Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is not intended for all
audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Did you do anything that hurt No,
I would never. Just like, fucking my girlfriend just got murdered and you're
fucking blaming me for it, dude, What the fuck? Hello and welcome.
This is season ten, episode two hundred and forty one of Sword and
Scale, a show that reveals that the worst monsters are real. Well,
we hope you've been enjoying our new show, Sword and Scale Nightmares. That
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let's get started. Shale. There's a common phrase among homicide detectives that goes
a little something like this, It's always the husband. While this phrase is
usually said in jest, it's broader meaning is that when a woman is found
to be murdered, the culprit is almost certainly her current or former intimate partner.
The main reason this phrase exists is because statistically, women are much more
likely to be killed by their part or their ex than by anyone else.
According to FBI data, about sixty three percent of adult female homicides are committed
by current husbands and boyfriends or ex husbands and ex boyfriends. While that is
the majority, it means that thirty seven percent of all other female homicides are
committed by someone else, and unfortunately, that's a pretty big number, especially
when you consider that more than three thousand women are murdered in the United States
every year. It also means that the phrase it's always the husband is wildly
inaccurate. Still, when a female murder case is investigated, the husband,
boyfriend, or x often becomes the center point of the investigation. They become
the main suspect, and any kind of circumstantial evidence can make them seem more
guilty than the day is long. Statistically speaking, they are probably guilty,
but there are many many murder cases where the current or ex partner is simply
not to blame. About one hundred miles west of Boston, SIT's the historic
city of Chickapee, Massachusetts. Perhaps best known for being home to the largest
Air Force base in the United States, Chickapee is also the second largest city
in western Massachusetts, with a population of over fifty five thousand people. This
sprawling city is no stranger to crime or murder. In March of twenty thirteen,
a young Chickapee man made a bizarre phone call to nine one one.
After explaining a very strange plight to the operator, The young man was ultimately
transferred to a homicide at Active Well. The policeman recorded, Would I get
in trouble for turning over a friend? What do you want to try a
friend over for? Well? They called me, and I don't know if
I should take it too Okay, what what's the crime that was committed?
They said, they killed somebody a couple of years ago. According to the
caller, he had recently received a shocking email from a friend in that email
his friend confessed to murdering a young woman in twenty eleven. You just got
the email today, Yeah, I think it's scared the hell out of me.
He was having a thing for a week prior and then when she turned
down because he trying to get into it with her, he's taught mad and
stabbed her and then got scared and ran. Did he say where he stabbed
her? No, he wanted to say where he diffendy stabbed her or over
then you know, like different multiple times. And the girl, what did
you say in her name was Amanda? I couldn't pronounce the last name.
Last. Back in August of twenty eleven, about two years before this nine
one one call was placed, twenty year old Amanda Plas was living by herself
in a small apartment in Chickapee. At some point during the latter half of
August, Amanda invited her friend Cairo to her apartment. You visited her that
day and you had not seen her for a while, correct, That is
the absolute trees yet. And when you saw that day, how did you?
Guys? Those way look up on Facebook? But she was like onboard
or whatever, and I was like me too, and then I think we
did the number of thing, because I don't. I don't even think I
had her number, because her and I I didn't really not ever lost touch.
But I guess you could say we weren't ever close friends, like I
didn't have her number before this day. Cairo's meet up with Amanda that day
was an impromptu late morning get together, and according to Kay, when she
arrived at Amanda's apartment, she didn't notice anything that caught her attention or anything
that seemed unusual. You saw Amanda outside. I saw Amanda outside. I
didn't see anything suspicious or that I would have noticed to be out of the
ordinary, something that she had told me of the back, when someone was
maybe calling at her while she was outside, whether it was just someone being
and at hy mommy or whatever, aside from an annoying cat call. Cairo
explained that Amanda didn't mention any specific problems that she had that morning, and
after Cairo arrived, the two young ladies went inside Amanda's apartment where they smoked
some weed. After lighting up, Amanda and Cairo quickly started to bond,
and Amanda began talking about her new boyfriend, Seth, So her and Seth
were very open about like their relationship, and she's like, oh yeah,
we was it smoked, sexed and showered because she was telling me about their
little morning together and oh yeah, su sex and shower, so I had
known that she had already showered with him. Among the boyfriend chit chat,
Cairo and Amanda also talked about life in general. Topics like family, work,
and personal interests all came up. The conversations that you had with her
up there as yeah, yeah, it was really it was like great to
see her. I hadn't seen her in so long, we had been acquaintances.
When it was great. I was going to her apartment and how you
doing. You're living on your own now, you know, just basically telling
her how proud I was over and just fully, shit, you're crushing,
like Harry, I'm stillivan back at my folks house, you know, and
I'm working on my grind. And I was like, dude, that's awesome,
Like you're on your own and you're just doing really awesome for yourself.
She seemed really happy living on her own. It was like her second apartment
or something like she'd seemed like she'd been on her own for a while.
We're just really trying to like connect. I was excited the media was making
I guess you did a new friendship for the future. Amanda Lynn Plas was
born in December of nineteen ninety in Chickapee and was well known for her bright
and bubbly personality, her big green eyes, and her natural brunette curls.
As a young woman, Amanda was self sufficient and seemingly on top of all
the things that are required to make an independent life possible. She had her
own place, her bills were paid, and she was able to make ends
meet by working full time as a waitress at a nearby Friendli's restaurant. In
addition to being a responsible young adult, Amanda was also artistic, and she
had a passion for drawing, painting, and playing guitar. She also really
enjoyed going to music festivals with her friends. Do you go to music festivals
like you love art? You love music? And as we started talking about
life and saith and what she was doing and what she've been doing the past
summer and music festivals and life's crazy. That was basically what we talked about,
and then we kind of touched out her family life a little bit,
so I thing told me her brothers in the military super proud of him.
Older sister kind of lost touch because the sister had a baby. So it
was crazy. In the little seguae of time that we had together, I
really felt like I got a window into her life. Amanda class was vibrant,
attractive, charmingly quirky, and extremely personable. She was a free spirit,
a modern day hippie, perhaps born in the wrong era. Amanda was
also determined to live her life in her own way and was actively doing all
the responsible things needed to make the lifestyle that she wanted a reality. During
her visit to Amanda's apartment, Row was a bit surprised by how open Amanda
was with her, but Kiro was also impressed by it, and she welcomed
their overt and intimate conversation. At some point during the visit, Amanda got
a bizarre and frankly pretty haunting phone call, but Amanda handled it in typical
Amanda fashion. She received a phone call, didn't know what was, didn't
know the number. Hello, just bubbling old Amanda. How's it going.
I can hear you breathing. You're not saying anything, just like being a
goofball. Literally just given whoever it was just to make them feel like a
weird ow, I guess, and she's like, well, what are you
doing? And then like hung on bath the phone, and then she kind
of talked to me a little bit about, Yeah, I kind of sometimes
get these weird calls from my stalker. Apparently Amanda had a stalker who would
frequently call her but never said a word and only breathed heavily and Amanda before
abruptly hanging up. I used to think that kind of thing was an eighties
TV trope that didn't really happen, But I guess I was wrong. It
was pretty creepy stuff, but every time it happened, Amanda shrugged it off
and went about her merry way. Perhaps even more frightening, Amanda had recently
returned from a two day music festival, and when she arrived back home,
she found that her apartment had been broken into and burglarized. Did she express
any any problems at her apartment there had been a previous break in. I
really can't recall that, but I know for a fact that the apartment had
been broken into, buffore and they did take lead. One of the most
notable things about this break in was that not much was taken. Aside from
a few mostly cheap items. The burglar only stole Amanda's secret stash of marijuana,
and they seemed to know exactly where to find it. This suggested that
the thief had likely been inside Amanda's apartment before, and that they weren't some
random person off the street. They were probably someone that Amanda knew, and
probably someone that Amanda considered to be a friend. In any case, after
Amanda told Cairo about her new boyfriend, her family, her stalker, and
the recent break in, Kiro left, leaving Amanda plenty of time to get
ready for work. When I left, she was getting ready for work.
She didn't tell me she had plans in between, but there was enough time
for her to do whatever, Like, there was definitely somewhere to pick her
up, to her to go somewhere. It was early enough that she could
have done something before work. So what do you mean by getting ready for
work? What exactly? What was she doing? Nothing, just daid letting
me know that she had to start getting ready for work. I think the
mental preparedness that you give yourself. Although Amanda had her own place, she
didn't have a car and would usually depend on her friends to drive her to
work. For the past four or five days, Amanda's boyfriend Seth had been
giving her the rides that she needed. So you say you've known Amanda for
a week, nor her a week her last Friday? I've known her like
she's at when the school with her and everything. I just never even never
hung out, hung out. I guess I hunt for the first time,
right. Yes, Seth and Amanda went to high school together, but they
didn't really start dating or really didn't know much about each other until well after
graduation. In fact, when Seth was questioned by the police, he had
only been dating Amanda for about a week. She slept at a Manda's last
night. Yes, did you say the whole night at our house? Last
night? She gets out of work eleven, two o'clock at night? Any
problems last night at all? I was so happy. So you guys just
talked last night? What do you mean, did you guys stay up a
while or did you go right there like the right a bit had sex in
to bed. According to Seth, on August twenty fifth, twenty eleven,
he slept at Amanda's apartment just as he had done the last few nights.
The next morning, Seth and Amanda woke up, had sex and took a
shower together. Then Seth headed off to work. Would you work here today
Springfield park side? Would you do there? Uthing? Did you do routing?
Yeah? What time did you work today? They had left her house
at like eight thirty swelling. The typical routine for Seth and Amanda, or
at least the brief routine that they seemed to have established in the last week
or so, was that Seth would go to work in the morning, and
when he was finished with a shift, he would return to Amanda's apartment to
take her to work. Then, after Amanda finished her workshift, Seth would
pick her up and they would go back to Amanda's apartment. On this particular
day, however, Seth called Amanda to let her know that he would not
be able to get her to work on time. When the last time he
talked her one o'clock. He talked to her every day, everyday her every
day, every time after working, were there and bring her to work and
we can pick her up on her sleep together. How did it come to
to mark through at four o'clock? How did it come to you talked to
her at four o'clock Oliday and to tell her I was regulate. Seth had
to work late, which meant that Amanda would need to find a ride to
the Friendli's restaurant with someone else. According to Seth, Amanda told him that
she was able to find someone who could give her a left, and Seth
promised to visit Amanda at her job after he got off. To Seth's surprise,
when he arrived at Friendlies later that evening, Amanda wasn't there. Because
so you went to Amanda's work, frially, did you expect to see her
there? Yeah, that's why I just went in. I sat down and
then I texted her. I was like, I'm at the front desk and
I didn't see her. I adn't kind of response, and I asked one
of her friends that I could I go there and pick her up. And
one of the kids that works with her, I had talked to you him,
and I was like, where demand that you should an hour and a
half fat? So the kids said he was an hour a fleet. Would
you do? I left before he left? You called her? You called
her a text me and I walked way back to my car. I texted
her and see where are you? And I tried calling her a couple of
times. She didn't answer again. Amanda was an especially responsible young woman.
For her to not show up to work was pretty out of character. Despite
this, Seth claimed that he didn't immediately become concerned. Instead, he assumed
that Amanda had simply fallen asleep and was missing her work shift by accident.
Seth also claimed that he went to his grandma's house to pick up some fresh
clothes and drove to Amanda's apartment, where he planned to wake Amanda up and
take a shower. She wasn't at work, so I figured maybe you know,
she wasn't better, so maybe she'd fall asleep and she's sleeping on That's
why I went that's where house to see if she was pounded on the door
from Ante and I realized her window was pretty what part of the window was
right in the center moment there was like a little thinking through a rock,
maybe that being through it. When Seth arrived at Amanda's apartment, he supposedly
knocked a few times and didn't get a response. He then noticed that Amanda's
front window was broken, so Seth decided to enter her apartment. According to
Seth, Amanda's front door was locked, but the lock itself was pretty flimsy,
and anyone with even a small incentive to break in could easily bypass it
by sliding something into the doorframe, which is exactly what Seth claimed that he
did. You walk into that little entryway. What do you see when you
first walk in there? As soon as I walked in, the cat,
the cat walked outside. There's go away into the kitchen. She walked into
the kitchen. What do you see when you walk into the kitchen? I
saw red? What do you mean? You saw red? Red all over
the floor? Her foot? So you went in the kitchen as soon as
you came in, so red all over the flour? Is that blood you
saw? She was like, fro did you walk into the kitchen when you
saw this? The blood on the floor? Steward? She was pretty getting
her So she was laying there on the ground, So throw the sloplay.
Seth told the police that when he walked into a man his kitchen, he
learned why Amanda had not shown up to work. According to him, he
found Amanda on the floor, lying in a pool of her own blood,
Her throat was slit and she was completely unresponsive. Now, you said that
you checked to see how she was treating. How did you do that?
I said? You guys says the build just if he was moving. They
tried blowing into a mother bloods and it's kind of blew it through it.
How long did you stay next to her? As it's okay, take a
minute, take a minute if you need it. Through his sobbing, Seth
explained that he tried to render first aid to Amanda and performed CPR, but
when blew into her mouth, his breaths came back at him through the open
slit on her throat. There was nothing that Seth or anyone could do for
Amanda. She had been brutally stabbed to death and had likely been dead for
several hours before Seth founder. After finding Amanda's body, Seth called nine one
one. When the police arrived, they found Seth on Amanda's front porch.
He was sobbing and lying in a fetal position. They then found Amanda's butchered
body on the kitchen floor of her apartment. What followed was an intense and
often frustrating murder investigation that led homicide detectives to follow several leads, some of
which involved a new boyfriend, an angry ex boyfriend, and even a jealous
ex girlfriend. In the end, the brutal slaying of Amanda Plas would go
unresolved for two years, but eventually a hidden clue inside Amanda's apartment would lead
detectives to a culprit that no one ever suspected. On the night of August
twenty sixth, twenty eleven, twenty year old Amanda Plass was found stabbed to
death on the kitchen floor of her apartment. Amanda lived by herself in Chiapee,
Massachusetts, and supposedly her body had been discovered by her new boyfriend Seth
after Seth first went to her job at a local friendly's restaurant and couldn't find
her. Amanda's immediate family members included her mom, her dad, her older
sister, and a younger brother. As to be expected, when news of
Amanda's murder reached her family, Amanda's mom took it especially hard to know her
was to love her her month and you were forever friend. She would get
you Where would you forget her? Crazy curly hair started where you are?
Soon after Amanda's death, her family organized a large vigil and funeral in her
honor. Meanwhile, the Chickapee Police Department continued investigating the crime, and the
first person they focused on, of course, was Amanda's boyfriend, twenty year
old Seth Greene. Now, not that one. What else did you see
about the scene? Anything unusual, because you know, we only see the
work. The blood was smeared around a little bit. She tried to cry,
slip over to the fridge. They didn't looking through the struggle. Don't
know how they got in, like, kn't understanding the doors locked. When
detectives processed the crime scene, they found several things of note. First,
when Amanda was found, she was wearing a bra, her work pants,
and socks. She was clearly in the process of getting ready for work when
the murder happened. And next to Amanda's body was a bloody shoeprint that must
have been left by the killer because Amanda wasn't wearing shoes. Based on their
analysis of the shoeprint, the police determined that the killer was either a woman
that wore a size nine or a man that wore a size seven. Also,
the police found that one of Amanda's front windows had been broken, but
they later determined that this was not how the killer gained entry into the home,
because the window had been broken from the inside. More than likely the
killer came in through the front door by picking its flimsy lock, the back
door, which was found unlocked, or Amanda had simply invited them in.
Finally, and certainly most glaringly, this murder was extremely brutal. A large
dent was found on Amanda's refrigerator, which almost certainly happened during the struggle.
Amanda fought for her life, but she was overpowered, and the dent on
the fridge was made by Amanda's head when she was thrown into it. Also,
Amanda was found lying in a pool of her own blood and had basically
been butchered to death with a very sharp knife. She had fifteen knife wounds
on her body, seven of which could have been fatal, and one of
which was a long, deep slit across her throat. Based on this,
and based on the fact that nothing appeared to be stolen, the police theorized
that this was not some random home invasion or burglary. Someone was very angry,
someone handed out for Amanda and more than likely it was someone that Amanda
knew. Is there anything that you could think of it you didn't all that
happened today? Any problems with you in a man at all? Amazing?
I fucking loans or so? Like I met her like a week ago,
and I was already falling with her, like that's like on her, like
you've had such a good time together. Like. According to Seth, his
and Amanda's relationship was at an early stage where everything was all sunshine and butterflies.
They had just started to get to know each other, and we're quickly
falling in love. Here's the problem I have. You say that you just
met her a week ago whenever we ask a question like, oh I hardly
New Orleans or will you go? But then on the other hand, you
tell us that you loved her. Yeah, So I mean I just want
is it well, you can't that that doesn't happen he's unheard of too,
or like I don't know. I mean he was an amazing girl like I.
So you guys have connected with anyone like I connected with her like,
and I'm pretty sure she felt the same way. Throughout this interview with Seth,
the detectives frequently stepped out of the interrogation room, leaving Seth alone,
and every time they did, Seth sobbed uncontrollably. Oh fuck the fuck.
Fuck. Seth was clearly emotional, but the detectives weren't convinced that his tears
were genuine, given that he had only known Amanda for a week. His
tearful sobs seemed over the top and manufactured. Either that or Seth wasn't crying
for Amanda. Maybe he was just crying for himself. Something else that bothered
detectives was Seth's actions after he had discovered Amanda's body. Seth claimed that he
tried to perform CPR on Amanda, and when that didn't work, he called
nine one one. So far, so good. But then as he was
on the phone with a nine one one operator, Seth took the time to
hide some marijuana pipes that were lying around the apartment. There's like pride four
on the table. Hey, let me ask you a question. You know,
if if my wife, girlfriend wherever was in there, yeah, throw
the slit. One of the last things I would worry about is clean it
up. Why did you take the time to do that? I would have
streaking out would he want me to do? You know, I don't know.
I don't know what the fuck to do. And you take the time
to pick up four little balls, I mean nothing when you know that your
girl that you love is dead. I guess yeah. Seth's explanation for hiding
weed paraphernalia amidst a brutal homicide was that he was just accustomed hiding that kind
of stuff anytime there was a chance that cops might show up. He claimed
he was operating on pure instinct, which I guess kind of makes sense.
Even so, it is a strange thing to do when the woman you supposedly
love is lying in a pool of her own blood just a few feet away.
Something else that caught the attention of detectives was the blood they noticed on
Seth's pants, along with what appeared to be a deep cut on his right
hand. How did you blake it on your pants? Her unnail next to
her? Who told you right here? I guess don't pull Okay, it's
got dirting it from your roof into So it's not he's just cutting myself.
You're stabbing her or something. It's not like I just cut myself, stabbing
her or something. I don't know if that's what you're referring to. I
saw him ye. Seth claimed that he got blood on his pants when he
knelt next to Amanda's body, and that the cut on his hand was work
related. Again, this all made sense and was pretty probable, but then
came the inevitable line of questioning about where Seth was when Amanda was killed,
and Seth Salibi was more than just a little suspect. They stand the whole
on the job all day. You get materials a couple of times. What
time did you lead to at the materials? There was a few time to
they have us like three times. You're driving a van nowhere else would you
Okay, you go to the you pick up the stuff, you go back
to the job. Do you stop anywhere after getting the revi? Yeah,
went back to the job, didn't seers. According to Seth, he was
working the entire day, but as a roofer, some of his responsibilities included
driving his work van to various places to pick up supplies. Seth admitted that
he had made some of these supply runs by himself, which meant no one
could vouch for his exact whereabouts throughout the day. Even worse, some of
his travel put him within walking distance of Amanda's apartment. You're pretty close to
home at that point, were you. Yeah, that's right next train your
house, little hand see or two when I go and they stopped at their
house, said something coming. You do when you go to give materia,
you just stop at the house really quick to share it from Noll And just
happened that a couple of times. So between Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday Thursday,
No, four days when you're making deliveries, two of those days you
stop by the place, right, Why why don't you go by today because
you're finishing up the job And they rushed me. In life, they've been
getting pissed at me because they've been coming in late and I take forever when
they go polices, you don't bitch at me for that. Seth told detectives
that during his supply runs he would sometimes stop at Amanda's apartment to say hi,
but on the day of the murder, he coincidentally decided against it,
mainly because his boss had recently given him shit for taking too long. Once
again, Seth had an explanation that made sense and afforded him plausible deniability at
some point today when you were banking those deliveries, you took your car.
No, your car was at our apartment, did I? Yeah? No,
it wasn't. It wasn't. No, you sure positive you didn't take
your car at all. Your car stayed at the job site. I think
car was not at that apartment. It was there at nine this morning before
I left. Yeah, someone thought they saw your car at the apartment.
It wasn't. You didn't go there at it did not go there at all
time. Did you do anything that hurder? No? I would never sign
anybody, just like, fucking my god friend just got murdered, and you're
fucking blaming me for a dude holding me here? What the fuck? Even
after detectives pressed him, Seth maintained that he never went to Amanda's apartment during
his work shift, and as his interview came to an end, the cops
did what they usually do in this kind of situation. They asked Seth what
he thought had happened. Well, do you think happened to her? I
don't know. You don't fucking happy than I've made her ex boyfriend's band that
she's talking to me, She said. Her ex boyfriend was abusive. She's
such a fucking happy earl. I don't see you're having problems with done anything
you can think of with her boyfriend. Before Amanda's started dating Seth, she
was seeing one of her co workers, twenty one year old Jesse Columbie.
Jesse worked with Amanda at Friendly's, and even though they had hooked up,
they never cleared themselves to be boyfriend and girlfriend. They had a short fling
and Amanda didn't seem very interested in pursuing things beyond that. Jesse, however,
clearly wanted something more. You told us that you guys have relationship,
yes, and it wasn't serious, so to speak, so it kind of
broke off. Yeah, but we also found out you have been sitting a
lot of text messages this past weekend, correct, Yeah, I texted her.
She texted me on Thursday, just past Thursday. Yeah, the DIA
senior at work. Okay, yep, so on, and we didn't tell
us about that, so one I thought I did, said that was the
last time I talked to us on Thursday, Yeah, the day before she
died. Right. Yeah. During Jesse's police interview, there are a few
moments where he suspiciously seems to pass the buck. In contrast to Seth's police
interview, Jesse didn't need to be prompted or asked what he thought happened to
Amanda. Instead, he went out of his way to offer up a few
theories. And I don't know if I told you about I tell you guys
about that name that that kid wrote on that thing, like a dry erase
board in her apartment. She thought like her apartment got like broken into and
they stole like heavy stuff, like and stuff. She thought it was some
kids that she had met and bought ed off on, some little Puerto Rican
kid. He's got to live like somewhere within like two second walk there.
It was that I don't know his name. His name was written down,
That's all I know. I can't think of enough. I think it begins
with a D. The D name that Jesse mentioned was in reference to something
that was written on a dry erase board in Amanda's apartment. Scrawled in haphazard
writing next to some of Amanda's doodling was a sentence. It read, Dennis
was here eight dash eleven dash eleven. The date next to Dennis's name was
only two weeks before Amanda was killed. Eventually police learned that this Dennis person
was Amanda's pot dealer. Where did you meet her? I met her by
family dollar in Teshi and young I had like non owner before before she was
killed. You met her at one time? Oh, by a family dollars.
Yeah. It was been to her apartments, like up the stairs and
that's about it. On the porch, Dennis admitted that he supplied Amanda with
weed and that he had been to her apartment once. Dennis explained that when
he went there, he brought along his girlfriend. They met up with Amanda
and smoked weed on her back porch. According to Dennis, his girlfriend wasn't
exactly thrilled that Dennis had made a new female friend, and not long after
she was introduced to Amanda, she ended their relationship. How long did you
stay with him? I got him back, but the fight started getting more
like more constant, and then that's when I got tired of it and I
ended up getting arrested for matter against him when I hit him with the bat.
Dennis and his then girlfriend Crystal lived together in a small house just two
blocks from Amanda's apartment, and their relationship wasn't anything to write home about.
They were known to argue a lot, and they had serious trust issues,
and after Crystal met Amanda, things turned violent. Crystal attacked Dennis with a
baseball bat and stabbed him in the chest. My girlfriend would at letter knife,
Well, Sammy would have fuck motor knife. Are you fucking kidding me?
The way giving the money to go out and drink? Yeah, so
they come the file charges. Are that about it? Yeah? So a
mattery charges with badly weapons and you know me, we're bat on my head.
Given that Crystal had a proclivity to solve her problems with violence, and
that one of her violent methods of choice was stabbing, the police wondered if
Amanda's murderer wasn't the result of some angry boyfriend or ex boyfriend. Maybe Amanda
was killed by someone else's jealous girlfriend. Maybe just maybe the killer was a
woman. I know you had trust issues, but you had a problem with
him. Borned by Amanda's hostile I didn't even know where she lived, her,
who she was, that you met Amanda's who get it? Yes,
that one time I went to her and that's the only time I've seen her
as despite her recent breakup, with Dennis. Crystal claimed that she didn't have
any problems with Amanda and that she had never gone back to Amanda's apartment after
first meeting her. For police, the list of potential suspects was getting longer,
and while they left all options open, the detectives refocus their attention on
Amanda's coworker and x fling, Jesse Colombie. According to Jesse, the last
time he saw and spoke with Amanda was the day before she died. Do
you actually talked to her that day? You would guys work together that Thursday?
Yeah, I talked to her for like a minute you were between it,
would you guys talk? Well, not really, she would just kind
of make falling away. I Mean, here's the thing I'm curious about,
because that's not what we heard. We heard that Cheths went in there gave
her a kiss that made you want to call them there for like a while.
So that was in there for like a good forty though. You did
see Septom into Thursday, right, Yes, and he did kiss. He
did kiss a man in front of you and me thought I've seen I never
said that, well, I never seen I've never seen them physically kiss,
seeing them talking. It didn't bother me. I was talking to Seth.
Did you know that her and sets were together? Yeah. Jesse claimed that
Amanda's new relationship with Seth didn't bother him, but the text messages that he
sent Amanda suggested otherwise. When did you talk for again or you would you
text mess here or would you had to texted her because so as you left
for her? Yeah, would you text her? I asked her? She
asked me if she wanted her shirt. She wanted her shirt sack. Then
I asked if she wanted to brace her back in staid I could have gave
it to her because I was wearing it, and she said keep it silate
to give. She was almost like, you guys are breaking up? Yeah,
we were like done talking. Was there any anger in the text?
Not in that text, I mean blues, but there was some anger and
some all the text, weren't they? Yeah. The weekend before Amanda decided
to call it quits with Jesse, she had gone to a music festival with
a few friends, and it was at this festival that she and Seth hooked
up for the first time. During and after the festival, Amanda didn't respond
to many of Jesse's text messages. Needless to say, Jesse wasn't thrilled that
Amanda was suddenly giving him the cold shoulder, Like we were talking and she
just didn't talk to me for a few days, and I just wondering what
was going on, but she didn't tell me, so she wouldn't tell you
what, like, what was going on while she really talking to me?
How many texts you think you sent her? Good amount? What's a good
amount? Twenty twenty unanswered texts? Twenty good god Fellas a little advice,
if a woman says no, it means no. If she doesn't respond to
you after a second or third text, that's probably a pretty good sign that
you should just move on. Otherwise you start looking a little desperate and quite
frankly pathetic. And if you go anywhere beyond five or six texts, well,
let's just say you look like a psychopath. This advice isn't exclusively to
men, by the way, Ladies, the same holds true for you in
any case. Jesse was seemingly hell bent on pursuing a relationship with Amanda,
whether she wanted one or not. He was infatuated by her, But Amanda
just wasn't interested. For police, Jesse seemed to have a motive to commit
murder, and that motive was perfectly in line with their crime scene. Remember,
the murder of Amanda Plass was extremely bloody and brutal. The killer wasn't
angry, they were completely enraged. Not only did Jesse have a reason to
be enraged, but he also might have had a reason to hide evidence,
specifically his unanswered texts to Amanda. Would you do with those text messages that
you text? There? You delete them? All texts are deleted, But
why did you delete yours? Thing needs to be deleted and need to be
delut You know I had to delete message. I got all kinds of mess
in my phone. I'm just asking why did you delete a message? I
told you why because I didn't be deleted, so I deleted them. I
just didn't want to. First of all, I didn't want to look at
any conversation to me and her, just because it made me sad. I
do you even think about her? Why? Is it because she's murdered.
I didn't even want to have to look at him. Everything reminds me of
her. On top of the fact that Amanda wasn't responding to Jesse, which
by itself was making Jesse pretty upset. He had to learn about Amanda's new
relationship with Seth on Facebook. Now, were you upset that she wasn't responding
to you? Or were you upset that Seth was hooking up with her?
I was upset that she wasn't responding to me, So yeah, I texted
her one time about Seth And what did you say in that text? And
I told her I was like, you and Seth, that's cute. Well,
let me ask you this, when did you know that her and Seth
became a couple. I've seen it on Facebook? When was that? All?
Okay, sure, give me a guess. Few days before last scene?
He so that was this past week? Thursday said Thursday? Oh yeah,
well that was work? Yeah so yeah, yeah, so it was
like three days before he died, right, likes four days. Jesse learned
that Amanda was dating Seth just days before Amanda was killed, and after the
murder happened, Jesse stayed pretty far away from anything having to do Amanda.
How did you finally find out that she something happened to him? From Alison?
She called me and told me that someone broken and she's not Did she
say how she's done with us anymore? Do you know now how she's done
with us? Now? I don't know specifics, So you, to this
day you still don't know how she died. Jesse was first interviewed by police
four days after Amanda was killed, and he claimed that over the course of
those four days he never took the time to find out exactly how Amanda was
killed. I find that very hard to believe that you have no idea how
she died when everybody's talking about it on the news show. I haven't listened
to anything. I haven't even read the paper fok on Facebook, I'm not
talking about her, but I haven't heard people talking about physically how what happened.
Now this you were so much in love with her, but you sent
all those texts, right, you said all those texts. Next thing you
know, you don't even you don't even know how she died. I don't
know how she died. That would be a normal response wanting to know how
she died. I would you hear about a girl you liked? Would you
want to hear about how she was murdered? Absolutely? Not only had Jesse
supposedly made no effort to seek out the details of Amanda's death, but he
was also conspicuous by his absence during the large vigil that was held in Amanda's
honor. You know, the wink was yesterday, right, Why didn't you
go to Amanda's week? I was planning, I don't going. I was
gonna go with my friend Connor, but then my mom told me it wasn't
a good idea. I want to let me go. Why is it because
just the way people have been talking, you know what I mean? She
didn't want there like someone to be pissed off, and like she starts on
seeing during her knowing her weight, just like they had done with Seth.
Detectives eventually transitioned into a line of questioning about Jesse's whereabouts on the day that
Amanda was killed. According to Jesse, he was home most of the day
and only left his house to pick up his paycheck from friendlies. You said
your parents were out of town, right, Yeah, they're on the Connecticut
River. Did you stay home all day? Also? The long time I
really left was to go to the friendlies. So you took the collo psychiloside
to the friendlies to get your check? Correct, then you went straight home
on the day that Amanda was killed. Jesse's parents were out of town,
which left very few people to vouch for his whereabouts, and after doing a
little digging into his story, the police learned that Jesse hadn't really been entirely
truthful about where he had gone that day. Jesse, we interviewed you twice,
ord, you weren't completely truthful as correct. A few days after Jesse's
first interviews with detectives, Jesse returned to the interrogation room for a third and
final interview. During this interrogation, Jesse came clean and admitted that he had
been lying all along. In late August and early September of twenty eleven,
twenty one year old Jesse Columbia was questioned several times by Chickapee, Massachusetts homicide
detectives about the brutal murder of Jesse's co worker and ex fling, twenty year
old Amanda Plas. Amanda was stabbed to death in the kitchen of her apartment,
and leading up to her death, Jesse had demonstrated in more ways than
one, and he was upset with Amanda because she clearly didn't want to pursue
a relationship with him. In fact, she had even started dating someone else,
and Jesse learned about this new relationship on Facebook just days before Amanda was
killed. During his first two police interviews, Jesse claimed that on the day
of Amanda's murder, he was at home and only left his house once to
pick up his paycheck. But during his third interview, Jesse admitted that he
hadn't entirely been honest about his whereabouts that day. There was a reason why
you weren't truthful was and I was just scared because I told you guys that
I didn't drive my car, and then when we got into the story,
I remembered it took my cart of general. I didn't want to go back
my word. I was scared. In his new and revised version of where
he was on the day of the murder, Jesse told police that he not
only went to his job to pick up his paycheck, but that he also
went to a liquor store to cash that paycheck. On its face, this
seemed like a pointless and frankly pretty stupid thing to lie about, But there
was a reason that Jesse had kept this information from police. So what did
you do? With that and went back home and then took by a couple
of minutes later took my car. I am this kid. Fat Boy was
Fat Boy's real name, totally honest. I do not know why you meeting
him? Huh why you meeting him? I gotta pill. Jesse claimed that
when Amanda was murdered, he was busy cashing his paycheck so that he could
meet up with his drug dealer to buy drugs. He also claim that after
he purchased those drugs, he went home and got high. At this point
in the investigation, the police had a pretty good idea of the exact hour
that Amanda was killed. After Amanda's new boyfriend Seth called Amanda to let her
know that he would be working late and wouldn't be able to drive Amanda to
her job, Amanda phoned her friend Mercedes, and Mercedes agreed to give her
a lift. About an hour or so later, at four PM, one
of Amanda's neighbors saw Amanda outside her apartment getting her mail. Then, at
five pm, Mercedes arrived at the apartment to drive Amanda to work, but
Amanda never came outside, and after honking her horn and waiting for about fifteen
minutes, Mercedes simply drove away. This chain of events told the police that
Amanda must have been killed between four and five pm that day. The surveillance
camera at the liquor store where Jesse cashed his paycheck captured Jesse doing exactly what
he said he did. At this time, there was simply no way that
Jesse could have killed Amanda because he wasn't anywhere near her apartment when she died.
Even though Jesse had a strong motive for murder, he was in the
clear. This, of course, was good news for him, but bad
news for detectives. While they still had a long list of potential suspects,
all their evidence was circumstantial and certainly not enough to levy charges against anyone.
With nowhere else to turn and seemingly no one left to interview, the Amanda
Plas murder investigation went cold, and it remained cold for two years. Over
the course of those two years, some occasional tips filtered into the Chickapee Police
department, one of which was the bizarre nine one one call that you heard
at the start of the show. The police recorded, would I get in
trouble for turning over a friend? Okay? What's the crime that was committed?
They said they killed somebody a couple of years ago, and then once
she turned them down because he trying to get into it with her, he's
gotten mavin chapter the girl. What did you say? In her name?
One Amanda? Unfortunately, this nine one one call, along with all the
other tips that the police received, turned out to be bogus dead ends.
Amanda's killer had seemingly gotten away with murder, But in late twenty thirteen,
the lead detective in this case sat down to review it again, and that
file included crime scene photos. When the detective looked over the photographs, some
thing stood out at him and he was once again reminded of the handwritten words
on Amanda's whiteboard. A single sentence was haphazardly written next to Amanda's handwritten doodles.
It read, Dennis was here eight eleven eleven. Twenty two year old
Dennis Rosa Roman was Amanda's pot dealer, and with nowhere else to turn and
nothing to lose, the detective decided to track Dennis down. The detective learned
that shortly after Amanda's death, Dennis relocated to a neighboring town and police caught
up with him just outside his new home. When detectives approached Dennis and started
asking questions about Amanda, Dennis appeared nervous and said that he was too busy
to talk. The cops let him go, but not before giving him their
contact and though a few days later, Dennis called the detective in a panic
and explained that he had something very important to tell police. You say,
you really need to talk to the day. Yeah, like seriously, the
day that this all happened. What happened that day? I went, I
brought her some Wayne she'd call you dating. Yeah, she called me that
day and she called me. She said, yo, he need me a
dime bag and want to her house. Stopped off Harryson guy arguing with her
something about money. So you heard this coming from Manda's apartment. Like I
was just I was just hitting. I was just hitting the third floor and
a horse and I'm like, I was own my ear and I'm like,
okay, I'm listening to this guys like I want my money. I didn't
needed this ship for no reason. After coming in for an interview, Dennis
told police that he went to Amanda's apartment on the day of the murder to
drop off some weed. And when he got to her door, you could
hear a man's voice, presumably yelling at Amanda to die. Open the door,
because bay, so this is the back door, the bad door.
Yeah, and I'm like, whereas Amanda. So he's inside, she's busy
right now. He didn't let you go in. He didn't. I didn't
even I never stepped in her house. He didn't. He just said,
yo, he had that's it. And I went about my way. Okay,
whatever, I go home about it. According to Dennis, he was
never able to meet up with Amanda that day. Instead, when he knocked
on the door, an angry man confronted him and, in so many words,
told Dennis to get lost. If Dennis's story was true, and that's
a pretty big if, but if it was true, why was Dennis only
coming forward with this information now he knew that Amanda had been murdered, So
why wait two years to give police this crucial information? Do you say it?
I thought when we first came, or you were saying he scared because
the other day when when you I mean, I was you saw the guy?
You saw the guy too? Hum? Yeah, walking on the street
and I feel a black Headilay Hedilac, and the guys are driving next to
me like he's just had a real slow like okay, And I'd see the
guy in Chickabee, I see him in Sprinklo shelter, seeing him in West
on the bus routes, and I don't know what to do, guys,
but just terrified for my life. Dennis claimed that the man he saw at
Amanda's apartment on the day of the murder was stalking him, and out of
fear for his life, Dennis decided to keep his mouth shut. While they
never outright said it during the interview, it was pretty obvious that the detectives
weren't buying Dennis's story, and they clearly suspected that Dennis was the killer.
If you remember, one of the key pieces of evidence from the crime scene
was a bloody shoeprint that was found next to Amanda's body. The killer was
either a woman that wore a size nine or a man that wore a size
seven. So far, none of the suspects that police interviewed matched the size
of that shoeprint. That is, until they interviewed little Foot Dennis. Those
speakers and here I'd be interested in just taking the picture of it, just
to show you a suicide. Sure enough, Dennis wore a size seven and
was a match for the bloody shoeprint next to Amanda's body. A few days
after Dennis was first interviewed, the police brought him in for another round of
questioning, and they told Dennis that they were sure he was inside Amanda's apartment
on the day of the murder. When confronted with this accusation, Dennis changed
his story. You're not lure many hard, Yes, yep, yes,
and what half is it? I hear a bunch of screaming, and I
hear me boy, I heard her voice. Yes, I heard her voice.
Yes, what was she saying? Stop? Stop? Stop? Stop?
This isn't ready stop stop. So then I barged in. So you
he didn't come to the door. You actually went inside. I went inside.
I barged. It was the door open, the door was unlocked.
In his new version of events, Dennis explained that he barged into Amanda's apartment
after hearing Amanda screaming. After he was inside, Dennis claimed that he came
upon a violent struggle between Amanda and her killer. So now they're in a
kitchen. What do you see when you get to the kitchen? I see
the guy on top of her. The guy was on top of her.
Well you say he was on top of her? Who was she at?
She was in the floor? Was she face up? Face down? Face
up looking at him? So? Now what do you? What do you?
I mean, he's on top of her while I run over there and
I try to separate him, and she's trying to like tussle between me and
him, and the guy shoves the shit out of me. She gets up
and then the guy pulls out the knife on me. So he's got the
knife out. Yeah, what are you doing? I'm fucking tussling with the
guy and she's trying to get the knife out of his hand, and he's
just like thrusting it, thrusting it and thrusting it forward towards me, and
I'm like trying to back up and shit, and I try to like grab
Amanda, and I couldn't grab her, and he just like tossed her and
she like knocked out. She's just went unconscious the way he tossed her,
but she wouldn't bla blank. And after that, meaning him were tussling and
the guy punches me in the fucking jaw, and I fucking run out the
door. Dennis claimed that after this encounter with Amanda's killer, Dennis took off
running and after escaping the apartment, he ran past a nearby park to safety.
But there was of course a problem with his story. Honestly, I'm
doing real honest with you. I don't know anything else, no more nor
less. It's actually a problem because you're not being honest. He's still not
telling us about truth. I'm telling you everything. No you're not. I've
told you everything. I'm sorry. You may say no, you're not.
You're not. You're not listening to listen number and I told you we know
things you don't know. We know there's more. Okay, there's a video
right there on the corner, Okay, facing on that street, and I've
watched that video, and no one goes running down the street on that side
of the road and cutting across to the park. We've watched it. So
it's another part of your story that's not true. You're not telling us the
truth. There are several times throughout his interview that Dennis has called out for
his obvious and blatant lies, and each time this happened, Dennis changed his
story to match the evidence that he was confronted with. By the end,
Dennis's story had changed so much that he actually claimed to have gone to Amanda's
apartment with Amanda's killer, which is probably true if you want to get really
technical about it, because he was Amanda's killer. So the guy didn't do
it. You did it because he owed you money for drugs? Is that
what happened? Oh? I didn't kill her? Started to stead, Okay,
so what happened? I mean, we're going down and dealer went to
her house? What Mike Geiler went to her house? You're a dealer went
to her house? Yeah, you're a dealer, Mike dealer. Did you
go there with you? Yes? Okay, tell me what happened here.
He's just like, yo, where she lives? I told her where she
lived, and he's like, yo, you're coming with me. I don't
know the fuck what you say? Why did you go to the house?
Because he wanted to know where it was and he you fucking was threatening me
all week. He was threatening you all week? Why just to get his
money back? And he had another bundle of lies and bullshit. Dennis told
police that he brought his drug dealer to Amanda's apartment and when they went inside,
Dennis witnessed the murder. He knocks on the door and he's like,
yo, answered the door, and she answered the door. He pushed her
and so she answered the door. Yeah, he pushes her in, pushed
her in the house, and I'm like, yo, why are you pushing
her? And he was like no, I want my fucking money. I
don't care what you say, like you're gonna pay for this or she is
mo sometimes pocket just started poking her. He pulled something in his pocket and
just started poking her. Did you see what it was? In the night?
And he started poking up? What? She standing up? Yeah?
What do you do? Then? I'm like, yo, why are you
doing this. I'm gonna get you your money, like you don't have to
go to this extent. He's like, no, fuck this, I don't
care. This is my money. I worked for this ship. According to
Dentist, he simply stood by and watched as his drug dealer brutally stabbed the
life out of Amanda. Keep going and going and going and going. She
continuously stabbing her, And I'm like, what was he stabbing her at the
stomach, fucking chest. I guess was she fighting? She was fighting?
So did she fall at some point after everything? I guess when you left
her? What position was she in, sprawled out on the floor. Did
you see the stab wounds in her? Yeah? You see him out of
blood. She was dying. I could. I could tell she was dying.
I could hear like air coming from her throw. I've just seen her
gasping for air, just like he just leaned on the floor trying to grass
for air. If Dennis's story was true, which again, I mean,
come on, we all know it's not. But if it was true,
Dennis would have to give the detectives a name. He would have to tell
them who this drug dealer was. Shockingly, this wasn't something Dennis was willing
to do. This guy that was with you that you took giving his name,
I'm sorry, Like you guys wanted his name, I'm not giving his
name. You guys can charge him for the ships. I'm already being charged
for this shit. So I'm being real honest with you. I don't know
what else to tell you. Friend, for my life, you know what
I'm saying. Dennis claimed that he wasn't willing to give up the killer's name
because he feared that the guy would come after him. Yet Dennis was more
than willing to tell police what the killer looked like, what cars he drove,
and where to find him is a way. Yeah, it's my dealer,
I know, I know easier opinion. That's about it is that you
drive. Yeah, that black Kindilaca mean sign Ultima book color. He's not
ultimate Silvern sign green to not run TV projects, you can find them rightfully.
So the cops weren't buying Dennis's story, But no matter how much they
pressed him, Dennis maintained that he did not kill Amanda Plas. Every single
conversation that we've had with you, it's changed, and you're still not telling
us the whole truth. You're not done. I don't believe that there's another
person there. You want to prove it, you're gonna need You're gonna need
to say the name, because I don't believe there's another person there. It's
just another one in a string of miss truth that you told us all the
way along. There's no reason for me to believe you. All the things
that you told us so far, all the different things we're not true.
It's time to come clean. Dennis. This is it right now, right
here. Let me ask you this. You kill her because she old your
money, didn't kill her? I'm asking I didn't kill her. Once again,
I wouldn't stop to that level. Following his police interview, Dennis was
booked and charged with first degree murder. It took a while for Dennis's case
to go to trial, but in June of twenty sixteen, five years after
Amanda was killed, the jury was finally able to hear the case. That
Friday afternoon, when miss class was getting ready to go to work with friends.
I'm a morial driving cheat. She had to be to work for five
when the defendant came into her apartment while she was getting ready and stabbed her
six times. Her face was cut and her throat was cut. In the
end, and after only five hours of jury deliberation, Dennis rosa Roman was
convicted of first degree murder. As a custom, before Dennis was sentenced,
Amanda's family provided the court with impact statements. He is not here begins.
There is no amount of time that will ever bring me on the back.
I will have endless ears of not knowing who she could become by beautiful to
her, will never have a chance to put her face to the sun and
humans more and lead. I would like to ask court sentence possible. The
request that Amanda's mom made the court was granted and Dennis rosa Roman was sentenced
to life in prison with no chance of parole. Given that Dennis never confessed,
there is that lingering question why did he do it? Well, we
don't know for sure and will likely never know for sure. There is a
pretty solid theory about the motive. About a week before Amanda was killed,
her apartment had been broken into and someone stole her weed. Amanda told her
friends that she suspected Dennis was the thief, and she was probably right.
On the day of the murder, Dennis likely assumed that Amanda wasn't home and
broke into her apartment to steal her weed again. But Amanda was home and
probably confronted Dennis in her kitchen. From there, a violent struggle broke out.
Amanda fought for her life, but sadly, Dennis got the best of
her and stabbed her to death. Imagine killing someone for weed. Following Amanda's
brutal murder, her family spent several years trying to get a new law passed
in her name. When the police were first called to the crime scene,
one of the first responders took photos of Amanda's dead body and shared them with
his buddies. These grewesome photos eventually surfaced online, and this new law,
dubbed Amanda's Law, would ideally deter first responders from sharing crime scene photos in
the future. It's coming up on the ten year anniversary of the murder of
Amanda Plaz and her family is still fighting to have a law with her name.
When it passed, it would prevent first responders trum taking and chairing on
authorized photos of a crime scene, which is exactly what happened to Amanda.
This is not a law that you would think would need to be set in
place, but here we are. We need to actually tell people that they
can't do this, and we need to make sure that there's a consequence,
because those officers really didn't receive a consequence. In August of twenty twenty two,
more than ten years after the murder, Amanda's Law was finally signed into
law by the Massachusetts state governor, making it illegal for first responders to take
and share unauthorized photographs of a crime scene. I guess you could say that
some good news came out of this horrific tragedy, but it sure feels like
a very small gain when you consider what was lost. By all accounts,
Amanda was a vibrant, caring, and talented young woman with a bright future.
Sadly, her life was cut short because some asshole wanted free weed.
Another takeaway from this case is that it's so important for homicide detectives to do
their due diligence. Amanda's boyfriend Seth or her ex boyfriend Jesse could have easily
been charged with murder if even the smallest piece of circumstantial evidence placed them at
Amanda's apartment when she was killed. Had these detectives not thoroughly investigated every aspect
of this crime, an innocent young man might be sitting in prison right now
while a killer roamed free, walking the streets looking for another victim. When
it comes to murder investigations, there is so much at stake, and it's
usually best to put assumptions aside and let the evidence speak for itself, because
the reality is, it's not always the husband, and it's not always the
boyfriend. Well that's going to do it. Thank you so much for joining
us. We hope even enjoyed it. If you have consider joining plus Sword
and Scale dot com slash plus, We'll see you next time. Until then,
let stay Sack Sword and Scale team. This is Amanda from Denver.
I wanted to tell you guys, you are so incredibly freaking awesome. I
absolutely loved listening to your podcasts. I've actually been if you guys at the
beginning and love, love love it. I love how you guys have to
become this awesome independent group and do your own sake, and I absolutely love
it. I also want to tell you you're writing it's better than any crime
story show out there. You could Daylight twenty twenty sixteen minutes all of those
shapes. You guys are way better than all of those. And I freaking
love Nightmares. You guys, you just keep like raising the bar for everyone
else, but this ring, nobody else is going to catch up, which
it's how it should be. Anyway, you guys are amazing. Thank you
so much, Love and Nightmares. I actually increased my donation to be higher
tier for you guys. Get jell to service, so keep it up,
keep up the good work, stay stage. That's fast holes for life.