1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,560 and I'm Bill Thomas. We're back again with a crime Con after action report 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,000 from Crime Con Nashville. If you have not had a chance to listen to 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,920 part one of our after action report, please go ahead and do and then 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,079 join us here for part two. So Bill, we left off last time 14 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:03,120 talking about getting to meet one of the most i would say phenomenal and impactful 15 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:07,840 minds in true crime, and that is John Douglas the Mind Hunter himself. 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,159 We were lucky enough to encounter him both in the speaker's room before we went 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:17,200 on stage because we were speaking at the same time he was, and then 18 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,719 later on that evening at a meet and greet before his full house presentation and 19 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,400 evening with the Mind Hunter. What did you think about John Douglas. He 20 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:32,120 was phenomenal. First of all, we had to make a decision to buy 21 00:01:32,159 --> 00:01:38,760 an extra cost ticket in order to hear John Douglas speak at this special kind 22 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:44,400 of secondary evening event. We were really disappointed when we found out that John 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,400 Douglas, who is I think a hero to both of us, that John 24 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:53,719 Douglas was going to be speaking with Chris Hansen at the same time we were 25 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:57,680 presenting on the Colonial Parkray murders, So we knew we were going up against 26 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:02,560 at least, if not the top attraction at this year's Crime Gon, certainly 27 00:02:02,719 --> 00:02:07,759 one of the top three or so. Everybody was talking about John Douglas. 28 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:14,240 Both of our partners, Mark and your example, Pamela in mine urged us 29 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:21,400 to spend the extra money type budgets notwithstanding, and go to hear John Douglas 30 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:27,520 at the special ticketed event that evening because we were not able to hear John 31 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:34,199 Douglas speak with Chris Hansen. So our respective partners urged us to find the 32 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:37,000 money, and as a matter of fact, Pamela even said, you know 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,039 something, I'll give you an early birthday present. I'll give you a ticket 34 00:02:40,319 --> 00:02:45,639 to see John Douglas. I know how important this is to you. I 35 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:49,879 was so glad that we ended up doing that because the John Douglas thing, 36 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,919 speaking of rock stars. Man Man, he is in his late seventies, 37 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:02,159 but he's a legend in terms of his world as the person that helped establish 38 00:03:02,199 --> 00:03:08,719 the BAU, the Behavioral Analysis Unit at FBI Quantico, and helped develop the 39 00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:15,439 science of profiling, although he's very quick to credit all of the other team 40 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,560 members that he worked with, including a number of other very well known criminologists. 41 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,560 I was so glad we ended up doing it, though, because what 42 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:30,400 a privilege to get a chance to meet him, have a photograph taken with 43 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:35,199 him, chat with him a bit, and then hear him present. He 44 00:03:35,439 --> 00:03:42,879 is so phenomenal as a presenter. The cases that he described, including photographs 45 00:03:42,879 --> 00:03:46,520 some of which were a little hard to look at. Ooh yeah, because 46 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:52,919 he was talking about a lot of serial killer cases and very disturbing cases involving 47 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:59,199 primarily women and children. He did something which I thought was very thoughtful, 48 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:02,240 which is they did tell us in advance that if you're triggered by this kind 49 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:06,080 of content, you do not want to attend this event because he's telling you 50 00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:12,840 these stories about very disturbing cases and interviewing some of the worst serial killers. 51 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:15,800 But one of the things he would do is show you the photograph and then 52 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,680 he would click off the photograph, which is good because sometimes you'd be talking 53 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:25,480 about a particular case for five or ten minutes, what the circumstances were, 54 00:04:25,519 --> 00:04:30,040 and then later interviewing the offenders, putting the whole thing together, helping solve 55 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,040 the case. What he would do is he would show you the photograph to 56 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,600 set the scene, and then he would click off the photograph and it would 57 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,920 go back to him up on a big screen. We were like in the 58 00:04:41,959 --> 00:04:44,759 second or third row. Yeah, we were in the third row. We 59 00:04:45,199 --> 00:04:49,519 had VIP privilege because we had paid, we paid a probably blosphemous amount of 60 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,040 money for the privilege to go to the cocktail hour ahead of time and then 61 00:04:55,199 --> 00:04:58,079 VIP seating. So yeah, we were in the third row, right, 62 00:04:58,199 --> 00:05:00,879 and so yeah, I mean we were up close. Keep in mind to 63 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:03,800 for anybody who needs a little bit of a scale of this thing. I 64 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:08,680 heard the next day there were thirteen hundred people in that ballroom. It was. 65 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:14,120 It was insane. The line. Luckily, with our VIP risk bands, 66 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,319 we did not have to wait in the massive line that everyone else did 67 00:05:16,319 --> 00:05:19,800 because we had paid for the privilege of being within the first three rows. 68 00:05:20,399 --> 00:05:26,759 But the line to get into Douglas was unbelievable. I've never seen a line 69 00:05:26,759 --> 00:05:29,920 that long before. I guess maybe if I went to popular concerts or something, 70 00:05:29,959 --> 00:05:31,720 I would see it. Yeah, it was like going to a big 71 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,560 rock concert. Yeah, then it was. It was. And I would 72 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,439 say that out of all the cool souvenirs that we got over the weekend, 73 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:44,480 my very favorite souvenir was from the John Douglas Cocktail Hour. They limited the 74 00:05:44,519 --> 00:05:49,319 cocktail Hour to one hundred and fifty people and every person received a challenge coin 75 00:05:49,720 --> 00:06:00,680 which had the FBI logo on the back and a John Douglas Mine Hunter logo 76 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,079 on the front. And I am holding my coin right now, will this 77 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,000 is like, I actually may need to put this in the fireproof safe so 78 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,439 that I know that it's always safe. Like honestly, I'm this is my 79 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,360 first challenge coin, and I cherish it. This is amazing, Like it's 80 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:23,800 literally set on my bedside table since we came back from Crime God was really 81 00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:29,000 just an amazing presentation, And you're right, he was very tactful about the 82 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,480 way that he handled the crime scene photos and it did say, like you 83 00:06:31,519 --> 00:06:35,480 pointed out, well ahead of time. They gave content warnings and they said 84 00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:41,639 graphic crime scene photos. And even so they blurred and blacked out some of 85 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,319 it which needed to happen, it was still very upsetting, and there was 86 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,839 actually one I think was the very first one that he showed us. I 87 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,879 actually I had to look away after about ten seconds. I just couldn't handle 88 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,160 it. And there was me too. There were a couple of spots where 89 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,879 they were really difficult to look at. But I also think he wants you 90 00:07:01,959 --> 00:07:08,839 to know what they were up against, the kind of criminals they were investigating, 91 00:07:08,959 --> 00:07:12,759 the kind of cases they were trying to crack, and just the level 92 00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:16,560 of depravity was it was shocking. There were one or two times where you 93 00:07:16,639 --> 00:07:21,319 turned to me and you were like, oh yeah, it's so bad for 94 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,199 these people. And like I said, a lot of I don't think we 95 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,480 saw a lot of pictures of children, but there were references to killers who 96 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:34,800 had preyed on children. But even the pictures of the adults man were really 97 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:39,879 hard to look at. You and I are no stranger to crime scene photos. 98 00:07:40,279 --> 00:07:42,879 It is, but it is not a part of our everyday life. 99 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,439 We have seen our share of them, but it's not a part of our 100 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,759 everyday life. And I do the fact that at the very beginning, when 101 00:07:49,959 --> 00:07:55,680 John was talking about the early part of his career, he made a point 102 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,720 of mentioning that in order to do what he does, you have to at 103 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,519 times have a sense of humor, even if it's a black sense of humor. 104 00:08:03,639 --> 00:08:07,560 Yeah, you have to be irreverent at times, and you have to 105 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:13,680 just be able to take yourself away from the worst of it, the depravity 106 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:18,079 of it, like you said. And so I was amused and amazed and 107 00:08:18,199 --> 00:08:20,439 actually a little like, dude, you're such a badass. The fact that 108 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,399 he is so funny and very irreverent and he is not willing to take himself 109 00:08:26,439 --> 00:08:30,800 too seriously for all that he is just this total badass. He had a 110 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:33,759 wonderful sense of humor he did, and he was telling funny stories left and 111 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,960 right, and it's I think he's right. You have to have something to 112 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,200 get you through, and if that's a gallows sense of humor, then so 113 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:46,600 be it. If that gets you through that stack of nasty crime scene photos 114 00:08:46,639 --> 00:08:52,120 and saying that, I want to be clear here, he's never ever making 115 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:56,879 fun or light of the victims. Oh no, not ever ever. It's 116 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:03,879 of the team and interactions with the team and even some interactions with the serial 117 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,440 killers that they interviewed and analyzed because they were trying to figure out this idea 118 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,200 of serial killers. They are the team that are credited even with coming up 119 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:18,960 with the expression serial killer, trying to figure out what is it about these 120 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:24,639 people that makes them the monsters that they are. Those moments of levity I 121 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:31,919 think were pivotal. It sounded like the team was very close. He mentioned 122 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:37,320 a lot of them by name, but he indicated that dark humor was necessary 123 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:43,759 just to keep yourself from just completely losing it studying what these people had done. 124 00:09:43,639 --> 00:09:48,279 His talk ran long, and it was so funny because Nick from True 125 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:52,600 Crime Garage came out at one point to try to close out the session, 126 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,519 and everybody protested and they were not having it. He's going to keep going, 127 00:09:58,159 --> 00:10:01,840 so he went on, po going on till five am. He went 128 00:10:01,879 --> 00:10:05,039 on for another fifteen minutes, and then poor Nick came out on stage and 129 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,679 he goes They sent me back out again. He and Nick was acting as 130 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:13,639 the MC, and of course he's one of the biggest John Douglas fans out 131 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,480 there, and I think he came out once and then the Douglas wasn't having 132 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,879 it, and Nick went away. But then he came back because clearly the 133 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,840 producers were like, it's eleven o'clock at night. We gotta wrap this. 134 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,679 You gotta wrap it up. Man. It was very funny though, but 135 00:10:31,759 --> 00:10:35,399 he because his talk went over, he did not have time for audience questions. 136 00:10:35,399 --> 00:10:41,320 But there was one that Nick said they had determined backstage was going to 137 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,799 be the best one to ask him, and I liked this, I know 138 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:52,279 you was the question again. The question was who was the most evil or 139 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:58,720 depraved person that you had ever interviewed? And his answer was Bittaker, who 140 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:05,639 was one of the Toolbox Killers from California, who, in addition to raping 141 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,600 and murdering their victims, they also they tortured, raped, and murdered their 142 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:15,960 victims, and they recorded the audio of it. And John was sharing that 143 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,120 for new recruits to the BAU or the Behavioral Science Unit back then BAU now, 144 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:28,120 they would play the tape of those torture sessions, essentially to make sure 145 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,679 that new recruits could cut it. And so he shared the story about Scott 146 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,840 Glenn, who played Jack Crawford in Silence of the Lambs, the character who 147 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:43,200 was based on John Douglas. He brought Scott Glenn into the BAU and he 148 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:48,159 played the tape for Scott Glenn, and Scott Glenn could only listen to about 149 00:11:48,519 --> 00:11:52,559 thirty seconds of it maybe, which I think is probably all anybody could manage. 150 00:11:52,879 --> 00:11:54,440 And he did talk about the fact that he said, if there was 151 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,360 one person that I could pull the switch on, it would have been on 152 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:03,399 him. He did die in prison, unfortunately before he was ever executed. 153 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:09,120 I mean was surprised when he indicated he'd be willing to flip the switch on 154 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:15,519 the electric chair on a number of these people. But remember he's met these 155 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:20,600 people. He spent hours sitting across the table from them, interviewing them, 156 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:26,159 not for any personal enjoyment. They were really trying to figure out what makes 157 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:31,639 these people tick and how can we prevent this kind of thing from happening again 158 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,559 and again. The I was telling a friend of mine who had not been 159 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,960 able to come to Crime con who was a big John Douglas fan, about 160 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,559 the session, and he was very interested in John's answer to the question who 161 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,879 is it that you think is the worst person that you've ever interviewed? And 162 00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:52,320 when I said he answered Bittaker, he was like, oh my gosh, 163 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,600 yeah, And he actually asked me, he said, have you seen that. 164 00:12:54,799 --> 00:13:01,799 NBC News a couple of years ago released some archival news from the day 165 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,960 in the courtroom when Bittaker was on trial, And I said, no, 166 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,679 what footage is that? And he said, it's just cutaway footage of the 167 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:16,559 courtroom doors. And as people are listening to the tapes that were put into 168 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:24,240 evidence against Bitacker, you've got people fleeing out of the courtroom doors because they 169 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:28,559 can't handle listening to the audio of it. And every time that the door 170 00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:33,559 opens, you can hear the audio from that tape echoing through the courtroom and 171 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,399 out into the hallway. It's just news footage of all of these people rushing 172 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:45,480 out of the courtroom, covering their ears, just running to get away from 173 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,240 it. The audio is chilling. It's absolutely chilling. And that's one of 174 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,759 those instances where I was looking at that and I thought, my God, 175 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:58,159 to be a juror for a case like that, or a duror for any 176 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,000 major case that, I can't imagine the toll that takes on someone to be 177 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:09,279 a juror and a trial against someone like Bittaker or any other awful, heinous 178 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:16,120 to pray serial killer. I'm not sure whether Bittaker and Norris were tried at 179 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,320 the same time or separate, because Norris flipped on Bittaker, Oh got it. 180 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,000 I wasn't sure about that because it seemed to me that they were tried 181 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,759 separately. I can't imagine. This is the kind of thing. I feel 182 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:31,519 this way, even about the crime scene photos and the Colonial Parkway murders. 183 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,279 You can't unhear this stuff, you can't unsee this stuff. And at the 184 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:46,200 same time, the prosecutors have an obligation to develop and present a strong case 185 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:52,519 against these individuals. They have to show evidence which has got to be really 186 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,720 difficult to look at and to listen to. The two of them, Bittaker 187 00:14:56,759 --> 00:15:03,159 and Norris, are just sick and the extreme. One of the questions I 188 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,759 would have asked would have been, you interviewed the worst of the worst. 189 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:13,639 Were you ever tempted to reach across the table and throttle any of these people? 190 00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:20,360 Because man, the stuff they had to talk about. John Douglas talked 191 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:24,240 about buddying up is not exactly what I mean, but he had to try 192 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:30,720 to develop a rapport with these people to get them to talk about these cases. 193 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,960 Now, in some of these examples, they're actually talking to people who 194 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:41,200 are multiple offenders, but they're also trying to solve cases. Remember there are 195 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,639 sometimes kidnappings mixed in here, and there's always the potential that victims may still 196 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:52,720 be alive or where the victims remains located, which is obviously incredibly important as 197 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:58,240 we know in the Colonial Parkray murders. These sorts of things required him to 198 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,919 spend hours with these guys and chum it up with them on some level. 199 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,080 And yeah, it was just chilling listening to him talk about sitting there for 200 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:15,159 hours. They did all sorts of unusual things too, Like they tended to 201 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:22,840 interview these suspects in the afternoon or evening. They tended to set these rooms 202 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:26,679 up so they were very dramatically lit. They wanted to create these kind of 203 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,840 moody atmospherics, and I think all of that was designed to add to a 204 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:37,720 comfort level for these offenders, to get them to talk very interesting, insightful 205 00:16:37,919 --> 00:16:41,440 stuff. I'm thrilled that we got to see his session. We did get 206 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,639 to meet him ahead of time in the green room, yeah, before we 207 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:49,039 went out on stage, And so I did manage to have one of my 208 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,279 bucket list items checked off. I brought a k I'm such a doric I 209 00:16:53,320 --> 00:17:00,159 truly am. I brought a copy of the Crime Classification Manual, which he 210 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,960 and Anne Burgess, Robert Wrestler, and a couple of other people wrote together. 211 00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:07,519 And I have a second edition copy. It sound like it's fifth edition 212 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,400 or something like that. And I brought it because I wanted him and doctor 213 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,319 Ann to sign it. I'd say. I pulled up the copy of Mine 214 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,480 Hunter that his co author, Mark Olshaker, who's a friend of mine, 215 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:19,759 had signed for me already, and I brought it over to him and I 216 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:22,319 said, can you sign so that now I have both you and Mark? 217 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,039 And he was like, oh yeah, sure, and then I brought him 218 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:30,119 the Crime Classification Manual to sign and he was like, you're really into criminology? 219 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,640 How many tell I could tell he was impressed. It wasn't like just 220 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:41,119 another copy of the millions sold of mind Hunter or any of the other books 221 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,119 that he and Mark have written. I could tell he was surprised when you 222 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,799 pulled it out and it's a big, fat book it is, and it's 223 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,200 it's exceedingly well thumbed because I go through and read things through it, which 224 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:56,119 I mean it was. I was so psyched. And then I was able, 225 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,559 of course by the very end, to get doctor Anne to sign it 226 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:03,759 as well, which was my whole goal is to get both of them to 227 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:06,920 sign it. But he was just the nicest guy. And when I mentioned 228 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,480 to him, I said I'm friends with Mark Olshaker, he was like, 229 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,039 oh, yeah, Mark's mentioned you. And then he's like, you post 230 00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,680 about renting on Facebook all the time, and I was like, oh my 231 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:18,279 god. I knew John Douglas was my friend on Facebook. I knew that, 232 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,839 but I didn't know that he was paying attention. I was like, 233 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,920 oh my god, you know he knew who you were. Mind Hunter's paying 234 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,319 attention to me. So after we had our picture done, I sent that 235 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,480 to Mark, his writing partner, and Mark sent back a couple of pithy 236 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:37,079 remarks. And when we saw John later that night, I said, I 237 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,039 don't need a picture, you took one with me already, but I did 238 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:42,640 want to show you what Mark sent to me. And he was like, 239 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,640 Oh, that's cool. He's just a super nice guy, very chill. 240 00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:52,079 It would be very interested to know what he makes of crime Con now that 241 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,519 he's done it. I'm sure that it's exhausting. They've been trying to get 242 00:18:56,599 --> 00:19:02,559 him for several years and he's all always been on the list, including on 243 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:06,960 ours. Were Yeah, some of the people that take a few minutes at 244 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:11,519 the end of crime Con, they always ask us how we're things. They 245 00:19:11,599 --> 00:19:14,799 really do want to know how they can improve things. And one of the 246 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,119 questions they've asked, both of us and a bunch of other people too, 247 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:22,519 is who would you like to see at crime Con next year? And John 248 00:19:22,559 --> 00:19:27,400 Douglas has always been on the short list. How thrilled did they finally manage 249 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,720 that. I hope they get him again, but you can see what a 250 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,680 massive amount of interest there was from the Crime con attendees. People were really 251 00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:44,920 super excited to meet him to say hello, but mostly we all wanted to 252 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,400 hear what he had to say. And he's such a great storyteller, talking 253 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:56,759 about all of these well known and more obscure cases, what came out of 254 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,480 them, what they learn, how they began to develop the so cents of 255 00:20:00,599 --> 00:20:04,559 profiling, how the team worked together. It was fascinating. I really could 256 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:08,119 have listened to him talk until five o'clock in the morning. Yeah, I 257 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,839 know, he kept joking about that. Yeah, seriously, we could have 258 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:17,079 gone on that long's He was phenomenal. I would say. The other big 259 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:22,519 speaker of the weekend was John Walsh, and that is one of the I 260 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,960 was able to keep my emotions fairly well in check for most of John's other 261 00:20:26,039 --> 00:20:30,079 than those couple of moments of looh, I can't look at these crime scene 262 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:36,559 photos. But I had a really hard time at John Walsh's panel because even 263 00:20:36,599 --> 00:20:41,240 though he's he's absolutely one hundred percent of badass. He's done amazing things with 264 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:48,680 founding the Center for National Missing and Exploited Children neckback. He's helped really make 265 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,119 America's most wanted into what it is today. But of course, the story 266 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:57,039 that everyone wanted to hear was what happened to his son, Adam Walsh. 267 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:03,160 So he spoke with Angeline Hartman, one of the directors at NETMEC. She 268 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,960 was walking him through the story of what happened to his six year old son, 269 00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:11,640 Adam Walsh, who was kidnapped from a shopping mall in Hollywood, Florida, 270 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:17,680 and who was ultimately found de capitated in a canal. He reached a 271 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,920 point in the telling of the story and I see this a lot with people 272 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,319 who were talking about the crimes that have impacted their lives, and I see 273 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,480 this in you two in a certain extent. Bill, when you get started 274 00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:32,839 talking about it, you just roll with it and keep going, like you 275 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,920 have to get the story out all at once. There reached a point where 276 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,000 Angeline was asking him questions, but rather than if she asked him a question 277 00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:42,359 to get him started to tell us the story about what happened to Adam, 278 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,839 And she reached a point where like it was clear she was going to interject, 279 00:21:45,839 --> 00:21:48,559 and he just held up a hand and was like, I got it, 280 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,240 let me go, let me tell it. And so he told it 281 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:56,039 all in one long, sort of five minute monologue about what had happened to 282 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,759 Adam, and he was very you can tell it obviously is very much still 283 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:04,319 a part of him, as it is with everyone who was a member of 284 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,400 the club that nobody wants to join. But I mean, he held it 285 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,599 together really well. I would say that there was only one point that he 286 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,519 had a hard time holding it together on and that was the part that I 287 00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,759 and I'm sure a bunch of other people struggled with. I was sitting there 288 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,480 really full on crying. At one point, he was talking about the fact 289 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:30,720 that he drove to the coroner's office to get Adam's skull back so that he 290 00:22:30,759 --> 00:22:34,000 could bury his son, all of his son, and they wouldn't give him 291 00:22:34,039 --> 00:22:38,960 his skull back because it was evidence in a murder case. Wow, And 292 00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:42,079 he was so upset. He was like, I want to bury my son 293 00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:45,279 and they said, we can't give you back his skull. It's evidence in 294 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:49,160 a case. That was so upsetting for me to hear, and I'm not 295 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,240 sure why it triggered me quite the way that it did. There was a 296 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:59,640 lot of sniffles and tears throughout the room at that point in the presentation, 297 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:07,480 But my gosh, he talk about thriving in spite of major adversity. You're 298 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,359 listening to mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our 299 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:19,160 sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. Before we get back to the 300 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,359 podcast, just wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme effort going 301 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:29,119 on right now. This campaign is designed to help us raise funds to help 302 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:36,119 promote Mind over Murder and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 303 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:38,599 We'd love it if you could support us in any way that you can. 304 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:45,720 Any donation from five dollars to whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and 305 00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:48,440 will be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes and in our 306 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:55,119 social media pages. As always, thanks for your support. Now back to 307 00:23:55,319 --> 00:24:00,839 mindover Murder. This is a guy who basically said not going to let the 308 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,640 worst thing that has ever happened to me break me. I'm going to go 309 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,799 on to do better things with it. He talked about founding the National Center 310 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:14,920 for Missing and Exploited Children. It was his wife's idea and they started it 311 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:21,720 in their garage. They had received some crazy number like forty thousand letters and 312 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,839 cards. His wife wanted to respond to all of them, and that took 313 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:33,920 a very long time. She began to realize this interest in Adam's case and 314 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,720 the support for the Walsh family, that this also presented an opportunity, and 315 00:24:38,759 --> 00:24:42,319 so she said, we have to do something with this. I thought that 316 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:48,119 was very powerful when you think about it from a John Walsh perspective. He's 317 00:24:48,319 --> 00:24:53,000 told the basics of that story any number of times and I think to myself, 318 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:56,440 Man, how does he keep it together. It's got to be really 319 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:03,640 difficult. He does it, and he's warm and engaging and very polished. 320 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,720 He's very passionate. He feels very strongly about going out and capturing bad guys. 321 00:25:08,759 --> 00:25:12,279 We talked about America's most Wanted and now having a sun be part of 322 00:25:12,319 --> 00:25:17,680 the show. He was amazing, he really was. And again, he's 323 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:22,599 one of the biggest I don't know stars is the word that I'm looking for, 324 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,160 but he's one of the most important figures in the true crime world, 325 00:25:27,079 --> 00:25:33,200 and people were extremely excited to meet him and most importantly to hear what he 326 00:25:33,279 --> 00:25:38,200 had to say. He's a very inspiring guy, he really is. I've 327 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,519 met him before several years back. I remember he said to me. The 328 00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:47,279 more I learned about your sister's case, meaning the Colonial Parkway murders, the 329 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:53,119 more it reminds me of Adam's case because of the problems inside the case and 330 00:25:53,359 --> 00:26:00,559 friction between agencies and lack of coordination, and so I don't want to turn 331 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,920 this into bashing of the FBI or any of the other agencies involved. He 332 00:26:04,079 --> 00:26:11,279 talked with me privately about his own frustration and heartbreak with running into exactly the 333 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:17,079 same type of problem that we've run into with the Colonial Parkway murders. I 334 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,519 didn't have a chance to have a one on one conversation with him at Crime 335 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:26,640 Clime because man, much like John Douglas, he was mobbed. Everybody wanted 336 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,960 a piece of John Walsh the one thing that I thought was very interesting, 337 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,880 and he brought this up at the Clue Awards. So he was awarded crime 338 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,039 Fighter of the Year at the Clue Awards this year. And for anybody who's 339 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:41,960 not familiar with the Clue Awards, one of my friends referred to it as 340 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,559 the crime Fighter's prom I said, it's more like crime Fighter's Academy Awards. 341 00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:48,880 But sure, I get what you're talking about, because I sent her photos 342 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,319 and she was like, you dressed up all fancy, look at you. 343 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:56,720 Guys. See, he was awarded crime Fighter of the Year. The recipient 344 00:26:56,759 --> 00:27:00,480 from the previous year gives the award to the person who this year, and 345 00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:07,839 so that the people presenting this year were Gabby Petito's parents and stepparents, the 346 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:12,400 Potito's and the Schmids. They gave a very nice speech, and they welcomed 347 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,000 John Walsh out onto the stage. And one thing that I thought was very 348 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:22,759 interesting was the fact that he said, he said ninety percent, and I 349 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:25,680 assume he knows the figures better than I do, but I haven't had a 350 00:27:25,799 --> 00:27:30,920 chance to fact check this. Ninety percent of all couples who lose a child 351 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:36,519 divorce within the first couple of years because they can't handle the loss. And 352 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:40,200 so he talked about the fact that he really admired the Potito's and the Schmids 353 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:44,000 because they had stuck together, they had stayed together, they'd opened up the 354 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:48,440 Gabby Patito Foundation to try to make sure that Gabby's loss had not been in 355 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:52,240 vain, much like he had done with Nekmech, so that Adam's loss hadn't 356 00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:55,240 been in vain. And he acknowledged the fact that he and his wife reve 357 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,839 have not. They did not separate after Adam. They remain married and they 358 00:27:59,839 --> 00:28:03,680 were a functional family unit. I thought it was very interesting that he mentioned 359 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,559 that statistic, because it did stick out to me that from my understanding, 360 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:12,000 of all the parents in the Colonial Parkway murders cases, all of those parents 361 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,359 stayed together too, right, like your parents stayed together after losing Kathy. 362 00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:19,759 Yeah, they did. I can't think of any of the parents that separated 363 00:28:19,799 --> 00:28:23,440 after that. I'm not sure about that statistic. I'm not here to debate, 364 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,440 yeah, the stat but the people that I know who've lost a loved 365 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,160 one in situations like this, I don't think they've all headed for divorce. 366 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,720 Far from it. I think it was mainly with reference to losing a child. 367 00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:41,039 And I do remember, just anecdotally, after my friend Nikki died when 368 00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:45,119 I was in college, her parents split almost immediately afterward. They just couldn't. 369 00:28:45,559 --> 00:28:48,279 I do, and I do understand it happens, and I think I 370 00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:52,640 have an understanding of why it happened. In my personal experience, which is 371 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,119 limited, I have not found that every couple split up. Now, in 372 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,000 the example of the Potitos in the show, Gabby's folks were already divorced and 373 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,680 they had both remarried. One of the things I thought was extremely impressive, 374 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,599 and I have had a chance to spend some one on one time with them, 375 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:17,359 is that although Gabby's folks were divorced, they and their respective news spouses 376 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,079 have worked together, the four of them, in a way that's really admirable. 377 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,240 They practically finish each other's sentences. They clearly like each other. They 378 00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,839 get along really well. They're very dedicated to having, as you were saying, 379 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:36,839 something worthwhile needs to come out of losing a great kid like Gabby. 380 00:29:37,319 --> 00:29:42,559 They're determined, like John Walsh and so many others, to have something positive 381 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,799 come out of their loss. One of the great things to come out of 382 00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:49,720 crime Con is that it is a very it is very inspiring weekend. It 383 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,839 is very emotional. Obviously, you're seeing things like graphic crime scene photos, 384 00:29:53,880 --> 00:30:00,160 you're hearing just absolutely harrowing tales, but you do get a lot of here 385 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,680 are the ways that we can carry on. Here are the ways that we 386 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,400 move forward. Here are the ways that we do not let trauma beat us 387 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,559 down or ruin us. I really admire that from so many of these people, 388 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:15,559 whether it's investigators or victims' families, who say, this is not the 389 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,039 end of me, This is not the breaking of me. There is more 390 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:22,440 beyond this. There is life beyond this. One of the other groups of 391 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,240 people that we were very privileged to get to hang out with at Crime Con 392 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:33,039 was Aaron and Denise Quinn, who survived in absolutely brutal home invasion in twenty 393 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,839 fifteen. They wrote Victim f along with our friend Nikki Egan, the story 394 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:45,519 about the home invasion and Denise's kidnapping and the subsequent major issues with the Vallejo 395 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:52,119 Police Department that resulted, and Netflix recently made a series about them called American 396 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:56,039 Nightmare. They had a wonderful panel with Nikki Egan that I was happy to 397 00:30:56,079 --> 00:31:00,640 go listen to, and then we got to spend some time with them after 398 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,799 the Clue Awards and they're just the nicest people that you could possibly imagine, 399 00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:11,720 And they too, have turned major tragedy and major trauma into an opportunity to 400 00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:15,279 grow and say, you know what, I am not this horrible thing that 401 00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,440 has happened to me. I am more than that, I am better than 402 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,200 that. That was very inspiring to be able to spend some time with them. 403 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,000 I liked them both quite a bit, and I know we were hoping 404 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,240 to have them on Mind over Murder at some point a couple of weeks ago, 405 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,279 and there were some scheduling issues. We will be having them on a 406 00:31:34,319 --> 00:31:38,519 future episode. I was super impressed with the two of them. I just 407 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:44,039 thought they were amazing. It was really fun getting to know them, and 408 00:31:44,079 --> 00:31:48,960 there are young, vibrant couple who are determined to tell their story. But 409 00:31:49,039 --> 00:31:53,400 I also felt like they were also trying to send a message that life goes 410 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,359 on and that you can recover from this kind of trauma. The two of 411 00:31:57,359 --> 00:32:00,880 them were a lot of fun. Had a really good time talking with them 412 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:06,920 till far into the night. We ended up a whole bunch of us ended 413 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,559 up going out to the bar after Crime Con, which is not normal for 414 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:14,000 either Bill or I. We don't drink, either of us, but we 415 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,839 were perfectly happy to have diet cokes and waters and there and talk and I 416 00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:21,240 think Aaron and I ended up talking about and Nikki. We all ended up 417 00:32:21,279 --> 00:32:23,799 talking about movies of all things. Like Aaron was asking what do I teach 418 00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,640 and I mentioned my movie class and he was like, oh, give me 419 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,440 the rundown, what do you watch? And we talked and talked, and 420 00:32:30,599 --> 00:32:32,599 it's nice to know too that, like, you can go to a thing 421 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,200 like Crime Con and not all of your conversations have to be about crime, 422 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,039 trauma, violence, or anything else. We could sit there and talk about 423 00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:44,000 movies and we debate, debated the merits of m Night Shyamalan and whether or 424 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:47,480 not he is Hitchcock's sort of modern day successor. We talked about Jaws. 425 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,319 Just wonderful stuff and I love that. I love being able to talk to 426 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,720 people and go, hey, we can connect everything's other than crime. Yeah, 427 00:32:55,799 --> 00:33:02,400 that's true. And also different people had books out talking about that experience, 428 00:33:02,519 --> 00:33:06,039 what that was like, This is something that I know you and I 429 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:08,559 would like to do in the future. So it's interesting talking to people about 430 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:15,880 their relationships with their agents, their publishers, how they got their book deals, 431 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:20,599 all that kind of stuff. Those really interesting talking about lots of other 432 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:27,119 stuff that's of interest to us. That wasn't necessarily about shocking true crime or 433 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:34,160 true crime details. It was a just a phenomenal experience. We're not paid 434 00:33:34,279 --> 00:33:38,839 to promote Crime Cone, not by any stretch, but it's such a phenomenal 435 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:45,279 experience if you're interested in true crime, It's definitely something to think about next 436 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:52,839 September in Denver. It's in Aurora, which is outside Denver. As I 437 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,799 was reading today, it's a fairly healthy commute from Aurora to Denver. So 438 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:01,240 apparently we're at I think another gay right, another gaylord. Yeah. Actually, 439 00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:05,920 I'm going to get off of here in book a hotel to make sure 440 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,800 that we're able to get there, because I do want to stay on property. 441 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,119 I don't know if we're under a giant bubble this time like we were 442 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,840 less time. Oh it's beautiful. I looked up pictures of the resort. 443 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,840 It's absolutely stunning. And it's got a great, big, wide lawn with 444 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,719 lots of lawn games and chairs. And I've never actually seen the Rocky Mountain. 445 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,199 The Blue Ridge is the closest mountain range that we have, and they 446 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,079 are tiny because they're so old. I have yet to see really big, 447 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,840 tall mountains like the Rockies. My boyfriend grew up in la but he went 448 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,719 to school in Oregon, and so he spent a lot of time in his 449 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:43,440 youth backpacking and things like that, and I have never seen anything related to 450 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,840 mountains that size. I'm really looking forward to going just to see real mountains 451 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:51,800 as opposed to the Blue Ridge, which are real, but like I said, 452 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,280 they're very small because they're very old. The Rocky Mountains are pretty spectacular, 453 00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,400 and Colorado is a beautiful place. So I'm very much looking for to 454 00:35:00,519 --> 00:35:04,360 it and I'm sure it's going to be a fascinating trip. And if they 455 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:08,880 do the kind of job they did at Crime Con Nashville next year in Denver, 456 00:35:09,079 --> 00:35:13,920 it'll be completely off the charts. One thing I wanted to talk about 457 00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:20,199 was social media is so integral to this experience. There were a small number 458 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:27,519 of people but very vocal on social media complaining about crime Con afterward. This 459 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:30,400 is while I was delayed at the airport, so I was starting to catch 460 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,239 up on my social media and reading some of the comments, to the point 461 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,039 where one of the organizers, Kevin balf reached out to me and he wrote 462 00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:42,320 me a note and said, did you have any bad experiences? Did you 463 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,119 and Kristin have a good time? And I wrote him back and I said, 464 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:46,599 we thought it was phenomenal. We thought it was one of the best 465 00:35:46,639 --> 00:35:51,559 crime cons ever. You guys did a great job and he said, Oh, 466 00:35:51,679 --> 00:35:55,639 I'm so glad because he said, I saw you like something where someone 467 00:35:55,639 --> 00:36:00,519 had commented, and I said, Kevin, sometimes I'm just liking something just 468 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:04,840 to remind myself that I've read it. What was strange was there were a 469 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,960 bunch of people that got onto social media and they were complaining about like ridiculous 470 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,840 stuff. First of all, that doesn't have anything to do with the event 471 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,480 organizers, Like they were complaining about water pressure in their showers, Oh, 472 00:36:17,519 --> 00:36:22,079 come on. And the fact that the hotel was extremely large, which we 473 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,800 all knew, and that there was a lot of walking around, which again 474 00:36:25,599 --> 00:36:30,079 welcome to Crime Con. It's a very large event with sixty five hundred people 475 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,559 and thousands of people staying in hotel rooms, and you can only do that 476 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,880 at a place that is very large. As a result, there's a fair 477 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:45,000 amount of hiking around. When people ask me what advice would I give a 478 00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:49,239 first time Crime con visitor, I would say, really comfortable walking shoes, 479 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,159 ring a sweater or a sweatshirt because the ballrooms tend to be cold, and 480 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:59,840 bring snacks because you're going and going, and unless you want to skip out 481 00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,559 on a panel or something like that, bring something to eat because it can 482 00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:07,000 take a while to go and grab lunch or whatever. I was kind of 483 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:13,159 shocked by the ridiculous minutia that people were complaining about, and they were saying 484 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,800 it was such a long walk and it was so busy, and the lines 485 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,159 were so long, and it's have you never been to a major event before? 486 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:27,719 These people are putting on multiple panel discussions in different ballrooms, with meet 487 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:34,159 and greets and photo opportunities and on. They're trying to present multiple events back 488 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,760 to back, and I thought they did a great job. The volunteers that 489 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,719 were working there, you know you see them in the crime concerts, were 490 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,039 extremely helpful because I often found myself turned around, like where's this ballroom? 491 00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:49,159 Or how do we get to the green room? All that kind of stuff, 492 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,840 And everybody was unbelievably friendly and helpful and excited to be there. I 493 00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:00,599 thought the grousing after the fact was ridiculous. I've noticed over the last few 494 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:05,800 days now that I've been home, the pendulum has swung back to I think 495 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,960 a more balanced perspective, yes, which is people saying I had a phenomenal 496 00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:15,559 time. I saw these amazing people. I listened, I learned, I 497 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:21,719 was inspired by their stories, so I felt like the balance swung back in 498 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,480 a more positive direction. But I was shocked at the stuff I was reading 499 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,760 at at the airport, people like I couldn't believe how far it was, 500 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,039 and it's like, yeah, it's yeah, welcome, welcome to Crime cod 501 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:39,199 Like I said in our previous episode, twenty two miles of walking on the 502 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:45,000 fitbit over three days. It was unbelievable and it's so worth it. Any 503 00:38:45,159 --> 00:38:49,800 large scale event that I've ever been to, I've been to a lot of 504 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,519 conferences and stuff outside the true crime space, it always involves very large facilities 505 00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:59,639 because if you bring thousands of people together, where else are you going to 506 00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:01,719 put them? You can't just put them up at Motel six. It's just 507 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,920 not going to work. It has to be at a larger facility with very 508 00:39:07,079 --> 00:39:13,480 large production facilities because you're trying to present simultaneous events. And I thought that 509 00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:19,480 Kevin Bealf and his team did an amazing job. He helped us out and 510 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,039 at several points when we had questions or concerns, and I think to myself, 511 00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:30,199 how many hundred, if not thousand people hit that staff with questions or 512 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,039 problems or whatever, and they resolved things as quickly as they could. I 513 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:37,480 thought they did a great job, and they have at every crime con I've 514 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,199 attended, which I think is I lost count? I think it's six or 515 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,559 seven? Yeah, I think five? About five for me, No, 516 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,320 six for me, seven for you? I think yeah at this point, 517 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:51,159 and i'ming forward to the next one. Yeah. Same. I will say 518 00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:53,400 that we did have the dubious distinction, and this is not crime CON's fault 519 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,519 at all, of being I'm sure that there are other things that happened to 520 00:39:58,559 --> 00:40:00,280 other people at crime Con. We may we just haven't heard about them. 521 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,920 We are probably one of the group of creators that ended up having a crime 522 00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:09,840 committed against us at crime Con. That's right. I remember tell us as 523 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,360 part of a partnership that we've developed with my wonderful friend Michelle, who runs 524 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,320 a great little store called The Glittered Squirrel, which she is quick to point 525 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,119 out on her website is not a strip club. She makes wonderful. She 526 00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:29,159 calls it glassware with flair drinkwear with flair rather, and it is just saucy, 527 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:35,039 attitudinous, funny tumblers, glass beer cans with things emblazoned on them. 528 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:39,320 And she had a host of six of them, six samples that she wanted 529 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,639 us to take to Crime con in order to see if these would be a 530 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,760 hit with the true crime audience. So we took six of her samples, 531 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:53,679 along with two really wonderful tumblers that she created that said partners in Crime with 532 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,000 bloody handprints on them and a QR code, and we set them up on 533 00:40:58,039 --> 00:41:01,599 our table. We're ready to go to our speaking engagement, and we'd had 534 00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:06,920 our table set up and people were taking a look at everything, and because 535 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,280 things were going so well, I didn't want to I didn't want to break 536 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,480 down the whole entire booth while we were out and going to speak. So 537 00:41:14,519 --> 00:41:16,599 I asked the people on either side of us, can you guys just keep 538 00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:19,800 an eye on our booth while we're gone. We'll be gone about an hour, 539 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,400 and just make sure nobody swipes her stuff. They absolutely both agreed, 540 00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:25,760 Yes, we will one hundred percent take a look at this. But it 541 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,280 got busy, as things tend to do, and when we came back from 542 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:36,519 speaking, three of those glass tumblers were gone off the table. When I 543 00:41:36,559 --> 00:41:42,679 asked around, several people up and down Creator's row on our end indicated that 544 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:49,519 there was a woman with gray, slightly frizzy hair in a walker with a 545 00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:53,280 very large black bag, and she was going through and sweeping stuff off of 546 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:58,039 the table and into her bag, assuming that all of them were freebies, 547 00:41:58,159 --> 00:42:01,280 even though all of these things were clear early marked with price tags. So 548 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,719 we ended up losing sixty dollars worth of merchandise. Showed this woman, and 549 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,679 I will give the crime con staff a ton of credit. As soon as 550 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,400 I went up to someone and said, hey, we've had a problem over 551 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,079 at our boost. Someone stole stuff from us, they jumped on it and 552 00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:20,280 were like, we will help. Let me call the resort police, let 553 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:22,840 me see if we have video all sorts of stuff, and so they jumped 554 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,280 right on it. They were very helpful. And this was volunteers, by 555 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,960 the way, This was volunteers who were staffing it. One of the volunteers 556 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,920 came over and she was like, let me help you make some signs that 557 00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:37,320 say these are not freebies, just in case it wasn't obvious we were doing 558 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:42,360 everything. It was pretty obvious that they were not freebies obviously, but still 559 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,519 I'll shoot. Everybody was very good about it. Unfortunately, I did get 560 00:42:45,559 --> 00:42:50,119 a call from the resort police on my way back home, and they said, 561 00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:52,559 hey, we looked at the video. There's really nothing that we can 562 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:57,000 see that's going to identify this person other than the description that you gave. 563 00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:00,800 There is no way to get back your merchandise. Imbursh you for that, 564 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:02,599 and I figured that's okay. We weren't going to get reimbursed for it. 565 00:43:02,599 --> 00:43:06,480 We weren't going to be able to get the merchandise back. It still ticked 566 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,360 me off because it should have been really obvious that those were not freebies. 567 00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:15,920 But lesson learned for next time. G littered squirrels. Cool stuff attracted lots 568 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:20,440 of attention, not all of it from thieves. Yes, people did ultimately 569 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,480 buy our floor models, so I did not have to take those home with 570 00:43:22,599 --> 00:43:25,400 me. It was one less thing to carry back, right. And one 571 00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:30,760 extremely good hearted person when she heard, because I'd posted on a crime con 572 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,159 group, hey somebody stole our stuff. Can you see if you see these 573 00:43:34,199 --> 00:43:37,079 around make a citizen's arrest or something kidding? One woman came over and she 574 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:39,719 said, oh my gosh, I read that you had stuff taken from you. 575 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,000 I'm so sorry, and I said you, thank you. I appreciate 576 00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:45,920 it. And she actually she just handed me a twenty dollars bill and said, 577 00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,559 here, this is to make up for it. I said, you 578 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,559 do not have to do that, and she goes, no, it's the 579 00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:52,599 donation. She goes, I'm really sorry your stuff got stolen. That's not 580 00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:55,760 cool. There was a lot of outrage. I turned it into a joke. 581 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,440 I was still pretty pissed about it, and I still am. But 582 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,239 hey, we do have I would say the singular distinction of having a crime 583 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:08,679 committed at crime Fortunately it wasn't a violent crime. Yeah, sariously, just 584 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,519 some random person. And I guess she was doing this to everybody. She 585 00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:16,559 was taking more than her fair share of everything off of people's tables, and 586 00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:20,440 that sucks. Like, if you're listening to this screw, you don't do 587 00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:25,320 that to people. It's not cool. Agreed, Petty Crime's notwithstanding a phenomenal 588 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,960 experience, we hope to see you at crime Con next year in beautiful Denver. 589 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:38,079 I hope our enthusiasm for all that we saw and experienced at crime Con. 590 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,519 Let you know what a great experience it was, I think for us 591 00:44:43,639 --> 00:44:49,400 in six five hundred of our favorite true crime fans agreed, and before we 592 00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:53,239 close. A very heartfelt thank you to everyone who contributed to our go fundmate 593 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,800 to help us with our expenses. This is not a cheap event and we 594 00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,800 pay for all of it out of so for everybody who contributed. That helps 595 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,960 us with our printing costs, That helps us with travel, It helps with 596 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:08,880 gas, it helps with everything. So thank you so much to everybody who 597 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,079 was willing to help us out. We really appreciate you more than we can 598 00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:15,760 tell you. That is going to do it for this episode of mind Over 599 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:20,400 Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 600 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:35,480 Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our 601 00:45:35,519 --> 00:45:39,840 executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela 602 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:45,400 Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed 603 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:51,519 in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, 604 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,800 or Instagram. You can also follow our page in the Colonial Parkway Murders 605 00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,239 on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill 606 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,039 Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.