WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.879 Hey, guys, it's Jack. I just wanted to talk to you today 2 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:06.879 about a way that you can help support the podcast. If you're not already, 3 00:00:07.200 --> 00:00:10.720 we would really appreciate it if you guys went and reviewed us on Apple 4 00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:15.320 or Spotify. Those reviews really help people find the podcast and help it get 5 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:18.760 recognized, and you know, if you've been enjoying the show, we really 6 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:23.879 appreciate your support. Another thing that you can do to support the channel is 7 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:28.839 to become a Patreon member. So we have Patreon memberships that started just five 8 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:32.719 dollars a month, and when you sign up, you get access to all 9 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.520 of our episodes add free. That's the big bonus for that. I mean, 10 00:00:36.520 --> 00:00:41.640 we also do some Patreon bonus episodes for our subscribers, but this is 11 00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:47.560 the biggest and best way that you can support the Teamhouse channel and podcast if 12 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:51.240 you'd like to, and we really appreciate that. So go and check us 13 00:00:51.240 --> 00:01:02.399 out at patreon dot com. Slash the Teamhouse, Special Operations, Cobert as 14 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:11.640 Spionage, The Team House with Your Hopes. Jack Murphy and David Park. 15 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:19.599 Hey, folks, welcome to episode two hundred and seventy one of the Team 16 00:01:19.599 --> 00:01:23.519 House. I'm Jack Murphy here with Dave Park. Tonight on the show, 17 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:27.959 we have Ben McKelvey. He is the author of Find Fixed Finish. He's 18 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:33.400 also the author of Missoul and the Commando. We're going to be mostly talking 19 00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:38.359 about this book tonight, which is about the Australian Special Air Service Regiment, 20 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:45.079 some heroic actions that they took, and also some allegations of war crimes that 21 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:48.840 we're going to go deep into. Right before we get into that, I 22 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:53.959 just want to give a shout out to our Patreon and i'd ask you know, 23 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.719 folks out there listening or viewing this, click the link down in the 24 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.200 description for our Patreon and consider sponsoring the show. Supporting the channel, you 25 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:05.120 get access to all of these episodes ad free when you sign up, and 26 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.240 we really appreciate you guys helping this thing keep chugging along. So thank you 27 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:14.919 Ben, Thanks for coming on the show. Man. I guess how I 28 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:21.919 am doing? Real good early morning there in Australia. Yeah, it's a 29 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:28.280 beautiful autumnal day Bunda Beach. It's sunny and gorgeous. So Ben, before 30 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:30.479 we get into the book, I want to ask you a little bit about 31 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:35.800 your background, how you came into journalism, how you came in specifically into 32 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:42.800 you know, Australian military national security journalism. Yeah. I actually just wrote 33 00:02:42.800 --> 00:02:46.080 a book about how I got into journalism and how I got into that national 34 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.560 security stuff. I had a phasic stroke when I was when I was twenty 35 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:54.360 seven, so I was working in a magazine and I was boxing at the 36 00:02:54.360 --> 00:03:00.199 time, and then all of a sudden, I couldn't speak. I couldn't 37 00:03:00.639 --> 00:03:04.199 you know, comprehend language, couldn't read, couldn't write, went to hospital, 38 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.479 had a sort of you know recovery of a number of months, you 39 00:03:08.520 --> 00:03:14.080 know, going back into you know, comic books and young adult novels and 40 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:20.919 you know, like really sort of language skills. And then I had done 41 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:24.719 all that, and I was sort of conceiving a life outside of the journalism 42 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.479 life that I already had. I was working at a men's magazine. I 43 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:30.000 was having a lot of fun with my friends. I had actually done a 44 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:34.479 little bit of work with the Commandos. I'd gone and done their barrier test 45 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:38.879 for a story, and then I'd also done a sort of exercise with them 46 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:44.680 and the Incident Response Regiment which was later so the Special Operations Engineering Regiment, 47 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:46.719 and I'd gone to East or in an MBED and I've done a few little 48 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:52.560 bits and pieces, but that's what I really wanted to do. And eventually 49 00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:55.520 I petitioned to the Australian Defense Force to go to Iraq with them as an 50 00:03:55.520 --> 00:04:02.639 embed. And then while I was waite on that on that that request, 51 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:06.159 which I thought was a hail Mary given where I was working, what I 52 00:04:06.199 --> 00:04:12.080 was doing, I had a heart attack and it was a stemy heart attack. 53 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.520 So that was kind of like a pretty serious incident. And I had 54 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:19.800 to have some open heart surgeries afterwards. And and then I recovered from the 55 00:04:20.439 --> 00:04:26.399 last surgery and I was, you know, I'm I'm ninety six kilos or 56 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:28.680 something. I was, I was in the sixties. After the surgery, 57 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:31.120 you know, I was, I was thin and ill and couldn't even walk 58 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:34.240 up my street. And then I got an emar from the Defense Force saying 59 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.560 okay, come to a rock, you know, in a few weeks time, 60 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:44.240 and I went to my cardiology. I went to my surgeon and said, 61 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.480 you know, I thought he was going to tell me you can't do 62 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.079 this, and he's like, live your life, you know, which is 63 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:54.759 a very sort of surgeon attitude. They're like that pic shit, like my 64 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.720 work is good. You got to a rack, and then that sort of 65 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.160 started it for me. I went to a rock, and then independently I 66 00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.560 worked as a freelancer and went through around in Syria and Afghanistan for other bits 67 00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:10.879 and pieces, and then I worked. The thing that really accelerated me in 68 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:15.759 that space was working on a biography of Cameron Baird, who you're aware of, 69 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:18.759 Jack, Yeah, yeah, how did you know? How did you 70 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:21.160 know of Cam or did you know Caim? Did you have any interactions with 71 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:25.839 him? No? I never met him. I knew of him through some 72 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.519 of his teammates and people and the commandos who knew him, and they told 73 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.279 me stories about how he'd camo up like the incredible hawk, and like he 74 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:38.560 was big about charging out there and wanted the enemy to see him and shoot 75 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.759 at him so he could shoot back, like just like a larger than life 76 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.800 kind of figure. He really was. I remember one of the first interviews 77 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:48.959 that I did with one of his CEOs was he always knew when they got 78 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.959 out of the helicopters, which one was Betty, because no soldiers were sort 79 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.040 of moving forward in a relatively uniform fashion. And then Betty was just like 80 00:05:56.319 --> 00:06:04.800 yoah off being a bullet magnet, you know. But yeah, there was 81 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:11.600 this, you know, the Special Operations Task Group, which was Australia's a 82 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:17.759 special forces commitment to the war in Afghanistan was large and very kinetic, but 83 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.920 not known about much in Australia at all. No one had been embedded with 84 00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:27.240 the Special Forces. We had this protected identity status law, meaning that they 85 00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:30.399 couldn't legally speak to journalists about what they were doing. And that was the 86 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:36.240 commandos and the SASR meaning and SOA and you know everybody else associated. So 87 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:40.959 there was really a dearth of information as to what the Australians had been doing 88 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.240 in her as Again. And then when I got the contract to do the 89 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:47.759 book about Cameron Baird, the posthumous book about Cameron bird Did being killed in 90 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:55.399 combat. I went to Holsworthy and started interviewing the guys and I was completely 91 00:06:55.759 --> 00:07:00.519 shocked, you know, I just had I had no idea. I kind 92 00:07:00.519 --> 00:07:04.120 of felt that I had sort of been paying attention to what had been happening 93 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:08.720 in the war in Afghanistan, and it was it was a completely different story. 94 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.839 And you know, that was a thread that I sort of pulled and 95 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:15.079 pulled and pulled and had been doing that all the way to find fixed finish. 96 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:19.319 So you feel that the Australian people were fairly naive about the intensity of 97 00:07:19.319 --> 00:07:24.560 the combat that their soldiers were getting into. Yeah, I mean not just 98 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:28.519 that, you know, there was there was there was a failure not only 99 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:32.439 within the public, but you know, on a political level to understand just 100 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:35.439 the basic tenor of the conflict. I mean, even now, you know, 101 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.879 my pet Peeve is there'll be a news report about the commandos on the 102 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.639 drug job that they had done. You know, a historical news report might 103 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:47.079 be related to war crimes or something else. And then uniformly, when they're 104 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.680 talking about a gunfight, they they referred to the Afghanis as Taliban, and 105 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:56.120 you know, sometimes they were finding the Taliban and sometimes they weren't. You 106 00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:00.759 know, it was it just I knew so little. I realized when I 107 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:03.560 started that book that I knew so little, and that meant that most people 108 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:07.079 in Australia knew so little about about the conflict that you know, we'd we'd 109 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:13.160 sort of been heavily involved in and we only sort of understood after the fact. 110 00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:18.199 I'm just curious for you because we've talked to American journalists too, were 111 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:22.199 in Badge with US sports is. How were you received when you first showed 112 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:28.079 up. What was your relationship like with not only the command structures but the 113 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:35.799 individual soldiers themselves. I think I was received better than most because on my 114 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.240 body armor I just slapped a Ralph sticker which had a you know, so 115 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:46.080 a half naked woman on the sticker, and soldiers almost uniformly had Ralph posters, 116 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:50.360 you know, in tanks and you know, on their lines and you 117 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:54.399 know, so, yeah, journalists from you know, ABC or two GB 118 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:56.320 or something that they don't really give a ship but it's like, oh, 119 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.919 it's the Ralph guy. It's like, I know what that outlet is, 120 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:03.879 you know. So, so I the story that I ended up doing. 121 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:05.919 I did a piece for Ralph and then I did a piece for the West 122 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:11.840 Australian newspaper and a piece for The Bulletin, which was Australia's version of Newsweek 123 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:16.120 at the time. You know, I did a piece that was really a 124 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:22.080 soldier's view of things, which up to find fixed finish was was sort of 125 00:09:22.120 --> 00:09:26.879 the way that I operated was from the perspective of a soldier who's on the 126 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.080 ground, you know, because I want to know what they know and then 127 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.039 maybe I'll bring in some information about, you know, contextually where they are. 128 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.320 But that's where I really started from a from a biography background, and 129 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.120 that that was my perspective up until Fine Fixed Finish. So to jump into 130 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:46.120 find Fixed Finish, if you can take us a little bit back in time 131 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.399 to a little history lesson that you write about in your book about there's this 132 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.559 large span of time for the Special Air Service regiment between the Vietnam conflict where 133 00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:01.000 they served, and the Global War on Tarer or could you tell us about 134 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:05.919 the sort of like pre Global War on Terror Special Air Service, what their 135 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:11.600 mission was, what their culture was, and then weading us into the Tampa. 136 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.279 Yeah, well, in Vietnam they had sort of earned this monika, 137 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.840 the ghosts of the Jungle. You know, they were sort of you know, 138 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:22.759 there were special Forces as you would understand them to be. They'd sort 139 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:28.240 of they disappear and reappear and you know, and kill and no one and 140 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:31.480 know where they've been, and you know, they really kind of had this 141 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:37.159 this sort of dangerous kinetic mission. And then after Vietnam there was a defense 142 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.720 white paper, an Australian Defense White Paper, which is kind of a big 143 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:43.639 deal. It only happens every you know, sort of ten to fifteen years 144 00:10:43.720 --> 00:10:48.919 or something, and I think the guy's numbers. Paul did wrote this white 145 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:52.120 paper about the defense of Australia, and there was a structure of the Australian 146 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:58.279 Defense Force that was dedicated on the defense of Australia, which it seems sort 147 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:03.279 of you know, obvious and and it sort of makes sense, but that 148 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:07.879 meant that we didn't have much capacity for force projection and within a Defense of 149 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:13.840 Australia structure, the SAS would sort of primarily be engaged with during guerrilla warfare 150 00:11:13.840 --> 00:11:18.799 and Northern Australia, which is not particularly populated, and there was even a 151 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:26.240 program where they were working with Indigenous Australians to do demolitions and things like that. 152 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:30.399 Yeah, there's still a group up there called nor Force that they get 153 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.440 guys who're sort of traditional owners of land and then engage them to you knows, 154 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:39.480 to work in commns or in demolitions. Yeah, that's right for guys 155 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:46.559 who really understand the really uninhabited areas of Australia. So the sa SR that 156 00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:50.960 that ended up becoming their job. But you know, there was outside of 157 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:54.440 a few little missions, you know, they ease team or there was a 158 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.440 time where they were like seriously engaged. But but they you know, one 159 00:11:56.440 --> 00:11:58.440 of the quotes in the book is that they just spend a lot of time 160 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:03.399 wondering and the desert, counting train cars. You know, they'd sort of 161 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:05.279 secrete themselves in a position and watch a train go by, and then you 162 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.480 come back and that'd be there, you know, because there are mean mission 163 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:16.440 at the time was strategic reconnaissance. Yeah, basically that's right in Australia as 164 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:18.679 well, which is a large empty place. So you know, it just 165 00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:22.399 meant it just meant being really good at being out for a long time and 166 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:28.039 then coming back and coming back with information or you know, or whatever one 167 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.559 of the job was at the time. But the guys who were within the 168 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.679 regiment, there was a lot of people who who you know, it just 169 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.320 wasn't it wasn't an engaging role for them, you know, it was it 170 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.840 was sort of preparing for something that they thought probably was never going to happen, 171 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:50.279 and it wasn't a it wasn't a particularly explosive job. But then Tampa 172 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:56.960 happened. So Tampa was Tampa was a ship that came into nearly came into 173 00:12:56.000 --> 00:13:01.759 Australian waters with a lot of refugees. So refugees and they were mostly Afghan 174 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:09.039 had come on an Indonesian fishing vessel to try and come to Australia illegally, 175 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.480 and then their ship started to sink and they put out an SOS call and 176 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.080 then the Tampa came and rescued them, and then a lot of them were 177 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:18.879 sick. So you know, the law of the sea is that they need 178 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.840 to be they need to be brought to Australia. So they've been given to 179 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:28.960 be given medical treatment. But there was a lot of political doing and throwing 180 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:33.840 at the moment then and actually at the moment about illegal migrants coming into Australia, 181 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.120 and they had set up a policy where they weren't going to let anyone 182 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.039 come into Australia. So when Tampa, when the Tampa decided that they were 183 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.799 going to come to Christmas Island, which is a territory in Australia, the 184 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:50.799 government told them they couldn't, and then there ended up being this stand up 185 00:13:52.080 --> 00:14:00.360 and then the Sas were actually sent to storm the ship because erroneously there were 186 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:05.080 reports that, you know, some of the refugees I don't think of the 187 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.399 report that they were armed, but that they might have been dangerous, and 188 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:09.320 you know, they all had gastro and they were all lying on the deck 189 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.159 and they're all exhausted and sick, and they've been at sea for weeks and 190 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.879 weeks. So the Essas end up storming Tampa, and there was some leaked 191 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.240 photos and video of it, and it all looked very very dramatic. But 192 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:26.840 in the book I sort of mark that as the moment where the SAS to 193 00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:30.879 a certain extent became a political tool, because only a few weeks later nine 194 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:33.240 to eleven happened, And as soon as nine to eleven happened, the guys 195 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:37.919 at Campbell Barracks where the SAS started preparing for a mission to go into Afghanistan, 196 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.279 and they were one of the one of the first forces after the Marines 197 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.120 secured I can't remember which basically is. I'm sure you guys remember was it 198 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.120 Bagroom or Kanda horror? No, it was in Kandaha. Yeah, okay, 199 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.320 Well, talk to us a little bit about the early g y years 200 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.679 in Afghanistan where the Special Air Service really did some quality work in my opinion 201 00:15:01.720 --> 00:15:05.679 based on what I read in your book. Yeah, I mean basically they 202 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.039 would they would, like you said, they were doing reconnaissance, and you 203 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.720 know, they they would. There were a few instances where they would. 204 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:22.960 They were working with the Marines, primarily with the Mathis, and he really 205 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.039 loved their work because they would go out for such a long time. You 206 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.480 know, they would have reconnaissance teams that go out for you know, I 207 00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.559 come ten twenty days and I think some of the SASL teams went out for 208 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:37.799 fifty or sixty days in these sort of open top vehicles in the freezing cold, 209 00:15:37.919 --> 00:15:39.000 you know. But they were so happy to get the work that they 210 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:43.159 were just meant, they were happy to you know, to just keep going 211 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.879 and going. And then they they had done a lot of instances where they 212 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:52.399 had identified targets, sat there, waited, looked at the pattern of life, 213 00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:54.120 send all the information back and then there were either strikes or there weren't 214 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:58.080 strikes, or you know, a larger force would come in and prosecute the 215 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.279 targets. And they had done all that and then they were they were given 216 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:11.879 a role that ended up being ended up being relatively integral in Operation Anaconda and 217 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:18.360 you know where Robert's Ridge and all of that activity happened. But the primary 218 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:23.960 Australian force was working was working as a as a blocking force with other international 219 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:29.279 special forces. But there was one team that was in this position that was 220 00:16:29.320 --> 00:16:33.799 just sort of perfect for bringing in air and ordinance and they did that day 221 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.759 after day after day after day after day, you know, without without having 222 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.879 any direct confrontation with the enemy, but bringing in this ordinance. But that 223 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:47.279 was at the time a sort of perfect essay as mission. You know, 224 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:51.200 that's that's what they were really good at and they they had executed that really 225 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:56.200 well. But that sort of mission moves on because technology moves on, you 226 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:57.879 know, with with with drones and the sort of satellite technology that we have 227 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:03.119 now it's you don't need as much of that. So then their their capabilities 228 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:08.519 and their missions changed. And so with with that, if we we fast 229 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:15.079 forward a few years, well is it ers Gan Province? Uh yeah, 230 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:22.960 talk to us about you know, Sasser landing in that province their first stops 231 00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:26.519 in April two thousand and six, and and then and then their their relationship 232 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.400 with the Dutch who were also in charge of that sector. Yeah, I 233 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:33.920 mean the Dutch. The Dutch came in a little later. So Australia had 234 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.880 put their hand up to say that they would be part of ISA, of 235 00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:44.359 the International Security Assistant's Force, but we didn't know or the Australian government didn't 236 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.119 know exactly where that force was gonna was going to end up, on what 237 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:51.039 the composition of it was going to be. But there was there was a 238 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.480 suggestion that they would go to Uruzgan, and there's a couple of quotes in 239 00:17:55.519 --> 00:18:00.799 the book about they just weren't prepared for a province Oruzgan perhaps, or that 240 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.200 they didn't know necessarily what they were going into the Australian government because you know, 241 00:18:04.319 --> 00:18:10.160 Uruzgan is along with Candor Hearts, it's sort of one of the it's 242 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:11.279 sort of one of the heartlands of the Taliban. You know, it's where 243 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:17.599 Mulaoma was from, that's where his village is. So they sent the SASR 244 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:22.240 into some ground truth thing and there's a story in the book about an element 245 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:29.400 going up to the northwest corner of Uruzgan and you know, they see some 246 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:30.400 locals and they're sort of like, hey, how are you going? And 247 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.880 then all of a sudden, there's just RPGs and bullets and you know, 248 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:40.480 these were just locals who are aggrieved with with the Australians coming into to Uruzgan. 249 00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.039 They ended up being this massive gun fight. You know, they ended 250 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.960 up bringing in apaches, the whole thing. I mean, this is just 251 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.079 meant to be a hey, hey, you gun with the locals ground truthing 252 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:56.079 mission. And then they come back to they come back to tarran Cott and 253 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:59.759 when they do, the Australian Defense Minister Robert Hill is there and he sees 254 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.039 all the shot up vehicles and blooded soldiers. None of the Australian SASR guys 255 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:07.960 are killed, but but there's there's a lot of injuries. Uh. And 256 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:12.039 he has never spoken about this, but he retired from his position a few 257 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:18.079 weeks later, and the speculation was that he he had always had an issue 258 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:23.480 with Australia's involvement in Iraq and that he didn't think that it was within australia 259 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:30.200 strategic interest to be involved in Iraq is my understanding, but there is speculation 260 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.319 that he saw what the what the Afghan mission was going to be for the 261 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:38.000 Australians in the in these sort of years to come, and he was perhaps 262 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.640 and this is not something I did actually speak to the Prime Minister and the 263 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:45.000 Foreign Minister at that time. It's not something that he that they would speak 264 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.680 to me about. But there may have been issues within the National Security Cabinet 265 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.880 as to as to whether Australia should have had that role in Afghanistan. And 266 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:56.839 then the essays are sorry gone. I was just going to ask. I 267 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:00.960 mean, as as things develop, you know, the says ends up in 268 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:06.119 this capture kill mission. But the Dutch have a different approach, that's more 269 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:11.480 hearts and minds oriented. Yeah, the Dutch, the Dutch mission was was 270 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:18.960 very much there. There had to be a political mandate for the things that 271 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.599 they were going to do, and with the way that the Dutch government was 272 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:26.720 constructed at the time, there were a lot of left leaning government or left 273 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:32.160 leaning parties that had influence into what was what ended up being the Dutch operations. 274 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:36.960 So that was part of the reason why they weren't comfortable doing kill capture. 275 00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:41.200 But the other issue is that they wasn't an issue. It was a 276 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:45.960 boon to them. They had these sort of anthropologists, They had a lot 277 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:48.519 of people at this place called the liaison organization that were given them really great 278 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:55.839 intel into the way that the tribal structure worked in Euroscam. And so they 279 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:02.240 were sort of suggesting to the Dutch forces that endlessly attacking the enemies of the 280 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:08.440 warlord that we have associated ourselves with, which was a guy called called John 281 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.480 Muhammed Khan, and then a guy called back to Yola Khan afterwards he said, 282 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:15.920 you're just going to create more conflict. And so they didn't necessarily believe 283 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:21.079 in the American mission that was sort of maximalist and more kinetic than the Dutch 284 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.079 thought it should be. And then the Australians put their hand up and they're 285 00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:30.359 like, yeah, yeah, we'll do that good. And talk to us 286 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:36.640 a little bit about how those ops get stood up. You know, June, 287 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.079 in your book June second, two thousand and six, there's an operation 288 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.319 where a Special Air Service operator Ben Roberts Smith is said to kill the teenager 289 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:52.279 during an engagement, maybe legitimately maybe not. Yeah, yeah, I mean 290 00:21:52.279 --> 00:21:59.359 that was that's the sort of integral and important moment in the history of Australia's 291 00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:03.400 engagement in Afghanistan, because this was this was the sort of combined op this 292 00:22:03.480 --> 00:22:07.920 is when they were working with with the Dutch. And the idea of that 293 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.640 off was there's a valley coming into Tarankott, which is where the multinational base 294 00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:18.079 is and where the provincial capital is. But there were a lot of there 295 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:22.440 was a lot of opposing forces. Some of them were associated with the centralized 296 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.720 insurgency, but a lot of them were the enemies of this war or Jamahamad 297 00:22:26.759 --> 00:22:32.519 Khan at the time, and Shura and Baluchi came through to a place called 298 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:36.640 Durafshan, which was sort of on the plane very close to taran Cott, 299 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:41.680 and so you basically had this this non permissive area that was leading into the 300 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:45.200 capitol. So the idea was that they would clear Chor out, they'd have 301 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:51.039 this this large operation and they'd have this force pushed through all the way through 302 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.640 to taran Cott and be a series of battles and they take control of this 303 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:57.440 area, and that you know, the Afghanisa the Dutch would sort of seeze 304 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.359 these areas, put up control bases and then you know, we'd have a 305 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.759 permissive environment close to close to where the multinational basis and where the provincial capital 306 00:23:04.880 --> 00:23:10.400 is. Uh Incidentally, they they ended up fighting in that area consistently, 307 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:12.720 you know, all the way through basically, you know, there were there 308 00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:17.720 were there were periods of peace and periods of war, but but it never 309 00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:22.480 ended up becoming a sort of a wholly permissive area. But Ben Robert Smith 310 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.359 was sent up to be part of a patrol that was going to be doing 311 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:32.880 an overwatch not just similar to you know, the overwatch mission that Matthew Bully 312 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:37.039 who was the guy who was who was the patrol leader for the mission. 313 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:38.640 Operation at a condo, not dissimilar to that, you know, center, 314 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.000 hang out a little spot, see what's happening down there, send intel back, 315 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:47.359 perhaps bring ordnance in if you have to, and then secrete your way 316 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.759 back. But you know, this is the subject of a defamation case at 317 00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:00.079 the moment, so you know, we can't specifically know what happened. But 318 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.640 un armed or unarmed actually I think they've agreed that it's unarmed, but may 319 00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:08.640 or may not have been a spot or a teenage kid walks across, perhaps 320 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:14.440 preteen walks across the observation post and they decide to go and find him and 321 00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:19.240 kill him, and they do that, and then that starts an engagement and 322 00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:22.119 they have to sort of fight their way back, which they do, and 323 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.599 they end up bringing in air support and you know, so the fight ends 324 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.599 up, the sense of gravity of the fight ends up being at the top 325 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:30.599 of the mountain, not down in the valley where it's meant to be. 326 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.599 But depending on who you speak to, that that was sort of, you 327 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:41.759 know, an integral and valorous moment within the sa SR, and people have 328 00:24:41.799 --> 00:24:45.920 given medals afterwards, and some people have suggested that that sort of set a 329 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.559 pre cindent within the SAS be the s s R in Afghanistan, because you 330 00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:55.200 know, that was that perhaps could be seen as a strategic net negative moment, 331 00:24:55.759 --> 00:25:00.240 and yet people were people were awarded medals for it afterwards. And then 332 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.279 you also, as you know, going forward a little bit in time, 333 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:10.880 you have the creation of the Special Operations Task Force SOTG, which brings in 334 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.480 the commandos. Could you talk to us a little bit about the role of 335 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:18.599 the commandos, you know, their history, their mission, and the rift 336 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.720 that developed between them and the SAS Yeah, I mean, you know, 337 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:30.279 most of my friends are within the Commander Regiment in their space. They are 338 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.480 a force, that is, they were designed to work hand in glove with 339 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:37.799 the SASR. Probably in the way I mean you definitely not better than Eye 340 00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:42.839 in the way that the Rangers were were they meant to be a cooperative force 341 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:48.720 with Jason. They were not initially stood up for that reason, but I 342 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.799 mean they kind of became that, right, They became When you need a 343 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:57.839 lot of manpower to do things that a small specialized unit can't do, Yeah, 344 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.200 you call the Rangers. Yeah, And did they work sometimes as a 345 00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:11.039 cordon force and or or direct action and direct actually to strike strike targets that 346 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:15.440 a small surgical, hostage rescue focused unit isn't necessarily set up for. Yeah, 347 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.680 I mean it sounds like you're describing the commandos, you know, the 348 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:25.519 commandos. There was a suggestion just before nine eleven actually that the Special Operations, 349 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:30.480 the Australia Special Operations Command, should be expanded because of the type of 350 00:26:30.799 --> 00:26:36.839 technological innovations that had come with the type of heavy weapons that can be carried 351 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.880 by by an individual, and by the type of the type of communications that 352 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:47.319 can be used. So they thought that the force structure would benefit from having 353 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:52.720 this sort of direct action you know, sort of hyper infantry style force that 354 00:26:52.759 --> 00:26:56.759 could work with the SASR. So they were they were starting to stood up 355 00:26:56.039 --> 00:27:00.160 be stood up around ninety nine two thousand and then two thousand and one there 356 00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:03.839 was an acceleration so they could bring the companies on board. Because they assumed 357 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:08.279 that the commandos might be used in the future. They were sent into Iraq. 358 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:15.240 The SASR we're doing a series of different things in the western desert of 359 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:21.960 Iraq, including scud hunting, and the commandos were meant to be their quick 360 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.480 reaction force. So they were just across the border at H two in Jordan, 361 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.400 and then they were actually never used, even though there were instances where 362 00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:32.599 they could have been used. And that I think is the moment where the 363 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:37.440 rift developed between the ss ARO and the commandos, because the SASR saw them 364 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:41.799 as this force that couldn't be trusted to go out and to be used, 365 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.759 whereas the commandos they thought they were ready, and they probably were ready. 366 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:48.400 You know, they've been training up on this close quarter battle. They've been 367 00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:53.279 they've been stood up for a couple of years at that point, and so 368 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.640 a lot of the guys within the commandos actually went off and worked as pmc's, 369 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.960 you know, especially a lot of the a lot of the sort of 370 00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:07.519 junior NCOs. But then Afghanistan happened, so the Special Operations Task Groups, 371 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:14.559 the Special Forces Task Group and then the Special Operations Task Group needed guys to 372 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:17.039 come into a risk and so a lot of the guys who had been working 373 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:22.839 as PMC sort of came in and that they couldn't get the two units to 374 00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.519 work cooperatively. There are times where they both that they were both on on 375 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:32.200 target at the same time, but primarily they they they didn't work together. 376 00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:34.599 And part of the issue was that, you know, there were fistfights in 377 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.680 the mess. There were you know, there were like people threatening to kill 378 00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.519 each other. You know, there were there was there was there was a 379 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:44.920 real rancher between between those you know, there was there was a lot of 380 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.519 fraternity between some of the some of the parts of those two of those two 381 00:28:48.599 --> 00:28:52.960 regiments, but but there was there was definitely animus as well, and I 382 00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.960 think part of the issue I was just going to point out. It should 383 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.640 probably be mentioned also that these two units were all pitted against each other by 384 00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:06.319 the Australian military in some ways. That you have two soft units. Eventually 385 00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.480 they're both given the direct action mission, so they're both competing for missions which 386 00:29:10.599 --> 00:29:15.319 only I imagine escalates the animosity. No, that's right. And then if 387 00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:18.079 you look at the SASR, you know they're doing this coordinate these coordinate search 388 00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.160 missions, and they're doing direct action as well, and they're not necessarily designed 389 00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:26.000 for that. You know, there are the four structures that they've meant to 390 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:32.640 be a sort of more surgical, and you are that they are Australia's elite 391 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:37.279 unit. Whereas they're doing something that the commandos are actually kind of like perfectly 392 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:41.000 built to do with their force structure. And so sometimes the commandos are sent 393 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:44.799 off to do things that the essays would like to do, but they're just 394 00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.400 just by dint of their force structure, the commandos are better suited to do 395 00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:53.400 it. And so then that creates this incredible resentment and the SASR see them 396 00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.759 as the little brothers and the commandos like, you know, our guys are 397 00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:02.160 dying. Also the dose, the which one. I know you've heard that 398 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:04.400 term, the doze, the dose, I haven't what of it? You 399 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:10.720 haven't that the sas guys call the commando's the does the dose? Can you 400 00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:15.640 spell it out? D oees like a female deer? Oh yeah, yeah, 401 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.839 the dose? Yeah, and the commandos call the SAS the poo poop 402 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:25.440 barrows. I've heard that. I mean, it's all a little sophomoreck. 403 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:30.200 Yes, but that's the thing fifteen years later and Sime, it's black and 404 00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:33.720 dead, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like super serious 405 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:36.759 stuff. Uh. And some guys did go over, you know, some 406 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:41.079 guys do the commando it work as commandos and then do selection and go within 407 00:30:41.119 --> 00:30:48.359 the SAS. But it never really it never really disappeared the animals between the 408 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:53.480 two units. Let's also talk a little bit at this point about some of 409 00:30:53.519 --> 00:31:00.240 the structural issues within the Australian Department of Defense. There's that's really interesting stuff 410 00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:03.039 in your book. I mean, you talk about a lot of breakdowns that 411 00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:10.200 happened, but one of them that especially strikes me is that it feels like 412 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:17.519 at some point civilian control of the military was lost and even commanders in the 413 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:22.279 military didn't understand what their own force was doing. Like there's one quote in 414 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.039 your book where I think you said it was the commander of Australians Special Operations 415 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:33.000 saying that capture kill missions are an invention of the media, which is either 416 00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:37.599 a lie or it just speaks to the complete obliviousness of the chain of command. 417 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:42.400 I can answer that it's a lie, okay, I mean, it's 418 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:48.079 a top the patrol reports. You know, it's like everybody knows the nomenclature. 419 00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:52.480 You know. The problem in Australia, I think at that time was 420 00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:59.160 that there was this culture of bullshit because Australia had to be involved in the 421 00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:04.880 war in that it was it was very important for us to be a good 422 00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.359 alliance partner with the US, and we always wanted to be a good alliance 423 00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:10.960 partner. We have always wanted to be a good alliance partner. Not only 424 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:15.519 that, when you go a little bit, a little bit further down the 425 00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:19.759 command structure, there was this technology transfer and this skill transfer that was happening 426 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:22.720 as well, because you know, we were eventually working as a sort of 427 00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:25.759 fungible software, so they were working as a fungible soft force. So they 428 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:31.519 were sort of from a modular perspective, becoming useful within an American structure, 429 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:34.839 which was which was good for the America. For the Australians, you know, 430 00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.480 they were they were up skilling very quickly. But the Australian public, 431 00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:45.640 the political class would not accept the Australians doing the things that the Americans were 432 00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:52.119 doing. You know, the major, the major thing that I sort of 433 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:57.559 lean on from an ethical perspective in the book is that the Australians were doing 434 00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:04.799 these kill capture missions and the ROW allowed them to directly target individuals, which 435 00:33:05.480 --> 00:33:09.359 is basically an assassination without any attempt to capture, whether they're uned or unarmed. 436 00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:15.799 There is no way that that would have been accepted if a politician explained 437 00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.279 to the Australian public that that was what was happening in Afghanistan. So there 438 00:33:19.319 --> 00:33:25.319 had to be this sort of top level, this sort of top level layer 439 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:31.160 of bullshit between public facing information from the highest people within government and within the 440 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:37.240 military saying that you know, this mission is really about you know, standing 441 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.880 up for an Afghan battalion, it's about protection of women's rights, it's about 442 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:45.079 all these things. Whereas all of those strategic goals had gone in Urazgan by 443 00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.400 probably about two thousand and nine, you know, like it just wasn't happening. 444 00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.519 You know, everybody on the ground knew that wasn't happening. Correct me 445 00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:58.640 if I'm wrong, band, But in your system, there is a a 446 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:01.279 Chief of Defense, which is a military officer, and there's a Minister of 447 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:06.920 Defense, which is a civilian. So when the civilian is saying, I 448 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:09.480 can't get information out of the military, I'm not getting all of the information 449 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.760 I need. I don't know what's going on. Is that a lie or 450 00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:17.280 is that part of that public facing propaganda if you will. Yeah, well, 451 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:22.239 I mean that's that's a direct quote from a defense minister who I interviewed 452 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:23.840 for the book, and that was one of two defense ministers who told me 453 00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:28.639 that they couldn't get information from from the military, and so, you know, 454 00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.159 in a democracy that's completely unacceptable. But I think I think the Department 455 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:37.920 and the ministry there were some things that they didn't want to know, so 456 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:42.119 they had they'd sort of punted on some information. You know, they had 457 00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:46.519 empowered the military to do certain things without any understanding and oversight, and then 458 00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:52.199 when they do want information, they have already they've already created this system where 459 00:34:52.239 --> 00:34:57.000 it's difficult for the ministry to get information. So the ministry has plausible deniability 460 00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.119 and it's the same as the Department as well. This is this is speculation, 461 00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:01.559 but this is this is the way that this is I think one of 462 00:35:01.559 --> 00:35:07.159 the issues. So, yeah, there wasn't there was a major issue. 463 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.159 There may well still be a major issue within the Australian government that there isn't 464 00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:14.679 as much civilian oversight as there should be. But to go back to my 465 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.920 point of that sort of layer of bullshit that we were at the top that 466 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:21.039 sort of dripped through all the way down to the ground. You know, 467 00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:27.159 like as long as we're already not being transparent about our strategic goals and so 468 00:35:27.280 --> 00:35:32.800 then when we're not transparent about what are what the specific types of missions are, 469 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.199 and then we're not specific with patrol reporting, you know, so just 470 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:45.679 dripped all the way down. So moving on to some some spicy content here, 471 00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:52.639 not not not particularly lawyer exactly not not not not a particularly great moment 472 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.280 for the s. A S tell us about the moment that they were flying 473 00:35:55.280 --> 00:36:01.199 a swastika in Afghanistan that was actually the Mandos. Oh it was identified that 474 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.719 book. Yeah, okay, thank you for for having so. Yeah, 475 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:15.159 they were out on operations, and I mean there has been this this issue 476 00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:20.039 within I mean, the soldiers probably wouldn't necessarily said as a problem, but 477 00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:28.360 there is this sort of impunity within some certain some some of the units in 478 00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:30.480 that there were rules that were allowed to be bent and rules that were allowed 479 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:35.079 to be broken. Like one of the obvious ones is drinking. So the 480 00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.960 Essay has had a bar in tarn Cott. You know, they're not meant 481 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:39.000 to be drinking, and they have a bar, and all the generals went 482 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.519 there, you know, like everybody went to the to the bar. They 483 00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.719 actually famously in the book one of the one of the sort of signature war 484 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:51.400 crimes. One of the things that's being contested in this defamation case at the 485 00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:58.000 moment is whether there was an execution of a disabled Afghan who had a who 486 00:36:58.039 --> 00:37:02.079 had a prosthetic leg. Yeah, and then that ends up becoming a drinking 487 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:08.280 vessel in the bar that the SASR had, So that was sort of allowed. 488 00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:13.519 So nobody really knew where the line was, and so somebody thought that 489 00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:19.280 the line allowed swastikas to be flat on operations. I was told by lots 490 00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.159 of people that it was a joke. But then I've subsequently learned that that 491 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:27.400 guy was actually a Nazi and part of a a sort of Nazi group, 492 00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.280 another regiment before he came to this prest operations man. I very much doubt 493 00:37:31.280 --> 00:37:38.519 that the other guys around him, you know, were of that of that, 494 00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:43.519 but they certainly saw it. They certainly saw it. Yeah, they 495 00:37:43.599 --> 00:37:45.440 saw it. Yeah, And that one of the other issues with that photograph 496 00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:51.440 is there's a major there who ended up becoming a very senior soldier and was 497 00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:52.880 was someone who was on a track to end up being chief of chief of 498 00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:59.119 Defense. And the guys that I spoke to about that major, I said, 499 00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:00.760 well, you know, why didn't he and the men why did he 500 00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:02.360 stop him from doing it? And he's like, well, he didn't. 501 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:05.880 Necessarily he didn't like it. He was obviously upset about it, but he 502 00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:08.159 didn't feel at the time that he could he could reign in a sergeant in 503 00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:13.239 that way, which is which is a problem that That's a perfect segue because 504 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:19.440 I want to ask you next about officers losing control of the SAS and how 505 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.880 that kind of came about. Yeah, I mean, one of the problems 506 00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.119 with the officers in the SAS is that they come in and out of the 507 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:30.639 regiment, and having having a successful, successful period in the s a SR 508 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:37.079 is hugely important for your career, especially if when you're on you know, 509 00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:42.480 on a sort of combat deployment. You know that really is your opportunity for 510 00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.960 advancement in Korea and and chances for medals, and you know, having that 511 00:38:46.000 --> 00:38:52.519 on your on your resume is hugely important. And within the Australian military there 512 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:57.119 there has been a long succession of people who have gone through the sas and 513 00:38:57.119 --> 00:39:01.559 then have gone up to even to the point of ar chief are are governor 514 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:06.679 General who's you know, the most senior person of the government is a former 515 00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:12.280 Essays officer. So it's very important for an officer to have a successful deployment. 516 00:39:12.519 --> 00:39:15.559 But if you have your your you know, your your sergeants and your 517 00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:20.280 corporals in open revolt because they're upset about the things that you're doing. And 518 00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.679 these are guys who have sort of set the tone and have a greater understanding 519 00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:27.119 of what the ground truth is, then that's gonna that's going to be a 520 00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:31.960 problem in your career. So that that that means that officers who want to 521 00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:37.000 go against something that may be unethical would take a massive amount of moral courage. 522 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:39.599 You would have to go against the entire system. You know, like 523 00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:44.440 if you're out, if you the special Operations task groups are relatively small. 524 00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.000 So if you're an officer and you you think that one of your patrols is 525 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:51.840 doing the wrong thing and you run them in or you bring in you know 526 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:55.800 charges or the I G. A d F, which is basically our you 527 00:39:55.880 --> 00:40:00.440 know, our military police. To investigate these types of things, you've probably 528 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:04.559 create a seaesops. So you might even create like a political issue, right, 529 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:08.599 So it was it was incredibly tough for the officers to do that. 530 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:13.960 But then before that they actually have to understand what's happening in the first place. 531 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.679 So quite often they're in this sort of like overwatch position, you know, 532 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.559 they're not necessarily on the ground. You know, with this defamation case, 533 00:40:19.599 --> 00:40:23.159 we had a lot of officers coming in in instances where there had been 534 00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.800 suspected war crimes and they're like, I don't know it blew in and there 535 00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:30.440 were some dead people. You know, what can I tell you? In 536 00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:35.639 the book, you talk about how the sas came to have a tribal culture. 537 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:37.800 I mean, one of the operators you spoke to described it as a 538 00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:44.840 ward of the Flies culture where they were sharing kill videos with one one another, 539 00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:52.000 where there was even there's this kind of stone walling of any acknowledgment of 540 00:40:52.119 --> 00:40:57.360 PTSD within the regiment. Can tell us about how that developed. Yeah, 541 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.199 that I think that quote it might actually go from the the unit psychologist of 542 00:41:01.239 --> 00:41:06.519 the s A s R. But the that that sort of linger culture, 543 00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:09.840 that's the that's how they would describe people who would suggest that they had a 544 00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:15.599 PTSD issue. A linger means that you're a malingerer, you know, so 545 00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:17.920 you're you're not taking on the duties that that you should be taking on, 546 00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:23.079 and you're you're basically letting everyone down. The the the way that it was 547 00:41:23.119 --> 00:41:29.119 described to me over and over again is like a motorcycle gang. You know, 548 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:31.559 it's like you do not break the trust of the guys within the motorcycle 549 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:37.719 gang. But then also coercive violence is something that that that was kind of 550 00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:42.199 enforced a certain structure there as well, So you know, guys could be 551 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.559 beaten, guys could be slapped, it could be for some people it could 552 00:41:45.559 --> 00:41:51.079 feel dangerous breaking outside of that code of silence. And there was an instance 553 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:55.199 in Australia where somebody's house got blown up because they had fallen off out of 554 00:41:55.239 --> 00:42:01.440 this this code of silence. I don't necessarily understand how it developed, but 555 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:06.719 there were people who who sort of talked to me about coming into that that 556 00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.480 environment, because when you come into Campbell Barracks and you come into into the 557 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:15.119 regiment, you know, that's that's the top of your career, whether you're 558 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:16.760 a whether you're an operator, or whether you're an officer, or whether it's 559 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:21.559 a physio or whatever you are. You know, especially in a in a 560 00:42:21.599 --> 00:42:23.920 time of war, you really want to do the best job, you know, 561 00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:27.760 and everybody's super intense, and you're like, that's okay, I understand 562 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:29.920 this because this is the time of war, so I want to do the 563 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:34.320 best job. But there were there were, like you said, there was 564 00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:38.079 this that the psychologist described it to me as a sort of tinder box ready 565 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:42.519 to be ready to blow. You know, the fact that there were a 566 00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:45.960 lot of instances of domestic violence, a lot of people getting super drunk, 567 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.119 a lot of people assaulting people at pubs, a lot of like death porn 568 00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:52.679 being shared as well, like sort of weird snuff porn, a lot of 569 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.920 kill videos, a lot of photos of you know, heads being blown off 570 00:42:57.920 --> 00:43:01.519 and stuff like that. Like at some point a sort of responsible adultshire to 571 00:43:01.559 --> 00:43:04.599 come down and said, Okay, we kind of need to we need to 572 00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.559 clean this up for the benefit of the people who were in this structure, 573 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:10.199 you know, not to be not to be a dick about it and tell 574 00:43:10.239 --> 00:43:14.480 everyone, hey, you know you're all getting detention, but just this is 575 00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:15.880 going to be healthier for everybody, and we're going to be more effective as 576 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:19.920 a fighting unit if you did clean this stuff up. You've writ in the 577 00:43:19.920 --> 00:43:23.559 book about how as time goes on, the culture of the unit changes and 578 00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:29.360 guys are sort of deferring on advancing their career because they just want to be 579 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:32.800 gunfighters, like they've gotten addicted to the combat. Yeah. Well, I 580 00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:37.480 mean the idea is that you know, you're a patrol commander and then you 581 00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:38.480 sort of work your way up and you become a warrant officer, and you 582 00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:43.760 sort of spread the you know, the the experience that you've had across the 583 00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.800 regiment and sometimes across the military as well. You know, it's meant to 584 00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:50.800 be it's meant to be an area of excellence, and it is an area 585 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.079 of excellence where they can go out into the Greater Defense Force and sort of 586 00:43:54.119 --> 00:44:00.440 bring some of that excellence with them. But because I think so many of 587 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:07.480 the guys became addicted to the combat and we don't have any any sort of 588 00:44:07.480 --> 00:44:13.639 solid numbers on what the level of PTSD is. But you know, there's 589 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:19.159 a psychologist explains to me that he said, you know, we the literature 590 00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:23.239 that we have suggest that it's not accumulative. It multiplies. And so when 591 00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:27.400 you've got guys who've done these sort of eight, nine, ten combat deployments 592 00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:30.719 and that is the number that guys ended up doing. SASI guys, you 593 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:34.840 know, and I can imagine similar to the Americans as well. You know, 594 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.079 so they're in these sort of you know, intense environments for you know, 595 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:42.920 ten deployments might be six months each, you know, it's five years, 596 00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.880 like it's a super intense thing to do. They just want to go 597 00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:50.719 back in because that's a place where they feel comfortable. They start to feel 598 00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:54.199 uncomfortable in a civilian environment. And there was that was the case of the 599 00:44:54.239 --> 00:44:58.519 commanders as well. There was lots of guys who's you know, their lives 600 00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:01.639 were forming a bar to a certain extent outside of the outside of their deployments. 601 00:45:01.639 --> 00:45:06.239 You know, they're having problems with their wives or you know, their 602 00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:08.360 friends, they didn't relate to their friends anymore, or you know, so 603 00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:14.159 they just wanted to get back out, and you know, just being a 604 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:20.320 warrant officer and you know working at working at QCB course for the rest of 605 00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:25.119 your life is not as exciting. Yeah right right. Tell us a little 606 00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:30.599 bit about the one Commando operation in two thousand and nine where it's sort of 607 00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:35.679 like the first time I if I'm understanding correctly that the issue of war crime 608 00:45:35.760 --> 00:45:39.920 starts coming into the public, like there are some aspects where they might prosecute 609 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:45.159 this guy they might not. Yeah, yeah, that was that. That 610 00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:47.920 was a sort of a very important, sort of forgotten part of the Australian 611 00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:52.440 war crime story. So by two thousand and nine, we'd had three years 612 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:59.559 of these at these deployments of commandos and SASR, and you know, everybody 613 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:04.079 was getting tagged, and you know, they basically needed to re up some 614 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.920 of the guys who they were bringing into the Second Commando Regiment especially and and 615 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:12.320 the s s R. So they decided to do a deployment of one Commando 616 00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:20.159 guys who are reservists. This is this is Australia's oldest continuous Special Forces regiment, 617 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.119 but they hadn't been used in operations for such a long time. So 618 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.840 a lot of these guys, you know, some of them are soldiers full 619 00:46:27.880 --> 00:46:30.000 times. Some of them are policemen, you know, some of them are 620 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:36.559 have other jobs. And so they did they did pre deployment readiness, which 621 00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:40.719 supposedly was was a little lacking, and then they were they were sent to 622 00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:45.280 Uruzgan and then they were they were doing the hill cap trovisions. So there 623 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:51.239 was there was a house actually again in the place where you know Chare and 624 00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:53.519 Blueci and I think it was into actually direction, so it was very close 625 00:46:53.559 --> 00:46:58.360 to to taren Cott and they were going to be this compound of interest, 626 00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:01.480 and they were good night mission. I think it was midnight, two am 627 00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:05.599 something like that, and they go to this house and they find it empty, 628 00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:08.840 and so they decide that they're going to just go to the house next 629 00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:15.639 door and do that house instead, which they had already had. There was 630 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:19.559 an ESAP order that that was they were not allowed to do that. You 631 00:47:19.599 --> 00:47:23.960 wanted just allowed to go into an adjacent compound because you had some intelligence about 632 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:29.440 a certain compound. Anyway, so they went into this house, you know, 633 00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:34.239 and this is something that you have to be sort of relatively legally wary 634 00:47:34.280 --> 00:47:38.559 about. But I think it's uncontroversial that there was a guy who was there 635 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:45.360 with his family. He heard someone breaking into his compound. He got his 636 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.679 rifle. One of the soldiers saw him, they shot him, and then 637 00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:53.119 they hadn't killed him. He was shooting through a door. A machine gunner 638 00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:59.159 fired into the room where him and his family were. And then afterwards this 639 00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:05.000 is the the part that is somewhat controversial, as there some some have suggested 640 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:09.000 that there was a ceasefire call, some have suggested that they were still shooting. 641 00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:15.800 You know, it's contentious, but grenades were thrown in and some babies 642 00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:22.639 were killed and some children were killed. The most interesting aspect of that is 643 00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:27.519 what happened next. At the time, the Australian military had this independent judiciary 644 00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:30.480 that was beyond the chain of command. So there was a brigadier who got 645 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:35.280 a brief from the IGADF and believed that this was a war crime, and 646 00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:37.960 so she was going to prosecute the guys, and she was going to prosecute 647 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:43.639 Lieutenant colonel who ordered the second house to be to be assaulted. And so 648 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:47.000 she tried to go through this prosecution and the Australian media were very upset by 649 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:52.519 it, and the chain of command were very upset by it, and eventually 650 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.880 she was chased out of the army and there was there was a ruling that 651 00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.760 was made in court that previously it was assumed that the soldiers owed a duty 652 00:49:00.800 --> 00:49:06.599 of care to civilians in Uruzgan, and then a ruling was passed down that 653 00:49:06.679 --> 00:49:13.000 there was no obligation to have duty of care for civilians. And she was 654 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:16.400 quite upset by this. This this brigadier who was who was the chief legal 655 00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:19.719 officer of the Australian Defense Force at the time, and she said that she 656 00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:23.960 thought that they were creating new law with this ruling. And yeah, the 657 00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:30.280 guys that didn't end up being prosecuted, and so that that was the standing 658 00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:35.280 rule afterwards that the Australian forces did not have an obligation of judio care over 659 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:42.039 civilians. And then another controversial operation was an assault. I believe the target 660 00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.920 was called Whiskey one o eight. Yeah, well Whiskey went Away. It 661 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:50.679 was one where the guy with the prosthetic leg was was shot. So that's 662 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:55.760 something that's under appeal at the moment. So it had been alleged that there 663 00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.480 was an assault on Whiskey one o eight. There was fighting going on between 664 00:50:00.599 --> 00:50:06.000 the conventional forces who had a patrol based very close to that compound and guys 665 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:08.079 who were there in that village which was ration as well, So it was 666 00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:13.360 it was really close to the place where there's these one commando killings that happened 667 00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:16.760 and where so much of the so much of the Australian war crime story happens, 668 00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:20.880 despite the fact that it's this time in area with with with not that 669 00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:27.280 many people living there. They there had been a battle, they called in 670 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:31.679 an air strike. They've blown up a compound. The Sas come in and 671 00:50:32.599 --> 00:50:38.480 they either kill these legally or don't kill them legally. But there were there 672 00:50:38.480 --> 00:50:42.400 were news reports saying that they hadn't killed them legally. The Bender of the 673 00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:46.639 Smith had either executed or ordered the execution of a couple of these guys, 674 00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:52.519 including this guy with the prosthetic leg and yeah, they'd under apeal at the 675 00:50:52.519 --> 00:51:00.400 moment. So that's that's that's the first instance of SAS murders being reported happened, 676 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:04.119 I think in two thousand and nine out of curiosity, you know, 677 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:08.360 kind of lent or I guess, leading into the idea that maybe he was 678 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:13.559 or wasn't executed. Who was he or who do they think he was? 679 00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:19.800 Like was he just yeah, Was he just a random guy on target or 680 00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:25.719 did they think that he was somebody who had been evading capture and that local 681 00:51:27.000 --> 00:51:32.960 forces wouldn't hold well? In that defamation case, somebody actually suggested that he 682 00:51:34.159 --> 00:51:38.440 was a jpel target and he was objective zyphoid, and he kept explosives. 683 00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:44.559 He was known for keeping explosives in his prosthetic leg. I think we can 684 00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:49.079 fairly safely discount yeah, that was the case. I don't think he was 685 00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:52.760 that Bond villain. But he and the other guy who was killed in his 686 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:58.960 sumb is the center of this defamation case. They had come out of a 687 00:51:58.960 --> 00:52:04.000 tunnel and in the there were weapons. The major issue in her as again 688 00:52:04.079 --> 00:52:07.199 though, is that you know they were they were almost certainly local militia. 689 00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:13.760 But were they and they were probably local militia who are shooting at the Australian 690 00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:19.480 conventional forces. But you know, do you want to kill all of your 691 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:23.079 local militia who agreed by putting up a patrol base village question? And the 692 00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:27.719 only reason I asked is and it's not to justify a killing if if the 693 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.920 killing is true. But I'm curious because there were In my mind there was 694 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:35.880 like a significant difference between a killing of a guy who just happens to be 695 00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:39.159 on a target or you know, in a house nest target and killing a 696 00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:46.039 guy who is a suspected ID maker who has been rolled up a few times 697 00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:50.760 and released every time. And again I'm not justifying it. I'm just asking 698 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:55.079 if there was something in their mind that for them that justified it. Well, 699 00:52:55.119 --> 00:53:00.360 that's that's the difference between an ethical question of the legal question, right, 700 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:04.719 you know, because you know, regardless of whether this person's a civilian 701 00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.119 or whether whether they were had been previously a combat, once the person is 702 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:12.199 sourced to combat, if you kill him, then that's merger exactly. So 703 00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:19.159 I think, I mean my instinct that is that the Australians were not just 704 00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:22.280 randomly killing people on target. There may have been a couple of instances where 705 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:23.840 they did, because they got later on in the war they believed that there 706 00:53:23.840 --> 00:53:28.719 were places where they were just full of shit people. They just they call 707 00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:30.960 them shit cuns, you know, and in certain incant villages it's just like 708 00:53:31.000 --> 00:53:35.039 all the guys in this in this village of shit cums. And I don't 709 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:38.760 know whether you're following the British inquiry that's going on at the moment, But 710 00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:45.519 there has been evidence profit that the British says, in hellmant In some villages 711 00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:51.599 killed every finding age male that they could find on certain targets. But I 712 00:53:51.639 --> 00:54:00.000 think primarily the Australian says, if they had killed people illegally, they generally 713 00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:06.480 believed that they that they were were combatants. But yeah, oh go ahead, 714 00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:10.280 please, well no, from my perspective, one of the major issues 715 00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:15.719 of Australian operations in Neuroscam was an over aggregation of the enemy. You know, 716 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:19.840 I think that you have to be very selective, you know, in 717 00:54:19.880 --> 00:54:22.519 coin operations as to who you decide to target, and I think there was 718 00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:28.440 a sort of maximal approach sometimes in regards to some places. Yeah, and 719 00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:34.679 again like talking about like the legal versity ethical, I absolutely agree with you. 720 00:54:35.119 --> 00:54:39.119 It's just you know, sometimes it's when it's reported that a somebody was 721 00:54:39.199 --> 00:54:45.000 killed, you know, somebody was killed in custody. Yeah, a lot 722 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:46.960 of times I think there's a deeper story to it than just you know, 723 00:54:47.039 --> 00:54:53.480 these guys are savage, you know, or the Coalition Forces US Australian whoever, 724 00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:58.599 are just savages off the rails in their minds, even though it's not 725 00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:01.920 legal, in their minds, it makes sense. I think there probably were 726 00:55:01.960 --> 00:55:07.039 some people who had white luft, and I think there are a lot of 727 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.519 people who who perhaps thought they were doing the right thing. But from a 728 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:14.239 strategic perspective, it's not a smart thing to do. You know, you're 729 00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:16.760 not getting closer to your strategic goal. If your strategic goal is pacification, 730 00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:22.280 right, you know, if your strategic goal is you know, getting a 731 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:27.679 paddle of the back from a certain person who wanted to kill as many people 732 00:55:27.719 --> 00:55:30.719 as possible, then that's different. And that's why I've been arguing for there 733 00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:35.840 to be a Royal commission in Australia into these killings, because I think that 734 00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:40.199 they've poorly understood, and I think that we should understand the link between the 735 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:45.119 civilian structure of the Department and the Ministry Special Operations Command and the soldiers on 736 00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:50.800 the ground, because I think there is this sort of connected picture that doesn't 737 00:55:50.840 --> 00:55:54.639 exist in the public consciousness in the way that it should. And there's a 738 00:55:54.679 --> 00:56:00.840 real scenario in these wars that I think, you know, Western societies were 739 00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:04.840 not read for or ready for in the sense of, you know, if 740 00:56:04.880 --> 00:56:07.480 you take like an id maker, a bomb maker who never places the bombs 741 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:13.360 himself. He pays farmers. He gets rolled up because of the local justice 742 00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:16.840 and you know how it is, he gets bought out of jail every time 743 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:22.159 he gets rolled up, and then he hits coalition forces. He's known for 744 00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:24.159 the risk the death. It's like, how many times do you want to 745 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:28.800 roll this guy up just from the released over and over again. And I 746 00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:32.639 think that a lot of the soldiers on the ground got frustrated in those situations, 747 00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:37.480 like how he is an enemy commandant. He may not be shooting at 748 00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:40.679 me right now, but he'll sure as hell blow me up tomorrow. Yeah. 749 00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:44.400 Yeah, And that's definitely the issue in allstrlim you know, there's there's 750 00:56:44.400 --> 00:56:46.559 a che There's a chapter in the book and I described the sort of porous 751 00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:51.599 Afghan justice structure, right and the fact that you know, there was this 752 00:56:51.679 --> 00:56:55.039 sort of you know, this ability to certain people to take people out of 753 00:56:55.119 --> 00:57:00.239 the legal the legal system, the Afghan legal system, you know, unitarily 754 00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:04.000 just because of the power that they had, and then recycle them back into 755 00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:08.639 the battlefield. And there was an incredibly admirable effort by some of the Australian 756 00:57:09.800 --> 00:57:14.480 Army lawyers and some of the soldiers and the reservists to create this thing called 757 00:57:14.480 --> 00:57:17.400 the Rule of Law Cell. So they tried to they tried to sort of 758 00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:21.639 train a lot of the soldiers, the SS guys, and the commandos to 759 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:24.679 basically work as forensic investigators and then build up the courts so they could get 760 00:57:24.679 --> 00:57:28.639 the prosecutions. And part of the reason, there's a quote in the book 761 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:30.119 from one of the guys who were setting up this Rule of Law cell saying, 762 00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:32.440 you know, we thought it was a good thing to do to the 763 00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:36.920 soldiers because you know, it's just not good for the soul to be endlessly 764 00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:39.239 killing these people. And had this rage about these people who are combatants and 765 00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:44.400 were not legally allowed to kill them. But from my perspective as a civilian, 766 00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:46.320 so this is something that I sort of stress over and over again. 767 00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:52.679 Is I am just I'm just an impartial observer. Sure, if I was 768 00:57:52.719 --> 00:57:58.280 a soldier, I'd have a completely different perspective, I'm sure, But from 769 00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:01.159 a civilian's arms length, look at this thing. If that is the case 770 00:58:01.159 --> 00:58:04.519 that we are recycling these guys, and then the guys are like, fuck 771 00:58:04.519 --> 00:58:07.880 it, we have to kill them, you know, we have to protect 772 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:10.000 those guys from doing that, because if they do that, they may be 773 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:13.639 subject to Australian laws that might put them in prison for the rest of their 774 00:58:13.639 --> 00:58:16.320 life. Right, And if we are doing that, we have to articulate 775 00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:20.639 to the public, these are why we're killing these people, this is why 776 00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:22.039 we're doing it, and we have to link it all the way up to 777 00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:25.960 some sort of strategic goal that makes sense for Australia. And I think they 778 00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:30.840 failed in that obbligation. Ben, could you tell us a little bit about 779 00:58:30.880 --> 00:58:37.719 the SAS's undeclared fourth Squadron. I thought that was an interesting fact in your 780 00:58:37.719 --> 00:58:40.719 book. Yeah. I mean, I actually don't know that much about four 781 00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:45.000 squadrons, but I have spoken to some of the guys and they can't talk 782 00:58:45.239 --> 00:58:51.199 to me that much about it. But it's sort of an intelligence gathering squadron, 783 00:58:51.840 --> 00:58:57.159 you know. They are sort of the most technologically capable of the squadrons, 784 00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:00.840 and it's they have this gray role, you know, it's not a 785 00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.239 bit sort of it's meant to be a sort of clandestine role as well. 786 00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:09.480 So one of the tensions that they had within the SBS while they were on 787 00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:14.880 operations in Afghanistan when there were so many guys in operations in Afghanistan was that 788 00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:19.239 they only had so many soldiers. You know, it's a relatively small regiment, 789 00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:22.440 but they were trying to bring these guys into this gray role. So 790 00:59:23.239 --> 00:59:29.000 it's the issue started at selection. So say it's two thousand and nine and 791 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:31.079 you're in the middle of war in Afghanistan, and you know that you know 792 00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:35.960 when you have someone that you have selected and then you're going to put them 793 00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:38.119 in the rear cycle, that they're going to go into combat with guys like 794 00:59:38.159 --> 00:59:44.719 Ben Robert Smith against you know, the opposing forces in Uruzgan. You want 795 00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:49.199 them to have the capabilities to succeed in that environment. So one of the 796 00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:53.519 guys in the book describes the tension within selection there is because you know, 797 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:59.360 we want these big, scary gunfighters to do this type of direct action stuff, 798 01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:01.880 and so we are selecting for that, and we're selecting for these sort 799 01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:07.719 of like ruthless killers, you know, these Cameron bed types actually sort of 800 01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:14.320 frankly within the SAS, but there is there is there is a tension because 801 01:00:14.360 --> 01:00:17.800 there's people within the SAS that are looking at the sort of strategic future of 802 01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:22.639 the regiment and they're like, well, we need these sort of weedy dorks 803 01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:24.719 who just you know, can walk on any street and just don't look like 804 01:00:24.840 --> 01:00:30.400 anyone. You know, like Ben Roberts Smith. There's only certain environments in 805 01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:31.400 which he can sort of walk down the street and look normal. I don't 806 01:00:31.400 --> 01:00:34.559 know whether you guys are familiar with him, but he's you know, six 807 01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:37.079 or five, one hundred and twenty kilos something like that. You know, 808 01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:40.079 he's a giant. He looks like a v SER recipient. He looks like 809 01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:44.760 a soldier, you know, whereas you need these guys who are going to 810 01:00:44.800 --> 01:00:50.079 be sort of low pro so, even from a perspective of selection and the 811 01:00:50.119 --> 01:00:55.000 way that the sas they rotate through to four Squadron and then also to the 812 01:00:55.360 --> 01:01:00.719 the can terrorism tag, had the ability you need someone who could sort of 813 01:01:00.760 --> 01:01:05.599 do everything. So they were selecting for these guys in Afghanistan and the other 814 01:01:05.719 --> 01:01:08.199 issues that they that they found. And this is something that one of the 815 01:01:08.239 --> 01:01:13.559 people who's doing selection was, you know, he was doing the psych screening 816 01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:15.840 for these guys. Is that they were they were trying to weed out as 817 01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:20.239 many as they can, but they weren't weeding out everybody who wanted to hunt 818 01:01:20.280 --> 01:01:22.159 and kill people because they knew that that's what they were doing in Afghanistan. 819 01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:27.239 So there were people who select who were selecting who were going into the SAS 820 01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:30.920 because they knew at some point they'd be able to go on target and start 821 01:01:30.960 --> 01:01:36.480 doing this this these kill capture missions. So there's an interesting sort of vignette 822 01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:40.079 that maybe not a lot of people are aware of where the Special Operations Task 823 01:01:40.159 --> 01:01:46.480 Group do Australian Special Operations for USS. They have a team up with DA 824 01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:52.079 American Drug Enforcement Agency Fast Teams in Afghanistan. Can you tell us about that 825 01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:58.079 relationship? Yeah, I mean that came of that came the tension between the 826 01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:02.360 SAS and the second commander. There was a lot of there was a lot 827 01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:07.239 of contention as to who would get the air assets because Australia didn't bring its 828 01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:09.880 own air assets into Afghanistan, so we had to use we had to use 829 01:02:09.880 --> 01:02:15.360 pool helicopters and pull ISR and so there would be these air windows where the 830 01:02:15.519 --> 01:02:17.880 SAS would go and they'd have their air window, you know, so they'd 831 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:22.360 take their helicopters out into ambisions and then there were periods where the commandos had 832 01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:24.360 their air window and you know, if there was bad weather or something like 833 01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:28.079 that, and somebody missed the day. You know, the regiments them not 834 01:02:28.159 --> 01:02:31.280 hating each other because you know, somebody else would get their helicopters, and 835 01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:36.800 so the commandos are like, well, we need to find our own helicopters. 836 01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:39.800 So I think I have told this story. I can't remember all the 837 01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:45.559 details, but I think it was actually at a funeral, someone met someone 838 01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:47.400 within the DEA and the DA said, you know, we're running our own 839 01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:52.599 helicopters. You know, we have you know, these old Russian helicopters, 840 01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:54.920 and we have these guys that we call the expendables, you know who these 841 01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:58.320 sort of like some of them, some of them flew in Vietnam, you 842 01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:00.960 know, these these sort of contract pilots that are working for the DA. 843 01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:05.079 So why don't you come and work as gunfighters for us? And it was 844 01:03:05.639 --> 01:03:10.280 this really fruitful relationship in the context of they managed to destroy a lot of 845 01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:14.000 drugs, They managed to attack a lot of a lot of drug labs. 846 01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:16.920 You know that there was a lot of fighting. But there has been a 847 01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:22.400 lot of questions as to whether that actually I mean, the idea was that 848 01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:27.360 they were going to take money away from the insurgency that's why they were doing 849 01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:30.760 these drug missions. But there has been a lot of suggestions since that that 850 01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:37.840 basically they were just working for the benefit of other drug laws who weren't being 851 01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:43.199 attacked. Oh interesting, but like intentionally, or that the other drug lawyers 852 01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:45.760 were just feeding them the intel so that they would go like take out them. 853 01:03:45.800 --> 01:03:47.840 Some of them were feeding in the intel. Some of them had political 854 01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:52.400 connections, you know, especially connections to the Karzai family, you know, 855 01:03:52.599 --> 01:03:58.559 people who had who were working with the coalition in Uruzgan and Helman. Because 856 01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:03.280 most of these missions were conductive in the Helmant, but they were I mean, 857 01:04:03.320 --> 01:04:09.079 there's this this sort of leads into the or goes back to the political 858 01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.960 disconnect. You know. I think if the Australian public really knew the way 859 01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:16.360 that these drug missions worked and the way that the DA worked, they probably 860 01:04:16.400 --> 01:04:20.239 wouldn't have allowed it, especially considering that we had this strict mission and the 861 01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:26.280 strict parameters under which the Australians could operate. But there was there was this 862 01:04:26.440 --> 01:04:30.800 sort of tendency towards action. So the commandos went and did these missions and 863 01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:32.440 you know, and there was a lot of action. They really enjoyed it 864 01:04:33.800 --> 01:04:38.679 for you know, were they were the Australians under the same structures like the 865 01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:42.400 U S forces in terms of like the capture kill. If they're captured, 866 01:04:42.440 --> 01:04:47.119 would they just go into basically a coalition detention facility or to the local authorities 867 01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:53.639 or what. Did the Australians have something else set up? No, yeah, 868 01:04:53.639 --> 01:04:56.360 they had their own, They had their own their own facility later on, 869 01:04:56.519 --> 01:05:00.199 but then they would go into into local tension afterwards because they had to 870 01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:05.800 go through Afghan courts. Going back to the drug missions, the drug missions, 871 01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:09.719 they had a certain rule of engagement. They certain set of rules of 872 01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:15.599 engagement was distinct to the other missions that they were doing. And I don't 873 01:05:15.639 --> 01:05:18.360 know you guys, Are you guys familiar with the ros that the ISAC was 874 01:05:18.440 --> 01:05:23.760 using in Afghanistan? I assume you would. I mean relatively. So there 875 01:05:23.800 --> 01:05:28.079 were different change all the time, So like they changed like week to week. 876 01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:31.159 Do you know? So there's four twenty nine ROE four twenty nine A 877 01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:38.000 and B, which are the offensive ros as is my understanding, And then 878 01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:43.440 is there four twenty nine ROI E which is the direct targeting ROI. Basically, 879 01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:46.480 honestly, I, honest to God, could not tell you. And 880 01:05:46.599 --> 01:05:51.079 those ROS became so complicated. From what I've been told, it was like 881 01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:56.320 a stack of three ring binders this high, and a very very small group 882 01:05:56.360 --> 01:06:00.760 of people really had any mostly j Tax actually had any sort of understanding of 883 01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:04.599 how they were. And I think that the r's actually differed. Uh there's 884 01:06:04.599 --> 01:06:10.400 a NATO, Yeah different there. Yeah, there's soft ROI, so they 885 01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:14.559 also differ from unit to unit. It was it was insane. It was 886 01:06:14.639 --> 01:06:16.719 insane. That's crazy. Yeah, I mean that's something that that they that 887 01:06:17.000 --> 01:06:20.199 there is speculation that that's going to pop up in in the criminal cases. 888 01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:25.119 You know, there has been one essays got charge for murder and it's on 889 01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:28.960 video. I'm sure you guys have seen its standing out in Afghani says do 890 01:06:28.960 --> 01:06:31.280 you want me to drop this count and kills him, and there is speculation 891 01:06:31.480 --> 01:06:35.800 that they're going to mount the defense that they believe that that killing was within 892 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:43.159 a certain r OI as it was explained to them. That's part of the 893 01:06:43.440 --> 01:06:47.320 Australian issue is that everybody has told me what they believed the ro O E 894 01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:51.400 that they were operating under was, and quite often it's quite different. I 895 01:06:51.719 --> 01:06:58.519 honestly don't outside of like outside of like Jack mentioned, the g tax because 896 01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:02.280 the G tax like their job depending on note dependent on knowing the roes, 897 01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:08.079 because they were waiting, like their fire came from higher headquarters right who were 898 01:07:08.440 --> 01:07:12.199 who the attorneys were sitting there for. But for the average joe on the 899 01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:15.000 ground, whether it was SAS or Tenth Mountain or Special Forces or whatever. 900 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:21.119 They they have their general roes like you don't you know, you don't shoot 901 01:07:21.199 --> 01:07:27.440 somebody who is a non combatant like they have the general. But at any 902 01:07:27.480 --> 01:07:30.400 given time they could have been breaking ro O s because they've changed a little, 903 01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:34.679 a little vignette. I mean I I was deployed with Special Forces in 904 01:07:34.760 --> 01:07:39.480 two thousand and it was two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine. 905 01:07:40.599 --> 01:07:44.559 I never saw an ROE. Yeah, we we asked for one too, 906 01:07:44.639 --> 01:07:46.719 Yeah, and we were never giving it for people who are watching, listening, 907 01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:49.760 who aren't, who might not you can probably get it from context, 908 01:07:50.000 --> 01:07:55.519 but are r O E is a rule rules of engagement and it basically tells 909 01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:02.199 a soldier why they can shoot at another person. And you would think it 910 01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:08.440 seems like a simple question, but but it gets very very convoluted. It 911 01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:13.039 becomes like how big is the structure? Can the structure be reduced. You 912 01:08:13.119 --> 01:08:16.640 know, what is the acceptable sieve cast if any right, and it's and 913 01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:20.640 armed combatants. Okay, you can shoot at somebody who's armed. Or what 914 01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:24.439 if he doesn't. What if he doesn't raise his weapon at you. What 915 01:08:24.560 --> 01:08:27.039 if he's not shooting at you. What if he has his cell phone and 916 01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:30.479 there's intelligence that there are spotters in the area. What if the guy tries 917 01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:32.439 to steal your home v What if he tries to steal a radio? What 918 01:08:32.560 --> 01:08:35.439 if he's running What if he doesn't have a weapon, but he's running off 919 01:08:35.520 --> 01:08:40.720 a target where you know bad guys are, and he's running towards a known 920 01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:45.239 location of weapons or a suspected location of a weapons. Cash like it gets 921 01:08:45.840 --> 01:08:48.439 it sounds it sounds like civilians would think, well, it's kind of obvious, 922 01:08:48.560 --> 01:08:51.079 right the guy's he's a bad guy or not right, But it gets 923 01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:57.159 very conflicent in very quickly, especially when you know everybody's on uniformed and you 924 01:08:57.199 --> 01:08:59.600 know there are certain groups that you could directly target, you know, the 925 01:08:59.640 --> 01:09:01.399 telebate and obviously is one of them, but then there's these other malicious It's 926 01:09:01.439 --> 01:09:05.000 like, is he part of this group or another group? Yeah? Then 927 01:09:05.640 --> 01:09:09.800 if only they would have worn uniforms to know who they were. I know, 928 01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:16.640 there's consider it. I know, something I want to make sure that 929 01:09:16.760 --> 01:09:20.640 we talk about here is I'd like to ask you about the big firefight where 930 01:09:20.920 --> 01:09:27.359 Ben Roberts Smith was a ward of the Victorious Cross for and for our American 931 01:09:27.399 --> 01:09:31.640 listeners, the VC if that's the Australian or Commonwealth equivalent of our Medal of 932 01:09:31.720 --> 01:09:36.840 Honor. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was the Battle of Tizzak, 933 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:45.640 which was part of the Shawoi offensive. Like everything you know, post this 934 01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:48.319 defamation case, there are multiple versions of this, you know, so there 935 01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:53.479 was the official version of what Ben Robert Smith did regardless. You know, 936 01:09:53.960 --> 01:09:59.560 it was an incredible feat in which he charged a machine gun post, two 937 01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:03.039 machine gun posts. You know, killed lots of people. You know, 938 01:10:03.079 --> 01:10:06.399 they were they were hugely undermanned in in this in this Battle of Tiszac. 939 01:10:09.439 --> 01:10:15.359 But the war crime story has emerged not from without but within. You know, 940 01:10:15.399 --> 01:10:19.000 it's been soldiers who are upset with with Ben Robert Smith. You know, 941 01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:25.920 bener of Smith has ended up becoming the most decorated soldier since Vietnam because 942 01:10:25.960 --> 01:10:28.479 he was awarded the Victoria Cross. He was warded the Medal of Gallantry and 943 01:10:28.560 --> 01:10:32.640 the Commendation of Distinguished Service. So when he was awarded the Commendation of Distinguished 944 01:10:32.680 --> 01:10:38.600 Service, somebody went actually back to Tizzak after Ben Robert Smith was awarded the 945 01:10:38.680 --> 01:10:45.079 Victoria Cross and past out where he where he was involved in this firefight and 946 01:10:45.239 --> 01:10:48.600 looked at the official reporting and said that they you know that the official reporting 947 01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:54.880 is is a little bit skew if but yeah, I mean, I don't 948 01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:57.600 think there's any question that you know, he was involved in this, in 949 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:00.399 this incredibly difficult situ. Do you want to describe a little bit of that, 950 01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:04.640 because it sounds like the SAS was engaged in entrenched you know, dug 951 01:11:04.720 --> 01:11:10.119 in enemy they were outnumbered, and you write about this scenario where Ben Roberts 952 01:11:10.119 --> 01:11:15.079 Smith and another operator are like kind of in a gem and like are pretty 953 01:11:15.079 --> 01:11:17.000 convinced they're about to die. Yeah, they really are. I mean, 954 01:11:17.399 --> 01:11:23.159 you know, they're pinned down by PKM two PK and machine guns and they 955 01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:26.159 basically need to see the initiative again, you know, so they have to 956 01:11:26.279 --> 01:11:30.319 charge across open ground to you know, to silence these machine guns and kill 957 01:11:30.359 --> 01:11:34.319 these guys while they're getting lateral fire as well. It's my understanding, but 958 01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:39.960 he did it with another guy who who was one of his best friends, 959 01:11:39.960 --> 01:11:44.359 who was a junior soldier, and it was contended in the defamation case that 960 01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:48.840 this is one of the people that he ordered to commit execution, and so 961 01:11:49.000 --> 01:11:54.439 this person is in their own legal jeopardy. This person is also someone who 962 01:11:54.520 --> 01:11:58.760 has a significant psychological issue. But this is there's also someone who in the 963 01:11:58.840 --> 01:12:00.840 defamation case says that, you know, he loves Ben Robert Smith, you 964 01:12:00.880 --> 01:12:05.159 know that that he's someone that who who he really kind of appreciates. But 965 01:12:06.680 --> 01:12:12.319 he claims in the defamation case that both he and Ben Roberts Smith basically did 966 01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:15.960 the same thing. That they fought together, you know, to resolve this 967 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:20.399 situation, and that Ben Robert Smith was given the Victoria Cross and this guy 968 01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:26.960 was given the Medal of Gallantry after this guy who hasn't been named, after 969 01:12:27.079 --> 01:12:29.920 this guy had been told that he was going to get the Victoria Across. 970 01:12:30.079 --> 01:12:33.600 And an aspect of this defamation case is that after the Battle of Tizzak, 971 01:12:34.439 --> 01:12:39.760 you know, defense needed a pr win and Ben Robert Smith is a judge's 972 01:12:39.840 --> 01:12:42.640 son. You know, he went to a private school. He looks the 973 01:12:42.680 --> 01:12:45.039 way that he does you know he could he could speak well to to a 974 01:12:45.159 --> 01:12:50.319 certain category of Australians and so, you know, it could be argued that 975 01:12:50.439 --> 01:12:59.560 this is the point where the rift began. Let's see, what else do 976 01:12:59.640 --> 01:13:01.840 we want to get into here. Oh, there's another another operation that struck 977 01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:06.119 me from reading your book that this was a very legitimate, well executed operation 978 01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:13.119 was the twenty eleven operation where the Australians got intelligence that there was a group 979 01:13:13.199 --> 01:13:18.079 of children's suicide bombers that were moving into her Ao. Yeah, I mean 980 01:13:19.319 --> 01:13:25.039 one of the problems in I mean, one of the problems in Afghanistans generally 981 01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:30.039 was that the Taliban had this sort of area, this decomfliction area in Pakistan 982 01:13:30.439 --> 01:13:32.319 and that there was a porous border. So they basically, you know, 983 01:13:32.399 --> 01:13:36.880 there was the crediturer that basically ran the centralized insurgency and they couldn't be touched 984 01:13:36.880 --> 01:13:41.920 and they basically had this city where you know, they could live with impunity. 985 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:47.880 They you know, it was four hours away by by motorcycle from central 986 01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:51.560 Luriscan, so they could basically go in and out of theater when they wanted 987 01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:57.399 to. And so this is a story that has has not been told and 988 01:13:58.159 --> 01:14:01.560 perhaps may not be told because of the you know, because of the compartmentalized 989 01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:06.079 nature of some of the information. But they had to sort of build up 990 01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:15.239 this intelligence structure that included an understanding of what was happening in Pakistan, you 991 01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:16.920 know. So they wanted to when these guys sort of came in, they 992 01:14:17.000 --> 01:14:19.439 wanted to hit them when they'd come into theater, and they you know, 993 01:14:19.479 --> 01:14:25.079 they couldn't they couldn't go to into Pakistan. But they had heard that these 994 01:14:25.640 --> 01:14:30.800 these child suicide bombers were coming in. They got some information in uh the 995 01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:34.039 way that the information is gathered, I know, but it isn't detailed in 996 01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:38.319 the book and can't be detailed in the book. So they get this information 997 01:14:38.399 --> 01:14:43.960 that these these child suicide bombers are coming in, and I think they actually 998 01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:46.840 ended up they ended up neutralizing them about killing them. Is that right? 999 01:14:47.119 --> 01:14:51.600 Yeah, that's that's that's what's in your book as I recall read. Yeah, 1000 01:14:51.880 --> 01:14:54.840 I mean it's my information, But like I said, two books, 1001 01:14:55.239 --> 01:15:00.399 so there's some there's some stuff I don't remember. And then the last couple, 1002 01:15:00.560 --> 01:15:04.159 the like final years of the SOTG, you write about how that's really 1003 01:15:04.239 --> 01:15:09.760 where a lot of the murders in Mayhem, alleged murders really pick up and 1004 01:15:10.079 --> 01:15:15.960 things really get bad. Yeah, it's twenty twelve where the sort of bulk 1005 01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:21.720 of the murders are alleged to have happened. And I mean it makes sense. 1006 01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:26.880 You know, from an ethical perspective, we are all moral beings, 1007 01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:29.840 you know, regardless of who we are and what we've done and what we 1008 01:15:29.880 --> 01:15:32.760 think is appropriate and not appropriate, we have this sort of like understanding of 1009 01:15:32.840 --> 01:15:40.680 what is right and wrong. And if you're if you're leaving Orusgan having committed 1010 01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:47.640 so much bodily and emotionally to the fight, I can understand why you believe 1011 01:15:48.039 --> 01:15:51.119 that you think there are these people who you know that are bad and that 1012 01:15:51.199 --> 01:15:54.960 the province will be better off if you have killed them. You know, 1013 01:15:55.199 --> 01:15:59.119 there is no justification legally and personally, I don't think there's any justification morally 1014 01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:01.119 to execute people. But if you are at the back end of this thing, 1015 01:16:01.479 --> 01:16:04.720 you've seen so much death, You've had friends die as well, you 1016 01:16:04.920 --> 01:16:09.680 killed so many people, you don't want it to be for nothing. You 1017 01:16:09.760 --> 01:16:12.319 know, you don't want to just be walking away and going, oh, 1018 01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:15.720 well, we didn't when you know, especially after you know, spending your 1019 01:16:15.880 --> 01:16:19.720 entire thirties or or you know, like a great chunk of your life to 1020 01:16:19.880 --> 01:16:26.960 this thing, you know, in Australia and in Afghanistan. That's just that's 1021 01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:30.479 just my speculations as to what happened, But yes, it it happened in 1022 01:16:30.800 --> 01:16:33.760 primarily in twenty twelve. The other thing that I wade about in the book 1023 01:16:33.880 --> 01:16:38.720 is that a lot of the guys talk about the incentive structure that had built 1024 01:16:38.800 --> 01:16:44.119 up around then. Jackpots was a big thing. So jackpots j PEL targets 1025 01:16:44.159 --> 01:16:47.680 who were prosecuted, who were either killed or were in detention, in long 1026 01:16:47.800 --> 01:16:51.119 term detention. So if you recycle a guy, you go and catch him 1027 01:16:51.119 --> 01:16:55.279 and you put him, you know, into the Afghan justice system, and 1028 01:16:55.319 --> 01:16:58.520 it doesn't it won't count as the jackpot. But at the top of the 1029 01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:01.960 mission sheets it says jackpot, you know, and there's a box for whether 1030 01:17:01.960 --> 01:17:05.520 you've got a jackpot or one or two. And I think the sotgs were 1031 01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:11.359 trying to rack up as many jackpots as they could. And I don't know 1032 01:17:11.520 --> 01:17:15.800 this because this hasn't necessarily been investigated, but I think some of the ogster 1033 01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:19.640 combat killings may have been JPELL targets to make sure that this person was killed 1034 01:17:19.720 --> 01:17:25.199 rather than recycled them, that they weren't counted as the jackpot. One of 1035 01:17:25.319 --> 01:17:30.119 the things you wrote actually kind of even though no one was actually killed in 1036 01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:33.079 this scenario, there is I mean, I thought this was in a sense 1037 01:17:33.159 --> 01:17:38.600 the most shocking part of your book was that you write that Ben Roberts Smith 1038 01:17:39.079 --> 01:17:46.279 on training exercises in Australia was having the junior operators conduct mock executions and saying, 1039 01:17:46.600 --> 01:17:50.319 hey, that's how we do it overseas. That's not something you can't 1040 01:17:50.399 --> 01:17:53.840 chalk that up to, like in the heat of the moment, you know, 1041 01:17:54.079 --> 01:17:59.079 we're in combat, things happen. That's very premeditated. If it's true, 1042 01:18:00.520 --> 01:18:03.079 well, I mean all of all of the alleged murders, or most 1043 01:18:03.079 --> 01:18:06.439 of the alleged murders are premeditated. In that drop weapons were involved, so 1044 01:18:06.520 --> 01:18:11.520 they took weapons on target or radios on target so that when they had executed 1045 01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:15.560 people they could for the sc photos drop a weapon or a radio on them. 1046 01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:20.720 That was evidence that was given at the defamation case by I think two 1047 01:18:20.840 --> 01:18:31.960 witnesses who were involved in these in these pre deployment readiness exercises from memory as 1048 01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:36.479 well. They gave evidence that this had happened in front of lots of people 1049 01:18:38.199 --> 01:18:41.880 that you know, these mock exe mock executions, and the Ben Robert Smith 1050 01:18:41.960 --> 01:18:47.039 has allegedly in this in this deformation case, had said to these junior soldiers, 1051 01:18:47.159 --> 01:18:49.760 you know, execute this this outgame, because that's how it's going to 1052 01:18:49.800 --> 01:18:54.760 be over there. And then one of the guys who gave evidence came and 1053 01:18:55.439 --> 01:18:58.239 picked him up at it later and just said, what the what the fuck 1054 01:18:58.239 --> 01:19:04.239 are you doing? You know, what are you doing here? And then 1055 01:19:05.359 --> 01:19:11.239 we get into twenty twelve, Ben Robert Smith is accused of kicking a guy 1056 01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:20.840 off a cliff. Yeah, what happened there? I mean a few of 1057 01:19:20.920 --> 01:19:25.399 the killings. And the part of the reason that I think Australia and it's 1058 01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:30.239 a royal commission is that that was in the wake of a Green Old Blue 1059 01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:36.720 killing where a guy called Hec Matula had been being trained by conventional forces in 1060 01:19:36.760 --> 01:19:42.760 a patrol base and he turned his gun on the Australian conventional forces and killed 1061 01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:45.560 a number of people and then ran off into the ran off into the ether, 1062 01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:49.840 and they had some intelligence as to where he was, but they were 1063 01:19:49.880 --> 01:19:53.279 sort of a little bit behind. The eight ball. So this is one 1064 01:19:53.279 --> 01:19:57.920 of the missions where they flew into this area they were trying to find him, 1065 01:19:58.319 --> 01:20:02.399 and it's entirely possible that they found someone who had been on a phone 1066 01:20:02.439 --> 01:20:09.079 who was trying to facilitate his escape, and that they may have decided to 1067 01:20:09.359 --> 01:20:13.079 take things into their own hand in that in that context. But yeah, 1068 01:20:13.800 --> 01:20:16.199 it's it's that that's one of the things that's up an appeal. It was 1069 01:20:16.399 --> 01:20:23.439 upheld in the original ruling that Ben Robert Smith had stood a guy in front 1070 01:20:23.439 --> 01:20:28.640 of a cliff. You know, there was long deliberations as to whether it 1071 01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:31.439 was a cliff or whether it was an incline or whatever it was. But 1072 01:20:32.119 --> 01:20:38.479 the judge, which is misruling is now an appeal, found it credible that 1073 01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:41.720 Ben rob Smith had kicked this guy off this cliff. He sustained some facial 1074 01:20:41.800 --> 01:20:45.199 injuries, and then he ordered another junior soldier in a machine gun into death 1075 01:20:45.319 --> 01:20:49.720 afterwards. Going back to that, to that question of things happening in the 1076 01:20:49.760 --> 01:20:55.079 heat of battle, all of these murders supposedly happened in a permissive environment after 1077 01:20:56.039 --> 01:20:59.840 you know, there was no more shoes, right. But and to clarify, 1078 01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:06.520 this guy was suspected or or known to be linked to the guy they 1079 01:21:06.520 --> 01:21:11.079 were after hanging about to her. Well, I mean, there's there's been 1080 01:21:11.119 --> 01:21:15.760 an incredible amount of reporting about this killing into including two relatively famous Australian books, 1081 01:21:17.119 --> 01:21:23.119 and the intimation has been that he was someone who just sort of flew 1082 01:21:23.119 --> 01:21:25.960 into this town and was the wrong place for the wrong time. But I've 1083 01:21:26.000 --> 01:21:29.239 been told by multiple people that you know, he was he was part of 1084 01:21:29.279 --> 01:21:32.119 a local militia and you know took Heck matullur In and basically set him off 1085 01:21:32.199 --> 01:21:39.119 north after you know, after he after he'd escaped from this Australian Patrol base. 1086 01:21:39.239 --> 01:21:42.600 So you know that's something that might come out in a criminal trial. 1087 01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:45.920 But yeah, we'll see. There's a lot of it that's just will say. 1088 01:21:45.319 --> 01:21:49.079 You mentioned, you know, some of the ideas for the Australian government 1089 01:21:49.119 --> 01:21:55.279 and what you think should happen with some of the stuff. How much responsibility 1090 01:21:55.359 --> 01:21:59.359 do you think that the governments of like western nations have when we go into 1091 01:21:59.439 --> 01:22:05.960 this sort of these nebulous environments with the rotating justice systems and allow soldiers to 1092 01:22:06.079 --> 01:22:13.760 complete, you know, repeatedly deployed to these like they they obviously get to 1093 01:22:13.840 --> 01:22:20.439 a level of frustration where nothing is changing and yet the governments themselves and their 1094 01:22:20.520 --> 01:22:28.520 generals, the military structure is not sympathetic to what's going on there. No, 1095 01:22:28.680 --> 01:22:30.840 that's right. Do you think there's a solution to that? And how 1096 01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:38.279 the government had would we would handle these types of conflicts going forward? Yeah? 1097 01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:42.439 I mean, my there were so many times where I was writing fine, 1098 01:22:42.479 --> 01:22:45.880 fixed finish, where I was like, why why doesn't a civilian reach 1099 01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:49.159 down, you know in false effect finding mission to have an actual understanding of 1100 01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:56.479 the nuts and bolts, especially of the s OTG operations and then come back, 1101 01:22:57.800 --> 01:23:00.680 you know, and you probably need some people who are retired military people 1102 01:23:00.760 --> 01:23:04.079 to sort of, you know, assemble a plan of action to make sure 1103 01:23:04.199 --> 01:23:11.840 that we are operating a industry strategically coherent way and b in an ethical and 1104 01:23:11.920 --> 01:23:14.760 moral way and see in a way that's not going to be damaging to your 1105 01:23:14.800 --> 01:23:17.239 forces. You know, there were so many times where I just I just 1106 01:23:17.840 --> 01:23:20.279 I just thought, you know, why does the department on the ministry not 1107 01:23:20.439 --> 01:23:24.520 reach down? You know, there was there was a JTF commander. So 1108 01:23:25.279 --> 01:23:28.399 the structure is that, you know, we had the s O tgs, 1109 01:23:28.439 --> 01:23:31.239 we have all of the all the individual task groups, across across the Middle 1110 01:23:31.239 --> 01:23:36.960 East, the Australian Task Groups. They report to an officer who's in who's 1111 01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:41.479 in the UAE, and he's the JTF commander, so he's a major general 1112 01:23:41.920 --> 01:23:45.079 and then he reports to Australia which reports the government. And the JTF commander, 1113 01:23:45.119 --> 01:23:48.600 who Boy interviewed, said JTF commanders quite often didn't even have access to 1114 01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:53.000 the Australian Special Forces, you know, they were sort of told that they 1115 01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:57.199 didn't have the required clearance to be around in their compound, you know. 1116 01:23:57.319 --> 01:24:00.680 So you're never going to have this sort of transparency if you have made generals 1117 01:24:00.960 --> 01:24:05.439 who are part of the command structure unable to gain access to the soldiers. 1118 01:24:05.880 --> 01:24:11.399 So I think that it would have been useful whether if the civilians would be 1119 01:24:11.439 --> 01:24:15.479 able to reach down and actually speak to the soldiers, not only from an 1120 01:24:15.479 --> 01:24:17.159 operational level, but from an actual boots on the ground level. What do 1121 01:24:17.279 --> 01:24:19.680 you guys do you know, grab some of these guys and go what's your 1122 01:24:19.760 --> 01:24:21.880 day to day? You know, what are you told about the ROE, 1123 01:24:21.960 --> 01:24:25.800 what are you told about the missions? And then from that you can build 1124 01:24:25.880 --> 01:24:30.439 up an understanding of what the strategic picture is and then move things because there 1125 01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:33.680 were these firewalls all the way through. And you know, I I'm very 1126 01:24:33.760 --> 01:24:39.520 sympathetic with the ministers because they are given this political appointment, you know, 1127 01:24:40.079 --> 01:24:45.399 but then also they do have an obligation, especially when lethal forces being employed, 1128 01:24:46.239 --> 01:24:51.279 to represent the Australian public, to represent in a democracy, the things 1129 01:24:51.319 --> 01:24:57.000 that are being done on our behalf, and there was a failure in being 1130 01:24:57.000 --> 01:24:59.600 able to do that. It also seems, you know, we were very 1131 01:24:59.640 --> 01:25:04.000 busy advising the Afghan military and aspects of the NDS, you know, the 1132 01:25:04.319 --> 01:25:10.880 security apparatus, but we weren't to my knowledge, like there were no coalition 1133 01:25:11.039 --> 01:25:15.079 forces in the actual correctional system. And it's like that that was the leaky 1134 01:25:15.199 --> 01:25:21.600 hole. And if somebody higher in command in the military or people in governments 1135 01:25:23.000 --> 01:25:28.319 would have recognized that. And because I'll tell you, like, I'm sort 1136 01:25:28.319 --> 01:25:30.680 of on the opposite side of you in the sense of, I know what, 1137 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.520 it's not legal, but I do find it ethical. But the thing 1138 01:25:33.640 --> 01:25:39.960 is we need to take people, we need to take that situation and make 1139 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:46.479 it so that it meets your expectations right, so that any non judicial killing 1140 01:25:47.000 --> 01:25:54.520 is ethical or I mean isn't ethical. It isn't ethical. Yeah, yeah, 1141 01:25:54.600 --> 01:25:58.800 sorry about that, but isn't ethical where these guys aren't rotating back through 1142 01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:02.000 and you know it's not kind of dirt bags that you're dealing with. Yeah, 1143 01:26:02.560 --> 01:26:06.800 I mean, from my perspective as an Australian, all Australian forces have 1144 01:26:06.880 --> 01:26:11.760 to be subject to Australian law. Sure, that just absolutely, because you 1145 01:26:11.840 --> 01:26:15.159 know, from a moral perspective, these people are citizens. They are going 1146 01:26:15.199 --> 01:26:16.800 to be fighting in Afghanistan for a certain period of time and then they're going 1147 01:26:16.880 --> 01:26:19.399 to be coming out into the community and they have to be members of the 1148 01:26:19.479 --> 01:26:25.479 community. You know, if you are going to be pushing the bounds of 1149 01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:30.079 what is allowed and what is you know, what is legal, there has 1150 01:26:30.159 --> 01:26:32.239 to be at least some sort of strategic reason for that to be happening, 1151 01:26:32.359 --> 01:26:34.720 rather than just you know, this is the fight that we're in, this 1152 01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:39.039 is the vice we've been sent in. So you know, perhaps there is 1153 01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:43.840 more, there is more understanding for rule bending if you are an American because 1154 01:26:44.079 --> 01:26:47.640 you are committed to this, to this war that you have decided that that 1155 01:26:47.760 --> 01:26:53.800 is strategically important. But if you're an Australian, there's no justification for it. 1156 01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:59.319 If it is just alliance coherence, no yeah, I'm agreeing with you 1157 01:26:59.439 --> 01:27:03.720 on that point. The sense of there shouldn't be that there shouldn't be rule 1158 01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:06.560 breaking. But in order for there not to be rule breaking, I think 1159 01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:11.960 that the people on the ground have to know that the rules will be fault 1160 01:27:12.079 --> 01:27:15.520 that when they put a guy away, he's going to stay away. And 1161 01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:19.079 that's what I'm saying is that that they should, you know, these governments 1162 01:27:19.079 --> 01:27:25.920 should recognize that there's a leak in there, just in like the indigenous justice 1163 01:27:25.960 --> 01:27:30.039 system, and not put the operators or soldiers and people on the ground in 1164 01:27:30.159 --> 01:27:35.640 the position of making these bad legal decisions. Yeah, but then also I 1165 01:27:35.920 --> 01:27:41.760 agree, I highly agree. But then you also need to understand that you 1166 01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:44.159 know, you're here for a reason. You're in a country that has a 1167 01:27:44.239 --> 01:27:48.960 poorest legal system you have. It is a country that is tribally based, 1168 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:53.960 and you know, the idea of being an Afghan isn't the same idea as 1169 01:27:54.000 --> 01:27:57.840 being an American or Australian. So there are going to be these things that 1170 01:27:57.920 --> 01:28:00.960 are infuriating to you, and perhaps recycling targets over and over again is one 1171 01:28:01.000 --> 01:28:04.159 of those things. But you have to you have to still be an Australian 1172 01:28:04.199 --> 01:28:08.279 and American they're going to be an Afghan, You're not going to be an 1173 01:28:08.279 --> 01:28:12.880 Afghan. You have to try and you have to try and understand the motivations, 1174 01:28:12.880 --> 01:28:15.479 which is an incredibly difficult thing to do as to why they're doing the 1175 01:28:15.560 --> 01:28:19.600 things that they do. But you still have to stay who you are. 1176 01:28:19.720 --> 01:28:23.800 You have to you have to represent your uniform, you have to represent your 1177 01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:27.680 set of rules, as much as it sucks, annoying as it's going to 1178 01:28:27.720 --> 01:28:30.760 be, but you kind of have to do that. And I mean, 1179 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:36.399 I think the major thin of Australian operations in Afghanistan is that doing less might 1180 01:28:36.520 --> 01:28:40.439 have been the right thing to do, because then you could just let Afghans 1181 01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:45.000 rule the way that appens. Rule right. Tell us about how that's tough 1182 01:28:45.039 --> 01:28:49.319 thing to do. How did this whole war crimes issue explode into the public 1183 01:28:49.399 --> 01:28:54.239 consciousness in Australia. How did that come about, leading into the the Ben 1184 01:28:54.359 --> 01:28:59.039 Roberts Smith that now defamation trial, the Barenton Report, all these things? 1185 01:28:59.079 --> 01:29:02.479 How did that happen? And you know back home, well, I mean 1186 01:29:02.520 --> 01:29:06.159 it happened internally. It was there. There were a lot of sort of 1187 01:29:06.199 --> 01:29:12.000 squeaky wheels within the command who didn't like that you know, the lot of 1188 01:29:12.039 --> 01:29:16.840 this stuff had happened. There was a moment where a new Special Operations commander 1189 01:29:16.960 --> 01:29:24.039 came in and basically said to the guys, look, everybody's talking about it. 1190 01:29:24.119 --> 01:29:27.680 I don't know what year this was, it's in the book. We 1191 01:29:28.039 --> 01:29:30.239 we you know, we want to clear the air this This can't be something 1192 01:29:30.279 --> 01:29:34.399 that sort of drags the command down for the for the rest of the immediate 1193 01:29:34.439 --> 01:29:41.640 future. So everybody, you can just write down anonymously on a piece of 1194 01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:44.640 paper, give me an envelope, and just tell me what happened, you 1195 01:29:44.720 --> 01:29:46.359 know, so then we'll just have a sort of un understanding. And you 1196 01:29:46.399 --> 01:29:50.279 said he got likes, Yeah, he got like two hundred letters. And 1197 01:29:50.319 --> 01:29:54.600 some of the stuff are the most outrageous stuff, I think. I think 1198 01:29:54.800 --> 01:29:57.439 it was sort of like a case of Chinese whispers, where lots of people 1199 01:29:57.439 --> 01:30:00.640 would be like someone I had heard that someone that I hate did this certain 1200 01:30:00.720 --> 01:30:02.039 thing, you know, like done these executions or whatever, and you know, 1201 01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:05.720 like some outlandish stuff. And I can imagine a lot of the stuff 1202 01:30:05.880 --> 01:30:10.920 were things that had actually happened, and so they were like, well, 1203 01:30:10.960 --> 01:30:15.239 how can we reconcile with this? So they brought in a civilian sociologist, 1204 01:30:15.359 --> 01:30:21.119 which was has been hugely contentious. A woman called doctor Samantha Comforts, and 1205 01:30:21.319 --> 01:30:27.279 she is, you know, essentially a culture expert, and so she interviewed 1206 01:30:27.520 --> 01:30:30.520 a lot of a lot of soldiers about what had happened, and then she 1207 01:30:30.680 --> 01:30:34.079 filed this report and the report was meant to be about, you know, 1208 01:30:34.199 --> 01:30:39.119 the culture. She gave it to the Chief Defense about the culture within Special 1209 01:30:39.159 --> 01:30:44.960 Operations Command, but a lot of it was detailed detailing the ethical failings as 1210 01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:47.960 she saw it within the command. And so the Comfort Reports, you know, 1211 01:30:48.960 --> 01:30:54.520 became big news in Australia. It was you know, it was very 1212 01:30:54.560 --> 01:30:58.840 much a big deal. And then the IGADF at that point stepped in and 1213 01:30:59.159 --> 01:31:02.880 they worked on a report for a long time as well. One of the 1214 01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:06.600 issues with that report, my understanding is that one of the issues of that 1215 01:31:06.680 --> 01:31:14.079 report is that they impelled witnesses to speak. So they interviewed sas soldiers and 1216 01:31:14.119 --> 01:31:17.279 commandos and they were compelled to talk, you know, they couldn't basically take 1217 01:31:17.319 --> 01:31:21.840 a fifth. And then the report came out and the report detailed thirty nine 1218 01:31:21.880 --> 01:31:27.560 murders and there were nineteen people who had who had allegedly committed these murders. 1219 01:31:28.439 --> 01:31:33.119 The report stressed that these this wasn't the totality of what we think the war 1220 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:38.600 crimes problem was, but these are people who we think can be referred to 1221 01:31:39.680 --> 01:31:44.960 a prosecutor. And so after that the Australian government there was the Burdon Report 1222 01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:45.760 came out. It was a big day in Australia. You know, the 1223 01:31:45.840 --> 01:31:50.159 Prime Minister stood up on the Dais with the Defense Minister and the Chief of 1224 01:31:50.239 --> 01:31:54.680 Defense and said, you know, we're all outraged by this. You know, 1225 01:31:54.760 --> 01:31:57.760 no one's more shocked than I am, saying all the right things. 1226 01:31:57.800 --> 01:32:00.800 The Buron Report, by the way, said that you know, while there 1227 01:32:00.960 --> 01:32:04.319 was some moral failings within the command, you know, it's basically the responsibility 1228 01:32:04.319 --> 01:32:13.720 of the soldiers who pulled the trigger, which is not how I But they 1229 01:32:13.840 --> 01:32:17.520 then built this new body called the Office of the Special Investigators, and so 1230 01:32:17.680 --> 01:32:24.000 they were then going to build these briefs of evidence from these referrals from the 1231 01:32:24.039 --> 01:32:30.119 Breton Report and then take them to the Department of Public Prosecutions and then these 1232 01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:34.920 would go through and become trials. But Brereton was twenty twenty I believe, 1233 01:32:35.039 --> 01:32:41.319 So it's now four years later we've had one arrest a guy called Oliver Schultz, 1234 01:32:41.399 --> 01:32:45.399 and he was the person who pulled the trigger in the infamous video where 1235 01:32:45.439 --> 01:32:49.279 he's standing over an Afghan youth saying do you want me to drop this count? 1236 01:32:49.279 --> 01:32:54.319 And then he kills him. There hasn't been any other referrals. There 1237 01:32:54.319 --> 01:32:59.039 haven't been any other arrests. There was one of the other things that after 1238 01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:01.560 the Breton was announced, the Prime Minister announced that there was going to be 1239 01:33:02.159 --> 01:33:10.159 an implementation Panel and Afghan Implementation Panel, so this was going to this was 1240 01:33:10.199 --> 01:33:13.840 going to address all the structural issues and the command issues. So they got 1241 01:33:13.920 --> 01:33:16.960 these three experts and they were working on it for a couple of years on 1242 01:33:17.359 --> 01:33:21.640 the things the Defense might have done wrong. They were meant to table the 1243 01:33:21.720 --> 01:33:26.960 reports to the government and then the government were meant to make these reports public. 1244 01:33:27.520 --> 01:33:30.359 They didn't, so people have had to go on FI these requests, 1245 01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:34.960 which is a freedom of information mechanism that's within Australian law where you could get 1246 01:33:35.039 --> 01:33:40.720 governments out of you can get documents out of government. And then the final 1247 01:33:40.800 --> 01:33:46.680 report, which I can imagine there's going to be particularly damning of government and 1248 01:33:47.279 --> 01:33:56.399 defense that hasn't been made public. So the Deputy Prime Minister who's also our 1249 01:33:56.560 --> 01:34:00.159 Defense minister, has been given the report. He was given the report a 1250 01:34:00.199 --> 01:34:05.000 long time ago. FOI requests have been made. Those requests have been denied, 1251 01:34:05.119 --> 01:34:13.920 incidentally by someone who is involved in the the the revitalization of defense post 1252 01:34:13.960 --> 01:34:18.800 Afghanistan. The Senate in our Australian Senate has asked for it to be tabled. 1253 01:34:18.840 --> 01:34:21.640 In fact, they've ordered for it to be tabled. They have twice 1254 01:34:21.920 --> 01:34:25.560 ordered it for it be tabled. It's gone to a vote in the Senate. 1255 01:34:25.600 --> 01:34:30.159 The Senate that the vote has passed, that report is still not like, 1256 01:34:30.239 --> 01:34:32.880 it still isn't available to us. So, you know, years and 1257 01:34:32.960 --> 01:34:38.840 years and years on, the thing sort of drags on and we have you 1258 01:34:38.920 --> 01:34:42.800 know, we have this this high profile General Smith's defamation case where there's no 1259 01:34:43.000 --> 01:34:47.520 criminal liability in jeopardy. We have this one soldier who is going to be 1260 01:34:47.640 --> 01:34:53.039 tried for this murder. And then we have this you know report about about 1261 01:34:53.119 --> 01:34:59.000 defense accountability and what you know what what the government of the day knew or 1262 01:34:59.039 --> 01:35:01.800 didn't know or should have s wouldn't have done and it's nowhere to be seen. 1263 01:35:02.840 --> 01:35:09.720 And meanwhile the war goes on for Australian special Operations. These guys get 1264 01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:13.760 sent right off to Iraq to deal with ISIS. Yeah, that's right. 1265 01:35:13.840 --> 01:35:17.119 And there was always speculation that, you know, the four Squadron guys go 1266 01:35:17.239 --> 01:35:23.920 over to a thing called Gallant Phoenix. Have you guys interviewed anyone who was 1267 01:35:23.920 --> 01:35:28.399 part of Gallaphini. I'm pretty sure we have, even if they didn't use 1268 01:35:28.479 --> 01:35:34.239 that term. Yeah, it's like a collective intelligence gathering in Jordan, I 1269 01:35:34.359 --> 01:35:39.600 believe, where they tracked all the international jihihi that went over to Syria and 1270 01:35:39.680 --> 01:35:45.439 Iraq. And then you know, I think there was some targeting the TF 1271 01:35:45.560 --> 01:35:49.359 Hydra, the Brits and the French and from your what you write about the 1272 01:35:49.479 --> 01:35:54.239 Australians also, Yeah, in Australians as well. So that was the that 1273 01:35:54.359 --> 01:35:58.439 was an s AS element that went and did that. But then the commandos 1274 01:35:58.560 --> 01:36:05.000 went on and worked in the in the strike cells in around Mossel and Alasade 1275 01:36:05.000 --> 01:36:09.239 and attacking them and places like that. And the Australians are actually in a 1276 01:36:09.319 --> 01:36:15.199 house with Eddie Gallagher when when the Eddie Gallagher incident happened. Yeah, So 1277 01:36:15.319 --> 01:36:18.800 that was seals and commandos who were who were together in Bartella in the Battle 1278 01:36:18.800 --> 01:36:24.840 of Mosol. Interesting. Yeah, I've actually been told that the Special Air 1279 01:36:24.960 --> 01:36:29.279 Service has kind of taken over from the Americans, uh, kind of mentoring 1280 01:36:29.359 --> 01:36:32.479 the white reaction regiment in the Philippines. Yeah, I mean that would make 1281 01:36:32.520 --> 01:36:36.840 sense given that we're you know, we're sort of much closer to the Philippines 1282 01:36:36.840 --> 01:36:42.840 than you guys are. And the Australians, I mean, the Mint and 1283 01:36:42.960 --> 01:36:45.880 now insurgency issue, I can't remember. Do you guys remember when that was? 1284 01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:53.560 I mean, it's it's still like ongoing going. Yeah, but I 1285 01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:59.920 know Australians are over there bringing air strikes and jay tax and sort of the 1286 01:37:00.359 --> 01:37:03.560 prototypical strike cells there as well. So yeah, I would imagine. I 1287 01:37:03.600 --> 01:37:09.800 mean, I'm my visibility is with is with operations in Afghanistan. You know, 1288 01:37:10.640 --> 01:37:13.039 I'm not figuring on the pulse of stuff that's happening now, but that 1289 01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:16.239 wouldn't surprise me at all. Do we have questions? Yeah? Yeah, 1290 01:37:16.800 --> 01:37:20.680 did you know if do we have any Patreon stuff? Okay, let me 1291 01:37:20.800 --> 01:37:26.880 get to this real quick. So where do things stand today, Ben? 1292 01:37:26.960 --> 01:37:30.119 With like, if you could talk a little bit about the forced disposition of 1293 01:37:30.239 --> 01:37:38.920 the Australian Special Operations community, Well, I mean everybody almost uniformly everybody I'm 1294 01:37:38.920 --> 01:37:45.520 in contact with is retired because I think part of the reason is because that 1295 01:37:45.680 --> 01:37:49.520 was the party. You know, Afghanistan was the place where where you know, 1296 01:37:49.720 --> 01:37:53.319 you could be involved in combat, and I think there was going to 1297 01:37:53.319 --> 01:37:57.920 be at least a long interregnum after Iraq. I mean, Iraq was was 1298 01:37:58.079 --> 01:38:01.920 very different. You know, the caw rice, this stuff was was not 1299 01:38:02.039 --> 01:38:09.239 gun fighting. And the people that I speak to are sort of generally an 1300 01:38:09.239 --> 01:38:14.359 agree group for various the various different reasons, you know, I mean, 1301 01:38:14.880 --> 01:38:18.880 there are a lot of there is a lot of unity within the community in 1302 01:38:19.039 --> 01:38:24.840 that they think that the command piece of the war crime story in Afghanistan should 1303 01:38:24.880 --> 01:38:29.119 be understood and should be exposed. It shouldn't be that the entire weight of 1304 01:38:30.159 --> 01:38:32.119 those failures should be on the soldiers, of the guys who are on the 1305 01:38:32.159 --> 01:38:35.520 ground. And so even though you know there's a lot of different voices and 1306 01:38:35.560 --> 01:38:39.800 there's a lot of people who hate each other, and you know, there's 1307 01:38:39.800 --> 01:38:44.279 a lot of old, old, old wounds, I think most people think 1308 01:38:44.359 --> 01:38:48.880 that there should be an understanding of of of what the command piece is. 1309 01:38:49.439 --> 01:38:54.399 Yeah, what do we got for ben here M Corbyn, thank you very 1310 01:38:54.479 --> 01:39:00.279 much. And Aussie budd asks how important was b R. S's family backgrounding 1311 01:39:00.359 --> 01:39:05.319 the protection of him. Was there a cultural problem in other squadrons? There 1312 01:39:05.359 --> 01:39:10.079 were, there was a cultural problem in other squadrons, but presumably it wasn't 1313 01:39:10.079 --> 01:39:14.119 as bad as two squadrons. So just a bit of background. They were 1314 01:39:14.840 --> 01:39:19.920 right, Sorry, was that the squadron that was disbanded. They were supposedly 1315 01:39:20.039 --> 01:39:23.760 disbanded, but you know it's a bit of a black box at the moment. 1316 01:39:25.880 --> 01:39:30.199 So yeah, Veneral smith'sdat is Lenn Robert Smith, who was a major 1317 01:39:30.279 --> 01:39:34.920 general and he was he was the head of the jagquars. I believe here 1318 01:39:34.960 --> 01:39:42.760 in Australia he was the head of a task force. I think just before 1319 01:39:42.800 --> 01:39:48.239 the Robert Smith alleged murders. He was someone who was in charge of of 1320 01:39:49.199 --> 01:39:53.039 taking bullying out of the Australian Defense Force. I believe he was part of 1321 01:39:53.039 --> 01:40:00.279 a task force doing that. So whether his family, I think it's highly 1322 01:40:00.359 --> 01:40:05.640 unlikely it his family was was sort of directly involved in covering up any of 1323 01:40:05.680 --> 01:40:10.319 the stuff, and you know that would be I'd be amazed by that. 1324 01:40:10.960 --> 01:40:16.359 But I think, you know, being someone who is from a background that 1325 01:40:16.560 --> 01:40:23.479 is that is what it was, and it may have made it more difficult 1326 01:40:23.520 --> 01:40:26.680 to people to point the finger and to shine a light. I think the 1327 01:40:26.760 --> 01:40:29.159 Victoria Cross might have done that as well. So I don't think that they 1328 01:40:29.159 --> 01:40:30.560 would have been sort of like, you know, a cover up in that 1329 01:40:30.680 --> 01:40:34.520 way, but I think that it would have given people pause to come forward. 1330 01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:43.840 Scott G. Thank you very much. What what's your opinion David McBride 1331 01:40:43.960 --> 01:40:47.960 and how he would have had protections under the whistible olarge with experts testifying, 1332 01:40:48.399 --> 01:40:54.199 but the government blocked the testimony for security concerns. Yeah, that's a really 1333 01:40:54.239 --> 01:40:58.399 interesting question. So McBride lived just down the road from me, someone that 1334 01:40:58.439 --> 01:41:01.520 needs to see all the time if you don't know what he did. He 1335 01:41:01.760 --> 01:41:06.600 was a legal officer Special Operations Task Group legal officer who was deployed in twenty 1336 01:41:06.840 --> 01:41:14.840 thirteen and he was given this Rule of Engagement amplification. So it was basically 1337 01:41:15.039 --> 01:41:19.560 new steps within the new steps that the soldiers had to adhere to to use 1338 01:41:19.640 --> 01:41:27.399 lethal force. And his speculation was that this was because commands knew that there 1339 01:41:27.439 --> 01:41:31.439 had been these murders that had happened and that they wanted to have this ROI 1340 01:41:31.800 --> 01:41:36.079 amplification. So if it all comes to light, they can say, look, 1341 01:41:36.720 --> 01:41:40.159 you know, we did what we could. The soldiers were bad soldiers. 1342 01:41:40.199 --> 01:41:43.920 You know, we've given this roe that they weren't adhering to what can 1343 01:41:44.000 --> 01:41:48.239 we do? And he took umbrage to that. And there were a few 1344 01:41:48.279 --> 01:41:53.640 other things. There were an incident in which a soldier was being investigated for 1345 01:41:53.720 --> 01:41:59.039 a killing and he didn't believe that the soldier had erred, and that he 1346 01:41:59.119 --> 01:42:03.600 thought that this was again, you know, this selective prosecution, basically protecting 1347 01:42:03.640 --> 01:42:10.159 themselves against some sort of exposures to these other war crimes that had happened. 1348 01:42:11.039 --> 01:42:16.079 And so eventually he leaked a bunch of documents to a journalist, to an 1349 01:42:16.079 --> 01:42:20.560 Australian journalist who published some of those documents, and you know, you could 1350 01:42:20.600 --> 01:42:25.239 argue that that was sort of the beginning of all the internal stuff. You 1351 01:42:25.319 --> 01:42:28.039 know, the Conference Report and the Burnt Report might not have happened, but 1352 01:42:28.199 --> 01:42:32.479 that there was this public pressure because these documents had been had been shared on 1353 01:42:32.560 --> 01:42:40.039 the ABC. And then the Australian Federal Police charged him and the journalist who'd 1354 01:42:40.079 --> 01:42:46.720 been given the documents with Espionage Act breaches. McBride was found guilty, and 1355 01:42:46.800 --> 01:42:55.000 you're making reference to the fact that there's these whistleblower protections. McBride David McBride, 1356 01:42:55.000 --> 01:42:58.239 who's a lawyer himself, and the person who was acting for him, 1357 01:42:58.399 --> 01:43:03.359 you know, is a very senilar too. They have built this defense and 1358 01:43:03.479 --> 01:43:09.560 I can't go into what the defense is because of because of the way Australian 1359 01:43:09.600 --> 01:43:15.640 law works. But they had built this defense and at the eleven thousand Australian's 1360 01:43:15.680 --> 01:43:17.640 books came in and said, you can't present this defense. You know, 1361 01:43:17.880 --> 01:43:24.000 national national security information involved, so you can't present this to the court. 1362 01:43:24.520 --> 01:43:27.760 And so there were going to be witnesses. I had made a submission on 1363 01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:30.439 his behalf as well, that we're going to be presented to the judge. 1364 01:43:31.680 --> 01:43:38.840 And then you know, this national security information interjection basically meant that he had 1365 01:43:38.880 --> 01:43:44.920 to abandon his defense and then either defend himself with no evidence or pleet guilty 1366 01:43:45.000 --> 01:43:47.439 and sort of throw himself onto the and to the mercy of the court. 1367 01:43:47.920 --> 01:43:50.600 So he did the latter. He's waiting and sentencing at the moment, and 1368 01:43:51.520 --> 01:43:58.159 that that is a blight against Australian law that someone had who had done something 1369 01:43:58.359 --> 01:44:02.720 that ended up being public good. There's been a lot of contentious conversation as 1370 01:44:02.800 --> 01:44:06.000 to why he did what he did. I think it's kind of relatively material. 1371 01:44:06.079 --> 01:44:11.560 You know, he did expose these crimes. It's you know, it's 1372 01:44:11.560 --> 01:44:15.439 a blight on Australian law that he wasn't without the contradiction in the law is 1373 01:44:16.399 --> 01:44:23.479 it's factually true that he exposed criminal activity, but it's also true that he 1374 01:44:23.600 --> 01:44:29.680 broke Australian law by breaking classification. And there's a real problem there that he 1375 01:44:29.880 --> 01:44:33.720 wasn't granted some sort of whistlebull or protection. But I think the other issue 1376 01:44:33.800 --> 01:44:36.600 is, yes, that's true that there should have been some sort of whistleblower 1377 01:44:36.600 --> 01:44:40.479 of protection for him. But when those two things happen, you know, 1378 01:44:40.560 --> 01:44:44.319 when there are these sort of immovable forces within the law, there should be 1379 01:44:44.359 --> 01:44:47.760 some sort of public conversation about where we actually should fall. And that never 1380 01:44:47.880 --> 01:44:53.079 happened. You know that his trial never happened. He basically the whole thing 1381 01:44:53.199 --> 01:44:55.880 just disappeared and he went straight to sentencing, which is what he's waiting for 1382 01:44:55.920 --> 01:45:00.960 at the moment. And it also sort of highlights the idea that yes, 1383 01:45:00.600 --> 01:45:06.239 reporting crimes or you know this stuff is important, but if the state commits 1384 01:45:06.319 --> 01:45:12.640 the crimes, then then it's not. Then then then the state trumps the 1385 01:45:12.720 --> 01:45:15.760 crimes. Yeah yeah, I mean that's that's definitely something that happens in Camber. 1386 01:45:15.920 --> 01:45:20.960 You know, it's definitely an entity that is incredibly good at protecting itself. 1387 01:45:21.319 --> 01:45:26.199 Right, So rules for you know, the but not for me kind 1388 01:45:26.279 --> 01:45:35.720 of we have issue ahead. Your issue is what the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, 1389 01:45:35.800 --> 01:45:42.920 which is the the National broadcaster, recently did a piece about David McBride. 1390 01:45:43.359 --> 01:45:45.359 Uh and you know, it wasn't a hitch of but but it just it 1391 01:45:45.479 --> 01:45:49.920 just wasn't particularly sympathetic to him and especially the reasons why he made these disclosures. 1392 01:45:50.720 --> 01:45:57.600 And it there is just this there's this perception, I mean it's not 1393 01:45:57.680 --> 01:46:00.720 even really perceptions, just the way that it sort of looks is that they 1394 01:46:00.840 --> 01:46:03.840 ended up being part of the government ganging up on this guy who it's all 1395 01:46:03.880 --> 01:46:10.560 the individuals that end up bearing the brunt of of of these things. The 1396 01:46:10.680 --> 01:46:15.760 soldiers. It's always the soldiers. The institution crushes the person they crushed the 1397 01:46:15.920 --> 01:46:23.520 soldier and and not and and it's it's the generally the low level soldier, 1398 01:46:23.640 --> 01:46:28.680 right, So it's it's the enlisted or the one to four or three. 1399 01:46:29.479 --> 01:46:34.840 It's the general. The generals are fine. At worst, they quietly retire, 1400 01:46:34.960 --> 01:46:39.199 yeah and get it and get a multi million job on on some board 1401 01:46:39.279 --> 01:46:42.880 somewhere. Nobody's ever going to take him a pass for the lies they told 1402 01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:45.319 or the people they sent. You know. Yea's exactly right. And you 1403 01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:48.239 know, the way that it worked is, you know, because we had 1404 01:46:48.279 --> 01:46:53.359 such a poor understanding of what was happening in Afghanistan, everybody was lauded and 1405 01:46:53.560 --> 01:46:59.319 promoted and given medals for this campaign that was that was the lack direction. 1406 01:47:00.039 --> 01:47:02.399 But then they were already in those positions when when all of the failures were 1407 01:47:02.439 --> 01:47:05.199 exposed, so they're like, oh well I'm already yeah, yeah, it's 1408 01:47:05.239 --> 01:47:14.399 like what we do. Yeah yeah, I got feels about that. Okay, 1409 01:47:15.399 --> 01:47:17.079 Scott, thank you very much. We really appreciate. What do you 1410 01:47:17.199 --> 01:47:21.279 think of how there are soldiers who post on a scrab and describing how when 1411 01:47:21.279 --> 01:47:26.560 they were in the Second Commander Regiment they would throw down radios on people they 1412 01:47:26.720 --> 01:47:32.439 killed to claim they were enemy combatants. I think I think I know specifically 1413 01:47:32.520 --> 01:47:38.680 who this person is talking about, which Instagram they're talking about, and you 1414 01:47:38.760 --> 01:47:41.479 know he's he's a good friend of mine, and he has a tattoo of 1415 01:47:41.560 --> 01:47:48.279 a radio of a dead affgues on his arm. Yeah. I actually, 1416 01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:54.800 I actually don't believe that this guy ever actually threw a radio down on a 1417 01:47:54.840 --> 01:47:58.840 dead app gut if we are talking about the same people. Uh. And 1418 01:47:59.119 --> 01:48:02.319 in conversations that I had with him, he's like, we don't set the 1419 01:48:02.439 --> 01:48:05.439 rules. You know. The rules are if we are told that if we 1420 01:48:05.479 --> 01:48:09.640 see someone with an ICM radio, we're allowed to shoot them. Those are 1421 01:48:09.680 --> 01:48:15.079 the rules that that we're given. And the tatoo is making reference to the 1422 01:48:15.199 --> 01:48:18.479 context, which is you're going to give me ship for the job that I 1423 01:48:18.680 --> 01:48:23.640 did the way that you told me to do it. You know that that's 1424 01:48:23.840 --> 01:48:26.279 that's not appropriate. I'm just going to I'm going to do what you told 1425 01:48:26.319 --> 01:48:29.000 me to do. I'm a soldier. I don't get to make my own 1426 01:48:29.079 --> 01:48:30.920 rules. I don't get to you know, legal officers tell me what the 1427 01:48:31.039 --> 01:48:35.399 what the what the bound of engagement are. So yeah, that's that's that's 1428 01:48:35.439 --> 01:48:40.000 my understanding of the of the throwdown stuff that's happening on Instagram. Yeah, 1429 01:48:41.199 --> 01:48:45.640 and that's it for the questions on feed guys. Uh, I hope you 1430 01:48:45.800 --> 01:48:50.000 go out and get yourself a copy of Fine Fixed Finish. This book is 1431 01:48:50.800 --> 01:49:00.520 this is the best book I have ever read about just how how how how 1432 01:49:00.640 --> 01:49:05.600 elite soldiers come off the rails? Like how does how does a special operations 1433 01:49:05.640 --> 01:49:11.960 a very elite unit people were specially selected and trained, but also it's a 1434 01:49:12.079 --> 01:49:15.880 very insular culture and how does that come undone? How does that happen and 1435 01:49:16.000 --> 01:49:19.359 why? And I think this book does a really good job of explaining that. 1436 01:49:21.840 --> 01:49:27.079 Go check out the both find Fixed Finish, also Masul and the Commando. 1437 01:49:28.279 --> 01:49:30.199 I don't know, Ben, do you do you have anything else that 1438 01:49:30.359 --> 01:49:32.800 you want to tell the audience out there? Where can people find you? 1439 01:49:33.399 --> 01:49:38.960 What's the next book coming out? Uh? Well, I mean this book 1440 01:49:39.000 --> 01:49:44.720 came out last year, which is my memoir, which is about recovering from 1441 01:49:44.760 --> 01:49:47.399 that stroke and that heart attack and then sort of going off and doing the 1442 01:49:47.479 --> 01:49:51.960 things that I did, So you can check that out. The other book 1443 01:49:53.000 --> 01:49:56.399 that I'm working on the moment is I'm working with the Australian picket captain called 1444 01:49:56.439 --> 01:50:00.039 Pet Cummins on a book about leadership. So that'll come out out back into 1445 01:50:00.119 --> 01:50:04.239 this year. So yeah, read all the pet Commons books, but I 1446 01:50:04.319 --> 01:50:08.840 write will you? Uh? Will you hold up your the other book again, 1447 01:50:08.880 --> 01:50:10.680 I'm going to read I'm going to say it for the people who are 1448 01:50:10.720 --> 01:50:15.520 listening on a podcast, a scar is also skin. I mean the good 1449 01:50:15.560 --> 01:50:18.640 thing is you probably won't be able to find fine fixed finish in America, 1450 01:50:18.720 --> 01:50:23.159 but scars also skin. It's like on Spotify and Audible and well yeah, 1451 01:50:23.399 --> 01:50:27.840 I mean full, full, full disclosure I interview or I'm sorry. I 1452 01:50:28.039 --> 01:50:31.159 ordered this book off of Amazon and it only took like three months to get 1453 01:50:31.239 --> 01:50:36.560 to me. You can probably get it on Kindle quite a bit faster. 1454 01:50:38.119 --> 01:50:41.640 I would think that might be the way to go for most of the folks. 1455 01:50:42.600 --> 01:50:47.239 So yeah, books for the other books. Yeah. Uh So on 1456 01:50:47.680 --> 01:50:53.239 Monday we're going to be back with Rick Kaiser, who is a seal that 1457 01:50:53.439 --> 01:50:57.560 wrote a book about Frogman stories. And then on Friday we're going to have 1458 01:50:57.680 --> 01:51:04.319 a retired B one pilot here in studio our first Yeah, we'll be talking 1459 01:51:04.359 --> 01:51:08.960 we'll be talking about with us. Yeah, we won't be talking about grenades 1460 01:51:09.039 --> 01:51:13.520 and rifles in that one. It will be more of the strategic level stuff. 1461 01:51:13.720 --> 01:51:19.159 So that'll be interesting. Ben, thank you for spending your Australian Friday 1462 01:51:19.199 --> 01:51:24.720 morning with us. Saturday a Saturday morning is a Saturday morning or Friday morning, 1463 01:51:24.800 --> 01:51:30.119 Saturday morning, Saturday morning. You're missing all the cartoons. Yeah, 1464 01:51:30.680 --> 01:51:35.199 big guys. Thanks, I appreciate it, and we'll see everyone else out 1465 01:51:35.239 --> 01:51:36.520 there next week. Thanks everyone,