1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:50,200 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:56,759 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're here for an exciting and much overdue 11 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:03,960 episode of Ask Us Anything, Colonial park Murders Edition. Now, Kristen, 12 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:10,680 I know you expressed some disappointment that the questions didn't involve some of your favorite 13 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,000 questions, and we'll get to those later. I think, yes, But 14 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,400 before we get into that, do fill us in a little bit. Mister 15 00:01:18,519 --> 00:01:23,640 Thomas about your trip to Austin, Texas for the True Crime Podcast Festival. 16 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,879 Inquiring minds want to know how it went. Did you love it? Was 17 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,159 it great? It was great for the benefit of our listeners. We were 18 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:37,280 both planning on going, and Kristen's schedule got a little bit full with school 19 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,840 starting up, and she was not able to attend. So I had to 20 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:46,120 solo this thing, which was not as much fun as when Kristen's there all 21 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,879 thank you and everyone was asking for her. I made it clear that she 22 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,439 was fine and she was just busy with school and not able to attend. 23 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:59,120 Because for some reason, they start school in Williamsburg and maybe in the South, 24 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,560 I'm thinking earlier than lots of other places around the country. We used 25 00:02:04,599 --> 00:02:08,080 to have the Labor Day law where you didn't start school before Labor Day, 26 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,960 and that was largely because we've got the big amusement parks around here and you 27 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,159 wanted teenagers to work those as much as possible. But recently there's been that 28 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,719 change over the last couple of years where you can start earlier and hopefully finish 29 00:02:20,759 --> 00:02:25,400 earlier. So we started on August the twenty eighth this year seems against the 30 00:02:25,479 --> 00:02:29,840 natural law of things. It feels a little weird, but yes, but 31 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,520 that does mean that we have a four day weekend because they give us the 32 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,400 first Friday off and then Saturday Sunday than Labor Day Monday. About to do 33 00:02:37,439 --> 00:02:42,199 a four day weekend, I'm okay with that understood. Truclome Podcast Festival was 34 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,039 terrific. It's more of a conference of podcasters. There are fans there, 35 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:52,879 but there are a lot of truecrime podcasters from around the country, many of 36 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,400 them we know, and then many others. I was excited to meet terrific 37 00:02:55,479 --> 00:03:00,639 group. I was glad that Truecrime Podcast Festival is mostly an indoor sport. 38 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:07,719 Because it was one hundred and five degrees in Austin, Texas. It was 39 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:12,319 brutally hot. I actually went outside the Double Tree Hotel where the event was 40 00:03:12,479 --> 00:03:15,759 held once or twice and got to the front door and said nah, and 41 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:22,680 went back inside. Nope, it's too hot even for Texas. It was 42 00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:27,400 awful now. The atmosphere inside was nice and cool. The hotel was very 43 00:03:27,479 --> 00:03:30,240 nice. They had set up so there were two big rooms. One was 44 00:03:30,319 --> 00:03:36,159 the main room where they presented cases and discussed important issues. A lot of 45 00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:39,439 discussion about ethics and true crime. And then there was a secondary room, 46 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:45,280 which was a similar presentation room set up like a small auditorium with a screen 47 00:03:45,319 --> 00:03:50,400 at the front and microphones and comfortable chairs, and I presented on the Colonial 48 00:03:50,439 --> 00:03:55,599 Parkway murders along with the absolutely terrific people from the podcast Murder in the Rain, 49 00:03:55,919 --> 00:04:00,159 and they presented on one of their cases. They were absolutely lovely, 50 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:04,919 So we had a one hour session and they went first and we went second, 51 00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:09,479 and then we saved room for questions at the end, and the audience 52 00:04:09,719 --> 00:04:14,159 was very interested. They asked a lot of great questions. Adjoining those two 53 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:19,519 rooms was a medium sized ballroom that was packed with all of the various podcasts 54 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:24,279 having set up so you could go around and talk to the podcasters. Of 55 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,879 course, there was only me, so I could only be in one place 56 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,240 at one time, so there was a lot of running around. There were 57 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:35,199 so many terrific presentations. I wanted to hear what many of the other investigating 58 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:41,959 officers and forensics experts and especially true crime podcasters had to say. And there 59 00:04:41,959 --> 00:04:47,079 were a number of survivors and victims families there presenting on unsolved cases, which 60 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:51,319 is very interesting, but it's also heartbreaking because you're hearing family members talk about 61 00:04:51,439 --> 00:04:56,959 missing and murdered loved ones, and that's always difficult. It's like a smaller 62 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,199 scale version of Crime Con I really enjoy. Next year is going to be 63 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,079 in Denver. Sounds beautiful and as terrific location. They're moving it further back 64 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:12,519 into this summer because everybody agreed that August in Texas was pretty toasty. I 65 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,639 know, I imagine so, and it would be definitely better for those of 66 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,480 us that have back to school type jobs or I think for some people probably 67 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,639 just back to school kiddos. Yes, to be able to do something a 68 00:05:21,639 --> 00:05:26,040 little further from the start of the school years. We'll see about doing Denver 69 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,399 next year. I've never been to Denver. I think that would be cool. 70 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,360 We'll see, and we are looking forward to crime Con here, which 71 00:05:30,439 --> 00:05:35,480 is only twenty one twenty two days away now. I'm very excited. Buy 72 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,560 we're going to have an absolute blast. Yeah, it's gonna be great. 73 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,319 So thank you to everybody who showed up. We know we did have some 74 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,319 fans who showed up to talk to Bill, and I wish I could have 75 00:05:45,399 --> 00:05:48,000 been there as well. The school job pays the mortgage, so that's the 76 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,800 one I have to give precedence to. We do hope to see everybody at 77 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,279 Crime con here fairly soon and about like I said, twenty one twenty two 78 00:05:56,319 --> 00:05:59,040 days, Yeah, looking forward to it. Well, let's go and jump 79 00:05:59,079 --> 00:06:03,079 into our questions. We went ahead and posited to not only our social media 80 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,959 group from Mind Never Murder, but also the Colonial Parkway Murderers group, what 81 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,680 questions do y'all have on the case? And boy did people deliver? They 82 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:18,480 sure did. The questions are fantastic and really thought provoking QUESTA come up with 83 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:20,600 this idea? She said, we haven't done this in a while, and 84 00:06:20,639 --> 00:06:23,680 I said, you're right, and I thought, let's see what kind of 85 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,199 response we get. Not only are the questions fantastic, but every single day 86 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,600 when we would look at social media, there were more and more interesting questions 87 00:06:31,639 --> 00:06:38,279 and nuanced questions. Thanks to everybody. It was so interesting to see what 88 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:43,160 you're curious about, what you're thinking about people's ideas and theories. So I 89 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:46,439 hope people will enjoy these episodes. Yeah, it's going to definitely be two 90 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:50,319 and maybe possibly even three episodes. When I was going through and looking at 91 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:55,199 all of the questions, I compiled them into a large list here. We're 92 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,399 going to go in categories here, and the first is going to be just 93 00:06:58,519 --> 00:07:02,000 case related, This second set is going to be suspect related questions, the 94 00:07:02,079 --> 00:07:06,199 third set is going to be DNA and FG related questions, and then the 95 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:11,360 fourth set is going to be everything else, including just a couple of random 96 00:07:11,399 --> 00:07:15,639 things that people through in. We like random, yes, no, random 97 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,680 is good. And I actually put in our post like when we say ask 98 00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:23,120 us anything, that means you can ask us about like our favorite dinosaurs, 99 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:26,800 our favorite zoo animals. Nobody asked about either of those two things. By 100 00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:31,079 the way, I was alone as I discuss with you earlier today. I 101 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,160 think you are the co host and producer of this podcast. You have every 102 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,759 right to add any question you want. And so we're going to at least 103 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:46,240 answer the favorite dinosaur questions. Yes, well not now, No, not 104 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,560 right now, but we will at some point figure out both Kristen and Bill's 105 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:54,040 favorite dinosaurs. Why not? Okay, So we're gonna go ahead and just 106 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,000 kick it off here, and we're starting with in the category of general colonial 107 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:03,160 Parkway murders, case related questions. As we do with these episodes, I'm 108 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,800 going to go ahead and give first name, last initial as to who asked 109 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,399 the question, and then I'll pose it Bill and I will answer it, 110 00:08:09,439 --> 00:08:13,040 and we'll move on from there, and we'll just do as many as we 111 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,560 have. We have a battle a list of about thirty, so we'll see 112 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,319 how we do. It's going to be multiple episodes, all right. So 113 00:08:18,319 --> 00:08:22,839 we're going to start with the question from Charlie C. Charlie C asks, 114 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,600 with the parkway being federal property, why was the Virginia State Police and York 115 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:31,360 Pacuson Sheriff's Office called to the scene when the National Park Service rangers should have 116 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,360 secured the scene and called the FBI to handle the scene and collect the evidence 117 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:41,240 and handle a proper investigation. There are too many agencies involved at this crime 118 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:45,120 scene. Now, keep in mind, Kristen and I weren't there. And 119 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:50,360 the Colonial Parkway murders kicks off in October nineteen eighty six with the death of 120 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:54,200 my sister Kathy Thomas and her girlfriend Rebeccadowski, followed by the other murders. 121 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,240 So I feel like this person, Charlie, thanks for the question, is 122 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,200 kicking us off off of the question that might be mostly focused Initially, I 123 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,360 think on the Thomastowski crime scene. Charlie, You're absolutely right. The parkway 124 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:13,000 is federal property. It's a national park, and as we've discussed before, 125 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:16,559 if you are murdered in a national park or go missing for that matter, 126 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:24,919 the National Park Service investigative rangers have jurisdiction, and if it's a murder specifically, 127 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,600 the FBI is called in. From the very beginning, as we understand 128 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,840 it from the people that were there that night, there were a number of 129 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:37,559 different agencies that reported to the scene, and this happened in the other incidents 130 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:43,240 in the Colonial Parkway murders as well. National Park Service and FBI would have 131 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,919 had jurisdiction. We know for certain that both Virginia State Police and York Pacosan 132 00:09:50,159 --> 00:09:56,720 County Sheriff's off officers were on scene, and there were first responders, probably 133 00:09:56,759 --> 00:10:03,399 some firefighters and rescue workers as well, because specifically in Kathy and Becky's scene 134 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:09,200 at the Cheetahmanic's Overlook, the car was actually pulled off the embankment along the 135 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,080 York River before the bodies could be taken out of the car. We're not 136 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,600 experts on this, but we know these other agencies were there mostly in an 137 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,639 assist role, and as far as we know, the first people on seen 138 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:28,519 our National Park Service rangers and the person that is mentioned as breaking the back 139 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:33,759 window of my sister's Honda Civic, which obviously is problematic, especially in retrospect. 140 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,679 That person is supposed to be a National Park Service ranger. The ranger 141 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,000 who was probably first or maybe second on seen when what was originally called in 142 00:10:45,039 --> 00:10:48,240 as a traffic accident. When he reported there, he didn't know he was 143 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:52,360 dealing with a murder scene. He just knows he's got a Honda Civic that's 144 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,960 down the embankment, caught up in brush with its nose fairly close to the 145 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,679 water of the York River, and he's trying to figure you're out. Have 146 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:05,720 the people inside the car? Have they driven over the edge of the grassy 147 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,679 embankment in an accident. He doesn't know that they've been murdered. So he's 148 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,080 trying to get down and get a look at the vehicle. The doors won't 149 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:18,240 open because the two door car is wedged in that underbrush with its nose in 150 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:24,039 that downward position, he can't really see very well through the glass, and 151 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,000 so he makes a decision to break the window, probably with his baton or 152 00:11:28,039 --> 00:11:31,919 something like that, and so he shatters the back window of the Honda. 153 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,279 And then once he shatters the crime scene with broken glass, he's peering in 154 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,799 and he realizes he's got two people, both deceased, My sister Cathy in 155 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,320 the way back in the hatch area and her girlfriend, Rebeccadowski in the back 156 00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:50,600 seat on an angle. I think at that point he steps back and realizes 157 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,240 he's got something far worse than a traffic accident on his hands. There's some 158 00:11:54,360 --> 00:12:01,360 mixed versions of the story. We don't know exactly when the FBI arrived on 159 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,879 scene. We've heard a couple of different versions of the story. And one 160 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:09,039 of the things that's going to be a through line here in some of these 161 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:15,039 answers we give you is we can't always tell. And we've certainly asked FBI 162 00:12:15,159 --> 00:12:18,399 and Virginia State Police at different times, but they don't answer questions in a 163 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:24,360 very straightforward manner. They have the attitude that they ask the questions and don't 164 00:12:24,399 --> 00:12:30,519 answer questions. I'm not saying they've never answered questions, but very frustrating and 165 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,600 sometimes I feel foolish because people will say to me, what about this what 166 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,679 about that? And I'll have thought to myself and Kristen, I'm sure you'll 167 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,399 want to weigh in here. We've thought we ought to know the answer to 168 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,320 that unless someone who was there on the law enforcement side won't answer the question 169 00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:50,679 in a straightforward manner. It's still kind of guesswork with a lot of these 170 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,720 questions, and they're all excellent questions. I was responding to people on our 171 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,759 various pages saying, yes, we'll address that, and a lot of times 172 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:03,080 I've found myself having to type law enforcement will not tell us that, but 173 00:13:03,159 --> 00:13:07,799 we will speculate, or law enforcement will not answer that, but we'll do 174 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:11,799 the best we can. There is so very much here that we want to 175 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,919 know, just as badly as all the rest of you. But until the 176 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,600 FBI or the VSP decides to cough up information, we're as in the dark 177 00:13:18,639 --> 00:13:22,120 as the rest of you are, and we can only use the information that 178 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,799 we do have in some informed speculation along the way to try to provide you 179 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,399 with answers. I'll add something else too, I agree. I do want 180 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,799 to make it clear our guesses, if you will, our educated guesses. 181 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:41,840 We have interviewed a number of different law enforcement people over the years, particularly 182 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:48,039 for the television series which we actually shot twice, the Lover's Lane Murders series 183 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,960 on Oxygen. So there's dozens, if not hundreds of hours of footage and 184 00:13:54,039 --> 00:13:56,399 I was there for almost all of it, and Kristen was there for a 185 00:13:56,399 --> 00:14:01,480 fair amount as well. So we interview a number of people that are in 186 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:07,639 that kind of first responder FBI, VSP, your county, and other agencies. 187 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,559 I've spoken to most of these people one on one, particularly when they're 188 00:14:13,639 --> 00:14:18,720 retired. They're often more willing to be frank about what they remember because we 189 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,559 are talking about cases that stretched back thirty three to thirty seven years. Now, 190 00:14:24,159 --> 00:14:31,679 these are educated guesses. We're basing our responses on what people who were 191 00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:37,879 there have told us they remember about those days and nights working the investigation in 192 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,360 all four crime scenes. Let's go and move on to the next question. 193 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:46,559 This is from Shelley R. Shelley asks, I'm curious why the county will 194 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,519 not let anyone come with cadaver dogs over the years to see if remains were 195 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,639 driven further up the parkway and dumped in the woods. No evidence they were 196 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,840 dumped in the water besides the scent followed to the bridge in the initial investigation. 197 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:03,399 If their remains can be located, they could contain evidence. I do 198 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,879 want to actually ask something about the phrasing and Shelley's question, Bill, is 199 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,240 it the National Park Service that is not allowing the cadaver dogs or is it 200 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,120 York County itself? Can you shed some light on that before we go into 201 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:22,639 the actual question. National Park Service has actually been the responsible agency. For 202 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,639 instance, I think Shelley is talking mostly about the Keith Call Cassandra Hailey disappearance. 203 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:33,440 Yes, that's the one where Keith's Toyota Celica is found on the Colonial 204 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:37,000 Parkway at the York River Overlook, which is, what do we say, 205 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,559 one to two miles away from the site where Kathy's Yeah car was found a 206 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:45,440 year and a half prior. So. The responding agency has always been the 207 00:15:45,559 --> 00:15:52,879 National Park Service, and about ten years ago they did allow cadaver dogs after 208 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:58,519 much back and forthing with the families. The Call and Hailey families had arranged 209 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:06,159 for cadaver dogs to be brought in and they did search some specific areas, 210 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:11,720 overcoming resistance from the National Park Service. The Park Service was completely bizarre. 211 00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,879 They were almost obsessed with the fact that not one blade of grass could be 212 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:21,559 disturbed by these dogs. It they behaved as if the flowers, plants, 213 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:26,279 and trees and grass of the gorgeous area we know as the Colonial Parkway was 214 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:30,720 somehow more important than finding the remains of Keith and Sandy, which a number 215 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:36,720 of us found pretty objectionable. However, when the families amped up the pressure 216 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,320 and began to call out the Park Service publicly, the park Service did back 217 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,320 down and they did allow the search to continue. There've been discussions over the 218 00:16:45,399 --> 00:16:52,200 years about having additional searches of the parkway, and the FBI has conducted their 219 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,320 own searches. Now they don't run into the problem with the National Park Service 220 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:00,519 that the families from the Colin Haley family did. I know there have been 221 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:07,759 searches conducted, and I've seen photographs of people and dogs searching the parkway and 222 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:11,920 the water looking for particularly I think, for Keith and Sandy's remains, So 223 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:17,240 we know it's been searched multiple times, and the County has not played a 224 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,759 role. As far as I know, It's always been the National Park Service 225 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:26,000 allowing and sometimes standing in the way of cadaver dog and other types of searching. 226 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,240 My current concern that I've mentioned both to Bill and to the Call family 227 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,440 and the Haley family as well, is that right at the moment, the 228 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:40,960 Parkway is undergoing a massive, multimillion dollar rehabilitation project over the next three years, 229 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,839 and right now there is a ton of construction happening in the area around 230 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,599 the York River overlooking the Cheatham Annex Overlook, with lots of heavy construction equipment. 231 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:56,400 I sincerely hope that someone from the FBI or the NPS or some other 232 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:02,319 responsible agency has put the word out to the construction crew that is doing all 233 00:18:02,319 --> 00:18:04,759 of this work and said, hey, can you please be on the lookout 234 00:18:06,039 --> 00:18:10,200 for two sets of human remains and we are still potentially looking for murder weapon 235 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,599 and Kathy and Becky's case. I sincerely hope a responsible party, and I 236 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,319 would hope it would be the FBI, would have come to the construction crew 237 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,920 and said this is something we are still looking for, please be aware. 238 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,759 I don't have a lot of confidence that has happened, but I'm willing to 239 00:18:25,799 --> 00:18:30,119 be surprised and pleased by the outcome if so. I agree, and we 240 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,000 just don't know if they've put the word out. It would be great if 241 00:18:34,039 --> 00:18:38,759 they did. Now I'm not there, I know I'll be in Virginia with 242 00:18:38,839 --> 00:18:45,640 you, Kristen, and other family members for memorial service that's planned for Keith. 243 00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:48,279 Call. That'll be the first time I'll have been on the Parkway in 244 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:52,960 the last year or two. I would say, I don't exactly know, 245 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:59,480 except based on what you've told me what those construction projects look like. Are 246 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,200 they most to the settings of Thomastowski and Call Haley, Yes, they are. 247 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,720 They're right up along those areas right at the moment. Based on what 248 00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:11,839 they're doing, they are closer to Kathy and Becky's scenes than they are to 249 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:17,400 where Keith's car was found. As our question or Shelley had asked, I 250 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,240 don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that Keith and Sandra's bodies were 251 00:19:21,319 --> 00:19:25,599 moved. And if that's the case, then every construction crews they go through 252 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:29,640 the phase of this project should be on the lookout for potential human remains, 253 00:19:29,759 --> 00:19:33,359 because they might not just have stayed in that area where the car was found. 254 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,039 It could be anywhere on the Parkway. That's true. One other reply 255 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,559 to Shelley, interestingly, in that incident that I was describing where the Call 256 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,720 and Haley families had brought in cold ever dogs. The Cadever dogs actually did 257 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,400 hit on something. And the way the coldever dog's work is they're trained to 258 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,599 smell. They're looking for the smell of human remains, and they did hit 259 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,079 and they sit down. They stop and they sit down, and they're indicating 260 00:19:59,079 --> 00:20:03,599 to their handlers this is a spot. After pushing past all that resistance from 261 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,279 the National Park Service, we were lessantly surprised. It was a very hot 262 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:11,240 Sunday afternoon. Temperatures were in the nineties. There were news crews on scene 263 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,240 being held back at some distance. The dogs actually did hit on one of 264 00:20:15,279 --> 00:20:22,200 the suggested areas, and the FBI on a Sunday afternoon zoomed in there with 265 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:29,279 an evidence recovery team and took over the scene and did a dig, got 266 00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:32,759 the dogs and everybody else out of there. It turned out the remains were 267 00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:36,359 much older, and as Kristen can tell you, there's a lot of history 268 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:40,000 there in that part of the room, and there are unmarked graveyards and even 269 00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:45,279 unmarked graves that don't have anything to do with the last thirty thirty five years. 270 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,920 So there were remains found, and they did figure out, you know, 271 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,960 this is a much much older grave site. Now the dog has no 272 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:57,240 way of knowing that. So the dogs did their job under really difficult circumstances, 273 00:20:57,319 --> 00:21:00,599 because they do better when the web there's cooler. But I will say 274 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:06,400 that after pushing past the resistance of the Park Service, when the families found 275 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,119 something, the FBI just swooped right in and took immediate control. And we 276 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,920 were actually very impressed by the level of response from the Bureau Evidence Response team. 277 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:21,200 Next question is from David R. Longtime listener and frequent respondent on our 278 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,759 page. It's really more of a sort of a supposition than a question, 279 00:21:23,759 --> 00:21:26,720 and I'll go ahead and read it out though. David says, I would 280 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,279 like to know where the killer or killer's first crossed the victims pass. My 281 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,720 general theory is that the killer was a prowler who trolled the area searching for 282 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,920 victims. So I would like to know where he spotted these victims and how 283 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,119 he approached them. And I think that's definitely a question. We all have 284 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:44,720 a bill. Do you want to expound on your theory as related to Kathy 285 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,359 and Becky. Yeah, David's asking a great question here. You know, 286 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,079 one of the things that's key, David, is are these people, the 287 00:21:52,200 --> 00:22:00,680 victims involved in a chance encounter with someone who is there at these locations looking 288 00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:06,240 for a couple pulled over who may or may not be involved in sexual or 289 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:08,920 romantic behavior, or may just be two people sitting in a car, or 290 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:15,400 are they being followed somehow? I think in some of these examples, and 291 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,039 I know some other people have asked us this, and we'll get into some 292 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,799 more detail as we move forward, I'm not sure that all of the Colonial 293 00:22:22,839 --> 00:22:26,839 Parkway murders are even related. As I've said before, the more I learned 294 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:33,440 about these cases, the less I personally think they're all related. I think 295 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,440 there's a very good chance that Kathy and Becky, for example, were stalked 296 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,079 that as someone was following them at the same time. When you move into 297 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,799 incident number two, Robin Edwards and David Nobbling, I think they may have 298 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:51,400 actually planned to meet someone at Ragged Island, perhaps to do a low level 299 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:56,079 drug deal by some pot or something like that. In incident number three, 300 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:02,079 which is Keith Colling Cassandra Haley coming home from the party Christopher Newport University apartments. 301 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,440 That one is the biggest mystery to me. Yeah, because I can't 302 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,359 figure out whether Keith and Sandy might have encountered somebody at this college party involving 303 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:18,559 multiple apartments and kids going from place to place, or if someone followed them 304 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:22,839 from the party. The odd thing about Keith and Sandy is, as we've 305 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,920 talked about before, they end up on the parkway, but that's not on 306 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,039 the way home to her parents home in Grafton. It's right, what did 307 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:33,759 you say, Kristin fifteen to twenty minutes out of the way, it's definitely 308 00:23:33,799 --> 00:23:37,880 further away from where they should have been. I've always wondered. I'm coming 309 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,599 around this idea based on something a friend told me or speculated about this. 310 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,640 We spend a lot of time speculating about this. I'm wondering if they didn't 311 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,359 get accosted in the parking lot leaving the party and that someone just put a 312 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,799 gun to their head and said drive, or if somebody was waiting in the 313 00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:53,400 back seat of the car. I don't know, but you're right, it 314 00:23:53,519 --> 00:23:57,720 is the biggest mystery out of all of them. Incident number four, phelp 315 00:23:57,759 --> 00:24:03,079 Slower. I'm to the idea that enemy of Phelps and Daniel Lauer may have 316 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:08,720 made plans to meet someone, perhaps to buy some pot or something like that. 317 00:24:08,799 --> 00:24:12,000 And again I'm not passing any judgment here. These are young people doing 318 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,359 young people things. It's not like they're the only kids in America that ever 319 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,759 bought a bag of pot or smoked a joint in a car while listening to 320 00:24:18,839 --> 00:24:26,720 music. Something about that crime scene up there off Interstate sixty four feels very 321 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:32,400 different from the other Colonial Parkway murder scenes. I think that in Phelps Lauer 322 00:24:32,559 --> 00:24:37,039 they may have planned to meet someone that they knew. The money that Daniel 323 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:41,680 was carrying sixty eight hundred dollars from painting jobs that he had done that summer 324 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:47,160 with his father. That money disappeared. Robberies a potential motive and incident number 325 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,920 four. So Phelps Lauer feels very different to me as well. So back 326 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,559 to David's initial question, is he thinking this is somebody who trolled the area 327 00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:02,279 looking for victims. It's a reasonable question, David, but I'm not sure 328 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,079 that's actually what's happening here. Yeah, I think it really does have to 329 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,960 do with whether you want to fall in line with the idea that so many 330 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:18,039 people have embraced over the years. Is there one serial killer stocking couples on 331 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,000 and off the Parkway. If so, David's question is great and valid. 332 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,599 If not, then you do have to approach it in the piecemeal. How 333 00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:30,480 did each group of victims, assuming they're all related, come across their assailant. 334 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,559 I think there's really no way that we're going to know until we have 335 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,920 an arrest, get at a confession hopefully, or something along those lines. 336 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,759 But it's a great supposition. David, and I know that David comments offen 337 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:45,440 and on our posts, so I know that this is something that he thinks 338 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,640 about quite a lot. Thank you for Wayne and David and your concern and 339 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:56,039 pondering of the case is very welcome. We appreciate it. You're listening to 340 00:25:56,079 --> 00:26:00,000 Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 341 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:17,839 We're back here at Mind over Murder. We've got a question from Nancy, 342 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,519 and honestly, I think this is I don't think this is a question either 343 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:26,480 of us have seen before. Bill Nancy E asks, we're uniformed patrols on 344 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,319 night shifts for places like Carter's Grove. Ever considered for anyone who doesn't know 345 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:40,240 Carter's Grove is a plantation. Here in Williamsburg, we have many old plantations 346 00:26:40,279 --> 00:26:42,960 from the very early days of the colony, some of which have been rebuilt 347 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,400 and turned into tourist destinations, and Carter's Grove is one of those. I've 348 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,839 never actually been to Carter's Grove in all my years here. But it's the 349 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,519 question of are there people I don't even know if there are uniformed patrols, 350 00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:03,079 private or otherwise out of the plantations. And I don't think we've ever had 351 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,440 anyone bring up the idea of anyone from Carter's Grove. Have you heard that 352 00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,519 ever anywhere? Bill, No, I'd never heard of Carter's Grove until we 353 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:17,680 were talking about it today in preparation to record this session. I want to 354 00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:21,920 maybe step back Nancy's question a little bit. First of all, if Nancy 355 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,359 has more information for us, we welcome hearing from her again about why she 356 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,720 would think Carter's Grove, which appears to be plantation, it's a historic home, 357 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,279 it looks beautiful in the photographs. I think the step back for me 358 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:41,720 is are there uniformed patrols in any of these locations? Yeah? Number one 359 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,880 and let's go through this as we understand it. And again we weren't there, 360 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,119 and we can only rely on the law enforcement people that have talked to 361 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:56,519 us about this. The Colonial Parkway was exceptionally lightly patrolled at night, and 362 00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:02,480 one veteran police officer, they'll remain nameless for the moment, there's been very 363 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,119 helpful to us behind the scenes, had said to us, if people knew 364 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,319 just how lightly patrolled the Colonial Parkway was at night, they would have never 365 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:15,839 gone there because it was that dangerous, is what I'm saying. People like 366 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,359 Choice Called Canada have told us when they were kids, young teenagers, they 367 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,680 knew you could go to the Colonial Parkway and drink beer and hang out and 368 00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:30,039 make up with your boyfriend or whatever, because there were essentially no patrols, 369 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,240 particularly when you get into the third shift. You know that eleven pm to 370 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:40,440 seven am late shift. At different times. Over the years, sometimes York 371 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:45,079 County would patrol the Parkway with some sort of service arrangement with the Park Service. 372 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:52,000 That twenty three mile long ribbon of land was extremely lightly patrolled. In 373 00:28:52,119 --> 00:28:56,720 the two incidents that are on the Colonial Parkway, we can say pretty definitively 374 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,559 the road was very lightly patrolled. In incident number two, noveling Edwards at 375 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,599 Ragged Island, the cops did swing through there and still do. And interestingly, 376 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:14,000 Ragged Island the parking area is actually quite close to the James River Bridge. 377 00:29:14,039 --> 00:29:18,119 State troopers and other local police do swing through there pretty frequently, so 378 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:25,480 that one's probably reasonably well patrolled. And certainly law enforcement officers saw David's pickup 379 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,720 truck in the parking lot. Now, obviously there were no bodies at that 380 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,279 point, as far as we know, they had already been murdered and their 381 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:37,279 bodies had been dumped in the water. The police officers did see the abandoned 382 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:42,119 vehicle and we're checking it out. An Incident number four, Phelpslour Interstate sixty 383 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,839 four is pretty well patrolled by the Virginia State Police. But again the police 384 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,920 found the vehicle abandoned at the wrong way rest stop, heading back towards Amelia 385 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,319 County instead of in the direction of travel towards Virginia Beach. That hunting ground 386 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:04,160 off sixty four I think had no patroling whatsoever. No, it's private property. 387 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Yeah, very interesting question there from Nancy. And again we would urge 388 00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:14,240 anybody who has information but Nancy in particular, if you have information that might 389 00:30:14,279 --> 00:30:17,319 help us understand a little bit more about your question, please to send it 390 00:30:17,359 --> 00:30:22,000 to us. We do appreciate that. Next question is from Bart D and 391 00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:25,359 I think this is a great question and it does involve a little bit of 392 00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:29,440 supposition from us that I think that's fine. Bart asks, I question if 393 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,480 keys car was dumped at the Parkway after disposing of the bodies elsewhere and utilizing 394 00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:37,400 an accomplice to pick up the murderer. This could be a possibility at the 395 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,599 New Kent rest area as well as the victim's car was found at the westbound 396 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,599 rest area when the victims were traveling eastbound. Possibly they were objected at the 397 00:30:45,599 --> 00:30:48,559 eastbound rest area, driven to the site where their bodies were found in the 398 00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:52,240 car dropped at the westbound rest area, with an accomplice either following behind or 399 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,440 an agreement to meet back there. So yeah, not really a question, 400 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:00,799 more supposition and I think it's pretty solid. Yeah, I think so too. 401 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,519 Let's break this down a little bit. So Bart first asks about Keith 402 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:10,599 calls Toyota Celica. Now, this is Keith and Sandy heading home from the 403 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:17,359 party in Newport News at the university apartments. I do think that the car 404 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,359 is abandoned at the York River Overlook. I don't think the murder took place 405 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,440 there. It's essentially a disappearance, but I don't think they were made to 406 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:32,359 disappear at that location. And I do agree that the car was likely dumped 407 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,519 there. Given the fact that we're talking distances of miles, I would say 408 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:41,920 it's probably pretty likely that if they dumped the Toyota FeliCa at the York River 409 00:31:41,039 --> 00:31:45,640 Overlook, the murder took place elsewhere. Yeah, I think there has to 410 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,400 be an accomplice following in another vehicle. Driver takes the Toyota, drops it 411 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,920 off, gets out of the car, leaves that location in a vehicle likely 412 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,680 driven by someone else. Now, Bart makes a lot of really good points 413 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:04,400 in the Phelps Slour Incident number four. This is out on Interstate sixty four 414 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,440 about they're traveling eastbound, as I had mentioned a moment ago, and yet 415 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:14,640 the vehicle is found in the westbound mirror image rest stop there on both sides 416 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:20,000 of the divided highway. They're Interstate sixty four. I don't think it's necessary, 417 00:32:20,079 --> 00:32:23,200 though, that there be a second vehicle, one of the things that 418 00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:28,799 was pointed out to me by one of the investigating officers is if you encountered 419 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:35,519 Anna, Maria and Daniel in the eastbound rest stop and then say asserted control, 420 00:32:35,559 --> 00:32:39,400 maybe produced a gun or whatever, and told them to drive one exit 421 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,359 further eastbound, and then to get off there. Then turn and take a 422 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,680 left, go over the highway. If I'm not mistaken, turn onto a 423 00:32:49,759 --> 00:32:53,119 dirt road which leads you to the Hunt Club area. After killing them, 424 00:32:53,480 --> 00:33:00,359 that individual could have then driven the Chevy Nova back west bound about a mile 425 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:05,319 or so and stopped at the rest stop. He or they could have left 426 00:33:05,519 --> 00:33:10,519 the vehicle there and run across the grassy and wooded median from one side of 427 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:15,200 the highway to the other. It might not be necessary to have a second 428 00:33:15,279 --> 00:33:22,519 vehicle in that supposition. Let's just say and Daniel make arrangements to meet someone 429 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,720 at that eastbound rest stop as they're driving towards Virginia Beach, perhaps to make 430 00:33:27,759 --> 00:33:30,680 that pot deal that I talked about. It's also possible this could be a 431 00:33:30,759 --> 00:33:35,759 random encounter at that rest stop with a police officer or a wannabe or someone 432 00:33:35,839 --> 00:33:39,160 you know presenting as a police officer. It would be possible to do all 433 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:46,359 this by leaving the offender's vehicle parked at the rest stop. He gets into 434 00:33:46,359 --> 00:33:50,680 the Chevy Nova with the two of them and then forces them to take the 435 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:54,400 journey I just described. Then drives the car back the Chevy, parks the 436 00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,640 Nova runs or walks across the median. It's late at night. If he 437 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,039 waits until no cars are coming, it doesn't see any headlights. He scampers 438 00:34:06,039 --> 00:34:09,239 across the first part, hides in the trees, waits in the median until 439 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:15,320 there's no cars coming eastbound, runs across the two lanes of traffic there, 440 00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:20,760 and then he gets back in his car and drives away. It does make 441 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,920 perfect sense, and this was explained to me by an FBI agent several years 442 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,800 ago. It's not like sixty four is so heavily traveled that there is never 443 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,960 a time when there are no cars on the road. There are definitely times 444 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,639 where there would be no headlights, no cars coming that you could make that 445 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,920 trek like you were describing Bill on foot, with no worry that you're going 446 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,519 to get slammed into by an eighteen wheeler. If you just wait in the 447 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:49,039 dark and you don't even have to stand that far back. If you're standing 448 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:52,119 behind the tree line in the middle of that median, you just wait, 449 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,199 you listen, and then wait till whatever cars or trucks are going by. 450 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,119 I recognize inter Stay sixty four does have traffic twenty four seven, but there 451 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:05,960 are gaps between clusters of cards and trucks. Yeah. Absolutely, And it 452 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:09,360 is dark out there at all times. It doesn't even matter that there are 453 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,719 rest areas with well lighted parking lots. It is dark no matter what. 454 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,719 It's an interesting bid of subposition, and that's definitely something that makes sense thinking 455 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,800 about it. We've already hit on this question from Gary S, but let's 456 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,599 go ahead and just put it out there on the record anyway, because it 457 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:30,760 is a great question. Gary S asks, how convinced are we that these 458 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,360 four crime scenes are actually related? What evidence actually links them if any. 459 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,960 We do need to talk about the second half of this question, for sure, 460 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,400 because shoe the best of our knowledge, and again this is with the 461 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,960 assumption that we have all of the facts, and we don't. Unfortunately the 462 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,079 FBI does not like to share. But to the best of our knowledge, 463 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:54,119 there is no forensic evidence linking all four crime scenes. Correct and We've asked 464 00:35:54,159 --> 00:35:59,960 this question repeatedly, and we is a number of the Colonial Parkway murders family. 465 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719 Now, we haven't had a group face to face meeting with the FBI 466 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,079 since January twenty ten, which is unacceptable from my perspective, but we have 467 00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:15,000 had individual meetings with the FBI and the Virginia State Police much more recently. 468 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:21,239 We've asked them the question over and over again, and the answer continues to 469 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,639 be, according to the FBI and the Virginia State Police, there is nothing 470 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:30,079 in the forensics that links these four crime scenes. Kristen, what you're saying 471 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,159 continues to be accurate as far as the information has been provided to us by 472 00:36:35,199 --> 00:36:39,239 law enforcement. I do agree with Bill that I think it is very likely 473 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:45,480 that as some of these cases get solved, others will come off the table. 474 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:50,840 I do not think at this point that Anna, Maria and Daniel's case 475 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960 at New Kent is connected to the others. I think that is going to 476 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:00,119 be the first to go off the table because it just seems more likely to 477 00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:06,079 me, given the fact that there is money missing from Daniel, that what 478 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,280 happened to them may have something to do with a robbery gone bad. Very 479 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,679 low level drug deal gone bad. I think that is more likely than the 480 00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:17,480 theory that I know so many people like, which is that there is a 481 00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:22,440 serial killer walking around and stocking couples, or driving around and stocking couples. 482 00:37:22,559 --> 00:37:27,480 I think if anything is going to fall off the table, so to speak, 483 00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:30,519 first, I think it will be Daniel and Anna Maria. I agree, 484 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:36,360 and at the same time, I still openly question whether even the three 485 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:42,360 remaining Colonial Parkway murders are necessarily all related. I could be completely wrong. 486 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,039 I certainly have been wrong before. That's just where I am in twenty twenty 487 00:37:46,039 --> 00:37:51,920 three, based on lots of additional research and as I said, interviewing many 488 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:58,800 FBI agents, Virginia State Police agents, crime scene reconstruction experts, and not 489 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:04,320 all of the discussion that we had ended up in the television series. I 490 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,719 sat through lengthy interviews and in many cases twice for hours, discussing the details 491 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:14,000 of these crime scenes. And again, they're not going to remember everything, 492 00:38:14,039 --> 00:38:19,559 but they remembered a lot. Their observations are firsthand. I'm way less than 493 00:38:19,599 --> 00:38:24,159 convinced that these four double homicides are necessarily all related. Someone a little bit 494 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:29,719 later down our question list does make a point, she asks whether or not 495 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:34,800 Lauriane Powell might be considered a parkway case. We consider Laurian Palm, Brian 496 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,119 Pettinger, I call them the parkway adjacent cases. I don't think it's out 497 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:44,039 of the realm of possibility that either of them might be connected to a leading 498 00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:49,280 suspect that may be connected to one of the four primary parkway cases. Maybe 499 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,159 it's entirely possible that we're going to have to re name and rethink what we 500 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:58,880 consider the Colonial Parkway murders cases, even accounting for these four and maybe taking 501 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,280 one off the table, Anna, Marie and Daniel. Do we even have 502 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:06,360 all the cases? Should we be considering Laurie and Brian as part of it? 503 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,760 I don't know. It is definitely something that comes to mind when I 504 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,159 start considering the name as a whole, things that keep us up at time. 505 00:39:15,639 --> 00:39:19,679 Yeah, no, seriously, it is, and we're not alone in 506 00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,440 that regard. And by the way, anytime we're talking about any of the 507 00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:29,280 parkway adjacent cases, we're not minimizing the importance of those cases. We're just 508 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:34,199 saying these four double homicides have been grouped together and referred to as the Colonial 509 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:37,559 Parkway murders by the media, not by the investigators. Yeah, exactly. 510 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:45,440 The name itself is a media creation that came out of local Virginia newspaper, 511 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:52,079 television, and radio coverage back in the nineteen eighties, and they began referring 512 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:54,840 to them as the Colonial Parkway murders. I've even said, Kristens, there 513 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,960 have been times when I've thought that even the name the Colonial Parkway murders, 514 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,400 it's a little bit misleading because only two of our incidents even happened on the 515 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,800 parkway, and even then maybe only partially on the parkway. As we were 516 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,440 talking about with Keith and Sandy, I'm not sure whatever happened to them even 517 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,920 transpired on the Colonial Parkway. Yeah, in a way, the name itself 518 00:40:17,159 --> 00:40:22,719 is a rabbit hole because we've all assumed that all of these cases, particularly 519 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,400 for folks around the country and around the world that are learning about these cases, 520 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,280 they think they all happened inside the National Park, when the reality is 521 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:35,480 they didn't. And the interesting thing too, that sort of comes out of 522 00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:38,679 that is the fact that for thirty it's gonna be thirty seven years in October. 523 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,960 For your sister's case, the oldest of them, the case has become 524 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:46,679 branded, if you will, in this way. There is no way that 525 00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:51,639 we could change that, Moniker. Now we've become so used to referring to 526 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,559 the case in this way that if we started referring to the case by any 527 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:59,440 other name or by I'm sorry it's sad to say, but it's true. 528 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:05,159 We started just addressing the cases by the names of the victims. Most people 529 00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,000 aren't going to know who we're talking about. They know Colonial Parkway murders as 530 00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:13,199 a whole, they know what that looks like. But a lot of times, 531 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,679 and I include myself in this, before I started working with you, 532 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,239 by the way, I didn't know the names of the victims for a long 533 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:25,440 time. I knew for double homicides, but as an amorphous whole, that's 534 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,159 what I knew them as. And so it's now. It's weirdly this question 535 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:35,559 of if the case has to be branded in any way, and as true 536 00:41:35,559 --> 00:41:39,239 crime becomes much more like a media constructs and a publicity machine. You almost 537 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,960 have to brand it in a particular way. If it has to be branded 538 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,719 as anything, it's just the Colonial Parkway murders. I can't think of anything 539 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,760 else we would call it. Certainly we wouldn't call it the Lover's Lean Murders. 540 00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:52,320 That was a goofy decision from Oxygen, and I don't care if they 541 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:58,239 know it. They didn't pay me, so they didn't pay me to work 542 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,719 on the show they paid you. You can't say anything about it, but 543 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,559 I can. Lovers Lay Murdis was a stupid name, right, How use 544 00:42:02,599 --> 00:42:06,320 would we refer to it? Even though it is a little misleading. I 545 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,199 can't think of any other way we would refer to it. For the record, 546 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:15,800 I didn't care for the name either. We have twenty one more questions 547 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:21,840 in this grand line up that we need to answer, and we haven't even 548 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,719 gotten to suspects yet, and certainly not to DNA, which I think most 549 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:30,280 everyone wants information on. So we are going to have to continue this for 550 00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:35,360 one and possibly two more episodes. If in the meantime you do think of 551 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:40,000 more burning questions, send them our way. We are happy to respond to 552 00:42:40,039 --> 00:42:44,760 them, either online or right here on the podcast, and we will do 553 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,719 our best. We are entering what I unfortunately have to think of as anniversary 554 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,679 season here because Anna, Maria and Daniels anniversary is Labor Day weekend, and 555 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,760 then come Robin and David's and then Kathy and Becky's. We're going to spend 556 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,760 a lot more time over the next couple of weeks answering questions, putting up 557 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,159 information about the case on our Facebook and Instagram And do we even have a 558 00:43:07,159 --> 00:43:10,079 Twitter page anymore? Oh? I'm sorry? Do we have an X page 559 00:43:10,159 --> 00:43:14,159 anymore? Yes? We do. We have an X page. Okay, 560 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,400 so we'll put stuff up on Facebook and Insta an X. I just can't 561 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:21,480 call it that, that's ridiculous. But as we continue to move forward, 562 00:43:21,519 --> 00:43:23,960 so please feel free to reach out to us at any of our social media 563 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,480 pages. That is going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. 564 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:40,400 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind 565 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:46,480 Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive 566 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:52,800 producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 567 00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,880 Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in 568 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,920 partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 569 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:07,440 or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on 570 00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,119 Facebook and finally, You can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. 571 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,480 Five six Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.