1 00:00:22,519 --> 00:00:26,839 Welcome to this edition of The High Strangers Factor, copyrighted on the Paranormal UK 2 00:00:27,039 --> 00:00:31,199 Radio Network. I am your host, Steve Ward, Annie Mercer and I 3 00:00:31,239 --> 00:00:37,119 have been interviewing interesting people covering all aspects of the unexplained for several years, 4 00:00:37,679 --> 00:00:42,159 and now Andy and I are joined by Susie Bastile as part of our motley 5 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,600 crew. Let's see Aramis, Porthos, and Athos. I guess it doesn't 6 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,399 worry to work, but I would like to be d'Artagnan in the fourth one 7 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,880 away. Well, tonight we're going to do something a little different, and 8 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,320 we're going to do a sort of a round table. If you can have 9 00:01:03,719 --> 00:01:07,680 three corners as a round table, I guess that'll work, and the conversation 10 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:14,519 could just go anywhere. So let's just strap in and what I want to 11 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,000 do is start with Andy, please tell us about your publishing company. By 12 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,959 the way, what's the name of your publishing company? I popeis the company 13 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:26,079 is called Ninth Circle Press, which is from Dante's Inferno. As you probably 14 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:32,159 remember, I'm a rather large fan of Dante and this very the tales of 15 00:01:32,799 --> 00:01:36,319 his exploration. Well, I say exploration. It's kind of a psychological exploration 16 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:40,680 of the underworld first of all, and then onto purgatory and offering to paradise. 17 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,040 It's really did set the tone for how we view Hell, the inferno, 18 00:01:46,159 --> 00:01:49,120 that part, the various levels of Hell, and I've always been fascinated 19 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:49,959 by it since I was a kid. On my first redit. I didn't 20 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:52,760 understand a lot of it when I first read it, but it was like, 21 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:55,840 let's give me a nightmare as well. It's his brilliant stuff. I've 22 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,239 always been a dentist, as we are called, interested in Dante's works and 23 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:02,159 set of the company. I thought that's an ideal name. Actually, Ninth 24 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,480 Circle. It's the ninth circle of Hell. According to Dan to himself, 25 00:02:06,519 --> 00:02:08,759 we would all end up in the Ninth Circle, just in the supernatural and 26 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:16,080 paranormal and the occult that would tend straight down there. So I from you, 27 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:22,120 so it seemed to be a I can need that out. It seems 28 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,039 to be a good choice for the name of the company, so I went 29 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:28,000 with Ninth Circle. I mean totally various names over the years. It's been 30 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,159 something to do for a long time, but never really got around to it. 31 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:34,120 And then, as you know, I moved from one part of the 32 00:02:34,159 --> 00:02:38,879 UK to another part into much quiet and more rural area. Finished my work 33 00:02:38,879 --> 00:02:42,639 as to psychotherapist, and so it's time to get this publish company off the 34 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,759 ground and start running. So my second publication has been out for about a 35 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,639 month now. It's saving pretty well. I'm just in the process of dispatching 36 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,319 orders off the first retailers around the world who want copies of it. So 37 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,120 I sell it myself directly first of all, and after a while they of 38 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,080 retailers get it. So that's going very well indeed. And where do people 39 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,240 go? How did they want to order your books or find a list of 40 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,280 your books that are available? How would they do that? You can go 41 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,599 to Ninth Circle Press dot com or Ninth Circle Press dot co dot UK. 42 00:03:10,719 --> 00:03:15,159 I own both of them, so it's just as written as words Ninth Circle 43 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:17,759 Press and they'll find two titles that have been published. The first was my 44 00:03:17,879 --> 00:03:22,000 own work on the thing called the citu Akra, which is the dark side 45 00:03:22,039 --> 00:03:25,599 of Jewish mysticism. It's the alternative to the Kabala, or at least it's 46 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,599 not the alternative of the Kabbala as written about as being as something to do 47 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,120 with the Kabala. It's not. I won't voarue you the whole story again 48 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:36,680 because it's quite lengthy to explain. The second book I've just published is much 49 00:03:36,759 --> 00:03:39,680 easier to understand. It's on Esseens witchcraft and magic, written by a good 50 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,520 friend of mine, Richard Ward, who has been a practitioner for many years, 51 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,520 and he covers the history of witchcraft in Essex, which is a particularly 52 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,280 important county for the history of witchcraft. Overall, some very important figures have 53 00:03:50,319 --> 00:03:53,800 come from Essex, including very real, very important people, and one that's 54 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,800 a bit of a mystery, bit of myth that has spread around. Again 55 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,439 I won't boy with the whole story, but called Jews Picking has been credited 56 00:04:00,439 --> 00:04:04,199 as being one of the fathers of modern witchcraft and wicker and it's not he's 57 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:08,919 entirely i gonna say, made up, not exatainly made up. But a 58 00:04:08,919 --> 00:04:12,039 lot of things have been attributed to him that had nothing to do with him, 59 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,000 the work of somebody else. And my friend's book goes very much to 60 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,120 the detail of that as long with much more modern material about the occult and 61 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:23,439 witchcraft in ethics. So that is my current business, which is going quite 62 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:28,000 well. I've got at least two titles already in the works being prepared ones 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,920 by another writer, and it's very good. I don't say talked about it 64 00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:32,920 yet because I'm just working through proof radio. And another one I'm working on 65 00:04:32,959 --> 00:04:38,519 myself is on an old medieval grimoire which has been translated before, but I 66 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,120 think it's time for new translation, so I'm working on that at the moment. 67 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,040 So it's keep me quite busy, pretty good. And as soon as 68 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,079 he remind us about your websites and what you do and don't leave out as 69 00:04:49,079 --> 00:04:57,759 Susie Camp, of course we can't. So my website is Paquages dot blogspot 70 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:05,519 dot com and they're you can find some of my musings on the origins of 71 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:11,279 Puck Wedges and the Lord behind them, as well as some eyewitness accounts, 72 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:16,120 and there is also a contact form there in case anyone ever sees one and 73 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,759 would like to let me know. I'm always happy to hear it. Even 74 00:05:20,759 --> 00:05:26,199 if you don't want your name attached to it, you can, I will. 75 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,879 If you just need someone to talk to to not feel crazy, I 76 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,480 am more than happy to do that for you. And my YouTube is the 77 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:39,800 Puck Wedgy Whisperer. We talk about a lot more than just puck wedgies there 78 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:47,800 though, So there you will find my adventures through swamps and looking at some 79 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:56,000 old ancient stone structures in New England, as well as some interviews. What 80 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,839 I tend to do if I get upset about some misinformation out there, I 81 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,600 tend to find an expert in that area and have them on to talk about 82 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:10,759 it, to try to counteract all of the bad information going on out there 83 00:06:11,439 --> 00:06:16,079 and on there. We do have a Susie Cam compilation on there, but 84 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:23,040 the individual Susiecam footage is on my Facebook. So if you would like to 85 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,240 see what it's like to be a five foot two person trapsing through a swamp 86 00:06:28,319 --> 00:06:32,680 in New England, pov cam is available. And just to put it out 87 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:40,399 there, I am very very bad at spotting anomalies and videos, so please 88 00:06:40,439 --> 00:06:43,240 look at them and tell me if there's anything there, because I guarantee you 89 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,319 I would miss it. Well, there was this big, strange black thing 90 00:06:46,319 --> 00:06:47,759 fulling at one point. I don't if you've noticed it on all tho this 91 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:55,519 is uh, this is shadow, this is I went to the animal shelter, 92 00:06:56,759 --> 00:06:59,959 thought I donate a big bag of cat food and I made them a 93 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,480 taken saying I think I'd like to see the cats. And so I was 94 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,839 looking at all the cats there that needed to be rescued, and then I 95 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:10,240 said, well, have any been here for a long period of time? 96 00:07:10,519 --> 00:07:13,319 And uh, they said, well, this one little black cat had been 97 00:07:13,399 --> 00:07:16,560 kind of overlooked for a while. Uh, and this is Shadow. She 98 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,439 had me at her with her green eyes and being the sucker that I am, 99 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,839 I have four cats now, so I posted on Facebook. I think 100 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:30,800 in this day and age, you can identify as anything, including inanimate objects. 101 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,959 So right now I'm identifying as a cat lady. But now something you 102 00:07:35,959 --> 00:07:39,920 said, Susie. You said that if people were feeling a little crazy, 103 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,319 they could talk to you and contact you. Is that when you put that? 104 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,199 Yeah? Absolutely no. See I thought I thought Andy was the licensed 105 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:58,079 therapist. Very good. Uh. So Andy had a good idea of how 106 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:01,920 we could start out of this. Now. I know I probably told my 107 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:11,279 mini biography many times, but just so people can get a handle on where 108 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:16,399 we're coming from and how we contracted the strange virus that is a fascination with 109 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:22,199 the paranormal, we thought we'd kind of go over our origins like a superhero 110 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:28,160 group like the Justice League or the Fantastic Three. So Andy, would you 111 00:08:28,199 --> 00:08:31,800 care to start? And how how is it that a young man in England, 112 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:37,080 maybe a young boy was when it started, that got into this strange 113 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:41,799 field. Well, it was actually rather young. I was about about nine 114 00:08:41,879 --> 00:08:46,279 or ten, I would say, around that kind of age. I used 115 00:08:46,279 --> 00:08:48,159 to live in Essex, which is say, my friend's book is based on 116 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,320 Essex, which trop magic. So I had the reputation already. But there 117 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:54,600 was a country park not far from where we lived, and there was a 118 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,799 large fault in the middle of the park. The fault was built original in 119 00:08:58,799 --> 00:09:01,240 the Polonic times in early eighteen hundreds, and then built up during the First 120 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,120 World War and built even bigger in the Second World War. It's on the 121 00:09:05,159 --> 00:09:07,799 Thames Estuary, so it was obviously a route that the German bombers would come 122 00:09:07,799 --> 00:09:13,399 over. Soviously it was an important point to protect the landscape on the country. 123 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,360 But by the nineteen seventies we're talking about here, it would become derelict. 124 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:18,759 It was a bit of a mess. It was boarded up. There 125 00:09:18,799 --> 00:09:22,720 was corrugated iron the way around to keep people out because it was obviously it's 126 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,080 old and dangerous. Some parts were collapsing. There were metal railings on the 127 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,399 first floor, or what we call the first one, the second thing you 128 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,960 could call, so it was very dangerous to go up those areas. A 129 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,639 bit were kept out, but of course, kids being kids a nice sunny 130 00:09:35,799 --> 00:09:39,080 afternoon, there were lots of gaps in the fence and so we broke through 131 00:09:39,399 --> 00:09:43,120 and there were a few kids playing football you called soccer in the ground. 132 00:09:43,159 --> 00:09:45,799 So it was a large courtyard, gravel courtyard. We just kicking them all 133 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,000 about. And I was there, so just Johnny and I didn't really know 134 00:09:48,039 --> 00:09:52,440 the other kids, of just other kids were there, and the very one. 135 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,519 This is a sunny summer's afternoon on Sunday. So I looked up and 136 00:09:56,519 --> 00:10:01,120 I saw two men in military uniform walking past, I know more about ten 137 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,720 fifteen feet away. It was clear as anything, fully solid figures. Two 138 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:09,679 men in what I discovered later was the First World War uniform because they had 139 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,039 like a webbing bandaging around there below the knees onto the boats, which is 140 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,399 a World War One uniform feature. Don't get World War two. And they 141 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,840 walked past completely silent, no sound, no footsteps, nothing, and for 142 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,720 a second didn't register. I looked at them before well they didn't and then 143 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,799 look back at the what there, and they were gone. I looked at 144 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,120 maybe five seconds, six seconds, you know, but they were definitely there. 145 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:33,759 It was only a few seconds to say, but they're walking towards what 146 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,919 was a war. There was no doorway there, so I was like, 147 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,440 okay, that's pretty strange. I wasn't sort of freaked out or scared just 148 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:43,919 because there's been of a Sunday after thing. Just thought it was very odd. 149 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,039 And I remember going out and talking to my parents, who were obviously 150 00:10:48,039 --> 00:10:50,799 there in the grounds in the country park. Part of it intaid I've seen 151 00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:54,759 this figures. Mom was like, oh, really, that's interesting. I 152 00:10:54,799 --> 00:10:56,440 don't think you believe me for a moment, but I knew what i'd seen. 153 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:00,440 I was absolutely convinced of it. And of course you lead self off 154 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:01,960 to the local library. In those days there was no internet obviously, so 155 00:11:03,039 --> 00:11:05,799 had to just look at books and see what I could find and start reading 156 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,960 about ghosts. And that was really started my interests. Was just that weird 157 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,600 experience, whereas I say, we're talking about forty years ago now, and 158 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,120 more than forty years it's terrifying. But yeah, it was like it was 159 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,919 yesterday. I can close my eyes now and I can still see those two 160 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:26,440 men walk past. It's the freakiest thing. It's like they looked real, 161 00:11:26,519 --> 00:11:30,120 looked solid, completely human, normal, but apart from there was no sound. 162 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,000 That was very strange. Men people say, oh, ghost exist, 163 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,480 blah blah blah, what did I see? You know? Over the years, 164 00:11:35,519 --> 00:11:39,159 I've do various theories about these sorts of things. It was some kind 165 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,039 of I think, replay of the past somehow, like an i'ld what they 166 00:11:41,039 --> 00:11:45,080 call the stone taps through, which doesn't quite work. In fact, stone 167 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,159 takes theory comes from a writer. It's fiction, but the idea of the 168 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,960 environment, the em fields for like, containing imagery or thoughts or shapes, 169 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,399 forms of everyone to call them that can be triggered off when we interact with 170 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,279 them, and I have to be looking for them to see them. I 171 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:03,080 mean, it's probably the best ghost sighting I ever had in all the years 172 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,720 of doing ghost investigations, which have been years of doing them on a fairy 173 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,879 regular basis. In the early two thousands, almost weekends every weekend was taken 174 00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,120 up by doing it because I was working for a public company. But that 175 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,120 was probably the strongest, most impressive sighting I've ever had, and it was 176 00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:24,919 pretty something. Now, you started out kind of interested in ghosts and that 177 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:28,919 sort of thing. As time went on, your interests obviously expanded to all 178 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,720 aspects of the paranormal. Yeah, and I just described that a little bit. 179 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:37,960 How maybe some of that came about, Well, it was a bit 180 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,639 of a diversion of what really happened. Nice idly looking into books about witchcraft 181 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:43,799 the magic, because I'd heard when I was again younger as a teenager, 182 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:46,879 that Essex had a history of witchcraft in magic as well. It was just 183 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:50,799 my reading ghost books. I read about pets called Buckley Pluckley Sorry, which 184 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:54,799 not far away, that's very haunted. Also Border Directory, probably of the 185 00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:58,639 most famous places in the UK of ghosts, which was in Essex, so 186 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,320 it was my county. So I started looking for other field and started to 187 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,679 tar me more about UFOs and the occult and witchcraft the magic. So they 188 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,159 all kind of started to spread out from getting more and more books on the 189 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:13,600 general kind of paranormal or supernatural more referred to in those days, and that 190 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,720 just broadened my interests and started to develop various theories about what these things are, 191 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,080 which mixed in with my interest in psychologists have got bit older still, 192 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,679 so I have very different ideas about ghosts and UFOs and thinking there are probably 193 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,080 the same phenomena seen in different ways, which is obviously we've talked about many 194 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,399 times before. So for me the interest grew there. I was never strictly 195 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:37,200 into UFOs as such. I've still this day don't think I could say I've 196 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,679 seen a UFO as they've described. I've seen some anomalies in the sky, 197 00:13:41,759 --> 00:13:45,919 but nothing that would say look as the spaceship. And I've come to that, 198 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,759 as we know from my discussions many times, the conclusion that there are 199 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:50,639 in a UFOs spaceships, not nuts of about craft and other planets. There 200 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,919 from old realities around us, different levels of being existing around us. And 201 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:05,480 that's what these things are for me. Very cool. But Susie, what 202 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,519 about you? How did you you know a young innocent lady growing up in 203 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:15,320 New England? You know, how did you become I don't know what the 204 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:24,240 word is damaged mentally? Perhaps we're into okay, we are telling so my 205 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:33,279 mom jokes that I was born spooky. So I was born the day after 206 00:14:33,639 --> 00:14:39,360 Friday the thirteenth, and the day before a full moon during the thunder storm, 207 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:45,399 and I was born still in the amniotic sack, which I guess there's 208 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:52,120 folklore around that it's supposed to be like some kind of omen So that's how 209 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:58,000 I came into the world. And I also grew up hearing that story repeatedly, 210 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,039 so I think that does some mental damage there, like a self fulfilling 211 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:11,120 prophecy kind of type thing. And then I spent most of my childhood with 212 00:15:11,159 --> 00:15:16,159 my grandma, so we didn't go to daycare or a babysitter. I went 213 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:22,720 to Grandma's house and she was, I don't want to say into the paranormal, 214 00:15:22,759 --> 00:15:31,000 but she just kind of had connection to things in the world that other 215 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:33,960 people don't understand. So one of the things that I grew up doing with 216 00:15:35,039 --> 00:15:37,759 her every day is every day she would go for a walk through the woods 217 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:45,120 where we had indigenous stone work as well, and she would, you know, 218 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,399 tell me about the stone walls and you know, show me what different 219 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,919 plants were. But also every day before we went out, she would leave 220 00:15:54,559 --> 00:16:00,480 an offering and she said it was for the forest spirits. And I've just 221 00:16:00,639 --> 00:16:07,080 now started connecting that with what people do with the we folk little people, 222 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:11,759 puck wedgies, makiah we sag in this area, and I think that's what 223 00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:17,840 she might have been leaving treats for. It was usually fruit, so it 224 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:25,600 might be hereditary that I got into little people, I think. And also 225 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:33,480 your interest have expanded also into various areas. Yeah, yeah, that When 226 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,200 I first started looking into puck wedges and little people, I was very I 227 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:44,279 had blinders on, was very focused on that didn't have I had no interest 228 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:48,679 in UFOs. Ghosts were kind of like cool stories, not very interesting to 229 00:16:48,759 --> 00:16:55,480 me. But then the more you start learning and researching, the more you 230 00:16:55,799 --> 00:17:02,919 can see a connection between everything and you. And that was a misstep I 231 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,279 took when I first started really getting into research, was not looking at things 232 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:15,160 holistically. So you know, once I started seeing the similarities between you know, 233 00:17:15,279 --> 00:17:26,839 other areas having similar phenomena and similar kind of beings seen with other beings 234 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:33,759 in these areas, started to put it together. Eventually I actually thought you 235 00:17:33,799 --> 00:17:44,400 were on the verge of mentioning John Keele at Okay, it didn't happen, 236 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,119 that's all right. I've never revorted his name as well, just to say, 237 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,319 couldn't be the first. They're all taking a drink right now, Okay, 238 00:17:52,440 --> 00:18:00,039 very good. If if Susie mentions it, you take two drinks for 239 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,559 me. And I've said a lot of this on the show, I'll try 240 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:07,319 and make it very quick. I was a huge science fiction fan and also 241 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:14,480 astronomy in space, anything anything that TV show or a movie. You know, 242 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:17,480 we had a great theater we could walk down to and usually be a 243 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,160 science fiction movie and a western on and a million cartoons. It was. 244 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,640 It was a great for a quarter, just for a quarter, and so 245 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,480 I was very much into that. I even had a Solar System map decades 246 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,880 before they demoted Pluto. So anyway, Pluto will always be a planet to 247 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,359 me. But as time went on, you you'd hear things about flying saucers 248 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,640 UFOs. My buddy Bill came down one time he had seen a TV show 249 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,839 called you asked for It? And apparently did you asked for it? It 250 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,240 was something you you could write in and ask them to show you anything. 251 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:57,799 Well apparently they. I think it might have been one of those films from 252 00:18:57,839 --> 00:19:02,519 the fifties. They maybe the Utah film or there was another one where you 253 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:04,759 see the people had probably seen it with the white dots. It was it's 254 00:19:04,759 --> 00:19:07,880 in daylight and the moving to the sky, and some said, well, 255 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,400 it's just the sun reflecting off birds or whatever. But anyway, the idea 256 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,240 was you know, he said, he said, Steve, that's like real, 257 00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:19,839 real uf real flying saucers coming from other planets and the thought man, 258 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,799 and that just uh extended our imaginations. We just have a great time. 259 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,480 Early on, I read the books of Frank Edwards, the anthologies, where 260 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:34,240 I learned about the flat Woods Monster, uh and uh uh, the Kelly 261 00:19:34,319 --> 00:19:40,640 Hopkins Thrill Goblins and so forth, and uh and then uh, I think, 262 00:19:40,799 --> 00:19:45,200 uh, I guess uh that leaves us up to the point where that 263 00:19:45,279 --> 00:19:48,319 there was that march in Michigan where we had a wave of UFO sightings, 264 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,240 uh, that with a lot of credible people. And then uh, shortly 265 00:19:53,279 --> 00:19:57,599 after a few months after it was the first flyover of the Mothman. And 266 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,440 in November of sixty six that same year, and we had a we had 267 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,200 our UFO club and so forth. Now I'm not unlike like and unlike Andy 268 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,759 and unlike Susie in more recent times, I'd never had any kind of experience. 269 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:15,160 Now I was. I was kind of afraid of the dark point my 270 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:21,200 Dad finished off the attic and became a room. It was all finished off, 271 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,119 which was very cool in the daytime, but at night there were monsters 272 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:26,960 in there, and I had to of course, the covers protect you from 273 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,160 monsters, but I had to have a kind of a peephole so I could 274 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,000 breathe fresh air. And so I don't know how I think that went on 275 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:37,440 till I was about twenty seven, but I got over it, so anyway, 276 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,759 and then you know, I was People know I was very much into 277 00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:48,119 the ech frame, and unlike you guys, I had no use for ghosts, 278 00:20:48,319 --> 00:20:52,400 absolutely none. And I confessed one time on this show that when I 279 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,400 would buy my Fate magazine in the nineteen sixties, I would cut out the 280 00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,359 UFO article and maybe if there was one on Lockness or something like that, 281 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:06,680 rip off the front and back cover and then stayp them together and throw away 282 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,359 the rest of the magazine. I had no use for true mystic experiences or 283 00:21:11,519 --> 00:21:14,720 haunted houses. But I had I reformed. I went, I went to 284 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:18,759 some kind of therapy, and now I have I have complete Fate magazines. 285 00:21:18,039 --> 00:21:22,279 So that's really kind of how it started. And of course people know my 286 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,400 journey through uh leaving the et behind or at least uh thinking there was more 287 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,839 to it with with people like John Ke and Jack Fula and so many great 288 00:21:30,839 --> 00:21:36,799 researchers that have followed them. So that's that's it. I'm kind of a 289 00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:40,400 non experiencer. I had one weird experience, but I will not re recap. 290 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,799 Just go back in the archives you'll you'll hear me talk about it. 291 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,480 And so that's that's pretty much it. So uh but uh, you know, 292 00:21:47,519 --> 00:21:51,079 we we think, all three of us have come to the point where 293 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:59,839 uh we see that there are connections, uh, parallels and patterns uh and 294 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:04,599 in all these things, and it's very difficult to completely separate everything out. 295 00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:11,359 Absolutely. I have a question for you, Steve. I've been thinking about 296 00:22:11,559 --> 00:22:18,519 you not being an experiencer more since I have started to have experiences. Do 297 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:25,759 you want to have experiences? Yeah? I think so. My frame of 298 00:22:25,799 --> 00:22:30,559 mind is this, you know, how people there was a guy who he 299 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,680 was one of the witnesses on finding Bigfoot. I saw him speak and he 300 00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:38,799 said he was in his car. They had the camera right next to him. 301 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:44,200 He's on kind of a pathway and he sees this bear across the road 302 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:45,920 and he doesn't react. I mean, he could have just picked up his 303 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:52,200 camera and taken the picture. The problem is that people, even even John 304 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:57,400 Keel had a situation where he had a classic, brilliant UFO in a movie 305 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,880 camera and he was kind of founded he didn't pick it up. I would 306 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:07,920 want, hopefully to be in the present moment, and even if I didn't 307 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,400 have a camera to document it, I would hope that I was as aware 308 00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:17,559 as possible so I could remember it in detail. But yeah, I would. 309 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,400 I would, Well, it depends, you know, if it's some 310 00:23:19,559 --> 00:23:26,559 kind of a banshee dragging chains or whatever and making horrible noises. I think 311 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,480 I could. I could bypass that one. But and also I'm not really 312 00:23:30,759 --> 00:23:34,599 interested in h being abducted, even though there's no deductible or cope, you 313 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,759 know. I just I don't want to go through that either. So there 314 00:23:37,759 --> 00:23:41,839 would be certain experiences I would I would like love to have I had. 315 00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:45,519 I guess maybe a couple of minor experiences, or at least one in Waverley 316 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:51,160 Hill Sanatorium. A group of us went down there from Michigan a few years 317 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:52,440 back, and we got they went through all the you know, we got 318 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,960 the tours and so forth, and I was standing in the moarde with some 319 00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:03,000 people and I felt like a couple of fingers brushed the top of my head, 320 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:06,920 my hair and I could have been a bug, I don't know, 321 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,680 but that that was about it. Another thing my my ex wife and I 322 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:17,839 some years ago, we went to the Crescent Hotel in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, 323 00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:23,640 which was highlighted on a ghost hundreds, Yeah, ghost Hunters episode and 324 00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:30,279 h and again we went through the long two hour tour and I was I 325 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:33,279 was not feeling too good. I had hurt my knee a couple of days 326 00:24:33,319 --> 00:24:37,519 earlier and the doctor put me on vicodin. That was my first experience with 327 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:41,960 that particular painkiller, and man, I was tired and anyway, so we 328 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,039 went to bed. They told us about how sometimes people feel spirits or something 329 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,720 or something sit on the bed well through the night. My white and then 330 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:56,160 wife Sarah felt something pressed down on the bed. She's looking over to see 331 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,319 if I'm shifting around, and I'm not. I'm dead to the world. 332 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,720 A flesh and e zambies could have been gnawing on me. I wouldn't have 333 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:07,160 known it. And so that was so a lot of times things have happened 334 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:15,200 around me that other people have experienced, but I seem to have I don't 335 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,640 know, sort of an aluminum foil, a barrier on a natural one that 336 00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:22,559 keeps these things away. That's what I was going to say. That's the 337 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,880 really odd thing is, as you know, I used to work for a 338 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:30,440 three different panel events companies that hide locations out for the night and people would 339 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,720 pay to come along, hpen part of the staff that the manned the events. 340 00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:37,079 The number of people would say the same thing. The more they did 341 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,480 those events investigations, the more they experienced stuff. So it does seem that 342 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:48,079 usually you become more attuned to whatever's going around you and the fact that you 343 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,599 still haven't seen it's quite interesting. I mean, I do believe we play 344 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,400 a part of these phenomenal experiences, and we're not just passive observers watching a 345 00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:00,599 universe that's separate from us. We play our part in the events. Many 346 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,680 times, if the night was particularly quiet, the crowd were quiet, they 347 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,720 weren't doing very much, they weren't really into it, and it would be 348 00:26:07,759 --> 00:26:11,880 that the place would respond and not a lot would happen, and a group 349 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,480 people that are really up for it when you're really rare to go. More 350 00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:17,279 would happen. It wasn't there. They weren't faking it at all. It 351 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,720 was as if the energy they were generating was manifesting the phenomena that we're experiencing. 352 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,680 But I think if there was a subconscious desire to not experience something or 353 00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:30,519 keep the hell away from it, it could be that you block it without 354 00:26:30,559 --> 00:26:33,920 even realizing. I think we talked ricently about a particular occasion where I was 355 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:38,480 on an investigation where the table we were sitting around was vibrating. It was 356 00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:42,400 literally moving. You could feel it moving, except one person couldn't. I 357 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,640 when there was like six of us around the table, which were saying six 358 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:47,960 or something like that. Five of us you could feel it. You could 359 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,720 feel it vibrating. Sixth person, No, I'm not feeling it, not 360 00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:55,480 any He wasn't making it up. He was an adamant that something's happening here, 361 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,400 and yet we could feel it happening. We were talking earlier on about 362 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,880 dry thunderstorms, you know, without rain, and there was a par particular 363 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,200 occasion at Woodchester Mansion, which is a place I went to a lot in 364 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:10,920 the early two thousands. It's a large mansion house, a Victoria mansion that 365 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,559 was never completed. It was not finished because the guy who was having it 366 00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:21,240 built, he was a owned sugar plantations in Carian and quite literally one terrible 367 00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:23,759 storm wrecked his entire plantation, so he lost everything, lost all his money 368 00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:26,079 as well for the help whole lot. So it couldn't afford to get the 369 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:30,279 building finished, so it was left abandoned, unfinished and has become In the 370 00:27:30,319 --> 00:27:33,599 eighties it became very much the haunt of local kids were doing all the strange 371 00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:37,559 things in it was rumored there was a ritual a cult group that was used 372 00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:40,799 on the second kind and don't know, but there was a part of it 373 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:45,079 was actual chapel so that had they found black candles in their animal parts, 374 00:27:45,079 --> 00:27:48,960 all the sorts of things. When the council took over the building in the 375 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:52,359 nineteen eighties and it set up a trust which runs it for the nineteen nineties 376 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,359 onwards. But you could hurry it out for the night, and it was 377 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,400 a fabulous location. There were so many things that had happened in there. 378 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:03,119 And one particular night we had this dry thunderstorm nowhere in thunderstorm and it was 379 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,720 on this first wild Clorida. It was about twenty five of us, and 380 00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:07,759 each flash of lightning you could see shadows of figures at the forehead of the 381 00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:12,400 corridor must be lit up by the light from the thunder the lightning coming in. 382 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,839 But there were people then you said, we didn't see that. Others 383 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,960 literally like, oh, every time the light they went because he could see 384 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,680 these figures when I was tourds the front, like iuld see them very clearly. 385 00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:22,960 But they gave them people and said no, never saw anything. I 386 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160 don't know what you guys were talking about. It was like, well, 387 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,079 that's it's amazing that they weren't lying. They just weren't tuned in whether they 388 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,440 didn't want to see it, and I don't know. They said they were 389 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,079 there more often tho. It was people who were there with a partner who 390 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,599 was interested in the event, wasn't then themselves had gone for it. They 391 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,920 left the wife, the husband and their kids, their friends, whatever. 392 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,119 And there was one guy in particularly. It was quite hilarious, just little 393 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:51,119 brief aside. We used to meet and the pub quite close to the village 394 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,839 pub quite close to where Winchester Mansion building was, and we'd meet all meet 395 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,480 there and I was sitting at the table the friend of mine who had brought 396 00:28:56,519 --> 00:29:00,519 me along, and the couple sat with us and sat down and was just 397 00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:03,519 like chatting. And as the wife was into it, he'd come along. 398 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:06,440 It wasn't that bothered. He didn't really believe me. He said, that's 399 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,559 not my kind of thing. I brought work. As she's into it, 400 00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:11,759 I'm not interested at all. Really not fair enough. Anyway, when we 401 00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:15,279 got down to the woodshef itself that staff were running the event. We give 402 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,519 a little talk. I did what called mediumship about the location, was explaining 403 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:21,279 the moment. But I did my speech, and he looked at me, 404 00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:22,480 and he looked really embarrassed. And I said to him after he said, 405 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,480 don't worry about you know, because he thought, well I was. He 406 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,559 maybe thought I thought he was taking the mickey at me, and wasn't bothered 407 00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:32,279 at all. But I said, now I'm not a believer. Now. 408 00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:37,680 He was on that corridor towards the front during the lightning, and afterwards he 409 00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:40,279 came and found me. He said, I don't know what if I saw 410 00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:41,839 that, I saw that that was real. I still don't believe, but 411 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:47,319 I know I saw those things at the corridor that was amazing, So you 412 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:49,640 know that was the thing. If even if your mind is skeptical a bit 413 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,839 closed, sometimes the door gets ripped open and you start saying stuff. But 414 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:56,319 yeah, as I said, there were times when people would say they hadn't 415 00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:00,160 seen heard anything, and yet the rest of us were clearly experiences something so 416 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,680 in that really built up my idea that we do play something a part in 417 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,839 this. Psychologically speaking, we are giving them energy. It's not just a 418 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,119 passive observer of an active phenomenon around us. We are engaged with it. 419 00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,559 And what I used to do on these events was I just have the knacker 420 00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,319 be able to see places, what they looked like before, how they used 421 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:22,359 to appear. I could describe them. I didn't communicate with any in particular. 422 00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:26,559 I can sometimes take voices of people talking that was in the past and 423 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:29,559 related back to what I was hearing. I didn't really interact with them directly, 424 00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:30,920 but I could sense them, and I would do my best to not 425 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,319 know about place for the first time I've not been there before, and in 426 00:30:33,599 --> 00:30:37,799 times when after say, I've been pretty accurate actually about what was going on 427 00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:40,279 there, including things it didn't make any sense at the time to me. 428 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:42,359 But when I explained what I'd seen and to the person who knew the history, 429 00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:45,920 I said, well, yeah, that's spot on. So that was 430 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,400 how I was involved. Again, for me, I think it's because of 431 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,119 my interest in that early experience, I developed a connection with these sorts of 432 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,359 things. I was mentioned briefly about witchcraft the magical. There On, I 433 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,039 discovered books about a group called the Golden Dawn from the eighteen hundreds in the 434 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:04,599 UK that were the founders of real modern magic, and I started using the 435 00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:07,640 books and using the rituals in them, which are designed to attune you to 436 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,480 these energies and vibrations. And certainly the more I use ritual the more I 437 00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:15,599 felt more attuned to what I was experiencing. So that for me was what 438 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:18,440 made it more. Really, I don't think I was like some kind of 439 00:31:18,599 --> 00:31:22,960 inheritability. I think it was just something that was passively there that I woke 440 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,960 by doing what I was doing. I just find out years later my dad's 441 00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:32,359 grandmother was from Wales and she was the wise woman of the village, so 442 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:36,359 she was a woman that people would go to. Obviously, I'm not actually 443 00:31:36,359 --> 00:31:38,480 directly descended as a public expace before I was adopted as a child. So 444 00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:44,400 my father feels like he's not my birth father, not my genetic father, 445 00:31:44,519 --> 00:31:48,079 but maybe there was something there, maybe some kind of connection was formed of 446 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:51,119 me as a baby. I don't know vibration on stuff. But ironically, 447 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,119 both my parents have no interest in this sort of stuff. But I met 448 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:56,200 my birth mother about ten years ago and she's very interested in the sort of 449 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,880 stuff. So it's almost as if that did travel down the old is really 450 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:06,319 quite strange. Yeah, interesting what you said about like a subconscious block. 451 00:32:06,839 --> 00:32:12,079 I think that's what it was for me. I very much believe that if 452 00:32:12,119 --> 00:32:16,519 you expect something bad, you're going to find something bad, and vice versa. 453 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:24,079 And you know, I had to kind of let go of a lot 454 00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:30,119 of things in my life. I had to learn to look at the world 455 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:36,799 in a more positive light where everything is not scary. And I think, 456 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,880 you know, like Steve, I didn't want to get abducted. I didn't 457 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,119 want to get scratched by a demon, you know, things like that. 458 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:50,720 So while I had always like wanted to have experiences, I still was scared. 459 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,640 And when I kind of like dealt with that and dealt with like my 460 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,680 own mental health, issues too. Not that I'm calling Steve mentally ill, 461 00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:02,599 but maybe it is. Well. I used to have a nickname mental award. 462 00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:08,079 There you go, though, funnily enough it got on the more serious 463 00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:10,920 moment topic for a second. That does seem to be the case. A 464 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,920 lot of people who have paranorl experiences are able to connect with this sort of 465 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,720 stuff, have had traumas of their own in their past. Something's happened to 466 00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:22,200 them that's knocked them sideways or had an effect, and it seems to cause 467 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,359 that kind of opening up in the subconscious. And maybe Steve, you've not 468 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,000 had that when you were younger. I mean, i'll go down to your 469 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,079 personal life here, but maybe you didn't have that experience. I mean a 470 00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:31,440 really good example of a guy aout of years ago who's part of my old 471 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,839 investigation team called James. He was a salesman. He went around the country 472 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,480 selling stuff. He was came we worked for now some kind of tech company 473 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,000 who was working for. But he had the gift of the gap. He 474 00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:45,559 was a great blug you know, he was good salespersonally, he was hit 475 00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:50,400 his targets and had no interest in the paranormal whatsoever. Not a c no 476 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,039 interest, and they had a car crash, and it was quite a bare 477 00:33:53,079 --> 00:33:57,279 crash. He actually came flying through the windscreen and got a severe head injury, 478 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:00,160 ended up quite a bit of time in hospital, came out of it 479 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,839 and was psychic afterwards picking up on stuff. He said, he'd lived in 480 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,719 the same house for years, nothing had ever happened with in his own languae, 481 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,079 which it's like happening in his house. Plates used to fly for the 482 00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,280 wall, and all sorts of polier guys like activities like to occur that had 483 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,719 never happened before. And he could do the same thing as I could. 484 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:20,559 He could pick up a location, sense what had gone on there in the 485 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:22,159 past and become aware of it. Now, if you'd met the guy, 486 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,559 you'd never in a million years think it was into this sort of stuff at 487 00:34:24,599 --> 00:34:28,079 all. And I said, he never was until this accident, until the 488 00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:34,719 head trauma clearly triggered something in his psyche and subconscious and became very, very 489 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,960 psychic, doing a bit of a medium. You know. I was picking 490 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:38,559 up on sort of families and that's sorts of which I never did, but 491 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,159 he could. I said, It's just it's bizarre, you know. He 492 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,840 had no interest, couldn't do this stuff, and all of a sudden this 493 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,000 happened. To say, he contacted a few groups this is back in the 494 00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:50,800 late nineties looking for information, and the group I was a part of at 495 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,159 the time were the only ones who responded. So it was very grateful to 496 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:59,239 find us and talk to us about So there is a correlation between mental state, 497 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:00,639 I think, and being able to pick up on this stuff. And 498 00:35:00,679 --> 00:35:06,239 I do think what I tend to refer to as a Hollywood hollywoodization of this 499 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,880 stuff, and it's all deemers, it's all monsters, all evil, and 500 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,840 it's all going to get you all scary frightence people when they come on and 501 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,199 go investigations, they want the scare and the spook. But do they really 502 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,480 you know, if they've seen too many films, like any supernatural film, 503 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,199 really that gives you the idea it's all demonic, it's all all more scary, 504 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,280 then of course you might be maybe I don't have that experience. Well, 505 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,960 you both talked about abduction. I am absolutely convinced, totally convinced that 506 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,639 abductions don't. OK. This is also do hypnogogic dreaming and sleep paralysis and 507 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:38,599 when I've did a lot of research on this quite early on my career as 508 00:35:38,599 --> 00:35:43,719 a psychotherapist, and I noticed something quite interesting with that particular phenomenon. I 509 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,159 had, actually, I tell the story briefly, had an early client of 510 00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:52,039 mine came to see me. He had quite bad anxiety. He was an 511 00:35:52,079 --> 00:35:57,599 accountant, private accountant, and would when it came to year end doing accounts 512 00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:00,360 for his clients, used to get very very stressed about you to worry, 513 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,119 and he was having a really difficult time. So it was coming fro some 514 00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:07,559 help with that, and we're having an induction questionnaire where you asked first questions 515 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:08,800 about their past, their life to assess whether you can help me not. 516 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,840 One question always asked is do you have trouble sleeping? And said, well, 517 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,920 usually around the time of the year end figures, I do get really 518 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,559 bad sleep. They s I had this one occasion that was really weird. 519 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,440 I don't know what happened. There was the middle of the night, so 520 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:28,840 I woke up and just felt really uncomfortable and just it didn't feel right now. 521 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:30,480 I tried to get out of bed and I couldn't move. So it 522 00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:35,079 was really frightening. And for some reason they had the two young boys, 523 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,199 my two kids at the bottom of the bed. We're like running around the 524 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,519 end of the bed, and I thought, why are you what are you 525 00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:42,519 doing out of bed? And I tried to speak to them, So I 526 00:36:42,519 --> 00:36:46,000 remember I was trying to shout. And then it was morning and it was 527 00:36:46,519 --> 00:36:50,800 it was daytime. It was light. That was the weirdest thing. So 528 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,239 I spoke to his wife that morning at breakfast, said like, do you 529 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,800 remember what happened last night with the boys running around and gest sip the kids? 530 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,159 What were you doing out of bed? We weren't out, We didn't 531 00:36:59,199 --> 00:37:00,519 do anything. And his wife said, no, you'll see it the whole 532 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:05,079 time. It was slip paralysis, get dreaming, because he had no interest 533 00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:07,719 in anything weird or wonderful. For him, It's just his kids running onund 534 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,000 the end of the bed. So I became very interesting and write quite a 535 00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:15,280 long artic for a clinical psychology magazine about this and did some research and what 536 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,239 I discovered was really quite interesting. I asked lots of people via the into 537 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,800 and just around if they ever had this experience. And one of the things 538 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,000 I discovered that was very interesting those that got back to had this experience, 539 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,800 they either experienced what you might call alien abduction scenario with aliens in the rooms 540 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,159 or probes and that kind of thing, or they had what's called the old 541 00:37:36,199 --> 00:37:40,079 Hag experience, which is decided of his which scary creature in the room that 542 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:45,760 was trying to possess you or take you over. What was interesting was those 543 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,519 that were interested in science fiction, UFOs or even just Star Trek had the 544 00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:55,480 abduction experience. Those might be interested in ghosts or even just history stuff had 545 00:37:55,519 --> 00:38:00,719 the Old Hag experience. So how this thing presented itself very much is preaded 546 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,480 upon your interests, your experiences, and those who had noticed in any of 547 00:38:05,519 --> 00:38:07,840 those things, like my former client, will have things like the kids end 548 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,880 of the bed, or just strange person or the wife moving around for no 549 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,599 reason. So that's why I say I don't believe reductions actually occur. I 550 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:21,760 think it is this very strange phenomena of sleep paralysis and hpgogic dreaming. Sleep 551 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,559 paralysis is perfectly normal. It happens whenever you dream, but it stops you 552 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:28,199 thrashing around and throwing your arms legs about, so you don't injure yourself or 553 00:38:28,199 --> 00:38:31,960 anyone with you. It's a normal function of the brain. But hypnogogic dreaming 554 00:38:32,119 --> 00:38:37,280 is a very odd phenomenon where you go from quite deep sleep to being virtually 555 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:42,840 awake in an instant. So you combine that with the fact you can't move, 556 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,320 your brain will come to conclusions something stopping you move, rather than the 557 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,320 idea you're not gonna realize that your body is in paralysis because it's supposed to 558 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,800 be, but you're gonna think, oh, I can't move, something stopping 559 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,119 me. And people often talk about things like the anal probes and being fiddled 560 00:38:55,119 --> 00:38:59,960 about with. Well, obviously that Jenna Taylor has some of the strongest nerving 561 00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:02,400 He's in the body, so they are naturally going to respond first. So 562 00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:06,880 people do experience that kind of thing because that's the first part of the body. 563 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:07,760 It started to come out in the paralysis, so of course you have 564 00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:13,079 that kind of experience, but it was they just compiled themself. Was absolutely 565 00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,920 fascinating And one particular guy I spoke to I masaged to get hold of again. 566 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:23,360 I knew when I was training drinks. When I was training, I 567 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,920 was also working in London in the retail shop and this guy I was working 568 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,400 with was doing his Masters in art and we'd just talk about phenomenal stuff. 569 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,000 And he said, I had that kind of weird experience. Is it used 570 00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:39,360 to happen whenever I was coming towards the deadline of presenting work for my university 571 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,159 degree. The photogra was up in Edinburgh and he moved to London for his 572 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,840 masters, and so he used to live in a little flat in Edinburgh when 573 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,800 he's a student there undergraduate, and he said, I knew this thing was 574 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:52,039 happening because I'd wake up the middle of the night and there'd been an orange 575 00:39:52,119 --> 00:39:55,599 yellow glow outside my window, except like a street light. Basically, he 576 00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:59,480 said, there was no street lights out there, there was no lights near 577 00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:01,719 me. It was out there, and so it would come into the room 578 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,360 and move across the wall and then disappear. So it only ever happened when 579 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,000 I was really stressed out, and I thought, it's just me being mega 580 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:13,280 stressed. And he said it only happened when he was having worked to be 581 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,719 handed him and they'd move to London and was doing his masters, completely different 582 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,440 flat, totally different area, the same thing happened. He said, they'd 583 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,760 wake up in the middle of night and that orange light would appear on one 584 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,239 across the room and it would disappear. Now these said, that's ufo, 585 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,360 it's aliens coming from again. But he knew for well, it was just 586 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,280 his He knew of the paralysis as we talked about it. And because you're 587 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,679 not interested in the panel at all, Yeah, it makes perfect sense to 588 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,159 him. Body just goes in paralysis and it's horrible. I discovered over the 589 00:40:38,199 --> 00:40:43,800 years it's actually quite common. But because people think it's really strange and scary 590 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,840 and weird, they don't talk about its. People don't tell other people that 591 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,480 have had this experience. They tend to keep to themselves because the first thing 592 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:52,400 they do is google it. Of course, the abductions and ghosts in the 593 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,559 bedroom and the old hags, it on your chest, all that kind of 594 00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:59,119 stuff. I mean, it's even mentioned in Shakespeare to line in Romeo and 595 00:40:59,159 --> 00:41:01,639 Julia's about the old hat city on the bed. There's famous painting a woman 596 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,280 lying down with this goblin group on a chest and this sort of ghosty horse 597 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,079 appearing beside her. So it's been a philomen It's been around for a very 598 00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:14,440 long time. So that's I've got on this topic. Kind of drifted into 599 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,559 a little bit but yeah, that's my experiences as a psychotherapist. So in 600 00:41:17,559 --> 00:41:22,400 psychology about why we have these weird experiences, because I would often say that 601 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,679 people sleep is a very complicated thing. We think you're straightforward, your lad 602 00:41:24,679 --> 00:41:28,639 and you four sleep, wake up again. Now there's different levels of sleep, 603 00:41:28,679 --> 00:41:30,800 there's modes of sleep, the different ways to watch you sleep. We 604 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,920 can sleep for eight hours and have a terrible night sleep because you don't get 605 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,159 into rem properly. You don't spend so such time in REM or delta waves 606 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,119 sleep, the very very the healing sleep, and all these things happen. 607 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,960 People often say, you know, you get blind drunk and you fall asleep, 608 00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:45,920 but that's a terrible night. You work with a bad hangover because you 609 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,480 don't sleep properly. You're into this stupor effect instead. It's not proper sleep 610 00:41:49,519 --> 00:41:52,960 at all. So it's a complex process and so often people have these kind 611 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,920 of experiences in the middle of the night. Now I'm not saying that none 612 00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,639 of them are real. Certainly not ghosty experiences in the middle the night quite 613 00:41:59,639 --> 00:42:01,519 possible an old house, but I don't think aliens are coming on and having 614 00:42:01,559 --> 00:42:07,000 on my spaceship and doing things you put you back again. So it's funny 615 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,239 because when I get stressed out, I sleep walk. Ah yeah, So 616 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,400 I think that sounds like the opposite side of the same coin. There, 617 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:21,639 whatever is supposed to keep me from moving does not ye, it's the disordered 618 00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:25,639 sleep of effect of stressed anxiety disorders and sleep. If you'll do that. 619 00:42:25,639 --> 00:42:29,360 They're talking and say, by a girlfriend years here to have a fullll in 620 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,719 conversation with which is fast asleep? Mister come out with that nonsense? But 621 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,000 you could talk? You do answer you fast asleep? Yeah, I'll go 622 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:42,400 ahead. No, I used to do that. Also, there was one 623 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:50,079 incident where I was living with my college boyfriend and he came in and was 624 00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:52,719 trying to talk to me about something. I had no memory of this when 625 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,599 I woke up, but I actually sat up and I picked something off my 626 00:42:55,679 --> 00:43:05,480 nightstand and threw it at him. No memory of it later was It's interesting 627 00:43:05,519 --> 00:43:09,480 that certain people that have interested in star trek or whatever or having the abduction 628 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:14,199 experiences, and we're having the old Hag experience. I'm just wondering what you'd 629 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:19,000 have to do to have the big abducted by wild amazons. Now not asking 630 00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:22,239 for me, okay, but I just, you know, just thought I 631 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:27,159 throw that out there. It's called be hopeful. One thing that did stop 632 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,320 the one anomalist the feature was the fact that you tend to be those kinds 633 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,280 of experiences. There were those kind of beings no one saw, like the 634 00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:37,199 favorite movie starle in the bedroom or a horse in the bedroom. It was 635 00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:39,239 always that kind of If it was the old Hag syndrome, it was literally 636 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,400 the old Hag. It was like an old typical witch kind of characters, 637 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,559 small and interesting. I mean, whether we believe witch stream or not. 638 00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:50,840 One of the things I thought was interested in his communion and stuff was describe 639 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,119 these little blue doctors, little blue creatures bolts as they were described that they 640 00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,280 kind of fit the kind of description you could possibly have an old hag with 641 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,920 small, wrinkled, you know, heavy set. They kind of fitted a 642 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:04,519 little bit. So it was almost if he was having both experiences both a 643 00:44:04,599 --> 00:44:07,320 tall, willowy alien figure and than the witch hag at the same time. 644 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,559 Whether we believe what the stree when I'm a little dubious of into perferance you 645 00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:15,039 is, it's a different matter entirely. But I thought that was interested brot 646 00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:22,679 of those ideas in together. And there are people that say they can astro 647 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,559 project or do lucid dreaming and things like that, and those those seem like 648 00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:35,800 positive experiences, but maybe somewhat similar. You know, I've heard people convinced 649 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:43,960 that they actually travel somewhere else in their sleep. But I think like the 650 00:44:44,039 --> 00:44:47,679 mind is more powerful than a lot of us want to admit. Absolutely, 651 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,559 absolutely, certainly, if you're of my sort of mindset of the young in 652 00:44:52,639 --> 00:44:59,320 psychology, thed have collective unconscious deep within the connectors altogether anyway suggest the possibility 653 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:04,360 of this kind of mind to mind movement, that you can literally move out 654 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,119 of yourself into another person and experience life through their eyes. My personal theorizing 655 00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:13,159 things that past lives is exactly that you don't see your own past life. 656 00:45:13,199 --> 00:45:16,519 You see the past through someone's eyes because you're it's all stored. When a 657 00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:20,960 deep levels of the collective unconscious, those personal experiences are actually in there. 658 00:45:21,159 --> 00:45:23,360 That's not necessarily Young himself say, I'm not actually agreed necessarily that idea, 659 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,800 but I think you can extend the idea of collective unconscious, which I think 660 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,280 does it is. I mean, the evidence of that is probably strong, 661 00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:34,320 but the idea of personal experiences stilled within it is someone who can lock into. 662 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,280 Could also be an explanation for things like ghostly experiences of the past, 663 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,079 like my two guys in the World War One uniform, that you're locking into 664 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,199 a shared memory experience of that event there. And that was one of the 665 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:52,360 things I noticed a lot doing the panel investigations for the Fright Nights Company and 666 00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:58,320 then London Panormal Society would go to locations that had histories of supposed ghosts, 667 00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:07,280 ghosties, ghosts described. That's perfectly as they should go to the experiences people 668 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,400 have described and like in books that you could read about what's supposed to have 669 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,800 happened that people have seen, and we didn't see that. We'd have different 670 00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,239 experiences. We'd have something that was not recorded before would occur or be seen 671 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,639 in those locations. It was quite fascinating that we didn't see the classic things 672 00:46:22,679 --> 00:46:24,639 have been described in the ghost books that people have written about this sort of 673 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:29,840 things, but instead have very different experiences. So and often I think the 674 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:32,840 most fascinating thing was that it was never, not necessarily anything big and dramatic 675 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,800 that was experienced. It was often mundane things being observed, people walking past 676 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,000 but standing in doorways, you know, that kind of thing, not sort 677 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,320 of scary kind of as doing beasts or whatever. It was always the more 678 00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:49,679 mundane experiences of, you know, walking into a room and seeing somebody just 679 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,119 standing in the room and disappearing. They weren't doing anything. I always fought 680 00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:58,239 that was quite fascinating that they didn't always adhere to the supposed legend of our 681 00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:05,000 location. Susie, were you telling us about your weird lightning phenomena during the 682 00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,480 show or before the show? That was before the show? Okay, well 683 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,960 people will know what it's okay. I was going to say that if you 684 00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:15,000 might want to do is grab a lightning rod and just run outside when it's 685 00:47:15,039 --> 00:47:17,400 happening. You might if you get a strike, you might be able to 686 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,840 be turn psychic, or you might be able to become a superhero, even 687 00:47:23,079 --> 00:47:31,079 there is some risk. I actually was indirectly struck by lightning once, and 688 00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:36,840 I was at another time in a house that got struck by lightning, but 689 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,840 I didn't get the jolt. But the house I grew up and got struck 690 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,760 by lightning when I was in it. But then the house I rented in 691 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,719 college also got struck by lightning. And when that happened, I happened to 692 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:58,159 be touching the VCR. It just got it was enough to knock me back. 693 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:07,079 So no superpowers, though debatable, you know, I've sure I read 694 00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:09,599 some of it. If you askedruck by lightning, the chances have been struck 695 00:48:09,639 --> 00:48:15,400 again are increased. You become some kind of conducting rod, that it somehow 696 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,960 affects you, that it means you actually more like somewhere I know you, 697 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,559 that you're more likely you're struck again. Once happens more than once. He 698 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:29,039 was struck on a golf course three separate occasions. He did have a lot 699 00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:34,039 of like on the property. So it was a dairy farm, and our 700 00:48:34,079 --> 00:48:37,320 house is at the bottom of the hill at the and then there was a 701 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:43,199 pasture in the barn, and on top of the hill there was a big 702 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:49,400 tree and there was a lightning storm, and the cows all went under this 703 00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:52,199 big tree for cover because they couldn't get back to the barn fast enough, 704 00:48:53,119 --> 00:49:00,079 and lightning hit that tree, and it called seventeen cows. Oh M. 705 00:49:01,519 --> 00:49:06,719 Well, if Andy's right and lightning may strike again, there's still hope, 706 00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:12,159 Susie, I could be what was that movie Powder oh yeah, yeah, 707 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,920 yeah, I could be the next powder right, and you are listening to 708 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,800 the High Strangers that you're copyright and on the Paranormal UK Radio network, Andy, 709 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,920 Susie and I are imparting our vast knowledge and experience on the unknown through 710 00:49:29,039 --> 00:49:35,960 podcast land Uh. Susan and I were talking before the show about a couple 711 00:49:36,039 --> 00:49:42,480 other possible topics. One was if we were we seem to be contacting a 712 00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:46,559 spirit or or or somebody that's supposed to be in the Great Beyond, how 713 00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:52,440 do we know the communication is legit? And also another topic came up was 714 00:49:52,519 --> 00:49:54,840 the Philadelphia experiment. Now, it may not take long to go through that, 715 00:49:54,920 --> 00:50:00,519 but I'd be curious to know what both you guys think about it. 716 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,039 Maybe we haven't looked into it too much. I have a little bit, 717 00:50:04,079 --> 00:50:07,519 and I have some ideas on it, but just to kind of change change 718 00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:14,360 subjects a little bit, I must have met. What I've read of experiments 719 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,159 suggests to me it never happened. I don't know if that's the case, 720 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,920 but certainly the more I tried to look into the more kind of confused and 721 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,679 mixed up it seems to get that what rehappened or even didn't happen, so 722 00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:28,760 I must have been. I'm skeptical of it. But if you have more 723 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,239 information, Steve, I'll be very interested to hear. Yeah, I forget 724 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:36,280 what year it's supposed to have happened. But a man named Carl Allen that 725 00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:42,639 called himself Carlos Allende. He got a hold of the UFO, The Case 726 00:50:42,679 --> 00:50:46,719 for the UFO by MK Jester. He was an astronomer, and he wrote 727 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:52,119 a couple of books on UFOs, actually a few books. He eventually committed 728 00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:57,119 suicide, and there's all kinds of rumors about that, that he was murdered, 729 00:50:57,119 --> 00:50:59,360 you know, on and on. That's a whole other subject. But 730 00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:02,800 what what this guy did, as Carl Allen, is take a copy of 731 00:51:04,679 --> 00:51:08,400 of his uh, the Case for the UFO, and write uh in like 732 00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:15,880 three different scripts, uh and UH like I was something about A and B 733 00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:21,280 and then somebody else and they were It was as if aliens or some kind 734 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,760 of intelligence is commenting on this book to the whole thing. The uh. 735 00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:28,920 The military got into it. They actually printed a bunch of copies of this 736 00:51:29,199 --> 00:51:32,679 with the notations and he became a really big deal. And uh, it 737 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,480 turns out now some people have bought this hook line and sinker I think it 738 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:42,360 was Charles Bolitz wrote a book on it, and uh uh there was I 739 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,920 have. I didn't really prepare for this, so I don't have all the 740 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:52,480 detail. But Ivan Sanderson had a a publication called Pursuit. He started the 741 00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:57,800 Center for uh uh, let's see the Center for the Unexplained sit to I 742 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,800 can't remember anyway, Yeah, Center for the Unexplained, I guess, but 743 00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:07,000 uh uh. There was an article in there by a gentleman I don't remember 744 00:52:07,039 --> 00:52:10,119 his name, but he did a kind of an investigative report and he tracked 745 00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:15,239 down Carl Allen talked to a lot of his his uh neighbors and so forth, 746 00:52:15,679 --> 00:52:19,119 and a lot of them said, oh yeah, Carl. He was 747 00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:22,400 a practical joker. He was always you know, doing so you know, 748 00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:25,400 the whole thing starts to fall apart. I know a guy that claims his 749 00:52:25,599 --> 00:52:32,199 father was there during the Philadelphia experiment. But this this moon also believes that 750 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:37,400 Indrid Cold murdered his father. Yeah, we're not. We won't. We 751 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:43,960 won't follow that up. And also, if you go to the uh, 752 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:50,760 a place called the Faded Disks Archive a great resource uh and you click on 753 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:54,480 under Wendy Connors. There's a there's like a historical UFO section the contacts, 754 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,599 Close Encounters of the third kind, fourth kind, a high Strangers section. 755 00:53:00,119 --> 00:53:04,800 You actually there is an interview with Gray Barker of all people, talking to 756 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,039 Carl Allen and where he admitted that he wrote in the Margins and all this 757 00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:15,400 and it wasn't the cosmic space people that so many people thought so, uh 758 00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:19,760 but anyway, and then of course they made a cheesy movie on of it, 759 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:23,079 which was certain pretty awful. But it's just it's it's uh, I 760 00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:28,719 mean, we might expand this a little bit. How many of these things 761 00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,360 that are that that really are just hoaxes that take on a life of their 762 00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:37,800 own and they just never die. Yes, that becomes an issue some of 763 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,559 the I think some of these things they probably are graining truth to them, 764 00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:45,159 they begin to grow out of all proportion. I mean, the oldest one 765 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,639 stands is ross would of course how that began and how that's grown into this 766 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,039 mythological story that's spread all over the way. Something that's the whole thing about 767 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:57,280 the video of the supposed that aliens being autopsy that you've spoken to the guy 768 00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,880 who's behind making the video. Even he came out and talked about it, 769 00:54:00,039 --> 00:54:01,880 the interviewed about it, and I still people, I said, no, 770 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:06,480 no, even paid off by the government to lie about this thing. The 771 00:54:06,519 --> 00:54:08,239 guy's English, actually, I mean he's a Greek dessement, he's English. 772 00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,840 You know. I don't think they pay him anything. But he told exactly 773 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,440 how they did it. And yet people still believe that that real. You 774 00:54:17,639 --> 00:54:22,000 just can't kill the belief for people that don't know that. The Philadelphia experiment 775 00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:25,480 was supposed to be where they were trying to teleport a Davy ship to another 776 00:54:25,519 --> 00:54:30,400 spot, and when it re materialized, some of the sailors were refused in 777 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,079 the metal and so forth. It just just uttered nonsense. Some people thought 778 00:54:34,119 --> 00:54:36,400 there might have been, like you say, a greater truth to it, 779 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:42,800 where they were trying to degouse the uh degoussing is where they every every ship 780 00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,440 or submarine has a metal signature and they do something to it so it's not 781 00:54:45,559 --> 00:54:50,719 so easily detected by the enemy. And so they thought maybe there was something 782 00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,440 to do with that. But anyway that was I wish people would would just 783 00:54:54,519 --> 00:54:58,679 put that one to bed and just bury it in a shallow grave. See 784 00:54:58,679 --> 00:55:00,440 that's interesting because the version I'd always thought was that they try to make it 785 00:55:00,519 --> 00:55:04,679 invisible, that the idea was trying to build and bend light around it the 786 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,760 course of a very stronge. So there's the mythology, of course, of 787 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,960 these sorts of things that begins to grow and expand away beyond the original story. 788 00:55:10,679 --> 00:55:15,760 Right, if there is an original story, of course, it entirely 789 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,800 could be entirely made up and created, which kind of brings me on to 790 00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:22,079 I wanted to talk about because I was checking a Susie on a message earlier 791 00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:27,000 on today about this. Susan's discovered the thing called the Philip experiment, which 792 00:55:27,039 --> 00:55:30,320 I think you probably know of, Steve Well. The group of people literally 793 00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,880 invented the ghost, gave him a history and identity, and they became real 794 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,920 it started to respond, that was responding on its own. It was causing 795 00:55:37,039 --> 00:55:39,559 sorts of strange phenomena in the house. So the idea that you could literally 796 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:44,960 create a ghost is possible, because that's what the Philip experiment was. It 797 00:55:45,039 --> 00:55:47,320 was a littitly designed and when they tried to dispel it, it didn't. 798 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:51,880 It carried on for some time. It kind of figured out by itself eventually, 799 00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:57,360 but it certainly was called Philip Experiment. Now I engaged on a similar 800 00:55:57,679 --> 00:56:00,559 experiment all of my own a few quite a few years now. As I 801 00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:05,599 mentioned before, working with Friday Nights Loved and Parenal Society, I did all 802 00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:08,960 sorts of locations around the country and one particular pace and I won't name it, 803 00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,880 and the only person knows where it is my wife, and she's swansed 804 00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,840 secretly as well. I started to create a story about a ghost in this 805 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:21,400 particular section of the building. The building was definitely very haunted, and people 806 00:56:21,559 --> 00:56:24,519 had seen a figure in the area, but I described it as a very 807 00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:29,800 very tall, slim man in the top hat and gave him a name as 808 00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:34,079 if I was picking this up, and people around me started seeing it as 809 00:56:34,119 --> 00:56:37,599 well. But it was also people on investigations that were there when I wasn't 810 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:44,360 there were seeing it and describing the same figure and the same name. Now, 811 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:49,039 they were not part of anything I'd been involved in. There were completely 812 00:56:49,079 --> 00:56:52,599 different private groups that were going there because I was very friendly with a person 813 00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:55,920 who ran the locations, and I knew from them who'd been there, and 814 00:56:57,519 --> 00:57:01,480 they said that this name was coming up with small private groups who I didn't 815 00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:04,920 know any of them had not been any our event, and they were getting 816 00:57:04,920 --> 00:57:07,360 the same person, the same name and the same description. One person came 817 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:12,360 to actually video the figure in this area. Now no one had seen this 818 00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:16,280 figure in this area before. The name was real, but of a completely 819 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:21,280 different place, nearly different history of Supermatch activity. The name I gave it, 820 00:57:22,159 --> 00:57:23,920 but it was the same time frame as I said it was a Victorian 821 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,239 tim I said this car was from. It was the same timeframe as the 822 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,239 real person by this name I had been seen and located, but it wasn't 823 00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:37,360 anywhere near where identified as being So it was as if it kind of again. 824 00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:38,280 It didn't just make it out on the spur of the moment. It 825 00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:45,320 was a deliberate plan. I had to try and manifest this particular person at 826 00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:47,840 this particular location, and as far as I could see, it worked. 827 00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:54,320 So my own personal experience of the Philip experience was to create a mythology of 828 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,519 a particular figure, and it, as far as I know, worked. 829 00:57:58,719 --> 00:58:00,400 I've not been to this location a long time. I don't always been there 830 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,880 for a long time, so I don't know if it's still manifesting, but 831 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,159 certainly when I went there probably a year or so later, having someone else 832 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:12,679 who was new to the location tell me they were picking up on this figure, 833 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,119 describing and naming the same name I've given it. That was quite remarkable. 834 00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:20,800 It's quite taken aback by that. For this works. Isn't just a 835 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,000 case I've made a story that people who remembered or passing the story. It's 836 00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:27,840 not chine vispas here. This is a manifestation of what's called the Tulpa, 837 00:58:28,119 --> 00:58:31,519 which is this idea that Tolpa's created entities. If you like that, I 838 00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:37,280 created the Tulpa that was now existing at this location. Yeah. I've been 839 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,559 thinking about this a lot in the last twenty four hours or so. This 840 00:58:40,719 --> 00:58:47,360 is all I've been thinking about, and the subject of haunted cemeteries came to 841 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:52,039 mind. You know, all of these old cemeteries in New England, they 842 00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:58,039 all have a ghost story and a lot of the time they don't really tie 843 00:58:58,119 --> 00:59:02,280 to an actual person, or you know, you can't you can't figure out 844 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:08,519 who this person is. But you have all of these people going, living 845 00:59:08,559 --> 00:59:15,480 people going to this place with very strong emotions that probably very much would like 846 00:59:15,719 --> 00:59:22,880 to connect and see something. And I think that like living human energy is 847 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:28,960 very powerful, and I think that might explain a lot of things, and 848 00:59:29,119 --> 00:59:31,199 you know, not just cemeteries, but like the monument I was at where 849 00:59:31,239 --> 00:59:37,559 I had an experience, and you know, I think you've mentioned the concept 850 00:59:37,679 --> 00:59:43,239 of lay lines being created by people traveling in the same paths for years and 851 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:50,480 years. We have something similar like that here as well. Interesting there was 852 00:59:50,519 --> 00:59:55,599 a legend of old graveyards that they are protected or guarded by called Genius Loki 853 00:59:55,719 --> 01:00:00,480 geni i Loki, which can sometimes be can sometimes be the first person that 854 01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:04,840 was buried there. They became like the guardian of the site. But people 855 01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,519 do talk about seeing these sort of strange figures, small figures in churchyards that 856 01:00:08,559 --> 01:00:12,599 aren't linked to a particular person, that seemed to be the spirit that guards 857 01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:16,159 the place. And I've something along those lines many years ago. This is 858 01:00:16,159 --> 01:00:19,679 a bit of a long story. I try and keep it relatively brief. 859 01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,800 I was involved in what's called psychic questing. Psychic questing where you get impressions 860 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,639 of locations and you go to visit them, and they tend to lead to 861 01:00:27,719 --> 01:00:30,000 one place to another to another, and some of the lead to things, 862 01:00:30,119 --> 01:00:34,039 lead to strange experiences, lead to discovering things like rituals taking place, that 863 01:00:34,119 --> 01:00:37,119 sort of thing, And on one particular occasion we were led to a place 864 01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:40,760 called Danbury Church in Essex. Now Danbury Church had featured a few years prior 865 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,280 in a book written by Andy Collins called The Black Alchemist, which was here 866 01:00:45,639 --> 01:00:51,519 and another girl called Bonan's experience of basically tackling somebody who was clearly doing something 867 01:00:51,559 --> 01:00:57,159 in the landscape causing negative things to occur. Previously pleasant sacred sites have become 868 01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:00,800 polluted with that negative energy were very unpleasant. Again, it's all real, 869 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,880 it's all true stories, and we'd been interested in this, we seeing Andy 870 01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,079 Colin's give talk to me. In fact, that's my first real, more 871 01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:09,440 sort of more grown up experience of working with this stuff. I was working 872 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:14,199 with any Condoness group in the nineties were we'd gone to Danary Church just on 873 01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,360 a whim. Really, it was a warm Friday evening, it was a 874 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,800 middle of summer. We walked through the gates of the churchyard and it went 875 01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:27,239 cold. I mean literally you felt the temperature drop around you. It was 876 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:29,840 one of the guys in the group was so freaked out. You went back 877 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:31,039 to the car and sat in the cart. We didn't want to go any 878 01:01:31,079 --> 01:01:35,199 further. It was really was quite strange. And as we walked past the 879 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,280 church was on our left round to where the graveyard was, there was a 880 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:44,719 figure at the back. It was a small black figure that just sort of 881 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,880 was standing by the tree and then ran incredible speed, just disappeared literally out 882 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,599 in the back of the place. Now we found out later on that the 883 01:01:52,719 --> 01:01:54,760 church itself was built on the sort of the site of a Roman fort, 884 01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:00,360 so been occupied for thousands of years, and that was probably a genius loci 885 01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:02,320 the spirit of the site. It was definitely I think it was an orderly 886 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,280 person. I mean, it could have been a child ghosts about this possibly, 887 01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,599 but there was a definite vibe there and this figure was there watching and 888 01:02:08,719 --> 01:02:14,360 just ran off really really quickly. So that was an experience of that kind 889 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,320 of thing. So very interesting that you said it was a little figure. 890 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:27,519 So Paquaji is the oldest lore you know, before you you have the Puritan 891 01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:34,320 cirsa. They were guardians of burial sites, so lots of little people guarding 892 01:02:34,559 --> 01:02:37,199 burial sites. It seems well, that seems to be the whole mythology of 893 01:02:37,239 --> 01:02:40,960 the underworld. These creatures that live, come out of the hills, came 894 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:45,000 out of the ground. They're really small, diminutive creatures who began in English 895 01:02:45,039 --> 01:02:49,119 folks are they're all over the place to see them described for centuries as the 896 01:02:49,199 --> 01:02:52,440 goblins and those sort of things that elves or small creatures. But again it's 897 01:02:52,519 --> 01:02:54,840 there, obviously is a connection. And when you've talked before about the whole 898 01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:59,119 idea of the fact that they'll land mass at the world was jointed here at 899 01:02:59,159 --> 01:03:02,280 one point of these things perhaps have progressed across. I mean again it comes 900 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:06,800 to the ig of these aren't just sort of profession creatures there obviously are more 901 01:03:07,159 --> 01:03:09,440 than that. So they could be incredibly ancient, and they always been around 902 01:03:09,559 --> 01:03:17,119 us, and they've more the various forms depending on the culture and the mythology 903 01:03:17,159 --> 01:03:21,639 that surrounds the folk that surrounds it. Was obviously idea is very much an 904 01:03:21,639 --> 01:03:23,679 American thing, links to American natives, of course. Was over here we've 905 01:03:23,679 --> 01:03:27,679 got more of the fay, the goblins, those kinds of things, which 906 01:03:27,679 --> 01:03:30,880 again linked to sort of British and Irish folklore. But I think they're the 907 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,880 same thing. Yes, And that bloody word pug bodgy get stuck in my 908 01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:42,280 head for weeks. Yeah, exactly. Yes, it does sound like a 909 01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:47,519 cruise wordy, doesn't it. You know, But this kind of falls into 910 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,360 what Susan they were talking about before the show a little bit. You know, 911 01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:57,280 how do we determine what if we're communicating with what we think is a 912 01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,599 spirit of the dead, what you know, how do we know that? 913 01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:06,639 And I have I've mentioned several times this book called Hungry Ghosts by Joe Fisher, 914 01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:11,360 where he was in contact through a medium with a lot of you know, 915 01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,280 I suppose World War two pilots that were killed and a woman that went 916 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,880 way back to ancient Greece and all this stuff, and he would get information 917 01:04:20,039 --> 01:04:23,800 that was dead on accurate, and a lot of it were There were just 918 01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:27,159 huge gaps in it. It just didn't make any sense. It was wrong. 919 01:04:27,639 --> 01:04:30,280 But when I asked Susie, and I want to ask you Andy, 920 01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:35,159 uh, you know, we have this tradition of imprints and people that die 921 01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:39,840 and for whatever the mechanism is. Sometimes it's eave an imprint, which is 922 01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:43,840 not an intelligent haunting. And then there's others that believe there are a separate, 923 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:48,280 whole, separate category that we have the intelligent hauntings. Is it possible 924 01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:53,000 with all we've just talked about with a Tolpa and that the Philip experiment and 925 01:04:53,119 --> 01:04:59,320 so forth, is it possible that some of these imprints eventually become more interactive 926 01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,679 because of there, you know, people's connections with them or interactions with them. 927 01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:08,079 Is it possible that that that person's essence or soul has moved on to 928 01:05:08,199 --> 01:05:11,960 wherever it goes, but this this imprint has taken out of life of his 929 01:05:12,079 --> 01:05:15,599 own, although it's not really that person, but can be interactive and give 930 01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:20,440 messages. Absolutely, I think completely. As you know, I very much 931 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,480 adhere to the notion that these things don't have identities of their own at all. 932 01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:29,199 They are hot, they are formed, not so biased, they've always 933 01:05:29,239 --> 01:05:31,039 been here, but they will take on a form identity that fits with what 934 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:35,519 we have as a belief system, our expectations. And so if you have 935 01:05:35,719 --> 01:05:41,559 a location where energy exists that's been left in imprints, these things can then 936 01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:46,199 manifest those imprints. So you get that kind of different levels mean you get 937 01:05:46,239 --> 01:05:50,119 the obviously of the repeating hauntings of the older sort of thing. It's walking 938 01:05:50,159 --> 01:05:54,199 through doors it used to be that aren't there anymore those kind of asidual hauntings, 939 01:05:54,679 --> 01:05:57,119 and then you get this more active stuff, and I think one can 940 01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,239 move to the other again. From my memory of experience and investigations we've had 941 01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,880 that with this thing almost seemed to be communicated and then goes back to instead 942 01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:10,760 of being just in the background but observable around it's things. It's so many 943 01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,320 different possible answers as to why that loccurs. But now I do think you 944 01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:15,880 could talk about the idea that there's entry be going on here that eventually the 945 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,800 energy field around does fade away in time, so these things dissipate completely, 946 01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:24,320 which is why perhaps you don't get very very old haunts. People talk about 947 01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:27,599 why in the ghost of dinosaurs that kind of thing, they only go back 948 01:06:27,599 --> 01:06:30,079 to a certain period of time. I think in time the energy just dissipated, 949 01:06:30,079 --> 01:06:34,199 It just spreads out more evenly, and then this thing has no longer 950 01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:39,559 has energy to manifest. Anyone stops appearing as one possibility, but I mean 951 01:06:39,599 --> 01:06:43,239 also strange and homous events that don't for any of the theories. One I've 952 01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:45,719 often mentioned, which is actually fascinate was a friend of mine a few years 953 01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:49,559 ago was doing some research in there was actually the Freemost Library. It was 954 01:06:49,639 --> 01:06:55,840 the Theilosophical Society's library. It's been there since the eighteen hundreds. They were 955 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,679 doing just sitting in a little desk and doing some research, making some notes, 956 01:06:59,199 --> 01:07:00,960 and this figure, a man, he said, just came around the 957 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:05,320 corner one of the bookcases and was dressed in great old fashioned clothing. And 958 01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:10,599 he stopped looked at my friend in complete shock. My friend looked this guy 959 01:07:10,679 --> 01:07:15,079 in complete shock. So the guy then turned away and walked down another book 960 01:07:15,079 --> 01:07:19,159 aisle and disappeared. It was literally we were seeing each other, but clearly 961 01:07:19,199 --> 01:07:23,440 he saw a different time frame, somewhere from the past. But he was 962 01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,800 reacting to my friend sitting at the desk. It wasn't just a residual figure 963 01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,840 walking away, said The guy looked at me and looked shocked. It was 964 01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:32,079 like, you see this man to DestinE, very strange, obviously modern clothing, 965 01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:35,199 and I love he said the same way. So good you go through 966 01:07:35,199 --> 01:07:40,920 the archives of the Philosophical Society and find a ghost report from the eighteen nineties 967 01:07:41,119 --> 01:07:44,519 of his strange young man sitting in a desk in weird clothing. That would 968 01:07:44,519 --> 01:07:48,000 be so brilliant, but we've never found anything. Of course, it was 969 01:07:48,079 --> 01:07:51,360 absolutely it was said it was the weirdest thing. This guy looked straight at 970 01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:55,679 me and looked surprised to see me, and I was surprised to see him. 971 01:07:56,519 --> 01:07:59,800 Wow, what's going on there? But yes, I do think that 972 01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:02,400 the these things exist. They don't have a particular form of their own. 973 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:09,199 As you've talked before. Often first manifests light forms, the lights that are 974 01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,960 a bit strange and people find uncomfortable, and then they begin to fall into 975 01:08:13,039 --> 01:08:16,760 something else. Whether that happens on the single event of being seen as going 976 01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,760 to go from the light form to a being at the same time as bombers 977 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:25,680 watching, or over time they gradually morph into what is expected of the site. 978 01:08:25,720 --> 01:08:29,439 I don't know, but doing that makes more sense than men just you 979 01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,239 know, great art mastery passed away in the nineteen thirties and has come back 980 01:08:31,239 --> 01:08:34,520 to visit you. I think, obviously you get mediums. You go and 981 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,000 see, we'll tell you exactly that's what that person is. It is art 982 01:08:38,039 --> 01:08:41,000 Martha from the age of the nineteen fifties coming to see you. But I 983 01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:45,359 think, maybe controversially, I think mediums are psychic. I think they pick 984 01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,760 up this information from us. You don't have to be thinking about it then 985 01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:54,039 to actually connect with our thought process and our memories, our knowledge. Because 986 01:08:54,079 --> 01:08:56,600 so often you go to these events, and I've been quite a few, 987 01:08:57,039 --> 01:09:00,720 they'll tell you something that you already know. They don't something you don't know. 988 01:09:00,359 --> 01:09:02,960 They might say, we might look into that, because because they have 989 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,760 the information that you're not sure about. But usually when they tell you something, 990 01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,680 it's something that you actually know about. That your great Art Martha passed 991 01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:12,800 away, you know, in the nineteen fifties, you know, but she 992 01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,880 left you something. You know, you know that you're not thinking it, 993 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:17,960 but they can pick up that information from you. And I think that's again 994 01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:24,039 it could be that they've got these entity energies around them that are given that 995 01:09:24,159 --> 01:09:29,119 information across and then to the medium. They appear to be Great Art Martha 996 01:09:29,680 --> 01:09:35,279 uncle, but there are actually these things again appearing as like their spirit guide 997 01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:39,880 if you like. There the being that stays with often talk about having the 998 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:44,960 spirit guys that give them information that I've taken a form that this person would 999 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,079 recognize. When quite famous, you had Dereka Korra who used to do the 1000 01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:53,239 TV stuff over here. His guy was called Sam who's actually an African native 1001 01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:56,479 and he's a much longer named than Sam's that he just used to call him. 1002 01:09:56,479 --> 01:09:58,439 It was always with him. It was always Sam was giving this information 1003 01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,600 to him. And I do want to if say, and was this thing 1004 01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:03,159 that attached to himself to Derek Acora. Now, some say that Akora was 1005 01:10:03,199 --> 01:10:05,000 a going to be fake. I don't think so. I mean, I've 1006 01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:09,079 atually met the guy and spoken with him a few times. He seemed very 1007 01:10:09,199 --> 01:10:12,319 very genuine. He genuinely believed in his abilities, whether or not he believed 1008 01:10:12,359 --> 01:10:15,159 in them. For certain and other mediums i've met, you know, they're 1009 01:10:15,199 --> 01:10:18,119 actoutely convinced that they have the spirit. Guys, they have this communication going 1010 01:10:18,159 --> 01:10:23,640 on. But I don't necessarily put the idea across them what I think is 1011 01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:26,640 going on. But they seem very genuine people. I've met people I always 1012 01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,279 say are absolutely fakes. Definitely people who know things like NLP, which is 1013 01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,600 a psychologyal technique you can use to get people to think certain things, believe 1014 01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:38,880 certain things. They can cold read your body, the language and when they're 1015 01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,640 telling answering you questions and you can listen to them and they'll ask you a 1016 01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:44,239 question and they'll manipulate the question of just answering, and it appeared to me 1017 01:10:44,279 --> 01:10:46,439 that they're asking something that they weren't actually asking because the answer they've given doesn't 1018 01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,600 quite fit what they think. I've seen that sort of thing often, but 1019 01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:54,079 I've met a few that definitely seem to have a real gift. What that 1020 01:10:54,199 --> 01:10:58,359 gift is is the question. I have a question for both of you. 1021 01:10:59,079 --> 01:11:00,840 I want to definite answers so I can sleep at night. All right, 1022 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:08,199 let me just give a little background. You beat me to it. That's 1023 01:11:08,239 --> 01:11:12,319 that's that's wrong, that's wrong. I already talked about hungry ghosts in the 1024 01:11:12,359 --> 01:11:17,279 way that these uh, these spirits, these contacts were uh would give a 1025 01:11:17,359 --> 01:11:23,279 lot of false information. Uh. We we know about uh John Keel and 1026 01:11:23,359 --> 01:11:27,680 the Silent Contact, these and the Mockland prophecies. How they were receiving information 1027 01:11:28,039 --> 01:11:30,920 someone was dead on accurate and that they would be sent on pointless quests or 1028 01:11:31,359 --> 01:11:36,079 or sometimes a prediction would not come true. So and and also you've got 1029 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:42,680 all the traditions in in folklore, the little people, the elementals oftentimes would 1030 01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,319 play tricks. So what I'm getting at is the trickster, which is something 1031 01:11:45,399 --> 01:11:50,199 that is it permeates all this stuff, or much of it. So I 1032 01:11:50,399 --> 01:11:57,119 want to know where does the trickster phenomena originate? How does that work? 1033 01:11:59,079 --> 01:12:09,359 The question? My feeling on it is they're more like an elemental ultraterrestrial type 1034 01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:15,880 thing. But I might look at it a little bit differently, where it's 1035 01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:24,000 a very human quality to have people do it all the time. I always 1036 01:12:24,079 --> 01:12:28,279 say that I love Paco because I can relate to them. You know, 1037 01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:32,520 I might tie your shoes together if you're not paying attention. I might hide 1038 01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:35,680 your car keys when you're running late for work, just to entertain myself. 1039 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,359 And it's a good thing. You've got an ocean between you and her, 1040 01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,239 and I've got several states in between Susie and I, So I'm not going 1041 01:12:44,279 --> 01:12:47,079 to be looking at my shoes the whole time. But if I was a 1042 01:12:47,199 --> 01:12:53,840 paranormal entity, I would want to entertain myself a little bit, wouldn't I. 1043 01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:59,880 You know, the not so much. In the new place living, 1044 01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:02,840 we've had a couple of minor things happening. Ironically, I know at least 1045 01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:06,920 one person's died in this house, maybe possibly two. But we've had one 1046 01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:13,680 incidence a few times where seeing a black cat moving across the room. Got 1047 01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:15,119 quite a long, narrow lounge, and I'm at one end and I've seen 1048 01:13:15,119 --> 01:13:17,479 it at the other end, and I've seen a couple of times, definitely 1049 01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:20,439 seeing that a black form move past. Now you think of a black cat 1050 01:13:20,479 --> 01:13:23,920 because it's that kind of shape or form. I had a friend of mine 1051 01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:26,600 who's the author of the second book I've just published, stayed with me about 1052 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:29,000 a month ago and he saw it. He said, I was sitting in 1053 01:13:29,119 --> 01:13:31,720 the lounge and I said that a cat covered the next door. No, 1054 01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:36,319 a little black cat visitor. I've had a cough, quite clear laud and 1055 01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:40,079 I conservative when we first moved in, but I think that's been pretty quiet. 1056 01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,840 My old house was quite a different matter. Now you think I've lived 1057 01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,680 there twenty years, doing a lot of ritual magic stuff in my office space, 1058 01:13:47,359 --> 01:13:50,399 and I've had people walk in with FI actually a real calm atmosphere and 1059 01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,880 really kind of powerful atmosphere. I mean, it was positive stuff. I 1060 01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,039 didn't do it if it does but sinister that I did outside, not in 1061 01:13:56,119 --> 01:14:00,680 the house, but that had a real strong element of tricks to ish occasional 1062 01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:05,239 stuff. Are things being moved just being moved around? Now? Whether it's 1063 01:14:05,279 --> 01:14:10,680 done because they want to be irritating or just because that's the way of showing 1064 01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:15,439 their present, I don't know, but we've had times where things have absolutely 1065 01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,279 definitely moved. When one story I've told a few times was I used to 1066 01:14:17,279 --> 01:14:21,760 have a little water pistol that was by our kitchen sink. The reason that 1067 01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:26,159 was one of the neighbors cats is the old place used to occasially crapping our 1068 01:14:26,239 --> 01:14:29,079 lawn, which is rather annoying. So basically hoping that were going to skirt 1069 01:14:29,119 --> 01:14:30,079 the cap of the water pestol the run away, and it usually did. 1070 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,960 Now that pistol was by the sink. So the sink, the windows sink 1071 01:14:34,199 --> 01:14:38,720 just to the left, was in the corner there it disappeared, hadn't seen 1072 01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:41,720 it for a while. Other side of the kitchen, on cabinets, you 1073 01:14:41,800 --> 01:14:46,960 know, above my head high were some glass flower of arses and one particularly 1074 01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:50,199 after in mainly bought some flowers and took the one that get on the varsites 1075 01:14:50,279 --> 01:14:55,239 down the water pitstol was up there. Now how the hell it got up 1076 01:14:55,279 --> 01:14:59,479 there is an absolute mystery, no idea. We've had a clean because we 1077 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:01,399 were lazy doing the housekis we actually rang and after you'd move and she didn't 1078 01:15:01,399 --> 01:15:06,600 know what we're talking about. There's no way either Manny's similar to the Suzius. 1079 01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:09,319 She could have reached up there and I know I didn't do it, 1080 01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:12,560 and it moved up there. And now you could say that's just a tricks 1081 01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,479 to being annoying, or it was having the spirit of a catch when I 1082 01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:17,960 prevent a spirt of water, don't you know? It was that kind of 1083 01:15:18,359 --> 01:15:23,520 phenomenon was not uncommon. Things would move quite a distance from where they had 1084 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:26,800 been before. They couldn't have fallen there like. It was a piece of 1085 01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:30,640 wood just about foot long that came from the Holy Falling Glastonbury, which is 1086 01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:33,800 a legendary tree. Now some brack kids have broken some branches off and I 1087 01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:39,000 just picked on the marshes up to keep don to waste it. I'd taken 1088 01:15:39,039 --> 01:15:41,840 it home. I've actually polished the wood up. It was a lindseid or 1089 01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:44,960 so it was a really nice condition. It was in my office on one 1090 01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,399 top of one of the bookcases, and this is quite a while. I 1091 01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:51,159 found it moved from the bookcase to the middle of the room. Now there's 1092 01:15:51,159 --> 01:15:54,800 nowhere could have fallen from there. It would have to have been lift up 1093 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,279 and put in the middle of the room. No reason to do that, 1094 01:15:57,319 --> 01:16:00,479 there's nothing interesting about doing that, but it was there. I had a 1095 01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,520 previous experience back in the old flat lived in London, which sorry before, 1096 01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:08,920 with a tub of copy decks glue which I used to use for a leased 1097 01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,800 repair Vincay's Fountain Bends. I had a small back room in the flat where 1098 01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:15,640 I used to do some repair work in there and there was quite a last 1099 01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:19,520 tub of glue. Disappeared, completely vanished, couldn't find it anywhere. About 1100 01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:25,239 a month afterwards I was come upstairs. It was amazing that and you can't 1101 01:16:25,319 --> 01:16:28,960 stairs. You see along the corridor to the back room in the middle of 1102 01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:32,199 the floor there was a copy decks. It's about a month after it disappeared 1103 01:16:32,239 --> 01:16:34,720 and it has completely vanxi. It was nowhere in that room and it buys 1104 01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:38,840 them more. And yet there it was back in the middle of the room. 1105 01:16:39,039 --> 01:16:41,600 Again. Was it tricks to spirit or was it just someone trying to 1106 01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,119 get my attention? I don't know. Again, did ritual stuff in there? 1107 01:16:44,239 --> 01:16:46,319 Maybe it was a residual from that, but yeah, the legend of 1108 01:16:46,359 --> 01:16:50,159 the trickster is ancient. It goes back ancient Greece and that kind of thing. 1109 01:16:50,199 --> 01:16:54,319 It's always been there, and I think there is this Your question could 1110 01:16:54,319 --> 01:16:57,119 be is it just trying to get your attention or it just is it trying 1111 01:16:57,119 --> 01:17:00,000 to be irritating. I mean, shoe tying could be a way of geting 1112 01:17:00,079 --> 01:17:04,520 attention and hiding keys get attention sort of thing maybe a child might do to 1113 01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:13,279 like a self charging because if they need the thought and the energy and all 1114 01:17:13,359 --> 01:17:16,119 of that to kind of move on, they need you to pay attention to 1115 01:17:16,199 --> 01:17:20,720 them. Right, Yes, have I told you about my my missing headphones 1116 01:17:21,239 --> 01:17:31,079 in that debacle? Not yet? So earbuds. They are the probably most 1117 01:17:31,159 --> 01:17:36,359 important part of my life all the time. Every day I have several of 1118 01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,359 them because the battery will be dead by the end of the day, so 1119 01:17:40,399 --> 01:17:45,760 I switch them out. Right. This has been happening for about three years 1120 01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:48,159 now. And it'll come in spurts, and then it'll stop for a while 1121 01:17:48,199 --> 01:17:55,640 and start again. But they will disappear. I leave them in the same 1122 01:17:55,720 --> 01:18:00,640 place. Sometimes I wake up and they're gone. They will then reappear in 1123 01:18:01,039 --> 01:18:04,800 like the middle of a room after I've like torn it top to bottom. 1124 01:18:05,119 --> 01:18:13,680 Yeah, And then so that that's like just become a normal occurrence. And 1125 01:18:14,239 --> 01:18:19,600 I at one point got so frustrated that, you know, I just out 1126 01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:26,199 of desperation, like I needed my headphones. I could not function through work 1127 01:18:26,359 --> 01:18:31,680 without them. I got out my grandfather's dowsing rods. I found them with 1128 01:18:31,800 --> 01:18:38,600 that excellent Where they had been was right when you come in my front door, 1129 01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:43,399 there is like a basket of shoes, and I have baseboard heaters. 1130 01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:48,560 It was behind the basket of shoes underneath the heater, so I never would 1131 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:55,680 have found it there. And also my cats aren't capable of that. Because 1132 01:18:55,720 --> 01:19:00,680 they were, they were blamed a lot for it. And then most recently, 1133 01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:04,520 this was right around the time of the fire incident, when I went 1134 01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:11,680 to my great grandmother's old house, the probably the second most important thing to 1135 01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:18,479 me, my Messkira disappeared. And then I went into the the linen closet 1136 01:19:19,039 --> 01:19:26,520 because I usually have extras in there gone those that was months ago. I 1137 01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:32,199 still haven't found them. There's strange. These things definitely happen. We have 1138 01:19:32,239 --> 01:19:35,760 a little joke in this house actually, which is just remembered. Things don't 1139 01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:40,640 fall vertically in this house. You drop somebody, it doesn't land in front 1140 01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:43,760 of you. It's sort of over there, somewhere, get over there, 1141 01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:45,920 you know. I'll sit at my desk and I dropped it on the floor 1142 01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:48,239 and it's like, what is it gone? Whether it's a panicmal or, 1143 01:19:48,239 --> 01:19:50,560 I don't know, but it just it just seems to happen that stranger. 1144 01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:55,600 But yeah, one of those things. I think it's probably fairly common. 1145 01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:57,960 But again people dismiss it, and I think, oh, maybe I never 1146 01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:01,359 forgot about it. But I just that reached for normality or normalcy as you 1147 01:20:01,399 --> 01:20:05,760 Americans like to call it. That that's almost like it's the least probable explanation, 1148 01:20:06,079 --> 01:20:10,359 but you prefer it to the alternative that maybe something has moved them. 1149 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:15,279 Again, I think the problem we have is that people are afraid of ghosts 1150 01:20:15,359 --> 01:20:18,079 for want of a better term, because of seeing the films, and unfortunately 1151 01:20:18,159 --> 01:20:21,840 that does create a lot of illusion. Again. I found myself only this 1152 01:20:21,920 --> 01:20:26,520 week talking to somebody about one of my favorite topics, the Nfield politic Glass 1153 01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:30,479 in the UK. The UK Field protagasts again seeing the Conjuring movie and thinks 1154 01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:33,119 it's real, thinks it's a true story. It's like, there's no way 1155 01:20:33,319 --> 01:20:36,520 near what really happened. They were amagon and etcetera. What I was saying 1156 01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,439 to them, I've had that in the past where people have just said no, 1157 01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,199 no, no, you're wrong. You know the film was perfectly true. 1158 01:20:42,439 --> 01:20:45,800 Warren's are wonderful, so that will No, there's nothing like what happened 1159 01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:47,800 with the Warrens. It was not that. I mean, as I said, 1160 01:20:49,079 --> 01:20:53,359 first of all, absolutely yes, they turn it uninvited. No one 1161 01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:57,000 actually invited. They just heard about it, was involved, stayed for a 1162 01:20:57,079 --> 01:21:00,359 day. Ed was overheard saying, always Moneys, we made out of this 1163 01:21:00,399 --> 01:21:01,760 and he was asked to leave by guy below and Playfair, who was on 1164 01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:04,520 the real investigators. I mean the fact that the movie leaves out guy like 1165 01:21:04,640 --> 01:21:09,159 in Playfair, one of the one of the two main investigators. It's ridiculous. 1166 01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:12,520 And one person's response was, or how do you know he was there? 1167 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,079 Well, I've interviewed the guy, so I know you was there. 1168 01:21:15,159 --> 01:21:17,800 Yeah, but how do you know you as the heu like three famous here, 1169 01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,800 there's been video being there, but she wouldn't have it because he's not 1170 01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:25,319 in the Hundry and two movies. So you know, it's one of those 1171 01:21:25,359 --> 01:21:30,399 things. It's how things get portrayed. I mean, people get scared very 1172 01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:33,319 easy on the ghost investigations. There was one occasion again my favorite location, 1173 01:21:33,439 --> 01:21:38,079 or Chester Mansion, in that chapel I mentioned. We had a group of 1174 01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:42,479 about three or four of them army guys who were on leave, going on 1175 01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:45,359 with the girlfriends just for the fun of it. And we were standing in 1176 01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,600 the dark in the chapel area and we're just talking about what was picking up 1177 01:21:48,119 --> 01:21:53,920 and it was a little bit windy outside and the door slammed, and let 1178 01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,279 me just be offensive, but the one of the guys screamed like a girl. 1179 01:21:56,319 --> 01:22:00,319 I ran straight into the wall and literally almost knocked himself out. Here's 1180 01:22:00,520 --> 01:22:05,680 been raw marine. You out my coffee. He was a raw marine and 1181 01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:10,479 he's like freaked out with a door slam scared the life out of it. 1182 01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:13,640 And you know you're trying to kill you know, you come off from the 1183 01:22:13,640 --> 01:22:17,800 fire Wars, but I'm doing a hold house in the turn that hit the 1184 01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:21,079 wall. Maybe guys would have been all right, it wouldn't have freaked us 1185 01:22:21,119 --> 01:22:27,560 out. But what I wonder is that there was a U I saw this 1186 01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:30,199 pari psychologists on TV years ago. Don't know what his name was, but 1187 01:22:30,319 --> 01:22:34,199 he was talking about automatic writing, and he said that most of it's coming 1188 01:22:34,239 --> 01:22:38,760 from your own subconscious well, he did believe some of it might be coming 1189 01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:42,439 from elsewhere. He said, you have to be very careful because it starts 1190 01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:45,800 out being friendly and then more intimate, and then he said it can even 1191 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:49,880 become very nasty and damaging even though it's coming from you. And then we 1192 01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:56,239 have the so called story of Alexandria David Neil and magic and mystery in Tibet, 1193 01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:00,239 where she supposedly this nineteen ten created a tulpa learned how to form a 1194 01:23:00,319 --> 01:23:02,880 tult but from the Tibetans. I don't know if the story's true or not, 1195 01:23:03,239 --> 01:23:08,760 but she formed this jolly little lama that the sage to see you're not 1196 01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:14,640 the animal. And over time it became kind of evil and nasty and trickster 1197 01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:17,399 ish, you know, it almost became something like a poltergeist. So what 1198 01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:23,560 I'm wondering is is it possible that the the the trickster phenomena which has been 1199 01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:30,239 with mankind since we've been here, is it possibly does it emanate from maybe 1200 01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,720 a dark part of the hue of the human consciousness, the id, so 1201 01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:39,399 to speak, And some of it It may not all be totally negative. 1202 01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:43,560 Some of it may be playful and tricksteris. But it seems it might suggest 1203 01:23:44,039 --> 01:23:47,039 that a lot that it kind of goes along with the parallel that a lot 1204 01:23:47,079 --> 01:23:54,560 of these things are uh deal with human consciousness or co created with whatever energy 1205 01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:58,760 is out there. So I don't I don't, I don't tend to think 1206 01:23:58,920 --> 01:24:05,159 of these always as separate little entities with the consciousness playing tricks. I think 1207 01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:12,479 maybe it could be reflectant of the reflection of the collective unconscious if you will, 1208 01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:15,560 or someple level of it absolutely agree with you. I think it's getting 1209 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:20,960 it your expectation, your experiences, but also what you're suppressing within yourself. 1210 01:24:21,319 --> 01:24:24,520 I mean, this is a big thing in the of your culture. You 1211 01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:27,800 have to deal with that. Ego statements with yourself, you have to get 1212 01:24:27,840 --> 01:24:30,000 through that, you have to deal with it, a quit crossing the abyss. 1213 01:24:30,039 --> 01:24:32,119 It's very much as part of the journey. If you involved in esoteric 1214 01:24:32,159 --> 01:24:35,159 practices, you have to deal with that. A very good example, which 1215 01:24:35,199 --> 01:24:40,159 I'll talk about just briefly, was in Nokian magic from doctor John Dee from 1216 01:24:40,399 --> 01:24:45,199 the fifteen hundreds. There is a process in that in which you describe through 1217 01:24:45,319 --> 01:24:47,359 their tears or athears. Now these are realms, if you like, of 1218 01:24:48,079 --> 01:24:51,039 either deep psyche or out there when you will look at it. But you 1219 01:24:51,119 --> 01:24:57,640 will encounter different beings entities as you work through the Nokia levels. But how 1220 01:24:57,760 --> 01:25:02,279 you experience those levels definitely dependent upon your personality and who you are. Alistair 1221 01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:05,800 Crowley, who may have heard of rather famously, had his own experience of 1222 01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:10,520 walking working with these levels the Vision and the Voice the book was called, 1223 01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:15,560 and his experiences someone was quite negative, quite unpleasant. As a particular being 1224 01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:18,600 he encounters called krons On, which is called the guardian of the abyss. 1225 01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:23,920 It's the guardian of the way you cross over. John d himself described it 1226 01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:28,000 as being a version of the devil. And certainly how Alisa Crowe describes his 1227 01:25:28,039 --> 01:25:32,159 experience of corons and it's very negative, very frightening. But his experience was 1228 01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:36,720 almost unique to him. When I worked with this stuff in the nineteen nineties, 1229 01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:40,920 my experience was very different. It was much more of a serene, 1230 01:25:41,079 --> 01:25:45,720 very powerful figure, but much calmer and more serene. Was there almost like 1231 01:25:45,840 --> 01:25:48,199 to just to see if you could get across not literally abits, but you 1232 01:25:48,239 --> 01:25:54,520 could actually progress past the pounch possible fear of this strong energy. And what 1233 01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:58,439 I found fascinating was nineteen nineties, early does the Internet. I started looking 1234 01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:00,800 up stuff on anochy magic, and I found a guy in Denmark who'd been 1235 01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:05,439 practicing for years and accorded to all his experiences, and what he described was 1236 01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:10,279 far closer to my experiences than what Crowd had written in his book. And 1237 01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,239 it seemed to me that because Alsa Creley was his ego, mainly act but 1238 01:26:13,359 --> 01:26:17,159 possibly done rather pleasant things over the years, that what he experienced was a 1239 01:26:17,199 --> 01:26:24,960 manifestation his own inflated ego rather than a more relaxed date approach. So he 1240 01:26:25,119 --> 01:26:29,399 was experiencing in the way he'd expected it to be or reflected who he was. 1241 01:26:29,960 --> 01:26:32,840 So, yeah, how you experienced this stuff, it does depend on 1242 01:26:32,960 --> 01:26:36,359 you as a person. And as I said earlier on often if you're trying 1243 01:26:36,359 --> 01:26:40,439 to experience this when you're younger, seem to trigger this kind of connection. 1244 01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:43,600 But then ultimately you've got to probably deal with that experience. Now. As 1245 01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,159 a therapist, of course, I've helped people deal with those experiences in a 1246 01:26:46,239 --> 01:26:49,960 more mundane day to day way, but certainly in working with the occult there 1247 01:26:50,039 --> 01:26:51,840 was always that risk. You're going to have to deal with this stuff. 1248 01:26:51,840 --> 01:26:56,720 It was a good Jeff. It was a mystic from Russia for the eighteen 1249 01:26:56,800 --> 01:27:00,279 hundreds said, you know, there's always a real danger of going insane if 1250 01:27:00,319 --> 01:27:03,279 you're not probably balanced exploring the accountant's not literally and you start opening up parts 1251 01:27:03,319 --> 01:27:08,119 of your own deep psyche that perhaps you need to explore with a professional. 1252 01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:11,960 You don't have that facility around you. If you start exploring, you can't 1253 01:27:12,039 --> 01:27:17,000 self analyze, but you can create an opening in your psyche by not looking 1254 01:27:17,039 --> 01:27:21,760 after yourself. Probably doing this sort of stuff. Go ahead, you can 1255 01:27:21,880 --> 01:27:29,119 bill me for your psychotherapy, right Andy. But so whenever I have had 1256 01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:38,000 anything possibly described as paranormal, I feel like that means I need to do 1257 01:27:38,239 --> 01:27:44,600 something like go on some kind of quest, like a rescue mission. Is 1258 01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:49,600 that common or is that a Susie thing? I think it's not very common, 1259 01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:55,720 But yeah, I think usually people have a spiritual experience if you like, 1260 01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,760 it's a more broader term, and you do start to question more things 1261 01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,199 around you, and it is opening yourself up. We have been very conditioned 1262 01:28:02,239 --> 01:28:06,039 and don't to get under it too deeply philosophy stuff, but we're very conditioned 1263 01:28:06,039 --> 01:28:10,760 into thinking about what we call the subject object relation. The idea is you're 1264 01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:14,560 a subject and the world there's an object that's different from you and separate from 1265 01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:18,640 you. It's nonsense. We are all unified as one. The whole idea 1266 01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:24,760 of discreet independent consciousness comes back to Descar and the sixteen hundreds that it's not 1267 01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:29,600 true. That's not how it works conscious itself. Your own awareness only forms 1268 01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,239 relation to others around you. Your sense of self exists in relation to others 1269 01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:36,399 around you. You have to be the observer being observed. It doesn't form 1270 01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:41,560 by itself, so it's all dependent on what's going on around you. And 1271 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,279 sometimes realizing there is a strange level connectivity that exists opens you up to all 1272 01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:49,920 sorts of possibilities. And these kind of spiritual experiences do open the door. 1273 01:28:50,279 --> 01:28:54,560 You've then got to walk through that door or walk through the tunnel that opens 1274 01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,479 up, and that totally can be quite unpleasant, But there's a bright light 1275 01:28:57,520 --> 01:28:59,920 at the end of it, which is the other side of that time. 1276 01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:02,560 And i'd better understand you yourself in the world around you. I mean, 1277 01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:05,960 it changes you, absolutely will change you. If you start to really explore 1278 01:29:06,039 --> 01:29:09,920 that. People do have to say, have experiences, and they just ignore 1279 01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,960 them or dismiss them or get on with ordinary life. I think that doesn't 1280 01:29:13,279 --> 01:29:16,960 mean anything. But if you watch maybe I watched Scooby Do too much. 1281 01:29:19,199 --> 01:29:23,159 A little fun fact that Scooby Doo. Do you realize it? Not a 1282 01:29:23,359 --> 01:29:26,960 single one of the cartoons had a real ghost in it, None of them. 1283 01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:30,439 The first time they encoure it anything paranormal is the first movie, like 1284 01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,760 actually movie you go back and watch them. There's no ghosts in a single 1285 01:29:34,159 --> 01:29:36,560 scubby the people have seen. Of course it was it wasn't you know, 1286 01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,640 you look it up, not a single ghost. You know. It was 1287 01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:42,640 always someone doing something naughty, expeting to be a ghost, you know, 1288 01:29:43,079 --> 01:29:45,479 the owner of the amusement park. Yeah, exactly, there's best kids spot 1289 01:29:46,319 --> 01:29:55,000 old man so and so, and they was exactly exactly. Scooby Doo was 1290 01:29:55,199 --> 01:30:02,880 a little after my time I had matured pas and cartoons. It's still like 1291 01:30:02,960 --> 01:30:09,680 Johnny quest, I mean, come on, well, but uh let's see 1292 01:30:09,680 --> 01:30:13,760 what what's our time here? We're an hour and a half. Uh should 1293 01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:16,319 we should we start to wrap it up? Or should we uh uh go 1294 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:26,640 for another hour? I do have one more thing, so Andy and I 1295 01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:32,880 were also talking about somebody saying that ghosts are going extinct in the UK. 1296 01:30:34,920 --> 01:30:40,279 What I need anyone, any of the UK listeners to go out there and 1297 01:30:40,399 --> 01:30:45,960 start making ghosts just like we described and the show. We're not what. 1298 01:30:46,279 --> 01:30:49,920 We don't want them to meet their demise that we want them to create the 1299 01:30:50,079 --> 01:30:56,439 mental ghosts rights. Make that clear. We don't the stand in front of 1300 01:30:56,479 --> 01:31:01,199 the back. No, no, we're not that desperate Rumpy below. I 1301 01:31:01,239 --> 01:31:03,199 mean, I've read the article. It was a free old thing to come 1302 01:31:03,239 --> 01:31:05,680 out with me. I want name, but I do know who he is 1303 01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:10,920 and we've had discussions in the past many years. Find out for you referred 1304 01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:14,119 to my favorite location, Wilchester Mansion has been a haunted as a shoe box, 1305 01:31:14,159 --> 01:31:15,960 and I'm thinking maybe you were there, mate, But you know the 1306 01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:21,119 count the stories of very strange experiences that Wold Mansion. So it's one of 1307 01:31:21,159 --> 01:31:26,199 those things. I think what can often happen is in the paranormal community over 1308 01:31:26,239 --> 01:31:29,479 here particularly, people take up our position and they will defend that position no 1309 01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:32,720 matter what. And you want to become the go to person for the newspapers 1310 01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,760 or the TV to go to them. And we've got oh it's his name, 1311 01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:42,119 slip my mind. Now there's one. There's a couple of professors of 1312 01:31:42,199 --> 01:31:45,880 you over here, if you're like doctors of science, who're the go to 1313 01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,000 people that always pop up when they talk about goot, so the paranormal they 1314 01:31:48,000 --> 01:31:50,760 are, so their opinion, both names have completely escaped me. I do 1315 01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:54,600 apologize, but you know, it's a look at your thing to get into 1316 01:31:54,600 --> 01:31:57,279 because then you can do talks and you write books and they get published and 1317 01:31:57,319 --> 01:32:00,600 that kind of thing. So maybe this person was having a stabber getting in 1318 01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:04,000 those kind of headlines because obviously it worked because people have read the real idea. 1319 01:32:04,039 --> 01:32:08,800 But they're not there's just as many guesses as everyone was over here, 1320 01:32:09,239 --> 01:32:13,720 not fading away. Maybe they just don't like him very possibly, actually yes, 1321 01:32:13,760 --> 01:32:17,239 we might be offendable what he said about them, But it is a 1322 01:32:17,319 --> 01:32:21,600 strange idea that even I mean, obviously we're a very old country, but 1323 01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:26,560 people have been living here in societies for a very long time, so of 1324 01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:30,000 course we've got lots of ghosts here. It's been suggested we're the most haunted 1325 01:32:30,039 --> 01:32:31,840 country in the world. Has been flooded by the ghost Club. Well, 1326 01:32:31,840 --> 01:32:35,720 obviously, the very first ghost investigating group of any kind of ghost club was 1327 01:32:35,800 --> 01:32:40,279 formed here in the UK, so we have a bit of a history of 1328 01:32:40,279 --> 01:32:45,000 ghost hunting that goes quite a whole way back. Very good. Well, 1329 01:32:45,039 --> 01:32:51,439 I think we got through this show with very little dead air. In fact, 1330 01:32:51,640 --> 01:32:56,279 there was none. Yep, and it is of later over here Cours. 1331 01:32:56,319 --> 01:32:58,560 It's half plast midnight. But we could go on another rout. I'm 1332 01:32:58,560 --> 01:33:00,199 sure there's plenty of things that we could talk of. Definitely, Well, 1333 01:33:00,319 --> 01:33:04,239 we'll see, we'll do this again before too long. We've got endless stuff 1334 01:33:04,279 --> 01:33:08,800 to talk about. And we should also mention that the three of us are 1335 01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:14,359 involved in Susie's uh Paranormal book Club, which is it's still in its infancy. 1336 01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:17,079 We did uh the Mockman Prophecies by John Keele. Next one will be 1337 01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:24,720 Passport to Magonia by Jacques Boulat and uh and I guess we uh we already 1338 01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,439 gave all your information. If they have forgotten, just roll back the tape 1339 01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:30,920 and it'll all be there. Mm hm. So I guess we're going to 1340 01:33:30,960 --> 01:33:35,159 sign off. Any anybody want to say any any parting comments, any any 1341 01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:40,000 pearls of wisdom before we go. Nice. This has been actually good fun 1342 01:33:40,079 --> 01:33:43,159 It's probably the most I've actually spoken on the show for quite a long time. 1343 01:33:45,399 --> 01:33:46,560 Were too bad we don't get paid by the word, you know, 1344 01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:49,600 absolutely, yes, it will be nice to get paid as all the wonderful 1345 01:33:50,439 --> 01:33:54,960 Yeah, that's right, one of these. I'm not getting paid for this. 1346 01:33:55,920 --> 01:34:02,479 No that, Keep watching the mail, Keep watching the mail. One 1347 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:12,640 day commercial, Andy, I think it's a gift certificate for McDonald's. All 1348 01:34:12,720 --> 01:34:15,399 right, I'm going to close out. And this was a blast. By 1349 01:34:15,439 --> 01:34:19,800 the way. The High Strangers Factor was created by Steve Warn and Andy Mercer 1350 01:34:20,119 --> 01:34:25,079 and it's copyrighted on the Paranormal UK Radio network. I want to thank our 1351 01:34:25,199 --> 01:34:30,800 fearless leaders here at Paranormal UK Radio, Iran Alan Block, Mark Johnson and 1352 01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:36,279 Andy Mercer. Also Andy as producer and composer of the closing theme for the 1353 01:34:36,359 --> 01:34:42,560 show and Brian Zeller for the opening theme for The High Strangers Factor. Also 1354 01:34:43,039 --> 01:34:46,680 Susie Bastile for the access to the streamlink, otherwise you wouldn't be hearing us 1355 01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:51,439 at all. I can also be heard on Mac Maloney's Military X Files Weekly 1356 01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:55,880 as a correspondent, whatever that means. I never could figure out what a 1357 01:34:55,880 --> 01:35:00,840 correspondent mean on Mac show. Andy and Susie our guest hosts from time to 1358 01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:05,199 time on MAC Show, which also can be heard on Paranormal UK Radio and 1359 01:35:05,319 --> 01:35:10,439 many other platforms. And I am Steve Word, your humble host here on 1360 01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:15,560 the High Strangeness Factor, a displaced Midwesterner deep in the Ohio Valley, on 1361 01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:19,279 the fringes of Point Pleasant, West Virginia, home of the Mothman Statue and 1362 01:35:19,399 --> 01:35:24,880 the Mothman Museum. Thank you all for listening. Andy, Susie and I 1363 01:35:25,199 --> 01:35:28,399 will see you all again in a fortnight. Take care,