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Hello, and welcome to this episode
of Superhero Ethics. Today, we're talking

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about some of my favorite topics.
We're talking about challenging the roles the way

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people see who is good, who
is bad, and who is a monster.

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We're talking about gender, We're talking
about metaphors. We're talking about allegories.

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We're talking about nights in a modern
day setting with social media. Most

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importantly, we're talking about the Netflix
movie Pneumona and just how cute and dangerous

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a pink rhinoceros can be. All
that more. After a commercial break,

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we have no control over welcome back. This is Matthew. I'm your host

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us day. Then pronouns. This
is a movie that just came out on

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Netflix. If you haven't seen it, don't worry about it. We'll give

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you some some plot details, although
I definitely recommend he's just hit stop and

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listen to it first. There will
be a lot of spoilers ahead. But

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I watched this movie and I just
instantly knew there was so much about it

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I wanted to talk about, and
I wasn't sure who eat actually be the

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right person, And so I put
out a kind of call to some of

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my close friends, and someone who
hasn't been on the podcast before, but

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I really wanted to get in the
podcast, responded, and that's my friend.

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Bo. Bo was someone who I
know from judging. But I've really

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enjoyed following them on Facebook and social
media and the like and hearing what they

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have to talk about on so many
great topics, and soon we're excited to

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having them on the podcast. So, Bo, why don't you say hello

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and introduce yourself? And why when
I postioned about this movie you wanted to

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respond, Hey, so hello everyone. My name is Bo. I am

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Mix and Match today them he him
or she her pronouns. By the way,

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I do a little bit of everything
professionally. I'm a personal assistant to

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game design consultant, a legal advocate, and electrician, a software developer.

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I like to double. I like
to try things out and explore different avenue

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is, different facets of what appeals
to me. And that's why when I

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saw the call to talk about this
movie Pneumona, I was so excited about

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it because this movie is very near
and dear to my heart already after it

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has only been out a week two
weeks at this point, and that same

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sort of idea of the like amorphous, like flexibility and fluidity of life.

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Yeah, that makes a lot of
sense. One of the main themes of

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the movie is the need that people
have that a lot of people have to

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put things into clear boxes. And
we'll talk more about that specifically, but

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they need to classify everybody else and
to decide who is good who is bad,

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and to think what are you?
And how foolish that can be?

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So so much to talk about.
Moving forward to this, let me give

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a quick plot summary, and also
I should say this is a it's a

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movie. It's based on a graphic
novel by the same name that is somewhat

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different, but it has the same
characters and a lot of the same themes

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and scenes. But this is kind
of more of a specific origin story,

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whereas my understanding of that graphic novel
is more kind of like a set of

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vignettes involving these characters. But hopefully
I think what that means is that we'll

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get a whole bunch more of that. But so in the movie, we

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start out by learning the myth of
this kingdom that long ago there was this

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little girl name is it glorel Glora? Thank you? That glore f was

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threatened by a monster and was willing
to hold a sword at the monster and

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say, go back into the shadows
from whence thou came? And that that

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became kind of the founding myth of
the kingdom, and so the order of

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Knights that formed to follow her ever
since their descendants have been the night that

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protect the Kingdom from monsters. And
we flashed forward two thousand years later.

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Now it's a very modern society.
There's you know, very much like our

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own, even a little bit more
advanced. There's social media, there's neon

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lights, there's glitz and glamor,
but there's still kings and knights. And

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so every time a new group of
knights as being inaugurated knighted, I guess

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it's presented in the Glorious Dome as
this big, sort of huge, kind

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of like coronation celebration thing. And
this year, for the first time,

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something crazy is going to happen.
It's going to be the first time that

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a peasant knight, someone who isn't
from They never really fully explain who the

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Royalty is, but I think it's
supposed to be clearly implied that it is

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the descendants of those original knights,
and so the big deal this time,

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though, is that Balluster, who
is a peasant who showed incredible bravery as

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a child, that he is going
to be knighted, and there's all sorts

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of concern. Is he going to
be able to keep us safe? No

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one knows. We get to the
nighting ceremony and something goes horribly wrong.

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A kind of laser beam shoots out
of the hilt of the sword the queen

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is giving him, and the queen
is killed. And in a scene that

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I asked, the responded to quite
a lot, although it's subtenly done that

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it's easy to miss. But basically, another night named Ambrose, who has

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been very clearly implied has a romantic
relationship with Balister, reacts and cuts off

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his arm that's holding the weapon that
killed the queen, and so somehow Balister

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escapes, and we cut to sometime
later. Balister is in this little cabin

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hiding from everything, and he has
built himself a mechanical arm, and along

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shows up this little girl who is
maybe like Ballister, doesn't know the age

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of children, and gets made fun
of that. I think she's supposed to

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be I think prefubescent, but not
by much, and she is, as

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my spouse described her, the perfect
little Ferald Goblin child. All she wants

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is murder and to find his evil
layer. She's kind of disappointed with to

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find out that he doesn't think of
himself as a villain, but she's there

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to be his sidekick and to help
him get revenge on all the people he

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harmed. And they go through a
lot of the normal kind of like getting

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to know each other's stuff, and
he doesn't want her help, but then

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he needs her help. She says, you're gonna get arrested. He says,

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of course not, and then he
gets arrested. The humor in the

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movie is just an absolute top notch. And then she shows up to help

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him out of prison. He makes
her promise that he won't freak out when

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she learns what her secret is,
And it turns out her secret is she's

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a shape shifter and she can turn
into all of these like huge animal forms,

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all of whom are still pink and
utterly adorable. But managed to help

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him break out, and there's a
whole scene with her being a rhinoceros and

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a whale and all sorts of other
things. They escape. He's concerned about

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it, but they kind of,
you know, do a lot alike,

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getting to know each other more,
figure things out, but he keeps asking

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what are you? What are you? And we see that the rest of

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the Kingdom gets really freaked out about
this. They decide that these two are

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both terrible people. She's a monster, he's a traitor. Ambrose, who

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is his love interest and then cut
off his arm, is assigned to kind

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of take him down, and he's
obviously having some real concerns about this,

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but he feels he must do it. There's high jinks, there's adventures,

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and eventually the two of them figure
out a way. They figure out that

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the director of the Knight Institute,
the people who teach all these rules and

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ideas about how the world should be
and how the Kingdom should be, that

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she actually framed Balluster because she didn't
believe that a peasant could ever be a

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Knight, and so she framed him
and in doing so also killed the Queen,

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who she thinks betrayed everyone by letting
go the safety of the kingdom.

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One thing I actually mentioned also is
that the Kingdom is protected by a big

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wall, because the whole idea is
that there's scary scary monsters outside the wall,

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and we need to stay inside the
wall to be safe. So it

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looks like everything is fine. They
oh, because Ballister and Nemona come up

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with a plan to frame the director, make the director confess her plan,

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and they record it goes out to
everyone. Everyone figures it out, but

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the director has an ace upper sleeve. She has proof that Nemona actually is

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the monster from all the way back
a thousand years ago that Gloria fought.

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And not only does Ambrose believe this, not only, and so she's able

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to be like Ambrose, you're being
manipulated, you know. Don't trust your

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lying eyes, trust me, trust
Glorias, trust the myths you've always been

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taught and know it is. He
believed it, but when he finds out

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Ballister, someone believes it, and
Ballister challenges Nemona and calls her a monster,

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and Nemona just utterly breaks down and
runs away, and we get in

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a scene that I think, if
you can watch without coming to tears,

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there's something wrong with you, Fanny. Just such a beautiful, heart wrenching

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scene. We seen Amona's origin story
and she told this kind of fake origin

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story when she was trying to make
fun of Baluster for him needing to know,

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like what is she? But we
found out that her origin story actually

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has some basis in truth, and
that it is kind of based around a

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well, and it's that she just
kind of was this little force of energy

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kind of going through the world that
saw a bird and tried to become a

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bird and be friends with it,
and then the bird was scared, and

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then she tried to become other animals
like fish and deer, and they were

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all scared. And then a little
girl saw her, and she turned into

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a little girl when she saw this
other girl, and the girl saw her

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but wasn't scared and gave her a
present, and the two became friends.

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And we get lots of and the
little girl is clearly Glorif and we get

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lots of scenes and the two of
them being happy and frolicking and play,

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and I think they're supposed to be
implied a sort of like, you know,

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they are best friends at a prepubescent
age where they could very well grow

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up to have a romantic connection.
But you could read it either way,

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I think, and both readings are
completely fine. At one point, Glorth

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wants to get an apple, and
Nemona turns into a bird to get her

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the apple, and she's really worried
that Glorith is going to freak out,

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but Glareth doesn't. And now they
have great adventures with a little girl and

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her shapeshifting friend, and you know, she gets to ride her as a

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horse and play in the woods as
a gorilla, all kind of these great

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things until Gloris is like, you
know, frolicking with her friend when her

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friend is a bear, and some
adults find them and get very scared and

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point all these swords and things at
her and say, oh, you're a

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monster. You're a monster. Glaith, come be safe, you know,

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get away from that monster. And
here's the moment that kind of really breaks

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Nemona, where Gloth listens to all
the adults saying that's a monster, and

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that becomes more powerful to her than
her own memory of this being her friend.

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And at first Glareith had said no, no, she's harmless, she's

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my friend. But now Gloth like
picks up the sword and says, go

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back into the shadows, whence thou
came? And so this is kind of

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all the pieces have that fallen together. We understand everything, and I think

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this's just it breaks Nemona, and
Nemona turns into this huge, huge,

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monstrous form and comes into town,
breaking everything. But what we realize is

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and content warning here for descriptions of
desire for extreme levels of self harm.

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So if that's not something you want
to hear talked about, probably skip forward

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a little bit and we'll try to
your content whereas again, but it will

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be a topic that comes up again. But anyway, what we reveal is

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that what Glorith wants to do,
sorry, what Nemona wants to do is

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she comes to this statue of Glois
holding this huge sword, and she wants

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to drive the sword through her heart
to end it all, and she starts

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to do so, but Barrister is
now back and he prevents her from doing

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so with his mechanical arm, and
they kind of reconnect and he apologizes,

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and this leads everyone to figure out
the real truth that these aren't monsters,

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that they were the heroes. But
in kind of it seems at the end

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like she has had to end herself
to destroy the wall and kind of bring

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freedom and glory to everything, and
so people are living kind of happily.

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Ever after everyone's remembering them as heroes. Baluster and Ambrose are now clearly together

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again. And then in the last
but Balister's clearly sad because he thinks Namona

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is gone. He doesn't know if
she's she's dead, or if she's just

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kind of gone back into the memorial
nature from what she came or whatever.

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But in the last scene he goes
back to his sort of old hut and

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he looks sad and dejected, but
then he sees the kind of purple light

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that often surrounds her, and we
hear her voice say boss, and he

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says, oh, it's about to
say an exuative when we cut to the

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credits in the music. So,
did I miss anything? Obviously, there's

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a lot of good details. It's
a hilarious story. I missed a lot

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of the fun parts. But did
I cover the most important parts of the

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story? Yeah? You covered most
of it nice all right. Well,

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so let's let's talk more about what
is it about the story that really gets

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you? So? Oh big question
to start with. So I think that

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this story, and especially the changes
made from the comic version of this story

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that we originally saw, do a
really fantastic job of updating the queer story

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that it always has been to the
modern era and what presently is facing the

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queer community at large. There's a
lot of pieces that we can draw direct

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parallels. So a core part of
the advertising, a core part of Pnemona's

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initial message reaching out to Balister was
that they'll make you look a villain,

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and once they see you as a
villain, that's all you'll ever be,

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right. And I think that that
really strikes a chord with a lot of

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people these days, especially in the
transgender community, but in the queer community

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in general, that the vilification of
the queer community can dig so deep and

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that becomes all anybody knows about you, all a stranger will see. Yeah.

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One thing I was really struck by
when watching this is thinking about all

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these posts you're seeing where people will
take the smallest little thing and twist it

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and twist it to make it seem
horrible. I was just reading about a

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case where two women were out in
the park and they kissed and a child

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was present, and her there got
them arrested for sexual harassment of a child.

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You know. And and there are
the stories will hear about drag brunches

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or transgender people where things that we
take in a whilely out of context,

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and to me it is so baffling, and because all possible evidence is like,

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there is no grooming within the queer
community. There's grooming in every community,

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but the idea that the queer community
has a grooming issue more so than

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any other community is complete hogwash.
That there's nothing inherent about LGBT, you

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know, queer rights or queer pride
that is in any way harmful to children.

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In fact, we're the ones defending
children who are so often put at

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risk by by homophobia. And yet
people will see real life examples of this

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but then still fall back on the
ideas they're taught. And to me,

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with both Gloris and Balastar, you
get that of they have a lived experience

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of Pneumona being a feral god,
them a child who often talks about wanting

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to murder everybody, but actually,
like you know, there's a number opportunity,

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Like we never actually see her kills
of someone. We see her talk

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a big game, and we see
her want to hurt people for pretty good

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reasons, but like you know,
there's a scene where she turns into a

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cat. She makes a big deal
about like dropping a rat into her mouth,

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but she intentionally drops it just to
the side of her mouth, and

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we see clearly she doesn't harm the
rat, but with both gloris and blister.

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When the myth comes back to them, when all the other voices come

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back to them and say that's a
monster, they're willing to let that idea

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override their own lived experience of this
person. Right. And so there's a

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parallel from the original source that I
want to talk about in a bet with

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regards to like express and grief and
the ways that people will lash out.

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But something I want to get too
specifically relating to that story you told about

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the news article the women and arrested
in the park. So the director,

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the director of the institute who trains
nights, makes a speech at one point

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about her nightmares, this scenario that
she has lived and run through her head

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since childhood, of a crack in
the wall that she tells everyone, look

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out, look out, there's a
crack in the wall, and no one

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will listen to her. And it
grows and grows and grows until suddenly the

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monsters are upon them. And it's
done in this very very convincing way where

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you can tell that the director has
herself fully terrified at the concept of lowering

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your guard for a moment, to
any crack in your vigilance and that's it.

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The monsters will come for you.
And so that idea I think of

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the like imagining harm, imagining threats, and working yourself up about it to

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the point that you fully believe that
you are making the difficult decisions to protect

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yourself and to protect other people that
you have to because no one else is

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willing to make those difficult decisions.
That's I think a very very poignant parallel

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to the anti trans and anti queer
backlash, where people genuinely convince themselves that

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they are doing this for the benefit
of the public, for the greater good,

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no matter their harm. Yeah,
it's really true, and I think

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you can see that with everything from
like the bathroom fears to the sports athletic

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fears, things like that. And
I do think the fact that the way

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the director is presented and the fact
that, you know, one of the

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whole points is that I think Mallister
and Pnemona have so much in common,

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you know, in this regard.
It's a it's a story you've seen a

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million times before where pneumona is the
person who's been suffering the oppression all along.

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Ballister is the person who has just
experienced the oppression for the first time,

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and they're going to wind up teaching
each other because she's going to teach

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him that it's much worse than he
thinks he's Also they're going to teach her

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that there is some hope that she
can be loved and that they both can

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be loved. And I think there's
a really great tension between the two,

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and I think the fact that the
that the director has both is the embodiment

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of both of those prejudices, both
the fear of the monster and the fear

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of the peasant. The fear of
Ballister is one of the knights, is

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very very intentional because it's um and
the fact that I think that Ballister is

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portrayed as a person of color,
it is not incidental here in a world

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that is not entirely but it's primarily
made, and the director is portrayed as

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white. And obviously this is a
fantasy world and it's not to, you

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know, always project the racial or
sexual or gender politics of our own world

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onto that one. But the author
Andy Stevenson, who also he wrote um

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Shira and wrote lumber Janes and some
other great stuff. You know, I

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think he's always been made clear in
a lot of his works that, yeah,

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he wants to comment on uh you
know, he might be commenting on

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sexuality, on a gender, on
racial politics, and all the same,

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and and and so. Part of
the point is that not not that they're

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all the same, but that the
walls that protect you know, uh,

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the walls that are protecting from you
know, gender or sexuality, or the

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same walls that are protecting white supremacy, or the same walls that are protecting

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patriarchy, etcetera, etcetera. And
the idea that the director is, as

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you said, quite literally so scared
in a crack of any of those walls,

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it is very intentional. Yes,
absolutely, they The story does not

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make any sort of overt racism explicit
in the setting. But even looking at

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other lines from the director, during
the jailbreak scene, when the director and

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the knights left behind at the institute
are sort of picking through the rubble,

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she comments that the knights are squabbling
like common children. She says, rallies

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them all to say that we are
born to protect this kingdom. It's in

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our blood. We have a descendant
of Gloriff to lead us. She hammers

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home repeatedly that knighthood and the mantle
of protecting the common good is a matter

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of blood and nobility and those born
to do this, and it has very

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much that bend to it of the
same white supremacist the same racial politics that

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we see in real life being dropped
up by exactly the same folks who have

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issues with the trans community exactly.
Now, one of the other beautiful things

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about the story is not only is
it I think the queer in the trans

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allegory goes deeper because it's not just
about that the hate is the same.

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But Nemona as a shape shifter,
the way she spoke really read to me.

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I mean for me as as an
n binary person, I really identified

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with it. I'll speak with it
as well. But I'd love to give

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you the mike first, Like,
how did that part of Nemona's story resonate

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for you her being a shape shifter. Yeah, that's the way she talks

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about it, and like that it
gives a great line about how it itches

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to stay in her skin as a
girl all the time. Yeah. Absolutely,

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I saw so much of myself in
the way that Nemona talks about the

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sort of itch to shape shift,
the itch to like become something else.

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She comments that like if she tries
to hold in her shape shifting, then

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she wouldn't die, but she wouldn't
be living. And credit to the editors,

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there is in the background of that
scene actually a trans flag visible in

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one of the buildings. But like, as someone who is gender fluid myself,

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it speaks so much to my experience
of like, sometimes I enjoy presenting

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a certain way, putting on a
not even mask really, but putting on

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a certain facet of myself. And
other times I'll prefer a different presentation,

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a different voice, a different way
of posturing that isn't pretend it isn't a

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mask. It's different, but it's
still me and that's really important. And

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that's done so beautifully in the way
Nemona shape shifts and specifically talks about her

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shapeshifting in that all of it's her, sometimes as a bear and sometimes as

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a rhinoceros, and sometimes as a
shark, but she is Nemona. Yeah,

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And that's the thing she keeps saying
every time Malister tries to pin her

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down because he keeps saying, but
okay, but what are you really and

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her response is I'm Nemona, and
he gets mad. He says, that's

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not a real answer, And I
think part of the point is it is

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his ignorance, but I think we're
supposed to understand that, like he is

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being challenged, but he comes to
understand it by the end of the movie.

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And you know, I think one
of the most beautiful parts of it

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that what he says to her right
after he stops her from pushing herself onto

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the sword. He said, the
first thing he says is I see you.

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And that to me is such a
beautiful sentence because what he's saying is

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he sees all of her. It's
not that he just sees the girl or

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it just sees their anocero or the
whale or the bay or any of it.

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It's that he sees all of her
and that she is Pneumona. And

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yeah, for me, that also
really resonated because for me, I don't

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think of myself as fluid necessarily,
but the need to put myself into a

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specific gender box has always really not
worked. And it's part of why non

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fine air and queer because kind of
the box of not being in a box,

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and in a weird way. I
also feel this in something that is

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not related to my gender at all, but as a fundamental part of how

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I appear to the world, which
is when I put my prosthetic leg on

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and when I go out in a
wheelchair, because I am perceived as fundamentally

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differently depending on those two things,
and sometimes I am in control of that,

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because I just am like, this
is how I want to be seen

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today, and sometimes it's okay,
well, actually, like my leg really

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hurts, or I'm going to a
place that I can't use my wheelchair and

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it's not something I can control.
So it's not a perfect metaphor of by

334
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any means, but it's fascinating to
me how much people will perceive me differently

335
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based on those things, and will
often think of me as, oh,

336
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you're you're you're normally this, but
you're sometimes that you know that, So,

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like my normal state is being on
two legs or my normal state is

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being in the wheelchair, and the
fact is neither of those are true.

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I'm I'm I'm adaptable and um yeah, So for me that also just resonated

340
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so hard that idea of absolutely,
stop trying to put us into a box,

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you know, trying to stop stop
trying to feel safe by thinking everything

342
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can be put in these neat little
boxes. Absolutely. I love the bit

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about like, normally I'm this and
sometimes no, no, no, the

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conversation between Baluster and Pneumona when she
is pressing him to accept her as his

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sidekick and he says, can't you
just be you? I don't follow girl

346
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you. She's like, but I'm
not a girl. I'm a shark.

347
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And that, like, like you
said, challenging that idea of their being

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a normal state and a not normal
state. All of it is her.

349
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Yeah, even to the point where
at one point she becomes a boy,

350
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and she becomes a boy. I
think in that moment for very clearly strategic

351
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reasons, because it's a disguised so
that she can manipulate people in the like,

352
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oh look, I'm just a cute, harmless little boy. But she

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doesn't say I'm going to pretend to
be a boy. She's just like,

354
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now I'm a boy. And I
think that line was again very very intentional,

355
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right exactly, Balluster, and now
you're a boy. And her response

356
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is I am today, not I'm
pretending to be or anything like that.

357
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Just I am yeah for now.
And I think one thing I also really

358
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spoke to is this idea that you
know so much of the debates today and

359
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this is not only like the attacks
from the right, but I think just

360
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as people are trying to figure themselves
out that term exactly, I think there's

361
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often a sense of like, oh, I to learn what my true gender

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is and everything else was wrong,
or I need to learn what my true

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sexuality is. And I think,
you know, and I don't identify as

364
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fluid, so you can probably maybe
tell me if this isn't a misapplication of

365
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the term, but part of what
I understand it would be both in terms

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of gender, but also, you
know, fluidity can apply to sexual orientation.

367
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It apply to a lot of things. You know. It is the

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person who would say, not,
oh, I used to think I was

369
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bisexual and now I realize I'm a
lesbian, but say, yeah, I

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was a bisexual in my twenties,
now I'm a lesbian. Ten years from

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now, I might be something else, you know. And I think similarly,

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you know, people can be that
like there are people who I think,

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like they know what their gender is, there they need to do things

374
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to make sure that their body matches
their gender, or should say, make

375
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sure that the way people perceive them
based on their body is going to match

376
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what their gender is. And that's
a whole other can of worms. But

377
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you know, and I'm not I'm
not by any means saying like, oh,

378
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no, everything is fluid. I
think for some people, like they

379
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.319
know exactly what their gender is and
it might conform with their sex asside of

380
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birth or it might not. But
for other people, their own their gender

381
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:11.759
itself is going to be fluid.
And then that's another part of the discussion

382
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.079
that we don't often leave room four
of, Yeah, a teenager is going

383
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to be this when they're a teenager, and maybe they're gonna be something different

384
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.519
their twenties, and maybe something in
their thirties, and or maybe they're gonna

385
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:26.119
be something on Tuesdays and something else
on Thursday. Absolutely, there was a

386
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:32.640
fantastic post to that effect I remember
seeing recently that really stuck with me.

387
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:40.880
That was a response to the idea
of sexuality or identity being a phase.

388
00:29:41.480 --> 00:29:45.160
And their response was, well,
yeah, it is a phase. But

389
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:51.599
like the moon goes through phases,
water goes through phases show me anywhere that

390
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.720
there is a permanent state of being. And I really liked that that sometimes

391
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:02.440
people do explore their gender, their
sexuality and land in this is me.

392
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This box is like matches my experience
and it is as close to my own

393
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:12.559
definition of myself as possible. And
that's great. And there are plenty of

394
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:19.319
people out there for whom the identity
or sexuality changes, even if it's fixed

395
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:26.839
at some times and then later they
discover something new, or people who genuinely

396
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.960
fully believe themselves and feel that they
are their gender assigned at birth and then

397
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:41.799
that changes. Yeah, there's definitely
like there's a degree to which people rally

398
00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:48.960
around specific labels or specific flags as
identity, and those are very helpful for

399
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:56.400
describing shared connection with one another.
But I think it's important that people don't

400
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:04.160
pick a new box to put themselves
in, because there's always going to be

401
00:31:04.279 --> 00:31:08.799
people that there is never a large
enough box. There is never a perfect

402
00:31:10.119 --> 00:31:14.720
way to define all of the walls
to surround. The inside is me and

403
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:18.559
the outside is not me. Yeah, and I think that's the story is

404
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.200
very intentional about that both being the
personal struggle, but also, like you

405
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:26.359
said, the outside is the inside
is me, the outside is not me.

406
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:29.920
That's also the walls of the city
that they're in. And this whole

407
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:33.480
idea of gloris did this, and
so it's fixed in time. There's gonna

408
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:37.599
be a weird analogy, but I
think it makes sense. I'm from New

409
00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:41.160
York City, as I will frequently
talk about, and I kind of like

410
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:45.519
an Irish immigrant, and that I
love my home and I will never tolerate

411
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:49.039
it to be disparaged and I don't
ever want to live there again. But

412
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.200
I went back to New York a
couple weeks ago, and every time I

413
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.720
go back, I see the parts
that I love and I remember, and

414
00:31:56.759 --> 00:31:59.559
I'm like, oh, this is
what New York is supposed to be and

415
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:01.160
the things that have changed, And
mostly I see that, you know,

416
00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:05.200
a lot of people who didn't grow
up in New York are moving to New

417
00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:07.640
York and changing things. And a
part of me grumbles about that, goes,

418
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:09.720
oh, you're not really New Yorkers. You don't know how New York

419
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:14.279
is supposed to be. But part
of what is allowed me to change that

420
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.000
is realizing, like my mother moved
to New York as a young adult,

421
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.559
as did most of the people were
doing so now, and that the New

422
00:32:20.599 --> 00:32:24.119
York I grew up with isn't what
New York was always and forever until it

423
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:30.440
changed. It is constantly changing,
and my grandparents probably were horrified about the

424
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:35.720
New York that my parents helped to
create and on. And that's the thing

425
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:37.759
is, I think it is very
easy for us to look at things exactly

426
00:32:37.799 --> 00:32:42.640
as they are now, or maybe
as our parents told them that they were,

427
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.240
and say, therefore, that's how
it always is and that's how it

428
00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:50.200
always should be. And we want
to kind of like fix a moment in

429
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:53.119
time instead of realizing it was fluid
all the way after this point and it

430
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:58.039
can continue to be fluid all the
way forward. Yeah. Absolutely, And

431
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:04.119
it's difficult to admit to being wrong, to admit that the things that you

432
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:08.240
know about the world might be incorrect
that your parents taught you about the world.

433
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:12.880
That's a big part of Ambrosius's struggle
in the movie, too, is

434
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:19.759
that he is trying so hard to
be the Night that everyone expects him to

435
00:33:19.799 --> 00:33:24.799
be as a descendant of Glorus,
and so it's difficult for him to question

436
00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:30.880
the Institute or to question the systems
that's around him. It's difficult for Baluster

437
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:35.519
as well, but he gets a
little bit more push from Mnemona on that.

438
00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:42.640
But challenging that concept of what you
grew up and what you're used to

439
00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.799
is so core to this movie.
Yeah, and let's talk more about that

440
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:52.839
specifically. A person on Twitter where
I follow quite a lot, the negotiator

441
00:33:54.119 --> 00:34:00.640
Omar. That's his name. The
actual name is the negotiator at the Negotiate

442
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.000
A ninety five in the In the
show notes, he's constantly talking about how

443
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:09.320
this movie has a very clear anti
establishment, you know, question the institutions

444
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:14.119
around you bent to it. How
do you see that playing out in this

445
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.320
movie? Yes, absolutely, That's
one of my favorite parts of this movie

446
00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:28.599
is that Pneumona and Balluster sort of
balance each other in the duality of the

447
00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:35.800
system can't be reformed, tear it
down, versus we can make this work.

448
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:38.400
The system works. People need to
have faith. It's just a bad

449
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:43.440
actor. We need to deal with
the director. So it's very much the

450
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:52.679
sort of rebellion versus assimilation that has
been a queer struggle for the entire time

451
00:34:52.800 --> 00:35:00.079
there have been queer people. The
idea that some people will aim to to

452
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:09.320
fit their identity and fit how they
present themselves into a majority non queer society

453
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:15.280
and assimilate for their own comfort and
for the comfort of others. And some

454
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:22.480
people are so radically queer, so
radically different in their identity, that assimilation

455
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:29.840
isn't possible. There's no way for
their identity and who they are to fit

456
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:36.440
the existing pattern. So I love
that that's a focus of this movie in

457
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:45.159
a way that Ballister's belief all the
way up to the director's like correction video

458
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:50.920
of this wasn't me. All the
way up to that point, Ballister believes,

459
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.960
no, no, we can't shake
people's faith in the institute. We

460
00:35:55.039 --> 00:36:04.199
can fix this. And Pnemona,
on the contrary, is trying to tell

461
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:07.480
him, no, there'll never be
a place for us in this city.

462
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:15.320
Right And and there's actually a really
beautiful moment where that flips at the end

463
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:22.119
where Ballister tells this leads back to
what you mentioned very early in the episode

464
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.480
about the two of them teaching each
other in a lot of ways, where

465
00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:32.679
Ballister reaches the realization that there will
never be a safe place for us here.

466
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:36.440
We have to abandon it, like
we have to leave the city,

467
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.840
go over the wall. No one
will change how they see us, and

468
00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:45.400
Namona says, well, you changed
how you see me. Yeah, we

469
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:50.840
shouldn't have to run, and so
that's when they decide to make a stand.

470
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.960
Yeah. I really appreciate that we
framed that because there's a great deal

471
00:36:55.000 --> 00:37:00.840
of specificity to how that conflict has
played out within queer and trans and game

472
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:05.360
lesbian movements. But it's also one
that in some form another plays out in

473
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:12.639
almost every justice movement you can find. You know, it is often reduced

474
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:15.519
to Martin Luther King versus Malcolm X, which is not really accurate, but

475
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.559
there definitely were those two sides,
and a lot of the civil rights movements

476
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.519
and a lot of the feminist movements. You look back at the union struggles

477
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:25.400
of you know, from the late
eighteen hundreds all the way to the nineteen

478
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:30.519
forties or fifties, and you had
everyone from capitalism is great, we just

479
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:35.679
want more capitalism to let's tear down
capitalism entirely, like these are always and

480
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:39.599
I'm a big believer that most movements
need the two of them intention but a

481
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:43.960
lot more of the like let's look
at the problems of the whole institution.

482
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:47.199
And one thing that I really love
about this is that. I think it

483
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:53.880
also another aspect that it adds is
that the amount that you are willing to

484
00:37:54.079 --> 00:38:02.079
question every part of the institution often
is directly tied to how much privilege has

485
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:07.400
the institution give you, any given
you Because Pneumona is the person who I

486
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:12.239
mean, the entire institution was quite
literally built against her. She's never seen

487
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:17.719
the good in this baluster is someone
who he was able to find his way

488
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:22.039
into the institution, you know.
But but notably, we don't ever hear

489
00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:25.719
him saying, so now we should
like, now that I become a knight,

490
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:30.239
we should tear down the idea that
only nobles can be knights. And

491
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.920
maybe he says that offscreen, we
don't know, but I think it's I

492
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.159
think it says something that we never
say. That He has someone I think

493
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.920
brought into the idea of not that
it's wrong to think no peasant can ever

494
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:45.199
be a knight, but you are
an exceptional peasant, and we should acknowledged

495
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:49.599
that some peasants can become knights,
etc. You know, he's somewhat brought

496
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:53.360
in, but then once it's only
once the system turns on him that he's

497
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:59.400
willing to question it as well.
And as you said, Ambrosia, he

498
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:02.719
never really he has always been benefited
by the system. This system is what

499
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:07.559
it's told him that he is so
good and wonderful. And I think the

500
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:09.559
movie it's amazing. It's only like
a ninety minute movie, but it gives

501
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:15.079
us these three very powerful character arcs
for all three of them, because he

502
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:19.000
gets to go through this moment of
having to see it challenged, not because

503
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.280
of what it's doing to him,
but because of what it's making him do.

504
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:28.679
True person he knows he loves right
that, Ambrosias has this really powerful

505
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:37.440
moment. It's like finally realizing what's
going on when during the Pneumona's march from

506
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:45.280
the city, he sort of looks
around himself at the cannons turning inwards towards

507
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:51.000
the city itself, fire, mayhem, panic in the streets, and he

508
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:55.599
questions, what are we doing?
Yeah, And that's his moment exactly that,

509
00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:00.559
like you said, of like for
him, it was very very much.

510
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:08.880
It took realizing what he has been
made to do by his support of

511
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:15.639
this institute. Yea, though he
plays into it and keeps going along with

512
00:40:15.639 --> 00:40:19.800
it, even as things get more
and more distastefully and even has, he's

513
00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:28.559
forced to turn on his love,
and he begrudgingly lets himself be sort of

514
00:40:28.639 --> 00:40:32.559
dragged along doing worse and worse and
worse things, until finally it snaps and

515
00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:38.599
he realizes, this is what I'm
supporting. You're right. It is such

516
00:40:38.599 --> 00:40:43.920
a beautiful moment, and everything about
the way he turns makes so much sense,

517
00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:50.079
and I think in his journey we
also see another element to this that

518
00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:54.880
I think is again a very intentional
metaphor, which is that even when the

519
00:40:54.960 --> 00:41:00.079
director is exposed, we see the
director admitting on tape that she did all

520
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:06.599
these terrible things, she's still able
to get out of it. And much

521
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:09.480
like you know, we've seen people
in our own world who have admitted terrible

522
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:14.719
things on tape and no one seems
to care because they're able to say,

523
00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.719
oh no, no, it's just
the you know, those other people twisting

524
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:21.960
it and all, and how is
it? She does it by appealing to

525
00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:28.199
the ancient sacred text. She shows
Ambrosius the text, which is kind of

526
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.199
the Bible or the Constitution. I
think those it's supposed to kind of represent

527
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:36.280
both of those. The way people
look to those documents and go, oh,

528
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.079
look, we can take this one
thing, regardless of anything else,

529
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:45.039
and say that proves the answer.
And thus anything that any fact, any

530
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:51.599
statistic, any true story I encounter, must be false because the primacy must

531
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:55.280
be given to this document. And
for Ambrosius, Ambrosia, and even for

532
00:41:55.519 --> 00:42:00.239
Balluster, it's the knowledge that,
like, well, we have the story

533
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:07.960
of Glorius, and it's so interesting
because there's a part of me that there's

534
00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:12.480
a part of me that really wishes
we got more insight into Gloris's story,

535
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:17.639
because it is really surprising that she
kind of goes from no, wait,

536
00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:22.679
that's my friend, don't hurt her
to all these adults around me. Must

537
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:25.039
be right, I pick up a
sword and hold it at you and say

538
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:30.800
you're the monster. Go away.
And I'm left feeling like there's a couple

539
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:36.440
of different alternatives that it could be
that she was kind of a you know,

540
00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:38.119
and if she's a ten year old
girl, I'm saying we should like

541
00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.440
you can throw under the bus forever. I think we can forgive her,

542
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:45.400
but that she might be someone who's
just very malleable to the voices of the

543
00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:50.480
adults around her. It might be
that she was saying go away, or

544
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.199
else you're going I'm trying to warn
you to run away so that you don't

545
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.079
get hurt, but I'm gonna do
it in the language that they'll understand.

546
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:02.239
We don't know, but I think, you know, another trope that's calling

547
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:07.719
upon is the you know, two
teenagers are discovered in a compromising position,

548
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:12.400
and one of them is more kind
of clearly out and the other one is

549
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:15.119
a Maybe it's not uncommon for the
one to be oh oh no, no,

550
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.760
she just that that that one seduced
me, you know, it wasn't

551
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.840
my fault, And like, is
that supposed to be what this is speaking

552
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:25.119
too? Is it supposed to be
something different? I don't know, and

553
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:28.320
a part of me wishes I did, but I think actually it makes the

554
00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:31.280
story even better that we don't,
because the whole point is that not only

555
00:43:31.320 --> 00:43:37.039
does Nemona Nut know, but all
these people who have built their whole society

556
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:40.039
on what they think Glorith meant,
I have no idea what was actually going

557
00:43:40.039 --> 00:43:45.800
through her head at the moment.
Yeah. I really liked the origin story

558
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:53.000
with Glareth because that's actually novel that's
brand new for Netflix. The original comic

559
00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:58.920
did not include that, and I
think that they did a fantastic job with

560
00:43:59.800 --> 00:44:05.000
how that works, how the like
you were mentioning before about like the sacred

561
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:12.039
texts, the like the mythos of
Gloris is the foundation for this entire city,

562
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:16.960
so it can't possibly be wrong.
So that's the banner that the director

563
00:44:17.840 --> 00:44:29.079
uses to shield herself from accusations.
But then also that's playing into that part

564
00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:36.000
of the story, is playing into
Pneumona's comment to Baluster very early on when

565
00:44:36.440 --> 00:44:39.000
he says that he just wants to
go talk to Embrogus and figure this out,

566
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:45.159
and she makes a comment about like, what you're going to trust the

567
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:52.920
guy who chopped off your arm and
he and he reacts really abruptly, not

568
00:44:52.800 --> 00:45:00.239
angrily or anything, but just hammering
home he was disarming a weapon, right,

569
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:06.000
And she comments, oh, they
brainwashed you good. And the same

570
00:45:06.039 --> 00:45:14.400
with the child's reaction to Pnemona the
dragon saving her from a car about to

571
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:20.280
crush her, and the child still
picks up a sword and points it at

572
00:45:20.280 --> 00:45:27.239
the monster because that's what she's been
taught. So I think that that's definitely

573
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:34.360
like, I can see what you
mean about Gloris having the like the one

574
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:37.239
foot in, one foot out reaction
of like, oh I know it's safe

575
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:40.800
if I back up my parents on
this, But I think a big part

576
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:50.800
of it is a sort of visual
metaphor for how to this day there's a

577
00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:59.639
lot of hate indoctrinated into children where
it doesn't take much for parents, community

578
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:09.400
leader, faith leaders, teachers,
for someone who has an agenda to plant

579
00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:17.199
hate in a kid to show them
that hating these people is the right way

580
00:46:17.239 --> 00:46:24.079
to do. This is right because
because they're evil, or because it's for

581
00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:30.880
the common good, or whatever the
reason is. Yeah, but that like,

582
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:37.079
children are so susceptible to being taught
that hate. And I think that

583
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:43.719
that's a big part of the parallel
between us watching Gloris pick up the sword

584
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:49.320
and point it at her best friend
Nemona, and the parallel with the modern

585
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:53.440
day child who has her life saved
and still picks up the sword and points

586
00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:57.239
it at Nemona. Yeah. No, I think you're right. I'd say

587
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.239
it's very two children. Unfortunately,
adults can often just as susceptible to hate

588
00:47:00.320 --> 00:47:04.920
and these ideas. Because I don't
want to keep going back to it's that

589
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:10.239
idea of the once that framing of
your monster, thus you are dangerous,

590
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:15.039
falls in all the other evidence goes
away. You know, the little girl

591
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:19.639
saw this dragon rescue her, but
it doesn't matter. She's a monster.

592
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.679
Glorith saw this girl play with her
and be safe with her, doesn't matter.

593
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:30.039
Now she's a monster. And to
me, I think that's that's the

594
00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.159
point that I think works so much
with that that sacred text that it goes

595
00:47:34.199 --> 00:47:38.039
into is we don't see the whole
thing. But I would bet everything I

596
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:43.400
have that the moment that we see
where Glory says, wait, no,

597
00:47:43.519 --> 00:47:47.280
she's my friend doesn't appear in the
sacred text. We don't get that complexity,

598
00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:52.119
We don't get that nuance. We
just get the moment of she held

599
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:57.480
the sword against the beast, you
know, and nuance, nuance doesn't build

600
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:01.880
Tradition is the thing you gotta high
of a solid, sturdy foundation of us

601
00:48:01.960 --> 00:48:06.880
versus them. Yep. And it's
one more place where the boxes. You

602
00:48:06.920 --> 00:48:08.679
know, it's just put everything neatly
into a box. You don't have to

603
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:12.360
think about it, you don't have
to worry. Seven else has figured it

604
00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.400
out. And I think this,
the whole story is just such an attack

605
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:17.760
on all of that, on you
know, any of these ideas, which

606
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.920
if you watch something like Shira which
is very much about like getting past or

607
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:27.199
ideas of what is good and what
is bad and who is the villain and

608
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.559
who is not and the mental way
is that being perceived as a villain can

609
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:35.280
can tie you into knots and the
trauma that can do These are very similar

610
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:38.559
themes to that. I think the
author that it's something he really cares about

611
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:47.800
both absolutely and something else that I
think is seen in both that like is

612
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:52.239
not really part of a lot of
the conversations about Pneumona at the moment,

613
00:48:52.719 --> 00:49:00.880
but something really critical as the the
way that members of the queer community handle

614
00:49:00.920 --> 00:49:10.920
and process and deal with their grief
or their pain. Um because Nemona lashes

615
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:15.280
out. She's aggressive, she is
loud and proud and in your face,

616
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:22.880
and anyone who doesn't accept that she
beats them up. And the moment with

617
00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:30.039
Um with Baluster noticing that she's been
shot with an arrow and the tenderness that

618
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:37.239
he shows her, the genuine care
stuns her Um because she's not used to

619
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:45.280
that. And Shira has a very
similar story where Adorra sort of bottles herself

620
00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:54.639
up in not expecting her true self
to be accepted, and that means that

621
00:49:54.679 --> 00:49:58.920
she has to prove herself time and
again and time and again, and she

622
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:06.440
doesn't hold room for herself to be
cared for. And that I think is

623
00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:15.280
a like those facets of how the
queer community deals with vilification, or deals

624
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:23.800
with even potential vilification, knowing that
people will see you this way. Yeah,

625
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:28.360
and I think that's again one of
the things of where the context matters

626
00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:32.519
so much, because I think they're
again there's a beautiful metaphor of Pneumona.

627
00:50:32.719 --> 00:50:37.440
As you said, she lashes out, but also she's just very She's very

628
00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:40.480
in your face about everything. You
know, she doesn't want to be perceived

629
00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:45.119
as normal, even when she's even
when she's presenting herself as a girl.

630
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:50.719
I should say that even when she
is a girl, she doesn't look like

631
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:52.760
she You know, when she appeared
as a girl with Glorif, she had

632
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:58.960
this long, beautiful hair and she
looked very feminine. Here she looks like

633
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:00.960
she came straight from a concert.
You know, she's got like short hair.

634
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:05.079
She's up piercing her tattoos, but
like she looks like she could.

635
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:10.119
Um, she looks very metal and
her actually like metal, does have a

636
00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:17.320
good number of piercings. Oh yeah, she's got some spikes along the cartilage

637
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:22.960
of one ear, a star on
the other ear, study rings on both.

638
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:28.159
Oh yeah, that speaks to me
even more that I'm an idiot for

639
00:51:28.199 --> 00:51:30.800
not seeing that. But no,
you're totally right there, um, and

640
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:35.320
yeah, I think that's that's the
I think one of the attacks often can

641
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:37.719
be like, oh, why do
queer people have to be so in your

642
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:38.920
face about it? You know,
because, as you said, there are

643
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:43.519
some of us who want to have
two point three kids in a white picket

644
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:45.639
fence, just with a person of
the same gender, And then there others

645
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:47.360
are like, no, I want
to be very in your face about the

646
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:51.920
fact that I'm living a completely different
life than anyone else is. And I

647
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.920
think that that this isn't to invalidate
that at all, but it's to say

648
00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:59.119
that I think that that because I
think it's a very valid choice whether or

649
00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:01.119
not you've had any trauma. But
I think part of what Namona's showing is

650
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:06.599
that she's kind of in a position
of when the entire world has already rejected

651
00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:08.199
you, why wouldn't you reject the
whole world, and why wouldn't you make

652
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:10.760
it very clear to the whole world
you don't give a damn what they think,

653
00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:21.480
absolutely very much the like she has
a line at one point of Balluster,

654
00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:24.039
like trying to calm her down,
trying to ease her back from something,

655
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:29.159
and she says, we're villains,
Embrace it. Yeah, And like

656
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:35.039
that is just her character through and
through is the in your face, I'm

657
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:38.440
here, I'm loud, I'm proud, yeah, And so much of the

658
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:44.320
queer community is that way exactly,
because like, if no one is going

659
00:52:44.360 --> 00:52:50.679
to accept you anyway, if there's
no degree to which you can present a

660
00:52:51.559 --> 00:53:00.760
like palatable side of yourself, then
why not why not just be comfortable,

661
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:05.320
decorate your body how you want,
tattoos and piercings, do what makes you

662
00:53:05.360 --> 00:53:12.079
comfortable, because your comfort, like, there's no degree to which you can

663
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:17.079
make yourself comfortable to others, So
it's better to make yourself comfortable to yourself.

664
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:21.639
In many ways, I think of
her character as kind of the living

665
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:28.920
embodiment of the phrase be gaydu crimes. Absolutely, but because like of the

666
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:32.239
like fu factor of all. But
also like you know, many people I

667
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:36.840
know live by that phrase. They're
not robbing banks, they're not mugging little

668
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:42.639
old ladies, they're not actually like
it's much more about like rejecting the idea

669
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:46.599
of following the rules, rejecting the
idea of and wells recognizing that there aren't

670
00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:52.159
awful lot of unjust laws and that
that you know and and you think about

671
00:53:52.159 --> 00:54:00.159
it. What Pneumona's first criminal act
is to rescue someone who is fairly imprisoned,

672
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:06.119
and so like that idea of again
it's doing crimes because like it's recognizing

673
00:54:06.199 --> 00:54:08.519
the difference between justice and law,
you know, or what's right and what

674
00:54:08.679 --> 00:54:15.920
is legal not legal? Absolutely,
yeah, so much of so much of

675
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:23.920
Nemona's lashing out at the Kingdom,
there's a fantastic, fantastic detailed is easy

676
00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:31.239
to miss in the emotion of the
moment. But during Nemona's march on the

677
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:37.079
city, as she is in her
monster form headed towards the sort of Gloria's

678
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:45.280
statue, even towering one hundred feet
tall, she is not the one wreaking

679
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:52.400
havoc on the city. She is
just trying to get to the statue.

680
00:54:52.719 --> 00:55:00.679
And all of the fire, the
carnage, the broken buildings are this city

681
00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:07.559
lashing out at her, And so
there's definitely like, so Pneumona is this

682
00:55:07.719 --> 00:55:16.400
like feral goblin child. She is
this like rabid ball of energy. But

683
00:55:16.679 --> 00:55:22.280
even in all of her lashing out
and all of her like look at me,

684
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:27.840
I'm here, you have to deal
with it. She doesn't do it

685
00:55:29.360 --> 00:55:37.480
to hurt innocent people. She doesn't
do it to be evil. She does

686
00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:42.639
it because she's hurt and she's lashing
out at the people who hurt her.

687
00:55:42.760 --> 00:55:47.639
And the city didn't hurt her,
the institute did. Yeah. I totally

688
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:52.119
hear what you're saying there, and
I think it's so vital, especially because

689
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:55.920
it then takes us into a cycle
that I think we see in the real

690
00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:01.679
world all the time, which is
that people society or institutions or governments treat

691
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:09.320
an individual or group badly, that
group responds and that you know, and

692
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:15.519
whether it is a like organized protest
or lashing out in anger or whatever it

693
00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:19.239
is, and then their response is
what's remembered. It's, you know,

694
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:23.480
look at the criminal element and not
look at all the economic deprivation that has

695
00:56:23.559 --> 00:56:29.559
led to that. It's look at
the way these people are breaking the law

696
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:31.519
instead of look at the way that
you know, we backed them into a

697
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:37.079
corner, and that was fighting back
with the only option. Absolutely, So

698
00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:43.119
yeah, that's that's the very like
Balluster's approach versus pneumonas the assimilation versus revolution

699
00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:51.800
approach, where there's so much of
the pressure on the like the pressure on

700
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:57.639
the queer community that comes from the
left politically speaking, is tone policing is

701
00:56:57.800 --> 00:57:04.239
like, you have to do this
the correct at the polite way that will

702
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:09.239
sometimes get results but often takes too
long or doesn't ever find results. And

703
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:14.239
then often and again I think this
is very intentional, so much of the

704
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:19.239
way that the gay and lesbian movement
and then the LGBT movement, and then

705
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:23.960
very grudgingly for some the queer movement
found that acceptability and found that tone policing

706
00:57:24.320 --> 00:57:28.480
is by tausing trans people under the
bus, is by saying, let's work

707
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:34.760
for the more. You know,
it's easier to accept people living just loving

708
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:36.760
this one of the person. You
know, it's easier. And the same

709
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:39.760
reason why you know, bisexuals or
polyamorous people, or like anything that breaks

710
00:57:39.760 --> 00:57:45.960
away from because again always the question
is always society is both a box.

711
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:51.719
Is the fight to say we want
to be included in the box? Or

712
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:53.760
is the fight to say we want
to be given our own box? Or

713
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:57.920
is the fight to say, let's
tear down the boxes, and that's where

714
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:00.840
the conflict is always going to be
absolutely very much an argument for let's tear

715
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:06.000
it on the boxes. And I
love it. Mhmm, yeah, And

716
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:13.920
I like that in the original comic. So in the original comic there's a

717
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:20.480
sort of different setup. The general
framing is sort of the the Institute is

718
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:30.320
a villain and hero society that is
shaped in that way to create a comfortable

719
00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:42.079
narrative for the public to understand in
these conflicts, and that institute is maneuvering

720
00:58:42.119 --> 00:58:46.840
these conflicts between heroes and villains to
their own political lends, and and it

721
00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:55.960
ends in not just the director being
killed, but also in that entire institute

722
00:58:57.559 --> 00:59:04.880
being torn down. And we don't
see as much of that in the ending

723
00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:08.599
of Pneumona, the Netflix film,
but we do get hints of it,

724
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:16.639
where so we see the gun placements
on the walls being dismantled and brought down.

725
00:59:16.719 --> 00:59:24.360
We see the Night in the park
who is still patrolling sort of for

726
00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:30.360
the public good, but is themselves
disarmed as well. The Night isn't carrying

727
00:59:30.400 --> 00:59:37.360
their sword yea. And I think
that that is not as explicit a message

728
00:59:37.360 --> 00:59:44.880
as the comic about dismantling the system
of oppression itself, not just the bad

729
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:50.440
actors. But it definitely is hinting
at that that, Like, it was

730
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:55.079
not just the director who was at
fault for this, It was the entire

731
00:59:55.159 --> 01:00:01.639
institute, and it wasn't the fault
of any individual night in that institute.

732
01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:08.599
So Ambrosius was supporting the institute,
but it was not his fault that the

733
01:00:08.639 --> 01:00:15.119
institute was anti monster. Same with
Todd was personally kind of a jerk,

734
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:20.679
but he even has a moment at
the end of the movie where he lays

735
01:00:20.760 --> 01:00:27.440
down a flower on Namona's memorial,
and his actions were supporting the institute,

736
01:00:27.519 --> 01:00:34.480
but he personally was not a terrible
an unredeemable person or anything. Yeah,

737
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:44.000
but even despite the personal like,
even despite no one person shouldering all of

738
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:49.199
the blame for it, the institute
itself was the problem and had to be

739
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:53.519
dismantled. Yeah, I think that's
so true, And I think it's again,

740
01:00:53.519 --> 01:00:55.159
it's kind of the point we're trying
to get at with all this,

741
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:59.480
because I think often that's where we
fall. It's the you know, Oh

742
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:01.639
those were just bad cops, So
those were just bad soldiers. Oh,

743
01:01:01.719 --> 01:01:07.000
we just have a bad you know, this particular billionaire is the problem,

744
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:09.800
this particular individual, and so often
that's not the case. It's these you

745
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:17.079
can identify like particular people as as
particularly you know, as more or less

746
01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:21.239
abusing the power they're given by a
fundamental the corrupt system. But the system

747
01:01:21.239 --> 01:01:23.679
is still fundament that corrupt. It
has to be torn. Now we can

748
01:01:23.800 --> 01:01:27.719
keep going on this movie for hours
and hours. I want to wrap this

749
01:01:27.800 --> 01:01:30.159
up pretty soon. I'm gonna make
one last point. They give you a

750
01:01:30.199 --> 01:01:31.360
chance to kind of make one last
point and then if you want to share

751
01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:35.760
anything else about where people can find
you, which is just and this is

752
01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:43.199
something that um Nate Nate, right, is how Stevenson n Yeah, And

753
01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:46.599
this is something that can be found
a lot in Nate Stevenson's work. Andy

754
01:01:46.679 --> 01:01:51.840
Stevenson's work. He said at one
point that when it comes to the things

755
01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:55.239
he creates, you should just always
assume the characters are queer and less proven.

756
01:01:55.280 --> 01:02:00.920
Otherwise he really intentionally is trying to
write a world in which homophobia itself

757
01:02:01.039 --> 01:02:06.440
does not exist. And in his
version of Shira, I should be very

758
01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.480
clear like he did not obviously create
Shira. That goes all the way back

759
01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:14.840
to the eighties and he man and
but he wrote the modern version of Shira

760
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:20.079
that's on Netflix that is utterly beautiful, my favorite animated shows ever, really

761
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:23.400
one of my favorite shows ever.
And he does in this something he did

762
01:02:23.400 --> 01:02:28.480
in other things, which is that
there are all sorts of metaphors for homophobia

763
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:34.960
and transphobia, but there's a queer
couple in this clearly embarrassing and Ambrosius and

764
01:02:35.000 --> 01:02:38.239
the fact that they are two men
who are together is never commented on or

765
01:02:38.360 --> 01:02:45.760
is a problem for anybody. The
one jerk character teases Ambrosius about it and

766
01:02:45.800 --> 01:02:50.360
sort of wonders, like, is
the fact that you have romantic feelings for

767
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:53.599
the people we think as a criminal? Is that causing you problems? And

768
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:57.760
implies that that might be why he's
not a good person to lead the mission.

769
01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:01.760
And it's also kind of hinted at
that that he and others disapprove of

770
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:06.559
the fact of a noble having a
romantic relationship with a peasant. But the

771
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:09.639
fact that it's two men is absolutely
never commented on in any way, shape

772
01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:15.559
or form. And I I love
that because I think it is it is.

773
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:21.000
It is a very different experience to
see a metaphor for your trauma versus

774
01:03:21.039 --> 01:03:24.239
to see your actual trauma revisited on
screen, and more important to see your

775
01:03:24.280 --> 01:03:29.079
own trauma in a fantasy world.
And it's just it's something I wish a

776
01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:35.400
lot more writers and creators could learn
from of You can talk about issues without

777
01:03:35.440 --> 01:03:38.000
having to replicate them in ways that
are just going to kind of be you

778
01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:43.960
know, reentering abuse where it becomes
almost kind of you know, exploitative or

779
01:03:44.119 --> 01:03:49.039
or problematic for people to see.
Absolutely, Yeah, this was a very

780
01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:59.559
powerful queer story about rebelling against the
systems that oppress without actually having homophobia explicit.

781
01:03:59.639 --> 01:04:06.400
On Green. There is no explicit
anti gay sentiment projected by characters in

782
01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:13.599
the movie, but nonetheless that's still
the story and the metaphor that's delivered,

783
01:04:14.199 --> 01:04:17.280
right exactly. So that's my last
thing, any of the last things you

784
01:04:17.320 --> 01:04:21.719
wanted to bring appro mention. Yeah, the one biggest thing that I wanted

785
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:30.119
to talk about is the very stark
difference in the endings of these two of

786
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:34.599
the original print comic and the movie, and the way that I think I

787
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:43.760
really appreciated the update. Yeah,
And in the original comic, Pnemona splits

788
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:51.599
herself into sort of the anger of
how she has been treated versus her hope

789
01:04:51.599 --> 01:05:00.480
and compassion, and I like that
we didn't see that split here, that

790
01:05:00.039 --> 01:05:06.920
there is very much the message that
like, you can hold hope and compassion

791
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:14.920
in your heart and be always like, keep your heart soft, keep yourself

792
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:23.199
open to others, but still be
appropriately righteously angry and upset at mistreatment,

793
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:29.480
right, and that those are two
sides of the same coin, not split

794
01:05:29.880 --> 01:05:34.639
decisions and different ways to handle something. Yeah, I think it really makes

795
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:38.639
a lot of sense. And I
you know, my issues of graphic novels

796
01:05:38.679 --> 01:05:41.400
have been well documented on this and
not issues and I think they're bad.

797
01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:44.039
I just just know how my brain
works. I'm so glad you read that.

798
01:05:44.760 --> 01:05:45.920
My spouse also had and so she
was telling me a lot about it,

799
01:05:45.920 --> 01:05:48.960
and I just love getting an additional
perspective well both. This has been

800
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:53.239
fantastic for people who are really enjoying
having on the podcast. I might want

801
01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:56.280
to find you in other places?
Is the other places where you're creating content

802
01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:58.480
or just where your thoughts can be
found that you might want to point people

803
01:05:58.519 --> 01:06:03.000
to. So I don't really have
like a content portal or anything like that

804
01:06:03.039 --> 01:06:10.639
on the Internet. I can be
found basically anywhere that people gather Facebook,

805
01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:20.440
Instagram, Twitter, discord as minor
deviation and always happy to chat with folks

806
01:06:20.440 --> 01:06:26.239
who find their way to me awesome. Yeah, we will have links to

807
01:06:26.239 --> 01:06:30.280
those in the show notes. One
thing also knowing in terms of a please

808
01:06:30.320 --> 01:06:31.679
note cyberstock people, but in general, just you know, wanted to know

809
01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:36.519
who our guests are. I'm not
avoiding using any other parts of Bo's name

810
01:06:36.559 --> 01:06:41.000
because Bo's name is Oh, which
I think a really awesome story, and

811
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:44.639
I really appreciate how you have.
It's kind of one more box of breaking

812
01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:47.199
out of the idea that people have
to have two names. So it's another

813
01:06:47.199 --> 01:06:50.000
thing I've always admired about you and
that people can find if they kind of

814
01:06:50.000 --> 01:06:55.679
read some of your stuff. Of
course, absolutely, there's actually in that

815
01:06:55.800 --> 01:07:00.679
vein. That's another thing that I
really appreciated. I know we've been talking

816
01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:05.519
too long, but really appreciated about
Nemona's answer too. Who are you with

817
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:13.719
just I'm Nemona, and she sort
of forces people to conform, or forces

818
01:07:13.719 --> 01:07:16.679
people to confront the fact that boxes
don't fit her. And that's a big

819
01:07:16.719 --> 01:07:24.039
part of my choice and a mononym
that so much of modern society does not

820
01:07:24.199 --> 01:07:30.599
fit me because of who I am
and giving people that five minute window into

821
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:35.000
huh, that's weird. How does
that work? Is a fun way to

822
01:07:35.000 --> 01:07:40.159
get that ball rolling for everyone.
Yeah, No, it's so true.

823
01:07:40.159 --> 01:07:43.599
And I think for me, as
a person who is both polyamorous and disabled,

824
01:07:44.039 --> 01:07:48.599
I'm constantly facing situations of the world
is built to accommodate a certain kind

825
01:07:48.599 --> 01:07:53.039
of person and I don't fit.
And what happens when that happens? So

826
01:07:53.239 --> 01:07:57.920
I love that. So that is
bo I, of course am Matthew Fox,

827
01:07:57.960 --> 01:08:00.119
the Ethical Panda. If you search
for the Ethic Panda, most places

828
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.800
you'll find me, but also the
show note. The links are on the

829
01:08:02.800 --> 01:08:08.239
show notes, Twitter, Facebook,
email. I'd love to hear from you.

830
01:08:08.360 --> 01:08:10.320
Did you watch this movie? What
do you think? What was your

831
01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:13.119
feedback? What was your thoughts?
Would love to hear from you. I

832
01:08:13.199 --> 01:08:16.399
have some feedback piling up. I'm
gonna my goal for I'm not even saying

833
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:19.479
now, but I'm saying my goal
for the Fall is. My goal for

834
01:08:19.520 --> 01:08:23.840
the Fall is that we're gonna start
doing regular feedback every episode. But for

835
01:08:23.960 --> 01:08:26.039
now, I'm just gonna kind of
let it build up a bit and get

836
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.520
probably do a feedback episode in the
next couple of weeks, but please keep

837
01:08:29.560 --> 01:08:31.000
sending an let us know what you
think about this movie. We'd love to

838
01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:35.039
hear your thoughts. And of course
um on the Ethical Panta dot com.

839
01:08:35.079 --> 01:08:39.520
It's where you'll find the other podcasts
I do and how to support us.

840
01:08:40.039 --> 01:08:43.720
Patreon is a wonderful way to support
us. You get ad free episodes.

841
01:08:44.439 --> 01:08:47.159
Most episodes. I can't promise all
the most episodes are gonna get bonus Patreon

842
01:08:47.239 --> 01:08:49.920
content, which Boone and I are
going to do in a second. We

843
01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:54.279
will have a short Patreon section where
we're gonna talk about some other kind of

844
01:08:54.319 --> 01:08:57.279
pieces of work. They're similar to
this. Both has no idea what I'm

845
01:08:57.319 --> 01:09:00.560
talking about, so that'll be fun
too. But yeah, you can support

846
01:09:00.600 --> 01:09:02.760
us on Patreon. You can support
us also just by helping more people listen

847
01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:05.880
to it. Do you have someone
a friend of yours you've been wanting into

848
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:09.239
watching pnemona, or you've watched it
with them and want to talk to them

849
01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:12.800
about it. Forward them this podcast, tag us on any of the social

850
01:09:12.800 --> 01:09:15.479
media's let other people know about us. It's a great way to make things

851
01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:17.560
happen. So I hope you're gonna
stick around with the Patreon section, but

852
01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:20.359
if not, thank you so much, have a great day. We have spoken