WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:14.640 You are listening to Redefining Energy. Your co hosts from Berlin Gerard Reid and 2 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:21.920 from London Laurent Sagalam. Today I'm redefining energy. We're going to talk about 3 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:27.120 subc cables around and it has become a massive industry. But trust the word 4 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:32.479 from our partner, Redefining Energy sponsored by a Mundi, the leading European asset 5 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:37.240 manager, your trusted partner to accelerate the transition to a low carbon future. 6 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:43.640 Leading asset manager based on the IPE ranking. Investing involves risk. Consult your 7 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:49.399 financial advisor. Yes, child, it is turning into the backbone of global 8 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:53.320 grid. But I want to warn our listeners because we have a super guest, 9 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:57.119 but the audio quality sometimes is not very good. And the reason is 10 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:04.799 while we were recording your on the super yacht with your Holigax friends of the 11 00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:11.159 Greek island of Corfu. I blame Elon Musk we actually had a power issue 12 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:19.480 and we couldn't get through the starting. Yeah, Microsoft teams, I'm sorry 13 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:23.000 about that, Laura really love Yeah. So to our listeners. Sorry and 14 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:27.840 always get the comment that Chad is always recording from inside his washing machine. 15 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.400 It's true, It's true. It wasn't machine in the time. To go 16 00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:37.920 back to the topic interconnectors, well, it's not a new technology for being 17 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:42.280 started in the sixties or connecting little islands, but now we're talking about hundreds 18 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:49.319 of kilometers and it's changing totally the landscape in an epoch where there's a lot 19 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:53.400 of viability regarding the sun and the wind. And guess what, now we 20 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:59.120 have interconnector which are longer than weather patterns. I want to add something else 21 00:01:59.319 --> 00:02:04.000 around which reflected on I mean, what you do is when you interconnect, 22 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:08.719 what you're actually doing is you're connecting countries together and you're making them interdependent. 23 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:14.680 And this is really really interesting. So what you're doing is cooperation between friends. 24 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.719 So that what that means is Germany is reliant in Norway, Norway is 25 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.159 reliant in Ireland because they're all connected together. That's me is really one of 26 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.800 the other positive things in and around interconnectors and subse cables. And they just 27 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:30.360 happened to be in Europe because we've got the North Sea and I received our 28 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:36.639 countries are actually quite connected together and the depths are not that deep. So 29 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:40.919 our guest is rebec I said, she's the managing director of the interconnector at 30 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:46.360 National Grid. You remember web Game of Thrones and Kelly see what is the 31 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:52.120 Mother of Dragons? And I can say, because she's the mother of interconnectors, 32 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:58.360 Well, let's bring around the show. Rebekah, welcome to the show. 33 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.159 Thank you for having me and listen. Maybe let me just pick off 34 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:05.960 straight away with an old question, which is really why do we build into 35 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.719 collect Thanks Jared first of all, just to help frame the way I look 36 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:17.000 it into connectors. I find it quite frustrating that we separate interconnectors from the 37 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:23.479 grid. Asking why do we build interconnectors is almost like asking why we extended 38 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:29.639 the grid to connect to other countries. It's just not indigenous. Particularly at 39 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:35.840 the moment with the renewable energy policies that we have in the UK, across 40 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:40.680 Europe, etc. There's a huge amount of focus on connecting generation and on 41 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.639 transporting the generation from the demand, which typically tends to be far away from 42 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:52.759 where it's consumed, but there's not so much focus on the variability of the 43 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:59.560 whole system and the flexibility the interconnectors by building that grid to connect to other 44 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:06.960 countries can provide. Ultimately, I see interconnectors as flexible tools that provide security 45 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:15.800 of supply benefits and huge flexibility benefits, particularly complementmentary to variable renewable generation. 46 00:04:15.519 --> 00:04:21.120 Rivic for audience, how many do you manage? We manage six interconnectors at 47 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:29.160 national grade seven point eight gigawatts of capacity. Have two to France, one 48 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:33.439 to Norway, one to Belgium, one to Netherlands. And Viking Link, 49 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.399 which we've just built, is the first connection between the UK and Denmark. 50 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.839 Vigining is pretty phenomenal because it's I think the longest in the world seven hundred 51 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:49.079 and fifty kulometers, a holder of a Guinness World Record now Laurent so it's 52 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:54.920 official. Super cool. Can you explain a bit of genesis you how somebody 53 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.680 in an office one day decides to say, oh, it's a good idea 54 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:03.279 to connect England and and Denmark and then kind of run us went quickly through 55 00:05:03.319 --> 00:05:10.920 the old process. I believe the first kind of formal Viking Link meetings were 56 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:15.560 around thirteen years ago. That tells you how long it takes for the concept 57 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:21.040 to evolve into the physical asset that we now have on the system today. 58 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:29.399 Where it all starts is analysis looking at the energy systems of the respective countries 59 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.959 and seeing where there could be an complementary opportunity that benefits both energy systems, 60 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:42.000 ultimately benefiting UK consumers and Danish consumers, to create the physical link between the 61 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:46.600 energy systems. Now, the Danish energy system has a different energy mix to 62 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:53.360 the UK, much more dominated by wind, heavier slug of biomass, and 63 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:58.560 of course very different weather patterns, different time zone that our time difference in 64 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.959 the continent makes a big differ. The morning peak is different, the evening 65 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:08.279 peak is different. And by creating a physical link, you can optimize between 66 00:06:08.360 --> 00:06:14.360 those demand patterns, as trading speak, arbitrage opportunities because scarcity on the systems, 67 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:20.399 scarcity being the margin between supply of generation and demand for generation is different 68 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:26.560 at different times of the day in different energy systems. So I imagine that 69 00:06:26.639 --> 00:06:31.560 the kind of fundamental market analysis was performed and the strategic teams of both countries 70 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:38.160 and the policy teams of both countries decided to meet and to start looking at 71 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:43.040 how a project could be formed, what capacity the interconnector of course, what 72 00:06:43.160 --> 00:06:47.680 technology where it could be cited, and they take it from there. Rebecca, 73 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:50.519 can I ask, then you're talking a little bit about the economics so 74 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.560 I can imagine you're striking your teams of down they look at us. Then 75 00:06:54.600 --> 00:07:02.040 what happens. Whilst we consider interconnectors to be not as regulated as the onshore 76 00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:08.360 grid in the UK, most of them are underpinned by regulatory schemes and I 77 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:14.920 guess this provides the investor with some level of comfort of the minimal levels of 78 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:18.240 return, particularly if they are awarded what's called a cap and floor scheme. 79 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:24.199 So if we just looked at this as a pure merchant investor, you would 80 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:30.279 be taking the cape of the asset investment and the small layers of ops that 81 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:33.279 it takes once it's up and running, and you'd be putting it against many 82 00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:39.360 different views of the world that manifest in different price scenarios. I guess important 83 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:43.920 to say that that's not just driven by what the oil price or gas price 84 00:07:43.959 --> 00:07:46.160 and then power price is doing, but what's going to happen to policy like 85 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:51.800 carbon policy that can affect the power prices of different countries, what the renewables 86 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.839 build out is going to be, and how that impacts the module price, 87 00:07:55.920 --> 00:08:01.399 etc. So you'll have a range of scenarios that will manifest in this arbitrage 88 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.279 opportunity ultimately where the price spread is going to be and the value of the 89 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:11.839 capacity of the interconnector, but of course there'll be risk. Typically transmission system 90 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:16.519 operators want to invest in assets under regulated schemes than in the UK. What 91 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:20.639 we have interconnectors is a cap and floor scheme as I mentioned, and we 92 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:26.399 will look at the overall cost benefit analysis of the project and we will put 93 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.959 it forward to off GEM to see if it's worthy of being awarded such a 94 00:08:30.959 --> 00:08:37.799 scheme. And typically there are huge benefits across the twenty five year timeframe for 95 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.240 a cap and floor scheme in the UK for any of the projects that National 96 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.320 Grid is put through. And we can see from the last couple of years 97 00:08:46.799 --> 00:08:50.720 the fact that interconnectors have or many of them earned above the cap, so 98 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:56.960 that means they're actually paying money back to consumers rather than costing consumers anything. 99 00:08:56.720 --> 00:09:01.519 They have the potential to work well for both the investor and the regulator. 100 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.559 There's the famous exception of the le clink who didn't choose the cap and floor, 101 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.320 and everybody told your a tunnel that they were crazy to put the cable, 102 00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:15.279 and the best consultant on this planet told them, you'll never see your 103 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:18.159 money back in twenty years and guess what they saw it back in twenty months. 104 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:24.039 Because something you cannot model is when there's a real problem on a grid, 105 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:30.279 real meaning crisis that could bring the grid down, the interconnector is the 106 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:31.840 last line of defense, and of course you need to pay for this. 107 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.919 That's very difficult to put in an Excel sheet, but we can assume that 108 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.879 over twenty five years, somehow sometimes the worst can happen. And that's where 109 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:46.000 also the beauty of interconnector, which is hard to put in a model, 110 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.080 It protects the grid, it reinforced the grid. Yeah, you're absolutely right, 111 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.799 and joined National Grade at the end of January twenty twenty two. Been 112 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:01.399 in energy for decades looking at markets do things. Never seen the level of 113 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:07.399 volatility, the huge amount of price spreads, and also during that year we 114 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:13.159 saw some other pretty big and unforeseen issues such as nuclear availability constraints and much 115 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:18.159 lower hydro reserves in Norway also hit the markets, which has exacerbated that situation. 116 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.000 But you can't bank on that volatility. It could take a long time 117 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:26.120 to transpire as you know. As you said, it's very difficult to model. 118 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.519 And also we need to remember that KAPEC has really gone out. So 119 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.279 the cost of building these assets is now a different level to what it was 120 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:39.279 a few years ago, even because of the supply chain squeeze, inflation, 121 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:43.320 et cetera, et cetera. So even to get these projects going, once 122 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.399 you have got past the stage of right, I've done my analysis, it's 123 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:50.240 a great opportunity here. I know what the cost will be, I've got 124 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.480 my regulatory deal. I then have to start spending money. I mean, 125 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.679 these assets only start paying back when you've built them and they're operating, and 126 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:05.120 even doing the kind of seed and pre seed work like seabed surveys is getting 127 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.240 pretty expensive. So you've got to be really sure that the whole thing lines 128 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.679 up and that you're able to contract at your costs, which I'd say is 129 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:20.600 becoming a more difficult challenge for interconnected developers. All decides on the power clows 130 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:26.159 and also then said that it's an auction that takes place. How does it 131 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:30.159 work and does work? How do you decide that whether to import to export? 132 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:33.159 Is it you, as a great operator to make that decision rather than 133 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:39.799 somebody else. Ultimately it's the customers who decide which way the power flows. 134 00:11:39.399 --> 00:11:43.759 And this is somewhat determined by the markets. In the longer term, we 135 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:50.519 will auction out capacity to customers for both directions, and we'll do that a 136 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:52.159 couple of years ahead, a year ahead, a quarter ahead, a month 137 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:56.600 head right to the day head stage, and then at the dayhead stage, 138 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:00.960 the customers will nominate finally which way it goes, or they may choose not 139 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.240 to nominate at all if the spread is negligible or it's not worth doing. 140 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:09.799 Ultimately, our job as the asset owner is to make sure you have an 141 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:16.759 available, reliable asset that customers can use to their advantage. I guess the 142 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:24.080 exception to that is when there are market circumstances that involve the intervention of the 143 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:30.559 system operator on either side. And what we sometimes see intra day is the 144 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:35.519 system operator of the UK, for example, trade against the market, so 145 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.039 they will buy a customer out of their position. They will trade against the 146 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.919 flow of the market. The UK could be the more expensive price but still 147 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.399 be exporting, for example, because there's other issues going on in other parts 148 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:52.240 of the grid. But it's certainly not the interconnector owner that determines the flow. 149 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:58.919 Our job is to provide an available and reliable asset. Can I ask, 150 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.440 when you look at the good operator look energy security, could they include 151 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:09.480 interconnecting them as part of what they see is just energy security per particular country 152 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:15.799 or the the excluded. When the grid operator looks at energy security, if 153 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.120 we take for example, the winter outlook which is published every year in the 154 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.440 UK by the system operator, they will make assumptions about all the plant and 155 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:28.679 all the assets that are running on the system, and interconnectors do feature in 156 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:35.960 there. They won't take the full fleet one hundred percent availability in their scenario, 157 00:13:37.519 --> 00:13:41.840 They'll assume a derated are kind of a lesser availability that will apply risk 158 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:48.320 factor to it. But certainly from memory on the peak of the coldest day 159 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:52.399 that they were forecasting in their modeling last winter, they assumed around about four 160 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:58.080 gig wats of interconnector imports. So they are certainly relied on by the system 161 00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:03.799 operator for security of supply, and indeed they have proven to be reliable in 162 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:09.399 such cases. I mean, we've not yet had a capacity market event in 163 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:15.000 the UK, but we've had plenty of near events and scarce days, and 164 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:20.639 our experiences that the operating protocols which underpins the interconnectors in the customer and the 165 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:26.840 system operator. Coordination collaboration across Europe works well if you let people in the 166 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:30.519 control rooms do their job. Sorry it's a bit my obsession, but I'm 167 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.360 going to go back to Viking Link. Because you've gone all your analysis, 168 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:39.240 you get a cap and floor agreed by of GEMA, which means of GEM 169 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:46.840 agrees against the cap X that you present to ensure that the revenues that you're 170 00:14:46.840 --> 00:14:50.720 going to get are inside the band. So if you are below the floor, 171 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.120 they will top it up. But if you pass the gap, you 172 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.639 need to give the money back. You know, it creates a code up. 173 00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:01.240 Probably it's not very exciting as an infrastructure in the stop, but it's 174 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:07.120 it's done good in those times of valiatility to get a return within a band. 175 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:13.240 Okay, so you get all those truckloads of paper analysis, contracts, 176 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.720 agreement. At that time, you already have chosen your suppliers, your IPC. 177 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:24.600 How do you choose I don't know, between a Prismian and kat next 178 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.240 sence for the cable who's going to be How does that would supply chain put 179 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:35.120 itself together? Typically, what's happened in the past is that there's been three 180 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.159 stages of submission to off GERM regarding the costs of the revenue of the project. 181 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:43.440 The first one is called the initial projects assessment. This is where you 182 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:48.399 are doing your kind of initial bits to get a cap and flow. At 183 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:50.840 that point off Gen will come back to you and say the hither you know 184 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:56.360 you're being awarded Warner you're not. You then have a couple of years to 185 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:00.000 work with your supply chain to refine casts, and you need to submit what's 186 00:16:00.039 --> 00:16:04.159 called a final project assessment for off Gen to review, which is kind of 187 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:10.639 the final stamp on it. And then the last round of refining custom revenues 188 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:12.960 is something called a post construction review. This is when you're built it. 189 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:17.279 In fact, I think we've just submitted vikings now, so this is we 190 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:19.399 did what we said we did. This is their basis. There might be 191 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:23.519 some small tweaks here, we go. We know we're not to operation the 192 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:30.120 national grid. Projects typically lined up supply chain and got ready for something like 193 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:34.159 a FID in that middle stage, that final project assessment, and at that 194 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.960 point, if you refine your cast, you put your supply chain, you've 195 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:42.600 updated your market scenarios and you're ready to go. However, the world's change, 196 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:48.039 and we know that we need to make commitments to our supply chain much 197 00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:52.879 more earlier to book factory slots to ensure that they've got capacity to help them 198 00:16:52.080 --> 00:17:00.320 invest to deliver to our capacity requirements. And we are looking at the apply 199 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.839 chain for our new projects lion Link which is our oshore hybrid asset to the 200 00:17:03.920 --> 00:17:11.799 Netherlands, and Nautilus which is as hybrid asset to the Belgian Energy Island much 201 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.279 earlier on. So we're looking at it now and we're doing just the initial 202 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:21.720 project assessment, and we will have to make commitments to those supply chains much 203 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.960 earlier on in order to proceed with the project in a reasonable time frame. 204 00:17:26.359 --> 00:17:30.319 And this of course is just a feature of what's required with transmission build out 205 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:34.640 across the globe now and the pressure that our key supplies, the cable and 206 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:41.000 the converted supplies that you know are under. Let's say you built a cable 207 00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.160 every two years, which means you can rely a lot on the learnings you 208 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:49.640 did for the past one to the new one. So I guess your Lion 209 00:17:49.839 --> 00:17:56.319 King, sorry, lion something, Lion Link, sorry, your Lion Link. 210 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:02.359 We look a lot like your link, And of course your tweak, 211 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:04.880 you'll take the lessons and so on. But that's what I like a lot 212 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.920 within industry is that there's no revolution, but there is a permanent evolution and 213 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.000 probably the cables get a bit better all the time. Explain a bit that 214 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:22.039 industrial progress that you've seen over time. I think you're right that it starts 215 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:26.920 with the people and that being able to have that capability that worked on project, 216 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:30.880 and when the project's delivered, they go to the next one and the 217 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:37.119 next one, and that kind of learning capital being constantly invested has paid dividends 218 00:18:37.160 --> 00:18:40.839 to organizations like National Grade, that's for sure, and indeed to the industry 219 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:44.200 as a whole, because of course National Grip people pop up on all kinds 220 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:48.480 of other projects. We have seen a huge amount of evolution in converter and 221 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:56.319 in cable technology. We've seen different density of cables, different manufacturing techniques. 222 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:04.480 What I'd like to encourage is less focus on constant technology evolution and more on 223 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.359 giving our supply chain than the manufacturers of our supply chains and consistency so that 224 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:17.000 they can produce the volume that we need consistently. If we look and see 225 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:22.559 what's happened in the wind sector, many of the supply chain manufacturers have fallen 226 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.839 foul of this constant drive for technology innovation, for bigger turbines, et cetera, 227 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:32.680 et cetera. And where we are in transmission is whilst of course you 228 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:36.559 always need to develop engineering, you need to look for more efficient ways to 229 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.680 produce different components, we also need to standardize at a time where you have 230 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.119 such the volume of orders ahead of us as we do. So when I 231 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:51.480 speak to our cable manufacturers who are having to make absolutely enormous investments. If 232 00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:55.079 you have been to a cable factory of interest, have you seen what's required 233 00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:00.440 to produce these cables? I have, They're at amazing. Yeah, it's 234 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:06.799 just mind blowing the scale and just the intricacy and the complexity of the manufacturing 235 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:12.559 techniques. You can't introduce too much change too quickly into that, and so 236 00:20:14.079 --> 00:20:21.160 finding the balance as we go forward between innovation and between quality standardization is going 237 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.880 to be really key, Rebecca, I just following on that is not an 238 00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:30.200 easy thing to do, even that your supplier are pretty concentrated anyway, whether 239 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.400 you're looking at the transformer side or you're looking at the cable side, is 240 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:36.880 not just a matter of just getting them to sit down and sort of same 241 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:38.759 guy, this is what we need to do in terms of roll back for 242 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.559 the next decade. Yeah, but Joe, that was my question because I 243 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.240 wanted to talk about the tenet to Gigawat, which looks like it's turning into 244 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:52.599 the new with the current standout for a few years a piece, Rebecca, 245 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:57.839 because I think you know better than me. You're right that there's much more 246 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:02.559 with these huge frame works that have been launched to the market, and you 247 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:07.400 mentioned the tenet to Giggle what national grids it should be DC framework it is 248 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:14.000 in the market now as well. We need to support the suppliers with certainty 249 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:19.839 on the orders, on the technology and also really from a UK perspective, 250 00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:26.400 understand what we can do with the government to support investment in a more holistic 251 00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:30.839 industrial strategy to meet the needs of the network companies, not just interconnect. 252 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.759 It's not just national grids for the longer term. If you have a look 253 00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:37.559 and see what the build scenarios are going to be, not just you know, 254 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:41.359 people focus on up to twenty thirty, but there's far more that needs 255 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.920 to be done beyond twenty thirty. And you also consider that This goes beyond 256 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:52.279 cables, This goes beyond the primary OEMs that National Grid has worked with. 257 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.279 This goes to their second and third tier subcontractors. There's a whole industrial strategy, 258 00:21:57.400 --> 00:22:00.200 is the best way to think of it, behind this that will benefit 259 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.880 the UK. And if you also consider the moves that the US has made 260 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:10.359 in the IRA and the green deal that the EU is thinking, we need 261 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.200 to make sure that we're keeping pace with all of that. Rebecca, as 262 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.640 when you look into the future, would you give us your vision and view 263 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:22.960 of how you see interconnectivity growing? And also I'm asking also not just from 264 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.880 a European perspective, I'd also like to hear a global perspective. My prediction 265 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.880 of the energy system is that offshore wind is here to stay and here to 266 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.400 grow. It's well proven. I think certainly in the UK we're blessed with 267 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:42.279 geographical conditions that enable smart investment in meaningful our shore wind schemes. And I 268 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:49.200 think that it's clear that to complement this variability of oshore and do you need 269 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:56.079 other technologies flexible technologies of which interconnection is one of them. So we will 270 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:02.599 see growth in interconnection alongside growth in off wind and we'll see combination of assets. 271 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:08.279 So I mentioned our offshore hybrid asset projects earlier, which is essentially coordinated 272 00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:18.240 infrastructure between offshore wind transmission cables that are saving on the converter technology, saving 273 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:26.559 on landing points to coastal communities. And we need to understand the drive between 274 00:23:27.119 --> 00:23:36.400 having homegrown renewable energy which provides us with a certain level of independence from collaboration 275 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:41.000 and cooperation with neighboring energy systems. We might not be part of the European 276 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:47.319 Union, but was certainly part of the European energy system that benefit consumers and 277 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:53.400 that are far more cost effective than overbuilding the UK's energy system. Looking even 278 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:59.920 further out, and if we think about these projects like the Transatlantic cable or 279 00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:03.759 of exce Links cable to Morocco, I think it's fantastic that we have developers 280 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.759 in the market with this level of wonder and innovation and ambition. I think 281 00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:15.200 that that will push forward the boundaries of what interconnectors and transmission in general can 282 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:21.079 provide. It'll be interesting to see how they overcome the challenges with the geopolitical 283 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:26.000 contexts, the supply chain contracts, etc. But I'm all behind innovation in 284 00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:30.200 this sector. So yeah, I think it's an incredibly exciting place to be. 285 00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:41.160 We're going to America, Baby Reviga. It was such a treat to 286 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.880 have you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for 287 00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:48.920 having me, been great, Thank you very much. Jarg just have a 288 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:55.000 world mastery. She is the master of her own domain. Absolutely, absolutely, 289 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.440 that was a great conversation because No so agreed. Look, I don't 290 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.640 want to make but I can tell you if the energy transition has been a 291 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:11.039 success after forty years of conservative government, it's certainly more because you had guys 292 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:18.200 like Finton's slide at Esso or John Petty grew at National Grid or even Sonia 293 00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:23.400 two Weiga. Then so it's not the politician, it's really the operators of 294 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.680 the infrastructure we've managed to bring us to the success we've seen. Actually, 295 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:32.039 what you also you mentioned Sonya, I mean she's the head of MCU. 296 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.920 People probably won't know what that is, but that is the Grid Operators Association 297 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.880 in Europe where they all sit down and cooperate and greed plans going forward and 298 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:47.839 and so we can expand the grid in an economically efficient and effective way. 299 00:25:48.440 --> 00:25:52.559 So you're absolutely right. So that's why it goes back to cooperation, cooperation, 300 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:56.480 cooperation. Furthermore, and this is really a UK debate because there's been 301 00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:03.680 a lot of privatization way back when of certain monopolies and the bad example were 302 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:10.480 in the UK the water companies who have been rumpaged by their private equity owners 303 00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:15.440 and it's an absolute disaster. And National Grid is really the opposite. That 304 00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:21.359 company is wonderfully well managed. Ye're absolutely right. Yeah. Actually, it's 305 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:23.920 probably not not the occasional to talk about the benefits of being on a public 306 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.440 market versus a private market. But what's clear as National Grid I've done something 307 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.359 pretty amazing over that and they've been a front runner and everything. It's not 308 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.799 like if you just think of the use of batteries in the system and front 309 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:38.680 runners. Yeah. Plus they've invested in all the grid enhancing technologies, the 310 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:45.319 reconductorying, the dim line rating. And it's probably because it's a private company 311 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:52.920 that they've been more in the forefront of technology innovation. That's definitely true. 312 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:56.319 I contrasted with idiof No, I won't get down that road. Sorry, 313 00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:03.079 now you can say that Artie is decently well managed. Okay, so yeah, 314 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.039 don't do politics please, okay job. We thank Rebecca are the mother 315 00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.720 of interconnectors. Look, I know she's gonna blush, but she and other 316 00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:15.759 team these are ready super your people. Yeah, and we're going to America. 317 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:22.240 Baby. Sure, I'm my friend. We thank Amandy for supporting the 318 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:30.039 show and Joe I talked to you next week for her Thank you for listening 319 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.160 to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to rate the show and subscribe on Apple, 320 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.920 Podcast, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.