WEBVTT 1 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:35.560 Welcome back to the Path Went Chili for part two of our series about the 2 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:39.159 murder of Kathy Page. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up on 3 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:43.439 what we talked about in our previous episode. Well, Kathy and her husband, 4 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:46.479 Steve Page lived in the town of Bider, Texas. They had two 5 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:50.159 daughters, but their marriage was falling apart, so much so that Kathy had 6 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.479 asked Steve to move out of the house into an apartment. But one night 7 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:56.600 she needed to go out and couldn't get a babysitter, so she asked Steve 8 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.920 to come by the house and watch over the children, and she claims she 9 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:02.679 was going out with her best friend, but it turned out that she had 10 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.799 actually started an affair with another man and they went to a hotel to have 11 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:11.120 sex that night. During the early morning hours, Kathy's car was discovered crashed 12 00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:14.200 into a ditch, and even though it was supposed to look like an accident, 13 00:01:14.519 --> 00:01:18.439 there were so much discrepancies to suggest that the accident was staged, and 14 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:22.439 it turned out that her exact cause of death was strangulation, and there were 15 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:26.359 a number of suspicious actions from Steve to make them think that he might have 16 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:30.400 been responsible. They found traces of semen inside Kathy's vagina to suggest she had 17 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.879 sex that night, but it turned out that some of the semen did not 18 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.040 have sperm, meaning that she had sex with someone who had a visectomy, 19 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:42.280 And since the man she saw did not have his vasectomy and Steve did, 20 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.840 he got questioned and he said that before she went out on her date that 21 00:01:46.959 --> 00:01:49.760 night, they decided to have sex on the living room floor, which, 22 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.599 needless to say, Kathy's family did not believe. The boyfriend was thoroughly questioned, 23 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.079 he was very cooperative of the investigation, and he was pretty much ruled 24 00:01:57.079 --> 00:02:01.400 out as a suspect. But everyone believed that Steve was responsible and that when 25 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:06.560 Kathy had come home that he may have gone into a range because he figured 26 00:02:06.599 --> 00:02:08.960 out that she had gone out with another man and he proceeded to rape her 27 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:13.680 or strangle her to death and then stage the car crash to make it look 28 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.800 like she was killed in an accident. As the years have gone on, 29 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:22.479 Kathy's family have put up billboards all over town directly accusing Steve of killing Kathy. 30 00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:25.120 But no matter what, it does not seem like the police think there's 31 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:29.960 enough evidence to foul charges and of course, the reason this case has garnered 32 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:34.400 a lot of notoriety in recent years is because it was an indirect inspiration on 33 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:38.719 the acclaimed movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. And that's what I'm going 34 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.080 to talk about right now. And I think it's safe to say that it's 35 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:46.080 a sign you're a big unsolved mysteries geek when you go to see Three Billboards 36 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:50.159 Outside Ebbing, Missouri in a theater and you start thinking to yourself, this 37 00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:53.599 plot kind of reminds me of the Kathy Page case. And then sure enough, 38 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:58.400 months after the film's release, you learn that the whole storyline involving the 39 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.240 billboards was likely in sp hired by that case, and it actually wound up 40 00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:07.159 getting Kathy's murder more publicity than it received in years. Like we mentioned in 41 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:10.240 our last episode, the film's writer, director Martin McDonough, has never been 42 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:15.360 able to confirm with one hundred percent certainty that the billboards he saw during his 43 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:19.800 bus trip through the US were for the Kathy Page case, as this occurred 44 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.199 many years before the movie was made, but McDonough did state that he saw 45 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:27.520 them in Texas, and as far as anyone can tell, there are no 46 00:03:27.639 --> 00:03:30.960 other documented cases in which a murder victim's family have put up billboards like that. 47 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:36.560 Now, I see dozens of new movies every year, and I picked 48 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:40.240 Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri to be my favorite film of twenty seventeen, 49 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:45.599 as it deserved all of the critical acclaim it received. It earned a total 50 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:51.319 of seven Academy Award nominations, with Francis McDermott and Sam Rockwell taking home the 51 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.039 Oscars for Best Actress and Best Supporting Actor, respectively. One thing I particularly 52 00:03:57.080 --> 00:04:01.520 loved about the film is that it often completely defied the audience's expectations. On 53 00:04:01.599 --> 00:04:05.000 the basis of the original trailer, I assumed this was going to be the 54 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:11.639 story of a heroic, inspirational mother seeking justice for her daughter's murder and battling 55 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:15.399 a corrupt, incompetent small town police department. But it's a lot more complex 56 00:04:15.439 --> 00:04:19.519 than that, and the film is populated by three dimensional characters, none of 57 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:25.199 whom are completely good or bad. Well, you can certainly identify with Francis 58 00:04:25.279 --> 00:04:29.759 mcdorman's crusade to find her daughter's killer, her character is hardly a saint, 59 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:33.279 as she is portrayed as a very flawed individual whose personal life was already in 60 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:39.040 a major shambles before she even lost her daughter. And it's also possible that 61 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:43.279 Kathy Page's murder is a lot more complex than it appears on the surface. 62 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:46.800 Well, you definitely do have the crusader when you look at Kathy's dad, 63 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:51.439 who's the one responsible for putting up the billboards. He's ninety years old at 64 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:56.319 the time of the recording of this podcast, and he said the billboards are 65 00:04:56.319 --> 00:05:00.399 staying up until this case is solved or until I die. And he's still 66 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.720 fighting at age ninety to make sure his daughter's voice is heard after her death 67 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:11.160 and that someone's paying attention to her case. It's absolutely heart breaking and it's 68 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.959 so moving at the same time. So I can't wait to go watch this 69 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.879 film now that you guys have shared that with me. I can't believe that 70 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.959 the billboards have been up for all these years. Yeah, Like James has 71 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:26.240 said that those are not coming down until I die or Steve is either arrested 72 00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.720 or convicted. So I think it's kind of good karma that he's been able 73 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.120 to live into his nineties because they're giving him every opportunity to hopefully witness his 74 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:39.399 daughter's murder. Get solved. James has lost a lot too, not only 75 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.000 to lose his daughter, but to lose his granddaughter Monica at such a young 76 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.199 age, and also to lose his wife Dorothy. I'm sure it's a major 77 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:50.439 thing that he's clinging on too. On the basis of how the story was 78 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:56.680 portrayed on Unsolved Mysteries and Quoll Justice, it's easy to assume that this is 79 00:05:56.759 --> 00:06:00.120 a pretty cut and dried, straightforward case of a woman being murdered by her 80 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:05.879 estranged husband while her family fights for justice and becomes incredibly frustrated when no arrest 81 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:11.279 is made, and that very well may be true. But what makes us 82 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:15.240 look at this case in a different light is a blog which has been published 83 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:18.800 by Kathy and Steve Page's oldest daughter, Aaron. The blog is titled a 84 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:25.240 Billboard in Texas and it was originally started in January of twenty twelve, and 85 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.680 over the years, Aaron has made a number of posts in which she is 86 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.680 alleged that the Fultons are not the close, tight knit family that they have 87 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:36.920 betrayed themselves to be. Aaron claims that she and her sister became completely estranged 88 00:06:36.920 --> 00:06:42.720 from the Fultons and she is particularly resentful against their patriarch, James Fulton, 89 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:46.240 whom she says she will always refer to as mister Fulton rather than Grandpa. 90 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:50.920 In fact, she's accused James and other members of the family of some terrible 91 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:57.199 things, alleging that James sexually abused Kathy. Aaron says as prompted her mother 92 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.959 to run away from home while she was a teenager, and that Kathy was 93 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:05.040 completely estranged from her family until a few years before her death. Aaron also 94 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:10.839 claimed that Kathy's sister Sherry once left a fake anonymous bomb threat note on her 95 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:15.959 school bus, and Aaron even testified about this at the civil trials. Now 96 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:19.560 we should make it clear that we've never seen any other corroborating sources to back 97 00:07:19.639 --> 00:07:25.600 Aaron's allegations about James Fulton. But over ten years ago, Robin visited the 98 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:30.720 Unsolved Mysteries wikia page for this case and discovered that someone had vandalized it, 99 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:34.639 accusing James of sexually abusing and possibly even killing his own daughter, and stating 100 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:40.680 that James paid Unsolved Mysteries to feature Kathy's case and presented it in a slanted 101 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:44.800 light to point the finger at Steve Paige. While we won't deny that Unsolved 102 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:49.279 Mysteries sometimes resented their segments in a slanted fashion, but we've never heard any 103 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:55.199 documented examples of someone associating with one of these cases paying the show to do 104 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:59.279 this again. I have no idea if there is any truth to these horrible 105 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.360 allegations about James Fulton, and we've never seen them mentioned anywhere outside of Aaron's 106 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:07.279 blog. But it just goes to show that Kathy's death has caused a lot 107 00:08:07.319 --> 00:08:13.399 of hurt and resentment among the pages of Fulton's. Let me start by saying, 108 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.680 you can say anything about anyone and make it as public as you want, 109 00:08:16.759 --> 00:08:22.920 and there's really no repercussions, even if that information is false to go 110 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.800 after them. And so it's sad when you look at this blog post that 111 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.759 she's doing and she's talking about the Fulton's skeletons in their closet, because remember 112 00:08:31.840 --> 00:08:37.159 she was what twelve at the time? Yep, that's correct, that's right. 113 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:41.840 Okay, So she's twelve and mister Fulton in her eyes is the big 114 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:48.639 bad wolf who is accusing her father of murder, and her father is her 115 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:52.120 hero. That's her safe space, that's the man who raised her. That's 116 00:08:52.159 --> 00:08:56.200 the man who helped her survive her brother's death. So you got to remember 117 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:03.320 what she really knows about quote Miss faulton her grandfather is likely what she's been 118 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:07.879 told by her father all of his family, who despised these people, and 119 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:16.759 they've purposely or subconsciously been manipulated to stay away from these people. And so 120 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.960 I think that you have to look at the historical trauma and the anger of 121 00:09:22.039 --> 00:09:26.000 the people who raised her towards the Fulton family. She doesn't know them, 122 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:30.360 my daughter right now, if you talk to her when she's forty and she 123 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.960 never saw my family again, she would only know them through what everyone else 124 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.799 told her about them. And so like for me, she only knows her 125 00:09:37.919 --> 00:09:41.200 daddy and his you know, legacy, because I talk about him all the 126 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:46.240 time. She doesn't remember that stuff. And so I can slant that however 127 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.399 I want. And here I think that family has so much rache to the 128 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.720 Fulton family. The last thing they wanted was those babies to have any connection 129 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.159 with them, and so they were raised thinking they're evil, we're good, 130 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.000 and look they're trying to take your daddy away from from you. I would 131 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.279 hate them too, if Aaron had heard this directly from her mother, which 132 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.960 I really doubt she did at the age of twelve. Why would you share 133 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.960 that with a twelve year old if she was eighteen, absolutely I would see 134 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.639 that would be something that you might share, or it may be something that 135 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:22.559 you would have hinted at because you would be very watchful of your daughter around 136 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.159 your father. If there had been sexual abuse in the past, or if 137 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:31.720 maybe she'd heard it from her aunt, from Kathy's sister, then I could 138 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:35.360 understand that that information may be more credible and I would put more give more 139 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.960 weight to it. But you're right, Ashley. Where else is she going 140 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.960 to hear this information? Likely in many stories that are going to be provided 141 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.879 by the Page family. Whether or not they did it on purpose, I 142 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:52.720 would say that there might be a motivation to do so. Who knows who 143 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:56.000 was the one who planted this idea in her head, but it seems that 144 00:10:56.039 --> 00:11:01.080 the likely source is the Page family, and I have zero doubt that Steve 145 00:11:01.159 --> 00:11:05.120 or someone else from his family was the one who vandalized that Unsolved the Mysteries 146 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:09.679 Wikia page where they set all that terrible stuff about James and said that he 147 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.679 paid off unsolved mysteries, and that it was slanted to point the finger at 148 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:16.320 Steve. And that's the thing about Wikia page is anyone can edit them at 149 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:22.759 any time, though thankfully these allegations are gone now. Erin also says that 150 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.080 the Fultons were so focused on getting revenge on Steve and pushing their own agenda 151 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:31.360 that they never considered how much pain they would cause her and her sister Monica 152 00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:35.360 by posting billboards which accused their father of murdering their mother. This is probably 153 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:39.840 just a coincidence, but a similar type of thing actually happens in Three Billboards 154 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:45.840 outside Ebbing, Missouri, where Francis mcdorman's surviving teh son becomes angry at his 155 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:50.919 mother's decision to put up the billboards without giving much consideration how the drama surrounding 156 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.200 the ordeal might affect him. Aaron has accused the Fultons of spreading misinformation about 157 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.600 the case in order to implicate Steve, and she would even go so far 158 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.679 as to during her testimony at the civil trials. For instance, Aaron claims 159 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:09.120 that the Fultons have greatly exaggerated a number of their claims about such things as 160 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.600 Steve renting out a carpet cleaner after Kathy's death, as she believed her family 161 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:18.759 already owned this carpet cleaner beforehand. In spite of their allegations about Steve being 162 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:24.399 physically and verbally abusive towards Kathy, Aaron testified that she never personally witnessed this. 163 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:28.279 In our last episode, we mentioned that when blood was found in the 164 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.519 living room carpet, Steve tried to say this came from Kathy's shaving her legs. 165 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:37.000 While that might sound ridiculous, Aaron did confirm that she had seen her 166 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:41.159 mother shaving her legs in the living room in the past. I'm shaking my 167 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.120 head from personal experiences, I know, when children are put in really stressful 168 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:50.240 situations like a divorce or a custody battle or stuff like that, it is 169 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:52.799 very possible for a parent in a very short amount of time to convince them 170 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:58.279 of what reality is when it's so far from what's really going on in the 171 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.759 circumstance. So when people want to manipulate and get children on their quote side, 172 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.840 they can convince them that whatever's coming out of their mouth is true, 173 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.159 right, like they tell them so many times, like don't you remember this? 174 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:15.559 Happening. Don't you remember when this happened? And they'll get up there 175 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:20.399 and tell it like they saw it with their own eyes and believe it because 176 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:22.519 the person who loves them is telling them that that's what happened, Like, 177 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.360 don't you remember do you remember seeing mommy do that? On multiple occasions? 178 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:30.440 Hey, don't you remember your mom used to do this? And when you 179 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.919 tell me that that's true facts, I expect my parent to tell me the 180 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.919 truth, and so I never questioned. I more would question my own remembrance 181 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.480 of that event. And in time, when I hear multiple times, I 182 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:45.440 can reiterate it as if I saw it with my own eyes, and they 183 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.840 believe it. So Unfortunately, Aaron was twelve when all this was going on, 184 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:54.480 and she's testifying years later. I've seen it happen in weeks where a 185 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.639 child can tell a scenario that never happened as if they lived through it. 186 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:03.080 Oh, I don't know. To me, those kids were put in a 187 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:07.840 very unfair situation emotionally and lost their mother, and I really believe they lost 188 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:11.440 the true essence of who their father was in that time too. Oh yeah, 189 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:16.159 We've seen this in a number of other cases where children are coerced into 190 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.279 saying things which they believe in their minds are true but are probably not. 191 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.240 And we had a discussion our last episode how it seems very unlikely that a 192 00:14:24.279 --> 00:14:26.840 woman would willingly decide to shave her legs in the middle of the living room. 193 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.399 Didn't It didn't happen. I honestly think those poor babies were manipulated to 194 00:14:31.879 --> 00:14:37.639 quote recall the truth when they were just being manipulated to say a story that 195 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:43.080 helped their father. In case you're wondering, Erin and Monica always maintained that 196 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.600 they went to sleep on the night Kathy died and woke up at eight am 197 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:52.360 the following morning without hearing or seeing anything unusual, even though it's been alleged 198 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.440 to Kathy's murder took place inside the house while they were there. Now, 199 00:14:56.480 --> 00:15:00.559 because Erin was only twelve years old when these events took place, you could 200 00:15:00.559 --> 00:15:03.519 easily assume that her father fed her a lot of lies as she was growing 201 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.840 up, a brainwasher into believing that the Fultons were bad people. But Aarin 202 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.480 openly denied this on one of her blog posts, as she always does not 203 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.919 defend or speak highly of Steve. Here's an interesting quote from her post. 204 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.720 I believe James Fulton and Steve Paige have more in common than they would both 205 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:24.440 care to admit. They both mistreated their children, and they both lost a 206 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.320 daughter. To me, this billboard is not about my mother. It's about 207 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.600 two stubborn, selfish men with too much guilt to carry. James Fulton gets 208 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:37.840 to pretend he's avenging his daughter's death, and Steve Page gets to pretend that 209 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.240 he's some sort of victim. The billboard is a crutch for them both. 210 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.120 End quote. It seems like after Steve moved Aarin and Monica to Tennessee to 211 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:50.320 live with his sister, he lost all interest in raising his children, and 212 00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.120 Aaron says they are now completely estranged and no longer have a relationship. She's 213 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:58.480 never flat out said that she believes Steve is guilty, but once stated during 214 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:03.879 a December twenty eighteen article in the Houston Chronicle, quote, I don't want 215 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.600 it to be my dad. I don't want my dad to have killed my 216 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:11.840 mom. What I want is the truth. End quote. Here's what manipulative, 217 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.960 evil parents do. They take their children and they use them as ponds 218 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:18.600 and tools to get what they want out of life, and when they're no 219 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:23.639 longer helpful to that task or they become a threat to their narrative and story, 220 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:26.600 they want nothing to do with them anymore. Like when the kids starts 221 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:30.559 to stand up and say, hey, that doesn't seem true, that I'm 222 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.879 questioning what you said, and you know there's any kind of pushback, and 223 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.360 they don't just go with the flow. Then you see that estrangement. And 224 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:41.879 the older she gets, you know that certain things start to click in her 225 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.120 mind. She reads about her mom's case and she starts to say, there's 226 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.919 a chance everything my father said, everything that I've done to defend my family 227 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:53.000 is a lie. Yet she can't prove it's a lie. So now she's 228 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:57.840 left questioning every decision she makes, everything she remembers. I could see where 229 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.639 a lot of resentment comes towards her dad. He didn't need her anymore once 230 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:04.960 he had moved away, started a new life. She becomes more of a 231 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:10.599 burden and a liability. And so why would he want to be a present 232 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:15.480 father and really active in their lives. I don't know. It's really sad. 233 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.559 I can see where her kind of anger and resembment and bitterness towards everyone 234 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:26.240 around her is present because if she can't trust her dad and she lost her 235 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.960 mother and she doesn't know if she can have any kind of relationship with her 236 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.680 mother's family, then who can she trust. She has that guard up around 237 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.920 her heart where she almost has to block everyone out because no one who's been 238 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:41.880 close to her either survives or is there to really protect her. So I 239 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:48.960 think she's a very frustrated human being with reason. She's been through a lot, 240 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.240 and now I think she's getting to the age where she's breaking things down 241 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.839 and saying I can't love either side of this issue because I don't know what 242 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:02.680 to believe. Yeah, it's unclear what she thinks about Steve's side of the 243 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:07.079 family, because we know that she doesn't love her father anymore, But she 244 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.519 was raised by Steve's sisters, so maybe she still feels some like love towards 245 00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:15.799 them. And if the pages gave her all this information saying that the Fultons 246 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:18.839 were bad people and very manipulative, then that's the side of the story that 247 00:18:18.880 --> 00:18:23.279 she probably believes, even though she does not necessarily think her father is innocent. 248 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.799 So we mentioned in our last episode that Monica died of a drug overdose 249 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:33.039 when she was only twenty seven years old, and it's been rumored that her 250 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:37.799 death was a suicide. During the aff war mentioned Houston Chronicle article, Aaron 251 00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:41.920 made a cryptic statement about how when Monica passed away, she began to see 252 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.559 her father for who he really was at Monica's memorial service. I'm certainly not 253 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.400 going to accuse Aarin of posting any lies or false information on her blog, 254 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:52.960 because I'm sure she sincerely believes a lot of the stuff she has shared, 255 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:57.920 regardless of whether or not it's true. Aarin has experienced way too much trauma 256 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.519 for one person to hand in their lifetime, as not only she lost her 257 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:06.240 mother and seeing her father get accused of killing her, but she has also 258 00:19:06.279 --> 00:19:10.319 lost her only sister at a young age. In the Cold Justice episode, 259 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:15.000 there's a scene where Kelly Siegler gathers the entire Fulton family together for a meeting 260 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.119 to discuss the case, and when they mentioned Monica's death, James becomes so 261 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.599 emotional that he is no longer able to speak and has to leave the room. 262 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.720 Well, the way Aaron tells it, neither James nor anyone else from 263 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.599 his family seemed to care much about her and Monica following Kathy's death, so 264 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:37.079 she believed her grandfather's emotional breakdown on camera was all for show. Regardless of 265 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.240 whether or not that's true. Aaron did not make an appearance at all on 266 00:19:40.279 --> 00:19:44.559 the Cold Justice episode, but her blog provides a sharp contrast to how the 267 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.400 Fulton family have been portrayed in the media and on true crime shows about this 268 00:19:48.519 --> 00:19:55.440 case. You know, Aaron's saying it from her perspective. She was isolated 269 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:59.480 immediately from the Fulton family. She was told those people are evil, and 270 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.359 I think the Fulton's realized very quickly we've lost them and they're in the clutches 271 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.680 of this abusive man who killed our daughter, and for their own peace of 272 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.039 mind, I think they have to place barriers up. It is a grief 273 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:17.480 in and of itself to say I've lost a connection with someone who's still alive, 274 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.960 but I can't have a relationship with them. They've either been manipulated and 275 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:26.240 taken out of my life, they've been relocated and I don't have access to 276 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.480 them. Whatever it is. There comes a time when people you love with 277 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.839 all your heart, you say it's not healthy to try to think about the 278 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.480 idea that I could have a relationship with her because she's so far gone from 279 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.079 me, He's not going to let me have access to her. They keep 280 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.680 manipulating them and telling them where the problem. They're in the hands of someone 281 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.240 who killed her their mother, Like, how much more am I going to 282 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.039 be able to reach out to my grandbabies. I think at some point they 283 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.519 had to grieve that loss too, and say, if we're going to have 284 00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:00.720 any kind of healing then trauma recovery, we have to grieve three deaths and 285 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:06.119 almost four that our son in law also is completely gone. We have to 286 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:07.960 grieve all of that, and then we have to figure out how do you 287 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.440 pick those pieces up and move forward. Aaron's a kid and doesn't understand that. 288 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:17.119 But if Aaron grows up and ever experiences heartbreak in her life and has 289 00:21:17.160 --> 00:21:19.920 to make a decision do I continue to have my heartbreak on a daily basis 290 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:25.200 to try to think about having a relationship with someone who is off limits or 291 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.960 unhealthy for me to have a relationship with. I mean, I have a 292 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:30.200 lot of empathy for the Fultons. I think at some point they had to 293 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.359 say, our grand babies are no longer going to be accessible to us. 294 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:37.559 It is just such a sad situation and we'll probably never know the full truth 295 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.720 about what has gone on between them, But we do know that James Fulton 296 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.599 will eventually pass away, and we know that he has been the major advocate 297 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.039 for Kathy, so I do kind of hope that when he is gone that 298 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:53.160 Aaron will kind of still pick up the raids and help keep her mother's case 299 00:21:53.160 --> 00:22:00.000 in the spotlight. However, even if Aaron's allegations about the Fultons spreading line 300 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.319 in misinformation to implicate her father are correct, that doesn't change the fact that 301 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:10.200 there is still plenty of evidence which looks very damning for Steve, and it's 302 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:14.519 really hard to come up with an alternate scenario that doesn't involve him being complicit 303 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:18.599 in Kathy's death. Well, Steve has never been charged with Kathy's murder. 304 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.319 The Fultons did manage to win a wrongful death lawsuit against him, though the 305 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.680 burden of proof for a jury in a civil trial is much lower than a 306 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:32.319 criminal trial. Steve is also charged and convicted of desecrating Kathy's grave, which 307 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:36.319 was backed up by videotape evidence, and while Steve said that he did this 308 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:40.759 out of frustration and anger of being falsely accused by the Fultons. It still 309 00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:45.640 doesn't look good for him. It's interesting how in all the older photographs of 310 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.759 Steve from when he was married to Kathy, he's clean shaven, but when 311 00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.079 he was interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries and Cold Justice, he had a beard. 312 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:57.279 Aaron's blog hints that this may have been intentional, as Steve decided to grow 313 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:02.920 the beard to disguise himself in response to having his photo plastered all over billboards 314 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:07.599 accusing him of murder. On the col Justice episode, Steve is interviewed at 315 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.880 his home by a pair of investigators, but the whole scene is very bizarre, 316 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.880 as Steve comes out to speak with them inside their car while he's shirtless 317 00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:18.799 and barefoot and dressed in nothing more than a pair of shorts. It's an 318 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:23.319 amusing parallel to when the Vider Police Department first showed up at the Page residents 319 00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:27.759 to inform Steve of Kathy's death, as he answered the door wearing nothing but 320 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:32.519 a pair of boxer shorts and did not bother to put on any other clothing 321 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:36.519 while the police were there. It's an insignificant detail in the Grand scheme of 322 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.160 things, but apparently Steve feels quite comfortable being questioned by the police while he's 323 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.880 shirtless and wearing shorts. I think it's it's just bizarre. I mean, 324 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.359 when you think about like I'm going to court or I'm getting a question by 325 00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:51.119 the police or things like that, you'd at least when I have your clothes 326 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.039 on. You know, if they asked you to turn the light on so 327 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.640 they can see your face, you'd probably turn the light on so they could 328 00:23:56.640 --> 00:24:00.880 look at you. He is a very bizarre character, for sure, and 329 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:03.680 very nonchalant, like yes, I guess if you're innocent, you would say, 330 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.920 like, well, who cares. I'm not getting all fancied up or 331 00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.880 trying to hide anything, So why am I going to change who I am? 332 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.160 But I don't know. When I think about the police knocking on the 333 00:24:12.200 --> 00:24:15.319 door, I'd be like, one second, please, and I please go 334 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.240 put a shirt on so I can sit and talk to you gentlemen. You 335 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.160 know, just a different kind of behavior than I would expect from most people. 336 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.720 So before we talk more about the case against Steve, we do have 337 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.759 to explore other scenarios which involve Kathy being killed by another individual and the only 338 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:37.480 one which would seem to make sense would be her falling victim to the secret 339 00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:41.640 boyfriend she was having an affair with. Now, this boyfriend's name has never 340 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.920 been released publicly, and for many years there was virtually no information out there 341 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:49.200 about him at all, other than the fact that he was very cooperative with 342 00:24:49.279 --> 00:24:53.119 investigators, passed a polygraph, and was not considered to be a suspect. 343 00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.759 However, the boyfriend did agree to be interviewed on camera during the Cold Justice 344 00:24:57.799 --> 00:25:03.400 episode, though as was blurred to conceal his identity. Before I watched this, 345 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.200 I didn't know any details about the nature of his relationship with Kathy, 346 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:10.920 but it sounds like he was not from the area and was just passing through 347 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.119 Beaumont when he met Kathy while eating at the restaurant where she worked. When 348 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.799 he returned to Beaumont on the evening of May the thirteenth, nineteen ninety one, 349 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.720 he was staying at the Best Western Hotel and wanted Kathy to meet him 350 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.119 there, which is why she arranged for Steve to babysit their kids. Given 351 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:30.279 that she asked Steve for a separation and he had just moved out of the 352 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.440 house into a new apartment. It obviously was an ideal for Kathy to ask 353 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.960 Steve to come back there, but it sounds like her decision to meet up 354 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:41.839 with her boyfriend was a last minute thing and she just could not find anyone 355 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.680 else who could babysit for I never thought the boyfriend was a viable suspect to 356 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.400 begin with, but finding out that he didn't even live in the area makes 357 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.359 it less likely that he could have killed Kathy. Why would he go to 358 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:57.240 the trouble of driving over ten miles from Beaumont to vide her to stage a 359 00:25:57.240 --> 00:26:03.440 fake car accident just over one hundred yards from Kathy's residence, Since he obviously 360 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.680 would have had to use Kathy's vehicle to get there, what would he have 361 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.880 used his transportation to drive back to Beaumont. In fact, given his unfamiliarity 362 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.519 with the area, would the boyfriend have even known where Kathy's house was to 363 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.960 begin with? This guy was already cleared by investigators, so I think we 364 00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:22.920 can safely say that he had no involvement in Kathy's death. But if Steve 365 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:26.680 found out about their secret rendezvous at the hotel that night, then you can 366 00:26:26.799 --> 00:26:33.279 understand why things might have escalated into murder after she returned home. And remember 367 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.880 he had made that phone call to the girlfriend she was supposedly going out with 368 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:40.400 that night, and the girlfriend answers the phone at two thirty, and so 369 00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:45.039 he knows that Kathy's not out with her. The next phone number he dials 370 00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.880 is a phone number to the hotel, and you know that he's not stupid. 371 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:53.599 He realizes that she is with somebody else and there has to be a 372 00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:57.359 confrontation when she gets home. Yes, he's living in a different apartment, 373 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:02.400 but this is his wife, and he's told people he's getting back with her. 374 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.039 This is clearly a night where she comes home and she says, no, 375 00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:10.119 you're not. I'm happy. I'm with somebody who doesn't make me feel 376 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.640 anxious and it respects me and that I want to be with. So I'm 377 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.400 never getting back with you. And so for me, it's very very clear 378 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.400 the boyfriend had nothing to do with it, and that it's a husband who 379 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:25.200 seems disgruntled and embarrassed that he didn't get things the way he wanted them. 380 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:30.680 Who was it? Robin that he was it Kathy's sister that said in arguments 381 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:36.319 he would push her sometimes and was violent. Yes, yes, and I 382 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:40.640 know that to Aaron has denied that that she never saw anything physical from him. 383 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:42.880 But I mean it's possible that they had these arguments and Aaron was just 384 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:48.960 not around to witness them. I mean a lot of parents who have very 385 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:53.640 tumultuous relationships will bust and fight when their children are in their rooms. They're 386 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:56.759 not going to do it in front of their minor children. So the fact 387 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:02.160 that Aaron didn't see this firsthand to personally doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 388 00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:04.640 Bingo, yep. It's always hey, honey, can you come talk to 389 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.240 me real quick? And then you get the better and your bos like listen 390 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.480 here, you know what I mean. Like, if you do try to 391 00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.039 hide your kids, you hide your issues from your children. They don't need 392 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.079 to see that. You never need to be putting your hands on each other. 393 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.400 But even when we have a disagreement or we're frustrated with the way something 394 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:23.880 happened at the house, we're not fussing about it in front of each other. 395 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.039 I'm like, hey, can we talk for a second, And he's 396 00:28:26.079 --> 00:28:30.799 like, oh lord, have mercy. Here it comes and we argue or 397 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:36.720 disagree behind closed doors because our kids sure don't need to see their parents having 398 00:28:36.759 --> 00:28:38.440 an issue. That's just they don't need it. They have enough issues going 399 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:44.279 on in their own little lives. As far as any other alternate suspects, 400 00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:48.759 well, I know that during his Unsolved Mysteries interview, Steve implied that Kathy 401 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.519 was killed by someone affiliated with the so called Beaumont Mafia, and I can 402 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.640 safely say that's one of the most laughable statements in the history of the show. 403 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:02.000 If you do a Google search on the frame Beaumont Mafia, most of 404 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:06.440 the matches you're going to find are sources about this case which mentioned Steve's comment. 405 00:29:07.000 --> 00:29:10.880 So this leads me to suspect that no such thing exists, as Beaumont, 406 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:15.640 Texas does not exactly strike me as a place that would be a hotbed 407 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.920 for mob activity. I know Steve claimed that he received a bunch of threatening 408 00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:23.759 phone calls from people who were supposedly involved in Kathy's death, but Aaron actually 409 00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:27.480 brought up a solid point to counter this in her blog posts. As far 410 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:32.200 as Aaron remembers, during the entire time she lived at her family's house in 411 00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:36.839 Fighter, the door was never locked. If her father was receiving threatening phone 412 00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:41.200 calls and thought the mafia was after him, why wouldn't he have taken steps 413 00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:45.319 to ensure the house was always locked or added extra security measures to protect himself 414 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:49.240 and his family. And really, if the Mafia really wanted to kill someone 415 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:53.039 in order to send a message, I don't believe that they would do so 416 00:29:53.119 --> 00:29:57.200 by attempting to stage a fake car accident. If the Mafia did want to 417 00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:02.359 stage an accident, they probably would have done a far less sloppy job. 418 00:30:03.119 --> 00:30:04.880 And can you tell me what Steve was involved with? It would make the 419 00:30:04.920 --> 00:30:07.960 mafia want to come after him. That's a good question to ask Steve. 420 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:11.640 It is, yes, exactly like And how would Kathy had become involved in 421 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:17.920 at the Beaumont Mafi as well? This is the thing with Kathy's death scene. 422 00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.079 It was just so poorly staged that it didn't fool the police for a 423 00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.799 second, and you get the impression that it was done by someone who panicked 424 00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:29.119 and didn't have much idea what they were doing. Kathy's boyfriend confirmed that she 425 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.319 left the motel in Beaumont at two thirty am, and it takes between ten 426 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.799 to fifteen minutes to drive Divide her since the car was discovered at four twenty 427 00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:41.920 am. There obviously wasn't a great deal of time for someone to kill Kathy 428 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:45.759 and stage the crime without thinking everything through. And really, since the car 429 00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:49.599 was found only one hundred and fourteen yards from the Page residence, it would 430 00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:53.000 have been easy for Steve to drive the car to that spot with Kathy's body 431 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:59.000 inside and run it into the drainage ditch before walking back home. For years, 432 00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:02.759 it was assumed that no eye witnesses saw Steve do this. But the 433 00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:06.960 big piece of new evidence that emerged during the filming of the Cold Justice episode 434 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:10.640 was the man who came forward and claimed that he passed by the car in 435 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.039 the ditch that morning and saw Steve leaving the scene. This guy claimed he 436 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:18.359 knew Steve personally and recognized him, but because he was with his mistress at 437 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.400 the time, he did not want to tell the authorities about what he saw 438 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.359 for fear that his wife would find out he was cheating on them. Now, 439 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.680 obviously, given that this guy waited over two decades to share this information, 440 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:34.960 you can understand the credibility issues. The Cold Justice team did manage to 441 00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:38.519 track down his mistress, and while she confirmed being with him that night. 442 00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:42.559 She was apparently asleep inside his car when he drove past the crime scene, 443 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:47.880 so she had no memory of seeing anything. But the team also spoke to 444 00:31:47.880 --> 00:31:52.000 the witness's brother, who confirmed that he heard him share this story about witnessing 445 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.119 Steve walk away from the drainage ditch years earlier. So at the very least, 446 00:31:56.400 --> 00:32:00.319 it does not sound like this witness just decided to come forward because of 447 00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.839 all the newfound attentions surrounding the case, due to the three billboards outside at 448 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.559 being Missouri comparison, But it also sounds like his statement was not strong enough 449 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:15.079 evidence to finally convince the district attorney to file murder charges against Steve. I 450 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:17.599 think there's fear of what the defense attorneys would say at this point. They 451 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:22.319 would talk about his character of having an affair, that he waited so long 452 00:32:22.440 --> 00:32:27.400 they'd bring in evidence by when his identification being wrong. How do you build 453 00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.599 a case just on that. But I do understand why he wouldn't come forward. 454 00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:36.359 He knew Steve so for his eyewitness identification. He called it a question 455 00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:40.000 that's much more common when it's a stranger sighting or in the midst of a 456 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.000 traumatic situation. You're trying to make an identification. But this is this guy 457 00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.079 that's having an affair. He's happy as can be on his way home, 458 00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:52.799 and he's looking around and he says, oh, that's Steve leaving the accident. 459 00:32:52.920 --> 00:32:57.319 This accident. Huh okay. I can't say anything because my wife's going 460 00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:00.759 to find out. And then years later he is separated from his wife and 461 00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.960 feels like he can come forward and say something. It is tragic that he 462 00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:08.319 waited so long, but I understand. I can see where he didn't want 463 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:14.599 to ruin his family with something he might have witnessed and might have seen. 464 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:17.880 And in hindsight, you look, had he come forward, this case would 465 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:22.680 have unfolded much much differently, And unlike some other eyewitness sightings like this is 466 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.559 very distinct. It's not like a witness trying to recall having seen a random 467 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.680 person in a random public place. Like if you see someone you know emerging 468 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:35.720 from a drainage ditch at three o'clock in the morning next to a down car, 469 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.160 that's going to be very memorable, no matter what the circumstances. So 470 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:42.599 I can see why that remained in his head for many years. And I 471 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.440 do not believe he was mistaken, and it's very memorable that he was having 472 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:50.680 an affair that night coming home. It's an odd scenario for him too, 473 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.680 like trying to hide and keep track of his own lines, and so for 474 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:57.720 me that day in the night would stick out in his mind as well. 475 00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:02.759 Of course, it's probably likemented in there because he knows what he saw and 476 00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:07.599 tying it to the affair. He doesn't want that smoke. He doesn't want 477 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:10.320 his wife finding out about the affair. And I mean, I don't know 478 00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.480 what the situation was and what lie he told, why he was able to 479 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.280 be driving around with his mistress at all hours, and why he couldn't just 480 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.599 say he was alone in the car and fabricate some story there, but it 481 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.760 obviously is something that weighed heavily upon him. And I mean, I will 482 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.800 at least say that we've got to give him credit for coming forward all of 483 00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:35.119 those years later. It's just so frustrating that at the time, his desire 484 00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:40.039 to keep the secret superseded his desire to intervene in this investigation in a positive 485 00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.000 way that might have resulted in this case being solved and at the very least 486 00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.400 a search warrant being issued in the Page House. Another unique character in this 487 00:34:50.440 --> 00:34:54.599 whole saga is Steve's close friend Roger Howell, who seemed to keep inserting himself 488 00:34:54.639 --> 00:35:00.400 into the investigation in the days following Kathy's death and was not exactly cooperative when 489 00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:06.519 investigators attempted to interview him. On the Cold Justice episode. It's been alleged 490 00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.280 that Roger helped Steve cover up the crime, as we have a story from 491 00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:15.559 Sherry Valentine that she saw Roger exiting the bathroom at the Page Resident scaring a 492 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:21.000 manila envelope which might have contained Kathy's missing watch, and we also have the 493 00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:24.840 claim from one of Kathy's coworkers that Roger told her that Kathy had been strangled 494 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:30.039 to death before her autopsy was even performed. Since Roger should not have known 495 00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:35.320 this information at the time, this seems to imply that Steve could have told 496 00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.719 Roger about what he did. The missing watch has always been the subject of 497 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:44.480 a lot of debate, because when he was initially questioned by police, Steve 498 00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.519 told them that he'd been looking in the jewelry box and noticed that Kathy's watch 499 00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:51.400 was gone, even though she was not wearing it at the time she was 500 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:55.480 found. If the theory is true that Kathy managed to arrive back home and 501 00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:00.320 took off her watch before she was killed, then it obviously would have been 502 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.599 in Steve's best interest to get rid of it. If Steve killed Kathy in 503 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:07.719 the heat of the moment and had to stage her accidency in relatively quickly, 504 00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:12.960 then her missing jewelry is probably one of the details he just didn't even think 505 00:36:13.000 --> 00:36:15.400 of at the time, because I'm sure there were a million things going through 506 00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:20.960 his head. Now, theoretically, if Kathy was killed by an outside party, 507 00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:24.360 you could push forward the theory that the perpetrator might have decided to steal 508 00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:29.719 her jewelry. But you can't really explain away Kathy's lack of makeup. Her 509 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.960 boyfriend verified that Kathy was still wearing it when she left the hotel. And 510 00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:37.760 I don't see some killer going to the trouble of wiping the makeup off her 511 00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:42.639 face. No, he didn't, because Kathy wiped her makeup off of her 512 00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:45.679 face when she got home from the hotel, and she got a shower, 513 00:36:45.719 --> 00:36:52.519 and she thought that her husband was sleeping on the couch, and I believe 514 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:54.920 she came in, she got a shower, she was getting ready for bed 515 00:36:55.159 --> 00:37:00.440 and he confronted her saying, or at least wiped her face, do you 516 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:01.320 know what I mean? And he could front her and said, so where 517 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:05.639 worried? And I what hotel were you at? Who were you meaning at 518 00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:08.599 that hotel? And she got angry and basically said, I don't owe you 519 00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:14.480 an explanation of anything. We're getting a divorce, and he snapped. Another 520 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.760 red flag is that there was evidence Kathy had been hit in the face and 521 00:37:16.800 --> 00:37:21.239 she had a laceration on the back of her head. Yet blood was only 522 00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:24.039 found on her undergarments and the inside of her clothing, but not the outside. 523 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:29.079 So this does suggest that she was not wearing this clothing at the time 524 00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.559 she was murdered, and the killer decided to redress her body after she was 525 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.440 dead. If Kathy was on clothed when she was killed, then this opens 526 00:37:37.519 --> 00:37:40.519 up the disturbing possibility that she was raped by her own husband before she was 527 00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:45.000 strangled. It was bad luck for Steve that he had undergone a vasectomy months 528 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:50.760 earlier, because otherwise the investigators likely would have assumed that the seaman found in 529 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:53.760 her vagina was the result of sex with her boyfriend. But since the other 530 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:58.519 guy never had a vasectomy. Steve had to provide a story about him and 531 00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:02.239 Kathy having consensual sex with each other before she left on her date, though 532 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:06.679 as far as I can tell, he did not share this until after the 533 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.800 autopsy report revealed there was no sperm in some of the seamen. Obviously, 534 00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:15.280 it seems very unlikely that a woman who was reportedly on the verge of divorcing 535 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:20.400 her husband would agree to have sex with him, but I will acknowledge that 536 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.440 not every couple who is in a fractured relationship will handle things the same way, 537 00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:28.639 as some might continue to have sex even if they are not getting along 538 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:32.079 on a personal level. But in this particular case, Kathy had just asked 539 00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:36.760 Eve for a separation and wanted him to move out of the house, and 540 00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:39.320 given that he had supposedly been sleeping on the couch, it sounds like they 541 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:44.440 had not been intimate with each other in quite some time. And I seriously 542 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:47.559 doubt that Kathy would agree to have sex with Steve right before she was planning 543 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:52.440 to meet another man for sex. No, I don't see that at all. 544 00:38:52.480 --> 00:38:54.119 I think Kathy was done with him. She was desperate for someone to 545 00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:58.079 watch the kids that night, and she assumed, well, whatever, he's 546 00:38:58.079 --> 00:38:59.920 just going to be sleeping on the couch. When I get home, I 547 00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:02.159 can run upstairs and get a shower and go to bed, and he'll be 548 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:06.440 gone in the morning and we can just I can keep doing whatever I want 549 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.199 and move forward with this divorce, and Steve had other plans. During his 550 00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:16.199 Unsolved Mysteries interview, James Fulton presented a theory about Kathy's death which sounds fairly 551 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:22.199 plausible. Kathy's friend Charlotte corroborated that she received a phone call at around two 552 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:24.760 thirty am, which was an immediate hang up, and she figured it was 553 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:30.480 probably Steve. If Steve learned that Kathy had been lying about seeing Charlotte that 554 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.400 night and then called the phone number for the Best Western hotel in Beaumont, 555 00:39:34.920 --> 00:39:37.159 he would have put two and two together and figured out that Kathy was seeing 556 00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:43.199 another man. But it's possible that Steve fell asleep before Kathy arrived home, 557 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:46.159 which is why she had time to remove her makeup, jewelry, socks, 558 00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:50.840 and some of her clothing to get ready for bed. However, once Steve 559 00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.400 woke up, he likedly confronted Kathy about where she'd been and this could have 560 00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.360 led to a heated confrontation in which he raped, beat and strangled her to 561 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:04.320 death. I'm not sure if Steve originally planned on killing Kathy that night or 562 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:07.519 if the whole thing was just a crime and passion, but he had to 563 00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:12.480 improvise quickly, which is why he cleaned and redressed Kathy's body and staged that 564 00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:16.119 they car accident. It's interesting how Steve refused to turn the lights on when 565 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:20.960 the police came to visit him at the house later that morning, which may 566 00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:23.280 have been because he did not yet have the opportunity to clean up all the 567 00:40:23.320 --> 00:40:29.199 incriminating evidence of foul play, such as blood on the carpet. Steve probably 568 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:31.519 figured he would have a lot more time to cover his tracks, but the 569 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:37.760 newspaper carrier discovered Kathy's car before daylight hit. Yeah, when he wouldn't turn 570 00:40:37.800 --> 00:40:40.519 the lights on, I feel like he knew there's a spot on the floor 571 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:45.559 that they cannot see. There could have been even a pilot clothes that he 572 00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.679 needed to watch, because remember the washing machines running a little bit later in 573 00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:52.559 the day. I believe he knew if I turned these lights on, there 574 00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:57.000 he's something that incriminates me. Maybe that cut on his nose he was hoping 575 00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.920 to hide as well, because remember they saw him with a cut on his 576 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:04.360 nose. They could have been caused by Kathy fighting packs, So he knew, 577 00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:08.559 don't turn those lights on and try to act as upset as possible when 578 00:41:08.599 --> 00:41:13.800 he found out how she had passed away. But unfortunately, too many things 579 00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:15.239 are writing into this case to say he knew all along because he's the one 580 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.639 who did it. And also the fact that later that morning he's using like 581 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.920 oscillating fans to clean the carpet and then throwing clothing in the laundry. It's 582 00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:25.719 like, yeah, I found out that my wife was killed in an accident, 583 00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:29.960 So now's a good time to catch up on the housework. Deep clean. 584 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:34.480 We're going to deep clean the house. Yeah, it's crazy. It's 585 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:37.880 been established that Steve phone Charlotte sometime that morning and told her Kathy had not 586 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.920 arrived home, but he kept changing his story about the exact time he phoned 587 00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:45.920 her. He originally said the call took place between five point thirty and six 588 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:50.519 am, and that the police showed up to inform him about what happened a 589 00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:54.239 short time later. However, Steve then started turning the clock back and claimed 590 00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:59.239 the call took place at earlier times, such as two thirty, three thirty, 591 00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:04.280 and four thirty. It's possible that Steve intentionally staged the phone call to 592 00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:08.000 Charlotte in order to come across as the concerned husband who had no idea where 593 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:13.199 his wife was. But if he made the call after the police already told 594 00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:17.039 him about Kathy's death, that would be pretty damning. It's unclear if phone 595 00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:21.559 records were checked, but I'm guessing not yet. I get the feeling that 596 00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:24.159 Steve may have decided to change the time he made the call because he was 597 00:42:24.199 --> 00:42:30.320 paranoid about this discrepancy being uncovered. Even the fact that he's changing it five 598 00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:35.480 different times when he's telling them stories. Two thirty and six am are two 599 00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.960 very very different things. He did call it two thirty, I believe, 600 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:42.360 and that's when he knew she was at that hotel and he's waiting for her 601 00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.280 to come home. And so I think he was on the truth that he 602 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.800 called it two thirty, But he also might have called it five thirty or 603 00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:52.159 six to say he was concerned, and then backtracked and says, oh my 604 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.280 gosh, they're going to know I called it too thirty, So I'll just 605 00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:59.440 say two thirty now and say that I was concerned about her, but no, 606 00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:02.320 he was trying to find out information and to really stalk her whereabouts so 607 00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:07.599 he could have a reason to explode when she got home. If you look 608 00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:10.320 at the timeline in all the known facts, and even discount a lot of 609 00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:15.199 the details which are under dispute, such as Steve doing laundry and cleaning the 610 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:20.760 carpet, the scenario presented by James Fulton makes complete sense. However, the 611 00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:24.199 big question is if there's enough evidence here to charge Steve with murder, bring 612 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:29.119 him to trial, and convince it jury to find him guilty beyond a reasonable 613 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.480 bout Well. Unfortunately, the case has been hampered by a number of mistakes 614 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:37.039 in the investigation, such as the Vider Police Department taking pictures of the crime 615 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:42.960 scene without any film in the camera. Needless to say, I'm not sure 616 00:43:43.320 --> 00:43:46.199 there have been many murder trials in which actual photos of murder scenes could not 617 00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:52.519 be admitted into evidence. It's pretty ridiculous that the Orange County District Attorney's office 618 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:57.400 would not grant the viter PD a search warrant for the Page residence until years 619 00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:00.000 after the crime took place. As you know, Oh, they were never 620 00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:05.039 going to find anything after all that time. I know, the Fulton family 621 00:44:05.079 --> 00:44:08.360 have accused the local authorities of orchestrating a cover up for Steve. But even 622 00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:13.880 though the police undoubtedly made a number of mistakes, they've always maintained that their 623 00:44:13.880 --> 00:44:19.440 investigation was hampered by the District Attorney's office. Indeed, whatever problems might have 624 00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.519 existed within the Bider Police Department during the nineteen nineties, it does seem like 625 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:28.559 the current police chief, Fraud Carroll, is passionate about solving this case. 626 00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:34.719 After Kelly Siegler and her Coal Justice investigative team submitted their new case against Steve 627 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:38.679 Page to Orange County District Attorney John Kimbro a few years ago, he still 628 00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:44.079 felt that the evidence was insufficient to charge him with murder. However, Siegler, 629 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:46.679 who obviously has a lot of evidence experienced with this sort of thing, 630 00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:52.280 has said this might be the strongest case that she's ever seen against the suspect, 631 00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:57.119 which has never been brought to trial. So Kimbro intentionally So is Kimbro 632 00:44:57.320 --> 00:45:02.599 intentionally stonewalling the investigation or is he just very reluctant to prosecute a case which 633 00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:07.199 he's not entirely certain he can win. It's hard to say, but it's 634 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.039 worth reiterating that Steve Page has already lost a wrongful death lawsuit in civil court, 635 00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:15.920 and there's already a fairly strong, circumstantial case against him. So it 636 00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:21.159 makes you wonder what new evidence will be required to provide the final push to 637 00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.679 charge him. Well, you got to remember too, they never searched their 638 00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:28.840 home in those days following the murder. They knew it was a murder, 639 00:45:29.239 --> 00:45:32.119 but they didn't have film in the camera at the car scene. But the 640 00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:37.280 crime scene was really in the house where he murdered her. I think that's 641 00:45:37.280 --> 00:45:40.360 what he was cleaning up the day that the family came over to greet and 642 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:45.159 comfort the rest of the family, So they didn't take pictures of the inside 643 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.280 of the house. They did no search of the inside of the house. 644 00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.119 And then they also didn't have any documentation of the car itself in those kind 645 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:58.079 of pieces of evidence that were documented as being concerning for the quote car crash. 646 00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:01.519 So it was a which is botched from the very beginning. I think 647 00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:07.159 that when you add the eyewitness who came forward years later. Maybe they're hoping 648 00:46:07.199 --> 00:46:09.719 that one other thing can come forward, maybe the friend would turn on him, 649 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:15.400 the guy who's the private investigator. But man, are they stonewalling? 650 00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:20.480 I don't know. I think once you try someone and you aren't quite sure 651 00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:22.880 you have enough evidence to prove ninety nine point nine nine nine percent that he's 652 00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:28.960 guilty, I could be really costing the family the justice they've been wanting. 653 00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:31.679 And if I had just waited, would I get more this case? It's 654 00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:36.639 hard to say, because looking back, you needed the more at the original 655 00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:39.800 crime scene and you just didn't get it. And what's also frustrating is that, 656 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:45.079 unlike other cold cases, you can't get a conviction with DNA here because 657 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:49.800 Steve's DNA is in Kathy, it matches the semen in her vagina. But 658 00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:52.679 he flat out said he had consensual sex with her, and even though that's 659 00:46:52.719 --> 00:46:57.880 probably not true, they can't exactly disprove that. So yeah, it's really 660 00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:00.800 frustrating when you have these cases where you know you can't use physical evidence to 661 00:47:00.800 --> 00:47:06.320 get a conviction, so you're hoping for something like an additional witness coming forward 662 00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.960 to finally be able to feel comfortable pressing charges, you know, and had 663 00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:13.920 they searched the house, what if they had found a journal where she's recording 664 00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:19.159 things like he discussed me he hasn't touched me intimately in six years. I 665 00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.159 you know, I'm so grateful to finally know what it feels like to be 666 00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:25.199 touched by another man, and blah blah blah. I would never want him 667 00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:28.960 to be my lover again. Like, there could have been so many things 668 00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:34.039 that they could have found to even disprove that if she was trying to document 669 00:47:34.079 --> 00:47:37.159 any of that, if they had been asking friends about their sexual relationship, 670 00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:43.199 And it's just really frustrating because, like you said, they didn't do what 671 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:46.400 was needed at the time, and you just simply can't go back and recreate 672 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:52.119 that evidence. I wonder if during the autopsy they checked under the nails for 673 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:57.920 skin cells or DNA, because we heard that he had a scratch on his 674 00:47:58.039 --> 00:48:01.840 nose, and that means there's a potential that there could have been DNA under 675 00:48:01.840 --> 00:48:06.719 her fingernails. And I think given the fact that there weren't scratches on the 676 00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:09.119 back in a place where you could say, okay, rough sex, maybe 677 00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:13.280 she scratched my back, but no, one's going to like scratch your face 678 00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:17.400 typically during rough sex. That would be really atypical, so it would be 679 00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:22.760 harder to explain that a way in a consensual manner. Yeah, I haven't 680 00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.599 heard anything about DNA being found on her fingernails, but it's also possible he 681 00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:30.400 never even check because this was a small town police department and this was nineteen 682 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:34.599 ninety one, when DNA profiling was still in its infancy, so it's possible 683 00:48:34.639 --> 00:48:38.239 they never even thought of that. All that being said, after serving eight 684 00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:44.599 terms in office, John Kimbro finally decided to retire as Orange County District Attorney 685 00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.920 just a few weeks before we recorded this episode, So maybe his replacement, 686 00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:53.639 Chrispin Walker, will feel differently about filing murder charges. Regardless of whether Steve 687 00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:59.400 is innocent or guilty of this crime, what's indisputable is that Kathy's death has 688 00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:01.719 caused a lot of pain and hurt for a lot of people, and I 689 00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:06.000 don't think anyone has suffered more than her daughter, Aaron, who has lost 690 00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:09.159 her mother, father, sister, and pretty much the entire side of her 691 00:49:09.199 --> 00:49:15.079 maternal family. I'm sure the release of Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri, 692 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:19.280 has been both a blessing and a curse for Kathy's brief family and friends. 693 00:49:20.039 --> 00:49:22.400 Even though it helped generate a lot of new publicity for this case, it 694 00:49:22.480 --> 00:49:27.400 must feel like it's all for nought if it doesn't lead to a resolution and 695 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:30.880 justice for Kathy. The way the investigation has been handled, you get the 696 00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:36.400 sense that it will take yet another person coming forward with key information before we 697 00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:40.800 finally see and arrest. Remember, Crime Stoppers of Southeast Texas is offering a 698 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:45.079 fifty thousand dollars reward, So if you happen to know anything about the unsolved 699 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:50.760 murder of Kathy Page, please contact their tip line at four oh nine eight 700 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:54.559 three three tips. That's four oh nine eight three three eight four seven seven. 701 00:49:55.000 --> 00:50:00.000 Jules Askedley any final thoughts on this case. This is one of those 702 00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:04.239 cases where I think, above many others we've talked about, there's not a 703 00:50:04.400 --> 00:50:12.760 single winner here. Every single person in this case has suffered tremendously beyond just 704 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.480 the loss of Kathy, which was enough to have to handle this on its 705 00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:22.360 face. But you have two families who are immediately divided, and you have 706 00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:28.320 children who are thrust into the middle of this investigation. To need to defend 707 00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:31.599 the only parent that they have left their father. As they get older, 708 00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:37.400 that trauma becomes so overwhelming one of them loses their life to addiction and possible 709 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:44.800 suicide. Aaron clearly is struggling with realization that she isn't sure what's true and 710 00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:51.800 what's not. That she has expresses a truthfulness in her mind of that she 711 00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:54.599 has a terrible side of the family with the Fultons, which I think is 712 00:50:55.199 --> 00:51:00.719 much fed to her to manipulate her away from them. That she also is 713 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.559 old enough to start to question that my dad didn't treat us right after my 714 00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:08.000 mother's death. What if he also didn't treat her right? What if some 715 00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:12.920 of the things he told me was a lie? And so she's really questioning 716 00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:16.000 the real world around her, like who can I trust? Can I even 717 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:21.800 trust my own recollection. I can't even trust my father, I can't trust 718 00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.079 my mother's whole side of the family. So I've completely lost a connection to 719 00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:30.440 her. And then you have the parents, who you know Mom passed away 720 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:34.320 without knowing what happened to her daughter or not seeing justice in that case. 721 00:51:34.880 --> 00:51:38.280 Dad's ninety and still fighting. Maybe that's why he lived so long, because 722 00:51:38.280 --> 00:51:43.280 he said I refuse to go anywhere until I see justice here. And he's 723 00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:46.559 ninety years old, still fighting. But it's just sad, and there is 724 00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:52.800 an empathy and a sadness for Steve's family too, who like the kids. 725 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:57.639 The last thing I can do is also lose my son. Right now, 726 00:51:58.159 --> 00:52:00.199 I'm and my brother and whoever else is related to him. Right I have 727 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:02.880 to believe that he's innocent and that he has nothing to do with this, 728 00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.800 and now I have to create a narrative of innocence around him and stake my 729 00:52:07.920 --> 00:52:13.760 life on that. So it's really sad for everyone. It's one of those 730 00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:16.880 cases that's maddening because if we talk about it, it's just like Casey Anthony 731 00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:20.440 or OJ Simpson. It's like, yeah, we know they did it, 732 00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.480 but can I prove that in a court of law. You see in those 733 00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.840 cases there was plenty of evidence and the jury said not guilty because their burden 734 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:32.039 of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. There's a lot of fear bringing this 735 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:36.320 case to trial. What if we get it wrong and we miss that one 736 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.679 piece of evidence that could have sent him to prison. So I just don't 737 00:52:39.719 --> 00:52:44.559 think they're going to go forward with it. It's really sad. I wish 738 00:52:44.559 --> 00:52:46.519 they could go back in time and collect the evidence they needed, because the 739 00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:51.000 story's very clear. It's just you have to prove it to a jury and 740 00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:55.199 not just tell them a really good story. I agree. I think moving 741 00:52:55.239 --> 00:53:00.039 forward, if he's still alive, Roger Howell would be a really good person 742 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:04.280 to lean on. I don't know if he's ever had any criminal charges or 743 00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:07.440 ever had any brushes with the law that would put him in a position that 744 00:53:08.079 --> 00:53:12.440 he would be more inclined to share this information, but I would think a 745 00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:15.159 lot of things in his life have changed. I don't know if him and 746 00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:20.199 Steve are still close, but if you were involved in the cover up or 747 00:53:20.239 --> 00:53:24.360 there was some kind of conspiracy between the two of you, his overall fear 748 00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:30.760 of jail time may supersede any sort of guilt that he may feel for playing 749 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.079 a part, even if it's just after the fact, in the cleanup or 750 00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:39.000 the cover up of Kathy's death, because I think that he is the key 751 00:53:39.119 --> 00:53:44.960 that he knows what happened here, and given that we don't have the forensic 752 00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.280 evidence that we're going to need, like Robin At addressed with the semen found 753 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:53.400 in Kathy's vagina, even though we know that it's stee that it is likely 754 00:53:53.480 --> 00:54:00.199 Steve's because of the vasectomy and you know the sperms not having heads, so 755 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:04.280 we know that, but we don't think that there's any other physical evidence like 756 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:07.840 the DNA mentioned Potentially, if it was under the fingernails and he had a 757 00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:12.679 scratch on his face, then that could be interesting evidence to now include, 758 00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:15.239 but it seems unlikely that we have that because we've heard nothing of it, 759 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:21.239 and it's just so sad. I really feel for Aaron specifically here. I 760 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:25.519 mean losing your sister, losing your mother, having your father basically dump you 761 00:54:25.599 --> 00:54:31.679 with family members and abandon you, and then having to live with either the 762 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:37.599 belief real or not whether these stories were just given to her by the Page 763 00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:42.639 family, the James Fulton was a very bad man that did very bad things 764 00:54:42.679 --> 00:54:46.639 to her mother, and that they don't care about her and Monica after her 765 00:54:46.679 --> 00:54:51.599 mother had died, which we don't know how much truth is there and how 766 00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:53.320 much has been fed to her by the family, And I think that is 767 00:54:53.360 --> 00:54:59.280 such a hard position to be in to not really know what of your memories 768 00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:02.920 are true and are false, because you've had these adults around you who are 769 00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:07.880 supposed to be responsible in giving you accurate information, but you don't know how 770 00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:12.840 many of them are manipulating the truth to serve their own narratives. So my 771 00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:17.039 heart really breaks for Aaron here. Yeah, I think it's safe to say 772 00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:21.440 that this is one of the least mysterious cases that we covered on The Pathwent 773 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:25.480 Chile because we know what happened. I really cannot cream up any possible scenario 774 00:55:25.519 --> 00:55:30.800 that does not involve Steve Page killing Caffy Page. I remember watching it at 775 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:34.199 Unsolved Mysteries back in the day and it kind of faded from the spotlight for 776 00:55:34.199 --> 00:55:38.119 a while. But then three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri came out and even 777 00:55:38.119 --> 00:55:43.239 though it was kind of unintentional where we talked about how Martin McDonough wasn't even 778 00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.159 certain that this was the case that inspired him to write this movie, but 779 00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:51.039 it seems very likely that it is, and people started referring to this as 780 00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:53.679 the Billboards case, and that's why it was featured on an episode of Cold 781 00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:58.960 Justice, and that's why there was another push to submit evidence to the DA 782 00:55:59.280 --> 00:56:02.440 to file murder charges. But it still hasn't happened yet. We've now reached 783 00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:07.480 like the thirty three year mark, and this case is still officially unsolved, 784 00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:10.400 and it's very frustrating. But like we talked about, the person we feel 785 00:56:10.440 --> 00:56:15.519 the most sorry for is Aaron because she not only has lost her mother and 786 00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:19.599 and become a strange from her father and lost her sister, but she is 787 00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:23.840 now estranged from her maternal side of the family for things that we're not entirely 788 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:28.880 sure if they're true, if James Fulton and the rest of the family have 789 00:56:29.000 --> 00:56:30.960 done some bad things, or if this has all been fed to her by 790 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:36.360 her father's side of the family. And I mean, regardless of whether or 791 00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:39.199 not the Fultons did anything bad, they have done a great job of keeping 792 00:56:39.239 --> 00:56:44.360 this case in the spotlight and putting up these billboards and ensuring that Kathy is 793 00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:47.559 not forgotten. And who knows, Like Jules just talked about, maybe the 794 00:56:47.639 --> 00:56:52.880 key will be this other guy, Roger, who could have helped Steve cover 795 00:56:52.960 --> 00:56:55.239 out the murder. Maybe one of these days he'll develop a conscience and come 796 00:56:55.320 --> 00:57:00.800 forward and reveal what actually happened here, because it's going to be really difficult 797 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:06.159 to find that one additional piece of evidence that will finally make them feel comfortable 798 00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:09.159 filing charges. But then again, we just mentioned that there is a new 799 00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:14.760 younger district attorney who's just been appointed to this position, and maybe she'll feel 800 00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:17.519 differently. Maybe she'll decide to arrest Eve and take them to trial with the 801 00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:22.440 evidence they had. Only only time will tell, and hopefully one of these 802 00:57:22.519 --> 00:57:24.960 days we'll be able to do an update episode and mention that this case is 803 00:57:25.320 --> 00:57:30.119 finally solved. Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit about 804 00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:34.119 the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around 805 00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:38.039 for three years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like early ad 806 00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:43.599 free episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank you cards to 807 00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:46.239 anyone who signs up with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars 808 00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:52.880 tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I talk about 809 00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:55.719 cases which are not featured on the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're 810 00:57:55.760 --> 00:58:00.679 exclusive to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier two you're free the 811 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:05.440 ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer is a audio commentary track 812 00:58:05.480 --> 00:58:09.320 over classic episodes of unsolved mysteries, where you can download an audio file and 813 00:58:09.400 --> 00:58:15.039 then boot up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube and play 814 00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:19.960 it with my audio commentary playing in the background, where I just provide trivia 815 00:58:20.000 --> 00:58:23.519 and factoids about the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very 816 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:29.119 first episode that I did a commentary track over was the episode featuring this case. 817 00:58:29.159 --> 00:58:31.639 So if you want to download a commentary track in which I make more 818 00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:36.800 smart ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join Tier three. 819 00:58:37.000 --> 00:58:38.639 So I want to let you know a little bit about the Jeweles and Nashty 820 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:44.119 patreons. So there's early ad free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've 821 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:46.440 got our Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so 822 00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:50.639 they're not very mini, but they're just too short to turn into a series, 823 00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:53.079 and we're really enjoying doing those, so we hope you'll check out those 824 00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:57.639 patreons. We'll link them in the show notes. So I want to thank 825 00:58:57.679 --> 00:59:00.440 you all for listening, and any chance you have to share r us on 826 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:04.400 social media with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated. You 827 00:59:04.400 --> 00:59:07.320 can email us at The Pathwentchili at gmail dot com. You can reach us 828 00:59:07.360 --> 00:59:10.960 on Twitter at the pathwink. So until next time, be sure to bundle 829 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.199 up, because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing. Music by 830 00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.880 Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy