. And I actually
I can't remember who it was. I think it was on a radio spot
or something. Somebody asked me about ranking players, and I just talked about
how difficult. It is, and to me it's there's two big, big
difficulties. One is across eras, which I think a lot of people talk
about. So it's just difficult to compare Michael Jordan who played in the nineties.
Like you said, the games are just a lot different. The scores
are lower, the way defense was played was different. I think the level
of I think the talent pool was a little bit more shallow than which is
understandable. The game has just continued to grow over the years, so it's
difficult to compare across eras and then to just judge someone's talent level. In
basketball, I think the margins are so so thin that it's hard to definitively
say, well, this player is better than that player, so it's almost
easier to do like tears, and within the same era, it's impossible to
compare. So I don't know if there is a way to definitively say this
is the best player ever. But as I've watched this documentary again, I
just I think I also like the distinction. I'm rambling at this point,
but I like the distinction between greatest and best two, which I know is
like a semantics thing, but When you watch Jordan and you see some of
these quotes that he's giving in these interviews about his desire to win and his
competitiveness and stuff like that, I just I can't imagine anybody ever merging competitiveness
and talent to the same degree that Jordan did. I think there are incredibly
talented players. I think there are incredibly competitive players. His combination of those
two things, I just don't know if I can put anybody on that level.
Well, then this documentary has succeeded. You've bought into the Michael Jordan
propaganda. That's a good that's actually a good spot to actually cannonball into these
two episodes, though is I'd like to go through maybe what our favorite quotes
or moments were in a second, But I think given the subject matter of
these two episodes, it's the closest this documentary has really come to humanizing Michael
Jordan. Like we saw a little bit of the footage I think in episodes
five and six about how he was getting tired of fame, but this time
this deals with the murder of his father, his first retirement, what he
was going through in baseball, how he was even kind of perturbed from Afar
when Pippin didn't go into the game in the final seconds of game three of
I think it was the ninety four semifinals at that point, hopefully I'm not
misremembering there, and then just subsequent the desire to win to where I still
don't understand why he was crying at the end of was that episode seven or
episode eight? There? It was episode seven, correct, Just all sort
of blurring together. But it's kind of dealing also with maybe it feels like
he was a little bit affected about how people perceive his treatment and relationship with
teammates. Perhaps he doesn't care, but it did seem like he was trying
to justify why he was so hard on his teammates while at the same time
retaining that level of mythology to where I'll use whatever it is to fuel my
drive to win. It was I don't even remember the guy's name right now,
I'm almost blanking yes, And so he makes up Bradford Smith saying good
game, Michael at the end of his just random outbursts that he can hold
the grudge over and just torch him there. There was a nice balance of
that, but again between covering the murder of his father, which was clearly
tragic, and him talking about his relationship with teammates, trying to explain why
he was the way he was going through. They delved more into his fatigue
with fame at the time a little bit and segueing into into baseball. I
think these two episodes probably humanized Jordan more so than than any of the previous
ones. Yeah. I think that's probably true, And maybe that's why I
love these two so much, because I think like it delved a little bit
deeper into who Jordan was, what drove him, what made him the maniacal
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you're online wagering experts. The stuff about his father was, you know,
tragic, obviously very interesting too. I liked the story he told about
how he got suspended three times as a sophomore in high school and his dad
had kind of a heart to heart with him. And basically what got Jordan
to realize or to get on the right track, so to speak, was
he said, if you if you don't get this, if you don't get
on the right track, you can't play sports anymore. And that was enough
to kind of get him where he needed to go. And it just he
obviously had a close relationship with his father. I thought it was interesting that
he said my dad taught me to turn a negative into a positive when talking
about his father's death, which I'm sure I don't even know how you turn
that into a positive. Maybe he eventually did. It was his opportunity to
chase this dream that he had and that his father had for him to go
play baseball. The stuff with his father was was really really good to me.
And that's so he actually just misremember for a minute. He the episodes.
Both of them end with him crying. The first one is when he's
talking about it, I guess, like the his desire to win or whatever.
But then it's when they beat the the Sonics right in ninety six.
That part was awesome when he says this one's for dad or I can't remember
exactly what he says to a modern shot. But then they show him just
bawling and the training sobbing on the floor, and that's the part that really
hit me more so than than the first one. And so that was really
a peak pint of curtain. This is related to that too. Apparently the
take machines were just always Shernan, doesn't matter what time period we're talking about.
When when his father gets murdered and there the headlines are. Is this
related to Jordan's gambling? Yeah, I just And I'm going to preface it
with this as someone who is probably made jokes in poor taste before, one
of which, as I've openly admitted, was about Rudy Gobert and the coronavirus.
Never in a zillion years would I ever think about jumping to that type
of conclusion, especially while being serious about it, Like that's a level of
it's not even misreporting. It's almost worse than claiming that all of Kobe Bryant's
children were on the helicopter with him. They're the same level of bad,
really, But it's like, how do you like not confirm sources there?
And then how do you speculate about something like how do you forget on even
if this guy seems like an icon in a way where he's untouchable and not
human, how do you forget to that extent that he's human that you're going
to go right into Is it his fault that his dad was murdered? I
was I did not remember that coverage tying into it, So I was fucking
flabbergasted when I saw that I liked his statement on that. I simply cannot
comprehend how others could intendinly pour salt in my open wound by insinuating that mistakes
in my life or in some way connected to my father's death. And we
we complain about the hot take machines that are just always seemed to be an
overdrive nowadays, But you're right, it's it seems like that is not exclusive
to our era. Maybe they're not as quickly distributed to the masses as they
are today with you know, sixty second recaps of first take or whatever it
is whatever the Fox Sports show is called. I can't I can't remember it.
Sorry skipping Shannon. No, that was a nice fu to Fox Sports.
I support it, but yeah, I mean those that that that take
was just wild to me. And it's another example of, uh, how
do you how do you exist in that space that Jordan was in, that
level of fame where the instant reaction to the death of a loved one is
that I just I can't imagine first dealing with the death of your father at
such an early age and then just like he's he put it, I I
can't comprehend someone doing that. So that was fascinating for sure. Yeah,
there's just like it's not even it's worse than selective memory when it comes to
professional athletes. It's it's like when people talk about they get mad that that
there's a comparison between Lebron being more of an activist than Jordan, and then
they'll just say that Lebron needs to do more, but like they forget he
opened a school and like he's had all these just programs that help kids go
to college. And I'm not actually arguing over him, and we people just
forget Lebron's activism and ignore the China stuff. Right. It's and people there
can't be like a gray area anymore. It has to be cut and dry
where you're on one side of the fence where you can't acknowledge that, hey,
Lebron's done a lot of good. But pretty much all this commentary on
China is incredibly hypoco critical. And that's not even just you know, that's
not even just related to NBA players. The other sort of thing that I
find ridiculous, and it didn't have to do with MJ's father's death, but
had to do with the gambling. We get David Stern commenting on Interesting,
Yeah, yeah, MJ's hiatus from the NBA, and a lot of or
I would say a good many people have speculated that the league suspended Jordan because
of his gambling, and David Stern said this, The folklore, the urban
legend that I sent him away because he was gambling is ridiculous. It's just
not true. And I not having any inside information on this. I don't
know how anyone could think that that actually happened, just because why would David
Stern, who's trying to build the league's brand, jettison it's most marketable,
most profitable player. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah,
by far, the most marketable player they've ever had. We talked about his
shoe deal in the last episode we did together, and how he, you
know, beat their projections for sales by like a thousand percent. He drove
the league to a level of visibility that it just hadn't had in the past.
And to say, okay, you're done in the prime of your career
when you're coming off a third championship, I mean, he was as hot
as celebrities get at that time. So to ban him from basketball for a
year because of some gambling debts that that conspiracy theory never really made a lot
of sense, and they had David Stern talked about it. I can't remember
who else they drew quote quotes from on that, but there was five or
six people that just emphatically denied it, and they even brought up that same
sort of logical argument that you made that it just it just didn't make sense
in the first place, So I think, yeah, there was there's probably
five or ten minutes to vote to No. That theory is ridiculous. So
let's move on. What else did you was some of your favorite moments from
this Maybe I don't. We probably didn't touch enough on just how they were
trying to capture the competitive nature of Jordan to the point that again he's in
tears at the end of episode seven, and you you had to kind of
help me understand that moment, because I was like, it was nice to
see, and I think as a documentary maker, you probably want that moment
where he has to call for break at the end, like you want that
on camera, and it didn't. It seemed to be legitimate, But I'm
like, of all, I just didn't. I just didn't understand it necessarily.
If that's really how badly he wanted to win, I guess I respect
it, but I probably respected a little bit more if he's actually just concerned
that people really think he's an asshole and he doesn't want to be remembered as
that asshole. Yeah, so I kind of thought about it from that perspective
after you and I texted about it, and I think You're probably right.
In the moment when I saw it, I thought he was, like,
he's just that emotionally invested in winning that even like looking back on it and
thinking about it stirs up some emotions inside of him. But your interpretation and
I may just need to watch the last five minutes again. I might have
just been typing it at the moment or something as I was doing the takeaways.
But that would also make sense if he was because it was just coming
off the stories about how hard he was on his teammates. If he looks
back on those relationships, because when you spend a lot of time with a
team in sports at any level, those those guys become your brothers. And
I'm sure it's even more so in the NBA because you're on you know,
you're on these plane trips all the time. You you basically are family for
nine or ten months out of the year. So maybe if he looks back
and he hears these quotes from his teammates about how difficult it was to play
with him and stuff, I could see how you could, you know,
with the benefit of hindsight, he's now many many years removed from the game.
He thinks, geez, maybe maybe there is a little bit of remorse
towards that. Now, there are other comments that he's made in the documentary
that would suggest that there's no remorse, and maybe you just it just depends
on which question you catch him with or you know at what moment you catch
him, because you know he has some quotes even in this episode I thought
were really fascinating. I'm trying to find one from my Oh okay here it
is winning has a price, and leadership has a price. So I pulled
people along when they didn't want to be pulled. I challenged people when they
didn't want to be challenged. They talked about the fight with Steve Kerr in
this episode. There was another quote from Jordan where he said I tried to
get him to fight me a couple of times, talking about Scott Burrell.
There was the stuff with bj Armstrong. It just seemed like probably every single
teammate he had at some point was in the Jordan crossairs because he just he
demanded a level of competitiveness out of guys that many of them probably didn't have,
and it became obviously a hallmark of his career and it's it's now becoming
a hallmark of this documentary. Well, Steve Kerry even said his theory was,
if you can't handle pressure from me, you're not going to be able
to hander handle pressure of the NBA playoffs. And also the quote that you
sort of dropped for series going off in the background, excuse me, Serie
needs to shut up on him recording podcast. Man. So the quote that
you just related from Jordan, he also finished it with and when he's talked
about challenging his teammate, he's saying, and I earned that right because my
teammates who came after me, they didn't endure all the things that I endured.
Yeah. And is that the quote that he ended up tearing up onto
after or was that the one about the tyrant? Because he was He even
said the documentary, when people see this, they're gonna say, well,
he wasn't really a nice guy. He may have been a tyrant. And
he said he also says, well that's you because you never won anything.
I can't tell if is it a level of just entitlement, is it a
level of self confidence? Is he just trying to justify everything he does did
because he wants the perception of him to be better. Does he just want
to not be sorry for the way he acted. It feels like there's a
lot of layers to just the way he treated his teammates and the drive to
win, and then how that's related to how he wants to be perceived.
It's all of a sudden become very confusing to me after seeing this documentary in
a way that it wasn't beforehand. Well, maybe maybe there are layers,
and maybe there's layers to it for him too, and that's why he gets
randomly emotional about it now. I really do want to go back and rewatch
the last at least interview there in episode seven, to at least have a
better idea of what made him emotional in that moment, because I do I
do think that he's there's kind of like a push and pull within him.
I mean, it's it's kind of wild for me to play armchair psychologists through
the documentary to Michael Jordan, but it does seem like there's maybe some conflicting
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Wire. They are something else that stood out to me. They got into
Pippin's sitting out the final seconds of it was the ninety four semifinals, right
when Tony Kukach tipped that came three winner. This was one of the weirdest
quotes to me. Scotty Pippen says, it's one of those incidents where I
wish it never happened, but if I had a chance to do it over
again, I probably wouldn't change it. Yeah, just a complete contradiction.
Well, so, one thing that has stood up to me through the documentary
is Pippen is like almost as much of a competitive maniac as Jordan. Right,
Pippin also needs to nat rate books on tape. But that's that's just
a side note. Yeah, for sure, Yeah, there's and I I
almost for I can't even say it for god, because I probably didn't recognize
at the time. There's just been a re emphasis of how actually good Scottie
Pippen was, Like that ninety four bulls team was legit and he was the
driving force behind it. And the fact that he did sit out, Yeah,
it was a selfish act, but it's because he wanted the ball in
those final seconds and Phil Jackson was like, he didn't even tell anyone that
he was checking out either, though only wondering Phil Jackson find out. He
was basically like, fuck him. It was just it was so bizarre.
But I guess you're right, it's I didn't really now that you've said it,
it does kind of show how much of a maniacal competitor that he was
not just Jordan. Yeah, my favorite part about that little story too,
was probably when they when Kerr and Bill Cartwright recalled the speech that Cartwright gave
a lot of crying in this episode. Yeah, yeah, I guess they
said Cartwright was crying in his speech and just saying like, we never would
have expected that you would quit on us. And it sounds like that was
kind of a turning point for a lot of those guys with Pippen. And
it's interesting too because you know, earlier in that little portion of the episode
they talked about what a different and that almost seemed relieved to talk about Pippin's
leadership style as opposed to Jordan's. They were saying that, you know,
he was the leader, but he wasn't nearly as demand. He wasn't cussing
people out, and so maybe they grew to appreciate that style over the course
of the season and then, you know, to have it built up all
year and then kind of be let down in that big moment, it was
probably difficult for them. I really noticed Phil Jackson's face after Kukoch hits the
shot and they show everybody walking off the court. You can tell that he's
upset about something, because that's you know, that's a big moment. Your
star player refuses to go back into the game. That's huge. And you
know, they sounds like they got over it. They didn't win that series,
but just from you know, a teammate chemistry standpoint, it sounds like
they were okay. Yeah. I mean, maybe I didn't pay enough homage
to it when Steve Kerr was saying it while we were watching, but Steve
Kerry even said, Scotty's one of our favorite teammates, one of our favorite
people in the world. He quit on us. We couldn't believe that happened.
It was devastating, and so there definitely was that level of shock there
that they had to deal with. It wasn't even just the act itself,
but the source of it, because it doesn't seem like anyone have expected something
like that to come from Pip and so that that was a great point.
I didn't really give it much consideration in the moment. Let's go back to
the Kur fight for a second too, because I was just I was thinking
about Phil Jackson and the way he reacts to things. I thought it was
kind of funny in hindsight, at least, I mean, it's not funny
that Jordan beat up Steve Kerr. But I mean he punched him in the
eye, didn't beat him up. He punched him in ye, well,
so he punched him in the eye. But then in a different interview he
said he beat up the littlest guy on the court, So I don't I
don't know. Can we also ask for a minute, how do you not
have Steve Kerr's number? He was like he had a call someone to get
Steve Kerr's number, Like what, Yeah, that's weird. Maybe maybe you
don't get Jordan doesn't have your number until you stand up for yourself. But
I thought it was kind of funny that Phil Jackson goes down into the locker
room or wherever, I can't remember where they met up and Jordan, before
Jackson even said any thing, he goes I know I went too far at
that time, But it was interesting that Kurs said that that was the moment
that kind of garnered Jordan's respect for him, and it's you know, it's
funny that he says, I tried to get Scott Burrell to fight me in
practice too, Like it wasn't just come on, guys, let's try harder
and practice you know, let's let's get this right, you know, just
sort of go through the motion stuff Like he wanted to bring demons out of
people. He wanted to unearth the most competitive impulses that these guys had,
because I think in Jordan's mind, we're not gonna we're not gonna win championships,
which is, you know, it seems like all he cares about.
And another interesting quote from him was, I'm sidetracking myself at this point,
but he said, the playoffs is the highest level of competition that we have
in our game. You got eighty two games in the regular season, but
you can kick all that aside. The playoffs is the playoffs, and to
be able to play against the best competition. That was the driving force for
me, without a doubt. And so I think he knew that I need
guys. Nobody's going to be as good as me, but I need guys
who are at least going to fight as hard as I do in the playoffs.
And I think that was that was sort of the motivation for a lot
of what he did with teammates. Yeah, it's just I don't I don't
even know where I ultimately fall on it. It seems like they're that we
could get a lot more into it, and it's actually gonna be one of
the things that I point out when we talked about what we're still sort of
hoping to see. Was there anything else that stood out on a profound level
or just something that was funny that you took away from these two episodes of
The Doctor. I'll just do some rapid fire ones. They they delve into
his baseball season a little bit. I thought it was interesting when Terry Frank
COONa said if he could have had fifteen hundred at bats, he would have
been in the majors, you know, a two out two average. We
kind of look at that in scoff, but then you know, the guy
hadn't played baseball for fourteen years, and he drove in fifty one runs in
Double A and hit two oho two and it sounds like made that thirteen hitting
Street Street started getting streaked to start the season. And I thought the stuff
was really cool about how he was ticked off at the media coverage and so
he spent all these extra hours in the batting cages getting his swing right,
and I you know, I gotta take Terry Frank COONa at his word.
I mean, I think he's a pretty good manager. He's won a World
Series, and I gotta trust what I've seen from Jordan as a basketball player
too. I think if he had stuck with it, you know, he's
not going to turn into Willie Mays or anything. But I wouldn't have been
surprised if he could have figured it out. Yeah, I think that's totally
fair that we we already mentioned the the fake slight that he invented from le
Bradford Smith. That was fascinating. The way he went at bj Armstrong like
he was he was just looking for people to go at all the time.
There was a step jam go ahead, Oh yeah, that was It's almost
like his just it's back to his work ethic talking about how he's has he's
on call, like he has to wake up at seven or that's when his
first call is. Then he gets a two hour break, he's practicing,
Then he does his last call at like six or seven at night, and
then he goes to scrimmaging with actual NBA players. Reggie Miller's there, Patrick
Ewing's there, and then he lifts weights and then does it all over again.
Pretty amazing. And the fact that he you know, basically made Warner
Brothers build him a gym with an NBA floor on it. That actually wasn't
that surprising to me. But and one other thing that kind of stood out
to me. Nobody ever talks about the fact that the Bulls lost in ninety
five that first season back, and they go into that a little bit in
this episode, and I thought he maybe he needed one more loss to kind
of spur those next three championships. It seems like he took that personally,
as he seemed to take a lot of losses per in his career, and
that was sort of the kickstart when he came back from baseball. Losing that
series. I think in the long run was was probably a good thing for
him. Interesting to see Horace Grant blossom too as soon as he left Chicago.
Yeah, and who was it that said that forty five isn't twenty three?
When Jordan were still he said some some tough moments in NBA history.
Yeah, mystery throws perhaps, And then Jordan changes back to twenty three and
kind of dominates. And the quote there I thought was interesting too. He
said, I just felt like forty five wasn't natural. I wanted to go
back to the feeling I had with twenty three, yeah, which is this
isn't you know, a terribly original point, but there's a ton of sort
of I can't even think of the word. Why am I blanking on this?
I'm banging in suspense right now? Oh my gosh. Superstition, Holy
kel why did that so much superstition in sports? And yeah, I meant
my brother. I don't know if I've ever talked to about him much on
the podcast, but he was a professional basketball player for a while. He
wore the same rubber band on his hand every every game one of his years
in college. Like there's just these little tiny things and you convince yourself in
your mind that this has something to do with why I'm performing so well athletically.
So I've got to keep going with this. And it's it's not surprising
that Jordan has some of those ticks, No, not at all. What
are you hoping to see from the last two episodes of the documentary that maybe
we haven't seen yet or haven't gotten enough of the jazz shocker? And I
know I can't remember who said that. Maybe it was a rash Mark Kazy.
I think he's with the Los Angeles Times Now. I think he tweeted
something the other day about how Stockton filled in his interview for this, like
the day before the season shut down. They were still in the midst of
putting this together when the season shut down. This was supposed to come out
in August or September or something like that, and so they had time to
put the finishing touches in all these episodes. I think as of a couple
of weeks ago, they were still working on episodes nine and ten. So
obviously that's that's his opponent in the last Dance season is the Utah Jazz.
So it'll be interesting to see, you know, how how deep they go
into those teams. Have They've They've spent a little time on some of these
Bowls opponents, Like you know, they spent some time with Barkley and the
Suns, and you know this episode. One more takeaway is the stuff with
Gary Peyton and Michael Jordan was hilarious when they play that clip of Peyton saying
that he bothered Jordan and Jordan just starts cackling when he That was one of
my favorite scenes. But anyway, they've spent some time with a lot of
Jordan's opponents, and I think this one. Maybe I'm biased, but I
think this is probably one that most people remember. It's it's the most recent
they've faced him two years in a row. So I think we'll probably see
some stuff on the Jazz and I think it's you know, it's starting to
focus in a little bit more on that last Dance season ninety seven ninety eight.
I think the focus is going to be even tighter on that last season
here in the last couple episodes. Yeah, they'll probably spend ninety six ninety
seven on episode nine, and then while cutting back to the ninety seven ninety
eight season like they've done all along, and then maybe the final episode will
be purely about that. There anything else you want to see, because I
have a laundry list of things that I still want to see. Yeah,
you mentioned some of them before we started recording, and I kept thinking,
oh, yeah, yeah, that would be interesting, So let's let's dive
into your list. Well, one thing I'd like to see more about his
family. I know we just dealt with the murder of his father, but
like how he was as a husband and a father, I think that would
continue the humanization of Michael Jordan. And I'm not saying that that needs to
be the goal of this documentary, but they've covered so many different aspects and
I think they've gone back in time more than people probably assumed, and so
it feels like that should be fair game. And I know he's once divorced,
so I don't know if that has something to do with it, but
that I would like to see more about how he juggled being a father and
husband throughout all this, because he's talking about how much he doesn't really like
his life at points and I'm just like, well, were you're having a
good time, like with your kids and your family? Yeah, that would
that's going to be really interesting to see if they delve into that. And
I think one criticism that a lot of people have had of the documentary,
and it's probably fair, is it's, you know, very slanted to be
pro Jordan. It sounds like he had a decent amount of control over you
know, you know, I don't know if he had the official final cut
on anything, but it seems like his voice was involved in some way.
So maybe you're right, Maybe if there is some family dynamic that he doesn't
want explored in front of millions and millions of people. They probably aren't going
to do it because obviously it's not worth it for the filmmakers to can the
whole project if they can't do ten minutes on his divorce or his family life.
But I agree with you, it would be very, very interesting to
see. And I think the final point you made there is really interesting I
hadn't thought of is he does talk a lot about how difficulties life was and
how he'd been dragged down by basketball, and be interesting if he could,
you know, if his family was sort of a boon to him at any
of these points. Another thing I'd like to see is, let's be brutally
honest and have a discussion about how many titles did Michael Jordan and the Bulls
organization leave on the table because of his hiatus in or was that ninety three
ninety four and then most of ninety four ninety five, and then because they
dissolved the team right before that lockout truncated season. I'd like there to be
you know, it'd be like sort of a look ahead, but like we've
we've journeyed so far back into the past that I think that should also be
fair game. As well, and I don't think there's been enough of a
conversation about that. And you can also tie it into wall if he had
stayed, do they like, does the team never actually win those final three
titles because you can't think yeah, because you can easily assume that they would
just win eight in a row. But that's just the fatigue associated with that.
Was he just always destined to try to retire on top. And then
this is also related to that. And it was actually you that mentioned it,
Like, let's talk about him then coming back to play for the Wizards.
Let's get into that a little bit. Maybe that's a separate documentary and
I'm going too far into the future, but those are another two things that
I would like to see covered as well. And you mentioned the Charlotte Hornets
too, Could we mention them at least? Yeah, I mean at some
point you would think they could get into his post playing career. Man,
maybe maybe they will be some of that at some point. I think that's
all fascinating. You know, we we've seen a lot of dynasties or you
know, close to dynasties over the course of the time that we've covered the
NBA closely. And there's a lot of them. When they first formed,
you think they're gonna win five or six titles. Didn't happen with the Heat,
didn't happen with the Warriors, you know, two teams that were set
up to run the table for a while. And you're right. I think
that's a fascinating point that if Jordan and the whole team had stayed together in
ninety three ninety four, do they go on to win three more? You
know, by the time he comes, by the time they have another championship
winning team in ninety five ninety six, a lot of the pieces are different
than those first three title teams. Scottie Pippen was the only remaining member right
aside from Jordan, obviously, Yeah, I think you're right. So it's
it's essentially a completely different team other than the top two. So that's that's
interesting. If they had let's say he doesn't walk away ninety ninety four,
and it plays all of ninety four ninety five and then goes a couple of
years after ninety eight, it really is interesting to think about how many he
could have gotten to because there's already so much mistique around. You know,
he's six and zero in the finals. Does anyone knock him off if they
become a little bit apathetic at some point? You know, if he never
leaves, that does that change his lore at all? I think it probably
does. At the same time, what if he did win eight or nine
and then you say, well, he's got eight or nine championships in the
nineties compared to you know, Bill Russell's eleven in the much smaller league.
I don't. I don't know if there's any way to make his profile any
greater than it is, but you know, eight or nine championships probably would
have done it. I would say he left and the Bulls left at least
one on the table, because maybe maybe they stall out before they and they
don't win like those three consecutive ones that they actually did win, and perhaps
they win in ninety three, ninety four or something like that. But I
think you could also argue that they stayed together. Like there's maybe the potential
that the reboot last just as long. So like, what if they just
stall out. Let's say they win four in a row, like they win
ninety ninety four, but then they still stall out ninety four ninety five.
If he's still playing, maybe that lass kind of reinvigorates them and they,
you know, go on to win three more anyway, because that was if
they stayed together. So I would say one or two would probably be just
my estimation. It's completely non scientific, but I do think. I don't
think if he never leaves and if they keep the Bolts together longer, I
don't think we're looking at fewer obviously, or the same number of rings.
I think we're looking at Yeah. I wonder what the team could have looked
like if it could have found some way to salvage things after ninety seven ninety
eight, Like what if they win that title? That last one in Jerry
Krauss finally thinks, you know what, I might have been wrong about this.
Let's let's try this one more time. Like, I don't. It
seems like the relationship with Pippin was maybe past saving at that point, So
maybe you try to retool around Jordan, see what you can get for Pippin.
I don't. But if he was a free agent, right, so
maybe you can't gone, Yeah, I mean, and let's sign and trade.
Obviously they could have they could. Yeah, what if George would be
using free agency and goes to another team. Yeah, I guess that was
on the table too. I don't know. I think I agree with you
to go back to the original question, like how many more titles do they
win? I don't think it fizzles out and they just completely implode, kind
of like the Warriors did. But I think they probably get one or two
more. I'm with you. That was So that was two more quick things
I kind of want to see because weren't there points where Jordan was at least
linked to other teams as he was going to be a free agent. I
would have liked them, and I don't think they're gonna get into it.
Would have gotten into that more at the time. Also, this is something
that's really just coming to me. If he really hated fame that much,
had he just signed with a different team, Let's say this is ninety eight,
could he have gone or just like small market whatever, Because if he
seemed to generally hate fame that much, you know, people I've seen photo
shops already of what if he went to the Knicks and Lakers. What if
he like just went to anyway like Milwaukee, it's like sort of close to
Chicago, Because if he seemed to hate fame, that much. Maybe he's
the superstar that could have broke that mold. I think fame was going to
follow him anywhere fair enough. I mean, Lebron was a mega star in
Cleveland, so yeah, he could have gone to like Denver or Salt Lake,
and probably the whole circus, the whole media circus would have followed him
at that point. I mean he was to this day. I mean,
look at look at the reaction of this documentary, Like his level of fame
is still just out of this world. So yeah, I think I think
the fame would have followed him, and this It is really fascinated to think
about what could have gone differently though, you know, widely considered by many
people to be the greatest of all time, and he played, you know,
fewer seasons than a lot of the other all time grades. He takes
it one half year break in the in the prime of his career to go
play baseball. He takes another break towards the end of his career before he
comes back in places for the Wizards. He missed an entire season with a
broken foot. There are a lot of interesting sort of turns in the road
in Michael Jordan's career. But almost every time he gets going, you know,
straight again and wins a bunch of championships. Obviously he couldn't do that
for the Wizards, but it's it's just remarkable to me that So I'm rambling
again, but this whole documentary, it's just been really really fascinating to be
taken back to that era of basketball and to get more of an inside look
of what really drove Jordan. I've just I've really really enjoyed this. You
might have set the record for ums in those takeaways that you've ever said I
respected. The last thing that I would like to see and this is let's
assort a little bit, but like, does he have any tightly knit relationships
from the any of these players that he played with? You know, our
Scottie Scottie Pippen and Jordan talked about each other in glowing terms, but are
they And same with Dennis Ronin and same with Phil Jackson, but like time
together. Yeah, and maybe could we get into Michael Jordan's like super Pettit
Hall of Fame speech a little bit? Maybe too, I'd love to address
that these might be separate documentaries. We need to talk about Jordan as a
as an executive and team governor, and also just his Hall of Fame speech,
and then maybe just he might not sign on for that one. He
doesn't need to, I think at this point, you know, we got
the Michael Jordan propaganda, now we can get the anti Jordan cases. Maybe
Lebron's people can produce it. So what if that's Lebron's documentary. Lebrons would
come out with a documentary with his career. It's gonna be Michael Jordan's post
playing career, and it's just how nice Lebron was to teammates behind the scenes.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, those would be things I'd like to
see. The Hall of Fame speech wishful thinking, but maybe they could get
into you know, if they're looking, it does seem like they're looking to
humanize him a little bit, and I do believe that they've done that to
some extent. But talking a little bit about what's happened, not just with
his family, his immediate family, you know what type of father he was
during all this, but maybe did he forge any lasting relationships that he's still
close that former teammates consider him a close friend today, because again they talk
about him with reverence, But there's just nothing really mentioned about. You know,
this isn't supposed to be a post playing career thing, but how many
stories have you read about his just ties to friends? Anyway? From all
this, I feel like that sort of maybe he's kept that under wraps because
apparently him and Kobe were very close, and so I'm not saying he owes
it to us, but that would be intriguing to see. And that's probably
something else you could argue would be nice to get more of a whiff of.
It's just it does seem like there was a deeper seated relationship between he
and Kobe that we only really we got a feel for him when he gave
a speech at Kobe's tribute and then they touched on it briefly here. It
would be interesting to go more into that. But of course they didn't think
that they were going to be dealing with Kobe Bryant post mis lead during all
this. Yeah, yeah, another tragedy for sure. Another Now I'm gonna
probably drop like five more on you. I always wonder too, like when
I'm in front of a judge, how many times am I saying in a
hearing or a trial? But that's just me I wanted to fill you in
on one thing before we wrap up. Unless you have any other takes on
episodes seven and eight of The Last Dance, No, I'm just I'm just
lamenting that there's not going to be episodes like nineteen and twenty. I know
that I needs. I'm with you. I think this could go on for
a long time, and maybe maybe it will, maybe there will be a
follow up documentary. As you're saying so, halfway through the nineteen ninety eight
Major League Baseball season, Mark McGuire had thirty seven home run Sammy Sosa had
thirty three, Ken Griffey Junior had thirty one, and it was definitely a
three man race. Had to have been talking about him, yeah, and
he was already a superstar at that point. He hit fifty six the year
before too, So I promise that was related because that's the summer of ninety
eight, same year that Jordan wins his last championship against the Utah Jazz.
If you want to talk to us about The Last Dance, you know that
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road, I promise. And until next time, we leave you with the
shout out to Kyle Anderson, Benna Udri and bj Armstrong, Sugar Ray,
Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns. Legends
whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive
their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four
part series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on Showtime