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INSTATCRT Celebrate Responsibly. Coors Brewing Company, Golden Colorado. Hello everyone, and
welcome to the latest episode of Hardwood Knocks. This is Adam Frombile here with
my fantastic and now mortal enemy co host Dan Favalley. I have to say
the mortal enemy part because we're now locked into a first round matchup between the
New York Knicks and the Atlanta Hawks, which would have been almost inconceivable.
And we're gonna stop because I just knocked over my drink here and it is
exploding everywhere on the floor. Oh yeah, all right, I'm okay,
but I'm in my wife's office and might have just ruined some of her work
things. Do you need me to vamp while you clean that up? Yes,
this is gonna take me a few minutes. Well, holy crap,
I'll come back. Well, for anyone who's listening, we are going to
eventually talk about awards today once Adam gets his life under control. A lot
of the play in matchups we're still talking as some of the stuff is being
decided, but a lot of the playoff matchups has already been set. We
are gonna have Milwaukee and Miami in the first round in the East. That's
going to be an interesting matchup just because of what Miami did to Milwaukee last
year. Jannie got injured at one point in that series, but the Bucks
were not playing well. They do see more playoff proof this season. That's
still gonna be a fun rematch. Nick's versus Hawks. That's, as Adam
mentioned, was inconceivable at the start of the season. The Knicks being in
fourth place in the East is just absolutely wild when you're looking at relative to
their expectations. Philly is locked into that first spot in the East, Brooklyn
is in second, so they're gonna play the winners of the playing Boston is
in seventh, Washington's in eighth, Indiana is in ninth, and Charlotte's in
tenth. The plan's gonna be interesting. I think it's probably gonna go just
looking how injured Boston is without Jalen Brown. There's a chance the Wizards win
that first playing game and then Boston. I don't know who's gonna win,
Indiana Charlotte, If anyone has any thoughts on that one, that's a really
tough one to pick because Indiana's better on paper, but they're banged up a
lot. See, I'm all out of sorts with the bracket at the moment.
Adam. If you're listening to me right now, I am. I'm
all out of sorts in my regular life. Are of podcasting right? I'm
good. I can't say the same about my wife's desk. That is awesome.
Do you want to get to what we're actually going to do with this
podcast? If anyone in the room has any questions throughout this about what we're
talking about or any play in playoff questions. We won't answer them here,
but Adam is going to tell you what we're actually doing today. Yeah,
it's Award Pick Day. It's the final day of the regular season as we're
recording this, so it is time to jump into all of the major NBA
awards. We're talking MVP, we're talking Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player
of the Year, sixth Man of the Year, Most Improved Player, Coach
of the Year, and Executive of the Year, which I don't think too
many people care about, but we're going to do it in the name of
completeness. I don't know what order we're going to go here, but Dan
and I both have are ballots built out for the top three, with some
honorable mentions for each of the non MVP awards, and then our top five
as the NBA MVP ballot is actually structured for that biggest of individual accolades.
So I have it's set up in order since I'm leading us through it of
what we did it in the preseason. So we'll start with Executive of the
Year, moved through a Coach of the Year, then sixth Man of the
Year, Rookie, Defensive Player of the Year, Rookie of the Year Most
Improved MVP. That was a weird order we did it. I think we
weren't too interested in Defensive Player of the Year at the time. And I'm
not gonna be beyond. I'm not gonna be you know, I'm not gonna
lie. I'm not sure I'm that interested in it either. I think people
want to make the in a debate. I don't really think it is.
Noah says in the chat, I dare Damn to Dan to Cape for SGA
for most Improved Player. I dare him. You don't need to dare me,
because it's he's going to So I'm going to just want to make that
clear. Let's start with the Executive of the Year. I'll start with mine
on this one. I think this is a no brainer, and it's not
the no brainer people have turned it into. James Jones is number one on
my ballot. Shawn Marks is number two, Daryl Morey is number three.
I'll save you an honorable mentions, so I'll let you talk about those once
you get to yours. For me, just James Jones is the clear number
one for me. It's the Chris Paul trade was huge. People are putting
Chris Paul in the MVP discussion. James Harten has since fallen out of the
MVP discussion because of availability. That's not the only good move that James Jones
made. Jay Crowder Tory Craig has been absolutely monstrous for them, getting them
in a position where you have competent players. You know this, I guess
gives them credit for years past, But the bringing Dario Sharts back, he
was so good at the five for most of this year, that's kind of
fallen off. I guess if you want to build a case against him,
you could point out that they didn't draft Tyrese Haliburton when he was there,
and could you imagine this team with Tyrese Haliburton on it? Just they would
be at it before the season started and really liked what we saw there,
and then we just didn't get to see it. I do think the one
thing you can give him credit for, like last season leaking over into this
season, was the way that they structured the campaign contracts that they could bring
him back. I want players to get paid more than they are, so
I'm not saying I don't want to go, oh, campaign is underpaid?
How great is that? For the Suns, but you roll the dice on
him and put yourself in a position to keep him, and he's been on
the peripherals of the six man of the Year discussion for people who've watched the
Suns anyway, So that's my ballot. I don't think anyone comes close to
touching James Jones. And I know Shawn Marks made the move for Harden,
that's not his only case. Bringing Bruce Brown been very helpful for them.
Jeff Green has been super helpful for them. I get all of that.
And then making the hard move there was a risk, and it became a
necessity when you look at all the games their stars had missed. But there's
also sort of the element of the no brainer there where it's oh, trade
for a top five player or don't without giving up any real stars in the
process. That's not a hard decision to make. It's not that hard anyway.
Yeah, I mean, I totally agree, which is why I also
have Shawn Marks at number two and really a distant second to James Jones at
number one. You know, you mentioned the moves that Marx deserves credit for,
and even if it is a no brainer, it still took some serious
gumption to actually pull the trigger and acquire James Harden in the middle of a
season, when you already have the stars on board, when you already have
a first year head coach in Steve Nash who hasn't had to deal with that
kind of locker room dynamic, at least in that kind of role. That
coupled with Bruce brown acquisition going into the season, coupled with bringing in Blake
Griffin, who has looked at least a little bit reinvigorated. Jeff Green has
been effective, like he did, make enough good moves here that even if
it's low hanging fruit to nominate him for this award, he definitely deserves the
nomination. I do have a travish link from the Atlanta Hawks in my number
three spot. I think we've seen as the season has progressed that the offseason
moves, the really aggressive offseason moves that included bringing in Daniel o' gallinari and
bog Gun Bogdanovich. The in season move of trading for Lou Williams Chris Dunn
signing hasn't really paid off, nor has Tony Snells, but so many of
these moves have started to look better as the season has progressed. In the
injury have dissipated, allowing the Hawks to play with more of their full rotation
and establish some semblance of consistency on a night tonight basis. Beyond that,
the move from Lloyd Pierce to Nate McMillan in the middle of the year has
had hugely positive repercussions on this team. It enabled the entire rotation to start
playing better, to start playing more cohesive basketball, and it was a huge
inflection point for the Hawks right in the middle of the season. That has
to matter. My honorable mentions Leon Rose and Sam Presty. I think Rose's
candidacy kind of speaks for itself because the Knicks have made that leap from bottom
feeder who basically everyone was predicting to make the playoffs to the number four seed
in Eastern Conference. And meanwhile, Sam Presty has continued to basically force the
NBA to expand the first round because no one else has any picks. I'm
so hesitant to give to give credit to Sam Presty just because is the tanking
stuff is veers too far into what do we treat and view players as in
that scenario. I'm also it's awkward to see them tell Al Horford to go
home and face zero repercussions for it, But I totally get it. I
mean, they've he has stacked the deck for them, and their rebuild is
off to a great start, so I don't begrudge anyone who had picked them,
but I couldn't put him in my top three. Leon Rose is interesting
in the top three, not one I gave consideration too, but when you
specifically look at a lot of the one year deals he signed Alec Burke's new
Lands Noel, the Derek Rose trade end up being everyone including myself, lampooned
the Knicks for that. The only truly terrible move they made has been resigning
Alfred Peyton and then continuing to play Alfred Peyton until the six thirty six minute
mark in the first quarter. So that's a great pick, and the Schlank
one is sort of a slow burn. I don't know if the Hawks have
been good enough for long enough or healthy enough, I should say for long
enough. But that was a really interesting one too, and I wonder if
he's going to get some extra love that I didn't necessarily consider when I was
building my ballot. I don't think he's going to just because the first half
of the season is still entrenched in people's minds. But we've seen that the
moves did pan out once those external factors started to be minimized. By the
way, did you see me successfully take a drink out of what remains of
my drink without spilling it all over myself? No, I was too busy
freaking out because my teams has not been going Teams app has not been going
off at all today because it's a Sunday, and it's decided right when we
podcasted that the messages are in coming, so that the beginning you hear in
the background the pining is that. So I was trying to get that out
of the way. But I'm just listening the livest of our live episodes.
It's fine, don't worry. You guys are going to get a real prerecorded
All NBA Teams one for anyone who's still listening. That comes after the awards
ballot. Thank you for anyone who's sticking through this. Do you want to
start us off on Coach of the Year. Yeah, it was. I
feel like this award is a tough one every season because Are you recognizing the
best coach in the league? Are you recognizing the coach who exceeded expectations most
Even though we have this conversation what seems like every single season, there still
isn't really that established criteria, which makes it such a nebulous, difficult to
predict award. So I tend to view it more as a mix of those
two things, like both the coaching quality and the level of improvement which pushed
Tom Thibodeau barely passed Monty Williams and Quinn Snyder. For me, I have
Nate McMillan and Doc Rivers as my honorable mentions who deserve a lot of credit
for what they've done with their respective teams. But I think it's a three
person race for this award, And I'd really be okay with putting TIBs,
Monty, and Quinn's names and hats and drawing them out randomly, and that
is a justifiable order. I mean, Thibodeaux has established a culture in New
York, a defense of identity, which is a stark contrast to the biggest
weaknesses of previous iterations of this Knicks organization. Monty Williams has made Chris Paul,
who is not always the easiest locker room presence, into a bona fide
positive leader for this young team that has excelled and jumped straight into the race
for the top of the Western Conference. And the Jazz have been maybe the
best team in basketball for most of this season, with a fairly unorthodox roster
construction for today's NBA that is also a deviation from what he's done in the
past. I get arguments for all three of them. I think that the
establishment of the culture and the failures of the Knicks over the last few years
were enough context for me to just barely marginally bumped Tibbs to number one.
Yeah, you have for the unexpectedness of where the Knicks are. I think
wanted out for Tibbs. I had Monty Williams at the top for a lot
of this. He's number two for me, and I've Clinch Snyder third.
The Jazz are a fucking machine. They just you can talk about whether stuff
will hold up in the in the playoffs. This is a regular season awards,
so I don't care. But they just they're a machine. They've had
Mike Conley and Donovan Mitchell injured for a good chunk of time towards the end
of the year. They still have the best defense in the league right now,
so and the things you're not going to be on the court for the
Jazz. This might be Jordan Clarkson's biggest six minute year case. By the
way, you don't play minutes if you don't try on defense for Utah,
and Jordan Clarson has played a ton of minutes getting ahead of myself there,
But to have something like Jordan Clarkson give that effort too. Yes, you
have the best drop defender in the league and Rudy Gobert, who everything is
structured around, but to get what you have out of that defense when you
just don't have any elite defenders aside from Rudy Gobert on your team. So
I give the Jazz is consistency, and I guess it hasn't always been there.
Their transition defense can get iffy, and we've seen you know different cult
tookball on Madonovitch La allowed to get going there. They have the best record
in the league, So I don't know how you don't have them at least
on here. Tom Thibodeau was number one for me though, and the Knicks
are fourth. I don't think even if you saw this lead from Julius Randall
Cumming, or if you don't want to give him credit for it, which
that's fine too, the Knicks have a top five defense. Why there you
look at look at anyone on this team, on this roster, no one
screams this is a top five defensive team. It just doesn't. And the
fact that he's yeah, you have guys who are good on defense, Norlan's
Noel or Mitchell Robinson before he got injured. Okay, great, grand wonderful
Franio a Keen that hasn't even played a ton. So that's almost why I'm
detracting points from TIBs. That's why it's not a runaway, by the way,
so they're not even playing like necessarily their best defensive specialist on the team,
Derek Rose has busted his ass on the defensive end since coming over.
There's been improvement from Randall. I think I've seen the biggest improvement of anyone
on the roster defensively is with RJ. Barrett. And maybe that's to be
expected when you're going from rookie to sophomore, but he's actually been an asset
on that end. I eat the job he has done there. I'm very
curious to see what happened long term with the Knicks, just because so many
of the guys seemed like placeholders. What are we you know, how is
Julius Roynod gonna hold up next season after playing so many minutes this year.
I'm not even just trying to troll. I'm genuinely concerned about the sustainability of
what the Knicks have done this season. Specifically, though we both have them
as a bottom five team in the league coming in this year, they are
now. They might finish with the tenth best record in the league, depending
on how the Sunday games shake out. I think he has to be the
choice money Leams comes close. I do feel like maybe he's overthought some of
his lineup decisions, though, and the DeAndre Ayton inconsistency train. I attribute
some of it to him, at least, just because he's overseeing the team.
I don't look he's finishing too, so I'm not trying to detract from
him. But those are just splitting hairs, That's what I was looking at.
I will say I always feel uncomfortable picking this award because we are not
in the locker rooms or at practices seeing how much of the improvement and how
much of the success is actually credited to the coaches. So it always feels
like an uninformed attempt to be informed with an award and without caveat out of
the way. I was pretty close to having McMillan jump into my top three.
I think it's more a tier of four than a tier of three,
just because he took over a team that was very much down in the dumps
and struggling to live up to the preseason expectations. Mid season, a roster
that was dealing with a lot of injuries that had prevented continuity. You had
the John Collins situation kind of looming in the background, like is he going
to demand a trade? Is he's just not going to play as effectively because
he knows that he's going to be leaving next season and doesn't want to waste
energy on a team that isn't succeeding. But since he took over, and
I'm assuming that the Hawks beat the tank tastic Houston Rockets this afternoon after we're
recording this, but if they do, they would be twenty seven and eleven
under McMillan, which is a fifty one win pace over the course of a
seventy two game season, which would match the number of wins the Jazz have
right now with one game left for the best record in the league. Like,
that's how good the Hawks have been since he took over. This is
also the two other things I would add about what makes picking this award as
US problematic. One, we're not the oh look at this after the time
out play that the coach ran like, that's not our forte and that's can
certainly be part of it for some people. And the other thing is I
always have I have to winnow down my list from like fifteen candidates at the
start, I you know, Taylor Jenkins, Nate McMillan, as you already
outlined, he was one of the honorable mentions for me. I think you
could also make a very strong case for Doc Rivers because of what Philadelphia has
done this season. People were kind of dumping all over Terry Stotts, but
the Blazer's defense has been legitimately good since Yusef Nurkics has been back. Surprise,
surprise, they needed their big man to competently protect the rim. That's
shocking, shocking, Adam. I don't know how anyone could have seen that
coming. I could talk myself and do a little bit of love for Steve
Nash injuries in and out of Brooklyn. I know he has the talent and
a great assistant coaching staff. I also look at this as a full coaching
staff award, by the way, not just it's awarded a one person,
but it's a coaching staffs award. The Nets are second in the East,
and they've their Big Three is played what seven games together? Eight So that's
another route that you could go, and I could go on, you know,
does James need some love too, Mike Malone, Rick Carlisle. You
could also talk to yourself, James Riego. I was mentioning, how has
Charlotte been even close to lead average on defense this year? So that's what
makes this award especially tough for me as well. Yeah, it's it's a
virtually impossible one to predict, and I think this is one of the rare
seasons where there really isn't a one hundred percent true, bona fide front runner
so much as a front running group, I don't. I think Kids has
to be the front runner. The Knicks are I haven't looked at the betting
odds or anything. I think, I mean, we both picked him,
but I'd think it's a narrow gap. And I wonder if it's almost like
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Award is on an endorsement we're up to sixth Man of the Year, which
is mine. I'm gonna preface this with this, and you can call me
out on this next year, listeners. If my logic is inconsistent when it
comes to the most improved player, I don't like awarding it to year or
two guys, which is why I when d Iron Fox had his Major League
I did not vote for him, even though I was very tempted to,
and for six Man of the Year this season, I found it a little
clarney that lou Will and Montras Harrold were both top three on a ballot last
year, so I was not going to pick two people from the same team,
which is why I think they're going to be some people who are angry
with my ballot. If Joe Ingles at one, Tyrese Haliburton at two,
and Tim Hardaway Junior at three awards technically are due Monday, I reserve the
right to change for another eight and a half hours. As of this recording,
the third spot was tough for me. Tim Hardaway Junior shooting I think
is super valuable to Dallas. He's also shooting a career high I believe fifty
two point one percent inside the arc this year has tried pretty hard on d
His shooting splits can be to rely on Dontech being on the floor, but
you could say that pretty much about anyone. Jalen Bronson came put it pretty
close to getting this for me. I also consider Derrick Rose, Daddy is
young, Bobby Portis, Jordan Clarkson. Obviously, Cameron Payne deserves some love
here as well. Joe Ingles won out for me. I know he started
almost thirty games. That could also work in his favor as the argument for
six Man of the Year, where if you have injuries and need to insert
someone in the starting lineup naturally or at logistically speaking, it would be your
sixth man, wouldn't like the next guy up would be the sixth man.
I know it doesn't work like that. He's just been so phenomenal. He
has a true shooting percentage of two trillion as a perimeter player is I think
it's two trillion point seven. That's a wildly impressive still has the ability to
create a little bit off the dribble. He does still do okay on defense.
This is I don't think he's the same player who really shut down Paul
George and that okayc series a few years ago, but she's such a smart,
accurate player. And then anyone who has a problem with Tyrey's Albert being
on this ballot, he also did start I think twenty games this year and
he's out for the season with his knee injury, but he definitely played enough
to crack it. The dude is shooting over forty percent from three played fantastic
defense as a rookie. Is just a it's not fill the box score because
he's so low volume, but contribute in every single area. It was he's
basically the fattiest young of guards except he can shoot, and so it's he
was so good that maybe I wanted to reward him because we know he's not
gonna win Rookie of the Year I have. If anyone is a problem with
him making his ballot, though they are, they're free to add me on
Twitter and we can we can have a discussion about it. I'm not going
to change my mind, but we can have a discussion about it. It
feels like there are roughly four hundred candidates for this award, right Like you
can name a team and you might even have multiple candidates from said team.
Do you know what, something I thought about really quickly was like they probably
needed to play more. But the Knicks technically have three or four guys that
you could look at and be like, should they be on this? Emmanuel
Quickly, Derrick Rose, Noel didn't start for most of the season because or
you know, didn't start until Chad Robinson was injured. And even Alec Burks
did he play enough to get there, but he's been like lights out and
crunch time for them. So that was the team where it was. I
think there's one clear guy that you go with, and it's Derek Rose,
probably, but there were four names that's prong to mind just from that team.
Yeah, no, yeah, I agree with you. I did not
agree with your limitation to one player per team, just because I think I
viewed this award more as recognizing the best backup in basketball, not necessarily recognizing
the best first man off the bench in basketball, even if it's technically named
sixth man and not sixth or seventh man. So I did have Joe Ingles
first for all the same reasons that you listed out. I had Jordan Clarkson
third. I think despite the inefficiency with which he's played during the second half
of the season. The scoring role that he's filled is so valuable and necessary.
They need somebody who's willing to come off the bench and take those difficult
shots and put pressure on defense off the bounce. So regardless of the efficiency
numbers there, I think it's pretty clear how important he's been to that team.
I had Jalen Brunson and Thaddeus Young as my honorable mentions, and I
had Derek Rose at number two on my ballot. I strongly considered moving him
up to number one. You know, we talked about it a little bit
before we began recording. What he did in Detroit is just not enough for
him to ascend to that number one spot. He wasn't making the team better,
he wasn't shooting the ball with any semblance of efficiency while he was a
member of the Pistons. But what he's done in thirty five games with the
Knicks has been immaculate. I mean, this team is eleven point nine points
per one hundred possessions better with him on the floor, and that does not
seem like a fluke. He's playing I would argue, the smartest basketball of
his career. He's not forcing the issue he's accepted that his peak level of
athleticism just isn't quite there anymore. He's a willing passer, he's a more
committed defender. Every He's checked all the boxes, and I would say that
he has unquestionably been the best backup player in the NBA since he joined the
Knicks. And it's a volume issue that keeps me from putting him ahead of
Joe Ingles for number one, But I damn sure thought about doing it,
And if you have followed me on Twitter or on this podcast for any amount
of time, you know that it was really hard for me to do that,
but his play has justified it. Yeah, I think it's strictly a
for me. It was just a playing time thing, where all the other
guys on this list have played significantly more more minutes, and it was everyone
written. And I think we need to discuss why Jordan Clarkson isn't third for
you, or wasn't on my ballot for the past like thirty something games,
is shooting under thirty two percent from three. There's definitely value in the shots
that he's taking, and as you've mentioned, there's high utility in that volume
scoring role. I just think the perception was He's going to run away with
this award, and that was at the beginning of the season, and we've
yet to move off it. Reality is kind of caught up to that take,
and I don't I don't think it's wrong if he wins. I'm actually
not sure who's gonna win this award. Everyone still assumes it's going to be
him. Maybe it will be I think it's fair game to discuss other players,
especially when you have Joe Ingles has the highest true shooting percentage in NBA
history among anyone, who's right, among anyone who's ever averaged fifteen points at
least fifteen points for thirty six minutes and five assists for thirty six minutes,
the highest true shooting percentage of in NBA history. I'm on that group.
Do you know who's in second place? No, but you're gonna tell me.
Stephen Curry owns the second and third most efficient seasons, rounded out in
the top five by Steve Nash at four and John Stockton at five. Pretty
decent company. I suppose Noah in in the locker room comments says listening to
Adams slowly turn into a Knicks fan has been beautiful yeah, I suppose that's
kind of what's happened this season. Like i've I've very much bought into this
team, but no, I promise you that I will reverse course starkly during
the upcoming first round of the playoffs. That's great that the chats are not
updating for me in locker room. I had no idea that he had said
anything, So it looks like my app is frozen, which I hope this
means we get the audio for this. Talk about another live podcasting whatever.
Anyway, you want to move on to the next award, which would be
Defensive Player of the Year, and it's yours to take. Are we saving
m IP for a second to or third to last? None? Yes?
Okay, uh yeah? Is there a discussion here? It's Rudy Gobert like
that. That's it. He's the defensive system. Unto himself. He is,
without question, the best drop coverage defender in the league today, maybe
the best in that role of all time. Don't think that's hyperbolic at this
point. He despite what people want to say about him being played off the
court in previous postseasons, which I still think there's more to it than simplifying
it into just that one statement. He is a dominant defense when he's on
the court by himself, regardless of who you put around him, and no
one should really touch him in this award. Yet again, the only reason
it might be even somewhat close is if voter fatigue comes into play. I
have Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid, both from the same team, in second
and third. I have Jannisandakoumpo and dam Adabaio in fourth and fifth, So
honorable mentions for me. I have to give a shout out to Miles Turner
as well. Had he played more this season, I think that he could
have worked his way into that top three. But this is Gobert running away,
and I don't think much much justification is necessary. Like just go read
the piece that Ben Dawsett wrote on five thirty eight the other day where for
once in a blue moon, all the defensive metrics agree that he's having a
historic season. That doesn't happen. That's telling. The volume of shots he
contests at the room, combined with the efficiency he's allowing there is easily historical.
He was first in my ballot, followed by Ben Simmons and the Nive
Draymond Green at third. The Warriors have quietly had, relative to this season,
a very good defense, and he remains the hardened soul of it.
And he's just one of the smart one of the probably one of the smartest
defenders in the NBA history, definitely the smartest defender of his generation. And
just everything he does, what he can do when he's small, when he's
gonna give you all that week side help and directing everyone else, just absolutely
huge. And I don't know if he is a case to be any higher
than three. I'm curious to see if if anyone will ever put him in
the top three, or how many top three votes he actually gets. Ben
Simmons's versatility is there's the thought process that you can't impact defense as much as
a perimeter player because the shots that a lot of these guys take they're gonna
make anyway. He's really difficult jump, but I still think there's an immense
value in being able to defend every position. And he doesn't spend too much
time on big bigs, but he guards one through four pretty regularly, and
he is more so than anyone else on the perimeter, maybe a locked in
Kauai. You have o Gianna Nobi on there too when you're looking at on
ball defenders. But he can race really good players from from the planet and
we've seen him do it in the playoffs before too. I don't think though,
that he is like a real case over Rudy Gobert, and like you
said, maybe there is that fatigue with Cobert. There's also the belief that
he can be played off the floor in the playoffs, which is also not
true. There was a very specific matchup that was a problem for him.
That matchup no longer exists because of Houston and Utah kind of figured out a
way to keep him on the floor in that series they ended up losing.
So I it's the perception there's veered too far away from reality. That's another
instance of that. So I think he should be the clear winner, and
I don't know that anyone could convince me it should be Ben Simmons over him.
As convoluted as this statement may seem, I think you can make a
case that Ben Simmons is the best defender in basketball because of the wide variety
of roles he's able to fill without sacrificing his level of performance and the impact
that he can make across the board, but Rudy Gobert has a much more
important role. And it's as simple as that, Like, it's great to
have that guy who can guard every position, who can seamlessly switch around the
perimeter and on the interior and impact passing lanes and do everything that Ben Simmons
does so well. But having a dominant room protector who can also hedge out
to the perimeter and deter three point shots and still manage to drop back and
impact plays around the rim on the very same possession, that's just so much
more important than anything else in today's NBA. So Gobert is an absolute master
of his more specific craft. And if you want to say that Ben Simmons
is the best defender in the NBA because of how many different things he can
do well, like, go for it. But this is a value award.
I'm totally with you there, and I liked your automble mentions there definitely,
and beat that he played more might have been higher on my ballot,
Jana said. The Coupo is someone that people have slept on. There.
He's doing more than just disrupting plays as a helper this year as the Bucks
have switched on a more frequent basis, so, but they're just to me
as a tree reiter rate. There doesn't appear to be a debate. There
also doesn't appear to be a debate on this next award, which we should
be able to blow through. Aside from my runner up and I believe you're
runner up as well. Looking of the year, this one is mind to
begin with, I have a Meloball at one. Quick question, would you
have had the meloball at one had he not played another game this season?
Yes? Yeah, me too. I have Tyrese Haliburton at number two and
Anthony Edwards at number three. I think people and what we know people because
dumb Dan, by the way, are going to be mad that he's in
third. That first of all, considering where the point from which he was
starting, he was so bad on offense for such a huge chunk of the
year. That he worked his way at the third is a testament to him,
a harbinger of how far he has come. But the first part of
the season absolutely happened. And so you look at like, I don't know
if you can pinpoint the exact turning point for him, really, but if
you look at his first thirty six games of the season, thirty point two
percent on threes, thirty seven point one percent from the floor overall, had
almost as many turnovers as assists, under fifteen points per game. That that
was fine. There was a marketed shift in the way that he was playing,
and those first thirty six games, which is half of the season,
they happened. And for Tyrese Haliburton not as flashy as a score, but
he does everything else and he was more efficient and more consistent throughout the entire
year. Do I think that he's going to have the higher ceiling than Anthony
Edwards. I don't think it's impossible, but I would bet against it.
So, but this is not a long term award. This is this season
specifically, and I think Tyrese Burton provided more end to end value than Anthony
Edwards. And he did just a bunch of his work in the latter half,
which is you know, it's it's great, and I don't want to
dismiss what he's done. It was. It was a half season's body of
exceptional work, though maybe a little bit longer. It's all about how you
frame this award. Is it the level a player reached in his final game
as a rookie or is it who added the most value, was the best
player from start to finish. I tend to think it should be the ladder,
which is why my ballot is exactly the same as yours. In the
top three, with LaMelo Ball at number one, Tyrese Haliburton at number two,
and Anthony Edwards at number three. I have Emmanuel Quickly and Jay Shawn
Tate among a litany of option as my primary honorable mentions here. But yeah,
just to expand on Anthony Edwards, we had I'm trying to look up
who it was who asked this, and I'm not able to find it at
the moment, but we had somebody ask if they could see how Anthony Edwards
is TPA has progressed from the start of his rookie season through this point,
and you know, we did put that out. It's on the NBA math
Twitter feed and you can see just how much his score is plummeting into the
negatives. But then in mid March, from that point through the present,
he has actually been a plus. He has had positive TPA from that point,
which means that he has played like an above average NBA player. No
I'm not saying TPA is a perfect metric, it's definitely not, but measuring
relative. I appreciate that you're wrong. I appreciate it. Dumb Dan strikes
again, But yeah, I mean just to rookies aren't supposed to be above
average players. Haliburton and LaMelo Ball per TPA are the only ones and quickly
as well, I believe, who have managed to maintain that throughout their rookie
season. And for Edwards to do that when he's taking so many shots and
filling such a difficult role for a not great Minnesota Timberwolves team, that's a
situation designed to trip up virtually every first year player in NBA history, and
he has taken on that level of responsibility and turned himself into a positive contributor
this quickly. That's why he's there at number three despite being historically inefficient during
the first half of the season. Yeah, the volume matters that he's putting
up. Yeah, the flashy highlight real dunks matter. But like, he
wasn't a good player for the first half of the season, and this is
not he reached this level. Award, Like, if you're asking me to
rank the futures of these players, it's probably a debate between LaMelo and Edward
at number one, and then Haliburton next and then everyone else. But that's
not what this is. Who is Who do you think the fourth best rookie
was? I think Quickly probably between that most impressed me and this might make
people angry. I'm probably between Quickly and as I already mentioned, I would
consider putting Quickly on the first team of all rookie and I had him on
second after we first did it. But Isaiah Stewart is there for me,
up there, Steque Bays up there, Jayshawn Tate for sure. I mean,
he was on my honorable mentions, So I'm just curious. That's like
the more interesting debate is Okay, we have that those are the top three,
regardless of how you order them. I mean, if if someone wanted
to say that Haliburton is the rookie of the year, or he wants to
make the case for Edwards because they want to look at the difficulty of Edwards'
role for most of the year, the fact he played more, it's that's
you know, I'll listen to it, all right, but those are the
top three, and there's just so there's not really wiggle room. I think
you could. You know, some people might make a case for. Yeah,
Patrick Williams, I think you can make a case for if you want
to go forth best rookie. So there's just a bunch. Can you shouldn't
you can? I'm just saying I was curious to see what you had there.
Yeah, I mean I think any iteration of those top three is justifiable.
Anything else like, I'm sorry, but it's just wrong. Are you
ready to have a as his team's things still goes off in the background,
are you ready to have a fun fact quickly about not Emanuel quickly, but
Tyree's Haliburton, the rookie of the years, the past five of them to
match his value over replacement player? Have any yes? Many of them?
Can you name? Would you care to take a stab or you just want
me to read the list? Let's just hear him. He has a value
over a place a player of warp of one four the past five rookies to
match or exceed that, Brandon Clark last season, Luca don chich in twenty
eighteen, twenty nineteen, Mitchell Robinson in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, Donovan Mitchell
in seventeen eighteen, and then Ben Simmons and Jason Tatum tied in twenty seventeen
twenty eighteen as well, So it's six across those years that's you got to
qualify for the minutes per game leaderboard. I don't think he's gonna have the
ceiling of most of those players. That's super encouraging company though, for sure.
I mean we Haliburton was our pick going into the season. I believe
I really wish the Knicks the would taken and even the top topping has been
better. No, if you're still in the room because my app has frozen,
I hope you at least agree with with that Knicks take the next award.
I have penciled in probably a little bit more of a there's not really
a debate here. I have the most improved player. There's not a debate
at the top. It's Julius Randall. We've talked about it on previous episodes.
No one else should really touch him in this conversation. I think it's
the rest of the ballot that's most interesting. So I have Jeremy Grant at
number two. Just the ability to come into Detroit and take on a massively
expanded role that really pushed the limitations he had as a player, and to
thrive in it prior to getting injured was huge. I mean, he seemed
like the early front runner, and justifiably so. Number three, I actually
have Nicola Yokich. It doesn't You typically don't see those star level players show
up on most improved Player ballots. I think, erroneously to me, twenty
fifteen sixteen, Steph Curry twenty eighteen nineteen Janisan to Decumbo should have been mp
candidates because the level at which they were playing rose so dramatically, which pushed
them into not just getting into the MVP race, but actually winning it.
That's what we're seeing here, where Yokich was a top ten player last year
who's now being talked about by reputable outlets as maybe the best basketball player in
the world. He has risen his level of play dramatically and virtually every area,
most impressively as a scorer, where he's no longer as deferential and looking
to pass quite as frequently, but as it's actively calling his own number.
Those baseline spins are just flat out unstoppable. He's not going to be on
the ballot for most people, but if you're talking about looking at how much
value a player added this season and comparing it to how much value a player
added last season, he should be there behind him. As my honorable mentions,
I have Shaygil Just Alexander, who probably would have been in the top
three had he not gotten injured. Maybe I'm not quite sure. I also
have Michael Porter Jr. And I know that second year players aren't typically put
in this conversation because they're expected to improve, But you just look at what
he's done for this Nuggets team and staving off the expected precipitous drop off that
should have occurred after Jamal Murray went down, and by expanding his game and
becoming that much more vital to everything that Denver has done, he has starkly
improved more than you would typically expect from a second year player, even one
who had that red shirt season as he was recovering from his back injury during
what should have been his true rookie season. The Michael Porter Jr. I
have the similar ballot to you. I have Julius Randall up front ahead of
Jeremy Grant, who I had a Number one for a lot of the year,
him mincing time with an injury certainly hurt him. It got to a
point that where his deficiency up deficiency where his efficiency declined, and his growth
was strictly as a score like he was not someone passing. The assist numbers
went up by virtue of him just having the ball more. It wasn't him
improving as a passer. And Julius Randall was throwing all different kinds of passes
and was the engine. Is the engine of the Knicks offense. Might not
be the greatest offense, it's been more efficient over the second half of the
year. I had Shay Gilches Alexander in third, and I'm kind of convinced
that had he stayed healthy for the rest of the year year, that I
would have landed with Shay Gildert Alexander and first. And so, Noah,
if you're still in the room again, I cannot see anything on locker room
rolling through blind. Kept my screen open because this is being recorded, so
I see the time going up. That's all I see. He when you
look at how his role changed, he went from being this secondary tertiary option
number two or number three his first two years to being number one, and
his efficiency actually improved this year, eighty seven point one percent of his shots
were unassisted. And if I'm regurgitating the numbers, these numbers from past podcasts,
One they're that important and two, he's been injured for so long that
there's nothing else to talk about. He to hold that into efficiency over such
a difficult role where you don't have another creator on your team. Can you
guess who is second? Or can you guess who leads the team in unassisted
field goal shares since he's been injured? Like basically, yes, Nice Basley
and Tayo Maladone are like deadlocked high none. Neither of them are over They're
not even at sixty percent of their field goal makes going on assisted. That's
you know, not every team necessarily needs that, but there's always that one
player that has like three feels like two thirds or three cores of shots going
assistant. No one in the NBA who appeared in a minimum of fifteen games
has a higher unassisted field goals made rate than Shaquilis Alexander. The only other
players in the league who are matching his scoring and assist per game while shooting
as well on twos and threes, Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry. When you
look at then what Shay does defensively, he has not had to guard the
number one option as often as you would think someone like him would because you
have you know, Ludor exists. That's the best way to put it.
Ludor exists. But he finds himself on number two and number three a hell
of a lot. He can be disruptive on that and probably isn't where he
should be. And I don't know that he improved, but the fact that
he held his value there while assuming such a higher usage role on off fence
is important to me. That would be my case from over Julius Randall again,
had Shay played longer. I think Julius Randall's supporting cast is exponentially better
than what say guild Just Alexander had round for Morse of the Year. Georgia
wasn't playing a reason ever reported they were always kind of treating al Horford with
kid gloves. So I think he had a real case to win it,
not just make the top three had he knock gotten injured. How many picks
do you think Sam Presty is going to get for Shay Gildes Alexander when he
shopped WHOA, you think he's gonna shop him? No, don't you max
him out this season? Right? Absolutely? My prediction for that is they
max him out with no player options. And that's the concession that he sort
of makes because I don't know if I feel like you and I consider him
a no brainer Max, I'm not sure if everyone else does. I don't
know if that's like at the point they should. I'm totally an agreement,
although Planner or Fascia is like, that's not something to really write off,
and so maybe that factors into it. The final award, which is mine
to start, it's MVP, and this is not interesting until we got to
the runner ups, Nicole Yokits, let's start there. N the order of
them is to him. I guess Nicole Yokis is number one for me.
Adam did not have him number one. He in fact did not even make
your top five, right, Yeah, he was ninth on my ballot.
I don't what is the argument against Nicole Yokis at this point that he historically
wouldn't stock up against the previous twenty five winners of the award or some bullshit
like that. There isn't one. It doesn't exist at this point, I
think the only thing you could make is if you threw playing time out the
window. You could argue Joel Embiad at a higher per minute impact because of
what he can do defensively, but the minutes gap is monstrous. Right,
So, as someone who had Joel Embiad in front at the beginning of the
year, I haven't at number two. I've ye honest at number three,
which talk about fatigue. We've overlooked. You mentioned him in the defensive Player
of the Year conversation. He should probably make all defense. I'm not sure.
We haven't gone through those yet. We will. And he's scoring is
he's basically posting the same numbers as last year. I think he's improved a
bunch as a passer. We're seeing him do more things on offense, maybe
not as efficiently, but he still does have He's gonna take the pull up
jumpers, he's gonna take those fadeaways. He's being used as a screener more
those. The numbers on him being used as a screener are very touch and
go. But the fact that he's doing it and he's not even finishing plays
a bunch. As that the fact that that option just sort of exists and
maybe could be used as a decoyl a little bit. I think it's huge.
There's you know there, you can't we talk about two way value.
How many more players are valuable, more valuable at both ends on the floor
than him? You can count them on one hand if you even need that
much. I have Steph at number four. Probably the most controversial inclusion.
I think people focus too much on team record. When you look at everyone
who has logged at least two hundred and fifty minutes this year, no one
has a bigger net rating swing than Stephen Curry. Like, the drop off
between the Warriors minutes with him without him is huge, gargantuan, incomprehensible.
Even he lists them from being the worst team in the league to an actual
playoff team. That is, I think the lift that Yokich has made a
good team to a great one when he's on the court. I do think
that's harder. It was the argument with Joannis last year, the one that
Steph is doing. Though, that's from that's ground zero to competency, obscurity
to relevance. That's a hugely difficult one to make, and I've done it.
At five I'm wondering if he should even be higher than that a little
bit, just he is everything to the Dallas Mavericks. Still we talk about,
like, you know, the workload that Nicole Yokich has, that Shay
gils Auxander has, like he is taking. He creates everything from scratch for
the Dallas Mavericks, and he salvages many shooting splits for Dallas because so many
players depend on him to create set up to tee up looks for them.
We talked about him a little bit on the All Hardwoodknots team when we didn't
have him on the first team, and I think it's the same argument here
where it's like the Dallas Mavericks have not lived up to preseason expectations, which
had them maybe ascending towards the top spot in the Western Conference, earning home
court advantage in the first round and all that, and don Chich was the
betting favorite for MVP going into the season. So as magnificent and important as
he's been, he's viewed through the narrative lens of disappointment, and I think
that might be why he's not making either of our ballots. I'll also say
I'm glad that you went first year, because I'm feeling so much MVP fatigue
this season, Like the number of ways people have tried to relitigate Yokich's obvious
placement at number one has been so draining and exhausting that I've lost almost all
desire to talk about this particular award. So I'll just run through my ballot
here. I have Yokich at number one, I have Steph at number two,
I have Yannis at number three, I have embat at number four,
and I do have Chris Paul at number five. Just the culture change that
he's impact did in Phoenix, the ability to make everyone, maybe with the
exception of DeAndre Aiden around him, that much better and make life easier for
Devin Booker. It's so important. I get why he's been mentioned in MVP
conversations. I think it's ridiculous that he's been put in the top three or
been billed as this somewhat legitimate challenger to Yokich when one of those doesn't really
exist. But he deserves a lot of credit this year. You know,
you could, you could put Don Chich in that spot. I really strongly
considered putting Damian Lillard in that spot. You could have Booker if you wanted
to. You could have Riady Gobert if you wanted to. But I'm gonna
go with CP three. That's really the only well. I mean, your
ballot was so similar in mine, I don't know how I can have a
problem with it. CP three is the only If I was to be spicy,
I don't think he belongs anywhere near the top five. I wouldn't think
Booker does either, because the culture changed again last year in the bubble.
You saw it with the way that Monty Williams did was changing the team,
and I think he's he deserves a lot of credit for how good they are
this year. There are other moves made we talked about them when discussing James
Jones that help this team. If you take Chris Paul off this Phoenix Guns
roster, and okay, bring back all the players that they gave up to
get him, Kelly Ubray, Ricky Rubio, and Ty Jerome, this is
the best supporting cast that Devin Booker has ever had by far and away.
Even so, that's where I could, I would put Gobert there before him.
I'd put Game there before him. I think him and Booker are probably
the most equitable one two partnership in the league. Maybe a fully healthy Kevin
Durant and James Harden, which we did not see pretty much. Ever,
I think Gobert and Dono Mitchell were pretty much there. But when you look
at the minute's disparity, but three those two, that's where it sort of
strays away. We covered all the awards, though, did we not?
We did? We've hit them all. Is there any question? Again?
I cannot see with have it? Do we have any questions or anything in
the chat before we get the f out? We do not. My only
question for you is when was the last time Lebron James was not top five
on an MVP palot? Holy hell? I mean this has Is this the
most games he's missed? And there was the first because he had that first
it's the longest absence of his career. But yeah, he actually did finish
eleventh in twenty eighteen nineteen. Yeah, but beyond that, you have to
go back to two thousand and five wild and look, had he never gotten
injured, is he probably top three in this I think if he never got
injured, you're looking at a lot of people trying to push him ahead.
Of yokich I meant on legitimate ballots, not the ones that happened. Here's
my thing. I'm not rewarding Lebron James in twenty twenty one for what he's
done. It's impressive over the past two decades, basically, but it's about
this year, and I don't think he was snubbed in other years. At
least a Derek Rose Dwight Howard year that's for sure should have been a Lebron
year. But he was legitimately in the conversation until Yoki ran away with it
and he Yogis just ended up checking too many boxes. The Jamal Murray injury
devastating, but it helped him in the sense that you want the narrative,
oh, like does the most with the least type deal. You just lost
the second best player on your team, your second most fightaball offensive player,
and yeah, Michael Porter Junior stepped up, but the Nuggets have still been
good without Murray. This should be one of those seasons like Lebron in twenty
thirteen or Stephn twenty sixteen, where it's like there's just not even a question.
Yeah, and this one's gonna be split though it's not even I don't
think it's gonna be close to unanimous, because I think people are gonna push
embiid, They're gonna push Curry. Those feel like the three, like the
agenda driven ones. It feels like this one shouldn't be hard to pick at
all. Yo Yo gets probably gonna get like a couple of random one off
votes for Julius Randall. That's fine. Oh that did you consider him in
the top five at all? No? Looking at the other players, I
didn't either, top ten. Maybe he's definitely for sure for sure. That
does it for us, though, if you have not checked out this podcast
before and are listening at the moment Hardwood Knox at Hardware Knox, but exactly
like it sounds on Twitter, subscribe to us. Listen to us. We
have a bunch of fun other stuff. You will get podcasts we've already done
for our regular listeners. We've done all Rookie, We've not done awards.
We will be doing all NBA and all defense as well until next time.
Though, we give you it to shout out to the one the only unanimous
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