1 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:20,920 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Transfigured Life. We have a special guest 2 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:25,519 here in the building. I'm always here rocking with Father Jonathan. And as 3 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:31,280 you guys can see, here we have the comedian, the apologist, the 4 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,159 gifted one here, Jay Dyer. Give it up for Jay Dyer. How 5 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,119 you doing, Jay, I'm doing great, man, Thanks for having here, 6 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,920 Glad to be here, so honored our talk to you guys. Appreciate 7 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,880 it. Yeah, our pleasure and our honor. Thank you very much. 8 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,520 Jay. We're gonna kind of get right into it, and I want to 9 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:55,640 begin by by by asking you a question. Undoubtedly, if you've been watching 10 00:00:55,679 --> 00:00:58,520 YouTube for a while, and I think you have, and if you've been 11 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,759 watching Orthodox Apologize and I think you have, can't fail to notice that there's 12 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:07,640 been an abundance of podcasts and videos out there now by Protestants and especially Reform 13 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:14,000 Protestants, Evangelicals, Baptists that are attacking the Orthodox faith in church. You 14 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,400 know, I recently heard some Presbyterian church out west even deny that we the 15 00:01:18,519 --> 00:01:22,599 Orthodox have Apostolic succession. And so I'm sure you've heard some of these, 16 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,920 But what do you make of what do you think of that? We're seeing 17 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,120 more and more of them now. I think one reason that we're seeing that 18 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,120 is just everybody's got a podcast now. My wife and I were joking about 19 00:01:34,159 --> 00:01:38,319 this, like every like every people's grandmothers are gonna start having a podcasts soon. 20 00:01:38,239 --> 00:01:42,879 Literally everybody has a podcast, and I think every pastor now has a 21 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,760 podcast, So that's part of it. But also think that there's a realization 22 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:52,040 that there's a lot of problems in the religious world, especially if you come 23 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,519 from a Protestant or a Roman Catholic background. I mean, that's not to 24 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:59,439 say there's no problems in the Orthodox world, but every group kind of has 25 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,040 its own un nique problems, and so I think that a lot of people 26 00:02:01,079 --> 00:02:06,760 are sensing that questions are being asked that are very difficult. A lot of 27 00:02:06,799 --> 00:02:10,360 times Protestant pastors might not have the answers to these kinds of questions, and 28 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:15,039 so they're going online, they're seeking out answers, and they're feeling the need 29 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:20,800 to have to address why people are converting. A lot of people are converting 30 00:02:21,599 --> 00:02:24,199 out of Protestantism, some terrom Catholicism, but I think actually in the last 31 00:02:24,199 --> 00:02:28,479 three or four years more to Orthodoxy. So I think there's a need to 32 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,719 try to explain this, to say, hey, don't leave. You know, 33 00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:36,400 they've got problems too, and Protestantism can be defended. I don't think 34 00:02:36,439 --> 00:02:38,560 ultimately that it can, but I think that's the reason, is that a 35 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:45,319 lot of people are looking for more than what they're getting at Protestant churches. 36 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,800 So they're seeing a lot of you know, rainbow flags going up at Protestant 37 00:02:49,879 --> 00:02:53,000 churches, and that's making a lot of people, you know, to satisfy 38 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,159 this is not what you know historic Christianity is. So there's on the one 39 00:02:55,159 --> 00:03:01,960 hand of search for authentic historic Christianity, there's a search for wanting to be 40 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,680 you know, consistent with what the Bible actually teaches in terms of morals and 41 00:03:06,719 --> 00:03:09,080 that kind of stuff. People are craving that they don't want this, uh, 42 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:15,159 water down stuff. And even even in the conservative Protestant world, I 43 00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:21,520 think there's a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to the challenges that Orthodoxy 44 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,719 and Catholicism are presenting, but more so Orthodoxy because I think a lot of 45 00:03:24,719 --> 00:03:30,000 people are seeing you know, really systematic level problems in the in the Roman 46 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:35,919 Catholic world that perhaps Orthodoxy might have the answer to that's good, Luther. 47 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,159 Both you and Jay came out of that million if you and I know you 48 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,879 probably have have different issues that you could point to. But Jay, what 49 00:03:43,919 --> 00:03:46,840 do you think are the man? What do you think are the two or 50 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:51,680 three biggest issues that are bringing people over? Yeah, you got a lot 51 00:03:51,719 --> 00:03:57,159 of a lot of people coming out of the you know, the Protestant world. 52 00:03:57,199 --> 00:04:00,599 So what do you think is that that reason? Probably the biggest let 53 00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:06,319 me say the biggest two issues in the Protestant world would be and I don't 54 00:04:06,319 --> 00:04:11,120 know if they're in any specific order, just the ones that come to mind 55 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,840 that I hear the most are questions like, well, you know solo scriptura, 56 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,759 which is really the essence of classical Protestantism. And it really doesn't matter 57 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,319 what form you want to give to solo scriptura. I know that there's different 58 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:29,319 versions of a different apologists that give different levels of it. Different Protestant apologists 59 00:04:29,319 --> 00:04:33,920 will recognize some kind of place for tradition, perhaps maybe even all the way 60 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:40,639 up to High Church Anglicans can concede maybe the most reverence for traditions supposedly, 61 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:46,519 but I think there's still a recognition that there's big heaping questions of a historicity 62 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:51,439 or the Protestant position is not historical, especially when we come to the formation 63 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,879 of the Canon, when it comes to how the Bible came to be, 64 00:04:55,519 --> 00:05:00,240 when it comes to the actual practis of the Church in the first six seventh 65 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,519 century, is the way that it operated with liturgy oral, you know, 66 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:10,600 teaching profession of the faith in the liturgy and not so much people having to 67 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,160 go and read the Bible on their own to figure it all out. When 68 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,800 people start to realize that when they see what's in the ecumenical councils and the 69 00:05:15,879 --> 00:05:23,199 canons and even the earliest councils, you know, prior to Icia and Caira 70 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:26,800 Gangra, you know, you see these so called Catholic and I say that 71 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,680 is in the sense of orthodox Catholic elements. People are seeing that and realizing 72 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,120 that, you know this, this, this isn't Protestantism. So I think 73 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:41,199 that's probably the biggest And then number two might be questions that they have about 74 00:05:42,079 --> 00:05:46,199 the morals changing in the in the world of Protestantism. And again that that 75 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,720 doesn't necessarily go for the conservative Protestant evangelical groups. But I think in the 76 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:54,399 Protestant world, like the I mean, I don't know the numbers per se, 77 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:58,680 but most you know, all the mainline Protestant nominations in the US they 78 00:05:58,959 --> 00:06:02,639 pretty much liberal in the nineteen twenties and thirties. And by that I mean 79 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:09,319 not just you know, caving into higher critical textual scholarship, but also morals. 80 00:06:09,319 --> 00:06:13,839 They began to cave on moral questions and issues. And so I think 81 00:06:13,879 --> 00:06:15,959 that those are probably the two biggest ones, you know, the history of 82 00:06:15,959 --> 00:06:18,920 the church, the Bible, social scriptura. And then I think there's other 83 00:06:18,959 --> 00:06:24,439 issues too, like this debate world. You know, this pops up on 84 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,439 YouTube and the internet. Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of 85 00:06:28,759 --> 00:06:33,560 you know, great chats and discussions and debates going on. That's that's probably 86 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,160 a big factor as well. Well, I agree, yeah, yeah, 87 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:42,680 there's definitely definitely a bigger debate will happen out there. I see that. 88 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,759 Well, yeah, real quick, I noticed. I didn't even know this 89 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,160 until a few days ago. Uh. And obviously I'm not I'm not a 90 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,319 huge fan of TikTok because it's you know, obviously it's a Chinese sort of 91 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:58,560 surveillance app. But I am on there just to put out clips and stuff, 92 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,560 And I didn't realize that I could go live on there until fairly recently, 93 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,639 because you you got to hit a certain tier of subscribers or something. 94 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:10,439 But I went live on TikTok and turns out there's this giant world over there 95 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,399 that's different from you know, YouTube and these other places. There's there's just 96 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,600 masses of Protestants over there. Calvinists are arguing and going crazy, Muslims are 97 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:27,439 going crazy on TikTok. So I've kind of stepped into that whole other mess 98 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,040 of getting on TikTok. And but that's a whole nother, you know field 99 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,000 for potential, you know, new audiences, and TikTok tends to be a 100 00:07:35,079 --> 00:07:40,480 lot of twenty five are really young people over there as well. Yeah, 101 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,439 kids are always dancing on TikTok and stuff like now. But now there's a 102 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,800 whole debate world because they have live streams, so you can live stream for 103 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:48,959 you know, long long form on on TikTok. Now, so there's always 104 00:07:48,959 --> 00:07:56,439 people debating over there. Oh my gosh, well fascinating. Well let's let's 105 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,079 dive into some Calvinism. I know that you you yourself used to be a 106 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:07,079 Calvinist I was a Calvinist as well. You know what led you specifically out 107 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:11,560 of that? Jay, What are some of the issues that you start to 108 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,759 see with it? What was your progression out of that. I'm curious that 109 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:20,360 Father Johathan, did you have a background Protestant? Did you convert or were 110 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,759 you raised ord Rocks? Well? I was theoretically I'm a cradle but when 111 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,879 I was a when I was in high school, around tenth grade, I 112 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,000 started going to a Presbyterian church and attending their Bible studies and their youth pastors. 113 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:37,159 I have to give them a lot of credit. They they taught me 114 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,360 Bible, you know, they really did, and that that has literally stayed 115 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,519 with me for fifty years. A lot of what I learned there, but 116 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,000 they didn't teach a lot of theology. It was here's what the Bible says, 117 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,879 and you know, we kind of read it and read it and read 118 00:08:50,919 --> 00:08:54,600 it and kind of memorized it. So I didn't learn a lot of theology. 119 00:08:54,639 --> 00:08:56,080 So I have to say I don't really come from that kind of a 120 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:03,440 background that experience. My experiences well, that that background and not all Calvinists, 121 00:09:03,519 --> 00:09:07,240 right, We're not saying this all calvin but it's it's definitely like a 122 00:09:07,279 --> 00:09:11,039 debate world for real. When it came to that realm, it's like you 123 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,000 weren't Calvinists enough at times, you know, yeah, right, yeah, 124 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,000 yeah yeah. Like, uh so I got into that when I was about 125 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,320 nineteen. I got into reading the scriptures from an evangelical Bible study I was 126 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,320 invited to when I was eighteen, and then uh kind of eventually wandered my 127 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,039 way into reform Baptist stuff, like you said, because I went to a 128 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,039 Reform Baptist Bible College for a while and there everybody, you know, all 129 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,320 the young guys. We all we did was just kind of you know, 130 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,720 talk about church history and biblical theology all the time, and so we would 131 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,759 get into these debates about well, you know what about you know, the 132 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,799 church fathers, they taught this and that. And I remember there was a 133 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:52,240 really formative situation where I ended up stuck at Bible College throughout the whole winter 134 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,600 break. And so now everybody else left and I was stuck there for the 135 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,320 whole you know, three or four weeks or whatever it was, and I 136 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,639 didn't have anything else to do. So I decided I was going to read 137 00:10:01,639 --> 00:10:05,039 the City of God. So I read from the beginning all the way up 138 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,399 until about page nine hundred, and I wrote down these I wrote down all 139 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,679 these questions because there's nothing else to do. It's just me and in Louisville, 140 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,679 sitting there by myself, and I didn't know anybody. So I just 141 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:16,919 read that the whole time, and I wrote down all these questions. And 142 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:22,120 I took him to a couple of the professors. The a couple of him 143 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,799 are still pretty still teaching Baptist Bible college stuff, and I said, he, 144 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:30,120 here's all these questions. I said, I don't understand how we could 145 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:33,519 believe that. You know, we like Augustine, if you know, he's 146 00:10:33,519 --> 00:10:39,399 got all these things that we think are just you know, Catholic crazy accretions. 147 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,360 And I didn't get very good answers, so I'll just leave it at 148 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,480 that. But eventually they said, well, you might need to leave this 149 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:52,559 this Bible college. This might not be for you. So I didn't. 150 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:56,360 I wasn't ready for any changes at that time, but at that time I 151 00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:00,360 was more so thinking, I'm I think i'll believe in an infant baptism. 152 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,240 I think I believe in patal baptism. And I was reading a bunch of 153 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:09,879 reform stuff from Bonson and Rush Juney and Van Till and all those people. 154 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:13,159 And so I found a PCA church at that time that I liked, which 155 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:18,120 is a Conservative Presbyterians, and met one of the elders there, got to 156 00:11:18,159 --> 00:11:20,720 be kind of friendly with him, and he introduced me to a lot of 157 00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:26,360 stuff that ironically would later point me in the direction out of Protestantism. And 158 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:31,000 so in some of the circles of Presbyterians, there was a movement back then 159 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,279 that's now kind of attached to Doug Wilson's stuff, which is kind of people 160 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,720 looking into high church, you know, liturgy and that kind of stuff in 161 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:41,120 the in the Protestant Reformed world. So I was kind of introduced to these 162 00:11:41,159 --> 00:11:43,960 questions at that time, but I still wasn't ready. I remember, I'll 163 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,679 try to make this short. I don't want to ramble a whole time. 164 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,120 But I met with some Catholic priests just out of curiosity, because I wanted 165 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,240 to know, like, well, what do you guys teach about, you 166 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,000 know, Augustine and Grace and all this stuff. And I remember having you 167 00:11:56,039 --> 00:11:58,799 know, one on ones with several Catholic priests and they said, well, 168 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,799 here's the Catholic Catechism, and I remember getting that and I remember reading through 169 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,559 about half of it. I was like, no, I don't believe a 170 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,120 lot of this stuff. This stuff's crazy. So I wasn't ready for, 171 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,639 you know, marrying stuff, and I thought all that was out there and 172 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:16,720 wild. So but I did have a gradual movement towards reading more and more 173 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:20,360 Church Fathers, and so for me at that time, it was really just 174 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,200 I didn't know about Orthodoxy yet. This was like, this is about two 175 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:28,039 thousand and one, and so I bought the Church Fathers the Chaft Set, 176 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,320 and I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to start reading 177 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,480 this. So I started reading Jerome, and I started reading Ambrose, and 178 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,559 I started reading Cyprian, Saint Cyprian, and I started noticing, well, 179 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,919 these are they don't teach anything like what we teach. So I was out 180 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:45,960 of crossroads and all I knew about at that time. And in two thousand 181 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:50,480 and three ish, the only things on the Internet that you could ever find 182 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,840 were Roman Callic stuff and like Calvinist Protestants everything that that was the debate at 183 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,000 that time, right, all the blogs, all the stuff. All the 184 00:12:58,039 --> 00:13:03,279 forums, you know, you would just see people debating on blogs and websites 185 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:05,360 and forums back and forth. So I just thought that's that was the extent 186 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,759 of the debate. I didn't even know about Orthodoxy except for I'd heard there 187 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,080 was a book by you know, Callistos where about Orthodox Church, but I 188 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,639 didn't have it, so I just didn't think anything about it. Plus I 189 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:22,840 didn't live anywhere near an Orthodox church. So that was probably the hardest decision 190 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,320 for me actually in my life at that time, because I was really I 191 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,559 mean I was a huge student of Bronson vanil Rush Juney. I did a 192 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,320 semester at Bronson's there should we think of Bronson Seminary, So I was learning 193 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:39,039 apologetics from doctor Bonnson. Like Paula Johnathan said, you know, we were 194 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,480 just like I mean, it was just Bible NonStop. I mean we were 195 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,120 like tell Muitic Jews with the Bible. I mean like we were just studying 196 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:54,159 a NonStop. I mean we would have morning Bible before church. Church was 197 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:58,960 like two hours of lectures from Bible. We would have Sunday night Bible study, 198 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:03,200 and then we would have Winday and Friday meetings to read you know, 199 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:09,200 reform theologians, because if you don't, I don't know if you guys know, 200 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:11,799 But like in the Bonds and Rush Janny stuff like, they were theonomists. 201 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:16,720 So they have this very high view of Biblical law and so there's a 202 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:22,440 lot of you know, emphasis on what relevance you know, the Torah has 203 00:14:22,519 --> 00:14:26,279 for today. Now they're not messianic news or anything like that, but they 204 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,600 just have this view that a lot of those laws are applicable to today. 205 00:14:31,399 --> 00:14:33,720 So, you know, there was it was really difficult to move away from 206 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:37,000 that because I was so wedded to it. But one of the things that 207 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,000 really stuck with me was when I read Russiani's book called Foundations of Social Order 208 00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:46,080 and there was a chapter on the Ecumenical councils, and so russianny ironically had 209 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,240 this high view of the ecumenical councils. And I was starting to read The 210 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,639 Church Fathers at that time, and I had read Cyril and I'd read Ephesus, 211 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,120 so I knew kind of what it was all about. And then russianis 212 00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:03,559 take and found of Social Order was actually that he thought, I'm not joking, 213 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,600 He's he thinks that Cyril's position isn't a story as this position, it's 214 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,639 a Russian You got it completely backwards. And that really shook me at the 215 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:13,559 time, and I just I didn't know what to do. I took that 216 00:15:13,639 --> 00:15:16,399 to my reform pastor and said, hey, this is this is totally backwards. 217 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,279 I mean, how could he mess up that? You know that big 218 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,679 and well we're all fallible, Yeah, we're all fallible, but I mean 219 00:15:22,679 --> 00:15:26,519 that's a pretty big mistake if we're going to be saying why we're not why 220 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:31,320 we're reformed. So then I decided it was going to be an issue of 221 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:37,840 not so much this church father versus that church father. What's the root of 222 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:41,480 Protestantism. Well, it's it's ultimately, if you're a classical Protestant, it's 223 00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:45,559 Bible alone, it's soul scripture. That's the ultimate primary authority. So I 224 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:48,320 figured out I'm gonna have to answer this question of how did the cannon come 225 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:54,000 to be? And I listened to tons and tons of Roman Catholic and reform 226 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,960 debates. I went back in the fourth and at that time it was all 227 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,279 you know, James White debating athletics, and it was Jerry Madoti's debating bonds 228 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,039 and all, you know, reform a Catholic debates was about the extent of 229 00:16:04,039 --> 00:16:07,240 all you could find. And I went through all those, and then I 230 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,440 said, the best way to do this would be to read a bunch of 231 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,559 the Protestant evangelical scholars on the history of the formation of the Canon. And 232 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,200 so I read F. F. Bruce's book, and I read Lee McDonald's 233 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,559 book their Evangelical Scholars, and here they are admitting, oh, yeah, 234 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:25,200 of course tradition plays a key role in the Bible. Coming to me, 235 00:16:25,279 --> 00:16:27,679 and I'm like, what so again? And you and you know, you 236 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:32,840 take these questions to your Protestant pastors and well, you know, I don't 237 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:34,440 know. I never read that. Yeah, I haven't looked at that, 238 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,159 but I'm sure we can find somebody that knows. And then they'll refer you 239 00:16:38,279 --> 00:16:42,399 to, you know, some professor at Reformed Theological Seminary or Westminster or whatever. 240 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,279 And I just never really got good answers, and so I decided I 241 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:49,840 would have to be Roman Catholic. So that led me to the Roman Catholic 242 00:16:49,879 --> 00:16:53,080 world. Still didn't know about Orthodoxy when when I bought the church, fathers 243 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:56,480 said, I just assumed that the Western Church fathers had it all right, 244 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,519 right, So I just started reading Jerome, and I started reading you know, 245 00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:04,759 Ambrose and Cyprian and in Augustine, and I just thought, well, 246 00:17:04,839 --> 00:17:08,880 Chris system and you know, he might be all right, and the Capadocians 247 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,759 maybe they're cool, but there's no pressing need for me to read them. 248 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,960 We all believe in the Trinity, right, I mean they were defending the 249 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,400 Trinity. Why do we need to We don't need to rehash that debate. 250 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,079 Yeah, So long story short, Yeah, I went. I went in 251 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,119 that direction. I left the Reformed Church. I started attending a local Catholic 252 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,720 church in two thousand and three, went through what they call Catechumen r CIA, 253 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,720 and UH spent about ten ten years in the Roman Catholic world, got 254 00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:37,880 really serious about attending the traditional Latin Mass. Did that for many, many 255 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,920 years, drove for two hours for probably five or six years to do that 256 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:47,079 in Memphis or Nashville because the only place it would have the Latin Mass that 257 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,279 I could go to. UH. And then and then I got to this 258 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,079 point where it was like I was so immersed in church history. I got 259 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,319 really into Tomism and all that, and it was like, well, what 260 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,960 am I going to do with pre post Vatican two. Long story short, 261 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:03,279 that got me looking at the Orthodox question. I encountered Orthodox blogs in two 262 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:07,720 thousand and six for the first time. I wasn't ready to convert, but 263 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:11,480 I would hash it out, I'd argue with all these different people that were 264 00:18:11,519 --> 00:18:15,720 online in the Orthodox world at that time. Yeah, and so that that 265 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:18,759 kind of led me just to start reading Eastern Fathers. And that took me 266 00:18:18,759 --> 00:18:22,759 another ten years. I wasn't ready to, you know, because I mean 267 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:26,319 I obviously think, well, maybe you're just unstable and you're just converting to 268 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:27,799 one thing in the next. I would actually take long periods of time, 269 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:30,759 right, I was runing CALLICU for about ten years, and it took me 270 00:18:30,839 --> 00:18:34,599 another ten years before I decided that I would go into Orthodoxy. I mean 271 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,519 I held off for a really long time. I say, I had the 272 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:42,880 longest catechumen. It like I intentionally I was a ten year catekid because I 273 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,279 held off a long time. So anyway, I'm sorry, I don't wanna 274 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:48,519 keep talking about myself. It's just kind of rambling and weird. But long 275 00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:52,880 story short, yeah, I just I felt like, ultimately for me, 276 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,400 at the end of the day. The main issue of what led me out 277 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:02,359 of Protestantism was looking into the cannon. It's historical formation, that reliance on 278 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:06,680 church tradition for not just cannons city, but even things like absolutely authorship. 279 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,359 That's those are things that we don't I'm the gospels, they don't name them 280 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:12,400 their author in a case of like Matthew, right, I mean, and 281 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,680 even if it says Matthew, well, there's other gospels that are false gospels 282 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:18,000 you know that we don't accept. Why don't we accept them? So you 283 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:21,240 can't take it just because of the name. Oh, this was the Gospel 284 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,039 of Thomas, Right, Well that's the not we don't want that one. 285 00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:29,240 Well how do we what are we a judge between? Right? So yeah, 286 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:30,039 more I got into the church history, more, I got into the 287 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:33,799 church fathers. More I realized that, well, it just can't be Protestantism. 288 00:19:33,319 --> 00:19:37,319 And I was also, you know, still really into Bible the whole 289 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,440 time, so I would always be encountering passages that didn't fit with the system 290 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,359 that I had. So if you've got this soul of fitte a justiccation by 291 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,839 faith alone, you know, Calvinist, you know Tulip system, you've got 292 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,920 all these problem texts that you're gonna have to deal with, and over time, 293 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,119 more and more of those problem texts just really started mounting up, and 294 00:19:56,119 --> 00:20:00,759 I didn't find the answers really sufficient. But the biggest things actually for in 295 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:06,640 terms of specifically Calvinism and what I would say, it's just really ultimately the 296 00:20:06,759 --> 00:20:11,119 errors of a lot of Latin theology period, would be the questions of absolute 297 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:17,400 divine simplicity and the energies and the issues of Christology. Because once I realized 298 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,880 that Calvinist Christology, even though they don't intend it to be a lot of 299 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,400 times, it actually is a Nestorian Christology. So you can you can take 300 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,400 it in two directions. You can go in Nestorian and you can say that 301 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:34,759 the subject who was punished on the cross by the Father is a human subject, 302 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,880 Jesus of Nazareth, which would be an Astorian option. Or you could 303 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,240 say that the son was damned by the Father, which it would be an 304 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:45,079 area In option, because that would mean the Trinity is no longer you know 305 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,440 one. So so all those are the only two options. If you believe 306 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:55,400 the classical Protestant doctrine of the Sun being punished as the you know, the 307 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,799 payment for the sins of penal substitutionary atonement, right exactly. You mentioned what 308 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,720 must be a beautiful a doctrine. You mentioned what must be a beautiful teaching 309 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,039 and it must be a beautiful thing because it's named after a flower, tulip. 310 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:12,319 I think you mentioned that a moment ago, and Luther and I were 311 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,799 kind of anxious to talk to you about that, but you said something and 312 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,680 I really want to follow up with you on that, and and and that 313 00:21:18,839 --> 00:21:25,440 is we were talking about the the the the incredible explosion and growth of videos 314 00:21:25,519 --> 00:21:30,240 against Orthodoxy. But at the same time, they're a lot of Protestants, 315 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,000 and certainly a lot of Calvinists, they're encountering the Fathers, in some cases 316 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:37,680 for the first time, and they're having to grapple and deal with things. 317 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,559 And they're there, and I've spoken with some of them privately, and it's 318 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,440 they don't want me to quote them, but I mean, what they're saying 319 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:51,119 privately about what they're what they're wrestling over is profound. Do you see a 320 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:56,920 change in Protestantism in general because of this? And I think the encounter maybe 321 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:02,839 goes back only maybe twenty years when when when when this started to get very 322 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,160 serious. Do you see that? I see it, But I mean I'm 323 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,640 wondering what you see in your encounters and talking with people. I'm starting to 324 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:14,839 hear them talk about real presence. I'm talking they're starting to see to pity 325 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:18,039 baptism and things like that, and it's like, oh my god, this 326 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:23,359 is what you guys abhorred thirty years ago, and now you're you're actually saying 327 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,599 there must be something too a Jayder, What do you think? What do 328 00:22:26,599 --> 00:22:29,359 you say? Absolutely? Yeah? I mean, like I said, so, 329 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:36,240 you know, twenty years ago, maybe twenty two or three, the 330 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,960 Presbyterians, the PCA, and some of the OPC people had what they called 331 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,160 the Auburn Avenue Conference, and that was a lot of these guys at that 332 00:22:45,279 --> 00:22:48,440 time dealing with grappling with the things that you're talking about. And so a 333 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:52,000 lot of them were reading Schmaman, Fello Schmaman's books. They were reading books 334 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:57,079 that dealt with liturgical theology. Peter Lightheart, James Jordan, That's the people 335 00:22:57,079 --> 00:23:00,519 I'm talking about, and they're realizing that, hey, there's actually a lot 336 00:23:00,559 --> 00:23:04,519 of liturgy in the Bible. There's actually a lot of symbolism that could point 337 00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:08,359 us in the direction of typology that maybe it's relevant for the New Testament Church. 338 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,880 Maybe vestiments aren't a bad idea, Maybe it's not wrong to have incense, 339 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:18,799 right, So you know, and this is ironic because, like you're 340 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:21,720 saying, thirty forty years ago, the Reform, the Calvinists, you know, 341 00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:25,359 they had this strong position which they call the regulat principle of worship, 342 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,960 which is the idea that laid down in like the Westminster Confession, that you 343 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:36,720 can only worship God in the way that he has explicitly mentioned. But of 344 00:23:36,759 --> 00:23:40,519 course the difficulty there, and I've been making this point quite a lot with 345 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:42,359 the Protestants in the last few years, is that, well, isn't it 346 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,160 odd that the New Testament then doesn't give us a pattern of worship? Now 347 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:52,519 we have Paul of Saint Paul complaining about abuses, but how do we know 348 00:23:52,599 --> 00:23:56,000 the layout of what we're supposed to do? If you're going to make the 349 00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,720 argument, as many Calvinists do, that Nadab and Abihu were put to death 350 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:03,720 because they offered strange fire, they did what they weren't supposed to do in 351 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:08,319 Lett, because because they didn't go according to the explicit commands. Where are 352 00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:12,319 the explicit commands of how you do the worship service? And it's intentionally, 353 00:24:12,319 --> 00:24:17,720 i think, providentially not there because there's a reliance on the fact that the 354 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:23,359 Apostles and that here's the weird part. Every Protestant scholar and even Anglican liturgists 355 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:30,559 that I've read, they admit that the Apostles had some sort of liturgy that 356 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,799 they established in the sea, the seas, the apostlote seas and churches they 357 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:38,039 set up that was some kind of blending of the temple in the synagogue service. 358 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:42,759 This is pretty pretty unanimous in you know, history of liturgy books that 359 00:24:42,799 --> 00:24:45,839 you'll read, even from Protestants. So to me, that was kind of 360 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,200 another big, you know thing when I read that many years ago that I 361 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,279 didn't realize when I was Protestant, that liturgy has a key role in the 362 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:56,319 formation of the Biblical canon. And when I learned that, that was pretty 363 00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:03,680 much I think and see McDonald or Bruster says that you can't divorce the daily 364 00:25:03,759 --> 00:25:08,359 electionaries, the daily readings from the cannon and how the cannon of scripture was 365 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,799 was decided upon in terms of the many centuries actually plus even the fact that 366 00:25:12,839 --> 00:25:17,000 it's centuries and there, you know, the Orthodox view, if we accept 367 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,680 the you know Trolo and I see it too, that's really where they affirm 368 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:27,200 the cannons of Carthage, that lists are loose cannon. You could say that 369 00:25:27,279 --> 00:25:33,359 to me is if you're a Protestants, I will wouldn't If we're Protestants in 370 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,519 the in the first century, the first thing we would do is decide the 371 00:25:36,599 --> 00:25:42,200 cannon. The possibles would have said, hey, we got to have Jerusalem 372 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,160 Council too, right acts fifteen, let's have Jerusalem too right away here? 373 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,000 And I don't know one hundred eighty or ninety eight. I guess they'd all 374 00:25:49,039 --> 00:25:52,279 be dead. But I don't know, right Apple, why didn't Why wouldn't 375 00:25:52,319 --> 00:25:55,839 happen in the you know, John's day? Why wouldn't John. Let's get 376 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,759 together. We got to decide this Bible first. I mean, we're Bible 377 00:25:57,799 --> 00:26:02,960 alone right anyway? So I'm rambling, But again, yeah, I think 378 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:11,440 you're right father, that so many Protestants are beginning to see that there's not 379 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:17,160 just an issue of throwing this or that Bible verse. There's a bigger issue 380 00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:19,640 at work here, which is, how does this Bible come to be, 381 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,880 and the very people that make these decisions about putting these books into the Bible, 382 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:32,759 none of them believe Protestant stuff. And then the option usually for Protestants 383 00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:34,319 at that point. I tried this too. When I first encountered this was 384 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:40,640 well, I'm gonna try to find Protestant issue quotes in the Church Fathers. 385 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,559 Well, you know, one of the other things that people say about the 386 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,000 IM not gonna go into this, but just regarding the Cannon is that the 387 00:26:48,039 --> 00:26:52,880 Cannon was formed very early. Excuse me, the lectionary was formed very early. 388 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,359 And one of the reasons why Revelation was debated for the longest time because 389 00:26:56,599 --> 00:27:00,640 one of the arguments was people at point and say, it's not electionary, 390 00:27:00,759 --> 00:27:03,319 right, you know, it's not already one of the books that we're reading. 391 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,519 So anyway, but we got we got so much more we want to 392 00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:10,759 go into. Here. One point on that which a lot of people don't 393 00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:12,440 know about. I think it's in the in the Lee McDonald book. If 394 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,200 you read the Lee McDonald book, he said, there's a whole chapter and 395 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:22,640 they're on how Saint Athanasius went to Rome and Rome was doubting. Uh, 396 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:30,079 the Catholic Epistles and Revelation, and Athanasius said, it's our tradition that this 397 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,599 is this is a valid book, you should include it. So it's actually 398 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,839 the Pope of Rome was convinced to keep the Catholic Epistles in the Roman Canon 399 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,960 by Saint Athanasius. And if when you start to realize that, you know, 400 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,920 in the Protestant mindset is kind of like social scripture, the Bible just 401 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,559 sort of like falls out of heaven as this like complete thing, and then 402 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:52,440 you realize, no, actually, the history is God using people through divine 403 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,480 providence, like Athanasius to say, and I'm not saying that, I'm not 404 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,119 saying it's true because Rome said. I'm just saying that it is important that 405 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,799 Rome included the Apocalypse in the Cannon. But it wasn't just the pope saying 406 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,279 I had decree the apocalypse is like, no, it's autonaceous had to go 407 00:28:10,279 --> 00:28:17,400 convince them. It's interesting that earlier you mentioned like as you were thinking through 408 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,599 that calvinistic system of yours, like you're really you're seeing scriptures like that weren't 409 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,079 really, you know, compatible with your your calvinistic beliefs. And I actually 410 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,519 had a similar kind of experience at my previous church when I, you know, 411 00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,640 I was asked to preach. We're preaching through the Sermon on the Mount, 412 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,000 and I was just like, man like, justification seems like a process, 413 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:41,799 and you know, like as you walk through the Sermon on the Mount, 414 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,200 like texts I was struggling with was like judge not unless you be judging 415 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,519 the measure that you judge, you'll be judging. Or also the you know, 416 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:52,319 texts about forgiveness like forgive so that your heavenly Father would forgive you. 417 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,720 And I'm just like, man like, how do I preach this text? 418 00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:57,920 And I was like struggling because I was on stage. I was like, 419 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,960 yeah, this is what scholars you know say like RC spoil this that in 420 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,319 the third and and here you know, so like I had this, I 421 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,079 was I was almost like arrested to the text in a way where I was 422 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,400 like I had to give two views because I didn't know what to do because 423 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,240 I was like, clearly the text is saying something different than what Calvinism teach. 424 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,519 What would you say for you were kind of those things that you looked 425 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,680 at and you were just saying this, this does not work there were so 426 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:27,440 many. I mean, I remember thinking, you know, like the parable 427 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,799 of the of the sower. You know, in Calvinism, if you're regenerated, 428 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,400 you're regenerated, right, that doesn't go away because only the elect are 429 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,200 regenerated. But in the parable of the sower, it's very clearly the analogies 430 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:47,519 is that one of the seeds sprouts up two new life and withers the ways 431 00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:49,799 and dies. And I could never make sense of that, and of course 432 00:29:49,839 --> 00:29:56,039 you have to say things like, well it didn't really spring up today is 433 00:29:56,119 --> 00:30:00,359 the analogy doesn't work anymore if it didn't really spring up to new life. 434 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,759 And you know, there's there's so many other passages like that, where you 435 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,039 know in Hebrews, you know, you have the passage about tasting of the 436 00:30:07,039 --> 00:30:11,160 heavenly gift, and you know they've been washed, they've tasted of the life 437 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,279 to come. How do you taste of the life to come? If? 438 00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:19,160 I mean, that could only be a regeneration and you can't be unregenerated if 439 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:25,640 you're regenerated. So you know, so many of those passages were difficult passages 440 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,960 too that related to baptism. I noticed that, you know, every time 441 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:34,720 we would talk about the right of baptism. It was distinct from all those 442 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:40,160 things in the New Testament about baptism. And it's like, well, you 443 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:45,759 know, how come Paul isn't distinguishing visible invisible church, visible baptism from invisible 444 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:51,079 baptism. Right, It's always spoken of as this unitive act, even to 445 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,039 the point of you know, TIEDUS three five, the washing of the labor 446 00:30:53,079 --> 00:31:00,200 of regeneration. And it's like, this seems to be an the grace and 447 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:04,240 the sacrament, the physical elements are united here. And so the more I 448 00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,720 noticed this union, and the more I noticed that, well, now wait 449 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:11,920 a minute. So we're doing the same thing with ecclesiology, where we're saying 450 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,119 that the church is invisible, it's a spiritual thing, and then there's this 451 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,640 visible church. It's kind of a big mess, right, and the true 452 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,599 elector amongst the you know, all these different groups. And it's like what 453 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,680 Paul is always saying, one Lord, one faith, one body, one 454 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,359 baptism. It's always joined. Great and those were you know, when I 455 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:36,160 would think about those pastors another here's an overlooked one too that really stuck with 456 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,920 me. When I was a Calvinist, I remember, you know, I 457 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,960 was really into Covenant theology. If you're reformed, you know you love Covenant 458 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:47,480 theology, you really want to you want to stress Covenant theology when you're discussing 459 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,160 with a dispensationalist or a Baptists. You want to say, hey, you 460 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,160 know, we've got these Covenant blessings just like or even better than the Old 461 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,839 Testament that people had. You know, we can we have people included in 462 00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:01,079 the Covenant more so, right because if you in the Old Testament, you 463 00:32:01,119 --> 00:32:05,240 know it was the males that were circumcised to be included in the Covenant. 464 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:07,960 Now it's anybody, men, women, gentiles, everybody can be included in 465 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,960 the Covenant. But then I realized, well, I'm making an argument against 466 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,640 a Baptist or against a dispensationalist. That's historical. And then I started thinking, 467 00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:23,240 you know, the history of the Covenant and the Old Testament is one 468 00:32:23,359 --> 00:32:28,720 people, right, And yeah, you in the Old Testament. Certainly other 469 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:31,240 people outside the nation of Israel could be joined to the Nation of Israel as 470 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,559 possible. But the point is that there's one group or church called the people 471 00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:39,880 of Israel, the Ecclesia. And then in the New Testament, if I'm 472 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,680 going to make that historical argument. I can't just restrict it to the New 473 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,119 Testament. There seems to be one historical group as well in the New Testament, 474 00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:52,000 and so the church has to also be just as one, and even 475 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,839 more so one because it's post Pentecost than the Old Testament Church. And so 476 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,240 I realized that I couldn't argue that the Church which existed amongst thirty thousand different 477 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:07,000 groups, right, it has to be a single visible and all the analogies 478 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:10,759 that not just Paul, but Jesus uses right, the tree, one tree, 479 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:16,119 the sheep fold, right, it's all these united things that are also 480 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,440 united in history. Doesn't mean that the Church doesn't have periods of schisms and 481 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,599 stuff like that, But I'm just saying that there's also a historical continuity to 482 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,359 the historicity of God's people being a single people. J Jay. When we 483 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,799 talk in orthodoxy about what's central to our to our faith, what's central to 484 00:33:34,799 --> 00:33:38,279 our church, we talk about across the death the resurrection. Is it fair 485 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:44,200 to say that when you were a Calvinist that rather than that? Is it 486 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:52,319 fair to say that Tulip was the foundational center of Calvinist theology rather than across 487 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:57,599 the death the resurrection is is that it's another angle. That's a great critique, 488 00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:01,000 you know, because you would if you read the pistoles, you know, 489 00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:07,240 Paul. Paul's always stressing those things. The gospel is death row resurrection. 490 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,000 The gospel is that, And then if you're a Calvinist, you're thinking, 491 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,119 well, that's not really the gospel. The gospel is Romans nine and 492 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:16,440 the Divine decree, right, I mean, the gospel is this sort of 493 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:22,360 process of you knowing the divine minds decree of who the elect are, and 494 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,440 then understanding that there's total pravity, that you don't have the ability to move 495 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:31,239 yourself towards God, that you have to have irresistible grace and monarchism, which 496 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,280 is the divine energy has to act in you to cause you effectually to believe. 497 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,320 So there's a loss of synergism and all that in the process of salvation, 498 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,800 and there's no notion of losing that faith falling away because the elect are 499 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,679 that's who Christ died for limited atonement, right, irresistible grace, and then 500 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:54,639 perseverance, meaning that only the elect ultimately persevere. So yeah, that's that's 501 00:34:54,639 --> 00:35:00,239 an interesting angle as well, that you know, it's kind of like when 502 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,920 you're when you're if you're an evangelical Baptist not Reformed. You know, you 503 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,239 think when somebody says, what's the gospel, and you think, oh, 504 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,159 it's Romans Road. You know, you go to Romans three and you didn't 505 00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:10,559 understand that you're a sinner, and then you go over here you can't do 506 00:35:10,639 --> 00:35:13,960 good, and then you go here to Romans five that you know, just 507 00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:20,679 five by it. So it's like this, that's the pathway that supposedly lowest 508 00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:23,400 common when I'm in their scales the gospel down, but that's not what Paul 509 00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:28,400 says. How come Paul's always saying resurrection, resurrection, ascension, ascension, 510 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,280 and I just, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like at a certain point 511 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:37,480 you realize, you know, those weren't really significant and reform theology or Pentecost, 512 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:42,320 I mean, even the action of Pentecost. It's like I realized eventually 513 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,719 that well, Pentecost is the empowering of the church, and Jesus says, 514 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,519 I'm not going to leave you and forsake you, and I'll guide you into 515 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:52,000 all truth. And yet here we are, as Protestants and reform we're saying 516 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,320 we'll ride away that. You know, the church pretty much failed historically, 517 00:35:57,039 --> 00:36:00,159 right, But where was this promise of pentecost and guidance and so forth. 518 00:36:00,199 --> 00:36:02,760 Oh, well, that's only for the elect. But wait a minute. 519 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,719 When Paul writes to the Ephesians when he's talking about predestination, he's not writing 520 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,960 to the elect, to the invisible church. He's writing to the invisible community 521 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:17,159 at Ephesis. And that was always a problem for me in terms of exegesis 522 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,880 of Ephesians, because I have a you know, million reform commentaries and I'm 523 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,639 over here reading Charles Hodge and you know how to see exegy, you know 524 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,559 Ephesians. Oh, this is Paul writing to the regenerated officis, to the 525 00:36:29,599 --> 00:36:32,679 elect. No, it's written to the invisible church. And that's a problem. 526 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,519 That means that the Protestant, the Calvinist auction predestination is not what's in 527 00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,320 Paul's mind there. So, long story short, the essence of what you're 528 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:47,440 asking is that the the Tulip approach is the wrong order of theology, the 529 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,960 wrong order of theology. It's reading theology from trying to do it from the 530 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,400 vanished point of the divine mind to divine decree but that's not how we do 531 00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,519 it. Theology is read first and foremost trying to and christology wise. Then 532 00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:07,000 that leads you to how you would understand steriology and ecclesiology basic. So if 533 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,480 you try to start with the divine decree, start with steriology right, justification 534 00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:16,480 by faith alone, that's the gospel, he gets all messed up, and 535 00:37:16,519 --> 00:37:22,599 then you get people. Then down the road your trinitarian christological stuff's all messed 536 00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:28,360 up because you have to squeeze Jesus being damned into the priest oppositions that you 537 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,480 have of justification by faith alone, and both of you coming from a Calvinist 538 00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:36,760 background, it would seem to me there's another big thing missing out of this 539 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:42,880 is that you can take the center and you can forgive the sinner all you 540 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,320 want, forgive, forget, forgive, forget, forgive. That center is 541 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,840 still going to die. You haven't in the Calvinist it seems to me, 542 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,000 and I could be wrong. In the Calvinist way of looking at things, 543 00:37:52,039 --> 00:38:00,079 you still haven't dealt with death, and Christ destroyed death, so that the 544 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,840 sin they're still forgiven. Who's still having to deal with the sin in him, 545 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,840 the sinful nature and so forth, could live. And it seems like 546 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,760 that that's missing, that the idea that Christ destroyed death. Yeah, the 547 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:20,440 ultimate that's missing from Calvinist theology. It's a crucial point because in Calvinist theology, 548 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:25,559 death is kind of like a necessary it's it's a necessary element under the 549 00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:30,480 divine decree. Right, So it's not the enemy of God. It's sort 550 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:35,480 of just the tool of God. And certainly, certainly God's providence covers evil 551 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:38,119 and death, but it doesn't mean that he positively wills or decrees it. 552 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:42,719 In fact, Scripture says God does not will death. And you know in 553 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,360 Californid's got these different wills. So he's got one will where it's like he 554 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,639 doesn't really want it, but then he's got a secret will where he's like 555 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:57,800 doing it. It's crazy. Yeah, So this is this is a huge 556 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,840 gap. You're absolutely right, and it ties into the notion that you can 557 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:06,599 be saved and justified and righteous and have no no actual holiness. Right, 558 00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:10,360 that's the that's a weird thing that actually encountered that in a lot of the 559 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,199 Roman Catholic critiques of Protestantism when I was looking at Roman Catholicism, because they 560 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,920 made a great point. I think it was. It was I think it 561 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,360 was on Eck. There's a there's an old book that is ex debate with 562 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,840 Luther. It's actually a really good book. I'm not I'm not advocating Roman 563 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,280 Catholicism. I'm just saying that Eck has some really good arguments in that debate 564 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,440 with Luther, and he's and and some of the topics brought up are things 565 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:42,519 like, well, how can God call somebody righteous if in fact they're completely 566 00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:45,559 wicked? As you say, Luther, right, your your filthy rags. 567 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:50,159 Luther was even more radical and depravity than Calvin was because Luther wrote Bondage of 568 00:39:50,159 --> 00:39:52,400 the Will, which is basically arguing that you can you can't do anything good 569 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:59,079 at all. He's more radical just on that point than Calvin is. Well, 570 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:02,840 He's says that you're a you're a you're an ass that's either written by 571 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,039 God or the devil, but the devil. Yeah, And that's in that 572 00:40:07,079 --> 00:40:10,000 Bondage of the Will book. And I had a payse where I read I 573 00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:14,159 read the private six Luther books. I was really enamored with Luther for maybe 574 00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:15,679 a year or two. I wasn't Lutheran, but I just thought he was 575 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:21,559 an interesting, you know, bombastic figure. But uh, you know, 576 00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,159 acc was making these points that, well, doesn't that make God a liar? 577 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:28,760 How can God call you righteous when in fact you're evil and God can't 578 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,840 lie, So how's that possible? Oh well, he's just seeing the righteousness 579 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,920 of Christ's covering you. But it's not actually the reckness of Christ. It's 580 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,960 actually just a legal status. Great. And then there's a great point that 581 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:45,079 I think it's brought up in the Alistair McGrath Eustecia day Book, which is 582 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:51,360 that nobody before nominalism in the Middle Ages and the Reformed, the rise of 583 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:58,960 the Reformed tradition, they didn't think of a division between what you called something 584 00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:04,440 and it's actual a mentaphysical status. That's an actual post Enlightenment, postal Reformation 585 00:41:04,519 --> 00:41:08,800 division. In other words, it's impossible to have that view, that nominalist 586 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:14,559 view prior to medieval nominalism debates. So, in other words, nobody in 587 00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:19,119 the ancient medieval world, including Paul, thought that you could have a purely 588 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,679 legal status of righteousness divorced from the actual ontological status if you're being righteous. 589 00:41:24,039 --> 00:41:28,320 And that's a little bit of a philosophical angle on it. But if that 590 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,559 is the case, and I think that it is, that's also really devastating 591 00:41:30,599 --> 00:41:37,440 to the idea that you can be just before God in a purely nominal legal 592 00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,679 sense and not in an actual sense. There wasn't a division in the world. 593 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,440 And ladies and gentlemen watching this debate sometime in the future of this recording, 594 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:50,079 go back and listen to what Jay just said. Listen to that again. 595 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,519 That's really something. Yeah, there's no division. And the same thing 596 00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:58,960 goes for sacraments, right the ancient and medieval world. Now, certainly there 597 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,079 were heretics that deny the real presence, but they didn't typically think of this 598 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:10,840 radical division between uh sign and signifier. Right. The same goes for iconography, 599 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,960 the image of the icon, the image of the saint. They didn't 600 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,079 think of it as this radical division of oh, that's just a purely token 601 00:42:19,199 --> 00:42:23,280 symbol. They thought of it as having in some sense a real, real 602 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:29,199 metaphysical connection with the person that being the thing. Right, So there might 603 00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:31,719 have been debates about the real presence, but nobody thought about it. As 604 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:39,239 you know, symbols in the ancient world were not sure dead matter. Does 605 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,719 that make sense? Yeah, well, that's what they think of it today, 606 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,400 that's not what they thought of it back then. The word symbol is 607 00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:49,000 is radically altered now from what it meant two thousand years ago. There you 608 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,199 go, yeah, yeah, because you're clashing two things together is out? 609 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:58,840 Yeah you So so this question here, I got to ask you this so 610 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,199 that Daniel, Daniel MacArthur, if you're listening, he wanted me to ask 611 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:07,920 Jay Die this when when the opportunity presented sself. So you're welcome. So 612 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:15,159 basically you touched up on this idea of the Christology, this reformed Christology. 613 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,440 Now it's been kind of you know, you know, mutulated in a way. 614 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,719 Can you can you speak more into that. I know you referenced you 615 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,440 know where that kind of gets messed up, But it's a it's an important 616 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,159 point. Daniel said that was something that was very convincing for him as well. 617 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,760 Back in the day. You've you've had videos where you've talked about this, 618 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,159 But could you kind of walk through why that Christology issue is such a 619 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:43,280 huge point and why it's a radical Sure, So I would say I'm not 620 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,400 saying that Protestants are intentionally wanting to be an a Storian. Sure, a 621 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,679 lot of times when I make this point, though, say I'm not in 622 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,159 the Storian. I don't believe that. I'm not saying that you're intending to 623 00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:59,280 be. What I'm saying is that the logic of the penal substitution position will 624 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:06,119 take you there if you're consistent with it, and it's pretty clear cut. 625 00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:12,320 I think that now some Protestants and Evangelicals today, I mean maybe maybe Calvinists 626 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,519 are up in the air today. I'm not sure I did hear that one. 627 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,960 Somebody told me that one of the modern Calvinist systematic theologians, I don't 628 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,960 remember who it was, maybe Robert Raymond or somebody. Somebody supposedly doesn't have 629 00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:28,800 the classical Reformation view that that Jesus was damned in our place. But for 630 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:37,639 the classical reformers even up in two people like Ji Packer, uh, Paul 631 00:44:37,679 --> 00:44:46,079 Washer teaches it right. Here's the other, the Calvinist Baptist guy that everybody 632 00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:51,639 that's super famous I always good blank on his name, John John Piper, 633 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,880 John Piper Teacher hyper teaches that Christ was damned. I'm trying to think of 634 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:00,880 who the classical guys all that's really cool damns himself. I like that one 635 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:06,800 boy. Yeah, well, I mean they're trying to be consistent because so 636 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:13,360 you have you know, you have in the Apostles Creed. I know that's 637 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,079 not really an Orthodox church. But in the West, when Luther or Calvin 638 00:45:16,079 --> 00:45:20,119 and these guys, when they were commenting on Christ's descent into Hades and the 639 00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:24,280 Apostles Creed, they had to give it a new understanding because unfortunately, even 640 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,760 though the Latin Church in the West at that time they I believe that they 641 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,239 had kind of lost the significance of Christ has sent into Hades, it was 642 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:37,559 still it was still there in confession, and even today in the Catholic Catechism 643 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:42,400 it's still there that they professed that Christ has sent it into the Hades. 644 00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:45,360 But the Reformers, this is a fascinating They gave it a new spin. 645 00:45:45,639 --> 00:45:49,519 They said, well, it's not him actually going to someplace called Hades. 646 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:59,519 What that means is that on the cross he experienced the reality of the damn 647 00:45:59,559 --> 00:46:02,880 nation and of all the people that he died for. The logic of that 648 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,159 is that if it's going to be a full transaction in a legal sense, 649 00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:12,400 if he's going to pay the debt that I out he paid up old. 650 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:15,119 You know, I can't remember that Baptist him we used to sing when I 651 00:46:15,159 --> 00:46:19,039 was a kid. But so right, I mean, if the debt is, 652 00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:21,880 if it's a one to war, you've got to pay the damnation, 653 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:28,599 which was to me that I then get the bank account righteousness put into my 654 00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:30,639 bank account. Right, That's how it works in the classical Protestant idea. 655 00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:35,239 So it's not just them saying, oh, well, God just forgives you 656 00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,159 and transfers the righteous of Christ to your bank account. It's on the basis 657 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:45,079 of and most of the classical reformers the wrath of the Father being poured out 658 00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:50,199 on the sun. So then we have this question in terms of Christology, 659 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,400 which is that, well, we're going to be orthodox in our christology, 660 00:46:53,559 --> 00:46:58,599 how does that actually work? Because is it the Father damning the sun? 661 00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:04,159 And if you believe ephesis and the Christology that you know comes out of well 662 00:47:04,199 --> 00:47:08,599 not just emphasis but calconon, then we know that the subject is a divine 663 00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:15,199 person, the logos is the divine person who's undergoing supposedly this event, and 664 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,760 that would mean then that the divine person of the Father is damning the divine 665 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,760 person of the Logos who's incarnated. So you kind of only have two options 666 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,280 there. You can say, well, it's not the father damning the divine 667 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,639 son, it's the damnation of the human nature. Well, but it's there's 668 00:47:31,639 --> 00:47:35,480 has to be one person. Yeah, there's got to be some subject that 669 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,679 is the recipient of that. It can't just be the human nature that's damn. 670 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,519 It has to be a subject. And so is that Jesus of Nazareth 671 00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:45,159 the historical person. Well, that would be an a story in view that 672 00:47:45,559 --> 00:47:51,559 the story is sought a dual subject Christology, that there was a human hypostasis 673 00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:54,079 Jesus Nazareth, and then there's the divine hypostasis of the Logos, who was 674 00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:59,519 kind of sometimes present, and then sometimes it's the human person sometimes. So 675 00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:04,320 it's this weird dual subject Cristology. And the whole point of that tokos the 676 00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,159 word the phrase is, Cyril said, this completely cuts out the whole idea 677 00:48:08,199 --> 00:48:13,920 of there being a dual subject Cristology. The only subject for all the incarnate 678 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,800 action, Cyril says, is the divine person of the Logos. That's it. 679 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,960 He is a full human nature, but he's not a human hypostasis or 680 00:48:20,039 --> 00:48:23,239 person. And so if we accept Ephesus and that teaching. Then what happened, 681 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:28,360 and by the way, Calcedon as well, because a lot of people 682 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,920 don't know. People think Leo is the measure of Calcedon. That's not actually 683 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:37,880 true. They measured the tone of Leo against Cyril, So Calceldon is actually 684 00:48:38,159 --> 00:48:45,320 Kirillion, not primarily Pope sa Leo. Now point being, then the other 685 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,880 option is I could say, well, in this transactional event, I could 686 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:53,559 say that the divine person of the Sun is the one that's damned. But 687 00:48:53,639 --> 00:49:00,320 this presents so many trinitarian difficulties that it's almost just unimaginable. I mean, 688 00:49:00,639 --> 00:49:06,559 first of all, the persons of the triads share the same will. There's 689 00:49:06,599 --> 00:49:10,880 one willing God. Great, how could you have one will the person the 690 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,199 Father of setting his will against the son to damn the son, right, 691 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,840 how could you? You would? We would lose paracorisis the divine involved right, 692 00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,679 the Father and the spirit would no longer dwell the son if you's damned, 693 00:49:22,159 --> 00:49:24,760 because he's a curu. So it's just absurd, it would be it 694 00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,400 would be anti trinitarian. But that they wouldn't have those teachings to begin with, 695 00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:34,719 because from Protestants from the Reformation on think of how much they were simply 696 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,840 inventing because everything was anti Catholic at that point. So if the Catholics believe 697 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,760 it, we don't, then what do we believe? And then they have 698 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,599 to come up with this kind of stuff as something, because what are the 699 00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:46,679 people waiting for? You know, well, if you read Lutheran Calvin, 700 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:52,440 there's always this sort of verbal credence given to things like Chalcedon and so forth. 701 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:58,320 Are Oddly enough, the Westminster Confession, if I recall, which is 702 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:05,239 post Calvin, it actually does. It gives verbal credence to Christ having two 703 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,280 wills and two natures, which is the you know, fifth and six Councils 704 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:14,119 explicate that. But you know, the six Council goes really deep into two 705 00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,920 energies, so you know, you have to have the essence energy sanction doctrine 706 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:22,920 and to have two wills and to energy. And to my knowledge, there's 707 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,000 no Protestant that that I have an essence innergy sanction doctrine, unless it's just 708 00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:28,800 people modern people just kind of saying, oh, I like that idea, 709 00:50:29,599 --> 00:50:32,079 it's cool. But but Calvin, I think, you know, and then 710 00:50:32,159 --> 00:50:35,760 I've read the entire institute's how to read that for bonds and seminary. They 711 00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,320 manage with the whole thing, all fifteen hundred pages of it. And I 712 00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,679 remember there are sections where Calvin's you know, he's like, well, you 713 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:45,519 know, we believe in two natures and two wills, and that's consistent with 714 00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,360 Calcedon, and we definitely believe. We don't believe Calson's infallible, but we 715 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,159 definitely believe what it teaches. But they don't really understand the implications of it, 716 00:50:53,159 --> 00:50:58,880 you know, it's more than just verbal verbal credence, right, right, 717 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,480 Well, Jay, what do we do with a person comes along and 718 00:51:01,679 --> 00:51:07,559 says something like, you know, I'm not okay, I'm not reformed or 719 00:51:07,679 --> 00:51:12,679 Calvinist anymore. I'm a Bible believing Christian. You know, you have a 720 00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:15,960 lot of I'm a Bible believing Christian. If that's all they are, how 721 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:22,760 do you show them that they're no better off from ancient Apostolic Christianity. And 722 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,119 you've probably encountered a lot of this, right, Yeah, yeah, I 723 00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:29,679 mean there's a lot of a lot of difference. Yeah, right, Well, 724 00:51:30,199 --> 00:51:32,800 I find it typically the most beneficial to go into just saying, well, 725 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,840 who do you think put the Bible together? You know, I mean, 726 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,639 did it just happen on it fall out of the sky. I mean 727 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:43,920 there's a real historical process to that that you can't you can't divorce the divine 728 00:51:44,079 --> 00:51:49,400 from the human in this regard. So just as just as in Christology, 729 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,559 for example, I know evangelicals might not know about Christology, but for you 730 00:51:52,559 --> 00:51:55,880 guys, for Orthodox people, like, we know there's a synergy in Christ, 731 00:51:57,039 --> 00:52:00,440 right, there's a synergism between the human nature and the divine nature in 732 00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:05,800 Christ. And we know there's a synergy in terms of our participation in grace. 733 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,320 Right, we are always cooperating. Paul says, I'm a cooperator, 734 00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:13,000 co worker with Christ work. Yeah, yeah, So there's always synergy. 735 00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:15,320 It's never gone, it's never lost. And you know, one of the 736 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:22,239 problems in Calvinism is that conversion requires God stepping in and basically taking over. 737 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:27,880 So it's a monarchistic view, and if they were consistent, I think they 738 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:30,559 would also have to be monarchists in terms of Christology as well. So it 739 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,639 seems to me that they would prefer severus and purists, you know, the 740 00:52:35,639 --> 00:52:38,199 people that Maximus in the Church fathers argued with they would be more like a 741 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:45,280 Coptic my ephysite type of position if they wanted to really be monargist. But 742 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,760 but for the typically evangelical, I would say, one thing I found really 743 00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,199 effective is to point out, you know, they'll always say, well, 744 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:54,960 we're not saved by works, bro, you can't be saved by works. 745 00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:59,000 You know, we're justified by faith and not works. And I said, 746 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,119 well, how does what is es to describe faith? As they're like, 747 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,840 it's a gift? Yeah, but what does he say? He says, 748 00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:08,519 this is the work of God that you believe on him. So wait a 749 00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:13,239 minute, So faith is actually a work according to Christ, to the Gospel 750 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:17,760 John. So it can't be the case that no works are necessary, because 751 00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,360 every evangelical is gonna at least say, well, you do have to believe 752 00:53:22,519 --> 00:53:24,800 when not wait a minute, it doesn't believe something I do. Even if 753 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,840 you think that it's just a mental notional thing, it's still something I gotta 754 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,199 do with your will. Well, but it's a gift. Yeah, but 755 00:53:32,199 --> 00:53:38,000 it's still something I gotta do, right, so's they can't totally divorce the 756 00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:42,800 human element from it at all. And then then I would point out, 757 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,880 well, one thing that happens in the history of this debate of justification by 758 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:54,320 faith alone is that the people who defend it oftentimes totally disagree amongst themselves as 759 00:53:54,400 --> 00:54:00,400 to what it actually means. So, for example, does my faith in 760 00:54:00,639 --> 00:54:06,199 the atoning, death, row resurrection work of Christ is that if I put 761 00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:07,840 all my faith and trust in that alone? Is that just a case by 762 00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:14,360 faith alone? Or as many of the classical Reformed actually said and Lutherans do, 763 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,199 I also have to know and believe in justification by faith alone. To 764 00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:22,239 be justified by faith alone, you see. So you can sort of pile 765 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:30,159 on the difficulties there to illustrate that what sounds perhaps as a very clear you 766 00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:32,719 know, the perspecutive scripture that sounds is a very clear doctrine, Actually isn't 767 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,199 that clear? What does it actually mean? And I would point out one 768 00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:39,599 one other strong point, which I learned when I was Catholic, was you 769 00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:45,880 know, if you look at Romans four when Paul cites Genesis, and it 770 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:52,280 doesn't matter whether you're a Protestant, Evangelical or a calumnist, Abraham's what they 771 00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:58,079 call transition from wrath to grace. This is the idea that before you regenerate 772 00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,519 your God's enemy. You're a child of wrath. Got h Right, When 773 00:55:00,519 --> 00:55:05,199 you're regenerated, that's what they call the transition from wrath to grace. Now 774 00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,800 God loves you. You're a friend of God. You're regenerated. The transition 775 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:15,400 from wrath to grace in Abraham's life should be, if you're a good Protestant, 776 00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:21,159 Genesis twelve. But I remember noticing it one day when I was looking 777 00:55:21,199 --> 00:55:25,239 at the Catholic stuff back in twenty four. Actually, Paul cites Genesis fifteen, 778 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,960 or the passage supposed to be supposedly the ultimate passage Romans for you know, 779 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:36,880 defending justification by faith alone. Why is Paul citing the wrong chapter? 780 00:55:37,519 --> 00:55:44,239 Abraham has already done three chapters of righteous works from twelve to fifteen. Paul's 781 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,039 using the text in fifteen that he was justified by faith. He was righteous 782 00:55:47,079 --> 00:55:52,280 by faith, not Genesis twelve. And that always bugged me because he should 783 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:58,000 have cited Genesis twelfth. Right, if we're Protestants, but if righteousness from 784 00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:02,480 God is something that is an actual power that we participate with and synergize with. 785 00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,800 Right, and Paul's point, of course, I think we all know 786 00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:09,639 Paul's point is not that there's no works that we do. Paul's point is 787 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:15,239 that the works of the ceremonial law and circumcision didn't make Abraham righteous. That's 788 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:21,159 the point of that passage. The mosaic law didn't make because if mosaic law 789 00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,360 was necessary, then how are people before mosaic law ross. Paul's point not 790 00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:29,920 that we don't do any works at all. Right, So, but if 791 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:35,679 the Protestant reading, whether your Calvinists or evangelical, of Romans four, is 792 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:42,519 what Romans four is, Paul should have sided Genesis twelve. Yeah, thanks, 793 00:56:43,599 --> 00:56:46,840 yeah, no, good point, good point. Wow, Well other 794 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,920 things too. I would say to one other point. You know, when 795 00:56:51,679 --> 00:56:58,239 when God speaks, it occurs, it's efficacious. Right, God speaks, 796 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:00,840 the world comes to be. And so if God speaks, you're righteous. 797 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,679 God speaks a word into our hearts. New Testament says, right, it's 798 00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,639 efficacious. I don't mean this in the sense of like irresistible grace, but 799 00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:15,119 I'm saying it's not possible for God to say you are righteous, you'd be 800 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:22,519 Luther and you not be that right because His word is efficacious. M Yeah, 801 00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:28,880 good stuff, good stuff. Father, As as we come to close, 802 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,000 bather. Now you're about to say something. Well, I think we 803 00:57:32,119 --> 00:57:40,519 have kind of one last thing we'd like to ask Jay, And this kind 804 00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:45,400 of wraps back to the to the first question. So many Protestant videos coming 805 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:49,079 out why you should leave Orthodoxy, Why you should become a Protestant. Let's 806 00:57:49,119 --> 00:57:55,840 turn that around. Why is Eastern Orthodoxy a better alternative for Protestants? Maybe 807 00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:00,800 two or three reasons, Jay, What do you think right? Well, 808 00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:07,960 I would say that, you know, but between product I was raised Evangelical 809 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:13,039 Baptists and Calvinists for many years and then it's been about a decade and run 810 00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:16,800 with allticism. I would say that a lot of what both Roman Catholics and 811 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:22,239 Protestants and Evangelicals are looking for are it's kind of in that midway of the 812 00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:27,079 Orthodox Church. So a lot of people are looking for while I want Bible, 813 00:58:27,679 --> 00:58:30,280 but I'm but this seems to be like just Bible alone doesn't work right, 814 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,320 because it's like, ultimately, at the end of the day, if 815 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,760 you're a Protestant, you might like your pastor you might like your community, 816 00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,800 but they don't really have authority. And at the end of the day, 817 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:45,159 it's kind of like you and your Bible right, and that's that. I 818 00:58:45,159 --> 00:58:50,000 mean, I know that Protestants recognize that there's an authority that elders have, 819 00:58:50,119 --> 00:58:53,239 but I'm saying that in terms of the church, I think that whole thing 820 00:58:53,320 --> 00:59:00,639 is disastrous because there's not a body that can actually govern. And one thing 821 00:59:00,639 --> 00:59:05,039 I noticed too, was that you in the in Paul's epistles, for example, 822 00:59:05,039 --> 00:59:08,679 of the Corinthians, he says that you should excommunicate the people that are 823 00:59:08,719 --> 00:59:14,239 really causing these troubles in the church. And then if you read the Councils, 824 00:59:14,239 --> 00:59:15,440 you know, all the way up until the triumph of Orthodoxy in the 825 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:22,199 Seventh Council and in the Sonouticon, you have the continuation of the idea that 826 00:59:22,239 --> 00:59:25,280 the church has the authority to excommunicate. And if you're a Protestant, I 827 00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,239 mean, the only time I've ever encountered a Protestant ever even thinking of excommunicating 828 00:59:30,239 --> 00:59:35,159 it was in a very small Presbyterian Reform group. They were the only Protestants 829 00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:37,639 I've ever heard. Maybe there's Protestant churches other and I saw I'm not saying 830 00:59:37,639 --> 00:59:45,920 that you should become Orthodox because people can actuallymunicate. It's an indicator of the 831 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:50,719 fact that the ecclesiology of Protestanism is kind of a disaster and it's kind of 832 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,760 a mess, and it doesn't really have what we call normative authority and ethics, 833 00:59:54,760 --> 01:00:00,800 which is the idea that there's somebody that can inter and make a decision 834 01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:05,599 and buying people right, it doesn't necessarily make them infallible. We're not, 835 01:00:05,719 --> 01:00:08,239 you know, Papists or Roman Catholics, but there is a body that has 836 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:15,280 some nodal authority and their decisions can be made, and ultimately the Church as 837 01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:20,280 a totality is infallible. I think that's the Orthodox position as I understand it, 838 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:23,039 but not necessarily an individuals. So so the loss of that I think 839 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:30,039 pentecost guidance of the church. I think you'll find in the elements that are 840 01:00:30,119 --> 01:00:35,519 missing in Protestantism, and that are missing even in Catholicism, I think genuinely 841 01:00:35,559 --> 01:00:38,440 are maintained in the Orthodox Church. So that's one great reason is that probably 842 01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:44,000 a lot of what people are looking for is there. You know, you 843 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,280 don't want to give you a false impression that there's no problems in the Orthodox 844 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:52,400 Church and it's all, you know, green pastures. I think my experience 845 01:00:52,559 --> 01:00:55,599 that different bodies have different sets of problems, and there's some overlap. There's 846 01:00:55,639 --> 01:01:00,800 going to be we have similar problems to other groups, but there are problems 847 01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:05,559 unique to Orthodoxy. There's problems unique to Rome, there's problems unique to Protestantism. 848 01:01:05,639 --> 01:01:10,639 But I think that if it's not a systemic problem. For example, 849 01:01:10,679 --> 01:01:16,360 I would argue that in Catholicism, the papacy and what has tried to bind 850 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:22,480 people to infallibly and with dogmatic authority, that becomes a systemic level problem such 851 01:01:22,559 --> 01:01:29,400 that that system kind of can't be rescued or it can't function. I it 852 01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,880 doesn't work right. And I would say in Protestantism, because of the nature 853 01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:38,280 of the kind of chaotic ecclesiology, it also is a systemic level problem. 854 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:44,599 I don't think Orthodoxy has those systemic level problems. It certainly has its problems, 855 01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:50,280 but systemic level problems, in my argument, would be enough to cancel 856 01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,239 that out is not a good option basically. So so I think that beyond 857 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:59,079 those kind of intellectual arguments, you know, Orthodoxy is very different. It's 858 01:01:59,079 --> 01:02:04,280 gonna push you to change, it's going to push you to actually, you 859 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,039 know, deal with your sins. You know you're not you're not just in 860 01:02:08,079 --> 01:02:14,000 your prayer corner mentally, you know, recounting your sins with you in the 861 01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:19,880 Bible. You're going to be going through a kind of a healing. I 862 01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:24,159 like Father Deacon Ductryonis's analogy Orthox like rehab. Yeah, it's like I'm all 863 01:02:24,239 --> 01:02:29,360 go into rehab and we got to keep going back and working on you know, 864 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:32,360 because throughout the week we relapse, right like people who have addictions relapse. 865 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:35,000 Well, you gotta go back, you gotta keep working at it. 866 01:02:35,039 --> 01:02:38,960 So that's very different than anything I experienced in Protestantism and even Romantholicism and my 867 01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:43,719 experience that the you know, when you go to confessions, it's just very 868 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,679 mechanical. It's very oh, here's my sins, Okay, here's your five 869 01:02:50,199 --> 01:02:53,400 helm Mary's. And then it's like I might go to another priest and it's 870 01:02:53,599 --> 01:02:59,119 that he doesn't even know, right. But in Orthodox it's different because my 871 01:02:59,239 --> 01:03:00,880 case, maybe the other cases, I don't know if everybody's case, but 872 01:03:01,239 --> 01:03:07,440 you're typically confessing to a spiritual father who is tracking and knowing your progress, 873 01:03:07,239 --> 01:03:12,440 and so he knows the medicine that you need. And that's why that mechanical 874 01:03:12,559 --> 01:03:16,360 system doesn't really work. I don't think if it's just a well I'm here 875 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:20,119 to pay my helm Mary debt and let me go back to do it. 876 01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:23,880 No, it's like no, you okay, So you you got this problem, 877 01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,840 Maybe you need to you know, maybe you have a problem with greed. 878 01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:31,519 Maybe you need to be more magnanimous this next week. You need to 879 01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:35,440 give some more money if you're greedy. Oh, you got a problem with 880 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,960 eating too much? Maybe you need to fasten. You See what I'm saying 881 01:03:37,079 --> 01:03:42,760 that there's a medicine is applied to the difficulty, and that that's not anything 882 01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:49,079 I ever experienced in other groups. So I actually think that deep down we 883 01:03:49,199 --> 01:03:52,119 all kind of want to be healed. I'll know it. And Orthodox gothing 884 01:03:52,159 --> 01:03:58,800 has that healing medicine facts facts. Amen. Amen, No, that's that's 885 01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,559 facts, like it is like, uh but I mean it's hard. It's 886 01:04:00,559 --> 01:04:02,360 hard. I mean it's tough. I mean I'm trying to scare people, 887 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,280 but like, you know, it's it's gonna be. It's not, it's 888 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:11,519 not. The Christian and Protestanism is really intellectual. You can read a lot 889 01:04:11,559 --> 01:04:16,079 of books and argue a lot, and you're not challenged to work on your 890 01:04:16,199 --> 01:04:19,400 vices. You know what I mean. That's it's just different. Yeah, 891 01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:23,639 yeah, yeah, I say I say all the time like it you know, 892 01:04:23,760 --> 01:04:26,360 orthodox, he is almost like the Christian Marines in a way. You 893 01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:31,039 know. There you go exactly great. But before we close, I do 894 01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:34,199 want to ask you a lighthearted question, really a real quick one here. 895 01:04:35,119 --> 01:04:39,679 So I know before, like off air, we were talking about like how 896 01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,360 you know I connected. You know, we talked on Discord a little bit. 897 01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:46,480 Now I know you you've had things on Discord, You've had open dialogue 898 01:04:46,519 --> 01:04:49,639 and things like that. There was a time where Deacon and and I as 899 01:04:49,880 --> 01:05:00,440 father Deacon was debating Matt Slick and you called that Slick a goblet, which 900 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,440 is like hilarious of my calling. Go ahead, Oh no, you good, 901 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,960 You're good. You could you called you called Masslick a goblin? Did 902 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:12,639 you know that that was going to become a music video? No. I 903 01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:15,280 think that he's a really nasty person that I've had a lot of nasty interactions 904 01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:18,440 within the past, and so I think people clip that and they think that, 905 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,239 oh, you just like randomly wanted to call him names. Now, 906 01:05:21,239 --> 01:05:25,920 there's a long history of of he would come on the Discord and we would 907 01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,480 he would just be really, really nasty, and we ended up having to 908 01:05:28,519 --> 01:05:32,280 just cut off all the communications with that guy. And there was supposed to 909 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,960 be that day, there was supposed to be a debate between doctor father doctor 910 01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:42,159 and I as a guy named Darth Dawkins and somebody else, and then they 911 01:05:42,239 --> 01:05:46,079 brought Masslick on and so it kind of surprised everybody that it didn't end up 912 01:05:46,079 --> 01:05:50,000 being the debate that everybody thought it would be. And so, uh, 913 01:05:50,239 --> 01:05:54,480 no, I just I just I think he's a pretty nasty person. And 914 01:05:54,519 --> 01:06:00,719 I don't have the view that we should always never call people for what they 915 01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,000 are. I mean, maybe maybe I'm wrong about that. I can be 916 01:06:03,039 --> 01:06:06,320 corrected. But no, I didn't. I didn't have no idea. What 917 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:11,880 was I don't even know who makes a lot of those heard you ever heard 918 01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:14,639 this the god? No I'm saying I don't I've heard it. I'm saying 919 01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:15,920 I don't know who, Like I don't know who these who who made that? 920 01:06:16,039 --> 01:06:18,920 No idea? Man? Right, So people just you know, kind 921 01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:23,719 of clip stuff and look crazy with it. Good stuff? Man, Well, 922 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:30,360 well thanks for addressing Calvinism, Protestant pro Protestantism and and just really great 923 01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:44,159 questions. Thank you, Jay. We've got a message that we want to 924 01:06:44,199 --> 01:06:45,639 get out and we want it. We got a message about the faith in 925 01:06:45,679 --> 01:06:50,320 the church and and it We're not hard people to get to know. This 926 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:55,679 is not a hard faith to get to know. We are opening, open 927 01:06:55,760 --> 01:07:00,039 and welcoming and uh we want people to to engage with us, admit in 928 01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:03,000 many different areas at many different levels. So thank you for coming on. 929 01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:06,280 We really appreciate that absolutely, Thank you. And yeah, I agree with 930 01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:12,800 that. Not everybody needs to hear, you know, a detailed reputation of 931 01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,679 tulip, but some people do, all right, some people do need that. 932 01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,920 Now we had we had a good interaction here. I'm very grateful Luther. 933 01:07:19,079 --> 01:07:23,199 Thank you Jay, Thank you ladies and gentlemen who are watching this, 934 01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:28,960 Thank you, and subscribe so that you can be notified of future videos coming 935 01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:34,039 out. And we're aiming to provide quality content and really good engagement on issues 936 01:07:34,079 --> 01:07:38,239 about our faith, about our culture, and and so much more. So 937 01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:44,480 subscribe to The Transfigured Life, and thank you again for watching. Take care 938 01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,559 all y'all, have a great day. Thank you so much. Thanks you. 939 01:07:48,559 --> 01:07:53,039 You are not getting a church. You advinted your own church excuse me, 940 01:07:53,239 --> 01:07:57,559 You're you're just making an assumption at all that the saints agree they do 941 01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:00,639 you go read them. You have no faith. You're a collar all of 942 01:08:00,679 --> 01:08:06,320 a demon of Boomer card card, a demon a boomer making a summer of 943 01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:12,920 bollar em a Boomer card. Excuse because being a demon of Boomer card, 944 01:08:13,119 --> 01:08:18,319 or you're a collar demon of Boomer card a booming a demon of Boomer card. 945 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:25,880 Excuse me, dement of Boomer card card, a demon a Boomers making 946 01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:32,279 an Assumptionism? Are all the councils inspired and inherrant the acumenical ideas? So 947 01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:36,600 there are ecumenical centens are inspired and inherrant correct