WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:08.800 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:13.919 podcasts, just go to IFAH podcast network dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof 3 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:18.160 Screenwriting Podcast, Episode number two ninety four. The secret of becoming a good 4 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:24.519 screenwriter is to write, write, and keep on writing. Ken McLean broadcasting 5 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:28.399 from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on 6 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:33.479 that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and 7 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:38.280 business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's 8 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:44.200 your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof 9 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:48.200 Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show 10 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:54.240 is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, 11 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:59.799 Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are in the goal 12 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:03.719 of the project you are, so we actually break it down by three categories 13 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.680 micro budget, indie film, market, and studio film. There's no reason 14 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:11.480 to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie 15 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:14.959 is going to be done for one hundred thousand dollars and we wanted to focus 16 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:19.040 on that. At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with Marvel Studios, 17 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:23.280 CIA, WM, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, Warner 18 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:26.439 Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your 19 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:33.719 screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to cover my 20 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:40.879 Screenplay dot com. Enjoy today's episode with guest host Jason Buff. On today's 21 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.959 episode, I'm going to be talking with Pilar Alessandra about screenwriting. I just 22 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:49.359 read her book, The Coffee Break Screenwriter, and I mean it's it's an 23 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.599 amazing book. It's got all kinds of activities you can do to kind of 24 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.959 jump start your creativity and start really figuring out what your screenplay is about and 25 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:00.319 what the characters are, you know, what their motivations are, what they 26 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.000 want in the story. I really enjoyed it, and it's got a lot 27 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.879 of stuff that I haven't seen another sco You know, there's a million screenwriting 28 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.960 books and I try to read as many as I can, and this one 29 00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:10.680 had a lot of great new stuff in it, so I highly recommend it. 30 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.080 Here's my interview with the amazing Pilar Alessandra, Like a typical work week 31 00:02:15.159 --> 00:02:17.719 for you? Like what I mean? You do you have like a pile 32 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.879 of screenplays that you are going through? Are you talking with screenwriters on the 33 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.319 phone? What's kind of your world like there? My world is a little 34 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.599 bit busy. I wouldn't recommend it to everybody unless you're you want to commit 35 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:39.919 to workaholism. I consult on two scripts a day and I run not read 36 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:46.400 Funny Money today. I run four different private writers groups. This is these 37 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.039 are things I actually don't advertise. They're made up of writers that I've picked 38 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:57.120 out of clients that I think that that are really at a certain level with 39 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.159 their writing and are also good in a room. So I run those private 40 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:07.039 writing groups four times a week. And then I also have six week classes 41 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.319 that I teach, currently teaching one on Saturdays twelve thirty to three thirty, 42 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:15.159 and that's those tend to be first draft classes. And then I also do 43 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:21.680 rewrite weekends and the occasional specialty class. I'm very very excited because I'm also 44 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:27.199 teaching TV class about every two months now and it's usually a one day intensive 45 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.120 and then when I'm not doing that, I'm really lucky I get to travel 46 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:37.439 and teaching other countries, and recently just got back from South Africa, which 47 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:43.120 was amazing. I got to spend five days with an animation company called Triggerfish 48 00:03:43.159 --> 00:03:46.919 and thirty five writers from all over Africa, So that was really cool. 49 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:51.919 So is that ever intimidating to you? I mean, do you you kind 50 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:55.800 of pinch yourself and say, you know, wow, Yeah. Every time 51 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:59.800 I'm invited somewhere, I just think that they've just sent the email to the 52 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.280 person, you know, imposter syndrome. Yeah, We've kind of go through 53 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.479 that for a little bit, like well you know this and you know, 54 00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:13.159 and they're like, no, no you So so yeah, I'm very very 55 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.959 lucky and it's really cool. So so yeah, I work really hard, 56 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:21.120 but it's a it's a great job. So working with creative people, do 57 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:26.360 you is there something that they have in common that they're looking for that they 58 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:30.079 need in terms of they have a certain way of thinking, they have a 59 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.680 certain way of wanting to create and want to write, but they just need 60 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:39.000 somebody to come in and organize their thought or something like that. I think 61 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:44.720 I think everybody wants to know are they expressing their intention? They had this 62 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.560 idea in their head, or they had this person in their mind, or 63 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.759 they had this amazing scene. Is it there? I think one of the 64 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:55.279 reasons I called this on the page my business was because it really all came 65 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.279 down to was it there? Was it on the page? It can it 66 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:01.399 can live in your mind. You can help a director brings it out or 67 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:05.040 an actor, but if it's not on the page, then it's just not 68 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:09.680 working. So that's what everybody wants to know. Am I seeing it? 69 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.600 Is it there? Will audiences see it? And if it's not there, 70 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.759 then we talk about what's the best way to express that so that they can 71 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:20.199 get their intention out. One of the things that I've had to learn over 72 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:25.160 the years was, Okay, where is my talent? What am I good 73 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.879 at? What can I you know, I can see when I write, 74 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.399 I kind of see scenes. I see it, And it's almost a way 75 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:32.519 of like taking dictation, putting it on the page and saying, Okay, 76 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:35.920 I've got a movie. Now how do I take that movie and then structure 77 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:41.399 it right and put it right so that what I'm actually seeing is what I'm 78 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:44.240 conveying to people, you know, right? And then there's the tricky part 79 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.560 because if what you're seeing is sort of a list of things. I see 80 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.040 things. I see that, I see the other thing. That can get 81 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:57.199 monotonous and it can feel cutible. But if you phrase it in a way, 82 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.839 you know, I see it and it looks like this thing. You 83 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.600 know, if you're using assembly that works for you or a metaphor. I 84 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:10.720 mean, people don't don't appreciate. I think how how much screenwriters are writers. 85 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:15.399 They have to find the right phrase in order to convey visually what's in 86 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.759 their head because they're A list of things doesn't work. It has to be 87 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:26.680 a sometimes just a concise sentence. So so word choices is everything. Page 88 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.160 work. It seems like a lot of you can take a lot of liberties 89 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.279 with certain things when it comes to kind of making your vision come to life. 90 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.319 And I was wondering what you thought about that in terms of just do 91 00:06:36.360 --> 00:06:40.680 you find that there's a lot of as long as they're getting their vision through 92 00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:45.399 that they can kind of play with that. Yes, if it's readable, 93 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:50.600 it's working. If it doesn't make the readers stop to notice the format or 94 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:56.240 look at the page number, it's working. People are so hung up on 95 00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.680 you know it's there. Am I doing the correct format. But I really 96 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.680 believe over the years it has loosened up because at the stage that you're submitting 97 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:10.199 your script, it's for people to grasp on to the story and characters and 98 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.439 then start pushing it upwards. So if that's not coming through, um, 99 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:17.560 if they're not completely involved, it's not going to go anywhere. They're not 100 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:23.759 going to pass on it because you did some kind of incorrect formatting. They're 101 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:29.120 going to pass at their board. So um, yeah, even that's my 102 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:34.839 call warning slow. Everybody will just assume you use some bad language there. 103 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:41.439 So that'd be really funny if it just kept okay, okay, let's try 104 00:07:41.480 --> 00:07:46.399 to let's you know, keep it on the table here. Don't work blue. 105 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:51.199 Um. Even David Trottier, Um, he wrote the Screenwriter's Bible, 106 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:56.839 and he's known lovingly as doctor format. You know, he's he's over the 107 00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.040 years said as much. You know, if it's worked on the page, 108 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:05.519 if it's you know, the things, the objects you want noticed or being 109 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.600 noticed, and the visuals are coming through, and the dialogue is clear, 110 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:13.360 and you're working down the page with a certain pace, it's working. One 111 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:18.040 of the biggest things that I remember was when I was in my younger years. 112 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:20.360 I read it read, you know, Shane Black screenplay for Lethal Weapon, 113 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.399 which is kind of like what everybody has to read when they're first starting 114 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:26.920 out, and it just blew me away, like, you know, even 115 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:28.160 noting parts of it where it was like, you know, he was in 116 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.080 the kind of house that I would buy if I sold this screenplay, and 117 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.879 like all these little things that he put in just to kind of keep people 118 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.399 interested, And it just seems like in the good screenplays that I've read, 119 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.360 it's all about just keeping people's attention, you know, building that tension, 120 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.480 making sure that every every scene has a reason to be there and everything is 121 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.919 pulling you in and just affecting you, versus some of the more amateurist things 122 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:56.240 that I used to read, which was you would just have people talking and 123 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.679 dialogue that kind of went nowhere, and people would be creating a world, 124 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:05.679 but they wouldn't necessarily be creating a story. No. I totally agree with 125 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:09.720 you, Um, And you know, fortunately, I think writers have there's 126 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:15.559 so much more out there now for them as far as resources go, that 127 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.120 they know now that you know, just hanging it on dialogue is not the 128 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:26.279 way to go. Um. They're the scripts that I've read over the years 129 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:30.559 have gotten better and better and better. Um. And the bad news is 130 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:37.840 that means your competition is getting is also getting better. UM. So now 131 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.519 when people sort of when it's not screen when when people so now, when 132 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:48.600 it's not working page wise, it's not so much because people are um hanging 133 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.120 it on amateur. Um sorry, I'm getting a little sun that. So 134 00:09:54.240 --> 00:09:58.639 it's not that people are getting amateur in their writing. It's that, um 135 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:03.360 they sometimes they're just it's actually two full of bells and whistles. Now we'll 136 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:11.279 be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the 137 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:15.799 show. Now it's like, I'm not going to tell you the story. 138 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.399 I'm gonna go to a really cool flash forward. Now I'm going to go 139 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.639 back in time, and now I'm gonna go from somebody else's point of view. 140 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:26.759 Well, I switched genres. I'm so clever. And so when that 141 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.960 starts happening, that's sometimes what I see is screwing things up, not because 142 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.879 you shouldn't be inventive, because you should, but because they're throwing all the 143 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:41.600 cool spaghetti against the wall and it just feels like spaghetti against the wall kind 144 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.840 of the Michael Bay version of a screenplay. There. I think, what 145 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.720 Michael Bay does, you know, he commits to I think people don't know 146 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.080 what they want. Like if they if you know, if they're writing a 147 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.039 Michael Bay movie, fine, commit to it. But if you're writing a 148 00:10:56.080 --> 00:11:01.240 Michael Bay movie, but it's half that and it's half Tarantino, you know, 149 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.240 and it's also a super indie at the same time, it's like, 150 00:11:05.240 --> 00:11:07.559 okay, make up your mind. It's that kind of spaghetti method that could 151 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.360 be a problem. Yeah. Well, I remember when when I was in 152 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:16.120 film school, Tarantino was Tarantino had really just come out when I think pulp 153 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.720 fiction was out and Reservoir Dogs came out. I think when I was a 154 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.759 sophomore, and it was funny because, you know, I was taking a 155 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:28.000 screenwriting class and every single person in that class started writing Quentin Tarantino screenplays, 156 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.399 you know, and they had the dialogue between two guys that was kind of 157 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.240 like didn't really have anything to do with anything, and there was something kind 158 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:37.440 of you know, in the background that you were supposed to They just kind 159 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.399 of missed the point of that and just went for the funny dialogue versus it's 160 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:45.960 funny dialogue because you know something bad is going to happen. It builds that 161 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:48.000 tension, you know, the kind of hitchcock way of showing you something bad's 162 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:52.440 going to happen and then having people do stuff you know they would just forget 163 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:56.399 about that part. Yeah, you've totally just nailed why that scene works, 164 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:58.879 which is it gets our defenses down. You think, wow, these are 165 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:07.159 two guys who were just talking about just guy fun stuff. And then when 166 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.559 you see the blow of the scene, which is you know they're on their 167 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:15.120 way to kill a room full of people. Um, that is what that 168 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:18.120 scene is about. That's why it has to be there. And you're right 169 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.639 after that. People wrote a million copies and I read them all because I 170 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:28.360 was videos at the time, and they didn't have any reason for being there. 171 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.600 They were just clever and uh and you know, cleverness without context, 172 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:39.440 without a connecting to anything. Um. You know, it's a cute scene, 173 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:45.799 but it feels it kind of wrecks the screenplay. It feels out of 174 00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:48.600 place. Now I want to I want to step back a little bit and 175 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:54.440 talk about your time at Ambling and working with Amblin and DreamWorks and that that 176 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.440 period and so if we can just go back in time a little bit back 177 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.039 intent Oh my goodness, Well, I can't let it go because I'm a 178 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.200 huge Spielberg and Zamecha's fan. You know. I first took on the job 179 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:09.279 because it was really cool job. I was like, oh, wow, 180 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.480 this would be great. You know, I can I can work from home, 181 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.759 and I can do with the other things I was interested in and hang 182 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.480 out with my friends. But my work workaholism. You know. Soon, 183 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.600 you know, soon got in my way where UM. I was reading tons 184 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:31.399 of scripts for them. UM. When I first started, it was the 185 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:39.039 heyday of amblin UM. Jurassic Park had just hit UM Schindler's list, and 186 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.679 you know, everybody was feeling really good about the content and it was a 187 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.440 real or sort of happy, go lucky place, if I remember right. 188 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.919 I was in my in my twey, you know, like you could show 189 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:52.519 up and on Friday people were, you know, having a beer and you 190 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:58.200 know it felt like yeah, and you know, you'd go in every day 191 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:03.080 in the place, UM looked a lot like the Flintstone Compound to me. 192 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.320 You know, I had these cute little hutches and yeah, it was it 193 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:11.200 was. It was pretty amazing. I think I remember seeing that in like 194 00:14:11.240 --> 00:14:16.399 a Barbara Walter special or something, because he was they had all the Jurassic 195 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:20.000 Park stuff around in dinosaurs. Yes, and it was it was such a 196 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.480 cool place to be working in the twenties. You know. I was just 197 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.919 like, wow, this is this is awesome. And I was definitely learning 198 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:31.320 on the job. Um, you know, I made some screw ups, 199 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:37.080 but I also had you know, a couple of creative executives who really thought 200 00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:41.360 I knew story and um, you know it would would you know, give 201 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:48.480 me some of their more trusted work and over there, once you were trusted 202 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.000 and we're working your your butt off, you know, you'd also start doing 203 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.919 notes on existing projects. Um. So that was interesting for me to as 204 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:01.759 a reader, what you're usually doing is going yes or no. As somebody's 205 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.759 doing notes, you're saying, well, of course, because it's a project, 206 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:09.320 and this is what you can do about it, this is how you 207 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:11.120 can make it better, which is very much the kind of work that I 208 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:18.159 do now. And when it became DreamWorks, you know, I got to 209 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.320 be senior story analysts, one of a couple of senior story analysts, which 210 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:28.600 really just meant work harder. And then when Bob Zemeckis did have a deal 211 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:31.360 with dream Works and he was on the lot for a while there, I 212 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:37.840 was sort of reading a sort of go between between both companies. It was 213 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:41.600 interesting, just tons and tons and tons of content that was coming my way, 214 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:48.759 and I was really getting I think, pretty good at homing in on 215 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:56.799 what made a script exciting and where it might not work for the executives I 216 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:00.879 was working for. And that was what led me to create a bunch of 217 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:07.720 writing tools that I used in classes and became the root of my book. 218 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.960 It was a great learning experience. Where were most of the screenplays coming from? 219 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:18.440 Were they just people that were submitting screenplays or were they now it was 220 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.399 all the big agencies of the time, c AA, I, CEM, 221 00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:30.799 William Morris, uh Apau, just just the you know, the big ones, 222 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:38.120 which I can't always say, in my opinion from from reading so many 223 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:44.799 scripts of the years, is necessarily always a good thing because since you know, 224 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.879 since that work and now that I've been on my own for so many 225 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:52.879 years and I've read so many writers who aren't represented or who represented by smaller 226 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.840 agencies, I have to say I think sometimes the studios are missing out because 227 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.680 there are some wonderful work out there that that isn't wrapped by a big, 228 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:08.759 shiny agency and uh and and you know it, that's where a lot of 229 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:15.559 unique voices are. Um So, you know I've read some I would say, 230 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.680 over the years, even better stuff than I read back. Then, 231 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:22.359 do you think it's important for writers to try to get an agent so that 232 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.799 they can get into that world? Yeah? Unfortunately it still is because you 233 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:32.799 still need somebody who can champion your work and has the connections that can that 234 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:36.759 can reach out for you. Um So, yes, you still want to 235 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:41.319 try very very hard to get an agent or these days a manager, because 236 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:47.400 a manager manages your entire career and may understand that you have more than just 237 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:51.440 one sellable project, that maybe you have something that would be good as a 238 00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:55.640 writing sample to get you work or to staff you up, or maybe you 239 00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.440 have an incredible play that needs to get out there, or a web series. 240 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.599 So that what a manager does is tries to get you out on all 241 00:18:02.680 --> 00:18:06.640 kinds of levels an agent and turns around it tries to sell a script. 242 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.880 Okay, Now, when you were reading these screenplays, would you was there 243 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.480 any is there any sort of moment when you would kind of know that it 244 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:21.319 wasn't a good screenplay. I mean, is there a typical pattern that you 245 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:25.000 would see in terms of, you know, a screenplay arrives, you start 246 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.920 reading it, and then you start seeing maybe like red flags. Well, 247 00:18:27.960 --> 00:18:32.359 you know, there's something that happens in the second act, and it happened 248 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.279 then, and it happens now. Where I'll read something it has a really 249 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.119 strong first act, it has a great concept, but I kind of call 250 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:42.039 it spinning its wheels in the second act, it doesn't really know what to 251 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:47.720 do with that concept, and it starts playing one trick over and over again, 252 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.279 and you start going, Okay, I've been here before. Can we 253 00:18:51.319 --> 00:18:52.960 get can we get out of here? You know, can we get out 254 00:18:53.000 --> 00:19:00.599 of this mud? And know that it's just spinning its wheels and it just 255 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:06.079 sort of fails to ever sort of cleverly get out of there. Then usually 256 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:11.440 that's that's that is a problem that I see. Sometimes the problem is actually 257 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.400 the third act where everything has been sort of interesting and fun and games, 258 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:18.920 and you know, it's trucking along in the second act, but then there's 259 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:26.960 no clever There isn't a clever resolution there's just sort of a cheating resolution, 260 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.200 you know, Oh, they get the treasure, they get the girl, 261 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:33.799 they live happily ever after, but there wasn't an interesting way of getting that 262 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.559 treasure or the girl or living happily or after, and the writers just hoping 263 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.759 that the audience will be okay with that. And I don't think audiences like 264 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:45.200 to be cheated out of a third act, so so that could be a 265 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:48.680 problem as well. It seems like a lot of times screenwriters will keep setting 266 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:52.640 up things and setting up things and making things like, oh, well, 267 00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:56.240 I'm going to throw something in that's going to make you it'll pull you into 268 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:59.200 the story and make you more interested, but it's not paid off at the 269 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.720 end. There's nothing that it really leads to. We'll be right back after 270 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:11.039 a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. You're absolutely 271 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:15.599 right, I think too. That's sort of the secret to coming up with 272 00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:19.720 a clever ending is mining whatever you created in the first half. And so 273 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.720 writers get stuck because they think that they have to come up with something completely 274 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.119 out of thin air, and it's like, no, just look look behind 275 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:33.319 you, what did you invent along the way The smallest thing could be an 276 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.480 incredible payoff. And I think when we see thrillers that work for us, 277 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:41.640 or even romantic comedies that work for us, they're often pulling from something that 278 00:20:41.680 --> 00:20:45.720 we didn't expect, but it was there. It was there, it was 279 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.640 right in front of our nose, and then they used that to their advantage 280 00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.759 in the resolution. And you know, that's what I teach in class, 281 00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:59.839 and I find that, you know, I'm constantly surprised when somebody does do 282 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.279 it well in a great script, I'm like, ah, that was a 283 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.960 great payoff. And in when I was working to studios that would get passed 284 00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:11.920 upwards, and now that I'm not, it's I do see those scripts move 285 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:15.440 on to success. Now. One of the things that full disclosure is that 286 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.839 you know, I'm I've been working on a screenplay for the last two months, 287 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.200 and I got your book in order to talk to you about it, 288 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:26.319 you know, and I actually, when once I started reading it, it 289 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.440 kind of blew me away because it's exactly the kind of thing that I need 290 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.759 because I'm a very disorganized, all over the place kind of person. And 291 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:41.119 I absolutely love the concept of just being able to have somebody guide you through 292 00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:45.279 and say okay, let's focus on what's the log line, what's the idea, 293 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.880 what's this and what you know? Talking about the third act. One 294 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:53.440 of the things that completely made the screenplay about a hundred times better was the 295 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:59.519 concept of working backwards from the third act. And it was just like, 296 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.480 it was so great. Yeah, in TV writing, and you know, 297 00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:07.680 over the years my work has changed from Jeff Green just dealing with Green writers, 298 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.400 I would say half and half of it is it's TV And that particular 299 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:18.079 exercise works really well for TV writers too, because if you're plotting out TV, 300 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.960 your act breaks are everything, and when you're figuring out your TV show, 301 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.279 you need to think about act break backwards. So let's say you have 302 00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.880 five acts. If you ask what is it? You know, what's my 303 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.599 act break going to be? And then do that kind of work of well 304 00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:38.000 how did I get there? That will help you figure out how to tell 305 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:45.160 your story. So I'm very glad that worked for you, because I do 306 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.920 think that it is something that can help people in outlining, especially if they're 307 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.759 not outlined ers. How long do you think people should be outlining before they 308 00:22:55.079 --> 00:22:57.240 actually jump in. I mean, one of the things that I have found 309 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:02.000 for myself is I'll go through and I'll try to get everything together, but 310 00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.240 I'll still have a lot of scenes that I haven't worked out. And then 311 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:08.519 once I start writing, it almost becomes like this improvisation, you know, 312 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.200 And I want to make sure that I have the tracks laid out and I 313 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.039 can kind of stay there, but I kind of go into these wild ideas. 314 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:18.640 All of a sudden, I'll invent a character over here and I'll have 315 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.400 this happen over there, and it's like, oh wait a second, I 316 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:22.880 gotta get back. You know, I'm going off a little bit. But 317 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.599 it's also good, I think, to have that first draft out there so 318 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.000 you can just start generating all those ideas. You know. I think what 319 00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:36.759 you said is perfect. I am not a believer in twenty five page outlines. 320 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.359 I think all you've done then is spend time on a twenty five page 321 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:44.160 outline where you could have been writing your screenplay. So in classes and in 322 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.759 the book, it's very much what you just said. I provide a blueprint 323 00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:56.400 so that you can see big picture with your screenplay or with your TV pilot. 324 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:03.880 And then as you're right, I think you're right. Sometimes the characters 325 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:07.759 go a place you didn't expect. Now, if they're starting to go in 326 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:11.119 a place that could completely modify that outline and you like it, go back 327 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.000 into the blueprint, adjust it a little bit so that you can see what 328 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:19.319 that butterfly effect is going to be, and then Okay, you've got a 329 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:23.880 new blueprint to work with and go from there. But your outlines should be 330 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:29.839 something that is changeable, because I agree your writing is going to change that 331 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:34.000 story as you go. You sometimes you can never really know until you're actually 332 00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:37.319 writing it. Do you find the people when they're writing their first draft to 333 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.160 say, oh, wait, wait, wait, I had an idea, 334 00:24:41.480 --> 00:24:45.559 and they want to go back and start changing things. But going backwards thing 335 00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:48.000 it can be a problem. It's not so much that they usually go back 336 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:52.079 and say, oh, I had an idea. It's usually that they want 337 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:55.920 to make whatever they did just perfect before they move on. And what ends 338 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:00.640 up happening are those perfect first acts that we talked about and those god, 339 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:08.880 I'm so tired third act. So if you if you have an idea and 340 00:25:08.920 --> 00:25:11.680 you're like, oh, I want to change the first act because the idea 341 00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:17.359 now is is the better one to help you move forward by all means to 342 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:21.119 do it? Just don't spend a lot of time rewriting all the stuff around 343 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:25.480 it. Just change that idea so that you can see now how it's going 344 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:30.160 to sort of retrigger the second act. That's the mistake that I made for 345 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.640 a very I ended up rewriting a screenplay for almost a year and a half 346 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.440 that I would go in and I would watch a movie and I would be 347 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:38.960 like, Oh, I really liked the tension in this scene. I kind 348 00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.160 of like what's going on here? And I would be like, maybe I 349 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:45.200 can use that, and I would go back and start changing the screenplay around 350 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.680 a little bit, and it just became this gigantic mess. And so now 351 00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:51.960 that I'm when I write now, it's more pay a lot more tension to 352 00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.640 the outlining process and making sure that I don't get into it and say, 353 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:57.359 oh, I want to change things. You know halfway through, right, 354 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:00.720 you got to get to the end. My classes, it's all about in 355 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:03.680 the first draft. Class, it's all about you got to move forward and 356 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.000 just finish this. We can go back and make it pretty later, can 357 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.359 go back and nuance it later. But it doesn't matter. If you're the 358 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:14.400 most beautiful writer in the world, if you never have anything done. Now 359 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:19.000 in your classes, do you find that there are certain different approaches to screenwriting 360 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.240 in terms of personalities? Yeah, I would say if I've got thirty students, 361 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.240 there's thirty different ways in and there should be. There should be. 362 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:30.160 You know, everybody's got to have their own style and their own stamp. 363 00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:37.960 So that's why again it's important to loosely outline and get hung up on saying 364 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.680 to people certain plot points have to be at certain pages, I believe, 365 00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:48.400 because they don't have to be. Your story should be unique in its telling, 366 00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:55.319 not only in its subject matter. So we can talk about patterns that 367 00:26:55.359 --> 00:27:00.160 have been in successful movies and TV shows. But then once you know that, 368 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.920 once you feel confident in your outline, you should just go and see 369 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:11.039 what happens. So yeah, there's a million ways to tell the story, 370 00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:17.720 fortunately, and that's what keeps keeps us watching movies and TV because we just 371 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:19.279 never know what the next approach is going to be. Do you find that 372 00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:23.799 some people are more into the structure side of it and then other people are 373 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:29.480 just more more like me that it's just like more creative and not really like 374 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:33.839 I mean, I remember I had a conversation with Corey Mandel killed intuitive versus 375 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.759 conceptual. Yeah, yeah, that's what I was talking about. Yeah, 376 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:40.599 I love that. I love that approach that he has. And you know, 377 00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:42.839 you can you can say the dummy version of it, which I'll say, 378 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.640 which would be like inside out or outside in, you know, And 379 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:51.960 there are the conceptual people. Um, those are the outside in people, 380 00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:56.000 the people who see big picture and see the outline and then have a hard 381 00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:00.599 time sometimes um, finding the see and they have to work at the dialogue 382 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:04.559 and they have to really work at their craft. And then they're the people 383 00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:07.839 who are as he calls with the intuitive people I call at the inside out 384 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:17.880 people who Corey's way smarter than I. The people who love their dialogue, 385 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:21.640 know their scenes, but have a hard time seeing the big picture and certain 386 00:28:21.680 --> 00:28:26.160 times can get lost in the minutia and in my classes. I like to 387 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.200 think that we do both at one time. I'll start everybody big picture, 388 00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:36.039 but as we are fleshing out the big picture, the craft issues are coming 389 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:38.400 in and we're dealing with them as we go, so that you're sort of 390 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:47.799 having to flip between both minds and you're not abandoning one over the other, 391 00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:52.240 but you really do have to get strong at both, and I think that's 392 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.440 why the experienced writers over time have done that. It's I always think of 393 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.920 it like, you know, somebody who's a right hand ended person having to 394 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:03.000 sit there and try to write with their left hand for you know, a 395 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:07.599 couple of days to start strengthening that up. It doesn't have to be as 396 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.480 difficult as that it could be. Can your right hand do two things at 397 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:18.160 one time? Can you multitask? You know, and anybody who has texted 398 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:26.680 somebody while they're writing an email and posting Facebook, you're doing three things at 399 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.920 one time. Well, you can probably look big picture at your script and 400 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:38.440 right from within without having to completely go to your left hand, you know 401 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.359 what I mean. It doesn't have to be as foreign as that. Now, 402 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.799 can we talk a little bit. I know you talk a lot about 403 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.799 log lines, and I'm sure that you're probably a little tired of it. 404 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.680 Do you mind explaining the importance of having a long log line and how that 405 00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:57.640 guides you as a writer. No screenwriting teacher is ever tired of talking about 406 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.559 God of our log lines. We'll be right back after a word from our 407 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:14.079 sponsor, and now back to the show. I think the reason that everybody 408 00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:18.160 so hung up on them is they serve a purpose for the writer and they 409 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:22.079 serve a purpose for the listener. For the writer, knowing what your hook 410 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.359 is and being able to articulate that in one line means that you always have 411 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.960 a thesis statement you can go back to whenever you're lost in your writing process, 412 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:33.960 so you can go, oh, my god, where I am? 413 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.559 I look at your log line and say, oh, that's what I wanted, 414 00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.839 That's what my intention was. So that's why it's important for the writer. 415 00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:44.319 For the listener, it's important because it's a mini pitch. We get 416 00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.880 and we get an idea right away of the kind of movie or TV show 417 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:53.799 you're going for and what's special about it? What's special in the what's a 418 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:59.480 special idea? Not what's special fanatically, although that should bubble through, but 419 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:04.559 what's that cool idea that we haven't thought about before we want to explore more. 420 00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.680 And that's what happens in a log line. But that's why it's important. 421 00:31:08.799 --> 00:31:12.680 What is the key do you think to creating? Like, if you're 422 00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:17.279 a little bit lost, are there some ways that you can create your log 423 00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.559 line or figure it out? Because a lot of people will be will write 424 00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:23.640 screenplays and they're in the middle of the story, and what you know, 425 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.119 one of the common things that you'll do is go up and be like, 426 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:29.960 what is your story about? You know? And for whatever I mean, 427 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.640 people would do that to me and I'd just be like, well, do 428 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:37.079 you have half an hour? You know, play And I never It wasn't 429 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:42.079 until I started focusing on that idea of creating an idea log line that I 430 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.039 you know, I can be like, oh, well, I really need 431 00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:48.400 to know how to say this quickly. And it's about is actually a good 432 00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:52.839 way in to find your love life. What's your story about? It's about 433 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:56.079 a person who experiences this thing so they have to do so and so, 434 00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:01.640 or it's about a person who wants to do so something in a particular way. 435 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:06.680 Or it's about this group of people who, in their attempt to do 436 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.480 such and such end up in conflict. So yeah, just starting with it's 437 00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:14.759 about is a great way in. But yes, you're the answer to that 438 00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:17.720 question is usually a sentence, it's not half a half an hour. Yeah, 439 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.880 Now, can you walk through a little bit of how to deal with 440 00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.119 act structure and destructure in general? For how to lay out their story. 441 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:29.920 Yeah, you know, I have a second edition as a coffee break screenwriter. 442 00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:32.039 No, I don't know. This is a big app and I just 443 00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:36.119 want to tell you what's all right, We'll buy the book. No, 444 00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:37.839 no, no, no. There's something new that's going to be in there, 445 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:43.240 that that I'm using in classes now that's not in the first one, 446 00:32:43.599 --> 00:32:45.880 and I can tell it to you right now. You don't have to buy 447 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:49.759 the second edition at all. But I want to tell you it's it's just 448 00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:53.359 the idea that for screenplay structure, all those books, everything we've been talking 449 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.599 about, all the analysis really comes down to, in my opinion, for 450 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.480 things, trauma, training, trials and triumphs. And the idea is that 451 00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.759 in Act one, if you will, or the beginning of your pilot, 452 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:13.400 trauma is that thing that sort of traumatizes a character into a new experience, 453 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:15.960 and it can be positive, it could be negative, or it could be 454 00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.519 positive. Falling in love as a trauma. Then the training is kind of 455 00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.920 an on the job kind of training where you're sort of learning about your new 456 00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:29.799 experience or your new environment by doing. And that could be seen as you 457 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:34.200 know, the first half of the second act or the first part of the 458 00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.920 middle for your pilot. Then we've got trials, which is a real pushback 459 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.839 and testing. Really you think you know what you're doing. Oh yeah, 460 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:45.559 well here's this big conflict that's going to happen, deal with that. And 461 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:52.359 then we've got triumph and which doesn't have to be happy ever after. Is 462 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.039 just that solving of the problem that we talked about, some kind of closure 463 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.359 and in a pilot that tends to be sort of a a mini solving of 464 00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:05.359 the problem with a greater question asked. So trauma, training, trials, 465 00:34:05.359 --> 00:34:07.719 and triumphs you ask my takeoff structure. That's pretty much what it is. 466 00:34:08.679 --> 00:34:12.920 Ther words that I can say really quickly, and that sounds kind of cool. 467 00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:16.000 I like it. Thank you, you can put it on a shirt. 468 00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:21.239 There you go. So it kind of reminds me of the Hero's journey 469 00:34:21.239 --> 00:34:23.239 a little bit. It's yeah, and I think it's sort of that idea 470 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:27.440 of what's everybody's saying, you know, we're all trying to say it in 471 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.920 different ways. Well, I think it really down those four things. There 472 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:32.360 you go. Okay, moving on. One of the things that I struggle 473 00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:37.760 with a lot is not so much the second act, but the what you 474 00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.880 have in your book, is the second second act that you be that middle 475 00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.280 part to Yeah huh, now that it seems like a lot of kind of 476 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:50.880 screenplays that's where they die in. Well, that's where that trials part comes 477 00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:55.719 in. And it is that pushback. And that pushback can be from an 478 00:34:55.760 --> 00:35:00.480 antagonist where somebody goes, you know what, I see you learning on the 479 00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:02.079 job and I don't like it. I don't want you to accomplish your goal. 480 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.800 I'm going to do something really big. So in act to B you 481 00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:09.639 might be thinking, okay, wait a minute, somebody is really going to 482 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:14.800 try and stop them in a major way. Or sometimes it's a character's flaw 483 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.400 that's the pushback. You know, the character was doing really well and even 484 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.719 sort of you know, dealing with their flaw overcoming it, but something about 485 00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:29.039 their nature just screwed it up. Their flaw was triggered, and that's the 486 00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:35.239 pushback. Sometimes it's an event that happens. We talked about that midpoint event 487 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:43.000 that happens right before that section that focuses the main character and forces them now 488 00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:49.079 to really accomplish one mission instead of several little moments of fun and games, 489 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:54.519 and that can make act to feel more important as well. And if you 490 00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:00.719 look at that as pushbacks, it's the idea that that person's now has this 491 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:04.760 mission and that's going to be really hard. It thought they were learning on 492 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.320 the job, they thought they got it okay, now they have to do 493 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.480 this. So those would be some ways I would be thinking about to heighten 494 00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.760 actually be and make it interesting and different so that the reader doesn't go, 495 00:36:15.880 --> 00:36:19.360 oh, here we are more of them. One of the things that I 496 00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:22.840 think a lot of writers get lost in and one of the things that you 497 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:27.320 guys do I think a really good job of on the podcast is talk is 498 00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:31.159 analyzing what people are writing, how they've put it together, and how if 499 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:37.440 somebody's going over the top in terms of explaining what the details are in the 500 00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.360 room, every painting on the wall and everything like that, what do you 501 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:45.719 in terms of rewriting so that people are actually making progress, What is your 502 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:51.880 advice for them? A big believer of essence statements. So instead of you 503 00:36:51.920 --> 00:36:53.199 said, you said, you know all that stuff in the wall, and 504 00:36:53.480 --> 00:36:59.079 you know the set decorating, So instead of set decorating your environment, is 505 00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:04.199 there a compara you have Is there a way of describing it in one sentence 506 00:37:04.360 --> 00:37:07.400 that is the personality of the room, the essence of the room. So 507 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:13.719 I think an example that I use is, you know, UM builds the 508 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.840 office screams CEO. So if a if a room is if an office is 509 00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:24.679 screaming CEO, you know that we've got a big desk and a huge chair, 510 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:30.320 and an imposing environment, and you know of diplomas all over the wall 511 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.880 something like that. The set decorator can do their job. You don't have 512 00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:37.920 to say they're all those things. The personality is just their screaming CEO. 513 00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:45.320 So I'm looking for those personality descriptions for environment for your rewrite, an essence 514 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:51.239 of character instead of just physicalizing them. Those kind of things help paint the 515 00:37:51.320 --> 00:37:54.159 picture and make your writing better. One of the things I love about doing 516 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.800 the podcast is I get to do a lot of research. So, you 517 00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.719 know, I've been watching some of your presentations that are on YouTube, and 518 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:06.159 I really loved you what you said about you don't want to you want to 519 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:08.320 make sure characters aren't just saying what they're thinking, you know, and that's 520 00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:12.800 a problem that people get into. It actually made me, it reminded me 521 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:14.920 of that. I don't know if you ever saw that S and L sketch 522 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:17.920 with Joe Montana where he just walks in and he's a guy that can only 523 00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:22.480 say what he thinks. You know, Leslie, I could talk to you 524 00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:29.320 for days. Gee, I'd like the jumper bones same here. You know, 525 00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.840 I haven't even noticed the time. See I wish he'd jumped my bones. 526 00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.320 Whoa, I didn't realize how late it was. You know, you're 527 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:40.880 welcome to spend the night here in the living room if she says yes, 528 00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:45.840 I'm home free. Gee, you know I really shouldn't. I don't want 529 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:59.400 to seem too trampy. Well suit yourself, Okay I will. Oh great 530 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.360 that my roommates Stu. Damn it, What a time for him to show 531 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:07.519 up. Terrific. I'd love to meet him. Oh no, he's going 532 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:12.199 to ruin everything. I think he really likes Stu. He's absolutely the most 533 00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:15.679 sincere, genuine, straightforward person you'll ever want to meet, a real honest 534 00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:22.440 guy. What a jerk he is? He sounds really nice. God he 535 00:39:22.559 --> 00:39:27.559 sounds boring. Oh here he is, hey, stew come on in. 536 00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:36.800 Oh I hope I'm not disturbing you. I hope I'm not disturbing them. 537 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:42.079 Not at all. God, he's gonna scare her away. Stut. This 538 00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:45.320 is Leslie Leslie. Stu, Hi, I'm very glad to meet you. 539 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:51.000 I'm very glad to meet her. Well, it's nice to meet you. 540 00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:55.760 God, this guy's a stiff. Leslie was going to sleep in the living 541 00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:05.440 room. We'll be right back after word from our sponsor, and now back 542 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:09.079 to the show. Unless that's a problem for you, in which case she 543 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:13.239 could sleep in my room and I could sleep on the floor. Come on, 544 00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:16.000 you idiot, help me out. You know, maybe it would be 545 00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:20.119 better if I stayed in Dan's room, because we don't want to inconvenience you. 546 00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:22.639 Hey, it's fine with me. If you stay in the living room, 547 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.519 you won't bother me at all. It's fine with me if she stays 548 00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:29.800 in the living room, that doesn't bother me at all. Well, thanks 549 00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:34.639 a lot, Stu, Yeah, thanks a lot. Jerk, You know 550 00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:39.199 you are so sweet? Boy? Is this guy wayme? Well, listen, 551 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.000 Stu, I think Leslie and I are going to stay up a while 552 00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:45.519 and talk. So I guess we'll see you tomorrow. Great, see you 553 00:40:45.559 --> 00:40:52.119 tomorrow. Great, I'll see them tomorrow. Do you listen. We'll talk 554 00:40:52.199 --> 00:40:55.199 quietly so as not to disturb you. Okay, oh, you won't disturb 555 00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:59.239 me. I'll be in my room masturbating. They're wan't to disturbing. I'll 556 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:07.320 be masturbating. It just follows it. I'll send you a link to it. 557 00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:10.760 But it's like exactly a thing that people. You know, if you're 558 00:41:10.760 --> 00:41:14.920 reading a screenplay, it's like, you know, I'm angry at you for 559 00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:16.320 this. Well, I think because you did this, because you know what 560 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:20.639 I mean? So can you can you talk a little bit about dialogue and 561 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:22.840 the way people, you know, use dialogue that's not just like on the 562 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.320 nose and the different kinds of dialogue. I guess you're awesome. You know 563 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:30.519 exactly what you're talking about. The the fact that a lot of people don't 564 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:37.480 understand that on the nose means saying what you absolutely feel. It's so weird 565 00:41:37.719 --> 00:41:40.800 for for a grown up to say exactly what they feel. Like. We've 566 00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:44.880 learned how to lie. That's that's what being a grown up is about. 567 00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:47.800 We've learned to say, wow, it's great to see you instead of oh 568 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:52.960 God, I can't believe it's you again. Um, because we're in civilized 569 00:41:52.000 --> 00:42:00.719 society and uh, and you know that's why with comedy. Often the comedy 570 00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:05.480 comes out of somebody who's simply unfiltered, who's just telling the truth. So 571 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:09.519 if you look at one example I've given in classes, I show a scene 572 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:15.320 from Silver Linings Playbook, and you know what makes those characters so incredibly quirky 573 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:21.880 and funny is the fact that they're in a romantic comedy and they're saying things 574 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.000 like you know, they're they're they're just speaking the truth to each other, 575 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:30.000 and it's just so weird and unfiltered and wrong that it's hilarious. I hope 576 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.400 you okay, we wrong? The sister coming over? Be okay with that? 577 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:37.719 Cool? Well, like a sister. Tiffany, Tiffany and Tommy. 578 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:43.199 Yeah, I'm just Tiffany, what happened to Tommy? He died? Tommy 579 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.000 die, cops die? How did he die? Please? Don't bring it 580 00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:47.719 up. No, how did he die? You said, how did you 581 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:53.800 die? Hey? Tiffany? Is this Pat? Pat? Is this mon? 582 00:42:53.840 --> 00:43:00.760 Tiffany? You look nice? Thank you flirting with you. I didn't 583 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.159 think you were. I just see that you made an effort, and I'm 584 00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.559 going to be better with my wife. I'm working on that. I want 585 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:09.239 to acknowledge your beauty. I never used to do that. I'm gonna do 586 00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:13.960 that now because we're gonna be better than never. Nikki. It's practicing. 587 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:19.440 I'll tell me die, what about your job? I just got fired? 588 00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:22.639 Actually? Oh really? How? I mean? I'm sorry? How'd that 589 00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:29.440 happened? Does it really matter? Or it's it's I should say. It's 590 00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:35.559 a completely new take on a traditional rom com, right, So yeah, 591 00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:39.559 I think that you have to be careful that if you're writing dialogue and it's 592 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:45.840 not intended to be funny and somebody is just saying what's on their mind, 593 00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:50.960 it's going to seem really cheesy. It's gonna seem like, you know, 594 00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:54.079 oh, I feel this mixture of attraction and revulsion right now. It's like, 595 00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:58.760 really, are you a human being? Don't you know how people really 596 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:02.159 talk? Which is the lie? You know? Instead of saying I'm feeling 597 00:44:02.159 --> 00:44:07.000 this mixture of a Jackson of revulsion, they might just say hello, and 598 00:44:07.239 --> 00:44:15.360 the action underneath would show the subtext. You know, they might do something 599 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:20.599 to express how they really feel, but the line itself is as simple as 600 00:44:20.719 --> 00:44:22.320 hello, I have That makes sense? Yeah, I mean I think that 601 00:44:22.760 --> 00:44:25.920 one of the thing you know, as a screenwriter You're always looking for things 602 00:44:27.719 --> 00:44:30.760 to make your audience curious, to make them want to know more, and 603 00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:35.400 to really pull them through the story, and you know, Spielberg is great 604 00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:37.199 at doing that. You always want to know what's going to come next, 605 00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:42.360 and when you when you have characters who aren't giving up everything and that you're 606 00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:45.639 you know, maybe at some point you're going to figure out what is actually 607 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.360 going through their brain. But I mean, it's it's a really important thing 608 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:52.840 I think to make people wonder, I wonder what that person actually is thinking, 609 00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.639 you know, versus what they say. You know, it's a great 610 00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.760 scene to go back to an old classic Spielberg scene that I just think shows 611 00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:07.280 that, um, I don't know, there's there's more subtext and subtlety in 612 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:15.320 certain Spielberg movies than people give those movies credit. For the mashed potato scene 613 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:22.320 in In You Know, I love the massed potato scene because there you are 614 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:29.039 at a family dinner and this guy becomes obsessed with building a mountain out of 615 00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.840 his mashed potatoes right in front of his family, and they're looking at him 616 00:45:31.880 --> 00:45:36.800 like he's the craziest guy in the world. When he looks up one of 617 00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:39.800 the kids is crying. The mom's mouth is a gape, and all he's 618 00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:45.000 been doing is showing what's in his head by playing with his massed potatoes. 619 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:51.320 And uh, it's it's a great scene. It's just it's it just sort 620 00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:57.960 of expresses it all without having to completely talk about it. Now, it 621 00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:00.960 does trigger him to finally say, Okay, this is what's going on with 622 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:06.519 daddy. But but the story is really told before he actually says that. 623 00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:09.400 Yeah, is that the same scene where he's like, you kids might have 624 00:46:09.519 --> 00:46:17.159 noticed the dad that yeah, yeah, it's no cool. Well, I 625 00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:28.559 guess you've noticed. It's something. It's a little strange with dad. It's 626 00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:43.760 okay though, still Dad, I can't describe it what I'm feeling, what 627 00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:54.320 I'm thinking. This means something, it's important. But if he started the 628 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.320 scene the daddy your kids might have noticed and blah blah blah blah, it 629 00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:02.360 would feel artificial on the nose. We needed the expression of what was in 630 00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:07.079 his brain through activity first, and that triggers him to finally have to admit, 631 00:47:07.159 --> 00:47:09.639 Okay, this is what's going on. Yeah. I mean, I 632 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.239 think something that I did back in my early screenwriting life is I would try 633 00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:19.960 to make things sound natural and how people. You know, You're like, 634 00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.360 Okay, I want it to be real, so I'm gonna I'm gonna write 635 00:47:22.360 --> 00:47:25.400 like people actually talk. But at the same time, it's like, you 636 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:30.679 can't do everything in your scripts has to be deliberate, you know, it 637 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:32.159 has to be moving you towards something. So I would just sit there and 638 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.599 write, you know, two people talking to each other, and then this 639 00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:37.760 would happen. Then that would happen. In my mind, I was like, 640 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:39.079 oh, I'm just setting up this world, but it wasn't There was 641 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.119 no point to it, right, and how people really talk. I'm not 642 00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:46.800 saying that people in movies shouldn't talk, Abay, people really don't really talk. 643 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:51.400 There needs to be an authenticity to the voice. But if we included 644 00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:55.960 every m and stutter and you know, and all those things that we do, 645 00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:02.800 it would be really difficult to watch, which is why we added a 646 00:48:02.840 --> 00:48:08.599 lot from the tops and bottoms of scenes, because often it takes us so 647 00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:14.559 long to get to the point, where with scene work on screen, we're 648 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:17.320 able to get to the point much quicker, and we can lop off all 649 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:21.599 that hemming and hawing that gets us there. Now, one of another thing 650 00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:25.280 in your book. That's really helped me a lot is the concept of goal 651 00:48:25.360 --> 00:48:30.079 action and conflict as you go through your scene. Can you talk a little 652 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:36.599 bit about that and the importance of breaking things down into those idea of goal 653 00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:38.960 action and the conflict that it calls. It's one of the ways I get 654 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:44.320 people to outline and just figure out their central beats so they can figure out 655 00:48:44.360 --> 00:48:45.840 what their story is. I ask, okay, well, you take all 656 00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:50.760 those scenes that you think are this part of the story and ask yourself, 657 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:53.079 what's the goal, what does a character want to do, what's the activity, 658 00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:57.800 what do they actually do not what do they think or feel or plan? 659 00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:00.840 And then what's the complications and what gets in their way? And if 660 00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:05.239 you can do that big picture, you can start to find your major beats. 661 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.679 But you can also do that in your scenes in terms of what does 662 00:49:08.719 --> 00:49:15.519 your character want from the scene and and how do they intend to get it. 663 00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:16.559 So, yeah, it can be done in the macro, it can 664 00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:20.639 be done in the micro, but it always sort of keeps you on story. 665 00:49:21.719 --> 00:49:25.199 So yeah, it's something I would just recommend as far as outlining and 666 00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.159 for rewriting. When you mentioned the idea that it's a macro and a micro 667 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:32.280 way of doing things. What I ended up I was going through and I 668 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:36.719 was putting together the different you know, in the book it breaks it up 669 00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.280 into first act, second act, second act B, and third act. 670 00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:44.079 And so what I ended up doing though, was I found that even in 671 00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:46.000 a moment by moment level, I was looking at it, you know. 672 00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:50.719 So I would have like five or six different moments in the first act alone 673 00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.480 where I was asking myself, Okay, here's this character, what is their 674 00:49:53.519 --> 00:49:57.320 goal, what do they want? What is the action that they're taking to 675 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.760 get that goal? And then what conflict is that causing. We'll be right 676 00:50:00.840 --> 00:50:07.599 back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. 677 00:50:09.119 --> 00:50:14.079 And it caused the scenes to be so much more dynamic, and you you 678 00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:17.320 understood the characters much more. I'm so glad that worked for you. I 679 00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:22.400 don't know if I want to go around going it's the gas system throwing up 680 00:50:22.440 --> 00:50:25.599 a little bit. I got I'm already making shirts. Can you talk just 681 00:50:25.639 --> 00:50:30.760 for just a second about once somebody has a final screenplay, once you've worked 682 00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:34.079 with them, once you've gotten it all, like ready, what is kind 683 00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:37.760 of the next phase after that? So? I think are you talking about 684 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:39.760 sort of like how would you push it toward a sale? Yeah, I 685 00:50:39.800 --> 00:50:43.800 mean, I guess the idea is that a lot of people that listen to 686 00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:45.519 this, and you know, there's a couple of things I wanted to go 687 00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:50.320 into that I won't just in terms of like people who are not in Los 688 00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:54.079 Angeles who want to ride and people who are trying to sell screenplays. Are 689 00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:58.159 you finding the people that you're working with are trying to build a career as 690 00:50:58.199 --> 00:51:00.840 screenwriters, like full time screenwriters or is it something that's kind of like a 691 00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:05.559 part time thing. And is it a viable option for people? I mean, 692 00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.320 what can they do once they have a screenplay that you sign off on, 693 00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:10.559 that you say, okay, this is really good. Well let's talk 694 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:15.480 about the people who don't live in LA. First, there's all kinds of 695 00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:22.719 different feelings about competitions, but my feeling is why not when you submit to 696 00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:25.960 competitions competitions know first of all that you might not be an LA person, 697 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:34.719 which actually is to your advantage because they're looking for diverse writers and that means 698 00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:39.079 diversity of experience in place as well, so that gives you an advantage. 699 00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:45.360 Another thing is it's a writing competition not a selling competition. So competitions are 700 00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.159 looking at your craft and not necessarily you know whether or not they want to 701 00:51:50.199 --> 00:51:52.280 take this on, and thinking about, oh, but there's a competing project. 702 00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:57.800 So both of those things can work in your favor. And once you 703 00:51:58.119 --> 00:52:01.760 do win a competition like that, it's become a bit of a vetting situation 704 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:07.760 for agents and managers who may not have their own personal reader pool and use 705 00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:15.199 competitions to as a reader pool in a way to help them find undiscovered material 706 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:21.840 so and undiscovered writers. So I do think that it is worth submitting to 707 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.880 competitions, you know, high level competitions, not necessarily you know, your 708 00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:30.960 friend's cousins competition, Who's bay me fifty bucks? And you know, you 709 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:34.480 want to make sure that there's some kind of particles at the end of that 710 00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:37.519 rainbow, for sure, So I would do that. Are there any competitions 711 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:42.119 that come to mind? Well, the Nickel Fellowship is definitely the most prestigious 712 00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:49.400 that's through the Academy Austin. Austin Film Festival screenwriting competition is also prestigious. 713 00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:53.480 Kind of the ones that are typical tongue for people those have been around the 714 00:52:53.800 --> 00:53:00.000 longest, and that usually means that they have the most success behind them. 715 00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:05.840 Blue Cat Screencraft is doing a good job as a new screenwriting competition because they 716 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.800 are genre oriented, and that means that it doesn't have to just be a 717 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:13.920 drama that wins, because they have their own comedy or horror category just for 718 00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:17.800 those films. So I think that's a good one. There's also a lot 719 00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:22.239 more open for TV now for competitions and short films too. A lot of 720 00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:27.000 short film competitions are out there that will give you money to make your film, 721 00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:31.239 which is awesome because making your stuff is also a great way to get 722 00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:37.000 people's attention. If you're from outside of LA and you have a good camera 723 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:42.599 and a really tight, smart script, and I'd be thinking about, you 724 00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:47.599 know, really short form content and you feel like you could make it without 725 00:53:47.639 --> 00:53:53.400 mortgaging your house and put it on YouTube and it's something that could get eyes 726 00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:58.760 on it. That's another way to go. People are looking for talent online, 727 00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:06.920 another way to go if you're you know, the pitch bests a lot 728 00:54:06.960 --> 00:54:12.559 of cynicism around them that and I can understand because there's this sense that they 729 00:54:12.559 --> 00:54:15.960 can be a little bit of a circus. But once you are one on 730 00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:19.119 one with somebody, that's your opportunity. It can be a pretty intimate, 731 00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:24.920 intimate moment, and it's an opportunity for face time with industry that you might 732 00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:30.559 not have otherwise. I think it's replaced the query letter as far as being 733 00:54:30.639 --> 00:54:34.280 sort of a cold look at your work. So all those things can be 734 00:54:34.320 --> 00:54:37.679 good for people who don't live here. For people who do live here, 735 00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:44.199 they're doing the same thing, but also they're looking for who do they know? 736 00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:49.039 Who knows somebody, and they're trying to mind their contacts. And in 737 00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:54.480 that case, what they're usually doing is saying, hey, person who knows 738 00:54:54.519 --> 00:55:00.239 my friend not can you read my screenplay? Could I take you out for 739 00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:04.400 coffee and can I pick your brain a little bit? And if you make 740 00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:07.199 that relationship by the end of coffee, they might say, yeah, sure, 741 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:10.239 send me script. But you don't want to start with a favor. 742 00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:15.159 You want to start with mining relationships. And that's what people in LA do 743 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:22.639 and why the caricature of that is known as you know, as as us 744 00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:29.440 being very smoothy, but really, you know, it's it's it's how an 745 00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:34.000 LA person moves up is they have to make their relationships, and a lot 746 00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:37.800 of people in the industry live out here and they got to make friends, 747 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:40.920 you know, and I think making friends is actually not a bad thing. 748 00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:46.599 So yeah, So that's that's my advice for moving things forward, just a 749 00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:51.719 little bit of it. The people who come on my show, they always 750 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:59.440 have interesting stories about how they got in and inevitably it's always some kind of 751 00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:02.639 random moment. But the only thing that ties them together is that their work 752 00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:07.559 was ready when they got that opportunity. They had a great, kick ass 753 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.760 script, which is why I tend to stay on the content side, trying 754 00:56:12.760 --> 00:56:15.519 to get people to write a kick ass script. If people need to have 755 00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:19.320 a body of work, I mean, should they have like some people say, 756 00:56:19.400 --> 00:56:22.039 three screenplays or four screenplays that they can show. I don't know if 757 00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:27.119 there's a magic number, but I do know that the first thing somebody says 758 00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.800 after they've read something is what else have you got? So you want to 759 00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:36.159 make sure that you're at least knee deep in something else before you, you 760 00:56:36.199 --> 00:56:39.840 know, paper your script all over town. Because if the answer is I 761 00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:45.400 don't know, well, you know, at least be like, yeah, 762 00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:50.800 I certainly do got something else. And as soon as I'm done polishing it 763 00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:58.159 up. I'll get knock yourself in a room and finish the effort. Well, 764 00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:00.320 you know, I know you got to go. So what how can 765 00:57:00.519 --> 00:57:02.440 just so people can get in touch with you? I assume most people have 766 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.679 already heard of on the page, but um what what does what you're info? 767 00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:09.519 I know, I don't know if most people have heard of on the 768 00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:14.079 Page. That'd be cool if they have, but if you haven't, just 769 00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:15.239 so you know, Yeah, there is a podcast called on the Page. 770 00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:20.519 It's not on iTunes, but also I think a catch off for my classes. 771 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:24.920 The podcast my book. I also have some recorded classes for people who 772 00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:29.480 live out of town. It's just go to on the page dot tv. 773 00:57:29.679 --> 00:57:34.519 That's my website. It's got it all they are and and I'd love to 774 00:57:34.559 --> 00:57:37.519 work with you some day. I want to thank Jason so much for doing 775 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:40.360 such a great job on this episode. If you want to get links to 776 00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:44.280 anything we spoke about in this episode, head over to the show notes at 777 00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:47.440 Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv Forward slash Tune ninety four. Thank you so much for 778 00:57:47.480 --> 00:57:52.079 listening, guys, As always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll 779 00:57:52.119 --> 00:57:55.440 talk to you soon. Thanks for listening. To the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcasts at 780 00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:58.480 Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv.