I'm Casey Tanner and I'm Camille Lewis. And this is safe word. Safe
word is sex therapy unhinged because instead of being a blank slate that's just here
to support you, we're telling you the details on our own sex lives,
relationships, identities, and more. This isn't sex and it's not therapy,
but we are sex therapists and what you hear today may excite you. Each
week we tackle the theme related to sex, relationships, gender, and more.
This week we're diving into the theme initiation M M an initiation station.
I don't know why I always I don't know. You gotta rhyme, you
can't help it. I always gotta rhyn I gotta throw in a little jingle,
A little jingle Jingle's just the sad theme song with I don't know whatever
comes to mind with my freestyling. This is the last episode of the season.
Can we do like an emotions check in? I feel like this season
was kind of long. Do you feel like it was? I feel like
it went by you know that saying like the days are long, but the
years are short. No. I feel like each episode I feel like we
are here for six hours, but then when I look back this season,
I'm like, oh, that went by kind of fast. I can't believe
we've done two seasons. I can't believe that we've done two seasons. Yeah,
yeah, we're tired. Yeah, we're tired. I'm happy to be
here, and I'm happy that I get to see you on these weeks.
I get to have multiple face to face as well. I know. Just
reminded me. Sometimes my clients will be like, how are you, and
I won't think very hard and I'll just be like, I'm exhausted, and
then I'll have to be like, but I really love being here. I'm
so happy to be here. I feel like that's what we just did.
But yeah, I think we get too. I was like, tired,
No, no, not, I'm tired before in my life. Yeah,
it feels wrong to admit that we're tired, but I mean we we're busy.
We got a lot going on, and you're sick right now and you
should probably not even be here sicken and denial though, Yeah, I'm gonna
work on because I have told myself that it doesn't that doesn't happen to me
anymore, like you grew out of it. Yeah, yeah, because I
got my tonsils out in my like mid to late twenties, and ever it
was literally life changing, and so I just I'm like, this doesn't affect
me anymore. I've never had COVID, you know of I am a super
I'm a superhuman. So yeah, it's really it's really that simple, kids,
Okay, in initiation? Should we should we go? There? I
love initiating. Do you do? Oh? I feel like I'm to learn
from you today. I love those episodes. I love initiating, especially like
in public when I'm interested in somebody, Like if I'm like, I'm very
quick to get eye contact. I'm very quick to be like, oh that's
cutie over there's cutie over there. I'm gonna like there, you will be
mine. So it's very I don't know if I told the story on this
podcast of my like my approach to somebody where I just is like do you
want to fuck? If you did, it's worth telling again. I was
out with somebody and it was supposed to be like a business lune. Oh
yeah, yeah, okay, all right, but tell it again, tell
it again, and tell us about initiating. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think that Like for me, it comes with my impulsive. Yeah,
I think impulsivity where I'm just like and impatience and I'm just like, if
they don't, if they don't do it, and then I never see them
again and the moment has passed, but it doesn't. It's very anxiety provoking
to me. Sometimes, um like I will feel the physical manifestations of anxiety.
I will feel my heart racing when I hear my voice it sounds like
it's shaking. Then I'll be like, you look, I don't know,
but like, I think that I came off super confident in that clearly it
worked said yes, it worked a charm, yes, yes, And but
I think like in general, like I feel like, yeah, I'm bold,
I'm really really bold. I don't I don't know. I was in
the Bay a couple of weekends ago and there was this girl and she was
our server at like this one restaurant and then happened to be bartending at the
at the bar the next night, and I was like, give me your
number. So I think initiation when it comes to all of these, like
I'm I'm as bold as fuck. I don't care. I'm quick to hit
somebody with a little wave, a little eye contact, a little linger a
little smirk. I'm like, I want you to give me lessons in the
I mean, I don't know what am I initiating these days. Yeah,
you know, but you you get initiate Friendship's true. I did have a
really oh this is kind of a sad story. I'll tell it and then
we can decide if we want to keep it. But I there was this
cat that was living outside of my house. Yeah, and I was working
with this like animal activist group, and they were helping me decide like is
this feral cat or is this a cat that's like lost, And they kind
of determined, like this isn't a feral cat, we should get it inside
and bring it to the beat whatever. So for a week I was just
trying to build trust with his cat. Finally got it inside and it died
two days later, and it was like in your house in my house and
found out that it had like advanced leukemia. Were both the animal, right,
that's your initiation rites people were like queer and cool, and I was
like, you're the only people that knew Sammy the cat, Like we have
to hang out and that's that is truly my form of initiating, Like whether
it's a date or a friendship or anything. I will sort of like it's
way less straightforward, it's way worse than yours. If I'm honest, like,
I will just make something up that that feels like something we have in
common. I guess that's probably not so bad. Um, that's not bad.
I'm like, I feel like I did I initiate with you, initiated
give me their information, email them right now, initiated with me. But
I was gonna do it anyway. It was just gonna take me well because
I had to come up with a whole story that, you know, that
would make sense. So I don't know. I guess I'm a little bit
more of a pisces that way. Could that be? Um? Yeah,
but I think lately initiating sexually, I don't like mal and I both I
think initiate pretty fifty fifty. And our form of initiation at this point is
pretty much one of two things. It's either should we have sex right now,
or it's like kissing that escalates into a very particular type of kissing that
we both know but have never talked about. Means like I want sex right
now, and so our forms of rejecting initiation are either like no, I
don't want to have sex right now, or like one person is leaning in
escalating the kiss and the other is like giving little pex and like then you
know, we stop, and then like ten minutes go by, and then
the person who like was trying to initiate is like feeling really sad and rejected,
and then we emotionally process what the experience that I know, and then
like the whole night we could have been having sex, but instead we're talking
about what it was like that you were kissing me this way and I was
not as into it, and you know, and then often we end up
having sex because maybe that conversation turns us on. I don't know, but
yeah, we're in a we're in a routine of either very straightforward or very
round about. Do you prefer when someone initiates sex with you or do you
prefer to initiate personally? I hate initiating. Yeah no, no, I'm
exact opposite of you. I love a strong initiation. The more clear it
is, the better, because I have I have contextual desire, but the
context that makes me desire somebody is a strong initiation. So it's like even
if I'm well, that makes it hard for mal I think, and for
any partner that I've had because because I am, like exist in a state
of usually not being turned on and it takes a strong initiation to get me
there. That's a huge risk that I ask my partners to take because they're
like sensing that I'm not turned on and they have to take that leap of
faith to like pull me into desire. It's interesting. Yeah, I haven't
figured it out fully. It's interesting because I like lean more submissive sexually,
but but you top from the bottom. I feel like you really tap from
the bottom. I think so too. That really uts that's hidden because I'm
all I'm like, I'm like, I DTF is my like state. My
HOMEO state is DTF. So it's like if somebody's trying to like just yeahones
are flying for real, I don't know. It's deep, it's real deep.
Yeah. I feel like most of like people that I've like been in
long term relationships with, they're like okay, and all my friends are like
and Camille still wants to have sex all the time, like years into my
relationships and are like, I don't know, that's that's magic. I love
that for you, and I learned from you. I learned from you.
Okay, should we talk about other people? Let's get it to get all
right? Oh, okay relatable. We schedule sex, and sometimes the starting
can be awkward. Tips for moving from appointment vibes to sexy. My answer
is probably going to be annoying. Do you ever feel that like this.
Do you feel like, because you're a therapist, you give therapisty answers to
things and they're annoying. Yes to your clients and to your friends and to
the world. Yes, yeah, okay, yeah with good because I'm like,
I feel like the appointment can be sexy. That's literally I feel like
it's kind of annoying. But I do feel like I think that because we
are taught that the only way that sex is sexy is if it's like this
spontaneous, nonverbal we just are on the same wavelength all the time. Thing
that this has been like constructed into making us feel like if we do schedule
sex, that it isn't as genuine as hot, as sexy, as real.
And I think that you can make your appointments like you could put role
play into them, like I don't know that's what's coming up for me.
I'm on a lot of cough medicine and right now wavelength you're on. I
love it. Yeah, but I'm like, you know, like you could
be like I feel like this would be a good teacher student type of thing
that you could do to spice it up and then be like, this is
like it's time for our appointment, like I will try it a sex appointment
or is it a doctor's up? Yeah? Yeah, exactly exactly, or
are you in trouble with the principle, Like I don't know, Like I
think that it's just like the more than that, you can start to normalize
that this is what happens and lots of relationships, short term, long term
and everything in between. You could put less pressure on yourself and then it
won't you won't feel so internalize judgment over the way that sex happens in your
relationship. I love it. Mic drop Yeah, I I'm just narrating what
you're doing. You dropped, you dropped the mic. Yeah. I feel
like it doesn't have to be like we show up in the bedroom, we
get on our bed, each of us around our knees, looking at each
other, and then one of us reaches out. Although you know, it's
like a notebook style sex. That could work. Yeah, that could work.
I love it though. I love it that like, just because it's
an appointment for sex doesn't mean it has to be an appointment for a certain
kind of sex. I also was going to give a very annoying, different
therapistic answer, which is like, what if starting is awkward, that's okay,
yep. Equally as annoying YEA, thank you, because I do think
that starting sex and long term relationships can very often be awkward. Whenever you
are starting an embodied activity, it makes sense that your body needs a second
to get back in the room sex For most people from bodied activity, the
body needs a warm up. So if you don't want to do the warm
up when you meet each other at the appointment, do it with yourself in
another room first, right, Like you could say a little bit a little
solo sex an essential shower. If you don't want to warm up together,
you're gonna have to warm up somewhere else. Next person says, for women,
love and women, how to initiate in a way that isn't ikey in
this is het man way. M hmm. Interesting, This is a layered
question. Yes, should we start by I mean yeah, no, hear
you? No, No, go ahead. I was gonna say we should
we try to put words to the ikeys is Man way that this person is
trying to describe. Yeah language, Yeah, absolutely, I feel like that's
a good place to go because I'm like, what are what are we talking
about? Like? Is it? Because when I think of like Ichy sis
het Man way, I think of violation and I think of like won't take
no for an answer, or a no is just a no until it's a
yes type thing. That's the flavor that feels like this person might be trying
to get out is you know, um violations of concern And I totally,
I totally think so. And I also think that people who are not sisman
often feel like any kind of initiation is pressure any like not from a sisman
to other people. Like when when non sisman are initiating, I think that
our bar is low to feel like we have done too much oppression, right,
Like when you have like a marginalized identity and you feel like taking up
space is potentially unsafe for you, or you will be told that you are
too much, or you between you will be told that you're asking too much.
It makes sense that you adapt and adjust and then you're like, well,
up, I'll occupy less space then, so I won't initiate. I
will I will be ready for when somebody wants me, but I won't,
you know, maybe be the initiator or like a maybe a really present advocate
for my needs and placing them front and center in the spotlight one hundred percent.
And I think along those lines, and with the additional layer of purity
culture, we have very much cast specifically women in the role of the gatekeepers
of sexuality, like it is their job to say yes or no to something,
it is not their job to ask that question. And I think when
we are then in a place where we're asking that question, it feels something
about it feels feels aggressive to us because because we have been taught that,
you know, women are sexually demure and and responsible for preserving purity and preserving
knows and not asking for yeses. So I think, but I think that's
part and parcel with also what you're talking about. I think that's really well
said. And I think that when it comes to this person and their question
is like also the ways in which patriarchy and systems of oppression natural really infiltrate
everyone. So also being like, what does initiation if I were to define
it for myself in my relationships, what would it look like? And maybe
it does borrow from archetypes that you have seen and that artists had meant maybe
it does borrow from some of that, And it sounds like you're in queer
relationships, so those things are also queer for you, and like being able
to kind of like redefine it and being assertive and having a more aggressive kind
of approach that you know obviously respects body autonomy and consent, but being like,
this is still an okay way for me to be because I think that
there is shame and being like, okay, well i can't initiate in this
way because then I'm going to feel like a gross sist dude. And it's
like, well, it can also be like something that makes you feel really
empowered and sexy and turns you on, and that gets to be okay for
you. I love that you brought up the archetype piece because I think what
I'm like feeling so much empathy for for this person for myself is that you
know, I'm somebody that I would love to be a better initiator of sex.
And who are the fucking examples I have to look at to show me
what that looks like. Not very many nuanced ones, not very many people
that look like me. So I guess that, like, in the light
of that, this question makes all the sense in the world. It's sort
of like, okay, so here's the template we've been given. What is
an alternative to that that is still strong and assertive and clear because it is
it is a hard line, right, Like some people, well, what
really love is somebody walked up to them in a bar and put their arm
around their shoulder, depending on who that person was in the context, and
other people would be like, what the fuck And we don't know, we
don't know, and and so I really feel it like, yeah, we
have to err on the side of caution and asking those questions, and yeah,
how do we how do we keep it sexy? At the same time,
it's hard, but I could see it being really sexy if somebody came
up to me and was like, like, I'd love to put my arm
around you or whatever version of that. Yeah, if you can't ask questions
about what somebody wants in a way that is confident. I think that might
be part of a middle ground. All right. The next question says,
how to ask out my best friend of five years? First of all,
yeah, like so hot, first of all. Second of all, potentially
re traumatizing because how many of us have fallen in love with straight best friends
in our past? And I'm gonna go ahead and assume that you know this
person isn't straight, because I can't go there right now. That's the truth.
That's really hard. Okay, Mike, this is not an answer.
This is a story. My godmother's My godmother is queer, but did not
did not know she was queer, was not in touch with her queerness until
her late twenties early thirties, and she had a coworker and they became like
best best best friends and hung out for like years, And then I asked
them the other day. I was like, so, how did this start?
Like you didn't even know? You were like, how did this go?
And she was like, we were at dinner, sitting across from each
other, and I just like started playing footsie with her, and I just
like put my foot on like next to her leg or on her lap,
and she just sort of started like rubbing it and that was there. That
was how it started. So that's one way to do it, Isn't that
kind of cute? That's so cute. Yeah, it melted my heart and
that was like, you know, that was the nineties, right, so
that was that was kind of a big deal. You're That story you just
shared is like so much. It talks about initiation in so many ways and
like the different ways that it can present itself. And I think, how
would you do it? Like, m like I'm going to try to figure
out my best friend and think, like how the fuck would I? I
would never ask out my best friend, So I don't know because I've like
hooked up with Oh that's true, that's a couple of my best how died?
Like? Can maybe can you share if you're open to it? Yeah?
How that starts? Is it? Is there any acknowledgement of attraction ahead
of time or does it just kind of happen? You know? It's It's
interesting because when I'm thinking about this one friend in particular, I'm trying to
remember, like when was the first time that she and I kissed? And
why? Because I feel like we had been Like no, like you're just
friends. Oh my god, I've known you since you were seventeen. Da
da. I think that I just maybe like sense that there was a vibe
shift there. And I think what's really like, I feel really fortunate is
that I've been able to like hook up with her, and that it doesn't
always it hasn't changed like the course of our friendship, and that we're able
to still be friends and then sometimes we make out and sometimes we might have
sex, and then sometimes we won't at all. But I guess this person
is asking something different because it sounds like this person relationship. Yeah, I
think too. So, okay, best friends, you probably talk about everything.
I wonder if you could start out talking about this in a way that
isn't asking them to go out with you, but is sort of exploring whether
or not they've ever thought about you in that way, as like, so
I have this friend and not okay, not quite that roundabout and passive,
but more like, um gosh, why can't I think of an example of
this right now? Let me think this is a tough question. Why is
it tough? Why do you think it's tough? Okay, I'll I'll tell
you why I think it's tough. I think that probably for this person feels
like there's a lot at steak, more at steak than than asking a strang
how a stranger what happens if they say no? What if I make it
awkward? What if I win the friendship and maybe we'd I mean, I'm
glad you asked that question, because if the friendship isn't a friendship that could
handle that. I don't know if it's the relationship, but I would want
to be in Oh maybe, like that would be the kind of conversation I
would want to be able to have and bounce back from with somebody, even
if maybe they needed time of course that would make sense. Yeah, but
like I don't know how they respond to this question for me would be a
great indicator of what I actually want to go out with them. Yeah.
I think another thing that makes it hard is like the fear of rejection,
Like what does it mean if you're if your best friend of five years is
oh right, they really know yourself and then like, yeah, what was
it because of this? This? This? What have you? So?
I feel like that's what makes it hard. Like every time I went through
a breakup and my best friend told me you're hot, anyone would be lucky
enough to have you. They were lying because they didn't want me. Yeah,
yeah, yeah. The stakes. I can understand why that the stakes
are high. I think the stakes are high and the stakes are low because
it's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. And I think that you,
I think testing the waters in a sense of like, maybe things do
feel a little bit flirtatious, and you can kind of sense you might know
what this person's flirt style looks like or when they are into you. Like
as best friends, you do have a really intimate knowledge of one another.
So I think that there are ways that you might be able to be like,
you know, gently curious about like what happens. And it could be
like a foot seat moment. It could be like a you know, just
a lingering glance. I don't know, Okay, could we explore the other
end of the spectrum where they just come out and say it. I just
want to put that out, Like what if they they ask friend to go
to dinner. Friend doesn't necessarily like necessarily know what that means, and that's
fine, I think, And at dinner you maybe have this conversation and say,
like, hey, I know, we go to dinner all the time
as friends, and part of me is hoping that, like, you might
be interested in something else, and if not, we can continue this dinner
as friends as we would have. I will, oh a surprise date,
well not a SKay okay, okay, wait wait you're right, that's not
a good thing. But are we on a date now or not? Okay?
Because I'm just thinking like you, but I like, I like,
I actually don't think that what you're suggesting is a bad thing. You could
text your friend and say, do you want to go on a date with
me? I just feel like there needs to be a little bit more of
like a here's how I got from there to hear yeah, and I'm like
yeah, I say. I like the idea of presenting it as like,
hey, if this is something you have ever thought about you want to explore,
like sweet, we can and continue this dinner as friends and go on
a date later if you decide that something you're interested in. If you're not
interested at all, we can just continue this dinner as friends. Like I
like the idea of being together for the conversation and making it clear that you're
not going anywhere either way, because I think that there could be some built
in aftercare for both of you and something like that that maybe wouldn't be there.
I kind of do agree in kind of like where the maybe explicit nature
of a conversation needs to be had, of like I would like to go
on a date with you rather than like because if you hang out all the
time, it's like and a lot of us flit with our friends all the
time. I know, I know you know, you know it too well.
Well, I want this person to update us, please dear they do
ask out their friend, please tell us. I want the tea and ful
I'm gonna ask all my friends, how would you want me to ask you
out? If I asked you out? And then I will purport back,
I will poor back in the safe word stories. Yeah, and I'll say
I wouldn't want you to ask me out. So one of my friends did
ask me out one time. Actually yeah, he was like we were at
dinner once and we were hanging out, and then like the next day or
two he texted me and was like, hey, like, so some of
the things that you said, Like, I was wondering if this is like
something that you would want to do, because I joked, and I was
like, because we were both resonating on like our dating struggles and being like
really intense, like passionate people who've fallen in love and whatever, and I
was like, ah, we should just date something like that, you know.
And then he was just like, you know, he was very straight
up, and he was like, either way is fine, but I'm just
like wondering if that's something that you were serious no matter if he wanted to
like look into more. And and I was like, oh gosh, because
you were kidding. You were not interested? No, no, no,
I was not interested. But I really appreciated that and like and then he
was like, cool, I'm grown. That's fine. We moved on,
and I was like, dope, can I tell one more story because I
I've actually asked out a friend before she was out on a date with somebody
else, and I just texted her I feel a little bit jealous, and
that was my way in, and it was like, I'm just sharing my
feeling. You can decide for yourself if you want to interpret it as like
I'm jealous you're on a date or I'm jealous someone's on a date with you.
But she like went right with it and we dated. So oh there
it is, look at you initiating. Yeah yeah, in my own special
way, I love it. This week's safe Word is Pineapple from at tc
r n K, so I like all them consonants in your Instagram name.
Safe Word is hosted by Casey Tanner and Kam Lewis and is produced by coordinator
et Townsend. Our theme song is written and performed by Emma Jane and Tory
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