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You know, it's somewhat frankly predictable. Yes, yes, well that's not

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what we're about. As you know, at ARC, we're all about the

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future, trying to figure out the
way the world's going to work. And

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well, I'd love to give you
an opportunity right now to you know,

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address what you think mainstream media does
not understand because there's such a big story

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here. There are so many big
stories that you know, offer all kinds

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of hope and you know, really
transformation in the future, and you're leaving

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the charge. So what don't they
get, do you think, and what

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would you like to what would you
like them to understand? Well, I

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think that's quite a long list of
things that don't understand or where they basically

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don't wish to focus on because it
doesn't quite lead to clicks and traffic.

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So I guess, I guess I
could I could you know, go over

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at a high level what space Exit
has are accomplishing or have accomplished this year.

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You know, well you just said
that like media is a dwindling pie,

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and you own a big kind of
like media platform franchise. How do

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you think about the future of X
within that context, and how it should

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evolve. Well, I mean X
is actually growing in traffic, so I

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mean, again when doesn't know quite
which to believe. But uh, the

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you know, when you look at
the traffic numbers, the traditional media is

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down, but but X's is up, So you know, I think that's

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you know, of course for optimism. But of course the traditional media would

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never actually write a story about that. I'm not going to write a story

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that says, hey, we're losing
an X is winning is a very unlikely

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headline. In fact, you see
the opposite headlines which are quite misleading that

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X FK Twitter is dying or dead
or whatever. I mean, how many

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times have we seen that headline.
It's getting a little tedious. I mean

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you can just press, you know, repost the same thing every month,

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is what it seems like. So
you know, that's you know, So

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I think I feel quite optimistic about
the sort of X platform and where it's

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going. And we're adding a ton
of functionality that I think people will find

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useful. There's been immense progress in
just the course of a year. We've

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accomplished more advancements in a year than
I think in the Twitter done in the

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prior at least five years. So, yeah, one of the we've been

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talking a lot about X. We
know, we own it in our venture

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fund, and we've been talking about, you know, the democratization that you

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are enabling in many ways. We
were just going back to Tesla. You'll

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remember that, you know when when
Tesla, when you were thinking about taking

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a private I implored you, you
know, no, you know the you

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know we've been supporting We the retail
investor and others have been supporting Tesla,

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don't take it private. You'll you'll
take it you know away, this incredible

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growth opportunity. And so thank you
for that. That was a democratization move.

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But Twitter, yeah, should I
should say that that, you know,

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your little play was influential, you
know, played as a significant role

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in the decision ultimately not to take
the company private. We could have taken

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the company private. The downside was
that it would have been quite a big

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distraction. So and of course it
would would have made it difficult for many

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investors to remain invested. And I
mean the combination of factors of complexity having

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to leave behind so many investors.
Really that was Those are the two factors

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that you know why we decided not
to take company private. We absolutely could

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have. I want to be just
absolutely super clear, No, no,

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I know that, And we did
have funding secured, so you know,

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it was six more than enough funding. You know, it's it's it's worth

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bear in mind that, you know, I was sued in a San Francisco

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court which which was jury shopped by
a class action plaintiff law firm. It's

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always it's important bear in mind in
these class action laws lawsuits, the media

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will actually write as though it is
actually an aggrieved shareholder, but in fact

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it is not. The true plaintiff
is the class action law firm, and

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the plaintiff is simply a puppet.
Yes, so, but the media never

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never mentioned this. You took Twitter
private, was, you know, to

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to really enable free speech? And
again the whole democratization, this democratization concept,

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you know, we're we're all about
that as well. We give our

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research away. We want people to
understand how how much the world's changing,

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how technologically enabled innovation is going to
transform could transform everyone's lives for the better

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if they get on the right side
of change. So so, yeah,

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thank you, Well, absolutely so. The there's that kind of like maybe

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an augment that sounds or kind of
esoteric. But it's the way I actually

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think about it that you can think
of the X platform or social media in

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general as kind of a collective consciousness
or group mind, and you want to

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have as much signal and as little
noise as possible. And obviously we've got

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a lot of work to do on
that front. But you want your information

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to becoming you from people who are
experts in the field or who are in

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the case of let's say a war
zone, literally in the field, and

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as opposed to filtered through journalists who
are not experts in the field and who

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most of the time from probably ninety
nine percent of time are literally not in

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the scene. At the scene,
there's only a few reporter, sometimes only

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one reporter at the scene. So
now, in the past that it was

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the only way to have things work. That's why, you know, so

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the legacy structure in the past was
you had to have information filtered to media

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organizations and then too and then and
then they would decide what to publish,

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and they publish it, and then
people would read really a small subset of

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what was actually going on in the
world, and obviously a subset that was

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chosen by a handful of editors curated, Yeah, curated. So it's it's

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sort of if the editors weren't that
interested in the subject, you simply didn't

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care about it. So now that's
in the past, especially in a non

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Internet world, that's kind of how
things. There was really another way to

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do it. You didn't really have
a mechanism for connecting all of the humans.

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But now with the Internet and a
fast moving social media or what social

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media is terrible word, but fast
moving sort of platform, like like the

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X platform, you can actually get
have all of the you can get all

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the people out there that are on
the platform, reporting information, distilling it

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down, have people who are who
are world class experts in their field tell

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you exactly what's going on. I
mean, if you see, for example,

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the AI discussions on X are by
far the best relately, absolutely absolutely.

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You know, Elon we I conceived
of this open source research ecosystem that

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we've evolved in twenty twelve. I
never dreamed that Twitter at the time,

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it was for tweens and teens and
celebrities, and there's still some of those

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on BED. I never dreamed that
it would become our primary platform for giving

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away our research and having dialogue with
the people in the field out there who

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are innovating. You know, we're
getting information that no one else in the

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financial world doing it the traditional way
is getting just because we are engaging with

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these you know, with the innovators. So it's it's a marvelous platform.

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And I think it's the knowledge workers
platform. Yeah, hi, Elen,

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this is Jelly. Hey, how's
it going it? It would be great

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to learn more about how you're thinking
actually about the roadmap to expand X from

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where you see it today to where
you see it becoming and risks, challenges

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and also opportunities of that including AI
and how you see that that transition well

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along lines of what I was saying
earlier, the it's it's really true kind

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of create a group mind or collective
consciousness where every person is essentially a part

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of that group minor electical and is
kind of reporting information to the system,

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consuming information, giving their opinion on
it. And you can just think about

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like a giant brain basically, And
you know, I posted I think a

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few years ago that a neuron doesn't
feel like it's it doesn't know it's a

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neuron, So right, Uh,
you know, individuals on the system.

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Obviously you feel like an individual,
but actually you are actually part of a

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collective sort of group mind. And
and then you know, see if they

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say, well, what makes it
a better or worse? You know,

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collective consciousness, it's it's well ups
these feed is very important. How fast

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is information being transmitted? How is
is that information is the most interesting information

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being propagated to the the right other
people as quickly as possible. You know,

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how much noise is in the system. Noise would be information that is

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either not interesting. Uh, obviously
spam, scams, actual misinformation. But

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you know that that that that term
is overused, but just say, like

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just say information that that that that
is deviates from the truth meaningfully, because

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there's always this question of what is
the truth? You know, and it's

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like there's an old sort of police
saying, uh, you know, for

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any given crime, there are at
least three stories, the victim, the

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perpetrator in the truth, right,
you know, or you know, uh,

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the well that coursa movie Rassamon where
they the same event happens and you

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see that perceived completely differently by four
different people. So but nonetheless, one

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can still aspire to the truth and
have the least aspire to have the least

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amount of error. So so that's
that's really Uh, that's the main thing

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is is like how do we get
as many people as possible participating in providing

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information that's accurate correcting information that is
not accurate. And just if you think

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of it, sort of like it
from an information theory standpoint, this is

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like, I think the right way
to think about it. Think about it

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from an information theory standpoint. You
want to have what would make for the

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most effective group mind or collective consciousness, and it's it's like all the neurons

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all communicating as quickly as possible with
the lowest signles noise, and yeah,

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and there do you think you need
to enable users to put like skin in

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the game behind their messages in a
more frictionless way, as in, if

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I'm like within capital markets, I
can bet I can put capital to work,

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right, and I stand to lose
it if I'm wrong. Uh,

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And the information space and X is
it's kind of like a survival of the

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fittest, but kind of like the
marginal energy needed to put in for an

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individual tweet, I can't really change
that or an individual post? Is that

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like a direction to go. You
mean, like when you put something assign

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sort of a some amount of your
credits effectively you're yeah, I mean within

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prediction. Prediction markets work because people
are able to bet on one thing versus

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another. Like conceptually, if I'm
right about something, if the truth,

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if I if I get some kind
of like you know, more than just

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reputational cruel, but capital cruel for
being correct about something on X. Is

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that a way to kind of increase
essentially effective signal to noise within the network.

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Do you have a suggestion for how
that might be implemented? I mean,

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conceptually, you're the fact that I
can advertise on X, like I

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can promote a tweet, you know, is in some ways in instant atiation

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of that. But there's no mechanism
by which I effectively lose for being wrong,

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or maybe within the distribution algorithm there
is, but it just seems very

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kind of like a loose kind of
connection between whether or not I'm contributing positively

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to the network and whether or not
the network actually rewards me in some way,

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either financially or otherwise for contributing positively. Well, I mean, we

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are paying creators for you know,
for people who are posting on the system

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where that post is interesting and gets
a lot of views. So that's that's

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one way in which people are occurring
value. If you if you post something

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that's boring around uninteresting then just or
wrong whatever you peraps will get less views

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and thus earn less. You know, there's a there is this like very

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challenging problem of of bots and trolls, which is I think, I mean

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just tackling that and I think we've
made great strides, but just a long

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way to go. That is the
biggest source of noise is because the fundamental

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problem you have right now is that
it's it's quite easy to pass the are

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you a human test? You know, even if I mean basically open source

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AI at this point can pass are
you a human test? Spatter but I

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think out than most humans m hmm, so uh, and that's only going

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to become more widely available. So
you know you have to I think biased

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that the network too, ah have
basically raised the cost of manipulation and raise

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the cost of bots and trolls.
You cannot completely get rid of them,

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this is not possible, but you
can make it much harder and much more

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expensive, Like I mean having say
a drug enforcement agency like the or any

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kind of if making drugs legal does
it doesn't make the drugs disappear, It

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just makes them more expensive. So
you know, sometimes there's a false dipot

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of me of like, well,
it's all or nothing. No, you

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just you have to do things that
that dramatically increase the cost of noise in

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the system so that somebody can't spoil
up one hundred thousand or a million bots

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in a day and and then minigulate
the system. So this is why the

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you know, we've moved to sort
of a subscription, there's at least a

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small monthly payment, even even a
small amount, like if like three dollars

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a month is or so some some
small amount, it's still several orders of

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magnitude. If it raises the cost
of bots by several orders of magnitude,

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maybe by one thousand or ten thousand, so uh, and then it's not

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just the cost, it's not just
the dollar amount. But then you effectively

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piggyback on the payment system, so
payment authentication. So it's just it's just

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hard to find more credit cards to
misuse that like there's a natural cost in

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the black market for credit cards that
work. So so just just biasing things

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to where the subscribers, effectively for
premium users content is elevated above that of

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bought amplified content is I think a
very big deal. Sorry, And my

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prediction actually is that any given social
network that does not move in this direction

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will be swarmed with bots and and
will simply be overwhelmed. You know,

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I have an experience with that.
We all of a sudden, I guess

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bots were taking over. And this
was not on Twitter but on or on

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X but on Instagram and Facebook.
I mean, it was just all over

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the place. So we've already experienced
attacks like that. Can we stay on

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the X platform as a topic,
elon, but maybe take us a little

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bit more into the future about this
super app opportunity. Will you become a

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financial platform? Identification is and we're
already seeing you're still tipping I think on

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X. But are you going to
are you going to turn into a financial

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platform, which is where you started
your entrepreneurial journey many years ago? Is

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this still is this still on the
drawing board? Yeah? Absolutely, We're

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just waiting for the final approvals to
come through for the money transmitter licenses.

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Has just taken longer than expected to
get the money transmitter licenses. Yes,

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so I did see you have fifteen
or so now or is it more?

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I think we actually have a majority
of the states. Oh, I've been

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for this, but it's it's irrelevant
until California and New Yorker brewers. I

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see, I see, And are
there any showstoppers or it's just bureaucracy.

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It's just I mean, really just
I guess bureaucracy. You know the thing.

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Things were obviously quite chaotic, especially
for the first few months, so

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you know, it's not entirely the
fault. We were bit late in submitting

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our you know, money transmitter licenses, and I essentially thought I thought we

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had done it, but we had
not done it until around the middle of

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this year. So I think we'll
probably get our approvals early next year,

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and so I would expect payments to
roll out. I would be surprised if

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we aren't if it takes us longer
than the middle of next year to roll

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out payments. So I'm not aware
of any any showstoppers. Is just kind

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of working through the system. Yeah, that'll be exciting, if you don't

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mind, Elan, I'd like to
actually make an announcement on X since you

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know, we learned in the market
that once once you say something on exit,

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it actually becomes public information from the
SEC's point of view. We've seen

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that tested comes and so I just
wanted to announce that we're pretty excited that

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for the first time, beginning in
January, our venture fund will be available

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on so far right now, if
you want to buy our venture fund,

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the Titan app is the way to
go. That's an Andresen Horoitz funded company

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and they've been great, but we
are expanding and you know, we'd love

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again in this movement towards democratization of
VC if any other platforms want to participate

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in this movement. You know,
we're not exclusive, so and we're very

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excited about the possibilities. So thank
you for letting me do that. And

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it's also a big part of bringing
the broader base of a huge number of

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non accredited investors whould love to enter
companies like your Zealand of course, and

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we are already with the Ark Venture
Fund in SpaceX and X, and we'd

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love to do others and really allowing
you know, obviously your companies are extremely

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well funded, but for many companies
that don't have access to capital necessarily at

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the scale you've built without going public. So we think that's a really exciting

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potential for companies to stay private for
longer. And really that sounds great.

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Yeah, it's really really cool.
I mean, the burden of being a

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poly company really has increased over time
such that it has it's somewhat persuaded a

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lot of companies from being public,
and I really frankly would recommend companies don't

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go public unless they absolutely have to. So, yeah, do you think

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do you think that going back to
like the Model three ramp, when you

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had customers and shareholders going out and
facilitating delivery of vehicles, do you think

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that could have happened without people having
like skin in the game in the same

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way. Yeah. Absolutely, Most
most of the people who help we're not

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shoulders. That's interesting. I mean
that I don't know, you know,

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Elon, so many people have come
up to me and all of us over

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the years because we were out there, you know, pounding the table,

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uh for Tesla against you know,
against the traditional financial world, and they

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they read our research on Tesla and
and bought into it. And so many

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people have come up and said thank
you for doing that research, alerting us

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to the opportunities. What's happened to
the public markets, Elon is I think

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is I think they're kind of broken. I agree with you. I think

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part of it is regulatory, but
part of it is the way the traditional

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financial world works. And I saw, I've seen this time and again,

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is if a company is not in
a broad based benchmark, then then financial

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analysts and portfolio managers very often say, okay, not relevant, not relevant

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to me. Not in an index. I'm not competing against it. That's

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how broken it is. Instead of
focusing on the future, and you know

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which companies are going to be transformative
and are going to scale brilliantly, they're

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very nicely situated in the past,
you know, in stocks that are where

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they are in benchmarks because of past
performance. That's the other thing that's happened

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here. Sure, but it's important
we changed that. Elon and Tesla,

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it has been a change maker in
that regard. Sure, you didn't get

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into an index because of the way
they construct them until Tesla was five hundred

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billion dollars, So a lot of
it was pretty crazy. You know,

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how many more, how many companies
are bigger than that. You know,

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it's just crazy, but you did, you made it, and you opened

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people's eyes. And we're trying to
change this shift away from passive back to

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active so that there is an efficient
allocation of capital. Yeah, you're touching

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on a very important point, which
is that I think the percentage of the

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market that is passive is simply is
too great at this point. So at

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the end of the day, somebody
actually has to make an active decision that

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the passive investors are riding on the
decisions of the active investors. And so

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the passive passive you know, investments
like index funds whatnot, are they're like

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a an They're just that they're an
amplifier. It's like that, you know,

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like an electric guitar app or something. So, but but you don't

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want that amplifier gain to be too
high or you get essentially massive movements of

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the stock based on the decisions of
maybe four or five active major stock pickers.

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Well, you know, actually it's
it's it's a little more complicated.

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So if you if you well,
yeah, if you if you look,

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if you were in a risk off
market, a bear market like we were

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in twenty two, what actually happens
is these managers are very fearful and they

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just get closer and closer to their
benchmarks, and they sell the stocks that

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the kind of stocks that we're invested
in because we're completely active, we don't

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we're benchmark agnostic. We just we
just don't even look at them. We're

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all about the future. So that's
in a risk of market, it punishes

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stocks that are not in indexes more
than otherwise would be the case. And

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then to your point, it rewards
stocks that you know, in a risk

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one period that that that are growing
very quickly like yours. And as you

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say, yes, there's a pylon
effect. If they get into a benchmark,

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now everybody has to consider them.
So it's really it's it's a really

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distorted way of that. The public
equity markets have evolved. Yeah, I

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mean essentially getting into any kind of
index will pass up fund well I think

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increase the volatility significantly because you know, just now it's amplified that stock's not

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amplified by by the passive. So
you know, and I think Bogo was

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was it was a good idea to
create, you know, bank guard and

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passives, but it's gone. It's
just gone too far it has, so

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you just don't want to have the
amplify sort of the the amp is turned

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up too high, there's a way
to think of it. So there should

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be more more active and less less
passive. Totally agree and absolutely And the

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other thing that's happening, I didn't
know where we're going to go here,

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elon. But the other thing that
really is gripping the markets is you know,

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seventy five percent plus UH of training
every day is algorithmic, and we

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see they're very simple algorithms. You
know, in a bear market, okay,

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do they have cash? Are they
burning cash? And and those two

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variables will will dominate the stock action. So yeah, we've watched this over

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the last three years. It's a
very simplistic way of managing money, and

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I really do think it has led
to the most massive miss allocation of capital

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in history. A lot more private
companies should be public, but we understand

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why they don't go public because of
the kind of behavior you're subjected to.

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And now you know all about it, right, yeah, I mean the

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regulatory burden of being public is way
too high, and then the legal burden

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of being public is also way too
high. So if you're public, you're

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just going to be sued NonStop by
these class action law firms with their fake

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plaintiffs, as is the case with
Tesla. We're just you know, constantly

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being sued by you know, I
said what the media will portray as a

321
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member of the class, but in
fact we're just being sued by class action

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law firms with with puppets like that
drives me crazy. It happens, you

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know, it's happening. But the
problem that we're talking about here is non

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accredited investors have not been invited to
the venture capital party because they don't make

325
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enough money or they are they're not
wealthy enough, which we think is quite

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a regressive tax. Yes, absolutely, I fully agree. That's why we're

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democratizing venture capital by not taking a
carry ourselves so that we can offer our

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fund for as little as five hundred
dollars to anyone anyone. That sounds great,

329
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Well, I think more people should
take you up on that. Yeah,

330
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there is. I mean, most
most of the the vast majority of

331
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companies are obviously private, they're not
public. Yes, And and you're right

332
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that that it is somewhat of a
regressive tax that makes it difficult for the

333
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:06.599
average citizen to participate in the outside
of those companies, because once you go

334
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i think above twenty five hundred shareholders, non employee shareholders, then you're forced

335
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to go public. So the reason
that SpaceX cannot simply offer stock to anyone

336
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:22.279
who wants to own it is because
of that twenty five hundred direct shareholder limit.

337
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:26.319
Right, So do you think do
you think that within SpaceX are just

338
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.640
thinking about Tesla versus SpaceX? Do
you think you've been enabled to take more

339
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:37.240
appropriate risks within SpaceX than you have
within Tesla because of the public versus private

340
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Absolutely. I mean at SpaceX,
we never think about what the quarter.

341
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.279
We never think about it, and
we don't think, we don't think about

342
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:53.720
the stock price. So you know, there's there's a lot of pressure,

343
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:57.240
like an immense pressure on a public
company to not have a bad quarter.

344
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So this can act actually result in
a less efficient operation where you're going to

345
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:10.400
great lengths at the end of a
quarter to not disappoint people. And you

346
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:17.319
know that's just that's just how it
goes. So uh and and then you

347
00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:22.079
know you've also got a lot sort
of a long term challenge with public markets

348
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.680
where a lot of the analysts following
companies have a time horizon that is maybe

349
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:30.200
only a year or two. It's
you know, rarely more than a few

350
00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:37.640
years. So and so they literally
don't care because then their incentive structure is

351
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:42.079
a short term. They do not
care about what your long term outcome will

352
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:45.119
be because their careers dependent on how
you do in the short term. Elon,

353
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:52.960
you have been great at I think
standing up to short term oriented shareholders.

354
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That's one of the scores in our
scoring system as we're evaluating companies.

355
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:04.160
Is this a visionary management and will
they stand up to short term shareholders who

356
00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:08.359
want their profits now, their dividends, their share repurchases, Will they invest

357
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aggressively enough in the future. And
I think you've done a great job.

358
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.599
Well, thank you and credit to
the test the team as well. So

359
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but that that said, we at
Tesla, we do go to great lengths

360
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to ensure that our quarter is good
as that that we don't disappoint because it's

361
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not so much about the it's just
that we feel like we have a sort

362
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of you know, moral obligation too. You know, I don't know that

363
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to not have a bad quarter and
disappoint people. So we you know,

364
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:49.799
the number of New Year's Eves that
I've spent in delivery centers is like,

365
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.000
I don't know of six. I
don't know seven. I don't know I

366
00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:58.559
blast camp how many times I was
in I was delivering forest until like basically,

367
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but not on Year's Eve personally.
So, you know, has it

368
00:34:07.400 --> 00:34:10.440
done any Let me just ask the
question the other way, SpaceX. You

369
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.400
you feel like you have more degrees
of freedom being public. Has it done

370
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:27.840
anything positive for you? For Tesla? I mean, well, it did

371
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:30.320
allow us to clean up our capital
structure, which was overly complex as a

372
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:37.880
private company and have a single class
of common so were really getting things were

373
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getting quite unwieldy with the private company
capital structure. There was obviously the capital

374
00:34:43.800 --> 00:34:49.440
availability in the public markets, which
is a lot more than the private markets.

375
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And a car company is capital intensive, so I guess access to Ladge

376
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.199
has capital and cleaning up what had
become an extremely complex your private company share

377
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:09.280
structure were two, you know,
major things. Certainly, it was also

378
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good to give access to the company
stock to a small shareholders, you know,

379
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so those are those are good things, but you know, I think

380
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it's also been a tremendous distraction as
well on the downside. So and you

381
00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.199
know, there's just a lot of
a lot of overhead just there's more time

382
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:37.079
that's required to manage a public company
than a private company. So in the

383
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:44.159
past you've talked about potentially I guess
listing Starlank or doing something on the space

384
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.519
X within the public capital markets.
But do you think that that's actually not

385
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:51.880
something that you need to do or
anticipate doing across all of your companies outside

386
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:59.920
of Tesla. At this point,
I don't think it's worth going public and

387
00:36:00.039 --> 00:36:07.440
ntil you have maybe an extremely stable
and predictable revenue stream. So if your

388
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:15.320
cash flows are extremely stable and predictable
at that point, going public is less

389
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:19.719
of an issue because you know,
you're just not going to have these big

390
00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:25.920
gyrations. So you know, isn't
that ironic? Like the point of the

391
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:31.159
equity markets is to is to provide
like perpetual capital for capital intensive businesses,

392
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.719
right, And what you're describing as
a business that actually doesn't really need equity

393
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:38.719
capital necessarily, you could you could
debt fund it to some degree if you

394
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:46.079
have very stable cash flows, right, I mean I can equity or debt

395
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:51.559
fund just about anything. At this
point, you know, the You know,

396
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.679
it's worth noting that in all my
old companies, across all the years,

397
00:36:57.320 --> 00:37:00.960
I've never lost money for an investor
even once, and this is now

398
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.119
over one hundred financing rounds. Now, of course I cannot stop people from

399
00:37:05.159 --> 00:37:08.559
selling when they should not sell,
but I have never driven them to a

400
00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:19.320
bad outcome. So that's a pretty
good betting average. And obviously, when

401
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:25.519
you've treated capital well, then capital
if it treats you well in turn,

402
00:37:27.639 --> 00:37:34.239
and so you know, it's it's
basically very easy for me to raise almost

403
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:38.679
any amount of capital. Frankly,
So now, of course I need to

404
00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:45.760
make sure that traffic stays intact and
not get complacent or entitled. But you

405
00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:52.639
know, obviously I do not have
a need to to raise capital, and

406
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:57.760
in fact a lot of in most
cases I don't really need even for say

407
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.400
like Boring Company or Neural Link.
I mean, I can funded myself entirely.

408
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:07.159
But I think it is good to
have other investors. Why why why

409
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:12.039
even bother with with outside shareholders at
all? It would be simpler to you

410
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:17.079
could take whatever risk you want without
having to answer to anybody. Well,

411
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.599
I do take a lot of risks
your way. I don't know, I

412
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:29.239
think it's I think it's good to
have I don't know, I think it's

413
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.719
good. It's good to have other
investors. I mean, I think that

414
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:40.480
you know, each investor you ad
is an ally it's good to have more

415
00:38:40.519 --> 00:38:51.239
allies. I think it also,
you know, establishes that I'm not delusional

416
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:55.639
in the valuation of the companies.
So if if others are prepared to invest

417
00:38:55.719 --> 00:39:04.719
at a particular value, then then
then you know, I'm not the sole

418
00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:08.159
just decider of what the value of
the company is. Others are deciding what

419
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.559
the value of the companies are.
You know, it's it's sort of an

420
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:15.800
outside assessment of the value of the
company. And and that you know,

421
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:28.960
there is also a need to uh, you know, provide liquidity so uh

422
00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:36.599
to to to people at the company. So I believe in providing stock to

423
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:42.960
the people of the company, the
employees and creators of the company. It's

424
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:47.280
important to provide them stock to have
the incentive be aligned with the company outcome

425
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:52.000
and uh and then you know,
you the various points want to gain liquidity

426
00:39:52.079 --> 00:40:00.519
so that you you want to then
establish an outside valuation. And you know,

427
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:05.360
so there's not it's not just me
deciding it and enable liquidity for those

428
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:09.119
who've been awarded stock and options at
the companies, and and and generally been

429
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:15.800
my approach to award everyone at the
company stuff. You know, A tells

430
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:23.199
that we've awarded. We awarded everyone
stock you no matter how junior they were.

431
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:30.719
So that actually obviously made a lot
of people millionaires. I think I

432
00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:37.920
think Teslam may have created more employee
millionaires than any company in history. Yeah,

433
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:40.519
so I would say, like,
if there's not a company that's done

434
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.840
has created more employee millionaires than Tela. You know, there's it's maybe there's

435
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.320
one, maybe it's there's one or
two others. But but really the SURE

436
00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:57.719
tests around one hundred and forty thousand
people, and you know, I think

437
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.440
I think we might be number one. I think I think you are.

438
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.960
So I'm conscious of time here and
thank you so much. Elon. We

439
00:41:06.280 --> 00:41:12.079
Frank Downing, our director of research
on Next Generation Internet, asked Grok,

440
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:15.639
what questions do people want? Kathy
Wood to ask Elon Musk to Okay,

441
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:22.400
basis, and we would be remiss
if we didn't, if we didn't summarize

442
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.519
this first and then let you take
it where you'd like it. And it

443
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:30.159
basically said, it seems that this
is Grock talking. Seems that people are

444
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:35.920
even here about the latest developments and
AI's I mean, in Tesla's AI technologies

445
00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:40.480
we definitely are, such as FSD
twelve and the next generation platform for Robotaxi.

446
00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:45.559
They're also interested in learning more about
the company's plans for the Optimist project.

447
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:51.199
Additionally, there is a lot of
curiosity surrounding Elon Musk's thought on the

448
00:41:51.639 --> 00:41:54.480
AI space, as well as his
take on the future of bitcoin. I

449
00:41:54.480 --> 00:42:00.239
guess that was a little repetitive AI
there, but these topics are sure to

450
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:05.880
spark some engaging discussions. That's that's
Grock for you. Okay, well Crok,

451
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:16.079
that's pretty good. Yeah, that's
pretty good. So AI and and

452
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.159
I do. I do have more
time than you know, if you would

453
00:42:21.199 --> 00:42:23.119
like to go alonger longer than fifteen
minutes, we can go alonger than fifteen

454
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:30.599
minutes, right, I mean trying
to still my thoughts here on AI,

455
00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:34.239
because I could really talk four hours
on AI. You know, we both

456
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:42.159
Charlie and Brett are steeped in it, so is Frank and of course Tasha,

457
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:46.360
she's done our work on autonomous but
one of the one of the things

458
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:53.719
we've been very curious about is open
source versus closed AI? And I don't

459
00:42:53.760 --> 00:43:00.559
know if you've seen I don't know
if you've seen the chart that Frank and

460
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:07.719
Joseph did on our team, but
they they drew a line. They basically

461
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:17.199
calculated performance improvements in both the closed
closed or private AI companies and models large

462
00:43:17.280 --> 00:43:22.679
language models, and then the open
ones. And open is behind closed,

463
00:43:22.679 --> 00:43:30.519
but the steep the performance is improving
at a steeper rate than closed. Do

464
00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:36.679
you have any thoughts about that and
about open versus closed generally when it comes

465
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:42.639
to AI. Sure, well,
I mean, I think a lot of

466
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:45.480
people know that. You know,
I was instrumental in the creation of Opening

467
00:43:45.559 --> 00:43:50.119
I and the impact. I came
up with the name of the Opening open

468
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:54.199
I means open source, yes,
and thought it as an open source nonprofit

469
00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:59.440
And the reason I wanted to create
it was to create establish a counterweight to

470
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.679
Google deep Mind, because it was
a unipolar world at that point. It

471
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:07.800
was, you know, Google deep
Mind had probably two thirsd of more of

472
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:16.119
the top AI talent and of course
fast computing and financial resources. And at

473
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:20.880
the time I was close friends with
Larry Page and it did not seem to

474
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.679
me that he was taking AI safety
seriously. So I felt there needed to

475
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:31.000
be some, like I said,
some counterweights, some competitor to sort of

476
00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:39.440
the Google Deep Mind situation. So
prankically instrumental in Crain, the company was

477
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:47.119
recruiting Iliosiskaer, which was a back
and forth thing where actually Eli have changed

478
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.599
his mind a few times and ultimately
decided to come to Opening Eye. And

479
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:59.719
uh so I won that recruiting battle, and that is actually what caused Larry

480
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:07.119
Page to stop being friends with me. Frankly so, but now ironically,

481
00:45:07.119 --> 00:45:14.920
because fate loves irony, Opening Eye
is a super closed source and and for

482
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:21.079
maximum profit it's it should be renamed
closed for maximum profit AI, it won't

483
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:24.920
be more accurate. So because that's
that's you know, it's literally the polar

484
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:30.280
opposite of what of how it started. I guess I'm I generally have a

485
00:45:30.320 --> 00:45:37.840
bias in favor of open source,
and you can see that certainly with the

486
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:42.960
X platform, where we've open sourced
the algorithm U and for for example,

487
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.480
for community notes, we open source
not just the algorithm, but all the

488
00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:50.719
data as well, so you can
see exactly how a note was created,

489
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.840
can be ordered by third parties.
There's no there's no mystery, nothing hidden

490
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:59.760
at all, I think. So
that's one of that seems to be one

491
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.519
of the confusing things about open source
as pertains to large language models. It's

492
00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:06.119
it's it's not as simple, and
I think this has been lost in some

493
00:46:06.159 --> 00:46:08.559
of the debate as just open sourcing
the code. It's open sources the shades

494
00:46:08.559 --> 00:46:14.000
of gray here of course, with
parameter, weights, data, there's there's

495
00:46:14.039 --> 00:46:15.440
all of that spectrum, and I
think that's been maybe lost from some of

496
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:20.039
the debate. So it's great to
hear, Yeah, there's there's actually a

497
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:25.199
very little code, very little actual
traditional lines of software. Certainly at the

498
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:30.920
at the first level, there's there's
very little. It's a remarkably tiny number

499
00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:36.199
of lines of code. So it's
it's just these giant, you know,

500
00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:43.960
waste files and you know what your
hyperparameter you know, numbers are and it's

501
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:50.920
basically a giant Comma separated value file. So I was find amusing to contemplate

502
00:46:50.960 --> 00:46:54.920
that perhaps our digital guard will be
a CSP file, you know, like

503
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:02.079
and and then you make a you
see fee file that has maybe more weights

504
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:08.199
and the weights are better, and
then you're pretty much delete the old one.

505
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:17.760
So just the AI is evolving and
deleting its prior self constantly, So

506
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.280
we're going to worship a giant tel
file essentially. That's pretty kind of I

507
00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:27.079
mean, you need a very big
Yeah, it's a lot of cells,

508
00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:31.800
but it's really just a bunch of
numbers. And then those numbers are they're

509
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:37.119
getting smaller in magnitude too, you
know, going from f P sixteen to

510
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:43.760
fp F thirty two to P sixteen
to in sixteen to into eight and now

511
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:51.840
it looks like things are training towards
mostly into four, so they're not particularly

512
00:47:52.079 --> 00:48:00.119
large numbers. Yeah. Yeah,
I'm not sure if I'm answering, I'm

513
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:06.280
gonna asking a question, but I
mean, I think it's true that closed

514
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:10.599
source is not that far, like
from a time standpoint, not that far

515
00:48:10.639 --> 00:48:21.280
ahead of of a of a source. But let's say, and if you

516
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:30.599
assume open sources, do you have
six months because of the immense rate of

517
00:48:30.639 --> 00:48:37.480
improvement of AI, that's six months
is a is actually a massive amount of

518
00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:44.679
time, I mean, or at
least the delta in an exponentially improving situation,

519
00:48:45.039 --> 00:48:52.800
six months, Well, I think
feel like an eternity. So I

520
00:48:52.840 --> 00:49:00.039
think closed will outperform open by a
meaningful amount at any given point in time.

521
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:06.000
And given the Yeah, I'm just
gonna say, given the questions we

522
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.760
were talking about before about truth and
not truth, and do you think in

523
00:49:07.840 --> 00:49:15.199
ten years' time a I will have
been a net truth improver or detractor from

524
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:21.159
where we are today, I think
it will be, well speaking for at

525
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:27.360
least for Groark, I think it
will be a significant truth improver. That

526
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.239
that is the three. Our goal
is to be maximum truth seeking, maximally

527
00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:39.840
curious, minimizing the the error between
between perceived reality and describe reality and actual

528
00:49:39.840 --> 00:49:46.920
reality, and always acknowledging the error, not being too confident about it.

529
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.960
So I and I think there will
be a competition for truth, and you

530
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:59.679
will go. People will tend towards
the one that they think is most accurate.

531
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:05.440
So and if there's at least one
AI that is aiming for maximum accuracy,

532
00:50:05.480 --> 00:50:08.280
I think it pushes all of the
AI is to aim for maximum accuracy,

533
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:19.000
just as with with the X platform
FK twitters. As you know,

534
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:23.480
X pushes for maximum truth and accuracy. It's not forces the hand of others.

535
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:28.880
They the others now also have to
do that. Right, The truth

536
00:50:29.079 --> 00:50:32.840
the truth arms race among the cs
fees and is Yeah, is one of

537
00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:36.840
the one of our thesis I think
with our is that Teesla is one of

538
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:40.599
the most undervalued AI companies there is
because of the insane amount of data you've

539
00:50:40.599 --> 00:50:45.199
got on all or you know,
to feed into autonomous I don't know if

540
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.320
there's any commentary on that because I
think, you know, obviously, with

541
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:52.079
the rise of these l M companies
which are by and large working off essentially

542
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:57.599
available data that is not proprietary,
the benefits coming to the companies like Teesla

543
00:50:57.639 --> 00:51:01.840
that understand how to use the benefits
but do have these enormous propriety data pools,

544
00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:10.000
seems like that's going to be the
next frontier. Yeah, I think

545
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:16.480
that's accurate, an accurate description.
It is one of the leading A companies

546
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:20.199
in the world, and with respect
to real world AI, it is obviously,

547
00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:27.559
by fear and away the leader.
So you know, the what large

548
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:34.079
language model with phrase long large language
model l M is massively overused. But

549
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:44.199
what what I do see happening is
somewhat of a convergence towards intelligence. You

550
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:52.079
know, it's just like, really
to make full self driving work, you

551
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:59.400
kind of need baby a g I
in the car because you need to understand

552
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:04.320
reality and is messy and complicated,
and just as as a side effect,

553
00:52:04.840 --> 00:52:08.000
the car AI has to be able
to read, for example, has to

554
00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:12.639
be able to read read read aubitrary
science as a little just a little side

555
00:52:12.639 --> 00:52:22.840
effect of understanding reality in every language. So you know, I think that

556
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:28.880
everything is coming down to, you
know, different layers of transformers and diffusion,

557
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:36.320
and then how you put together the
transformers and in diffusion. That's that's

558
00:52:36.320 --> 00:52:39.360
what That's what I made. That
that's somewhat niche AI joke on the X

559
00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:44.039
platform. Who do you think will
be present in twenty thirty two? Transformers

560
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.599
or diffusion? Do you think that? Do you think that switching to full

561
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:57.960
stack AI for for Tesla's full self
driving reduces the kind of forecast error for

562
00:52:58.119 --> 00:53:02.239
you in terms of when the problem
will be solved as in you famously have

563
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.039
you know, said it's a your
way for a few years now. Do

564
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.599
you think that like actually line of
sight wherever it ends up, you'll have

565
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:15.199
a better line of sight on when
you're going to cross a particular threshold of

566
00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:22.039
performance where it can go without human
intervention. Yeah, I mean the cars

567
00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:29.760
are really incredibly good at driving itself. So now, especially if you say,

568
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:37.039
like okay, drive in California,
which is you know, both generally

569
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:42.079
easy driving because you don't have heavy
rain and snow and that kind of thing

570
00:53:42.519 --> 00:53:47.960
in most parts of California, and
tails the engineering is primarily in California,

571
00:53:49.079 --> 00:53:52.320
so you're gonna get it's gonna overfit
for solving California. But if you're just

572
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:57.320
driving to stay around Palo Alto,
the probability that you'll need an intervention at

573
00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:01.119
this point is incredibly low. In
fact, even if you're driving through San

574
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:06.519
Francisco, the probably intervention at this
point is very low. So we're really

575
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:13.400
just going through a march of nines, Like how many nines of reliability do

576
00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:17.800
you need before somebody does not need
to monitor the system? You know,

577
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:25.719
it's so interesting GM basically shutting down
Cruise. Tasha has done the work on

578
00:54:27.800 --> 00:54:35.840
safety and it seems that Tesla with
FSDV has an accidents once every three point

579
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:42.280
two million miles. At Tesla without
FSD six hundred thousand miles. The average

580
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:45.960
vehicle on the road I think this
is surface streets one hundred and ninety thousand,

581
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.280
and Cruz was forty thousand, so
there really was a safety issue there.

582
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:58.199
Do you worry that it has potentially
set back regulators, you know,

583
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:09.719
from consider ring autonomous transportation or is
this data, given that accidents on the

584
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:15.719
streets have gone up in the last
ten years fairly dramatically actually because it texted,

585
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:21.079
do you think do you think that
regulators are going to look at the

586
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.800
data which, I mean, we've
done the research, Tasha's do other research

587
00:55:24.840 --> 00:55:35.440
on this and is pretty compelling.
Well, you know, our regulator in

588
00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:39.599
the US is the End Enforcement Division
of NITSA, for whom I actually have

589
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:46.519
a lot of respect. I think
those guys are they really have I mean,

590
00:55:46.639 --> 00:55:50.519
they're they're quite I think actually,
in my experience thus far, have

591
00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:55.639
been quite sensible. You know that
that that doesn't mean that they're on't silly

592
00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:00.880
things that happen from time to time, but they've really been quite sensible because

593
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:05.639
they see the actual truth of the
accidents, and they see the fact that

594
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:10.199
they're on the order of forty thousand
people killed every year in motivical accidents,

595
00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:20.920
and so they actually do they do
care about the safety statistics, and they

596
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:27.800
do recognize that there's always going to
be some risk with cars. Uh,

597
00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:31.280
they're well aware of the fact that
that our cars are much safer than other

598
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:37.480
vehicles. So you know, we
really I mean, there's been a few

599
00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:42.239
things where, you know, maybe
we have had some disagreements, but you

600
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.559
know, like like for example,
coming to an absolute full stop at stop

601
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:51.519
streets even when the you know,
it's very clear there are no cars anywhere

602
00:56:51.519 --> 00:56:55.599
in sight that could possibly cause an
impact. No, no, no cars,

603
00:56:55.599 --> 00:57:04.639
no pedestrians, completely clear and actually
almost no humans stop at stop streets

604
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:07.800
a stop signs. Almost no humans
actually come to a full stop that typically

605
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:09.360
let me think they came to full
stop, but typically they'll be going at

606
00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:14.400
least a few miles an hour,
so that you know, they said,

607
00:57:14.400 --> 00:57:15.599
well, the Lord does say that
you have to stop at a stop street.

608
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:21.000
Well even though no, almost no
humans do. So that actually created

609
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:27.440
a bit of a challenge for us
because we had to select the rare cases

610
00:57:27.480 --> 00:57:32.320
were from the fleet where humans actually
stopped at stop streets at stop scigns,

611
00:57:34.119 --> 00:57:40.039
so and then actually get our QA
team to stop at stop streets and then

612
00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:45.559
overfit the stopping stopping at stop signs
in order to get the car to stop

613
00:57:45.559 --> 00:57:51.639
at stop science. Because it was
quite a bit behave like a sort of

614
00:57:51.880 --> 00:57:53.840
a good, normal human driver who
does not stop at stuff signs. So,

615
00:57:54.199 --> 00:57:59.679
you know, we had a disagreement
there on it, but we ultimately,

616
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:04.960
you know, have made the car
stop at stop signs, even though

617
00:58:04.960 --> 00:58:09.519
it's a lit annoying. So but
you know, overwhelmingly, you know,

618
00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:13.440
that's one of the things in the
media will try to create this that that

619
00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:17.559
I'm some sort of lawbreaking maverick who
just does what he wants and doesn't care

620
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:24.039
about legal matters. This is actually
not true. Of the literally millions of

621
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:28.199
laws that I am subject to in
my company's the subject to there are a

622
00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:32.599
handful over the years that we've disagreed
with almost but the vast majority ninety nine

623
00:58:32.639 --> 00:58:38.079
point I don't know, nine percent
of laws and regulations we do a buy

624
00:58:38.159 --> 00:58:42.760
bine and we do agree with,
well, maybe maybe we don't agree with.

625
00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:46.079
We certainly a buy bye. You
know, there's once in a while

626
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:52.039
the gout disagreement, but it's it's
really minor. And but if you sum

627
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:58.880
up the disagreements across over the you
know, twenty years, it can just

628
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:01.639
sound like a lot. But but
in fact, my companies are incredibly low

629
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:08.360
abiding. So that's the that's the
that's truth of it. Anyway, I

630
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:13.119
think I think it'll be I think
it'll be fine from a regulatory standpoint.

631
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:21.920
When we can show that there's even
completely without supervision, there is a massive

632
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:28.280
statistical case for self driving being actually
safer than if someone had their hands on

633
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:31.639
the wheel, or was even potentially
having their hands in wheel, then I

634
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:37.800
think the regulators will accept that.
You know, it's been really interesting as

635
00:59:38.000 --> 00:59:45.920
a we were watching the breakthroughs as
everybody has in AI, and we had

636
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:53.280
agreed with you. Our original our
original research had autonomous mobility in pretty much

637
00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:58.760
full force. This was our original
research by now. But if we didn't

638
00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:05.039
have the breaks truths in a I
that that we've seen, particularly transformer architecture,

639
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:09.679
it wouldn't have been possible, right, But we didn't know that.

640
01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:17.000
Is that how you're viewing it now? Well, it's certainly true that transformers

641
01:00:17.559 --> 01:00:27.079
are transformational. Yes, so,
uh, you know, pretty much everyone's

642
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:34.199
using transformers, and it's really just
how many transformers. What kind of transformers

643
01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:40.360
are you using? Order aggressive transformers
which are very memory bound with intensive you

644
01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:45.880
know, there's but you I think
you really I'm not sure you can really

645
01:00:45.920 --> 01:00:51.199
do AI without transformers in a meaningful
way. Diffusion is also very important.

646
01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:59.440
So I mean it just really looks
like a GI is some combination of transformers

647
01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:07.880
and diffusion. That's interesting. Does
diffusion help elon and the things that transformers

648
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:10.800
are necessarily not necessarily that good at
yet, like planning and remembering rather than

649
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:19.840
sort of a current state. Uh, My, transformers are important for all

650
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:25.559
aspects of AI. Yeah, I
mean, computers are very good at remembering

651
01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:31.239
things. Your phone remembers the video
that you took down to the last pixel,

652
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:36.800
whereas you know, most humans cannot
remember who they met last week.

653
01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:45.159
So memory is the easiest. I
mean, we were already outsourced memory to

654
01:01:45.280 --> 01:01:53.079
computers in that Like you say,
how much of human knowledge is in digital

655
01:01:53.199 --> 01:02:06.000
form versus in I contained in human
neurons. It's overwhelmingly in silicon rather than

656
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:14.519
biological neurons, right, So I
mean, and there's there's I mean,

657
01:02:14.559 --> 01:02:20.079
I think it's always you know,
it's good to think of. Like I

658
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.280
tried to consider one of the most
fundamental ratios. This is like in physics,

659
01:02:24.280 --> 01:02:30.159
you always thinking about trying to looking
at fundamental ratios and some of the

660
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:34.119
you know, one of the fundamental
ratios is the ratio of digital to biological

661
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:43.000
compute just you know, just just
in rural compute and how much, and

662
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:47.280
the ratio of digital memory to biological
memory. So you know, at what

663
01:02:47.360 --> 01:02:52.320
point it's that's like I think at
this point, I think we're probably over

664
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:58.000
ninety nine percent of all memory is
digital as opposed to biological. So you've

665
01:02:58.000 --> 01:03:01.679
got over I think over one hundred
digital to biological ratio, and memory at

666
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:07.599
this point trending towards a thousand,
you know, and many or is married

667
01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:17.480
to beyond that. Then then you've
got the digital biological compute ratio. And

668
01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:23.280
since the number of humans is more
or less constant, I'm worried about it.

669
01:03:23.559 --> 01:03:28.199
You know, humans declining quite significantly
in the years to come because the

670
01:03:28.199 --> 01:03:32.639
birth rate is so low. But
you know, so so human human computer

671
01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:37.599
is more or less it looks like
a flat line versus time, whereas the

672
01:03:37.679 --> 01:03:49.599
digital compute is exponential, right,
And you know, at some point it's

673
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:53.400
that that will also be above one
hundred, meaning more than ninety nine percent

674
01:03:53.440 --> 01:04:00.639
of all compute will be digital instead
of biological. Right, And if we're

675
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.000
not there already, we will be
within a year or two. Although it's

676
01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:09.960
amazing how much data biology can store. I reckon, I believe it.

677
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.679
It's estimated that a gram of dry
DNA can store between four and five hundred

678
01:04:13.719 --> 01:04:17.880
exabytes. So maybe this bill things
to learn from biology. But yes,

679
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:23.440
incredible the pace of change. Yeah, I mean, if you encode memories

680
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:29.800
in DNA like a ticker tape,
then the DNA memory potential is amounts.

681
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:33.400
But I'm not sure that's actually what's
happening, or if it is, it's

682
01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:41.719
I don't know. I'm not sure
why my memory is so terrible. But

683
01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:44.800
actually, I mean your memory in
terms of the raw details, like you

684
01:04:44.800 --> 01:04:48.480
have an amazing search function, right, it's kind of like yeah, well

685
01:04:48.559 --> 01:04:54.840
for for any I mean I would
argue kind of in some ways like the

686
01:04:55.119 --> 01:05:02.760
transformer architecture enables effective search of a
very very broad amount of data, and

687
01:05:03.039 --> 01:05:10.239
or that's or it's like data compression. It seems like the yes, we

688
01:05:10.320 --> 01:05:15.480
have there's many more like data bytes
and coded are gigabytes and coded and disk.

689
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:21.400
But but actually being able to effectively
search that space is pretty still primitive

690
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:27.199
with compute, at least at large
scale relative to humans ability to access information.

691
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:33.320
I mean, it's still some things
that humans be better than computers.

692
01:05:33.880 --> 01:05:39.360
I mean, if you say,
like computers that have not yet discovered any

693
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:45.239
fundamental physics, but humans have discovered
a lot of fundamental physics. The computers

694
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:53.199
have not yet invented a useful technology. Humans have invented many useful, useful

695
01:05:53.199 --> 01:06:01.480
technologies. So you know, do
you think that do you ascribe to the

696
01:06:01.519 --> 01:06:08.639
notion that, like you, essentially
training AI systems on language is not enough

697
01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:11.679
and that you have to have some
kind of embodied source of data, like

698
01:06:11.719 --> 01:06:18.119
through an optimist robot to actually get
kind of the raw learning in that AI

699
01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:30.079
system would need to understand fundamental physics. Yeah, so that's what I think

700
01:06:30.199 --> 01:06:35.400
is coming. I think I think
what's coming is is a understanding fundamental physics

701
01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:48.000
and and AI inventing new technologies.
It definitely definitely feels like rather than even

702
01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:53.840
though some things now apparently past the
cheering test, most importantly pussing the money

703
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:57.760
penny test, as in kind of
a I actually pay bills, do expense

704
01:06:57.800 --> 01:07:01.000
reports to the extent James bonded those, and actually pay parking clients and things

705
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:03.039
like that. That would actually be
a very good use of AI that I

706
01:07:03.039 --> 01:07:09.239
think would have a lot of users
immediately and maybe the the Billy Connolly test

707
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:15.039
of Cannon a I actually be consistently
funny. Those feel like Grok is pretty

708
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:18.760
funny. That's fair. I think
you know, one of our goals for

709
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:24.559
Grock is to be the funniest AI. So I mean, if you ask

710
01:07:24.679 --> 01:07:32.400
Rock to provide a vulgar roast,
it's really good. And speaking of Groc

711
01:07:32.480 --> 01:07:36.280
to not to not let down our
future AI overlords. The final question on

712
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:40.679
the GROC summary that that that Kathy
touched on was the future of bitcoin.

713
01:07:40.760 --> 01:07:43.280
Not sure if we want to touch
on that or not, whether that's out.

714
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:48.639
Yeah, that that and and then
just before I don't know if we're

715
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:56.159
wrapping up here, but I'd love
to talk about bitcoin and your your view

716
01:07:56.159 --> 01:08:02.719
of crypto assets, and then maybe
back into kind of tying things up with

717
01:08:03.239 --> 01:08:10.960
convergences among technologies. You mentioned that
a little earlier Elon and the impact ultimately

718
01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:15.560
of all of this on economic growth
longer term, you know the surprises that

719
01:08:15.680 --> 01:08:24.199
might come from there. But first, first bitcoin, okay, sure,

720
01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:31.199
what's the question regarding well, you
know, there's when we first when you

721
01:08:31.319 --> 01:08:39.880
put it or Tesla put it on
its balance sheet, there was I remember

722
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:48.520
afterwards, there was this backlash in
terms of its economic impact, all of

723
01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:53.560
the energy usage and so forth.
And then and then as part of the

724
01:08:54.319 --> 01:09:00.840
seminar that we did that you participated
in elon, we basically we and block

725
01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:06.319
had come up with this notion that
wait, you put uh, bitcoin mining

726
01:09:06.399 --> 01:09:13.880
into a utility ecosystem. Uh,
so that you know, if if there's

727
01:09:13.960 --> 01:09:17.039
a storage unit and you know,
the the intermittent energy, you know,

728
01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:21.840
the storage unit's full, the sun
is still shining, the excess power goes

729
01:09:21.880 --> 01:09:28.239
over to bitcoin, and uh,
and you can mint bitcoin and overbuild solar

730
01:09:28.399 --> 01:09:34.880
and wind and renewables and all of
that. So so that that that argument

731
01:09:35.039 --> 01:09:42.199
against bitcoin, and Larry Think himself
used it quite vociferously for a long time

732
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:49.439
until until recently that that is going
away. What do you think about bitcoin's

733
01:09:51.399 --> 01:10:03.359
potential impact on the financial system,
the monetary monetary systeminancial services generally. Well,

734
01:10:03.560 --> 01:10:06.880
I have to say I don't spend
a lot of time thinking about cryptocurrency,

735
01:10:08.399 --> 01:10:13.359
hardly, any hardly any at all. I I have thought for a

736
01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:15.119
long time about money and the you
know the nature of money, what is

737
01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:21.199
money? And you know it's really
a database for resource allocation? Is the

738
01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:28.439
way to think about money in my
view, So now field currency is actually

739
01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:32.840
fine as a data based for resource
allocation. If you have a predictable money

740
01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:39.600
supply and it doesn't, you know, just get inflator or deflated too much.

741
01:10:41.199 --> 01:10:45.920
Rules based, it's rules based,
and then and then, and provided

742
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:53.119
government does not too much abuse the
privilege to create more money. You know,

743
01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:57.680
some amount of abuse is almost is
guaranteed to happen. But but you

744
01:10:57.720 --> 01:11:03.600
know you can go too far.
So uh, you know, the temptation

745
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:10.359
over the ages to debase money is
I think it goes back to probably the

746
01:11:10.479 --> 01:11:14.079
ancient Sumerians, you know. But
if as at the point which money was

747
01:11:14.119 --> 01:11:20.840
invented in any form, including in
gold, there was there was the unavoidable

748
01:11:20.840 --> 01:11:28.159
temptation to debase the money supply.
So so then you think of any given

749
01:11:29.399 --> 01:11:35.760
money system again I sort of applying
information theory to a money problem. Just

750
01:11:35.760 --> 01:11:40.000
think of it like it's a it's
an information system. You want to minimize

751
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:49.039
noise, minimize latency, minimized packet
loss, and and so any like like

752
01:11:49.319 --> 01:11:55.680
inflation would be adding noise to the
system. If if the if, the

753
01:11:55.760 --> 01:12:00.840
transaction rate, if if the if
what it takes to concluded transaction is a

754
01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:06.279
long time that as latency to the
system of fraud is kind of like packet

755
01:12:06.279 --> 01:12:12.239
loss. Uh, you know,
it's it's you know, so, so

756
01:12:12.439 --> 01:12:17.439
I guess I kind of think of
money like like I think of information moving

757
01:12:17.479 --> 01:12:24.239
on a on a network, uh, bandwidth, latency, jutter, which

758
01:12:24.279 --> 01:12:33.800
is the variants in latency, packet
loss, those fundamental elements. Yeah,

759
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:40.439
it's been interesting to watch how human
beings in this case that fed you know,

760
01:12:40.760 --> 01:12:45.840
the words they say, whip around
markets and there's just something not right

761
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:49.920
about that. I mean, that's
that's my point of view. I think

762
01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:56.640
our point of view certainly on on
the crypto team. And you know Art

763
01:12:56.720 --> 01:13:00.199
Laffer, who was my professor in
school, he's supply side you know,

764
01:13:00.720 --> 01:13:05.560
Austrian School of economics. You know, when he first he collaborated on our

765
01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:13.560
first bitcoin paper in two thousand and
fifteen, and after he got through reading

766
01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:18.399
it, he said, you know, I've been waiting for this since they

767
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:25.239
closed the gold window in nineteen seventy
one. I've been waiting for a rules

768
01:13:25.520 --> 01:13:33.840
a new rules based global monetary system. And I think that's where our optimism

769
01:13:33.960 --> 01:13:39.800
comes from. This is truly rules
based and so he's gotten more and more

770
01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:44.079
excited about it the more he's learned
about it. So, you know,

771
01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:51.239
anyway back to convergence though, and
you're you're the maestro here. You know,

772
01:13:51.279 --> 01:13:57.840
when I think of when we think
of, you know, autonomous taxi

773
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:02.079
platforms, rubotaxi networks and so forth, you know that that's the convergence of

774
01:14:02.399 --> 01:14:09.880
three of the major platforms around which
we have centered our research, robotics,

775
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:16.399
energy storage, and artificial intelligence.
Each one of those technologies, you know,

776
01:14:17.079 --> 01:14:25.399
basically gearing up for or in the
in the sweet spot of a of

777
01:14:25.479 --> 01:14:29.840
the S curve. And I sort
of think it of S curves feeding S

778
01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:35.600
curves and creating the potential for explosive
growth that no one is expecting. And

779
01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:40.239
and Brett has just written a paper
it should come out in the next few

780
01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:45.920
weeks around this topic. I just
want to get your thoughts about that,

781
01:14:46.000 --> 01:14:50.000
and Brett, if you wanted to
ask any questions specifically about that, but

782
01:14:50.479 --> 01:14:57.479
that the bottom line from an economics
point of view is we could see you

783
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:03.239
know, very surprising up uptick not
just uptick, a step function up in

784
01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:10.840
economic a real economic growth if these
technologies are as big as we think they

785
01:15:10.880 --> 01:15:15.439
are. Yeah, absolutely, Well, I mean the real economy is not

786
01:15:15.520 --> 01:15:20.279
money, it's goods and services.
So you know, I was saying earlier,

787
01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:28.239
money is really just the database for
resource allocation, and you know it's

788
01:15:28.800 --> 01:15:31.119
but if they're no resources to allocate, or if the actual goods and services

789
01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:38.520
output have is fixed, then you
really I just try to allocate that that

790
01:15:38.680 --> 01:15:42.840
same pie but more efficiently. But
it's really not only as good as as

791
01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:48.079
growing the pie, so growing the
the the output of goods and services.

792
01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:58.760
You know, productivity is really the
thing that leads to prosperity. And obviously

793
01:15:58.840 --> 01:16:05.960
with with robotics and AI, I
think digital medicine through a synthetic RNA,

794
01:16:06.119 --> 01:16:13.520
and you know, I think these
things are what will just massively improve productivity.

795
01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:20.039
You know, just if you've got
if you take the car as an

796
01:16:20.079 --> 01:16:26.880
example, and I think you understand
this quite well, although not many people

797
01:16:26.880 --> 01:16:31.800
do that. You know, if
you've got to say a passenger car,

798
01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:36.479
it will typically see ten to twelve
hours of usage, like maybe one and

799
01:16:36.479 --> 01:16:42.359
a half hours a day over the
course of seven days, but there are

800
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:45.319
one hundred there are one hundred and
sixty eight hours in a week, so

801
01:16:45.359 --> 01:16:48.439
it's really used for a very small
percentage of the week normally, and then

802
01:16:48.439 --> 01:16:51.680
you've got to pocket somewhere as well. So you've got parking costs, storage

803
01:16:51.720 --> 01:16:56.920
costs, maintenance costs, and you
know all these these these costs associate with

804
01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:02.039
the car, and you know you're
at five to ten percent of asset utilization

805
01:17:02.119 --> 01:17:08.199
for a car, whereas if you've
got an autonomous vehicle, that same car

806
01:17:10.239 --> 01:17:15.359
that costs basically about the same could
now I think, be used as a

807
01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:18.840
rough approximation for about a third of
the hours of the week. If you

808
01:17:18.880 --> 01:17:23.319
say like productive hours, and this
is I think that's a I think that's

809
01:17:23.319 --> 01:17:26.079
a conservative, but I think it's
not far wrong. So if you say,

810
01:17:26.079 --> 01:17:29.199
like it goes from say ten hours
a week to fifty hours a week

811
01:17:29.239 --> 01:17:31.800
out of one hundred and sixty eight
of useful hours, that that I think

812
01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:35.159
is not it's not going to be
exactly right, but I don't think it's

813
01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:41.680
far wrong. You now have the
same asset being able to having five times

814
01:17:42.000 --> 01:17:46.840
the utility m hm. So that
is that is that is a such a

815
01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:54.479
staggering leap of productivity, you know, And and if TESS is able to

816
01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:56.600
do as as I think we will
be able to, which is to upgrade

817
01:17:56.640 --> 01:18:01.399
the fleet to make it autonomous will
be the biggest step change in asset value

818
01:18:01.520 --> 01:18:12.199
in history. I think overnight we
we agree, we agree I'm converted here,

819
01:18:13.159 --> 01:18:15.880
and that's why I prefaced it by
I realize I'm preashing converted. But

820
01:18:16.279 --> 01:18:20.600
you're also you're also underestimating the utility
uplift because that ten hours that the car

821
01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:25.359
is driving a week, somebody is
not being paid to drive it, mostly

822
01:18:25.800 --> 01:18:29.319
right, but but they're devoting their
valuable brain to doing it. As then

823
01:18:29.520 --> 01:18:34.319
kind of it's actually there's the human
labor loss that that accompanies that as well,

824
01:18:34.359 --> 01:18:39.600
and so freeing up those hours is
actually I think on Tasha's work it's

825
01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:45.960
as meaningful, you know as the
capital utilization benefit. Absolutely, And I

826
01:18:46.199 --> 01:18:50.319
think you've also predicted a massive increase
in traffic. Uh, you know,

827
01:18:50.600 --> 01:18:57.399
because once you take away the pain
of driving, people will will go more

828
01:18:57.399 --> 01:19:00.520
places. So so they'll actually be
more caught on the road driving more places.

829
01:19:00.520 --> 01:19:06.319
Because if you can sit in the
car and you know, be watching

830
01:19:06.319 --> 01:19:13.479
a movie or be texting legally,
then then then what you know that that's

831
01:19:13.520 --> 01:19:16.720
really much less pain than having to
navigate Audio's traffic for an hour and a

832
01:19:16.720 --> 01:19:23.159
half Yeah, many people miss that. I remember, I just frustrated me

833
01:19:23.279 --> 01:19:30.640
that GM and its marketing material and
presentation just would say zero congestion, because

834
01:19:30.119 --> 01:19:39.159
I think that's larious. Yeah,
I would suggest threefold the amount of traffic.

835
01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:45.000
And that's what push pushed us into
doing more with drones and you know,

836
01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:53.119
delivery of food and parcels with drones
and even air taxis because I cannot

837
01:19:53.119 --> 01:20:00.000
imagine the commute from JFK into Manhattan
being you know, four hours or five

838
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:03.399
five hours or six hours, you
know. So, yes, well,

839
01:20:03.479 --> 01:20:09.960
fortunately I have a proposed solution to
that, which consists of tunnels. Yes,

840
01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:15.039
yes, and we're now in Saint
Petersburg. If you could build a

841
01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:18.680
tunnel from here to Tampa, which
is just sand, you're not going to

842
01:20:18.760 --> 01:20:25.520
run into anything, that would be
very cool. We can absolutely do that.

843
01:20:26.279 --> 01:20:30.640
Yeah, the Born Company has actually
made made it has I think at

844
01:20:30.680 --> 01:20:34.039
this point, by far the most
advanced tunneling machine. The thing that is

845
01:20:34.039 --> 01:20:40.840
the biggest inhibitor of Boring Company by
far is regulatory approval. It's you know,

846
01:20:40.840 --> 01:20:46.079
we're we're in the United States,
and particularly in some states like California,

847
01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:51.399
the we are being strangled by regulation. Yeah, and this is an

848
01:20:51.479 --> 01:20:56.239
important point to make, which is
I think obvious when you think about it,

849
01:20:56.800 --> 01:21:00.840
that if if we keep making more
rules and regulations and laws every year,

850
01:21:02.439 --> 01:21:08.720
and those laws and regulations are immortal, but humans are not immortal,

851
01:21:09.079 --> 01:21:13.039
then over time, you know,
you'll be like Gulliva where you're tied down

852
01:21:13.079 --> 01:21:18.119
by millions of strings and you can't
move. It's true, It's true.

853
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:24.920
That's why your first principles approach to
your business is so interesting. I wish

854
01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:30.479
we had first principles approach to policy
making. And you know, because you're

855
01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:36.119
right that the regulations are strangling.
The only good news here in this and

856
01:21:36.159 --> 01:21:42.359
we've seen it, is other countries
want innovation. You know, US has

857
01:21:42.439 --> 01:21:46.119
been you know, has been the
source of a lot of innovation, but

858
01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:54.319
some of our you look at the
FAA and drones there there That business has

859
01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:58.880
done much better elsewhere in the world. You know, it's been very frustrated

860
01:21:58.880 --> 01:22:01.399
here and now the is starting to
play ball because of it. Do you

861
01:22:01.439 --> 01:22:09.359
think that that uh, you know, that competitive dynamic or regulatory arbitrage will

862
01:22:10.079 --> 01:22:14.159
change things anytime soon, or do
we just need someone to come in first

863
01:22:14.199 --> 01:22:18.640
principles and kind of figure out a
way to convince everyone we need to get

864
01:22:18.640 --> 01:22:24.159
a white sheet of paper and and
not start all over. But you know

865
01:22:24.199 --> 01:22:28.800
what I mean, I think we
need to have a process for garbage collection

866
01:22:28.840 --> 01:22:34.039
of rules and regulations that if you
don't have some means of deleting rules and

867
01:22:34.079 --> 01:22:40.359
regulations and you only ever add them, then that we'll obviously just end up

868
01:22:40.359 --> 01:22:45.840
in a situation where everything is illegal. Yes, yes, which is where

869
01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:49.359
we where we are, and and
uh kind of the bigger and more complex

870
01:22:49.399 --> 01:22:54.760
the state is, like like California, New York. Uh, you just

871
01:22:54.800 --> 01:22:59.279
have I guess, first approximation,
the number of regulators you have is proportioned

872
01:22:59.359 --> 01:23:02.760
to your population, and so other
Texas in Florida do do do better in

873
01:23:02.760 --> 01:23:09.119
that regard. But there's just so
many rules and regulations in California, New

874
01:23:09.199 --> 01:23:14.880
York. And if you say,
you know La County, you know City

875
01:23:14.880 --> 01:23:20.439
of La It's now you've got it's
it can take you several months simply to

876
01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:26.159
get a permit to change the tiles
in your bathroom. Literally. Yeah,

877
01:23:26.720 --> 01:23:30.720
So you know that's I think things
are. We we've got to do something

878
01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:41.039
here or we're just doomed for this
reason. Elon, do you think China

879
01:23:41.319 --> 01:23:45.600
is at a competitive advantage, it's
command and control. I've heard you,

880
01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:49.119
you know, say that they're very
tech savvue down to the mayor of every

881
01:23:49.159 --> 01:23:54.359
city. Do you think or do
you think what has happened over there that

882
01:23:54.479 --> 01:24:00.479
there's a dynamic changing. Maybe they've
been they've over leveraged after twenty years of

883
01:24:00.760 --> 01:24:04.479
you know, basically buying the dip
was the right thing to do until it

884
01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:11.880
wasn't. Do you think that it
is now entered more of a Japanese style,

885
01:24:12.199 --> 01:24:16.359
you know, you know, they
have to readjust to a new reality.

886
01:24:16.760 --> 01:24:23.720
Or do you think, you know, the regulatory or less regulation over

887
01:24:23.720 --> 01:24:29.640
there is going to give them a
competitive advantage and innovation is going to you

888
01:24:29.680 --> 01:24:34.960
know, help bail them out.
I don't think China is not immune to

889
01:24:35.000 --> 01:24:39.840
the same forces that have driven excess
regulation and laws in the United States or

890
01:24:39.840 --> 01:24:46.920
Europe. They you know, absolutely
seen just in the course of our operations

891
01:24:46.960 --> 01:24:53.840
in China details in China, we've
seen quite a substantial increase in the regulatory

892
01:24:53.840 --> 01:25:00.199
button. So you know, the
it's a harder to get things done now

893
01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:06.359
than it was ten years ago.
That's that's so what I'm saying is I

894
01:25:06.359 --> 01:25:13.439
think this is just a natural part
of the evolution of any any country is

895
01:25:13.760 --> 01:25:19.000
the growth of rules and regulations.
Now, in history, the forcing function

896
01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:29.239
for cleaning up bad rules and regulations
or or sort of archaic rules and things

897
01:25:29.279 --> 01:25:31.680
that don't really matter anymore has been
war. That has been what has driven

898
01:25:32.760 --> 01:25:41.000
has been the clansing function for rules
and regulations. So now we would like

899
01:25:41.039 --> 01:25:44.760
to avoid war as ideally we can
do this without war. That would be

900
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:54.479
nice. So you know, it
would be nice. Has it ever happened?

901
01:25:54.600 --> 01:25:58.479
Has it ever happened before? I
know you're a student of war and

902
01:25:58.600 --> 01:26:02.119
battles and that you really under stand
that dynamic. Have we ever cleansed the

903
01:26:02.159 --> 01:26:10.520
system without it? I am not
aware of. I'm not aware of a

904
01:26:10.520 --> 01:26:14.880
situation like that that. Yes.
Now, the thing is, in history,

905
01:26:14.960 --> 01:26:20.479
wars were very common, so you
know that we're in this odd,

906
01:26:20.760 --> 01:26:24.840
odd bit of history where war is
quite rare. We're talking about, you

907
01:26:24.880 --> 01:26:30.119
know, total population of the world
divided by a number of by percentage of

908
01:26:30.119 --> 01:26:32.119
the population at war. If you
say, look what percentage of US population

909
01:26:32.239 --> 01:26:42.279
is actively at war, it's very
tiny today compared to any time in history.

910
01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:48.560
The people confuse caring about war from
being in war very different. Yeah,

911
01:26:49.159 --> 01:26:57.560
I think exposing and I know you
did in Ukraine with Starlink, Exposing

912
01:26:57.600 --> 01:27:01.960
what's going on is half of the
It is half the solution in a sense,

913
01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:09.720
right, or or maybe the reason
that you know that that we're not

914
01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:14.159
going through the horrors of war because
you can see it in living color and

915
01:27:14.159 --> 01:27:20.520
and and how devastating it is.
Yeah, I mean that that is certainly

916
01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:28.119
something that is possible. It was
not possible in the past, although it

917
01:27:28.199 --> 01:27:36.079
clearly doesn't stop the Ukraine War,
right, that's still going on. And

918
01:27:36.239 --> 01:27:40.239
you know, I think a lot
of a lot of things if they've been

919
01:27:40.279 --> 01:27:44.239
social media, so clear they would
have happened at all, Like the creation

920
01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:46.760
of the United States. If if
I was thinking, like if they've been

921
01:27:46.800 --> 01:27:51.399
social media at the time of of
Roanoke, I think people would have been

922
01:27:51.399 --> 01:28:00.600
persuaded from future voyages. M h. It's like we're dying of salvation play

923
01:28:00.960 --> 01:28:06.479
the locals. We've got rifles,
disease. That's a good point, very

924
01:28:06.479 --> 01:28:11.239
good, but that isn't that is
another way to reset the regulatory landscape is

925
01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:15.479
kind of exploration, right, I
mean, like who knows what. I'm

926
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:19.279
sure there's some set of loss that
apply on the moon and potentially Mars,

927
01:28:19.359 --> 01:28:26.159
but you know, it's much more
difficult to enforce laws from from that long

928
01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:31.319
a distance. Yeah. I think
ultimately, if there is a self sustaining

929
01:28:31.359 --> 01:28:39.239
city on the Moon or Mars,
that self sustaining city will achieve autonomy at

930
01:28:39.239 --> 01:28:47.039
some point. So I think it's
quite important that we have, extremely important

931
01:28:47.039 --> 01:28:55.720
that we become a multi planet civilization
and create a self sustaining city, ideally

932
01:28:55.800 --> 01:29:00.720
on Mars, because that's quite far
away from Earth, and I think if

933
01:29:00.760 --> 01:29:04.960
something were to take down Earth civilization, then it would it's less likely to

934
01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:12.680
take take out a mar civilization because
Earthenware was early in the same quadrant of

935
01:29:12.680 --> 01:29:15.359
the Solar system, you know,
for six months every two years, so

936
01:29:15.960 --> 01:29:23.279
for a lot of separation. And
I think, you know, I think

937
01:29:23.319 --> 01:29:26.479
a lot about the permi paradox of
where are the aliens? I've seen no

938
01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:30.520
evidence of aliens. People always ask
me if I've seen any evidence of aliens,

939
01:29:30.520 --> 01:29:34.600
and I would immediately shot from the
rooftops and from the X platform of

940
01:29:34.720 --> 01:29:41.960
any any evidence whatsoever about aliens,
I would be you've Yeah, I would

941
01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:45.159
be talking about it immediately, and
I have. Thus I've seen none.

942
01:29:45.000 --> 01:29:54.239
That's a concern because it means that
we perhaps are alone. And you know,

943
01:29:54.279 --> 01:29:57.039
and and maybe there were many other
civilizations, but they failed to pass

944
01:29:57.079 --> 01:30:01.319
the great culture of big of going
from one planet to being a multiplanet civilization.

945
01:30:03.279 --> 01:30:06.159
So I guess my concern is that
we need to keep civilization going at

946
01:30:06.239 --> 01:30:11.640
least long enough to be a multiplanet
civilization. At that point, I think

947
01:30:11.680 --> 01:30:19.279
we stabilize civilization and consciousness and greatly
extend the probable life span of civilization and

948
01:30:19.279 --> 01:30:26.800
consciousness as we know it. So, you know, I don't want to

949
01:30:26.840 --> 01:30:29.279
have to say this is not some
escape patch from Earth, because people are

950
01:30:29.279 --> 01:30:33.359
misinterred with this as like some escape
patch from Earth. The this and this

951
01:30:33.479 --> 01:30:38.640
really doesn't apply to me personally,
because you know, I will probably die

952
01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:42.279
in I don't know, forty or
fifty years, hopefully you know, living

953
01:30:42.359 --> 01:30:47.319
that long. Maybe I don't live
even that long. But the civilization can

954
01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:53.159
last for tens of thousands of years, perhaps hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions

955
01:30:53.159 --> 01:31:00.560
of years. So I think it's
very important that we make life multiplanetary while

956
01:31:00.600 --> 01:31:04.640
the window is open. And this
is the first time in the history of

957
01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:12.479
Earth that in four and a half
billion years of Earth's existence that it has

958
01:31:12.560 --> 01:31:17.560
been possible to extend life and consciousness
to another planet. So that window is

959
01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:23.479
now open for the first time in
four and a half billion years. Now.

960
01:31:23.479 --> 01:31:26.720
It may stay open for a long
time, but it may also close,

961
01:31:27.880 --> 01:31:31.920
and I think so we should just
take advantage of the time when the

962
01:31:31.960 --> 01:31:40.880
window is open to make life multiplanetary
and ensure that the tiny candle of consciousness

963
01:31:42.000 --> 01:31:46.680
in a vast darkness continues to continues
to burn, does not go out.

964
01:31:48.239 --> 01:31:53.920
Do you think that Starlink you've said
kind of the advance the idea that you

965
01:31:53.960 --> 01:32:01.840
needed hypersonic travel to basically capitalize colonizing
mar is starlink ornof or does that still

966
01:32:02.239 --> 01:32:05.680
do you still need that second kind
of like business model built on top of

967
01:32:05.680 --> 01:32:11.720
space x to make it happen.
I think Starlink is enough. I think

968
01:32:11.720 --> 01:32:19.640
Starlak is enough. You know that
there's there's there's a little diagram on the

969
01:32:19.680 --> 01:32:30.640
Stomic router. It's where people will
probably don't notice, but it's it's a

970
01:32:30.720 --> 01:32:36.520
homo transfer from Earth to Mars.
So if you look on your Starlink router,

971
01:32:38.920 --> 01:32:49.359
you'll see that homo transfer diagram.
That Starling is the means by which

972
01:32:50.800 --> 01:33:03.880
life becomes multiplanetary. So well,
you know you're you as you are.

973
01:33:03.920 --> 01:33:12.079
You are pioneering us in an amazing
way. A lot of a lot of

974
01:33:12.119 --> 01:33:16.119
the hope for the future is so
much as it of it, you know

975
01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:25.760
has has has started with you know, with projects you've started and dreams you

976
01:33:25.880 --> 01:33:30.800
have. And I think the world's
a better place. And I'll end where

977
01:33:30.840 --> 01:33:38.399
I started. I I know that
media clicks, you know, maybe negative

978
01:33:38.560 --> 01:33:42.880
is it works, but long run, long run, truth wins out.

979
01:33:43.159 --> 01:33:49.239
And uh, you know you're doing
amazing things and I think the world will

980
01:33:49.279 --> 01:33:59.479
thank you for years and years and
years. And maybe just a clue Charnie,

981
01:33:59.720 --> 01:34:01.920
oh sorry and click back immune just
as a closing thought to build off

982
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:06.199
that, maybe as well, how
would you think about inspiring the next generation

983
01:34:06.239 --> 01:34:11.159
of entrepreneurs to do the really big
hard things. Does it make most sense

984
01:34:11.199 --> 01:34:14.960
to try and do something more consumer
internet or something earlier, build up capital

985
01:34:15.000 --> 01:34:17.560
and then go and do something very
hard or do you think that what would

986
01:34:17.560 --> 01:34:21.520
you want to have heard as a
as a starting out entrepreneur thinking about that

987
01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:27.039
journey and also to inspire the next
generation to do great things, including building

988
01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:30.399
all the cottage industry no out of
things that will need to survive on Mars.

989
01:34:30.039 --> 01:34:38.479
Great question. Well, I actually
think that you know, and anyone

990
01:34:38.560 --> 01:34:46.479
that has a you know, a
company that's providing goods and services is doing

991
01:34:46.600 --> 01:34:50.560
great. I mean, it's not
that or when you tackle so called you

992
01:34:50.600 --> 01:34:58.680
know it quotes great challenges, I
would recommend that they don't actually, because

993
01:34:59.359 --> 01:35:03.119
the probably of failure is very high. I mean, I think I think

994
01:35:03.359 --> 01:35:08.439
just just try to be useful,
is my advice. It's very difficult to

995
01:35:08.439 --> 01:35:13.680
be useful. You know. If
you see like total area under the curve

996
01:35:13.840 --> 01:35:18.800
of how useful you've been to other
people, you know, that's cumulatively,

997
01:35:18.840 --> 01:35:23.119
that's that's it's very hard to make
that a big number, you know.

998
01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:30.359
So it's really just trying to be
useful and make you great pots and services

999
01:35:30.399 --> 01:35:39.279
that people want and make their lives
better. That's it. And you know,

1000
01:35:39.760 --> 01:35:44.680
as far as you know, encouraging
entrepreneurs to start companies, my advice

1001
01:35:44.680 --> 01:35:47.000
would be that if if you need
encouragement to start a company, don't do

1002
01:35:47.079 --> 01:35:56.880
it, right, right, yeah, because you'll probably I mean, the

1003
01:35:56.920 --> 01:36:01.840
probably failure is very high, so
you really should not. If if you

1004
01:36:01.880 --> 01:36:11.119
need encouragment, yeah, yeah,
don't do it. Thank you, yeah,

1005
01:36:11.119 --> 01:36:14.840
thank you so much, Elon.
You know, as I think,

1006
01:36:14.880 --> 01:36:21.159
as it's clear, if you have
if you have an idea that will fill

1007
01:36:21.319 --> 01:36:26.680
an unmet need that the world,
you know some of the world really needs,

1008
01:36:26.720 --> 01:36:29.560
and you have a passion to go
for it, then yes, but

1009
01:36:30.359 --> 01:36:33.640
agreed. The probability of failure is
Brett, I think you know. Is

1010
01:36:33.680 --> 01:36:40.840
it ninety percent? For new businesses
eighty ninety percent. Let's stay