What's up, y'all is Drewski and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The Due Zone with Drewsky. Learn the backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time? Or no? Was the Rappers even started on the top? Come on, bro, hid that tell you like I'm fifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewski on Apple, Podcast, Spotify, and wherever you listen to podcasts. The Chasdown Podcast presents a City of Champions, a seven part series chronicling the Cavs twenty sixteen NBA Championship. With help from fans who cheered against US, reporters who covered it, and the players who watched it. We'll take you game by game. You're the most improbable three one comeback and championship history. Be sure to subscribe to The Chasdown Podcast or relymptic. Greatest series we've seen in our live times. One trouble Step Spot puts up a three won't go rebote up by Spake's final seconds. That's over. It's over. Play when it's a city of champions once again, the Cavaliers or NBA Champions. The series begins Thursday, April nine. Hey, Hi, Hello, what's cracking? What's popping? All that hardware? Knoxlist theirs? I am damp Valley coming at you. Without my co host Andrew D. Balley, We're rolling on with our decade player ranking series. Adam from l from NBA Math and Bleacher Report is joining me once again. We will be going through the top ten Cleveland Cavaliers of this past decade in just a moment. But first our usual housekeeping notes. Please continue rating, reviewing, and subscribing to us on iTunes. We really appreciate it. You can also find us wherever else you are getting your podcasts, whether that's Stitcher, Spotify, Google Play, all those places we are there. You can listen to us anywhere and everywhere. iTunes is still the best way to let us know that you're out there, that you're listening, and to help the pod in general. Please five star ratings right a review, especially if you have constructive criticism, and definitely make sure that you're downloading all of our episodes. If you have done all that, please recommendations. Those are equally appreciated as well. We're also on YouTube. All these podcasts are going on YouTube. Go to YouTube dot com search Hardwin Knox you will find us. Like our videos. Subscribe that is also also also appreciated. You can follow Hardwood Knox on Twitter at Hardwood Knox to the Blue Wire podcast Network where you can check out all the great sports content that we're pumping out. I really give a tremendous kudos to all of our podcasts for continuing to provide content during the coronavirus pandemic. They've they've really done a great job. Follow us at Blue Wire Pods. Last, but certainly not least, shout out to our sponsor this week, and as always at online dot ag, be sure to use the promo code blue Wire All one word to receive your welcome bonus. When you make your first deposit, you'll be hearing from them once again in just a moment. Now, let's get to talking about the best Cleveland Cavaliers players of the past decade with Adam frommel Adam, welcome back. How are you doing. I'm doing great. I don't know if you can see past my microphone here, but I am I'm wearing my Lebron James Cavalier's shirt in honor of this episode. I cannot see pasture. Mike, what is this Lebron James Cavalier's shirt? Say? Oh, it's him next to Jordan. Likes him next to Jordan. Yeah, I forget where I got it from. But that has a picture of the goat and Michael Jordan on it. That's correct. Okay, just making sure starting this one off strong. So we're doing the Cavaliers decade player rankings top ten between Adam, myself and then the fan voting. We will have our composite ranking. Go through that ten to one. As a brief reminder, I hope you check out all the previous posit we've already done. I'm not going to list them all. There are, however, landing pages up at MBA math, Subscribe to us on iTunes and also go to YouTube search Hardway Knox. We have a playlist with all of these podcasts on there. But we are onto the Cavaliers and let's start. Adam, who did the composite ranking, give us at number ten. The composite ranking at number ten. We had Deon Waiters, who was unanimously in tenth place for our three. Our three contributors, you and I both had him at ten. The fans narrowly had him at ten over a number of notable honorable mentions, including him On Chumpert, Richard Jefferson, Anton Jamison, and interestingly Andre Drummond. They were all pretty close to each other. But but Waiters did hold down that tenth spot. Yeah, I mean, there's not going to be an argument for me. I try. I will say that I did everything possible in my mind to keep Dion Waiters off the list, because I did too. I just couldn't do it, though, Like he at least did score a lot early in his career, and we're not exactly like working from a wealth of options. I mean, again, like drey Drummond was almost intent place on the fans vote, and he's played what like three games there. Yeah, and that's why he ultimately belongs there. And he spends basically but two and two seasons and change with them, I believe. And so there's relative to some of the other options, reading some of the people that make this list, he has the theirness factor over them. And like you said he could score, it was never two efficiently. He hit forty five point one percent of his twos with the Calves, which I'll say there's worse true shooting under fifty though, that's that's not great. He'll be remembered for not really being able to work with Kyrie, not really being able to work with with Lebron. But I don't know that you can justify if you wanted to go with a Richard Jefferson argument, because of what he did emotionally for the team during his two seasons there. I think we can absolutely listen to it, but when you're factoring in on the court stuff, it's really hard to I'm not trying to. Maybe this is a Dion Waiters bias, but one he's been awesome posting videos during the during the league stoppage, So shout out to Deon Waiders for posting video of him on roller skates around going around his apartment. But anyway, he looks good on him too. Yeah, he looks pretty fluid on them, so going backwards and stuff too. So just absolutely, I think this is a tough one, just because the last decade for the Cavaliers was essentially the four straight finals runs, so we're going to have the key contributors from that, But then the rest of it, like there hasn't been a losing there hasn't been a winning record in any of the other six seasons. I mean, we have nineteen win seasons, we have twenty one win seasons. So I think we're largely struggling to find those those obvious positives for players in this section of the rankings. So for me, it actually kind of mattered that Waiters they managed to turn him in a three in a three team trade with the Thunder and the Knicks into a mon Chumpert and JR. Smith, and you know, Smith played a pretty crucial part on some of those finals teams, So you know, as we're digging for these positives like that did play into my reasoning for having him at tenth and not going with someone like Richard Jefferson. I'd probably with it, which is ultimately also why I did not have Richard Jefferson at number ten. Hopefully that doesn't spoil anything. Who rolled in at number nine. Rolling in at number nine, we have Collins Sexton. Both you and I had him at ninth. The fans actually had him one spot higher. At number eight. I mean, he hasn't played much. We're midway through his second NBA season, but the leap that he's already taken in this second year, he just he looks so much better and more confident offensively than he did as a rookie. Twenty point eight points, three point one rebounds, three point i assist per game. He's shooting efficiently from three point range for the second straight season, which wasn't thought to be a huge strength for him when he was coming out of Alabama. So the development we've already seen his ability to take on such a large offensive role, it was hard to leave him off, despite the fact that he's only played one hundred forty seven games for this franchise. I actually want to give props to the fans for putting him one spot higher than us, because I wasn't I wasn't brave enough to do it. I was in the same boat. I just I didn't quite I couldn't quite pull the trigger on that one, and his shooting kind of has waxed and waned. But there was a point at the beginning of this year he starts off hot, thing goes a little bit cold, but then he catches fire again, and you know, the fire level of his shooting is closer to his normal than not. He's shooting almost forty five percent from three since January one of this season. He's also become a little bit better of a passer, and I think for what he does or what his role should be, that combo guard, that secondary guard, his passing has now reached a level where it's where it's adequate. And so if you're looking at him as a floor general, yes there are these potential problems, but if you're looking at him as that off guard, as someone who's going to predominantly come off maybe the bench would be a star six to man, I think he's fine there for what he for what he's already doing. And I also think, look, there are a lot of defensive miscues for all the Cavaliers as young guards, but he can really put some pressure on the ball when he's defending the ball. Watching him during those sort of high intensity spurts, I'm not I don't want to say him impressed there, but I do think that as the Calves are worried about forming a lee gaverage defensive backcourt, when you're dealing with either Darius Garland there, or maybe it's a Kevin Porter junior, or if you're trying to put all three of them on the court at the same time. I do think that Sexton can be a lot better of an on ball defender than people have realized or given him credit for it thus far, And that too did factor into me wanting to put him higher, But it also just factored into me in general making sure that he was on this list. The sample size doesn't really matter to me as much because I think he's established himself at the very at bottom as this legitimate, high scoring, efficient shooting guard. And at the same time, like there's been so much turnover within the Cleveland organization over the last ten years that we're talking about a guy who turned twenty one one hundred days before we recorded this podcast. He's only in a second season, which has been interrupted by this pandemic that has the NBA on hiatus. He's still tenth and minutes played over the last decade for the Cavaliers, so it's not like he's struggling in the arness category that has proved so important in these rankings. Wait, that definitely surprised me, just because you know, we view him as this up and comer who's so new to the scene. But again there's just been that much turnover. Yeah, that's that's a good point too. Who do we have at number eight? At number eight, we have Channing Fry. He was number eight for both of us. He was number nine for the fans, so just reversed there from from Colin Sexton's placement. You know, Fry was definitely towards the end of his career during the two plus seasons I guess really one plus because he was only there for one full season and two partial seasons, but he did play on those finals bound teams. He was clearly an important offensive contributor because of his stretchiness playing largely center for those teams. A guy another guy who was who was more there than anything else. But but at least he wasn't an active detriment to the team. And it's not unfair to say that he saved the twenty sixteen calves just from the stories that we hear about behind the scenes, how he really sort of hammered through the walls that were up and it sort of seemed like there was this level of separation between everyone in the locker room and it seems like he really was able to break that down, and I do think that's huge because look at, yes, we have to wait what happened on the court, and hey, you know, he shot over forty percent from three during that first half season in Cleveland, and he did shoot in the minutes that he played during the playoffs under fifteen per game, but he shot fifty six point five percent from three on two point seven attempts per game. So just that consistency from beyond the arc on the front line, then combining with what he did behind the scenes and kind of getting rid of jettisitting the clicks that were formed in Cleveland's locker room, I think it's absolutely huge, if only because we know what that team went on to do. It wasn't just win the title, but it was a race that three to one deficit against the best regular season team at the time by win total in NBA history. So that's absolutely huge. And I get if you're weighing on court contributions more than anything. I totally get putting him lower than this like the fans did, and I think there's that clear argument for Colin Sexton above him. But I had zero qualms about putting him at at number eight, and if I wasn't so much of a coward, I might have considered bumping him up even further. He actually did have one really memorable game too. It was Game three of the Eastern Conference Semifinals in twenty sixteen against the Atlanta Hawks. The Calves did go on to sweep that series, but they won one twenty one to one oh eight on the road, and for I was actually the leading scorer, not just for the Calves but for the entire game. He had twenty seven points and seven rebounds. Off the bench, shot ten of thirteen, made seven of his nine threes, and it was just like this relentless barrage. In the second half alone, he went four of five from downtown and ultimately like they were going to win that series even if he didn't show up and they lost that game for some reason, but at least he does have that one like that one highlight moment, he scored twenty one. He never scored more than twenty one points during the regular season with the Calves, but twenty seven in a playoff game on the road like that shouts to him. For that. I will issue a make coldblom myself. He shot thirty seven point seven percent during his first half season with the kaz and he was forty point nine percent from three during his loan full season in Cleveland. I did look at when he played the before he was straight in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. He wasn't really twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, Excuse me, he wasn't really shooting that well from three, But I ultimately just didn't care about that. Again, the things he did behind the scenes and then that anecdotal element that you just dropped, those are just absolutely huge attention Hardwood Knox listeners. With currently no NBA, NHL, or MLB, you might think that there's nothing to bet on. Well, you'd be wrong. Our exclusive partner, bet online still has hundreds of events, games and props to wager on, from their online casino to poker and blackjack. They're bringing Vegas to you. Missing the NFL no problem. Bet Online has live daily Madden NFL twenty simulations you can bet on. You can also bet on Survivor, Big Brother, American Idol, stock prices, even the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest, all open twenty four hours a day and all online. Use promo code blue wire to join today and receive your new welcome bonus. That's promo code blue Wire all one word that online your online wagering experts. So yeah, so let's go from one role player to another, because at number seven we have Matthew Dellavedova, who was seven for both me and the fans, and was up at sixth for you. I will be the first to admit that I am I'm biased against Delhi here as an Atlanta Hawks fan, I remember too many of the dirty moments in the playoffs and just generally didn't like how he played because I felt like, you know, there's always a line between there's a line in the realm of playing hard, and I think sometimes players can cross that and move into that dirty spectrum. And he was there for me, So I had to give him the respect that his steadiness and pesky defense demanded, but it was hard for me to do. So that's fair. The reason I put him so high is I almost respect how he became this defensive myth because of what he did against Stephen Curry. At certain points didn't matter if Steph was injured or that the defensive performances were wildly overrated. I do think there's one value in having someone that you can throw on Stephen Curry and say that you're not going to send a ton of double teams at him. But you look at Delavadova's defensive hustle and that's what really sells it for me, and for a good part of his time in Cleveland, his first in anyway, he's a consistent president, stand still shooter from beyond the arc. And so no, you don't want to trust him to really be a primary playmaker, even really a secondary playmaker, but that you can have him work off the blong offense and you know that he's really going to run his ass off on the defensive end, no matter who he's really facing. And again I do think his legend eventually outstripped his actual performance, but to just have someone that you trust enough to throw at those guys, especially when we've talked about how hard it is to defend point guards in general, how pointless point guard defense can be at certain points. Yes, you know, some of his tactics definitely questionable, but that's I don't want to say I admired that, but that's part of playoff basketball too. And he seemed to embody this bridge between an old school, news school approach during those postseasons, you know, specifically the first two when when Lebron comes back, and so that's something that I just really respect, and it also it also makes you feel like his theirness factor is higher than it really is, because yes, he's you know, he was traded back to the Calves from Milwaukee midway through last year, and he was on course to finish the season there this year, but you really only remember that first go round, which really only included two seasons of absolute relevance, and the fact what he did defensively, what his assignments were in the playoffs, his roles in the playoff. It elevates his thereness factor from actuality, and I kind of respect that that this is the player that has that type of anecdotal reputation. I think we often forget that he was a legitimately good shooter too, over forty percent during two of those first three seasons in Cleveland, but for whatever reason, he's completely forgotten how to shoot lately, only twenty three point one percent since returning to the Calves for the twenty nineteen twenty season, and he hasn't been a really effective shooter during any of his Milwaukee seasons either, But yeah, I mean that that prime year, if can we say prime for Matthew Delevadova, is that a thing? Yeah, twenty fifteen sixteen, you know, averaging four point four assists only one point five turnovers, being a reliable floor spacing three point shooter, being such a defensive pest, getting under the skin of opponents as as I've proved here. You know, those are all valuable. So I get the placement for sure. I love that in the two seasons he played with the Lebron Calves, he shot a higher percentage from three than he did from two. Definitely a function of respect for those guys, But I, like he said, I have major respect for those guys. Ye, so who checked it in the composite ranking at number six? At number six we have Anderson Verejau, who both the fans and myself had at number six, but you had down at number seven. I know that you have a hot take here that you want to share. I think that maybe there's there's some recency bias here given the direction that the game has gone, and perhaps it's the throwing cold water all over what you thought was a scorching hot take. I feel like he might be one of the most overrated players in NBA history. I know he has the All Defensive Team two thousand and ten to his name. That was actually not a part of this since it fell in two thousand and nine twenty ten. I just an incredible hustle player that I just feel like never really added a huge amount to even a semi significant amount of value. Like, yes he could, he could really hit the glass and if you're going to give him, uh, you know, open looks on the offensive end inside the arc, like, yeah, he's going to hit them. But what else did he have to his game? Like he would have to take so many of his shots really inside of eight feet restricted area. Basically not someone who's ever really able to create his own shot. Maybe he was a there was a point in his career where he was just a really good passer statistically, and so we always had that. I guess I Q part of his game, but it just feels like he is I don't even know what it is. Because he spent so much time in Cleveland played I don't know what about him fans actually love aside from the hustle, and to me that just the hairstyle too. He did have he had great hair. I will say that, and then look, you know twenty twelve, twenty thirteen averages over fourteen points a game for only twenty five appearances. The injuries also or something that I struggled with. You have that like there was was it like a three season block where he failed to appear in even thirty five games a year, And you know that's not I don't know that that that contributes to him being overrated, But I'm really just the way he played. I just never really saw him add significant value to two really good teams. And maybe that's underrating what he did during the early Lebron years. I think that's why why I struggled so much with him, because he was the toughest for me to place, for sure, and it was because of the injuries. It was because his best seasons came for really bad Calves teams, and he never contributed in the playoffs for the for the Cavaliers. You know, his last playoff appearance with Cleveland was in the twenty It was in the two thousand nine two ten season, which is not part of our purview here. So that definitely matters. But I think, at least anecdotally, he's He's part of one of my favorite favorite stories from this Calv's era. And maybe I'm misremembering here, but so correct me if I'm wrong. But during the twenty fifteen sixteen season, the Calves traded him to the Portland Trailblazers, who immediately waived him and he ended up signing with the Golden State Wars, which meant that he'd spent enough time in Cleveland but was on the Golden State roster. So no matter who won the twenty sixteen finals, he was going to get a ring. And I think that I just, for whatever reason, I remember that because it was such a unique situation. So kudos to him for that. I guess, did you actually get a ring? Wasn't there something going around that he didn't get a ring? I don't. I don't think that was the case. I feel like he got one. He got a Warrior's title ring in two thousand and seventeen. I don't think it's going to show up on like his official page or anything, but I feel like he's still got the hardware, just because he spent so much time with him during the regular season. But again, like I might be totally misremembering this, he apparently won't accept NBA championship does the headline if the Calves offer it. I don't know if this is now just outdated, but the Warriors offered him a twenty seventeen championship ring m Yes, okay, I am correct that he was guaranteed it. He was the first player per Elia Sports Bureau, to play for both finals teams in the same season, so he was going to get one if he'd accepted it. That is correct. Okay, that's a great could you argue for this specific podcast when we're talking about ranking Cavaliers that him being traded away from the Calves and then immediately going to sign with the Warriors once he had the chance. It's kind of just like you know or or is he does? He? Is it not any Is it not a moral in any way because the Cavaliers were the team that traded him and that sort of gave him carte blance ago wherever he wanted to go. I think that. But then also just the fact that you're bringing this up after after defending Dellavedova makes me even more confident in this opinion. All right, fair enough, who do we have at a number five? Yeah, So number five, I think is where we start, Like the much more obvious section of these rankings. It's JR. Smith. He was fifth place for me, for you, for the fans. He got almost half of the fifth place votes, like being exactly fifth placed on these top ten ballots. No one else appeared on more than three ballots in the fifth place spot, So like he was the very obvious choice here, and I think for good reason, Like he's clearly a cut below the top four guys that we'll get to, but at the same time, like he's the first guy where it's like, yeah, like he very obviously added value in Cleveland for a while. Yeah, especially when he was traded came over in that trade from the Knicks. He shot forty percent from three at six point six attempts during his time oh wait, during his time with the Calves for that season, So that's absolutely huge. He wasn't you know. He had some like pretty big defensive moments for them in the playoffs two and even throughout that playoff run. The twenty sixteen playoff run, he shot forty three percent from three and Lebron had to shout him out at the championship parade because they they basically got JR. They basically got JR. Smith for nothing, and so he was trolling the Knicks for not viewing. JR. Smith is even close to an asset, and everyone's going to remember him for maybe his exit from the Calves where he wasn't really around the team, or they're going to remember in the twenty eighteen finals, we got one of the greatest NBA memes of all time because we're throwing soup at Damon Jones. Throwing soup at Damon. Look, as far as I'm concerning, the soup incident has to boost him up a peg or two. Undoubtedly he throw a soup. I mean, that was one of the most fun days of Twitter that I can remember. Just like the speculation of why, of who he threw it at, of whether it's scalded them, what kind of soup was it? Like what kind of soup would j R. Smith enjoy during a practice? Yeah, there was like sources behind this too. It was like sources confirmed that JR. Smith threw soup. That's just absolutely fantastic. But look, and if you look at his Cavalier's tenure, in the aggregate, he for the most part, provided dependable three point shooting with someone who could at least move defensively for a lot of his time there. And to have that spacing around Lebron is I think paramount and a big part of why they were so successful just running through Eastern Conference opponents during most of Lebron's tenure. And look, if you want to ding him for what happened in twenty eighteen, that's fine. I still think that if the Cavs win Game one. First of all, we don't know if they would have still won Game one and that gap never happened. There's also the Georgio miss three miss free throws that we have to talk about there even if they do though, they're not winning that series, and so I just don't know how much you'd ding him for that. I know that Lebron was superhuman during that game, because when it is, really Lebron not superhuman in the playoffs. Yeah, so I get that point of it, But how do you put him outside of the top five? Who are you bumping up? Right? I do think you're selling his defense a little short too. I think he was more than just palatable during his first couple of seasons in Cleveland, like when he was fully engaged and accepting that role where he wasn't going to have as many offensive touches, like he seemed to be a legitimate positive on the perimeter. I'll just switchable. He was able to stay between his man in the basket at all times like he was he was. He wasn't a great defender, maybe not even like a really good defender, but I think he was like significantly above average. I get I don't remember him fondly during his final two like postseason runs with the Calves, but look in twenty in the twenty sixteen postseason, he played and defended a lot of three and that's not something that I feel like he really did in the other two postseasons twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, and so a twenty sixteen I fully on board with you. Maybe I'd have to go back and watch more of the twenty seventeen twenty eighteen playoffs, but that's probably a good talking point for his career in general, where I don't think he was ever People just assumed he was a bad defender because he was j R. Smith, but he was he was rarely ever the worst defender on the court, and there was probably something about playing with Lebron that maybe kept his consistency inline little bit perhaps, But that's something that I think you can go back and look at throughout his career, that he was probably unfairly impugned on the defensive end more so than he should have been. Never a great defender, but I don't think he was ever these you know, people treated him like he was Trey Young basically at points in his career, right number four. Yeah, speaking of guys who are not quite sure how to value their defense, we have Tristan Thompson who was fourth for me, he was fourth for the fans, he was up at third for you. I'm gonna guess that theirness played a part in that. Just because he's spent his entire career, which started in this decade with the Cavaliers, He's played over four thousand more minutes than anybody else in a Cavalier's jersey over the last decade. He's played more than two hundred and twenty games, or more than two hundred and thirty games more than anybody else in Cleveland over this last decade. Like that definitely matters and he's been He's been very effective, especially on the offensive glass throughout that time. It's everything you just said and it's me waiting the birness. But there's also you know, looking at this season in particular, they're just seeing like maybe like adding little layers to his game where it's like, oh, does does Tristan Thompson kind of have a floater now? And oh, Tristan Thompson is still playing like he gives a damn on defense, And oh, look at how Tristan Thompson is playing when the Cavaliers post drumm and trade, running out these three big lineups. And so there's I respect that he has had some good moments in the post Lebron era as well, and that I think drums him up just as much as the defense we saw from him during the peak of the Cavaliers in the postseason. And he's always been just as a big more switchable than I guess people do give him credit for it, but I don't think that it's just he's associated with it as much. And he is just one of the more mobile fives that you could trust, and he's not especially big for his position, and so the fact that you could put him on a lot of these other centers and trust him on the offensive glass. It's actually kind of a kind of a big deal. And so I was a little bit surprised that Kevin Love. I know he's a better player, but I really thought that Tristan Thompson's sort of theirness, coupled with everything he actually did on the court, would have gotten him in the top three. So we've been kind of focusing on some anecdotes with this Cavaliers edition. And here's another fun one. I think that when you look at a Basketball Reference player page, you see the player, the player's nicknames, the player's position, which hand they shoot with. And that's one of the most fun entries on the entire site is that they actually have shoots left handed, crossed out and then right handed. Because midway through his career he decided to switch and it actually it actually like worked, like as you said, like he's developed a little bit of a floater game. He's been even more efficient around the rim. I believe he's improved as or at least stagnated as a free throw shooter despite switching hands. And that's just like a really cool thing that you don't see a lot. But I also wanted to ask you, if we go back to the Charlotte Hornet's podcast, I asked you if you thought Marvin Williams had justified being the number two pick because of what he did post Hawk's career. So, Tristan Thompson was a number four pick in the twenty eleven NBA draft. He's never averaged more than twelve points per game, He's never really been a star. But has he justified that draft position just based on the consistency and length of his tenure in Cleveland? I honestly don't know. If you look at a maybe it's tough because we know some of the players that were taken after him in that draft. Kemba Kwai Kwaie Thompson was in that draft. I don't he's not. I don't think you call him a draft buss. That's where I landed with Marvin Williams. I think you'd still rather have many of the other players that came after him. Would you rather have had? Yeah? Or maybe not? Because I mean you get to a point where it's would you rather have had Marcus Morris or Tristan Thomson for their career? And I think Tristan Thompson. Is is the answer, you know, would you rather have had to Bias Harris or Tristan Thompson. I think there's a debate there, and so he's definitely not a draft bus bust. I just it's tough when you know, in hindsight, it's just tough when you know how many of the players came after him. You're like, well, he probably should have gone maybe ten or a little bit lower in that draft, was looking at some of the names. Yeah, I think regardless of where he should have gone, I do think he's done enough to justify it, you know, spending nine seasons and counting with the same organization and being pretty solid throughout it. Like, in some ways it's disappointing that he hasn't really grown more than he has since he entered the NBA, But at the same time, he entered with a very, very established skill set, you know, that that presence on the offensive glass that just demanded extra bodies. So even if he hasn't developed into a floor spacing power forward or center, even if he's never really shown much ability as a facilitator, you know, he's he's above two assists. He to the last two seasons, but those have come with an increase in turnovers, and it's not like you're really going to count on him as a as a primary, secondary or even tertiary distributor. But at the same time, like just the switchability on defense, the offensive rebounding, the ability to stay healthy and play season and play game after game until these last couple of years, all of that, I think if you told me that's what I was getting with the number four pick, uh, You're you're limiting your ceiling. But I think I'm okay with that floor. No, for sure, there, I think I was still with the player I'm gonna put against him right now. I think I'd still go with the other player. But there might be a debate, would you rather have Tristan Thompson's career or Nikola Vujevitch's career, where is clearly the better individual player. But look at the level of winning that Thompson has contributed to when the Cavaliers were actually really good, right, And that's the other thing, you know, just being a being an integral part of a team that went to four straight finals and won a title. You know, that's that's a big deal too, especially when you know, those were probably the seasons where if he was going to take some sort of offensive leap, it was going to be then. But those are the four seasons where he average single digit points sandwiched around these double digit seasons, which is a pretty clear indication to me that he was not only able to take a back seat, but he was he was able to do so willingly without complaining and without it letting effect the rest of his game. And that's that's important too. Who do we have at number three? No surprises here, obviously, Yeah, no surprises. It's it's it's Kevin Love. He was third for both me and the fans. He was down at four behind Tristan Thompson. For you, he hasn't spent as much time there. He was the clear third wheel on those on those finals bound teams. But at the same time, like it's Kevin Love, He's an incredible player, unquestionably an All Star caliber player. He has one of the most memorable moments in Cavalier's history, not just this decade, when he totally locked down Steph Curry at the end of at the end of a finals series to seal the championship. And I think that was a good indication of how he was such a defensive minus during his time in Minnesota that I think we forgot that this guy actually does have quick feet, He actually can defend on the perimeter, and Cleveland often let him do so. They were more willing to let him switch onto guards than we'd seen in his in his previous stop. But I don't think there's any argument for him being in the top two. But I totally get why he's third. Yeah, the defense defensive stuff is tough. You have to really slog down the pace for him to be viewed as any sort of switchable and so, right, and I'm not saying he should consistently do that, just that they were okay with him doing it sometimes right there. Look, he's been first of all, it sort of catches you off guard that he's been in Cleveland for six years now, doesn't it a little bit? Absolutely? And that he's fourth and fourth and minutes played, h and third in games played during this decade. And look, he's been good for the time that he's been with the Cavs, averaging seventeen points, ten rebounds, two point two point three assists, shooting thirty seven point five percent from three he's seen his two point percentage drop, but he's just he hasn't been as much as a post fixture, at least he definitely wasn't during many of those Lebron James years. Solid I don't have an argument against him being at number three. I just Tristan Thompson's there onis inevitably means more to mab Blake City had one of the biggest defensive sets in NBA history, really defensive stops, and certainly the biggest defensive stop of his career. Does it are you soured on where he would be in these rankings at all by the circumstances under which it seems like he might eventually leave Cleveland, where it seems like he's just been so wildly openly unhappy there, even though he's sort of come out and said something different, you know where it's like, you know, owning up through that behavior at points? Or does that not really matter to you at all? It did matter. I wanted to make an argument if I can, if I can reveal that number two is obviously Kyrie Irving, who was unanimously number two among the three contributions. I did consider pushing Love above Kyrie just because Kyrie's departure from Cleveland was so ugly, and then I was like, hey, wait, like this season especially, we've seen just how much of a malcontent Love has been, how it's obviously affected his play, and to some extent at least because this team was never going anywhere the team's play, and that his eventual exit probably is going to be similarly ugly. I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. So I couldn't bump him up because they both kind of fit into that world. Yeah, that's also fair. I think you also have to credit even though it was rocky at first, then they were all those rumors when he was entering free agency in the summer of twenty fifteen, the fact that he was like Chris Bosh, you know, he's able to go from being just the focal point of an entire offense to now he's all of a sudden the third wheel and more of a complimentary piece. And again, it wasn't always smooth, and perhaps it doesn't end as smoothly his time with Lebron as it did if they don't win that title. But look at what happened with Kyrie, where I know he was a little bit younger, but he didn't want to be even the number two on this I mean, so you have to credit Kevin Love, even given the onset problems, for making that transition from this really megastar fixture in Minnesota twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. Kevin Love was just an absolute monster too. And you know, he was a monster for basically the three seasons, three previous seasons as well, But you have to credit him for making the adjustments that he inevitably needed to when you're looking at his volume, his roles, at the type of shots that he's getting, and then the staying power that he's still allowed to have even in sort of that reduced capacity. And so there's not even a question to me that he belongs in the top four. It's just like I said before, I wait, Trisian Thompson's their theirness a little bit more. Yeah, I'm totally with you. Yeah, Like I said, I briefly toyed with moving Love up to second place over Kyrie Irving, which two people actually did on their ballots, and I kind of get it. But at the same time, like with Irving, he's still second in games played, he's still second in minutes played over the last decade, and even if the exit was ugly, he didn't bring back much of a package. Again it was it was centered on Isaiah Thomas, which just didn't work out because of the hip injury. Yeah yeah, I mean he's still like Irving was still an incredible offensive force throughout his time in Cleveland. He has in arguably, not even arguably the biggest shot in franchise history with his Game seven dagger over Steph Curry to win that twenty sixteen Finals. Just he has the anecdotes, he has the stats, he has the longevity, he has the force of personality for better or for worse. And I don't think we're going to forget Kyrie's tenure in Cleveland anytime soon. Look, you hit one of the five biggest shots in NBA history. I don't that alone just might be enough to put him wherever you want on this list below Lebron James. Even if he wasn't the consensus number twos there, I thought I was supposed to reveal the ranking. Sorry, I apologize everyone who thought that maybe Alonso g was gonna finally get his due. We apologize. I have no I don't really have anything to just add there. I it was interesting that he never really and part of this I think has to do with Cleveland's turnover during his time there, But he never really became the player that he is now more independent, where we saw in Boston that he can be the as as my phone goes off on my computer, I'm still working out the settings on my new laptop and I forgot to change that eye message. So if anyone wants ale there, it's not a humble brag. I was mourning the loss of my old one. Actually, there's nothing like spending unplanned money on a new laptop during a global pandemic. There's nothing like that feeling. Anyway, he gets to Boston, I think that first season there was really the first time ever he was a consensus top ten player. But it also showed, and even this season in Brooklyn before he got injured, and even in a second season in Boston, regardless of how choppy that one was, that he could be the anchor of just this good offense and a net plus overall for his team in a huge way by himself. And he never really got to that point in Cleveland. It was probably too early. They didn't have the talent around him before Lebron got there, But I did always sort of what gave me pause is how bad the Calves routinely were when he would play without Lebron during those Lebron years. It felt like a player of his caliber should have been able to navigate those minutes better that did not. Again, he was the clear number two for me, But that's always something I kind of sort of lamented, And maybe it was a supporting cast issue with who he's playing those those minutes with. But I do wonder if maybe the tenure there is at all a little bit different, if those minutes are better, or if it was more clear that Lebron viewed him as the person to which he was going to pass the torch, or maybe Kyrie just saw the writing on the wall. As much as he just liked playing with Lebron, maybe he also just knew that Lebron was going to leave and absolutely gut the franchise in the process, and he didn't want to be a part of that starting over journey. I think it could be a combination of all of the above, honestly, But my Kyrie, take here and tell me if it's tepid, if it's hot, if it's just warm is that he's been such an interesting figure for five years now, let's say, between the personality, the flatter thing, the conspiracy theories, the asking out, and the weird Boston tenure, that in some ways like he's kind of become uninteresting to me. I don't find him interesting. I do feel like maybe we've crossed the point where is he being unfairly covered? Where does seem like we get these this has nothing to do with his Calves tenure, I guess, but we get these super personal anecdotes. And in the age of what's the coverage of him has been strange for sure. Yeah, and the age of what it's supposed to be high end mental health awareness, it's weird that we're so quick to write him off as an ass, even though, look, jokes are gonna be made, that I've made the jokes, but there seemed to be that, you know, people who cover him from Afar. This isn't I'm not talking about the reporters who around him every day, but there are people who are just watching him or cover him from Afar who just assume that he's kind of a jackass and a team cancer. And I feel like that's unfair, and that's why I sort of find him interesting. It's how quick we're willing to just ignore maybe what could actually when he comes out and says that he was dealing with the death of his grandfather, how quick we are to not accept that at face value. I'm not trying to defend what he did. He's certainly a polarizing figure, and that's why I actually find him more interesting since he left the Calves than during his Cleveland days, and he's also been the source of some unsubstantiated rumors that are definitely unfair to him. So I think that, Yeah, I guess, like I don't know, I tend to gravitate away from the Kyrie Irving stories these days just because I don't I don't particularly like how the coverage has been centered around him. Sometimes I think that's absolutely spot on and fair. Who's our number one? Who's our mysterious number one? Yeah, he only spent four seasons in a Cleveland uniform on his second tenure, and it's Lebron James. You know, he was good at basketball, And I'm not sure how much I have to add beyond that, because it's like, come on, like, obviously he's number one, Yeah, let's move out of the honorable mentions as far as I'm concerned, Well, honestly, I wouldn't mind doing that because I don't think talking about Lebron James's tenure in Cleveland is particularly interesting. Year justin I will say the two things I'll note or one is a question, but the two things. One just an absolute beast in the playoffs. Like that's where I feel like the Lebron switch was sort of born, where Yeah, maybe he had a little bit in Miami, but I also think he was probably his best defensive self regular season wise when he was in Miami, and so he gets to Cleveland where there's just this switch where he could tell that he's really conserving himself during the regular season. Then he just goes off in the playoffs. I mean, not the most efficient finals in twenty fifteen, but not having Kevin Love or Kyrie Irving, there are moments like that that I respect just as much as I respect the block the title itself. My second point would be, what is the case for not having him number one on your ballot? It would strictly be player X if it's Kyrie played more seasons there, and I just don't think that that's a legitimate take. Yeah, this sounds like a good spot for some awkward silence in response to that question, I have no answers for that. Now. To follow up your first point, though, the rolling player ratings that we have on NBA MATH, He's got one of my absolute favorite career trajectories on that because it's always so high in the regular season, but without fail, his line moves up as soon as the playoffs start each and every year, and that's just that's not something we see, like even from the biggest superstars throughout NBA history, they'll have a couple of playoff runs where they really elevate their game, but not every single year without fail. But you know his finals record, So can we move up to the honorable Yeah? So at eleventh in the fan vote, we had Amman Schumpert, who was very very close behind Deon Waiters. At twelfth place, we had Richard Jefferson, also very close, thirteenth, Anton Jamison fourteenth, inexplicably Andre Drummond who has again played like all of three games in a Cleveland uniform. Fifteenth we had Kyle Korver. Sixteenth, we had Larry Nance Junior who I was. I was surprised that he wasn't higher up. He was really close to getting the tenth spot over Deon Waiters for me, and I think he's he's just filled such a valuable role, not necessarily for good teams, but throughout his time in Cleveland, just the efficiency and the two way contributions. Yeah, I'm certainly with you there. Don't aspect him to be a little bit higher, I wonder, and he was. He's one of those players where you can envision if he has kind of put him in a little bit better of a position, that you could see him being like even better than than he actually is. So yeah, I guess I didn't toy enough with putting him above Dion Waiters. I would think that there's a case though to get him into the top ten. So it was weird that he finished what was this sixteenth? Sixteenth, Yeah, seventeenth, we had Moe Williams, eighteenth, Jordan Clarkson nineteenth, Timofey Mozgov twentieth, we had a tie between James Jones, Baron Davis, and Daniel Gibson. And then the really fun one is twenty third. Whoever gave Zadrenas Olgaskis a fifth place vote. Like we're talking about this decade only. Helgaskis retired in twenty eleven after playing with the Miami Heat, so he played zero games for Cleveland. I'm not quite sure what the case is to have him here in fairness? Do you? In fairness who ever voted for him? I did use talked about Jarald Wallace making the twenty ten All Defensive Team is part of putting him on the Hornets All Decade Team. Now I think I put him tenth or ninth as supposed to fifth. And he actually did play for Charlotte during the decade, but just to play Devil's Advocate year. Sorry I didn't misspeak and it was sixth, but that's actually not that much better. So anyway, twenty fourth we have Jetty Osman in a tie. For twenty fifth, we have Darius Garland, Dwayne Wade, and George Hill, who have all had pretty similar careers. Tied for twenty eighth, we have Remote Sessions and Carlos Boozer, and tied for thirtieth with one tenth place vote a piece, we have Luke Walton, lu All Dang, Luke, Harron Godi and Derek Rose. Oh me, oh my, how did Darius Garland got a vote but Kevin Porter Junior did not? Luke Harron Godi got to vote in Kevin Porter Junior did not. Unacceptable Kevin Kevin Porter Junior is legit. I just I want to know, like I wish maybe I should include like a spot on the ballot for I'm being serious verse, I'm just totally trolling. Well, then you're gonna encourage trolls even more. We need I know, I know this shit. Yeah it needs Maybe it shouldn't be anonymous anymore. I guess like Harron Godi did play forty two minutes our forty two games in Cleveland, but he also shot thirty seven point six percent from the field twenty four point one percent from three point range, So uh yeah, it wasn't great. Maybe he's just the flex of they know who he is. Yeah, that's that's fair. That's that's a name that I have not thought about in quite some time. I wonder where Luke Heron Goodie is. Now, that's that's a separate pod. I think we can go at least sixty to seventy five minutes on Matt he is playing for oh man, I don't know how to pronounce this. He's he's playing in Spain. I know how to pronounce that. Well that vint Jovin tutt joven tut. Sure, all right, well you work for it there, I did not google that. That's the update you came here for. We're sorry we made you wait forty five minutes for it, but the reason you listen to the pod is now complete. Adam, Thanks again, this was so much fun. We have the I believe the Dallas Mavericks are up next. That's correct. I need to set up the poll for that one, so please fill out your ballots. Those will be out on NBA Math Twitter account at NBA Underscore Math follow them until next time. Adam and I leave you with the shout out to the apparently underrated, underappreciated Kevin Porter, Junior Sugar, Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran, Marvelous, Marvin Hagler, and Thomas Hearns legends whose four way rivalry define one of the greatest errors in boxing history, relive their decade of dominance in the new Showtime Sports documentary The Kings, a four parts series premiering Sunday, June sixth, only on showtime,