What is krack alakin Fellow thermonuclear A efforts. I am Dan Favali coming at
you with my certified fantabulous co host mister Grant Hughes. Lots to get to.
But first and foremost, I would like to remind you all to please
subscribe to us and support us wherever you're consuming us YouTube, hit sub and
like, especially if you're watching now, help the algorithm, love us back
comments, help as well, Apple five star ratings and reviews. Help us
out a ton, and subscribe on Spotify as well. If you've done all
those things, hey tell your friends, acquaintances, co workers, any randos
on social media about us, Shout us out on Twitter. You could retweet
our promos. That comes as a big help to anything. Join our discords
link to that's in the podcast and YouTube description. And finally, it is
live. I'll eventually promote it on social media, but the link is in
the YouTube description. It will be in the podcast description. We have merch.
I'm wearing one of said merch. We've updated the designs a little bit
so you'll see hardwood knocks on these, but I'm wearing a Thermonuclear AFT shirt.
For anyone who can't see, and anyone who can see the MIC's in
the way, So I make no apologies. I would aggressively if you're getting
clothes, recommend upsizing aggressively upsizing Grant, and I can confirm after having some
test merch. So that's exciting. We've got stickers, the whole nine.
Maybe we'll eventually run some giveaways depending on how popular these things become. But
stickers pains, mugs grants as they hold up in the dishwasher. So the
reviews are in. Get yourself some hardwood, knocks, swag, and now
we get to the actual thing that people care about. Grant. How are
you doing. I'm feeling I'm feeling good, And I just want you to
know this is my favorite thing from the last few days from the NBA that
if you ever need to demote me from the starting lineup, unlike D'Angelo Russell,
you will not quote unquote lose me. Did you see that? That's
my favorite thing because it just says everything you need to know about Russell,
doesn't it? Like wasn't that? That's that's the information you need if you're
thinking about signing him this summer. Well, and the other thing is like,
did you see that they actually did lose him. I don't know if
he did. You see the picture of him when there was that skirmish between
I think it was Aaron Gordon and Lebron James. In the first half it
was venn Well and Jeff Van Gundy. Because this is he is triggered by
this every time said something to the effect of like he wants no part of
the skirmish or whatever it was, which which he always means as like a
knock, oh, let's go perfect timing. He's just like he's like,
fuck this here shooting practice threes. That was great. Uh yeah. If
if there's a if there's a danger of losing someone based on their role in
like a do or die playoff game, that person that guy's already lost.
It's that's it's beyond beyond saving at that point. We're gonna get to the
Lakers, but I think we need to. I build this as the thumbnail.
I don't know if you looked at the thumbnail, it's time and I
don't I mean, this doesn't really feel like a spicy question for us who
both of us had Nicola Yokich as our MVP, and I think we would
have had him as it can. You know, we don't go into rankings
really on the show, but we would have had him as a top five
player pretty easily. But there's always these conversations. We saw it with the
honest We've seen it with Kawaide Durant Lebron where they have these strong playoff campaigns
or their teams make the finals, where their team wins the championship. So
this can be with the caveat that the Nuggets need to win the title.
It could be with what we've seen so far. Is NICOLEA. Yokich the
best player in the NBA? Yeah? I mean when you texted we were
talking about this yesterday, you texted and said, should we should we have
a discussion or what should we ask whether Yokich is the best player in the
NBA? And I my thought was going to be, this will be a
short discussion because like I guess maybe so. Yeah, I think so right,
because I guess maybe as much as anybody you would say that he needed
like playoff validation, right because those were sort of the only questions, and
you know, his MVP detractors or people that just were not on board with
trusting the catch all metrics that very clearly have said for a long time he's
the best player in the league. He needed to prove that defensively he could
hold up and honestly, like had to prove that to me. I think
I needed to see an extended playoff run where the Nuggets defended well enough with
him on the floor to sort of validate all of the sort of indisputable regular
season stuff. But yeah, I think so, you know, I don't
know even if the Nuggets need to win a title for me to feel comfortable
saying that, just because construct the argument against it, against that supposition.
Now it's just like, what even is it, because you can't really he's
been the best player in the postseason. They've now advanced to the finals convincingly,
you know, Kevin Durant gone, Lebron gone, Anthony Davis gone.
It's not like, you know, they've beaten good, great players. So
it's kind of like, you know, as Stephan Stotage says, Yogis was
the best player for the past four years in the comments, like I think
that I think I talked about this last time. Now we need to start
like sort of recalibrating what we've thought over the last several years and just acknowledge
that maybe he's not only the best right now, he's been the best for
a while. Because I don't know about you, but I don't really have
a good counter to that idea. No, and it's you even mentioned that
we even might be giving too much credence to the he needed this playoff resume
boost. I guess anecdotally to say, Okay, he's going to the NBA
Finals. But his playoff numbers were never bad. I mean, yeah,
the plus minus was off, but look at what he was working with the
past two years. And so now you put this incredibly talented supporting cast around
him, and oh, the Nuggets are headed to the finals. And there's
just I don't want to hear any of the caveats either. The margins were
so thin for every like that you could say the league wasn't as talented at
the top this year. Well guess what we were wrong about the Bucks.
We said that they might have been or I said they were the closest thing
to a jug or not the league had I was wrong, and then the
Nuggets were right there. The Nuggets were the closest thing to just a formality.
We had all season or inevitability, and they and I guess I have
to tip my cap to Nuggets fans here. They got mad during one of
our I think broadcasts actually when I said, I'm actually concerned about how this
last month of the season or so was going because it just looked like something
was off, and it's no, you know, really they were just you
know, I don't want to say they were screwing around, but it was
just the stakes weren't high enough for them because they are that good or they
were whatever it was. Maybe it wasn't advert maybe it wasn't inverting that it
happened, but they were able to overcome it. And I think for Yoki
specifically, I'm with you where it's hey, it's time to relitigate how we
viewed him all these past three years because the biggest and you touched upon this,
but whether it was fair or not, and I think it's proved that
it's unfair. The biggest knock against him was and it was among smart people
too. This isn't us talking against the wall where it's hey, we're dunking
on these clearly disingenuous takes. Yes, some of them, you know.
Drew Hamlin sixers propaganda, like some of them skewed towards disingenuous. They were
very smart people, people I respect that thought it was a fair question.
You had questions about his defense in the playoffs, so did I. I
thought that a lot of Nuggets fans tended to romanticize his defense, and that
came to bear a lot this season. There were questions among I'm not saying
that I'm among the smart people, but I think people that wanted to have
had a legitimate conversation about this, and it's just he's in the finals now,
and it was like that was the biggest question, and maybe it was.
Maybe it was probably a fair question for the most part, but like
it was being asked years. For years, this question has been being asked,
And I would say I think the issue with the question was a lot
of people were answering it in the disaffirmative where it was no, you can't
win a tide. It wasn't a curiosity. It was just this foregone conclusion
that you can't win a title with him as your best player. And and
we have this in the chat from Ryan Eggers, which dovetails with it.
If Yokich win the title, wins the titles. This the quickest MVP voters
ever regret their decision, And I will say I don't think it is because
I think it would dilute Yokich's own MVPs if we say, well, look
at how far Yokich made it relative to Embied when the knock was, oh,
Yokis got bounced and he shouldn't have won MVP. But like that was
also part of the Yokis discourse too, where it was he can't go far
in the playoffs, and it's just funny in the year that he doesn't win
MVP, And it's funny that it was after what I think it was after
game four, he says the Conference finals. I he means absolutely nothing,
dam which is iconic answer. It's you said it right. I'm gonna basically
just stepping on toes of everything you said. It's not just about is he
the best player in the NBA. If you want to have a discussion and
I want to get into certain players that I'm gonna not take over him anymore
consider but the discussion is fine. But like this is almost about actually being
revisionist or going back in hindsight and saying, you know what, like the
discussion really missed on him because this isn't a conversation that gain. It gained
validity now, but it never necessarily should have needed to. Like he's always
been right, even if you would take other players, like this has just
been a consensus top five, top three player for how long? Now?
Yeah, I think I think you do have to acknowledge that he has gotten
better. You know, he has improved in several ways, not the least
of which is defensively, but like he's just gotten all around better as a
scorer, as a as a two point you know, field will percentage guys,
you know, the three has kind of come and gone, as has
the volume, but he's he has just improved. So I guess, like
if I'm just playing Devil's advocate a little bit, because I do think we
need to look at the last several years and just kind of maybe revise what
we thought. But I also think you have to hold in your mind the
idea that he has improved. So it's not like, well, three years
ago, he was clearly the best player in the world, Like there's an
argument, but he's a better version of himself now, So it's just it's
easier to say he's the best now, but I do. I think the
sort of kind of related idea we have to start thinking about is almost everything
we said about Yokich, or not we necessarily but that has been said about
Yokich to devalue him or or kind of keep him from this top spot probably
does need to apply to Joel Embid now, right because he's now he's got
the MVP. Not to say he didn't deserve it. I'm fine with him
winning MVP this year. I think, you know, I thought it was
Yokich. It's close enough that I can't really complain, But now he's the
one that hasn't even made a conference finals and has had like significant playoff drop
off relative to regular season production. Some of that's injury, but at this
point, if it happens every year, it's just part of it. And
Yokich, I think, in contrast, does not see statistical drop off in
the postseason gen early speaking. So I think if you if you had those
opinions about Yokis, you really do need to transfer those to Himbid now fair
or not, but just for consistency's sake, I think we need to just
kind of basically, you know, keep as the kids would say, keep
the same energy, Like that's that's what needs to happen now, right,
because you can't say any of the stuff that used to be said about Yoki.
So he's just if he's not the best player in the world, he's
at least put to bed most of the knocks against him, if not all
of them so far. Do you think he needs I think the discourse and
again, I really do feel like for the most part, the basketball intelligensa
has warmed up to Yokis long before now, but there's still that just like
undercurrent of skepticism or attempts to invalidate what he's done or downplay it. Do
you think he I feel like we're already due for just like a generational one
eighty on the discourse, Like andreing the NBA Finals, I think we're going
to see like a generational one eighty on a lot of stances. Do you
think he actually need to even win the title for that to happen? And
like, are we gonna say if the Nuggets lost to the Celtics or Heat
in six seven games, whatever? Do you think that he's he I think
we both agree he has. But do you think there would still be those
questions, like they would both Look, he couldn't win the vinals, Like
he got there and he couldn't win. I think I think not probably not
for me personally, but I think if you're asking, like will that be
part of the discussion, like will a talking head bring that up? Yes,
because that's like a it's a controversial take and it's believable enough for a
certain segment of NBA fans. But like if he does win it, I
think then you got there's no there's no rational way to think about him other
than as probably right there with Janis, as like the best player of the
I don't know, the twenty fifteen and on or something something like that,
right, maybe a little bit later than that, or only like the best
player of this decade so far, And I don't know who even really else
would be in that conversation, like the Curry prime is starts quite a lot
earlier, and is you know, tailing off a little bit maybe, but
yeah, it's him and Jannis, right, Like those are the two guys
you would bring up as say the last five years, maybe a little bit
less than that, but if he gets this one, you'll be able to
say he's got the two MVPs. The only reason he didn't make a deep
playoff run before was because like his second and third best teammates were hurt last
year and not ready prior to that. So I just don't you run out
of stuff to say or other guys to nominate other than Janice, as you
know, even being in the same conversation, I think, and that's I
think was interesting now to me, And I don't know if we gave it
enough consideration, or maybe it was still clinging to the idea of well Kauai
and Kevin Duran, like, look at what they would be able to do
in the playoffs. It really is, I guess, Luca, but it
really just is Jannie or Yokich at this point. Right, if you're talking
about who's the best player in the world, I know that Jannis has been
consensus for a while, and if you default to him, I think that's
fine too, But when you're talking about people who are realistically challenging for that
spot, is like, what name do you come up with aside from Jannis
and Yokich at this point? Yeah, I think I just wanted to touch
on you know, you mentioned some of the skepticism around Yokis, which really
like feels irrational, just because if you're a numbers person, the numbers are
just like there's no argument. And now if you're well is, was he
the best player on the best team, I mean so far pretty much?
Yeah, of this year, certainly in the postseason. And I think a
lot of it stems from sometimes the best things he does look a little like
bullshit. And there was a perfect example in Game four last night, as
we're recording this on Tuesday, he hit another just absurd. Maybe there were
two ridiculous shot clock winding down Sambor shuffle like wrong foot did step back three
over Anthony Davis. That seems like, well that was lucky, right,
Like that's a garbage shot, Like that's just a prayer. Except like he's
made several of those in the playoffs. And it's just the things that he
does look awkward and difficult, and it's just he does them successfully often enough
to now where you say, no, no, no, that's just extreme
skill. It just doesn't look the same as Jannis taking three steps from half
court and dunking over four guys, like that's we understand that, Like that's
something that if you're an NBA fan for a long time, you recognize as
dominance or like overwhelming skill. Yokich is just different, and it it bumps
you a little bit because it looks unorthodox or weird or unathletic even sometimes.
And I think a lot of the skepticism is just the aesthetics are weird,
like they don't look the same as what dominance is in our you know,
in our minds, which is I guess that I get it. But it's
also weird because when you're watching it happen, it is so dominant, right,
happens so often or just even something simple where it's like you can't he's
the ultimate, just putting you in this dilemma if you decide to actually double
him because of what he does as a passer and uses those angles and how
like the reads he's making in the face he's making, the angles he's working.
And you watch this and I agree that it's you know, eccentric or
a different abnormal relative to conventional forms of dominance, but it's still dominant when
you're watching it. It was never just a numbers like, it was never
just then like if you were watching Nicole Yokich, i don't know how you
would come away with anything other than this is the one of the two or
three most dominant offensive players in the league, but for the past like three
four years or whatever. And I guess that's what's always kind of I thought
that there've been really intelligent, thorough discussions on the defense and like the discrepancy
between the metrics and what you're actually watching. But it's just the way that
people were just so quick to write off stuff that he And again I'm not
painting with a broad brush and saying everyone did this. They were twenty of
people that voted. He won two MVPs. So I don't think this is
some underdog story in the main. I mean, he's an underdog in the
sense like look where he was drafted, But this isn't like Nicole Yokers came
out of nowhere, even though I do think it kind of feels like some
people, or I don't know if they're more casual fans or if it's like
supernational media are like shell shocked by what he's done during these playoffs a little
bit still, and that is surprising too. I'm surprised by their surprise,
is by anyone surprise at this point is basically what I'm getting at. Yeah,
no, I mean, I don't have a lot else to say on
him. I do think I've I think, so, just to kind of
broaden this a little bit, we've been quick to and the playoffs do this
because we all agree that, well, the playoffs are where you really learn
about players and stuff. Like we crowned Devin Booker, We've crowned Jason Tatum
and seen them both fail in different ways, like some very conspicuously in Tatum's
case, and like, you know, Butler I think probably has been properly
crowned as just way better than people give him credit for it. I don't
feel like there's a danger of you know, prisoner of the moment thinking or
jumping to a conclusion based on a one playoff series or anything with Yokich just
because of the longer track record. Like it's all I would think of it
this way. He's just confirming what we kind of suspected as opposed to,
oh, this is some leap, and it's I think it's sustainable. You
know, It's not that it's just oh no, he is this good,
and it's like a much more sort of reserved, settled kind of feeling as
opposed to when you know, just name the young player du jour that we
think has finally leveled up. It's it's not it's not the same thing.
It's a different feeling for him. And look, his Conference finals numbers were
even, and I know Murray was on one as a score, which is
and look, we'll eventually talk about the finals and the Nuggets when they actually
have an opponent, which could happen after right, But Yokich just I mean
twenty seven point eight points, eleven point and assists, fourteen point five rebounds,
one point three steals, one point three blocks, forty seven point one
percent on threes. Just monster series and Jamal Murray. Some people thought he
should have gotten the Western Conference Finals MVP. I disagree, just because there
were still the I mean, we felt it even in kind of Game four,
his pieces and valleys required drama. Means sometimes I know he's baling in
the near infection for part of the series, but they're just such highs and
lows within some of his best games, and Yokich is the dominance is more
steadying, even when he might not be having his most efficient performances, which
you're still by most measures hyper efficient, and I'm excited for this team in
large part because I picked them to win the title, and I really would
love to do one of those victory laps. Think about how close because I
picked the Suns during their first year together with CP three and they made it
for the finals. If I went on a run where I had like I've
had the Sun's winning and a Nuggets winning, I would be ro already barely
borderline unlistenable when I'm on the podcast, So imagine how insufferable we'd beat.
Couldn't have done anything with you. I'm with you, though, I think
we're all in agreement that if you don't think NICOLEA. Yokich is the best
player in the league, I might be there. I've been a Yannis guy.
I think I'm there because I do believe there's more limitations that Jannis poses
when you're building out a team, and we were always able to say that
about Yokis, but because Jannis had won it higher levels and because he had
that defensive edge, And now I'm just like, you put the right personnel
around Yokich, and I know it's taken a very specific set of personnel to
get here. Guess what like the Nuggets. I know that they could play
like seven or eight guys, like you have your six trustworthy guys, like
and then you get into the Jeff Greens and the Christian Brown's, like it's
the maybe maybe not tonight guys. You know, so it's I wouldn't say
it was easy, but like, look at the blends of skill sets that
they've been just thrown in there, and a lot of it's okay, Well,
Aaron Gordon, give you the necessary three point volume. We're like,
we're gonna have to use Bruce Brown differently than the Brooklyn Nets were able to
use Bruce Brown. We're gonna have to navigate a night where Michael Porter Junior
is not shooting as well, which, holy crap, Michael Porter Junior the
rebounding in defense just like making. I mean, I don't even know if
this is like his ninetieth percentile outcome either as just and so like there's a
chance that he still gets better. This team, We're gonna have a lot
more to say about them. I'm very see who they faced the finals,
and let's get to that very quickly. Since a lot a lot of this
could be outdated, I'll put it up immediately in audio form, we have
Celtics Heat Game four. I don't I just want to know your overarching thoughts
on this series so far. I we got accused of being way too high
on the Celtics in our primer. I you know, the haters were right.
Apparently, I don't really know what to say, like they're on the
verge of a sweep. They're on the verge of a sweep. I think,
first of all, the Heat just kind of complicate everything because they're so
difficult to judge and evaluate without falling into cliches. I think for the Celtics,
like I guess, the thought that I've been having is more forward looking
because it's it's we're recording, it's three zero, it's done, and you
know, if it doesn't happen tonight, it all happen soon. The Heat
are going to advance, and I just have been thinking in terms of like,
well, what do you what do you do now? Because I don't
think the right answer is you break up Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum unless you
just it's the financial stuff. You don't want to pay Jaylen Brown what he's
gonna cost on his next deal. Because Tatum, I think is you just
that's not a player you let go. I don't care that he's had bad
fourth quarters and bad games. He's had great games and he's still really young,
And just that's a guy I'm fine with as my cornerstone. But I
also think about like they're one of the last four teams standing, they've been
to the finals, they've had a ton of playoff runs. You'd be really
hard pressed to find the moves that would certainly get you back to this level.
You know, if you're gonna make a bunch of changes, you know,
certainly significant ones to their main players, like good luck, good luck
getting a team that has this ceiling, right, So like that makes it
naturally Well what about the coach? And there's a lot of noise around Joe
Missoula, And I think some of it's probably warranted. Just a four year
deal, right and extend three of those are guaranteed? Are they're really going
to get Maybe he's not making as much as Judoka was, but like a
coach with three year years left at his deal, you're really getting rid of
him. Yeah, But I mean if the alternative is whatever other the alternatives
are, they're all more drastic than just getting rid of the coach that you
probably you never intended to be the head coach this year anyway, you know
you can. The four year deal was kind of kind of wild. But
yeah, I think whatever else you do will be more questionable than moving on
from the coach that you know, everybody's complained all year about. He doesn't
call timeouts and I don't really care about that, but some of the tactical
stuff, some of just the hate we have we have to go here.
I hate this, we have to go here. Everybody I think was correct
that said the Celtics you know, quit and that they've lacked fight, and
you know, just something feels wrong, and it's just it feels like maybe
they we we can't go any farther without just completely speculating, but it seems
like it's motivational. It seems like maybe they don't trust what they're doing.
It seems like maybe they're frustrated or just don't buy in, you know,
And so like I think, probably that's got to go on Missoula, because
unless stuff comes out about you know, player relationships and things just aren't working
well. But again, like I just it's it's a tough spot to be
in because I think the knee jerk reaction, like the way that this series
has gone just is the type of thing that spurs teams to do drastic stuff.
And I just don't know if that's like if you're just talking about maximizing
or trying to make like the right almost like statistical decision or like you can't
think of the right way to phrase it, but the odds of you improving
on what the Celtics are right now by making a lot of personnel changes are
pretty low. So I just don't know. I don't know how how in
I am on the idea of let's like, let's really tear this thing apart,
and I think, look, it's and when you're looking at this series
specifically, the opponent's points off turnovers fertually the same. The Celtics have won
the points in the paint battle, they've won the second chance points battle and
where the real and they've won the transition points battle. They're plus fourteen in
transition for the series and second chance points, which means that they have missed
more shots like they're plus seventeen like a lot of where they've lost this game
this series. Look the heat, they're shooting like sixty percent on wide open
series, like their shooters have gotten really hot. But while they were questions
about those shooters in the regular season, it was all like, oh,
well, Kyle Howry isn't performing up to stuff and Strus is having a down
year. The fact that those guys are now hitting shots, and I still
will argue that Duncan Robinson putting the ball on the floor came out of nowhere
For me. I must not have watched the heat closely enough. But they've
lost it from three because they're shooting thirty two point six percent on wide open
threes. And I think for the series, I should have had this queued
up to see how many more three like Miami is making like more than four
threes a game on average than the Celtics, and they are. They've made
thirteen more three, so plus thirty nine from beyond the arc for the series.
That's a big difference when you're looking at especially how close those first two
games right. And I will say what I think has been the two things
that have stood out is Boston and this has always been the case with them.
If they can't get into their early offense, it does feel like it's
a mess, and a lot of them getting into their early offense is hey,
we need to get stops and they have not been able to get It
feels like they haven't been able to get stops adequately enough against Miami in the
half court. Miami has a one oh six point three offensive rating and the
half court, which is monstrous for a half court offensive rating in this series.
So and that's monstrous overall of ranked first in the regular season by like
light years. Yeah, and when you look at what's happening where they're letting
Duncan Robinson get buy them off the dribble, it just doesn't make any sense.
And it speaks to I know, and Joe Missoul has been hard on
himself by attributing this to a lack of preparedness on his part, and pardon
me, does appreciate whenever you know, people are gonna troll him. And
I've seen a lot of jokes about how he uses timeouts and I laugh at
them because jokes are funny. But at some point it's like, I'm not
going to criticize, and they're saying, well, you know, Judoka held
these guys accountable in the media, and that was the better way to go.
I mean, you want to quibble over that. At some point they're
like, you need to hold the players responsible. And I think it was
Jalen Brown or Tatum said this after Game three, like he's not They said,
he's not out there bricking shots and so like, I just can't.
I don't know how much blame to ascribe to MISSOULI here. This team just
like is hitting its nay dear at at the worst possible time. I will
to actually respond to your point. That's the dilemma they face. And I
think people have tried to oversimplify this where I saw a lot of people think
the Celtics should break up or make up draft to train change because they've been
together for so long, whereas other people like okay, well, Jayson Tatum
and Jalen Brown are still so young, why would you do that? And
I see both sides of the argument. You're about to Jayson Tatum next summer
is gonna be eligible, not this summer. Next Sumer's gonna be eligible to
sign a three hundred plus million dollar extension. Jalen Brown's eligible to sign a
two hundred ninety five million dollar extension this summer. That's a big financial commitment
to make to this course, so you need to be sure. But I
think you could also argue that those guys who are more valuable if you need
to trade them on those deals and ice CU towards you is I don't know
how you get substantially better on one end of the floor, and it would
have to be I think it would probably be if you're looking at this team,
unless you're that concerned about the aging curve of Al Horford and the health
of Robert Williams. The third it's you probably want an upgrade at the point
guard spot where it's like kind of it's fine that you have Marcus Smart and
Jayson Tatum and Jalon Brown and Malcolm Brogdon and Derek White, but a lot
of those guys are either secondary playmakers connective passers where you need a you know,
I if Trey Young or Damian Lillard were to become available, if you
wanted to go nuclear, should the Celtics be involved in those discussions? And
I get the impetus to say yes, But I'm also just like, I
do understand what you just said and how other people mean when they're saying okay,
well, like Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown are still so young and his
team is still so talented. Wouldn't it make more sense to try and futs
and fiddle on the margins than it would to go that seismic route. And
if I don't think, I'll say, is this becomes less of an issue
of Jalen Brown makes the decision for them. If he decides I'm not going
to sign my supermax this year, you have to trade him. You can't
let him go into unrestricted free agency if he turns down the Supermax. No,
I don't think so. I'm just the point guard point is well taken.
I think when I so, if the criticism of the Celtics is that,
and I guess we have to start on offense, but we probably shouldn't
overlook the fact that this is primarily a defensive team that is not guarding.
And that's that's an issue. The worst version of the Celtics the ball stops.
Like we've I feel like I at least have mentioned this every time we
talk about them, Like the when it goes bad for Boston, the ball
stops. The turnovers start the ball. The ball maybe swings around the perimeter,
but it doesn't touch the paint first, and the Heat have been like
there was did you see that thing about somebody's screen caps and Eric's bolstro locker
room moment where they had on the screen behind him. Their points per play
on paint touches versus non paint touches and it's like one point six eight to
one point oh something, and it's just like, oh, yeah, that's
why the Heat have played better offense is they're just getting into the paint before
they start the churn, basically, and the Celtics don't do that as effectively,
especially in those really ugly stretches where they just look like they can't figure
out how to play offense. So I think you probably want somebody that can
just get into the paint and start the machine moving like the Heat seemed to
have. Everyone on the roster seems to be able to by their guy and
get into the lane and you know, at least draw help or put the
defense in rotation. It's a really terrible free agent market for point guards.
Boston doesn't have the money to sign one. You're talking about trades, so
yeah, but that's where it starts. And then after that, I don't
really know what you do. This is the kind of series that makes you
reevaluate everything and like frankly like one positionals they made the finals last year,
Like they like one position with the same team minus Malcolm Brown, Like there's
just like the positional switch or you know, upgrading a little bit. I
don't know how much it matters. The more I think about it and talk
about it, the more it seems like a coaching thing, whether it's motivational
or tactical. Like there's enough talent on this roster like one through eight,
probably seven maybe to to not be facing the possibility of a sweep that like
you know, there might be minor injuries, but it's not like they're missing
Jalen Brown or they're it's not like they're I mean, some m'd argue the
Celtics in this series would be doing better if Jalen Brown were't playing because he's
be so bad. But like, you know, there's not the heat,
don't have Tyler hero like right like that for a team that our biggest questions
about them were offensively, they lose probably their second best shot creator after Jimmy
Butler, and it just doesn't matter. So the Celtics aren't in that position.
So I don't have a lot to add other than I just don't think
it's personnel. You know, I don't think it is. I guess my
final question on the Celtics because we need to talk about the Bute, do
you think that the coaching market as it stands right now as we're recording this
makes it more appealing to say or easier to make the decision of like,
yeah, we shouldn't have given Missoula this extension, or we don't think he's
the right fit. We think he's going to be a talented, up and
coming coach, but it's just not what we need right now. Is it
easier to make that call knowing that you could just bring back doc Rivers?
That makes men at least I know you're listening to me. I wanted to
well, I was like, wait, did he say Doccer because I was
thinking, oh, yeah, like Nurse or even Buddenholder or like Frank Vogel
could probably, But so do you think it makes it? Though you mentioned
the guys that are out there, do you think it's like even ty Luke
maybe become available. Have all that those rumblings in LA right now? It
has to there's like a kind of a like an embarrassment of like coaches that
you know, not only that have that seem like they'd be upgrades from an
experience standpoint, but guys that have like one titles and been to finals and
you know, I just if you want to knock, but there there,
we know the knocks on all these guys. They got fired for reasons,
I guess, But like, I just I find it hard to believe that
Budden Buddenholder, for example, like would at least like have more of an
offensive system that wouldn't just fall apart. Like that's you know, they're probably
Milwaukee fans that are like saying, oh, actually that's not so much true,
but or Nurse would it least try some weird different stuff. I just
you know, coaching is the easiest thing to change, and there's no guarantee
it'll be better, But I just have a hard time imagining it would be
any worse if if they've made a change, and there are good options out
there, for sure, Kenny Atkinson even I like, he's probably gonna get
hired before the Celtics are, you know, really starting their search. But
there's there's tons of options. There's I find an interesting that people don't think
he can coach a good team. By the way, when it comes to
Kenny Atkinson, I think Brooklyn was a He's known as a developmental coach because
of what he did in Atlanta and also Brooklyn, but he was dealt.
He wasn't given a chance and that was the ancestor the Heat, though I
don't really know, They're just I want to make this clear, we were
wrong about the Heat. I think the Heat were wrong about the Heat.
If you pulled them internally, everyone aside, I think from Jimmy Butler would
not have expected. I don't even know what Jimmy Butler expected this. There
are reports coming out that they we're disenchanted by Kyle Lowry entering the playoffs,
and now he just comes in and he's just super important to what they're doing
defensively connector on offense. They're getting their supporting cast to hit their looks,
and I mean, I can't like I'm Caleb Martin has been fantastic for much
of the postseason. The Duncan Robin Robinson renaissance we already mentioned, been incredible.
Max Shrus He's had some peaks and valleys here, but he's been huge
form Gabe Vincent will go through these streaks where just like the shot selection feels
putrid, but they almost need him to take those shots because one sometimes they
go in and too they put like a different sort of pressure on the defense.
Bam has been I feel like that's kind of flown under the radars.
Yeah, he's not having like eighty field goal attemts every single game, but
he's been super aggressive for like long pockets of time offensively, and he's just
like this defensive Like I don't even know what the word is, just absolute
monster they are. I don't I mean, like even having Kevin love and
like being able to push that button. I don't know that I can wrap
my head around the Heat, and I wanted to know if you have any
overarching thoughts on them, But I also wanted to Someone asked me this when
I went on a podcast the other day. Do you see teams trying to
replicate what the Heat have done? And my answer was just like, I
don't think any team can count on on earthing as many hidden gems, that
this is not a replicable model because it's so unique, and I would argue
so fragile that I don't even think the Heat. We go to the off
season, I think they win the title, They're still gonna be opportunistic when
it comes to making like I don't want to get into the roster changes,
but I don't not that I don't view I guess I'm saying I don't view
this as sustainable. But this is such a it's such a shock, and
there's definitely an element of sustainability to it because like we've seen the Heat do
this before with this they went to the Eastern Conference finals last year largely with
this same group. But I will say outside of Miami, this is not
something whenever we talk about champions or finals like finals participants, it's yeah,
teams are gonna be on the lookout to do the like you can't do what
the Heat are doing. You just can't. No, I mean, and
you don't even need to like dig that deeply into that statement to validate it,
because they're the eighth. They're an eighth seed, Like they lost the
first playing game. It's just like it's the improbability of where they are is
so great that like trying to do whatever it is that they've done is like
that's stupid, because what's that that's going to get you the eighth seed if
you're lucky, and you might squeak into the playoffs. And then basically,
if you're saying let's replicate what the Heat are doing, you're saying, let's
have every single relevant player who has contributed just play better than they did at
any point during the year, Like everyone a good novel concept. Yeah,
it's like, oh, let's just you know, yeah, it's like every
the joke on Twitter is always like, okay, well let's talk adjustments after
this playoff loss, and it's like, well, there's always the play better
adjustment, right, or like shoot better adjustment, the Heat like have like
that's what this is. They've all just played better now. That detracts from
certainly Eric's bolstra. I think I think one thing will take away from these
playoffs. One is that we can't make jokes about like you can't make side
eyes that heat culture anymore as like a thing, because it's clearly a thing,
and it's like that's a real thing. It's not like, oh,
you can't roll your eyes. And the other thing will be that Eric Spoelstra
is the best coach in the league, right, Like, you can't take
an eight seed this deep and have the previous track record that he does,
and then just like discuss anyone else in that position, and I think,
so, yeah, everyone play better. Can't replicate that and then have probably
the best coach in the league hard to replicate that. I think like the
thing that struck me in every series so far, and the Heat haven't been
perfect, but like it always seems like they their adjustments are proactive and the
things that they change cause trouble for the other team, as opposed to being
in the position where you're thinking, well, how are the Heat going to
deal with this? It's always like, well, they're fine, and then
now the other team has to figure out what to do when the offense installed.
But now bam Adebayo is bringing the ball up and initiating the offense,
what do we do with that? And and like, yeah, all of
that looks better when Caleb Martin can't miss and Gabe Vincent is playing with the
confidence of like an All NBA player, And same with Struss, Duncan,
Duncan Robinson like the fact that he was out of the rotation and basically a
pariah because he signed that big contract after a great year, and it maybe
more more than one great year. But then they're just like not playing and
now he's in like integral part of how they're succeeding offensively against theoretically a really
good defense if they played multiple good defenses. That's like talk about not replicable
having a guy basically you lose. Usually you lose that guy. We joked
about D'Angelo Russell, but like usually it's you don't see the guy relegated to
like you don't play anymore, and then he's called on in the playoffs and
is like somehow a better, ver version of the best version of himself.
He's not just a spot shooter or a movement shooter, right, Like I've
just never seeing him put the ball on the floor so often as I have.
And it's not just the series, by the way, No, it's
it's still been the whole point. It's when he's played, he's been he's
been better than the best version of himself. So yeah, you can't replicate
this other than to say, like maybe you should. Maybe we should emphasize
continuity. Maybe we should emphasize like really demanding conditioning standards which the heat have.
Maybe we should emphasize whatever it is Miami's got going where nobody seems to
care like who gets the credit or who it's it's it's just like we're like
shoveling cliches on because like statistically, all we can point to is like,
yeah, they're making all their shots and they're playing great defense on a per
possession basis, and like yeah, okay, cool. Like if you're going
to replicate stuff, I guess it's gotta be the hashtag heat culture stuff,
which like doesn't appeal to every type of player, by the way, Like
there are a lot of guys that I think probably don't want to play in
Miami because it's hard or it's demanding. You've got to pass all these conditioning
tests and all you know, you hear all the stories about their offseason stuff
and how just it's harder. Maybe harder is better. I don't know,
is that the takeaway we've gone soft as a society. We should all aspire
to kill ourselves in practice and workouts like the heat too. I don't know.
I don't know. Nobody has an answer, Dan, Like nobody has
an answer. It could just be Jimmy Baller and Eriks boolstro exist. Yeah,
yeah, they're just like two of a kind. And that's all it
is. You can't have them, and if you don't have them, this
can't happen for your team. I don't know. That's the other thing they've
done. It's just like the adjustments they're able to make on the fly,
And you've kind of pointed to that, and Jared Weiss of the Athletic could
point this out too, like they're willing to even just they will put defenses
where they want them by butchering their own spacing, like to just make sure
the defenders they want are at certain spots on the floor. It's it's wild.
The question that I do think is cropped up as a result of this,
and I was curious what your thought on it was, do you think
that what the heat are doing or maybe even what we've seen by them large
during these playoffs, because we did just see a set the Lakers as a
seven seed make the conference finals in the second round was six verse seven.
Has it diminished the meaning of the regular season even further these these playoff results
in your opinion, I mean, maybe a little bit, because now you've
got well the play in first of all, it's it's like the plan is
never going away now, not that it was, but I think it does
make it, you know, a little more appealing. So maybe this leads
to more load management, which would be not great because if you just believe
that you have the team that's good enough at full strength to make a deep
run, you don't really care where you get into the playoffs. I think
you have to view it in conjunction with like, well, Denver's in number
one seed, and I think we both agree that they're going to be favored
in the finals, and so like, yeah, the seeding stuff still matters,
but certainly if you have a certain kind of team, maybe you care
even less about it's really pushed for the fifth seed or like or just what
like, you know, the playoffs are you just never know what version of
a top seed you're gonna see it. Just you might as well just focus
on getting in. I guess. So I think probably probably it does devalue
the regular season a little bit more, which is like that's a big problem
as it is. I don't know, I think maybe that's not great if
that if that has that effect, Yeah, I don't know. I don't
know. Do you think it's I mean, it kind of has to,
doesn't it. I kind of skew. No, because I think you look
at it the Heat specifically, like we're all these or even look at the
Lakers, like they were a completely different team by the end of the regular
season because of yeah, there were some injuries, but also just like they
overhauled their team at the deadline, and the case of the Heat, like
they had a bunch of guys missed time again this year, or they had
guys going through slumps. It's not like, hey, they decide we're just
gonna we're gonna shelve Duncan Robinson until the playoffs and that's when we'll dust him
off and we're gonna save him until then. And even just you look at
sort of the just the landscape where it does feel like injuries factor into it
as well. For I mean, like the Sixers, like they had missed
time, James Harden had missed time this year, so like even I don't
know, like I guess in the West, it's more wild because we saw
the six and the seventh seeded Lakers and Warriors get to the semifinals. Like
even the Warriors, okay, their personnel was by and Mars the same,
but they dealt with the punch at the beginning of the season and they never
really got any traction, and they have this championship pedigree, so it's not
shocking that they would beat the Kings when it took seven games to get there.
And I just I guess if you want to say the regular season means
less in the sense that it feels like we're going to see the best product
for each team on a lower frequency rate, I would probably agree. I
don't know if that makes the regular season less meaningful because can the Heat just
simply choose to enter as the seven have the seventh best record and then just
make the finals. That's not a position that you active you want to put
yourself in. Yeah, it's not like the Heat weren't trying to win during
the year. It's just that whatever they were trying didn't work as well.
Like that's yeah, that goes back to the like replicability of what they're doing.
There's just like, this is not a model that you want to follow.
Probably, yeah, I don't know, Like we probably don't need to
jump all the way ahead to the Denver Miami matchup, partly because I'm just
not ready to think about that yet. But get ready for me recording that
sometime this week. I think, I know, I think so, I
think that's likely. Yeah, I don't know. I do think. Well,
the other Miami thing that's going to be interesting is like how expensive or
how much are they willing to pay to keep this this team together? And
do they like do they view Gabe Vincent and Max Strus as like fungible because
they've got bird rights on both, But they could just say like, yeah,
we'll just find the next, you know, versions of these guys and
we can let them go get paid ten x what they're making now someplace else.
I like, I don't know, maybe that's maybe that's like, do
we they just won't go out and find a Max Strews in the G League?
They're just like do well? Maybe I mean is that the takeaway is
clearly the Heat have like great, they've scout better than everybody, and they
see stuff in players that nobody else does and they develop it. Like maybe
that's where the real replicability of this thing is, is you just spend more
money or get better people at those types of things, because like you can't.
Just the Strus, Struwson Vincent in particular are just like I can't like
anyone could have had both of those guys for you know, years, just
didn't happen. I don't know if they just I think they just got better.
The heat made them better. That's what happened. The two other things
we want to ask you about the Bucks coaching search really quickly. It seems
like they've narrowed it down to Nick Nurse, Kenny Atkinson, or Adrian Griffin.
Any thoughts on that. Nurse is kind of interesting most the most interesting
because the other guys are mainly career assistance with I guess you know Atkinson we've
already meant does the NETS coach, But I would be curious to see what
Nurse would do with Janie and with like kind of a you know, if
it's an unusual setup where they've been defined by a very specific style both on
offense and defense under Buddenholzer. So like, I think, if if you're
of the opinion that Milwaukee has the talent to win a title, it just
needs to be kind of tweaked a little bit. I think Nurse is like,
Nurse is the guy I would be just most curious to see what a
Bucks team would look like under him, because I don't feel like the other
guys would be as likely to make significant changes, but you know, maybe
it's hard to say because they're they're a little bit less, lesser known commodities.
But nurses urs is the most interesting, right just because I mean he
might also just not be a good coach. We don't know, Like he
got fired, so who can say I would be I kind of like Kenny
Atkinson to be the most interesting one. Actually, Andrean griff is the most
interesting one because with making a hiring of like this first time guy, no
idea, and so yeah, he's been part of these head coaching searches in
the past, Like he's been prominently linked to a bunch of different jobs I
think over the past like three or four years or so. And I think
he was even linked to the didn't he get an interview for the Raptors one
right now? Too? So I just and he's been an assistant with them
since what twenty and eighteen, I think, so he was, like,
but does it make the risk inherently less because he has such an extensive track
record as an assistant and he was an assistant on the championship team and in
Toronto. That's objectively the most interesting because I do think there's a look people
know more, way more about what coaching than I'm ever gonna learn. But
there is a level of it's easier to justify hiring the more established flash year
name when you're at the level that the Bucks are, which is, despite
what Jannis might say at the end of each season like a pretty much championship
or bust for them, it's certainly it's more than you know, part of
the journey, like you want to make it out of the first round if
you're malwake like they're at that point. The hiring an assistant to replace the
departed head coach kind of a double edged sword, right, Like it could
go either way, because in theory, this is a person that's in position
to know exactly what did not work, but it's also someone that probably ideologically
is somewhat aligned with the guy that just got fired, So it's hard to
know like which way that's gonna cut. And always players always like, you
know, the assistance more just because they're never they're generally the good cops,
So like, oh, you always hear that players like support the hiring of
the you know, an in house assistant. It's just because like they're familiar,
and probably that's not been the guy that said you're getting benched or is
killing you in film sessions or whatever like that's it's tricky. I don't know.
I don't know which way that cuts I eat, but I would be
interested, I guess, to see any of them there. Kenny Atkinson is
the one that I feel like might be the most inventive for them on offense,
or maybe not inventive, because Nick Nurse is known as this tactician,
but like he also the Raptors had talent, and like they weren't able to
win a whole bunch of games this year, and so I'm just yeah,
and also I know a lot of people. One of the complaints was that
Bud wouldn't play some of the most prominent players enough, and then Nick Nurse
might skew all the way to the other end of the spectrum, where if
the Bucks don't materially change their depth or mean, we talk about Giannis averaging
like thirty nine minutes the game yet year or something, which probably skews too
far towards that extreme ende of the spectrum. I would be most fascinated by
the Kenny Atkinson higher though, because I think that would bring just knowing his
offensive tenants like from Brooklyn and then spending so much time with the Warriors.
Now, I think he could have. And maybe I'm just undervaluing nurse here
and don't know enough about Griffin. It's all very possible. I think he
might have the most visible influence on how the Bucks play and operate. Wasn't
he under Budenholzer in Atlanta? Did I imagine that? I can't remember Atlanta?
Was that during the Buddenholser error? I don't know. I don't know,
because like Quinn Snyder was there too, right, wasn't he so?
I want yeah, I think it was. So maybe you run into like
he's just gonna come in and have a little bit too much Coach Budd in
him. I think Atkinson, though, probably feels the safest. You were
right by the way he was there. He was he crossed over with the
Booden. Thank you. I was trying to vamp while you looked that up.
I guess I could have done that. I don't know. Yeah,
he feels the safest now. But although now I'm concerned, I've talked myself
into being concerned about Atkinson just basically doing but think about how long ago that
was. That was like yeah, yea, but yeah, no, I
guess what, Bucks, there's no good coach. Just bring Buddenholzer back.
That's probably what the takeaway should be. I'm are you surprised that Monty Williams
hasn't been heavy like that he's not one of the finalists for this gig?
Yeah, I don't. Yeah, actually, I'm I don't know what to
think about him, because I think we both agree that he was maybe one
of the more surprising firings, so he would think that he would be pretty
close at the top of the list for almost everybody. I wonder if maybe
he's not looking to get back into coaching right away just because his name.
Yeah, like you put his name next to some of the assistants that are
getting considered. It's kind of like, I mean, Monty Williams has been
coaching the year twice, right, and like has been to the finals recently.
Is one a bunch of games like it seems like, and it seems
to be very highly respected. Although again, like we said when he got
fired, if Kevin Durant and Devin Booker had absolutely wanted him back, he
would probably still be there, so who knows right? And I'm sure that
he wouldn't use DeAndre Aden as a reference for no, no, no,
do not call. He's on the do not call list. The Lakers,
who we talk about shockingly little on this podcast. You ever realize that we
talk about it? Should that be like our brand, like we're the pocket
natural pockets that doesn't ever talk about the Lakers, very little Lakers. A
lot to unpack. I do want to start with and I did text you
about this just now while we were recording. It might be germane to our
time crunch here, but Lebron sort of mentioning that he has a lot to
figure out, hinting at the idea that oh he could retire. I likened
it too. I want to get your tho. This is my analogy.
You've run twenty marathons, trained and run twenty marathons one per year. Immediately
after crossing the finished line of number twenty, immediately you're asked whether you are
going to run next year's and when you're going to start training for it.
Now you're exhausted. Depending on how you finished, you're blinded by euphoria or
disappointment or something in maybe indifference. I would say that your answer could stand
to be a little cryptic or be dripping with an unintended sense of finality,
and that's what I sort of chalk this up to, or could just be
a scare tactic. I'm just curious as to what where land on the Lebron's
hanging. And look, it was the report from Bleacher Reports Chris Haynes that
Lebron is gonna consider retirement. Yeah, so this is not like a oh,
Lebron misspoke, This is sourced reporting that Lebron is apparently going to consider
retirements offseason. What do you make about Yeah, I mean I would add
to your analogy that you're also way you're way past the age that anyone else
has voluntarily continued to run marathons, Like you shouldn't even have run this one,
probably just based on you know, what normal people do. So yeah,
no, that is a great way to frame it. That was my
very first well, because I'm a relentless cynic, my very first thought was
like, well, he's found a way to dominate the news cycle for a
few days. Again, like this is you know, being in the being
in the spotlight is a good thing for financially and just for attention purposes and
whatever. I've backed off that a little bit, but I do think it's
like the worst time to ask. To your point, it's the worst time
to ask somebody like what their intentions are? You know. I think you
get some version of this. Sometimes you get the guy that says, not
not specific to are you gonna play next year, but to like, you
know what, what's the plan? How do you feel? It's like,
get right back to it, you know, just work hard in the offseason,
start tomorrow, you know. Do you get that sometimes? But most
of the time, everybody's just like I need a break. I'm gonna take
some time off and then you know, I'll get back to basketball when I
get back to it. This is just an extreme version of that. I
think, like if he wouldn't it be more surprising if he had said,
like, you know, I feel great. Uh, this was not difficult.
I didn't play hurt for my three months. My body everything hurts.
I'm thirty eight, Like I have more mileage than anyone. This year,
I finished scoring more points than anyone's ever scored. Like, but I just
want, you know, I want more. Like of course, he's just
at the end of his rope. He's tired. Like, you know,
if he hadn't said if he had, if he had unequivocally said ready to
get back at it, like that would be way weirder like that. I
couldn't imagine someone saying that he was gotten drug tested on the spot if he
said that after playing basically all forty eight minutes. I know, we had
that like five second rest at the end of the first half of Game four,
and he dropped forty points fifty and twenty five, shooting nine assists,
and it still wasn't enough. You have to like be sitting there like what
the fuck? Yeah, what do I gotta do? I mean, like,
I think there was another quote either yesterday or today about you know,
I think maybe it was in the hands piece, about something the effect of
like because I'm still better than ninety to ninety five percent of players in the
league, which is basically true. So like he'll be back, right,
I mean, like he signed to go ahead, not that it matters to
him, You're probably gonna say the same thing, but he's like got forty
six point seven million coming next year and another fifty and twenty four twenty five
if he wants it like he doesn't need money anymore, but like that's like
one hundred ish million dollars that is just there, and it's to like to
do a thing you like to do. Anyway, I think I was I
was talking to somebody about this yesterday. Actually, it really just just it
comes down to, like what level of play is he comfortable like displaying to
the world, you know, like how how how interested is he in continuing
to play if he's like the fiftieth best player in the league or something like
that. Like I can understand where if he feels like that's where he is,
like maybe you don't want the Jordan Wizards like kind of look towards the
end, but he's an All NBA level player still, and like he can
be the second best player on a contender, like that's what he sometimes he
was the best player on a contender this year. They were one of the
final four teams. Like, you know, I think he's got at least
a couple more years of you know, being in consideration for an All NBA
spot, So it's hard to imagine that he's at that. Like that's the
reason, like he's you're not embarrassing himself, but like doesn't want to tarnish
the legacy that he's made by like kind of limping to the finish. He's
that's that's not that's not where we are yet. No, and I would
agree with you there. My favorite one is that said he had to play
with DeAngelo Russell and it drove him into retirement. Uh, I want to
ask about Russell, like, we don't need to do the full post mortem,
but like he did, but I wanted to wrap up on the Lebron
stuff. Is I like the idea. Actually I found this funny is that
people said he didn't want Mellow to have his day like Carmelo Anthony retires and
he didn't want Melody and also just he couldn't deal like he needed to make
sure that he was going to be a headline for the next few days as
we're getting ready for Nuggets heat. But I also like the idea of it
being in This progresses into the larger discussion of Deanzel Russell of their own free
agents, that he wants to continue to apply pressure to the organization to make
upgrades rather than say, okay, well you trade a first round pick and
you could bring everybody back. And I find it hysterical that favorable reporting for
the Lakers is they're gonna do anything they can to bring back Ruby, hatch
Moore and Austin Reeves when it's the only thing they need to do is match
whatever contract to offer. Those guys perceive right as literally all they need to
do so, And I mean, I think if I had to vote,
the money certainly matters, but I would think that this is more of a
scare tactic or a chess move on the bronze part. And oh and by
the way, we didn't mention this playing on like one foot basically, and
so he's probably confronting the idea of do I need surgery that's gonna Could he
miss a bunch of time next season? Like that might also factor into this
too. I think I think the main reason is like he felt like shit
like after that game because he gave everything he had and this season was hard
and the Lakers did not win a lot. There's a tough regular season.
He got hurt again, Like that's that's what this was, but more so
than the you know, the news cycle domination and whatever else. But yeah,
it's just like wrong time to ask ask ask him something like that.
So Hachemer and Reeves have to be back, right, whatever it costs,
they have to bring both the The most they can offer Reeves is fifty one
million over four or something like that, but they can match up to whatever
you can get, which is into the like what team is going to poison
pill him? Maybe Utah are Santo? Would you Tare san Antonio even do
that? I think it would be stupid just because you know they're gonna match.
I guess maybe if you want to stick it to the Lakers, but
I mean, actually, if you know they're gonna match, I'm inclined to
do it. Well, but it's like you're tying up your resources a little
bit too, right, Like it's not just you know, I guess maybe
not. I don't know that he has to be back. Reeves has to
be back. You can't like if if if if any of Lebron's like I'm
not sure about retiring talk had to do with like applying pressure to the Lakers.
You can't let above all else. You can't let Reeves get away because
you're not willing to spend what it takes to match an offer sheet like that.
If that happens, I mean, like, what's your one. What's
your alternative as the Lakers, Like where are you going to replace him in
free agency? How are you going to do that? And then what do
you say to Lebron? Like what a senate are you giving him that?
Because you're running out of assets. You traded one of those firsts. You
don't have like an endless supply of other assets to make another, you know,
mid season overhaul. And the other thing here though, is I didn't
want to add because it gets into yes, you could say Reeves and Hatchmore
need to be back, and Reeves is cap hold is so small that that's
fine. Whatever does how this postseason unfolded make it more or less appealing to
go the cap space route, which would basically be you could keep Reeves,
ad Lebron, Vanderbilt and Max Christy and like, you're still not going to
get to thirty million dollars in room because I just you could if you're gonna
get rid of Vanderbilt, like you better trade him, you better not just
waive him. But like Beliek Beasley as that team option d lows a free
agent, we just said Ruyachramore's free agent, their cap holds are also enormous
and I'm just curious. Yeah, we talked about Ruby being important to this
team, how much do you actually want to pay ruy Hatimura moving forward?
And like it doesn't has it made it more appealing or less appealing? Like
I'll just repeat the question that I had to go the cap space route after
watching this postseason seeing how these playoffs ended for them. So who's worth it
out there? For? What you if you say you could clear about thirty,
is that that's like the conservative like the max number that they aggressive estimate
thirty? Who's worth that that's gonna be better than kind of keeping most of
the band together. Everyone's gonna say Kyrie, but like it seems like he's
got a handshake deal with Dallas that's going to be from much more than that.
So I don't know. I don't think it is worth it to go
the cap space route. I think like a DeAngelo Russell signing trade, is
that something like is that your real tool? Like I'm not sure because I
don't know how in demand Russell is going to be. I just think you
probably don't want him back that what it might cost to keep him, and
so you should try to turn that into something else, but it's been a
wild ride. Trade him to Washington to get Kuzma back. He could.
I mean, like, I don't know why the Wizards would necessarily do that.
I know they need a point guard, but yeah, that's the thing.
I don't know what the sign and trade market for Russell is, Like
it's I don't know where I don't know what the market for Russell is.
I mean, I'm not trying to do There are not a lot of point
guards out there, so, like you do, he does have that working
in his favor. There's not a lot of available available free asent point guards
that are like if you take Irving out of the picture, which I think
probably we should like it's kind of him, it's Van Vleet, it's then
you're then you're into like I mean, I don't even I'm just want to
look at it here so I don't forget somebody. I mean, Patrick Beverly
Territories gave Vincent and trade like after Kyrie and van Fleet, are those the
next best point guards? Yeah? Can if so they go, they can
go to the cap space route, but only if they signed Gabe Vincent for
the I don't know, for ten million years I'm just curious to see what
d'angelo's market will be because you go through the teams that have space. Houston
is not going to go after Dan Russell. Utah's not gonna go after D'Angel
Russell, Indian is not gonna go after would you say it was the last
one? Indian Detroit are not doing it. The Spurs probably aren't gonna do
it. Even though I think we were doing an exercise, a quick exercise,
and you said the Spurs would be a good fit for de Loo.
I think I agreed too. We might season though pre Wemby as well too.
Obviously, It's like I don't know where his offer is gonna come.
So maybe the sign and trade market actually might be your best bet, because
would there be a team that's like, we're not going to send you a
bunch, but like here is just like I don't know why would they help
out each other? But like would the Celtics consider all we need D'Angel russell
shot creation over having Marcus Smart or Derek White or Malcolm Brogden, Like,
is that even too much one of those players? Too much of a price
to pay for him? Where are you so we I think we've had a
little bit of a disagreement on Russell. I've kind of just been like the
wind. I mean, Stephen Stoyche Delos a future Kwangzo Tiger. I mean
that's you know, him and Dylan Brooks and Jordan Pool. I guess according
to the Twitter, I've always been a little lower on Pool on almost Freudian
slips at Pool on Delo. Then where are you on him? Like how
interested are you? It's not to just you know, your teams that need
point guards Washington, Orlando, I don't know, We've mentioned several others,
the Spurs, Like are you comfortable with him as a starting point guard at
like a starting point guard guard salary? So let's say, I mean he
made a lot this year, but let's say you have to pay him thirty
million dollars, Like like, that's just not that's just not what you want,
especially like he's been an All Star. He can run a pick and
roll, he's a clever shot creator. He had real moments in these playoffs,
you know, timely shooting, all this other stuff. But just like
you know, the Lakers being worried about losing him bespeaks a little selfishness.
He doesn't defend, Like, I just I don't is he an asset in
assigning trade, like is that it might be the only way the Lakers can
really do something short of the cap space route, which is super risky.
I just I don't know how valuable he how coveted he is, even by
teams that clearly need a point guard. I wondering what Brooklyn consider reuniting,
and like maybe the number is just smaller that like, is it twenty million
dollars a year, I'm exponentially more comfortable. Yeah, with him at that
number, everything changes then, but he's still the same type of player where
it's like, I'm not sure he wants to come off the bench, where
as like this, this happens all the time if he were your six man
that like came off the bench and ran the offense against backups. At twenty
million a year, which is a little high for that role, like that's
that's the optimal role. That like, that's what he could really excel at.
I think, And I just it doesn't seem like he's interested in that,
which makes it much more complicate to define him a suitor. You know,
I do think what also makes this and by the way, there's a
report I can't see where it came from that the Lakers are prepared to make
a trade offer for Trey Young. They can offer one first round pick and
salary. Yeah. Yeah, so, which is wild that people could I
don't understand the point of reporting this stuff when it's just so implausible. Yeah,
I just I don't get it. It's I think when you look at
it, you could say, okay, well you might as well just keep
these players and then you can try and futs and fiddle on the trade market.
You can deal one first round pick because you gave the twenty twenty seven
one up. You can do one first round pick, and you could swaps
but one first round pick, and like, now, what is Molie Beasley's
value after he devolved into unplayable for you? And so I do think that's
what makes it tough, is that it looked a lot better just bring everyone
back and you could make these moves on the margins is really movable on his
next deal? Is Austin Reeves movable on his next deal? I tend to
agree that with you that you have to kind of just run this back and
you can try and fux and fiddle from there. Or just hope that you're
better after having a whole season, Like maybe dans Of Russell is just a
better fit next year after going through a training camp. I just I think
that the flexibility route might hold more appeal because like, I don't know that
you can hope to reach this apex again with this group, Like you just
made it to the conference finals. You got trucked, but you did make
it to the conference finals. I don't know if that door with this group
is going to be open again because they still need if you bring these guys
back, and you're probably gonna lose Lonnie Walker the fourth this offseason, by
the way, and he became fairly important to your rotation. You still need
shooting, you still need like wings. And now they're not a team that
I think needs to concern themselves about this, Like they'll have their mini mid
level exception if they bring everybody back unless they just pay everyone up the wazoo
and their payroll brilli inflates, like who are you getting for the mini mid
level? Like do you even get a Josh Richardson for them? I don't
know. Couldn't they get into the bad contract business if you took Beasley and
Bombas salaries. Bamba's got a non guarantee for ten point three and Beasley's got
the team option for just under the sixteen five. You put those two together
with the pick, and you maybe it's even hard to find another sizeable salary
that's gonna be on the books to trade. They really don't have one.
So you're talking like twenty seven ish million with a first round pick attached.
Is there a bad contract out there you could or like a distressed asset type
of player you could get back? Well, I was gonna say, if
those are all expiring, do you can you go to the realm of just
like if you offered that to Dallas, would they give you Tim Hardaway junior?
Do you think he's enough of an upgrade over? That's the thing.
If you could get up to like forty you know, if you had which
is hard to do. Nobody has like forty million dollars and non guarantees and
whatever to cobble together with a pick attached, like you know, then you
oh, Tobias Harris, I don't know, the Sixers want cap relief like
Ben Simmons or there's like that kind of like really wild bad contract stuff.
But you know, under thirty million in with a first rounder attached, like
Tim Bartoway might be about as good as you can do. So even that
that routes like it doesn't do better than Tim Hardaway? How much better?
Like I'm trying to think like thirty four million dollars over the next two years,
Like that's a net negative contract. I don't even know if you need
to give up the first rounder in that instance, but like, does that
offer Let's let's do this. Does that offer get you Boyon Bogdanovitch and you
don't need to give up that much salary, So it would be like Malik
Beasley and the first for Boyon Bogdanovitch. And then if you're resigning Ruey and
you're the Lakers, do you even do that out? I mean, Boyan
just had such an incredible season that maybe you do, but I think you
do. I don't think Detroit. I mean I think Detroit. You know
what. So it's a twenty nine first, right, so like there's upside
to that pick, but is like that's so far out, Like I just
it's really hard to sell that. Like basically you're trading like a decent player.
That's why I keep thinking it's got to be just a bad contract and
you just hope that you're buying at the you know, absolute nadea of someone's
value. Here's I mean this kind of I don't know why you would keep
Russell then, but can you get to the money and they could in fury
Chris Paul from Phoenix. Yeah, I mean that's like that's the type of
thing you'd have to do where it's like this could go real bad and we
just gave up our, you know, our I assume you'd have to use
the pick there because although like don't, I don't think Bomb has any value,
but Beasley might have some value in Phoenix. He's kind of like Terrence
Rossi and they played him a lot, so you know, I don't know,
Yeah, I don't. I just don't know what the move for them
improving is. I think it's I'm with you that you have to kind of
bring everyone back and then hopefully some of those deals age into tradeable assets and
then you can maybe hit like home runs on the Mini mL E and your
your minimums like do better than getting at Troy Brown Junior here. But all
that, I just I'm I'm kind of fascinated by what they do. They
don't I don't. My point being I don't think they have a big move
left in them. And look like this was a good team after they made
the trades and like, you know, so it's not so much like,
well, if they run it back, they're going to struggle in as the
seventh seed and hope to avoid like I mean, injuries to Davis and Lebron
and load management and stuff that you price that in a little bit. But
if you run it back with this team, I think your expectation should probably
be like you're trying to get a top four seed, and it's not unrealistic
because they played that well when they had everybody you know available that was in
the rotation, you know, down the stretch of the season post trade deadline.
So like it feels underwhelming and it's always like, well, this is
clearly won't be enough because they just got swept. They might have just got
swept by the eventual champion and their best players were worn down because they just
had to do too much, especially early in the season for what was then
a go nowhere team, Like there is upside actually if you just bring everyone
back, I mean, it'll cost a ton but you're the Lakers, and
like, this is Lebron. If you get Lebron back, like this might
be his last realistic shot. So I think I think it always feels underwhelming
to say just yeah, the same same group, but that's probably the way
to go. Is there any scenario where this ends with Lebron trying to angle
for his own exit via trade? I thought about that too, because I
was like, oh, because I had forgotten, I thought, well,
maybe he's got a play, Like can he opt out this summer? No,
he cannot, That's that's next year. Like where where would he?
Like what you see he would if he were to do that. It's the
money's too big. You just he can't get anywhere that would be able to
acquire him without giving up so much that it would knock them down a peg.
And like the contender hierarchy, So then what would be the point,
you know, into Houston's cap space, into Houston's cap space. He's never
played with James Harden Maybe yeah, No, I don't know how that how
that would work to play, you know, because if he could opt out,
then it's like then it's very interesting, but it's just it's not that's
not that's not how it's gonna work. Clay Thompson for Lebron is that is
that going to be on the table at all? He's loved Clay Thompson is
all aways love the Lakers. The Lakers just watched him miss every shot he
took for a whole series too, though I'm not sure I interested they'd be
before we get out of here, Do you have any thoughts? I'm Carmelo
Anthony retiring, and I know that you have thoughts because you texted me something
that I thought was incredibly spicy, and I won't I won't air it out
here, but if you want the chance to say, I mean so in
a little bit of the Delo mold, I was always kind of lower on
Carmelo than consensus, I guess, or maybe then, like I don't know
then most people, but to me, so my take is basically that like
he is a Hall of Famer, because that was what we were talking about.
But I think he's gonna go in as kind of like the last.
There aren't gonna be a lot more Carmelo types. I don't think he'll be
kind of the last of his kind. And what I mean is just that
the book on him is basically that he was an absolute bucket. Like I
think the end of his career really overshadows like how difficult he was to guard
early when he was still really athletic and strong and could just you know,
he was he could get to the basket like crazy. He had the mid
range game, just all the one dribble stuff. He was super hard to
keep, you know, out of the lane, and was just incredibly skilled,
strong, like just great, great scorer, but not always the most
efficient and didn't bring it defensively and didn't probably make other players that much better,
but he got a massively high volume role, which just like that doesn't
happen anymore there, you know. I guess like it's not even fair to
compare him to like Derozen because de Rozan is like very efficient and Carmelo just
really wasn't part of that's an era thing, Like if he'd played his whole
career starting now, he would have shot like a zillion threes and probably been
a more efficient player like everybody. But yeah, I don't think. I
think just teams getting smarter about like what good offenses are not going to empower
a player like him to play as large of a role as he got to
play for most of his career. So like I think, I think he
for his era was a great offensive player and should be honored as such and
get into the Hall of Fame and all that stuff. But like, I'm
not gonna there won't be more Carmelo Anthony's I don't think. I don't think
the league has like the stomach for that type of offensive player going forward,
unless the rules change or something crazy happens. But that's kind of my take
on it. Is, like he's an interesting data point in like the evolution
of NBA basketball over the last twenty years because he was just a different type
of player than we value today. I would agree. I'm just curious as
to like, would Carmelo Anthony even be like Carmelo Anthony if he came from
the NBA today where it's you know, we saw him. It happened later
than you would want it to, but like you already mentioned him shooting more
threes, him playing the four earlier would certainly have been on the table.
And then also I think Olympics mellow never really appeared in the NBA just because
it's so different. He was never gonna play with that many stars, But
like, would he have adapted his game more? Would teams have been quicker
to shoehorn him into the number two role rather than viewing him as the number
one? And so I guess I'm a little bit higher. I was probably
always a little bit higher on him. And shocker, I was a Knicks
fan. Is that really like just surprising that would have been higher on him
than you? But that's right. I always stot of landing on him.
I thought there was more of his game to tap into and that he was
just emboldened and enabled not to for so much of his career in that because
of what we know now, he would have been forced to follow a different
trajectory. Where does he make as many All NBA teams? I don't know.
I could certainly see it, I mean, like and not for nothing,
by the way, Like this is someone who's ninth in scoring rights.
That's a big deal. And I don't think he made six All NBA teams,
ten All Star teams. That doesn't happen by mistake. And there's you
can quip over whether you think he's a top seventy five player of all time,
like he did make that list. I just think that Mellow could thrive
in today's NBA, maybe even possibly be a better version of himself, if
only by force. I do would agree with you that the whole the way
that he especially early on his offense, how that was generated, that's just
something we're not going to see, yeah, anymore, or at least I
wouldn't. I wouldn't think no, I don't think so. I mean,
if you were gonna let anybody just like cook from the elbows and you know,
shoot contested jumpers, he would he'd be on the very short list of
guys that you you know, the Derosians and stuff like that, where it's
like, yeah, he's just he's good at this, he can we this
is okay, it's a bad shot for most people, but he's you know,
he's so overwhelming at his peak that like you just deal with it.
And he does have like the you know what we would think of now is
kind of the ideal combo forward size, but the defense isn't there. I
think that's where that's that's part of like the last of his kind thing is
like if you have that frame and you're not a really good or at least
a capable defender, and maybe he would have been if he'd needed to be,
because it always like physically he had the tools to be a good defender
if he if he'd if that had been a priority, and maybe it would
have now because he just would would not get to play if he didn't,
you know, compete as much on that end. But that that's an interesting
aspect of it. Is like the demands of a player with his like frame
are just way different now than they used than they were, you know,
certainly for the first ten years of his career. I have this is a
final question for you. I think this is really a thinker. I'm gonna
throw it up on the screen for you so you could just digest it.
I saw it was tweeted by Sports Center. Which number fifteen goes into the
rafters? Rafters Karmen Anthony or Yokich I mean should be both, but sorry,
Like, we just spent spent the first twenty minutes of this talking about
how Yogis is the best player of his era, So I don't I get
why stuff like that is. We actually had a conversation about this in discord.
That's why you should all join our discord very about the coverage of the
league and but just like I hate seeing I know why it's out there,
but I hate seeing the timing of it because all that serves to do is
diminish anthy'sac because you know it shouldn't be if if you had to choose between
one, No, it's not gonna be garmel Anthe because it should be and
will be. Nicole Yokich. Yeah, that's tough, tough, tough timing
on the on the tweet. So there's that, and then Lebron couldn't even
let Melo has his day. Melo retires and Lebron starts hinting at retirement.
Yeah, I mean I'm not ready just to see that. I know Melo
wasn't in the league this year, but like that two thousand and three draft
class is not being I'm not ready. I'm not ready for it. That's
a tough one. Yeah, I mean, Darko Milicich was really young.
He could make it back, like he's probably still got some years in him.
I don't know yours cross that happens. Yeah, someday you all right,
Well I'll take it out if you're ready. Everybody, thank you for
listening, Thanks for watching the stream. If you have not done so,
already. As Dan mentioned at the top, make sure you rate, review,
subscribe, you have US five stars anywhere you're listening to your podcast by
some merch, so you two can be thermonuclear af and fueled by caffeine.
No dip threes. You can apologize to Mitchell rob There's just like so many
ways you can support the podcast all and as this is key size up.
Dan said, if you're a medium, by all large. If you're a
large, buy an x L these are these are going to shrink on you
and they come a little small stickers and cups and all this other stuff.
Normal size don't need to buy a giant one grows. They will one large
extra large mug. Please like a Yeah, I'd like a sixty four ounce
coffee. Do we have Hardwooknox goblets? We get a goblet? All that
would do it? We should look into that. Follow us on on our
socials, Twitter and TikTok at Hardwood Knox at Hardwood Underscore Knox on Instagram.
Uh and yeah, tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell everybody you
know to build our subscriber base, and uh keep making it possible for you
to get sweet merch and incredible basketball takes and also bad ones and uh yeah,
so I don't know who to apologize to. I guess I'm gonna go
back to the original and shout out Frank Nilakina and also apologize to the one
only Jared our No