WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:04.679 In progress excellent. Hello everybody, welcome back to Desk to Dorks. It's 2 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:08.640 fairy poor game designing cration podcast, Kylet. I am the Dork to Riley's 3 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:12.919 desk, and if you're listening slash watching to this episode, Riley is stepping 4 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:16.600 away for a little bit um to take some much needed time off and much 5 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.839 need to break. So I am joined by who I'm hoping will be Desk 6 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:23.920 to Dork's brand new interim co host, mister Graham gaants, Graham gets everybody 7 00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:30.920 bay, it's me. We're gonna we're gonna shape this by you. And 8 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:35.640 as usual, Graham's cue pod drops have continued to be the lifeblood that has 9 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:38.359 kept us running. And you you have a really good on you like you 10 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:41.640 sold me on this, like entirely on this episode. So Graham, why 11 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:44.640 don't you explain to the lovely folks at home what we're gonna be doing this 12 00:00:44.719 --> 00:00:48.880 afternoon. Yeah, so so, chasing your dreams, tracing your passions, 13 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:50.880 it's the whole reason why we're here. We love games, we love to 14 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:55.280 sign, but like there's other things that have come up as becoming people, 15 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:59.759 and something that you've talked about is your love and your passion is You're a 16 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:03.359 big goal history nerd, and I love history, A love stories, I 17 00:01:03.480 --> 00:01:08.840 love weird interactions. So because so many you know, theme is one thing, 18 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:15.439 but finding it inspiration, letting that spiral you out means that finding the 19 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.560 it's it's a path of least resistance problem. What gets you PUMPLI gets that 20 00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:25.400 energy beginning a project, working through it, finishing it, shipping it. 21 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:30.879 That so much works so much energy, and it is unbelievably easy to burn 22 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.480 out in the middle. So how do you find that lift to go through 23 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:38.480 it? Do something that like you're not going to be tired of? And 24 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:42.879 so in between the me trying to find puns for titles, I'm like, 25 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:49.239 well, what is the most fire that I could light under? Kyle from 26 00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.560 the Odd oh Man Empire. That's what we're here for. We're here for 27 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.319 me to throw questions at you. You are unprepared. You have not seen 28 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:04.439 the question before. Um and uh. Your job will be to either answer 29 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:09.039 me a b uh like a gentb and sidestep what I've said and talk about 30 00:02:09.039 --> 00:02:14.120 you what you want to talk instead, because it'll be less heinous than whatever 31 00:02:14.159 --> 00:02:16.240 I'm suggesting. And then finally we use that as a kind of a jumping 32 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:20.759 board to be inspired by talking about like, oh, that makes me think 33 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.520 of this. It makes me think of this until we create ideas or the 34 00:02:24.520 --> 00:02:28.639 the the bobble of an idea that will be like oh, man, I 35 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:34.360 think I could finish that all the way to the end and obligatory because Graham 36 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:37.120 inspired this. If you have not had a chance to take a look at 37 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:40.719 it yet, um our Medieval Helmets tier list is on YouTube right now. 38 00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:49.520 I was like, yes, Tama shown to Amy. Our editor sent me 39 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.479 a list of all of the medieval helmets, and I was like, oh, 40 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:55.439 I'm I'm I'm putting it down, making this into a deer list. 41 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.680 And we did well as as we transition into a a a comfortable new tier 42 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:07.400 lest era. You know this is this is the list of tier lists. 43 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.000 Riley is the desk. He's the desk. His desk is to make sure 44 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:17.159 there is brand integrity. His words, not mine brand integrity. And honestly, 45 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.919 tier lists is the future. So if Kyle Lott, if you're not 46 00:03:22.039 --> 00:03:24.039 making more tier lists, like you know, we're gonna get those clicks. 47 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:30.400 You're gotta get that that traffick in. We got people one I'm going hot. 48 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.759 Take is a culture that I like because it's not about quality or not 49 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:37.479 quality. People are just like you have an opinion and then yeah, this 50 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.319 is funny. Five some selves for having an opinion, Like it's great. 51 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:45.120 It's like Diner Vicken Morty. It's like the scene where they're like all the 52 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:49.439 Jerry's are shaking hands each other, like we did it. But yeah, 53 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:53.000 Jerry Daycare is pretty good. Jerry Daycare was was a surprisingly solid episode for 54 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:57.759 a show that I feel like I'm out growing more and more. But oh 55 00:03:57.840 --> 00:03:59.960 no, no, it's not. It's it's very much. You can't go 56 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:02.960 home again. But in this case, the last season has been truly abysmal. 57 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:08.599 H and I'm not going back. Oh see, And I'm like those 58 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:10.919 two or three season behind on Rick and we all right, we're getting ahead 59 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.960 of ourselves. Let's let's do you know, this is the tearless stage, 60 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.319 but let's let's start with this. I'm excited, Gram, what do you 61 00:04:15.399 --> 00:04:20.079 got for me? Historically? I'm ready. Well, I think when we 62 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:24.759 think history, when we think what we're inspired by, I'm just gonna go 63 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:28.000 the obvious, the thing that we all have in our mind. We want 64 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:30.120 you as a as an expert, as the expert in the room. We're 65 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.079 here to dump the dork. We're going to figure out what you know and 66 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:38.879 how you can speak about it. I mean cliches or cliches for a reason. 67 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:44.279 Uh, tell me everything that you might be interested in when it comes 68 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.519 to Roman toilets. I know that the Romans have all these vast, you 69 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:53.120 know, influences on modern cultural law, philosophy, architecture. But it's the 70 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.879 toilets that I know is a secret. What is an obsession of yours? 71 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:03.040 So this is the deal? What's the deal with toilets? So this is 72 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:05.839 something that I think sparked the episode when you and I were talking about it, 73 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:11.160 But it blows my mind. For all of their civic innovations, the 74 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:15.360 Romans could not figure out how to make a toilet that wasn't utterly terrifying m 75 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.759 And we know this, we legit know this because there is graffiti and in 76 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:26.240 some case actual carved base reliefs on the walls of Roman public toilets. And 77 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:31.000 these are not instructions or like simple graffiti. These are prayers asking the Roman 78 00:05:31.079 --> 00:05:36.720 gods to allow this trip to the toilets to be uneventful. Um, so 79 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:42.800 we have firsthand accounts of their being stinging insects and other things that would live 80 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:47.720 in Roman privies, which would make it horribly, horribly dangerous in some cases 81 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:54.519 to use them. Rome had multiple outbreaks of different venereal diseases, and sure 82 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:58.920 enough, toilets often became because there were public toilets, those often became epicenters 83 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:03.480 for those nereal diseases. To say nothing about the run of the mill bacteria 84 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:08.439 and basic germs that you would find, like if you have ever been like 85 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.680 I imagine, like imagine a porta potti at Coachella and then multiply it by 86 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.639 like six hundred. That's what the Romans were dealing with on a on a 87 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:21.279 daily basis. Now, this obviously wouldn't be the case everywhere in the Roman 88 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:25.759 world, right like depending on where you go and what you do, are 89 00:06:25.879 --> 00:06:28.720 like smaller towns might have had better you know, might might have had better 90 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:33.360 sanitation. But the toilets in Rome were truly one of the most abysmal places 91 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:38.279 to be in antiquity. And I think, I just I think about that 92 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:42.199 off like they could figure out how to conquer half of the known planet. 93 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:46.720 But these guys couldn't figure out how to make an actual functioning privy and I 94 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:53.639 it's just so funny to me, it like it's it's genuinely hysterical. So 95 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:58.279 we had talked about I was like, how fun would it be to make 96 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.639 like a push your luck game, like how long you can stay on the 97 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:06.079 Roman toilet? Uh? Yeah, just one of those little things that like 98 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:12.079 you wouldn't think about being truly truly horrendous, but would be truly truly horrendous. 99 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:17.439 I think so Roman toilets, everybody the most toilets the most, push 100 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:20.920 your luck, Push your luck, I think has a I mean you're talking 101 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:26.639 about toilets and pushing it. Certainly it gives a certain a certain you know 102 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.160 sense in terms of theme. Um. But honestly, the other inspiration that 103 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:36.439 gives me is the old fungen magons idea. So you have your like set 104 00:07:38.279 --> 00:07:43.439 settings that are like okay, caves um, I think forrests just like a 105 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:49.120 little less though sewer yea sewer is such a huge part of fungen magons uh 106 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:54.879 lore. So the idea that like there's stuff down there and it's gonna come 107 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:58.160 get you. You're like, that's Roman, and I'm like is it though? 108 00:07:58.519 --> 00:08:01.240 That reminds me of being a dwarf and being like, I'm gonna leap 109 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:05.879 down this this uh sister to Adventure in the Ground. Let's see how it 110 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:09.920 goes. But the romans that it did not go very well. Um again, 111 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:15.519 it's just one of those little weird, like historical tidbits that I'm like, 112 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.079 and I don't often wonder sometimes if like that is the inspiration for like 113 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:24.160 the fantasy trope of like, it's dangerous in the sewers, can't go in 114 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:28.759 the sewers. That's real scary. Like I often wonder if that's where that 115 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.480 comes from, Like if some D and D guy was like, you know 116 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:35.279 what like these sewers man, Like, I don't know. I don't know 117 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.360 if Gary Gygax was reading the primary sources or not, but I mean, 118 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:43.159 I think it's hysterical. I think it's hysterical. Poor guys. Yeah, 119 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.639 when you're when you're building a setting, you the the urban environments are always 120 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:52.720 very there. They create content in it of themselves. And so if if 121 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.879 you start asking these basic historical questions, as you know, the great crossover 122 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:01.200 of a history nerd and a role playing nerd is is pretty close to a 123 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:05.000 circle on that then diagram. Everybody wants to start asking these like boring slash 124 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:11.799 interesting questions about infrastructure, because Okay, you have a lot of people in 125 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:13.960 one space. You know you need running water. Okay, how does the 126 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.200 functioning sewer work? And you're like, well, there's definitely gonna be some 127 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.679 the probable live urn that lives down there, right, you know it often 128 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.000 is, And I actually think that is probably one of the best sources, 129 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.320 Like you said it yourself, like urban settings, I think lend themselves more 130 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:35.879 to adventure, and it's adventure your party members aren't necessarily sick of. Like 131 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.039 for me when I'm running campaigns, whether it's a fungen Maggins or anything else. 132 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:46.559 Truthfully, I'm trying to avoid cliches. I'm trying to avoid the tropes 133 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.360 that my party my players have seen a thousand times over. And one of 134 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:56.240 the things that like I consistently find myself coming back to is city planning winds 135 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.159 up being kind of a big deal when you're I had to planned adventures like 136 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.000 you don't think about it, but like Roman aqueducts, another great example would 137 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:13.080 have been massive projects that one hundred percent were easily sabotage, like easily sabotaged. 138 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:16.360 Right, how many guards, how many individuals, how many people were 139 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.639 working on that one work of civic architecture, and what does that look like 140 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:24.879 for your party? Right? One of the things that we talked about in 141 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.679 our Crimes episode when Riley and I talked about was spices being like one of 142 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:33.000 the most valuable things in the ancient world, Like a pound of saffron was 143 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.759 worth any more than like almost a statue of gold at some points in human 144 00:10:37.799 --> 00:10:43.559 history. So you know, your players being like illegal spice merchants is like 145 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.720 a take that no one has had before, or that very few games have 146 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:50.399 you know, run before, And it's those kind of things that I think 147 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:56.000 players are interested. So yeah, big fan for you know. I know 148 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:00.320 we start with Roman toilets, but like there's some really interesting things that you 149 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:05.639 can do when you start thinking logistically, what does this environment look like for 150 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.799 my for my players and what can they benefit from if they're a part of 151 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:11.759 this environment. I always think it's super fascinating. So all right, sorry 152 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.279 I was a tangent, but I mean that's what we're doing. You said, 153 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.759 we're just a couple of guys We're just a couple of guys shitting around. 154 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.279 It's the otter side bars is what we're here for. That's it's content, 155 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:28.320 baby, it's content. Well I can think of when you're like this, 156 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.759 a couple of guys messing around. What's better than this? Guys being 157 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:35.840 dudes? Step buying to the guy in the football stadium. Yea, all 158 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:41.200 right, what's next? We went over Roman toilets. I'm ready, all 159 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.039 right? So I I this is a deep cut question, and I want 160 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:48.080 to make sure that, as as the dork, we are properly prepared to 161 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.360 know that if if in fact there's this again going back cliches, cliches or 162 00:11:52.399 --> 00:12:00.200 cliche for a reason, was Rasputine in fact Russia's greatest love machine? And 163 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:05.919 if not? Who you know you? So? Man, are we gonna 164 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.600 this is the this is the next tier? List is going to be psychotic 165 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.399 Russian love machines. Whether where does Rasputin land among them? So, I 166 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.720 don't know if he would say, I don't know if we can say definitively 167 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.799 if Rasputin was the greatest love machine in Russia. Um, we can definitely 168 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:28.799 say with some degree of certainty that he did achieve near godlike status in that 169 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:35.080 respect the man personally, Where do you land on the y a personal a 170 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:41.720 Kyle lot Hot take on Rasputin? Is he cool, fun pseudo occult figure 171 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:48.440 or is he overrated historical psychopath? You decide. Here's the thing I think. 172 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:52.759 I mean, Russia's just lousy with these just absolute iconoclasts. It doesn't 173 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.399 matter like where you go, right, Um. I think he's super interesting 174 00:12:56.519 --> 00:13:00.240 in terms of the everything about him, right because on the one hand, 175 00:13:00.279 --> 00:13:05.360 you have this weird esoteric Eastern Orthodox Catholic monk who is basically spewing off his 176 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:13.799 own personal pseudoscience pseudomagic philosophy, and it lands him adjacent to the great like 177 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.440 like one of the greatest empires in the modern world, insane, just just 178 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.360 off the rib. It's it's like if Forrest Gump did a ton academine, 179 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:22.960 like if we just had made that into the movie, because he winds up 180 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.360 just being with a bunch of important people all the time, and the story 181 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:33.360 of how they try to assassinate him isn't is in and of itself somewhere between 182 00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:37.080 like a yakety Sacks like we tried everything dan land Land, like guns are 183 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:41.639 going off because he was like shot and stabbed like sixty times or something ridiculous 184 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:43.639 amount, and then drowned and then poisoned it. Those at home like, 185 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:50.279 how how well do you remember the respute and assassination attempts for anybody who's unfamiliar 186 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.080 with such things. So all right, So for those of you who are 187 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.360 maybe uninitiated. Rasputin is a monk. He was an advisor to the Romanov 188 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:05.159 family like ride around World War two ish, World War one ish. He 189 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:09.480 basically they had a kid that one of the Russian nobility, and I'm blanking 190 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:13.960 on his son's a hemophiliac and modern medicine was not doing a whole lot for 191 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:18.240 him, and so they turned to this monk and they were like, hey, 192 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.320 your magic, you could fix this. And I basically he winds up 193 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:28.480 manipulating the family and gaining access to all this power under the guise of saving 194 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:35.840 their kid, which it's clear he probably didn't do truthfully. And then of 195 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:37.879 course eventually there's a bunch of Russian nobles they're like, you know, this 196 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:41.840 guy's got way too much power. They tried to assassinate him. It does 197 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:48.919 not go according to plan, like at all. They literally like they come 198 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.639 up with like nine different ways to like end this guy, and it just 199 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.799 none of them work. Like he's shot, he's stabbed, he's poisoned, 200 00:14:56.120 --> 00:15:01.759 he's drowned, and it's a it's unclear whether it's like one of those things 201 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.039 or a combination thereof that wind up taking him down. Um So, just 202 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.559 incredibly fascinating. Great villain as well. If you watch Anastasia the movie, 203 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:16.120 um so Dark of the Night baby, Yeah, it fantastic. Yeah I 204 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.120 would, it's Yeah, that's a tearless too. His best villain songs, 205 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.240 that's an steer one for sure. But yeah, I think he's I think 206 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.960 he's horribly fascinating because he's just a really charismatic dude that winds up preying on 207 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:35.879 this one family's desperation and the consequences for early modern Russia are massive. Now, 208 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:39.559 is he Russia's greatest love machine? No, I'm gonna say no, 209 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:46.720 because Catherine the Great exists. Okay, all right, So Catherine the Great 210 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:52.200 had like different summer homes. Yes, that was a woman who was like, 211 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.519 I don't give a crap, you get all She's like at a time 212 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.759 when women were like derided for having any amount of sex. Um, she 213 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.960 was like, I'm just gonna build different powers twenty three you're talking about twenty 214 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:07.600 twenty three. Sometimes yeah, oh, shout out to Florida for being a 215 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.000 consistent embarrassment to the rest of the world. But no, it's got to 216 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.519 be Catherine, kath of the Great Man. She's like, you know, 217 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.600 she could, she could literally do it all in terms of like matters of 218 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:19.960 state. And then she was like, you know what I need like hobbies, 219 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:25.320 and my hobbies are my nineteen side pieces. Like she had it down 220 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.759 to a science. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get I gotta give it to 221 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:33.799 Katherine the Great. So so in terms of the pick, the design transition, 222 00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:38.399 the idea is that so rescuting this story, Like what kind of tropes 223 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:42.440 can we pull out? Because I feel like zombie rescipute not just the end 224 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:48.879 of Statia cartoon, but there's a number of sources, both in a speculative 225 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:53.960 fiction that have taken such inspiration. And everybody loves an all history, you 226 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:57.879 know, dictator or something um, but there's very few figures that I think 227 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.840 have been made again at it again and again, like oh, let's do 228 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:06.400 a steam punk version of him, like Rasputin. So in terms of like, 229 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:11.400 you know, this machiavellian politics, in terms of visor behind the throne, 230 00:17:11.400 --> 00:17:15.279 what kind of tropes can you from an analytical standpoint, do you think 231 00:17:15.319 --> 00:17:18.319 you could like deconstruct and pull out of this rescue and stuff. I mean, 232 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:23.000 he is as close to a full stop comic book villain as you're going 233 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.680 to get historically. Like, truthfully, he is full stop, right down 234 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:33.400 to the occult origins, to his nigh indestructible presence too, Like you are 235 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:40.960 not gonna find a better stand in for the supervillain as you are from Resputin. 236 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.759 Right, he satisfies that itch because he truly he was, for all 237 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.720 intents and purposes. I mean a lot of them were a scheming, conniving, 238 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.480 power hungry evil person. Right, So you've got that, and I 239 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:57.519 think it's but I think it's the occult and the religious trappings around Resputing that 240 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:03.400 make him such an appealing villain figure. If he was just a regular politician, 241 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.240 we would despise him. He would be despicable. Um, there would 242 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.920 probably we would probably his you know, the events of his assassination would still 243 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:15.440 be interesting, But I don't think he would be nearly as ingrained in pop 244 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:18.519 culture as he is now because of the occult, because of the religious influences. 245 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.599 Because let's be real, whether or not you know people believe in it, 246 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:27.319 it doesn't really matter. People love the spooky look, people love spooky 247 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:33.279 stuff, and he's he's a spooky dude. Um. I will say my 248 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:37.200 first instinct as a designer is to lean back into the love machine thing and 249 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.440 answer yeah. And then answer that question, Graham. I don't know if 250 00:18:41.440 --> 00:18:45.519 you ever played a game called Monster prom U, but sure, yeah. 251 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:49.240 All I could think about is like the dating is like, give me an 252 00:18:49.240 --> 00:18:53.839 a historical dating sim with all of the major figures in Russian history, like 253 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:02.119 put him in a high school or something man like that sounds so funny to 254 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:10.880 me. I'm imagining now that you've done the love Machine Russia's Greatest love Machine 255 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:15.160 angle, it makes me want to do like, um, like a party 256 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:19.160 game, something simple about either like guessing stuff or people having these different competitions, 257 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.440 or it's like, uh, um, the dating game but with like 258 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.440 various historical figures, whether they are because it's who is the greatest love machine? 259 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.960 I can feel the audience like shouting along to the title, right, 260 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:40.680 Yes, I feel like I feel like game show energy energy, but we're 261 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.359 on the joke. Yeah, there you go exactly. You know what time 262 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.119 it is everyone, It's time. Feels like a party game. Russia's Greatest 263 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:52.559 Love Machine. Um, oh my god. You could have people hold up 264 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:56.119 cards that saying yet they don't want me? Yeah, they don't want it. 265 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:03.160 Oh bachelor number one on, Um, welcome back to Russia as great 266 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:06.279 as love Machine, where we find out who gets hammered and who gets the 267 00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:11.359 sickle? Uh, give that to me. That's pretty good. I think 268 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.759 now that feels like that hadn't have been done before. You have the fun 269 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:21.480 Vilion came pulling somebody off the screen. Why has nobody done a giant sickle? 270 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:26.759 And she's just like that somebody in half. There's some very specific cross 271 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:30.000 section of the Internet that I think is gonna love the crap out of this 272 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.880 game, and a very specific cross section of the Internet that's gonna be like, 273 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.039 who are these lunatics? But I think it's funny, So I'm in. 274 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:38.759 I mean, you go on, you go on, TikTok, and 275 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:42.079 I don't think we'll be out lunatic. I think you know, Sky's Sky's 276 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:47.759 the limit Sky's the limit for Sky's the limit for our friends over on TikTok 277 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:52.480 It's fair. Um now, man, yeah, no, I think I 278 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.599 think dating sim dating sim rasciput and as I think where I want it, 279 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:00.319 I want us to be for this particular, this particular game. That's what 280 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.359 I'm interested in. Oh man, No, I'm not. I'm gonna think 281 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:08.799 this is gonna live rent free in my brain now all day. I'm gonna 282 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.759 be like I have enough, Like, well, this will consume all of 283 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:15.440 my available free time. All right, grant what else do we got? 284 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.680 What you got next on the list for me? Buddy? Yeah? My 285 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.880 next question, um is uh about Marbles? And because I wanted to go 286 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.880 more in the game game design, like right off the bat, all right, 287 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:33.240 so we understand Marbles. You know, why are Marble's names such? 288 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:38.160 If they're not made out of Marble? That is a question that I don't 289 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:48.880 know off the top of my head. Probably we did it, but no, 290 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:53.000 I truthfully think they probably were made of Marble or some other thing like 291 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:57.480 it, because like Marbles go back, I mean, I don't. I 292 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:00.160 don't want to like shoot myself in the out here by like saying a wrong 293 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:06.640 fact but I'm fairly certain those are ancient, like or like games like marbles 294 00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:10.599 where you had chucked stones at other stones have been around for thousands of years. 295 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:12.839 I'm gonna google this because now now this is now, this is this 296 00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:19.519 is still on the rocks. There is something kind of primal belling chucking rocks. 297 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.839 So how long favorite memories have been like doing camping trips and you know 298 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.279 it's just time. Time stretches out forever. Day ball is up or day 299 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:32.640 ball is down. It changed the way you look. And then you invent 300 00:22:32.680 --> 00:22:34.839 a game and you don't really mean to. It's take a rock, I 301 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.920 throw it into the lake. You throw a rockets how close you can get 302 00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.079 to where I threw it? And then do that for hours like that's that's 303 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:45.200 that's the level of like, oh man, I could could do this all 304 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:48.559 day long. Yes, and I think that's truthfully something primal. I'm looking 305 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.680 at it. Apparently, so no one apparently knows the real origin of marbles, 306 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:57.599 which is which is great. What I'm getting is that they were most 307 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:03.200 likely made in the eighteen hundred. It's by a glassmaker, all right, 308 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:07.359 So you were imagining as I was, You know, this is some kind 309 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.160 of like pre Babylonian we're gonna throw things in the dirt and then it rises 310 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:17.599 up and then now we have again this like injust a Revolution game we were 311 00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:19.920 both imagining. So ha ha, we've found it. But but I mean, 312 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.920 you've done how do we find a game design? You did it based 313 00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:30.480 on this? It's you just you just turns out you just start winging stuff 314 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.559 that other stuff like, which is that's fair? That's how it should be? 315 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.160 Like that is that is peak game design? I think too. I 316 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.440 think that's that is it right? Like you chuck rocks it something all day 317 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:42.680 long and it's fun, and then I think that's perfect. Like I think 318 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:47.240 that's that's as good as it could be, um in terms of like what 319 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:48.920 we're looking for, and I think in terms of like game design in general. 320 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:53.000 I man, I can't believe it's not older than that. I think 321 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:59.039 there is. There is all learning something today. There is a there has 322 00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:02.240 to be. I'm fairly certain. I read about it like a Babylonian or 323 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:04.839 like a Sumerian game that was very similar, but I just might be this 324 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:07.400 might just be KPM at this point. There's here be a planted memory, 325 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:11.960 you know, like you maybe just invented it. This is so easy to 326 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:17.279 imagine, you know, like sort a sword and Sandals version of marbles right 327 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:19.160 there. I mean there are games like it, Like the Romans played like 328 00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:22.920 a something like a rune chucking game, but it was fairly close. Um, 329 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.160 same with the Norse who had a very similar type of game outside of 330 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:32.319 Heneth, which is henneff thoughful, which is sure. There's all the like 331 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:38.240 they're more the things that are checkers, e CHESTI. Um, you know, 332 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:42.200 uh you have you have these things that are like backgammon adjacent with moving 333 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.839 pieces around boards. But the idea of dexterity games, I'll go on record 334 00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:52.039 right now I absolutely adore dexterterity games because of the time I spent in board 335 00:24:52.039 --> 00:24:57.160 game cafes teaching to people. Yeah, I am personally invested in getting people 336 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.039 having fun quickly, and then also not knowing a person personally and being like, 337 00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.119 how can I teach a game that I can have fun? And one 338 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:10.680 of the barriers to entry off in for games involves complexity and people being scared 339 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:12.359 up by theme so they're like, oh, this game will have too many 340 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:17.039 rules. You know, there'll be somebody who hasn't been grown up, a 341 00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:21.880 born in the darkness, born in the nursing right, you know, Like 342 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:26.839 I was seven years old struggling through trying to play Match of the Gathering in 343 00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:30.519 a time in which ice age was out, so you really didn't understand what 344 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:33.799 those cards did. And so now I'm like, oh, yes, I 345 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:41.039 will read a board game manual for fun and then try and sort out grammatically 346 00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.440 what it means. And so the idea that like, if somebody is very 347 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.319 good at a game, or very good at certain kinds of games, not 348 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:53.640 everybody is going to have such an equally fun experience at the table. So 349 00:25:55.079 --> 00:26:02.119 things that aren't Matthew or employ a different number of skills. Um, i'm 350 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.079 i'm. I love cooperative games because for those reasons, or things like dixit, 351 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:12.200 which is about emotional intelligence communication. Dixiarity games fit into that as well, 352 00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:18.279 because when you fail, it's funny automatically and then everyone is already there. 353 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:22.119 I have a great interest. I have a great interest in Dixiarity games 354 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.440 and the kind of variety that you can create from them. When I see 355 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:32.599 you next, have you played Magic Mountain yet? I Deemo? Did it? 356 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:34.480 Is? I haven't actually like played a real game of it. It's 357 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:38.559 it is marbles and ye wizards, yep, it is it is that it 358 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:42.000 is that feeling at least when I played it, because we I played it 359 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.519 with adults, like sitting around having beers and and playing Magic Mountain, and 360 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:51.359 like, I was like, this game is not going to be enjoyable. 361 00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:56.839 And then I was like I will be purchasing a game to bring home and 362 00:26:56.960 --> 00:27:00.319 I did like it captures that like same issue of like, well, you 363 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:03.440 know, what are we gonna do? Like what what's gonna be the fun 364 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:07.160 thing to do? And it turns out the fun thing is just chucking stuff 365 00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:11.359 at other stuff. That's it. If you've taken nothing else from this show, 366 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:15.759 everybody, it's chucking stuff at other stuff. That is the most human 367 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.960 and primal of all urg just okay, so so yes, and that what's 368 00:27:19.000 --> 00:27:22.880 the uh the design kind of element for going forward from that? Okay, 369 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:26.160 so we know that this is fun. Put on your designer hat now, 370 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:30.960 mister Ott, and give me a sidebar. I here's the thing I think 371 00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.279 if you're gonna do this, I'm not saying to design a game. I 372 00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.799 just like this make you think about it. It makes me think of Baka 373 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.599 Gun, like someone literally looked at Marbles and they're like, what if it 374 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.000 does? Because I'm like, oh man, this would be so cool. 375 00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:48.000 You can add that dexterity element to the game. People got a game. 376 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.359 It is a game. It is a game. I know this because my 377 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.640 cousin used to play it when he was little, and like every Christmas, 378 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.400 my poor grandmother, who does not know anything about any of this stuff, 379 00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.960 was just like, I'm gonna go buy your cousin a Baku Gone and I 380 00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:04.680 was like, we're all of this, like cool Grahams. And he would 381 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:08.119 show up and like he would have the Baka gons and he'd be playing them 382 00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.519 and we were like, oh, I don't know what's going on in this 383 00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:15.400 game, but it's kind of cool. And it would happen all the time. 384 00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.759 But it's just it was funny because like I'm just sitting there thinking, 385 00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:22.160 like, you know, I probably could make thing, and I was like, 386 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.039 wow, that could be kind of interesting. But then also and then 387 00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:26.680 I was like, wait a second, I am just making Baka gun. 388 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.279 I have just I've just made Boka Gun Battle brawlers. That's all I've done. 389 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.279 I was like, if you had powers, this could be kind of 390 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:37.599 entertaining. This could be kind of a it's it's just Boka gun. I've 391 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.079 just made Baka gone again in my head. But again, I think that's 392 00:28:41.279 --> 00:28:45.160 that's the primal thing though, right is like people like chucking stuff and other 393 00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:49.240 stuff. There's a monkey brain like it's awesome, but like we like banging 394 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:56.240 two rocks together and sometimes those rocks have special powers. That's so you heard 395 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:02.200 it here first, your fiery hot take from this to Kyle at Oman Empire, 396 00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:07.359 UM give things special powers? Yeahs uh. If you're it's it's the 397 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:11.119 shark tank of game design. You've come to desks and dorcs with your design. 398 00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:15.920 You say, okay, we we prostrate in front of the great experts. 399 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:18.200 Uh, Kyle, their strokes is now non existent. Beer, and 400 00:29:18.200 --> 00:29:23.200 he goes give the things special powers. And then everyone like freaks out because 401 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:27.720 nobody's ever thought to do that before. I mean, but another sidebar. 402 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:32.720 Have you played Dungeon Fighter at all? I love duet Fighter. One of 403 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.519 us talked about how much I loved dexterity games like I love Dudgeon Fighter. 404 00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.960 I am so glad when I worked for Yellow Um. Shout out to my 405 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:45.519 old employers they I visited and like I visited their warehouse in Indiana and they 406 00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.240 were like, whatever you want, Like if it's out of print or whatever, 407 00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:52.319 we're not selling to just take a couple of games. So I have 408 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:56.400 all of Dungeon Fighter. I have all of the original Yellow Games, Horrible 409 00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.799 Games crossover of Dungeon Fighter with the expansion. So when Kickstarter came out and 410 00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:02.960 I was like, I'm gonna buy Anne and Fighter I missed the first time, 411 00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.119 It's like I have it. I have it all and it's it's great, 412 00:30:04.519 --> 00:30:08.160 Like I will play it consistently and it's it's still on my game shelf 413 00:30:08.480 --> 00:30:14.319 has not left, probably will never leave. Yeah, but they end special 414 00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:17.759 powers and chugging things and other things. It's a great It's just it's good 415 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.359 stuff. Yeah. I'm a big fan of again, so like novel interactions, 416 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.400 so that would be dexterity of and fits in that. But then something 417 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:30.319 looking compelling on the table is something that's that's big for me. The idea 418 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:37.359 of my my hypothetical audience is always um, the um, the tentative and 419 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:41.440 the uny easy pitch. Ye. I feel like if you if you have 420 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:45.920 a common language with somebody, especially when you spend all this time and cons 421 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.440 you start to realize, like part of it, what's like level level zero 422 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.839 is like pop culture references, and then ones like we consume the same media, 423 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.559 and then two as we play the same kind of games. And so 424 00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:00.559 the idea that like, once I realize that you also like Battlestar Galactica, 425 00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:03.880 I can be like, oh, well do you also like things that fly 426 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.519 around and blow up? Okay, well now we can talk about stuff, 427 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.160 but I'm always imagined it in my head, like the people that don't really 428 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:12.799 want to be there and they're not sure if they want to, so how 429 00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:18.279 to pitch that? And Dungeon Fighter looks cool, It looks cool to play, 430 00:31:18.559 --> 00:31:22.799 And again this idea of if you see people playing it, you immediately 431 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.480 want to go over and be like, why is that person stand there back 432 00:31:25.480 --> 00:31:30.480 to a target throwing things over their shoulder while everyone shouts and screams yes, 433 00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:33.720 you want to know who those people are and what they're doing. And for 434 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:38.119 me, that's the incredible power of games, and that's Dungeon Fighter and games 435 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.039 Light. Dungeon Fighter, for example, heavily inspired Banana Bread. Because when 436 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:45.640 we go to conventions, people are not always like clamoring to go to a 437 00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:48.559 role playing game because the table presence is hard, and role playing games are 438 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.759 hard to sell to inexperienced players. So we're like, we need something that's 439 00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:56.720 easy to teach if you've never really done a role playing game before and has 440 00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.319 that table presence, has that oomp, that X factor of like, wow, 441 00:32:00.319 --> 00:32:02.039 there's some stuff that's going on over there. Everyone there seems to be 442 00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:07.319 having a great time. What's happening? Um and dungeon Fighter again, huge 443 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.400 insprit. People like chucking stuff. If you take anything from this episode, 444 00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:15.200 Roman toilets are dangerous. People like throwing things at other things. That's it. 445 00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:22.319 That's the that's the there's the lightning pitch. All right, So you 446 00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:23.839 have one more? What I have for you? One more? One more? 447 00:32:23.880 --> 00:32:27.680 All right? Absolutely? Yeah? I got one more. And then 448 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.160 I got and then I got a weird question for you. I get asked 449 00:32:31.200 --> 00:32:34.759 the weird question. Oh this is a good day. Okay, all right. 450 00:32:35.160 --> 00:32:37.319 I was gonna host him do the intro too, but you know, 451 00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:42.279 I'm sorry I beat you to it. I'm so fast. Uh so I 452 00:32:42.359 --> 00:32:45.480 have I have a couple other like sarcastic ones, but I'm gonna I'm gonna 453 00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:51.119 end in a more serious one, okay. Um, so I I I 454 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.839 too, am a a lover of history and politics. Um, but what 455 00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:00.480 we've done is we've danced around. I mean, Rasciputin was kind of cuspy 456 00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:04.519 there. But there's this idea of like history being long passed, and so 457 00:33:04.759 --> 00:33:07.559 a lot of themes are these ancient places, right. We're talking about Rome, 458 00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:13.240 we're talking about Egypt. The stuff that's really fun because it feels very 459 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:16.880 much like a Lord of the Ring setting, but with an edge of reality 460 00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:23.640 because it's connected today. And as you are, like teaching in schools, 461 00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:28.160 what was frustrated to be as a kid in school and now as an adult 462 00:33:28.519 --> 00:33:32.200 is once they get to the relevant stuff the twentieth century, we don't teach 463 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:37.200 it in America because it's too real, because it's it's not history anymore. 464 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:45.440 It's not this ancient thing that has no consequence of today. And so using 465 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.920 this opportunity as kind of a soapbox and open ended, you know, the 466 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:52.920 game design things come second. I just want to ask you personally, what 467 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:59.640 do you think, like from an education standpoint, what from the twentieth century 468 00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:04.799 is missing from US education? But we should be talking about and that we're 469 00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:09.400 not. It is the recency of the civil rights movement. I've legitimately had 470 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:16.239 this conversation with some of my kids because we were talking about the Black History 471 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.360 Month was February, and we were talking about the Civil rights movement and a 472 00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:24.920 lot of them didn't know who Ruby Bridges was. And I know we did 473 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.400 a story on Ruby Bridges because we're talking about symbolism. There's a great story 474 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:34.079 called The Other Sides, all about segregation. And they're like, wow, 475 00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:36.280 I can't believe things used to be like this, And I was like, 476 00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:43.639 we say used to right, right? We laugh because it is still like 477 00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:47.559 that in many places. But what's baffling to me is the way that the 478 00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:52.920 civil rights movement is presented. Right. You talk about history not having consequences, 479 00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:55.920 right, because you're like, oh, it's so ancient, it's it's 480 00:34:55.960 --> 00:35:02.599 back there. One of the most nefari I think issues with the way history 481 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.559 is presented is the way that the Civil rights movement is presented as happening a 482 00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:12.920 long time ago, rather than being something that happened within my grandparents' lifetime. 483 00:35:14.199 --> 00:35:17.880 For a huge example of this, if you look at pictures of Martin Luther 484 00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:23.079 King's March. Those pictures were not originally taken in black and white. Those 485 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:27.679 pictures were taken in full color, and then we're made into black and white 486 00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:31.199 and then put into textbooks. Why are we not presenting these in full color? 487 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:37.760 Is a question that I have because as a scholar, I'm thinking to 488 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:40.760 myself, if I see the color right again, we go back to that 489 00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:45.960 like lovely little like caveman brain. That's like color recent, not black and 490 00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:51.800 white older? Right, Why is that not in full color? That's a 491 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:59.440 question that I have. Ruby Bridges has an Instagram account, Like, that's 492 00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:04.920 something to talk about. Ruby Bridges has an Instagram account. If Martin Lutine 493 00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.519 had not been asassinated, he could very well still be alive and being a 494 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:15.280 civil rights activist today, right, Like, those are things that I think 495 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:21.719 by distancing ourselves from them on the chronology of our country's history, it is 496 00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:24.760 setting a dangerous precedent, at least in my mind as a scholar, where 497 00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:30.639 I'm like, there's an issue with the way this is presented. These are 498 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.679 this is not ancient history. The civil rights movement was not ancient history. 499 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:39.559 It does still have massive consequences. Its importance is still relevant to this day, 500 00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:43.960 and it should be talked about more, and it should be talked about 501 00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.199 not as something that has happened in the far flung past, but as a 502 00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:52.239 recent struggle that our country is still kind of coming to grips with and attempting 503 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:57.519 to work our way through with limited success and failure depending on what part of 504 00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:01.039 the country you're in and what social group you ascribed to. I think that's 505 00:37:01.119 --> 00:37:06.480 that's my that's my soapbox moment. That's it. I put them in full 506 00:37:06.519 --> 00:37:10.679 color. I mean, it's if you use the word nefarious and it's it's 507 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.599 uh, it's absolutely apt. I mean the idea that being ancient is not 508 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:19.679 true, because if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't have Black Lives Matter, 509 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:28.079 we wouldn't have continuingly like movements of please recognize our humanity and getting pushback 510 00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:30.599 like the idea no, no, all lives matter. I'm like, okay, 511 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:35.960 So that clearly the conversation is ongoing because you're not listening, right. 512 00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.119 Um. The other aspect of these figures, Oh yeah, The second part 513 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.679 of my answer to you about you know, uh, these figures is the 514 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:52.039 way very nefarious in which they're claimed by the main stream, and then the 515 00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:54.679 narrative has changed this whole, the whole. I've been fascinated with the idea 516 00:37:54.719 --> 00:38:00.400 that like, uh, kids in school are taught about like Rosa Parks. 517 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:04.719 And the narrative is that she was just like a tired old lady that refuses 518 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:07.440 it down, not that she was like an activist and this it was like 519 00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:14.199 a specific act of disobedience and that she had done these things before. No, 520 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.639 she was just like a tired old lady. And who was Martin Luther 521 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:21.719 Deane Well, Martin Luther King was a communist and he had all of these 522 00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:24.159 political ideas. But it's like no, no, no, he had a 523 00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:30.079 dream and then we right now now everyone's free and and to that point, 524 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:35.159 this is just I'll give you another fun fact. One of my favorite painters 525 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.320 of all time is Norman Rockwell. M Yeah, I love, I love, 526 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:40.960 I do. I love Norman Rockwell. And I always that that's the 527 00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.920 reaction I usually get people like, really, I and maybe it's because I 528 00:38:45.960 --> 00:38:50.039 grew up your boy's life, but like I love the pastoral stuff that he 529 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:54.519 does, like like America in the nineteen fifties feels like how America presents itself 530 00:38:55.960 --> 00:39:00.199 when I turned it into a horror game. I mean, but well, 531 00:39:00.199 --> 00:39:04.760 he was what I percentive without commentary. That's that's Norman Rockwell in a nutshell. 532 00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:07.880 But this is what I love about Norman Rockwell, and this is the 533 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:09.760 part that it gets clossed over. Norman Rockwell was hugely active in the civil 534 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:15.519 rights movement, hugely active in the Civil rights movement, and actually depicts Ruby 535 00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:21.599 Bridges going into school. Um, so he depicts her Instagram account. He 536 00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:24.920 probably would have if he was still alive. But what's crazy is so Lifetime 537 00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:28.280 Magazine, in the magazine that published all of Norman Rockwell stuff, he was 538 00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:34.239 their cover illustrator, refused to put his painting of Ruby Bridges as the cover 539 00:39:34.599 --> 00:39:38.599 when it was happening, and he resigned, like the Instagram hadn't been invented 540 00:39:38.639 --> 00:39:44.400 yet, we don't under it. It is, But I always think that's 541 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:47.559 crazy, like Norman Rockwell, who was often sort of co opted by certain 542 00:39:47.559 --> 00:39:51.960 forces, being like this is typical Americana, this is America as it should 543 00:39:51.960 --> 00:39:57.880 be right. Um was so invested in the civil rights movement that the very 544 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:01.519 publication that gave him his fame, his money, his artistic clout. He 545 00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.440 just said, nope, screw you guys, I'm leaving by piece and publish 546 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:09.079 the paintings on his own. Again, it's this whitewashing of this history that 547 00:40:09.320 --> 00:40:13.440 should be there, should be real, should be present. So whitewashing, 548 00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:15.639 yes, but but the claiming for me. For me, it's it's this 549 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:22.000 action of pulling it close to the breast, is saying this thing is not 550 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.679 fringe. They were not fighting for their things against the power. They're part 551 00:40:25.719 --> 00:40:30.280 of the power structure. For me, that's the nefarious part. Whitewashing is 552 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.559 just like we're rewriting. But that is like oh no, no, Rosa 553 00:40:32.599 --> 00:40:36.639 Parks American hero, no, no, no, like all these things and 554 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:40.960 seeing this happen to other figures is specifically about changing the narrative and filling them 555 00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:45.760 with simply lies. Yeah, it's not you know, it's not a tweak, 556 00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:49.679 it's not nothing. It's completely changing it so that it could be said, 557 00:40:49.719 --> 00:40:53.519 oh no, we're gonna quietly place them on these pedestals next to white 558 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:57.199 slave owners who still have statues. Right. Well, and that's why I 559 00:40:57.239 --> 00:40:59.320 wanted to bring him. Norman Rockwell, it's the same thing like, oh 560 00:40:59.400 --> 00:41:02.360 he didn't struggle there's nothing controversial, there's nothing he didn't believe. Nope. 561 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:06.079 And it's like, now, that was a huge part of who he was 562 00:41:06.119 --> 00:41:12.239 as a person. And again it gets it's almost like the blob. It 563 00:41:12.519 --> 00:41:17.840 just gets assimilated or there we go. All right. But that's that's a 564 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:20.880 good question though, Graham. That was a good one, that was And 565 00:41:20.960 --> 00:41:22.719 I yeah, because I've been thinking about that recently. So that's cool. 566 00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:30.480 So how do you pull out something either inspirational or designing or you know, 567 00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:32.440 it could be again that it doesn't always have they theme. I feel like 568 00:41:32.440 --> 00:41:39.719 we talked about history down actually like that right, like my to to set 569 00:41:39.719 --> 00:41:44.519 a game to it. It's something that that's real, Like this feels not 570 00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:46.400 disingenuous or not wrong, because I think games can be great teaching moments. 571 00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:52.440 Um. There's the Underground Railroad. Railroad board game that was published was like 572 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:57.519 twenty eight, twenty seventeen, very good. Um. And then Damian Stone, 573 00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:00.519 someone who ushould be very familiar with Graham because he was the lead designer 574 00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:04.000 a net runner for a number of years, recently made a board game card 575 00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:07.480 game all about the civil rights movement, um, which is cool. It's 576 00:42:07.480 --> 00:42:12.480 and it's a great opportunity, um, you know, to get people involved 577 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:16.519 in that, right, So my, my, my, my inclind not 578 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:21.880 inclination. My statement is this, if you're going to want to play some 579 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:23.519 games, or you're gonna want to find a little bit more, um, 580 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:28.639 go to creators who are are making the kind of stuff that we're talking about, 581 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.159 um, and support their creations because that's that's hugely important. Um. 582 00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.760 I'm just gonna leave it like that. We're a couple of white guys complaining 583 00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:43.800 about things. Yeah uh. And I think that a way to create activism 584 00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:47.760 and truth and change in the design world people are following their passions. Yeah 585 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:52.360 uh. And so the idea that you're like, oh, let's talk about 586 00:42:52.840 --> 00:42:57.840 uh, say the um, the immigrant experience in America, perhaps we should 587 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.559 go to creators who are themselves part of that community and other the stories of 588 00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:05.360 those communities and not us. Like you know, Chinatown I think is a 589 00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:09.880 really fabulous board game, but the way that it flippidly deals with the setting 590 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:14.159 is a way that makes me, like pretty uncomfortable. And I think that 591 00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:19.039 a lot of these conversations can even go. So I think that's a fabulous 592 00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:22.480 lesson to take from oh Man Rosa Parks wasn't just like a tired old lady, 593 00:43:23.000 --> 00:43:28.079 go out and find games people doing about stuff that are of interest to 594 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:34.159 them and important, because game design is a way to express history and art 595 00:43:34.440 --> 00:43:37.719 and culture any number of things. Yeah, and that's not to say that 596 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:39.159 if you aren't from those groups, you can't or shouldn't make a game, 597 00:43:39.199 --> 00:43:43.280 Like there's nothing stopping anyone from making a game about civil rights, because I 598 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.000 think discouraging that from anybody is a bad idea. But we have creators, 599 00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:49.920 amazing creators who are going and doing it. Go support them, Go support 600 00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:52.280 those people there if they're sick. What's your weird question, Graham, I 601 00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:59.000 think that's that's That's what I'm misted. Okay, you know I've never really 602 00:43:59.039 --> 00:44:05.599 asked, what is your policy? Christenst Um? So we we we we 603 00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:07.800 are again, we are. We get like maybe one per episode. I 604 00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.360 think he I think he used it earlier. Um, But we yeah, 605 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.119 we we try very hard not to because for two reasons. One UM, 606 00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:19.000 a lot of my former students who are like ten and eleven listen to this 607 00:44:19.000 --> 00:44:22.639 podcast. Hi guys, Hello, everyone shout out, shout out to mister 608 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:25.320 Ratts class. That's my class. Hi, guys, hope hope middle school's 609 00:44:25.320 --> 00:44:29.400 going well. Um, like the couple that message me the other day and 610 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:30.679 we're like, hey, we really like your show. The episodes are going 611 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:35.519 really well. It seems like your guy's production value went up. Its messaged 612 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:37.480 me that when we got the new mic. He was like, oh yeah, 613 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:40.599 like this doesn't suck as much as it used to. It's like you're 614 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:45.599 not using your BlackBerry to record found anymore. Like thanks dude. Um, 615 00:44:45.639 --> 00:44:49.159 so we we try to shy away from cursing at least a little bit. 616 00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:52.199 I one girl, one of my former students, commented on like eight of 617 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.119 our videos, but hey, this is insert my students dame here from your 618 00:44:55.119 --> 00:44:58.840 fourth grade class. Do you remember me? You're my favorite. I'm a 619 00:44:58.880 --> 00:45:01.800 new subscriber and I was like this is adorable and also like it's great, 620 00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.559 but just you know, I have to be I have to be a little 621 00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:10.320 cautious. Well in that case, Uh, My weird question this episode to 622 00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:17.880 you, mister Ah is um uh Mary kiss kill Hitler, Stalin, Paul 623 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:32.480 pot Ah, Dang kill myself is that I don't don't want to do this 624 00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:36.760 one now. I don't know if I could do I don't know if I 625 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:40.519 could do this. Oh, I could do this one. Uh? Just 626 00:45:40.599 --> 00:45:43.920 do I have want to roll of dice? Oh god, this is like 627 00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:50.800 which one of your organs do you want removed? Will kill Hitler? Kiss 628 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:59.480 Stalin? Right? I guess this is all We broke him. He's dead. 629 00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:04.000 Uh, I'm Graham. Thanks again for being on man. If you've 630 00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:07.360 quit us this this episode, and I hope you have because this has been 631 00:46:07.400 --> 00:46:08.960 a pretty fun one to do. If you have stuck with us, though, 632 00:46:09.119 --> 00:46:13.000 please make sure that you go ahead track down a copy of After the 633 00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:15.360 Rain. You can get it from our good friends over any Press Revolution. 634 00:46:15.400 --> 00:46:21.039 Also, a Fear with Him should be shipping very very soon to some backers. 635 00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:23.800 We finally got final layout done, which is very exciting, and then 636 00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:27.719 once that has been shipped out to backers, keep paying attention to desks in 637 00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:30.519 doorst Orger because there's a very real chance that you're gonna be able to track 638 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:36.519 down and get yourself a copy of it on from us, which will be 639 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:39.639 really interesting. So yeah, which would be cool h and unfortunate you won't 640 00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:43.480 be able to get at the kickstarter price, but it's what kickstarters for. 641 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.079 So but you if you're still interested. You're like, here's some cool things 642 00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:49.480 about fear within. You want to give it a shot for yourself. Keep 643 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:51.760 looking back at desks and door st or it will be hooking. Move people 644 00:46:51.840 --> 00:46:55.000 up as soon as a hook up. Our our wonderful beloved backers who make 645 00:46:55.000 --> 00:46:58.719 all the cool stuff that we do possible. Huge thank you, get a 646 00:46:58.760 --> 00:47:00.880 Graham against Graham. Thank you so much for being here on the episode and 647 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:06.639 for making my soul wither and die with that. You're so welcome, mister 648 00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.440 last question until next time, though, folks, we love you, appreciate 649 00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:13.519 you, thank you all so much, and we'll see you the next time. 650 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:15.480 Goodbye, everybody, good Bye bye,