WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:05.679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:09.839 a patron For just five dollars a month, you get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.439 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14.439 --> 00:00:19.039 get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now at 5 00:00:19.039 --> 00:00:23.800 Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, Carl and Richard here with your 6 00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:28.800 twenty twenty four NDC schedule. Will be at as many NDC conferences as possible 7 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:33.280 this year, and you should consider attending no matter what. Ndcoslow is happening 8 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:38.560 June tenth through the fourteenth. Get your tickets at ndcoslow dot com. The 9 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:43.640 Copenhagen Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Early bird discount ends 10 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:51.479 April twenty sixth. Tickets at Cphdevfest dot com. Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth 11 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:57.799 through the eighteenth. The early bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto 12 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:14.200 dot com. And we'll see you there, we hope. Hey, guess 13 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:18.159 what it's dot net rocks and guess where in Seattle that build? I'm Carl 14 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:21.079 Franklin. I'm Richard Gamble, and while we're here with a couple of C 15 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:27.280 Sharp legends, but we are in a podcast booth with some fabric walls, 16 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:30.760 no ceiling, and a whole bunch of other podcasters. Yeah, a few 17 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:34.840 other shows going at the moment that we're recording. Amanda Silvers in one room 18 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:38.640 and Marc Siavich is in another room. So it's quite an all star back 19 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:44.159 cast. And by room we mean polls with fabric stretched around. Yeah, 20 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.840 but we'll see what these headsets are good, So hopefully they cross talk is 21 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:49.319 not too bad. Yeah, hopefully. I mean, it feels like I'm 22 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:53.840 landing a plane. Well it's really belt for like the NFL. Yeah, 23 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:59.400 so you feel like you're planning a kickoff. So I'll be color here. 24 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.319 Can they do the play by play? All right? He's at the thirty, 25 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:06.599 he's at the forty. Yeah, he's stopping him now, Bob. 26 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.800 Last time I said this was in nineteen seventy four and the World Series against 27 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:14.639 it. I know who I'm talking about. All Right, anyway, let's 28 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:24.360 get started with better know a framework. Awesome, alight, man, what 29 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:29.039 do you got? I found this cool thing called Terminal dot Gooey. What 30 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:34.800 is terminal Terminal dot Gooey is a toolkit for building rich console apps for dot 31 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.120 net, dot net core and mono that works on Windows, the Mac, 32 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:44.560 and Linux or Unix. How about that? And by you know, it 33 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.960 looks just like you know, Norton Utilities from nineteen eighty three, oh man, 34 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:52.800 like the demo does, but it also has like Google asci art graphics 35 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.639 and things. It's really cool. So super old school though, that's awesome, 36 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:59.280 very old school. Well, you know that I think these things are 37 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:00.919 coming back, you know, yeah, they have been coming back for a 38 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.439 while. Everybody likes a command line, but yeah, if you can do 39 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:07.360 a text based gooey, then it's not as obnoxious as a mouse based guey. 40 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.759 I guess I suppose so. I mean, I kind of think that 41 00:03:09.879 --> 00:03:14.520 these are more retro toys for people. Our age that you know, grew 42 00:03:15.120 --> 00:03:17.240 make you feel better call you know when his command line would call ourselves a 43 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.240 green screen. You know, honestly, I remember when I got rid of 44 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:28.039 my Hercule Lee's graphics card and the world was all caller yeah in other top 45 00:03:28.120 --> 00:03:32.960 days and cga c ga yeah, and g e ga e ga and hands 46 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.719 graphics adapter. Welcome to some old guys talk about old things that don't matter 47 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.520 anymore. There you go, all right? Anyway, that's what I got. 48 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.120 Tonald Duck Gooey and who's talking to us today? Drafted comment off a 49 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.960 show eighteen ninety eight, not that long ago. This is the one we 50 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:51.520 did with Sean Wildermouth back in May, because we're publishing this in June, 51 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.599 talking about being a senior software developer. Yeah, we kind of went back 52 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:58.680 and forth on this show because we did we have not a soft skills show 53 00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:00.479 in a long time, and we weren't sure how this is going to come 54 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:03.960 out. But boy, we got a really strong reaction. And Sean wasn't 55 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:08.560 really sure. He pushed her too, right, He like, have I 56 00:04:08.560 --> 00:04:11.199 ever done the right thing here? And it's like, let's see what the 57 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:14.199 listeners think, and the listeners seem I think we resonated with certain folks, 58 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:19.480 and one of them here is Rob Schroeder, who said, as a senior 59 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:23.480 dev who just ticked over into his fifties, this episode came at the right 60 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.000 time. It's good to hear that Shawn's experience in struggles mirror mine. Also, 61 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.439 I struggle to know where my career should go. Management hold zero appeal 62 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:35.160 to me. So I've been sort of peaked at the lead engineer level a 63 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:39.279 kid go into training. But despite thirty years under my belt, I still 64 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:43.240 feel like I don't know enough. Isn't that funny? And that's totally inside 65 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.040 of you, Rob, Like you know far more than you realize. If 66 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.959 you actually sit down and make a plan to teach people, you'll know what 67 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.839 to do. You know far more than you realize. What I still have 68 00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:56.480 going for me is a willingness to learn new things and demonstrate how they could 69 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:00.480 be useful. Maybe if that goes, I will reevaluate the Yeah, if 70 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.079 you stop caring, then it's time to move on. As long as you 71 00:05:03.160 --> 00:05:06.199 care, it's great. So Rob, thank you so much for your comment. 72 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.199 To copy music Coby is on its way to you, and if you'd 73 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:11.560 like a copy of music Koba, I write a comment on the website at 74 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.560 dot at Rocks dot com or on the Facebook so we publish every show there 75 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:15.879 and if you comment there and I read it in the show, we'll send 76 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:19.519 you copy music Go buy. You could also send us an X. It 77 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:23.680 just doesn't sound right, No, that's wrong. Let's just send me an 78 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:25.959 X. What does that mean? A kiss or huck? I can't remember 79 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.519 on the switch Send us a tweet. Of course, we've been on Twitter 80 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:32.800 forever, but you can also follow us on masdon where the cool kids are 81 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:36.199 hanging out. I'm at Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot social, and I'm 82 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.240 Rich Campbell at Mastered on dot social. Send us a two. That's another 83 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.959 way that you can get a copy of music to code buy. Here you 84 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.720 go. So let's bring on our guests. They've been on the show before. 85 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:50.560 They've been on many shows of their own talking about c sharp. Every 86 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.519 time there's a new C sharp version. You'll see them online doing videos. 87 00:05:55.879 --> 00:06:00.800 It's Mad's Torgerson and Dustin Campbell. Let me read their bios. Mads Targusen 88 00:06:00.879 --> 00:06:03.759 is the architec for the C sharp language at Microsoft and runs the C sharp 89 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.759 design meetings and Prior to joining Microsoft in two thousand and five, he was 90 00:06:08.800 --> 00:06:15.600 an associate professor at University of RHUs and doing programming language research YEP and Dustin 91 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:19.560 Campbell is a principal software engineer on the dot Net Developer Experience Team, where 92 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:25.199 he currently works on the Razor C sharp and Visual Basic language experiences for visual 93 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:30.680 Studio. Passionate about coding productivity, Dustin's primary focus is on making dot net 94 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.480 tooling great and helping design the next version of c sharp. Is part of 95 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:38.439 the language design team. Prior to his current role, he spent several years 96 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:42.759 working as a program manager in the project called Rosalin maybe you've heard of it, 97 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:47.120 designing the next generation of the c sharp and VBID experiences. Dustin is 98 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:53.360 a programming nut. His favorite color is blue. Welcome back, guys. 99 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:56.040 Is any of that true? Some of that's true, Some of it is 100 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.439 true. What a luxury that we get to be sit together rather than the 101 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.680 usual of remote thing. Yeah, it's fun to be together and chat a 102 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:08.639 bit. This we we just went through the keynote of Build and it's all 103 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:12.879 copilot all the time. It's a a I like, where where's the pro 104 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.839 You guys have got to talk? What are you talking about? We're talking 105 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:19.800 about programming? Good, because that's a good thing of a bill to talk 106 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:26.120 about programming. Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. AI Copilot 107 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:30.160 it is really important. It's really taking off and it's getting into everything. 108 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:35.959 It is getting into the coding experience. Should you copilot like first people first 109 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:41.519 met copilot as part of a developer experience. That's where that kind of that's 110 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:44.959 what that's why so good Microsoft had come up with it was GitHub. Yeah, 111 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:50.399 well get hub. You know it's owned subsidiary, so we'll take that, 112 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:57.160 thank you very much. Yeah, but but it is really impacting the 113 00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:01.480 developer experience very much, right, I use getthub copile internally. We were 114 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:05.519 we were in fact just using it. We were working on our talk and 115 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:07.639 it was filling in stuff for us, just the small things as we're and 116 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.439 it was actually you know, just filling out the boilerplate as we were writing 117 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:16.560 up demos. And I love that. Yeah, even on crazy brand new 118 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:20.600 sea sharp bits that nobody's seen yet. It was like, so when you 119 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.720 guys are working on like I mean, you're working on dot at nine right 120 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.920 now, so sharp thirteen, Yeah at thirteen, lucky number thirteen. Man. 121 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:33.840 Yeah, So the way that copilot works, it can actually understand the 122 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.080 new language features and you can see how it interacts with like that's almost a 123 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:41.480 way to look at how that feature surfaces, because it isn't a trained on 124 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:45.159 your reposts, I mean your personal repost like I can comment, you know, 125 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:48.480 list all of the connection strings that Matt's has put in his reposts, 126 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:54.120 and yeah, Matt Matt's posts all of his passwords. One that's how you 127 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.960 know works. You got to do it yourself and right a four loop to 128 00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:05.840 print them out. There's a language feature for you. I mean, that's 129 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:09.360 been one of the interesting challenges for AI to get up to speed, right, 130 00:09:09.440 --> 00:09:13.759 because the older the version of the language, the more code is already 131 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:18.559 out there in it new things. And that's some something we've gotten a lot 132 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:20.720 better at. Yeah, and I think there's a long ways to go, 133 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:28.080 too, right, because you know, the I guess the the best idea 134 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.960 that we have is like, let's let's, you know, try and make 135 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.279 the AI to produce code that is the latest and greatest, right, But 136 00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:37.960 what if that doesn't mean anything to you yet? Right, right, Like 137 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.960 it introduces collection expressions, but you're still new in upper rays and C sharp 138 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:48.200 one O syntax, you know. And so I I like the idea that, 139 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:50.600 you know, if we can get AI to the place where it actually 140 00:09:50.679 --> 00:09:54.360 it's almost as if you asked it a question and responded in your own voice, 141 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:58.600 where you just look at your code and produce code that is essentially look 142 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.440 at it, and it's friction free. You're comfortable in C sharp seven. 143 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.679 Yeah, so that's the code I'm going to spit out for you. Yeah. 144 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.080 I know, I'm on C sharp nine, I'm on C sharp thirteen, 145 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:09.360 whatever, whatever, But I haven't used any of those features yet, 146 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.919 and I really don't know what that does. Yeah. So yeah, but 147 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.039 this was a conversation we had ages ago about how were we going to manage 148 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:18.879 the fact that you maintain backward compatibility so all that out code always runs, 149 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.679 but still encourage people to use the new features. And you said tooling, 150 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:28.200 and this looks like tooling like that, this is the tool that. Well, 151 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.200 I'll spit you out your CE sharp seven. I'll say, hey, 152 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:31.919 would you let us see what this looks like in thirteen because you can do 153 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:37.759 it this way and it's maybe a little terser, a little clearer. You 154 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:41.000 know. All of those things seem to me to be really compelling for developers 155 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.480 to say, this still runs, but you could have it this way instead 156 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.360 and lead them to the path of using the new features. Yes, and 157 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.279 we do that often already, even without the use of copilot, without a 158 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.159 yeah, you just have has a lot of that coded in right. Yeah, 159 00:10:54.360 --> 00:11:01.600 And the interesting is that how that interplay evolved between what co pilot feels 160 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:07.879 like suggesting based on it's on the model that it's right referring to virtually on 161 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.159 probability, yes, versus the deterministic but sort of needs to be hand rolled 162 00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:18.080 a little more. Things that we also have built in sort of intelli sense 163 00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:22.279 and telecode type technology, code fixes that suggest using new features and that kind 164 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:24.279 of thing. Yeah, I can tell you from experience that when I ask 165 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.120 chat GPT to write me a console app that does X, it creates a 166 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.679 main and a you know, a submain in the program and all that stuff, 167 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.320 whereas you guys have completely simplified that and yeah, so really even a 168 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:39.600 couple of versions ago. Yeah, it you know, it takes time to 169 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:43.320 get that stuff trained on, you know, even to have code out there. 170 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:48.000 Right, that's and that's that's that's writing that way or has best practices 171 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:52.000 and all that kind of thing. That in the perspective of gethub copilot, 172 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:54.519 where it's parsing public repositories, it's not only that you have to put the 173 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:58.879 feature out there so that somebody has to code against it enough times that it 174 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:03.960 rises in probability is a correct answer for a large language model. Yes, 175 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:05.879 so, and you said that you want it to be as natural as you 176 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:11.840 know, talking to somebody who's very much like yourself. Is there going to 177 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:13.639 be away soon or is there a way, you know, get hub co 178 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.639 pilot to say, you know, this is the version of C sharp language 179 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.279 that I want to use, and you should spit out everything like this. 180 00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:24.200 I even want it to be more like it's it, you know, hand 181 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:28.080 in hand with some of the ID tooling that we have. If I can 182 00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.919 get of us more than text, more than just code, give us some 183 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:33.399 semantics here, here's what I was trying to do. Yeah, And the 184 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:35.120 idea is like, you know, I've got the whole project here, I 185 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:39.039 know what's in there. Like they don't do that, but they do this, 186 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:41.879 you know, and it might be c sharp ten, but they might 187 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:46.440 be still using us. It might use a smattering of features and different things. 188 00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:48.080 All right, So you don't want to you don't want to have to 189 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.559 tell the tool anything. It should read the code that's there and say, 190 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.080 hey, this is how you write your code. Let me write code like 191 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:56.600 this. Yes, yeah, absolutely, that's legit. Well you can say 192 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:01.039 that, let the version of c sharp that using that your cs prog file. 193 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:05.720 Right, But it's not there by default, right, not by default, 194 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:09.399 it's the it's the latest by default, And that might not be what 195 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.960 your program looks like. It also might be it might make a suggestion that 196 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.120 looks completely different than the code you're looking at, and so then there's friction 197 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.559 should I accept this suggestion or yeah, that kind of thing. So yeah, 198 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:24.120 I'd love it to just get friction free, to just kind of no 199 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:28.360 be able to speak in your language. Right. I've said this before that 200 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.279 you know, there are people who are kind of hesitant to trust AI. 201 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:37.519 But code is one of the places where it really shines because you can test 202 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:39.360 it immediately. You know, it's not like it's giving you a fact that 203 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.120 you are then going to regurgitate and you could look like a complete idiot or 204 00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:50.080 or worse right, you're getting some code and it runs or it doesn't run. 205 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:52.879 The compiler has to say yeah, intelligence has to say yeah, of 206 00:13:52.919 --> 00:14:00.799 course. There's these things called tests that some people's talk those tests that an 207 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:07.679 a I wrote for you first doing that, so I mean that's how they 208 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.200 get you. Yeah, yeah, first that generated code that didn't work then 209 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:15.519 I wrote test around it, so it passed anyway. But wouldn't it be 210 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:18.480 great though, if we could have tests for everything that AI outputs, you 211 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.159 know, just like everything that the large language model says. It's just it 212 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:26.960 sooner or later you you actually have to use your brain and your eyes to 213 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.399 look at it. Go is that a real test? Is that what we 214 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:33.240 want to validate? M But then it begs the question that, well, 215 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:35.919 if we need to be smarter than the AI, then what's the use of 216 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.000 an AI? Just type save key strokes? Yeah, it's productivity. It 217 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:43.080 saves time. Oh, I get it. It was a rhetorical question. 218 00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:46.919 I say, I actually, and I actually turn it off a lot of 219 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:48.679 times. I have there's a button in the in visual studio where I can 220 00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.000 turn it on and off. And I turned off a lot of the time 221 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:56.360 because when it makes a suggestion, I find my my my ADHD brain finds 222 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:01.120 myself staring at that code and trying to under stand what it's doing as opposed 223 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:03.200 to what I really wanted. Was like a blank slate, So I think 224 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.720 and start filling it out to fund them A very interesting definition. It's like 225 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.960 how many times do you want the blank slate versus the blank state is stopping 226 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.480 you. You get to that blank screen like I don't know what to do, 227 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.600 and describing it to the tool actually helps you know what to do. 228 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.879 What I do is I ask four comments. I ask a comment every line 229 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.399 of code, and they will do that to parse existing code. No, 230 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.519 no, no, when you when you want it to, let's say, 231 00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:35.120 generate a method that does acts okay, and when in this generated code, 232 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.720 I want you to comment everyone, tell me what you're doing, help you 233 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.879 with parsing for understanding, and I'll do that. That's a great idea. 234 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:50.480 I am pentameter, I like I am acceptameter. I want you to comment 235 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:58.200 every line of code in rhyming couplets, write a sonnet. I know it's 236 00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:00.440 just a machine, but it feels a little cruel. Actually, yeah, 237 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.559 I know. I know you want to say I'm sorry, but I'm sorry, 238 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.480 thank you to write, thank you very much. I used the iamic 239 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:14.000 Contemporary trip to to show people what overflowing the token buffer looked like, because 240 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.159 it was the first thing I said is everything you should say to me is 241 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:19.039 that I just keep asking it things and after a certain point when it overflowed, 242 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.279 that would stroll off and suddenly we drop and so it was just like 243 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.399 look this and here's this is also look what it said. It it got 244 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.720 weird because it had a portion of a set of tokens. This is older 245 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.000 versions stuff. But it was just like ways to remind people there's this is 246 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:37.919 software and it's not intelligent. So should we talk about c sharp? Oh 247 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:44.519 yeah, that's what what pardon there's this thing right now where every conversation degenerates 248 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:51.679 in just went straight there. Yeah, regenerate from that. So at first 249 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:52.200 to get it out of the way, move on. So what's new, 250 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:56.679 pussy cat? Hmm, you're making a new language, a new version of 251 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.360 the new version again. Yeah. Yeah, it happens every year. Now, 252 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.720 is that good? Yes? Not everybody thinks. So. I do 253 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.799 know that there's folks out there. We certainly get the emails of resolves like 254 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.799 so fast, so fast. He did look at me when he said that 255 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:17.359 too, Yes, I did, but it was not necessarily because it was 256 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:22.240 not to imply that you had a different opinion. More, I think that 257 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:25.839 the perception when when we come out every year, the perception of speed is 258 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.160 certainly different, right because the number of times you have to well you feel 259 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.599 you have to go and reorient yourself and figure out what's up now is you 260 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:37.559 know, more frequent, But I mean the PM in me and I know 261 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:41.440 that's a you know, out of style term, but the PM ME says 262 00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.920 are we're building features that can ship in a year because that's what we have 263 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:51.839 for time. So that's that's one of the risks I feel that we're so 264 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:57.039 I don't feel that the overall velocity of c Sharp's evolution is actually higher. 265 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:03.279 I feel like we we ship deltas more often you get like the first down 266 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.039 payment on a feature that immediately gives you value, and then the next round. 267 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.640 So we did collection expressions for instance twelve. There'll be a few more 268 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.000 things based on that in thirteen and in fourteen, maybe in fifteen. So 269 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:18.480 at the end of all of that, you'll have the same amount of feature. 270 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:22.039 It will just have come out in increments in increments. It is, 271 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:26.279 And I also wonder if that helps people use it, because it's a small 272 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:30.720 step in each version. It possibly helps some people. And what it does 273 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:34.640 for us is it gives us feedback in between, so the feedback loop becomes 274 00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.880 more fine grained. A lot of people we're using the first part, and 275 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.480 we're going to be like, oh, actually that direction we thought we were 276 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:42.880 going to take it in, We're going to take it over the webstead Yeah, 277 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.920 or between three possible things we could do with it next we'll find out 278 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:51.319 which one is the most important based on the scenario. So the feature we 279 00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:52.720 did, that's kind of the poster show that was like C sharp nine, 280 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.480 we started doing records and then continue doing records in C sharp ten, Yeah, 281 00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:00.680 and then continue doing records and C sharp them. But really it was 282 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:03.000 kind of a you know, when we first did it, it was a 283 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.599 question of like what did we need to do. What's the goal to make 284 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.200 sure that our future selves were equipped in order to do the next things, 285 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.839 whatever those might be, depending on what people really needed next. And you 286 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.920 said that there were features that you may have started, like in C sharp 287 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.839 nine that won't even come out until now. How many how many of those 288 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:25.640 are there that took four or five years to Yeah, So that's to the 289 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:30.880 other part of Richard's question is that we we try very hard not to limit 290 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:37.960 ourselves to bite sized features, because we do need to do big revolutionary things 291 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.759 in the language occasionally. Does that mean you pushed dark code out, like 292 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:47.279 code that's now in the system but generally not available to the user. As 293 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.519 if you're going that long on code, or does it stay in a brand, 294 00:19:49.599 --> 00:19:52.880 you can go for it later, it can go for a don release. 295 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.960 It kind of depends, right. A good example is the generic math 296 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.000 stuff that shipped a couple of releases ago now, right, but that actually 297 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:06.519 shipped it is an experimental preview and like an SDK before that, because we 298 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.240 needed a couple of releases to deal to get the run time support to do 299 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:14.160 things like static abstract members on interfaces, which we did, which is a 300 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.200 whole thing. Is that just time to interact with the other teams, It's 301 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.480 it's it's it's bake right as well, to see if it's like okay, 302 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.559 is this hanging together? Does this actually meet the scenario? Let's get let's 303 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.079 get some people that are you know, kind of kind of front runners that 304 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:32.000 want to really play with this to try it out, and but we still 305 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:33.319 need to get it out there for them, and so we've shipped it as 306 00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:37.200 with an experimental flag, right. Yeah. I mean, because what you 307 00:20:37.279 --> 00:20:41.000 were describing with records is that you kept adding features to records over time that 308 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.680 was more like it was always But it's interesting to say, like you knew 309 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.200 where you wanted to go, or you thought you knew where you wanted to 310 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.240 go, and then you decomposed it of the steps you could fit into the 311 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.839 interval, and then at each interval the customer are pressed against it and maybe 312 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.599 changed it for you. Yes, well, Rosalind was like that wasn't It 313 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.920 took a few years to come in, so it was. And another example, 314 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.640 maybe the most extreme example in the language is pattern matching, which came 315 00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:14.160 in and C sharp seven. Yeah, and it was the most basic of 316 00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.759 things when you look back on it, but it introduced the notion of patterns, 317 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.880 and it unified switch statements and is expressions around this notion of patterns. 318 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:27.279 It had like that core. Oh here's we're turning a page. Here's a 319 00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:30.839 whole new thing. But the new thing itself was kind of small. It 320 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.119 could do type tests and compared to constants, that was pretty much it pretty 321 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:40.000 much it. Yeah, But then from there we knew we had thought ahead 322 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.559 enough that we knew we had syntactic headroom to keep adding, and then it 323 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:47.160 was a question of rinse and repeat for release after release after release, we 324 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:52.160 had various forms of recursive patterns and list patterns and conditional patterns and all those 325 00:21:52.200 --> 00:21:56.640 things that wasn't even the right order ranges and everything. Yeah, and it 326 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:03.920 just sometimes doing it that way really helps, just helps the feature get right. 327 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.839 You need to make sure that you think ahead enough that you haven't just 328 00:22:08.960 --> 00:22:12.079 designed yourself into a dead end, right that the direction you want to go 329 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.359 now you can't go there right, right? But also, I mean how 330 00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:19.920 much of the feedback influence you along that path too. It certainly it influenced 331 00:22:21.000 --> 00:22:25.160 us both in terms of the couple of things we had thought about, which 332 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:27.119 is the next important thing we should get to in terms of priority. I 333 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.759 think you're doing it right if you push it out there and the thing they 334 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:33.119 ask for is the next thing you were planning to build. Yeah, yeah, 335 00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:37.079 yeah. And then sometimes that's the thing we know that like, Okay, 336 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.279 this is the first bug that's going to get filed in this future, 337 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.240 right, we know that we know it's missing. And sometimes it's it's you 338 00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:48.400 know, getting that signal from the customer and also coupling that with whatever resources 339 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:52.000 there are there's and so sometimes like, well we're not getting to that yet 340 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:55.880 because the person's over here working on those, they're clearly the good person to 341 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:57.119 go do that. Yeah. I think that's the thing that a lot of 342 00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.839 folks struggle with, this is the reality that programmers aren't widgets. You can't 343 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.920 just plug them into any old thing. That there's definitely folks with minds well 344 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.920 suited to particular problem spaces, like this feature will be better if we wait 345 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:11.799 for that person to work on it. Yeah, they're passions to people. 346 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:15.680 People get passionate about. Like when we did records, the last feature to 347 00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:21.160 go in I think was all the required members for properties, and that turned 348 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:22.519 out to be somebody who's just like, I am super passionate about this. 349 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.759 It is I feel that it's broken until we do this, And so they 350 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.599 went after it and it happened, yeah, and made it more Robust's Yeah, 351 00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.000 accordingly, how much is discoverability a feature? Because I mean, you 352 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.400 guys are always adding things. What you can do with link now could be 353 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:40.319 a book. This thick. I mean, I got a foot between my 354 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:45.759 hands and I guess what I'm asking is do you get customers that say, 355 00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:48.880 you know, it would be really great if ce Shark could do this, 356 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.599 And the answer is oh yeah, just do this sea shark can do that? 357 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:56.519 Do that? Yeah, that happens. And I mean there's discoverability just 358 00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:02.519 in terms of sort of documentary how do I find out? But then there's 359 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:07.200 also then there's also literally like the discoverability feature of pressing dot and seeing what 360 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:12.559 you get up, like a feature we're going to be showing at the at 361 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:22.519 built here is about that as about actually adding discoverability to that of APIs as 362 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.440 you know, as part of your programming experience. But there is the there 363 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.039 is a question about we talked about before with AI, and the same goes 364 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:36.200 for things like stacko, like sites that give you answers to how do I 365 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.160 do this? They're lagging, right, They're like right, they'll give you 366 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:48.680 yesterday's best answer if you search, And so there's there's always a challenge of 367 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:52.079 how do we help people realize what is the best thing you can do today? 368 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:56.119 Right? Yeah? And to that end, what it really means is 369 00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:02.240 the different ways that you can construct let's say a link statement. You know, 370 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:07.960 if you do something like with from you know, X, sequels parentheses 371 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:12.279 from blah blah blah in or if you just do list dot were like those 372 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:17.160 are two different ways to do sart of the same thing with two different syntax 373 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.559 trees. And so if you know how to do those and you're good on 374 00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:23.720 the fundamentals, then when you press the dot, then you'll you'll find the 375 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:26.960 new stuff. Well, I think, and you bring up an interesting example 376 00:25:27.079 --> 00:25:33.799 because the success of c sharp three to zeros extension methods, it's kind of 377 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:37.000 been through the roof over the last ten releases, and and you know, 378 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:41.519 it's much easier to press dot and discover the next thing I need to do 379 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:44.880 with those extension methods then to go, well, how did I do a 380 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.440 group by I don't remember what the syntax for that is in query expressions, 381 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.400 but I can sort it out when I press dot. And so that's actually 382 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.480 one of the main features we're looking at for c sharp thirteen that we're going 383 00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:59.960 to show, which is you know, extensions that taking more than extension meta 384 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.759 methods, but you know, going further extension properties, being able to you 385 00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:07.480 know, add extension static methods for a type you can I think you got 386 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:12.440 the slogan for c sharp thirteen just pressed dot, just pressed That's not bad 387 00:26:12.440 --> 00:26:15.640 at all. But we've been talking about that is like, you know, 388 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:19.519 the discovernment. Yeah, that's fine, that's fine. I know what to 389 00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:27.359 send you back. Yeah, okay, Yeah, dear idiot, I always 390 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:36.880 think of guitar strings or something. It's funny how much intelligence counts, like 391 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:42.640 just it's you. You try turning that off and work especially. Yeah, 392 00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.400 I mean it's the power of you know, the popularity of type script is 393 00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:52.920 really? Is that? Yeah? You know? Yeah, We've been using 394 00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:59.640 very preliminary bits for our presentation here because what we are showing only ships in 395 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:02.359 another six months from now, right, So this is a rough version. 396 00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:10.079 So occasionally, you know, thirteen thirteen. Occasionally the idea just goes blank 397 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:15.480 on us with these bits and you're back in the eighties. Yeah. Wow, 398 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.400 this is hard. I have to tie the whole name of this member 399 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:22.440 so many clicks, especially with the naming conventions we have. They really made 400 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:26.119 for completion, you know, yeah, or those times to be completed, 401 00:27:26.240 --> 00:27:30.880 those awkward times when you write a comment that you think copal's going to pick 402 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:38.599 up on your presenter and nothing happens, and you're like hello, and if 403 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.519 they could speak, it would say shut up. I'm thinking I'm looking at 404 00:27:41.559 --> 00:27:45.519 the c sharp blank getub in the milestones category and for it's like you know, 405 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.960 versions for ten and eleven and twelve and so forth, and needs more 406 00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.240 work and backlog and working said and any time, and my favorite of all, 407 00:27:53.519 --> 00:28:00.799 likely never. Yeah, it's very polite, don't get likely. You 408 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.720 could have just said no, or how about the standard Microsoft answer? Why 409 00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.960 would you ever want to do that? Yeah, but you know it's not 410 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.960 it's actually not just about politeness. It's a little bit about mindset as well, 411 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:15.400 Like you want to keep an open mind. It's like, we can't 412 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.960 imagine that right now. Yeah, but who knows, like maybe in two 413 00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:23.799 or three years, so ten that that's actually just maybe this was actually an 414 00:28:23.839 --> 00:28:29.759 insight of sometime in the future, we're going to need this this as opposed 415 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:32.960 to that's just a crazy idea and we're going to likely never. Yeah, 416 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:36.279 so we and I'm only half joking, like we really do try to. 417 00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:38.240 Yeah, you got to stay open. Yes, it's the only way to 418 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:44.279 thrive long term, right, Like is that maybe it will come back around, 419 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:48.279 it's not. It's a crazy idea only today right at this point in 420 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.400 time, likely not likely never. And with that, gentleman, I had 421 00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:57.799 an interrupt for one moment for this very important message and we're back. It's 422 00:28:57.839 --> 00:29:00.839 not that rocks, I'm mature. Well that's called Franklin. Yo. We're 423 00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.240 here in a strange room called the Elliott Bay Room at the conventions that are 424 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:10.519 in Seattle for build sitting with our friends Mats and Dustin, talking a bit 425 00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:15.559 about how c sharp gets built. Obviously new version coming and the very open 426 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:19.759 process of you know, it's you want to know what's coming in c sharp, 427 00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.640 it's in the GitHub repository. You can pick up those bits and compile 428 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:26.839 them and play with your own version. If you hate yourself, you know, 429 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.400 like they have those choice you can very least read. Look, you 430 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.400 don't even have to hate yourself that much. You can go use a tool 431 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:40.519 that's not our tool. But there's there's a website called sharp lab todo where 432 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:45.240 you can go and play with the different branches. Yeah yeah, literally built 433 00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:48.599 this thing and it's fantastic. It'll yeah yeah. So you literally can pick 434 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.119 a version of a beta version or alpha version of branch out of the rodul 435 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:57.240 and just go for it. The feature branch that is building let's say params 436 00:29:57.279 --> 00:30:00.640 collections like that feature brand. You can just go and play with that and 437 00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:03.160 see what the feature looks like, so this is built by the community. 438 00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:06.960 Do you use it? We use it all the time, no kidding. 439 00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.119 Yeah, that's cool, especially because the code that you write in there becomes 440 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:14.400 part of the r L, so you can just super easily just keep sending 441 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:18.680 share it around, share it. Watch this. This is not what we 442 00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.279 planned. We do it all the time in the in the in the C 443 00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:23.720 Sharp Language design meeting was like, how did what is that? What does 444 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:26.480 that? Nobody remembers, right, it's like, oh, just go somebody 445 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.720 writes it up in sharp labs. So here's what it does. Yeah, 446 00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:32.680 somebody's eyes glazes over for a moment, you know, they're they're typing it 447 00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:36.240 up and sharp lab. Right, see what use we actually do with that? 448 00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:41.119 The sharp lab guys just got some serious free advertising the morning We love 449 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.440 you all, Yeah, from Microsoft. I don't think there's any money in 450 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:47.200 it for them, but they got the glory though. Definitely created a service. 451 00:30:47.319 --> 00:30:49.920 It was a wonderful thing, makes a difference through Yeah, Andre Shecklin, 452 00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:56.200 mind, yeah, sharp on GitHub. It's it's beautiful. It looks 453 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:56.960 right like soon did I see that? It's like, oh, I know 454 00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.960 what to do with that? Off you go you know, you can take 455 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.759 her away, but yeah, you can pick the version. That's amazing. 456 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:07.359 Here's Richard Campbell playing with it live on radio. So that's right. What 457 00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.720 could what could be better? Go wrong? Yeah? So as long as 458 00:31:11.799 --> 00:31:17.160 we're looking at things, I'm just the podcasting listeners need to know that. 459 00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.519 I look to my right and I see the Paramount Theater. Yeah, and 460 00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:26.079 like we're two sides of this room are glass looking out at the wonder that 461 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:30.960 is the gray weather of Sattle. Yes, because they put the audio podcast 462 00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:37.920 in the room of the best Few. Yeah, Paramount looks great. Great, 463 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:38.920 and one of my favorite shows. Wait wait, don't tell me is 464 00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:44.359 coming there. Well, I know it's a very good whiskey shop around the 465 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:45.920 corner too. You know, we could just blow off the rest of the 466 00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:49.640 Thursday and just you know, so I could go wrong. Yeah, let's 467 00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:52.960 just walk out on their responsibilities. Would be the first time. Oh wait, 468 00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:57.279 no, that's not true. I probably would. We're pretty good. 469 00:31:57.480 --> 00:32:00.759 Did you get it? Are you getting pushed back for the yearly cadence? 470 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:06.039 Like? And then get we get into the long term support versus the short 471 00:32:06.160 --> 00:32:08.880 term? Like, I know, I know why we're doing this. I 472 00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:15.640 believe in the idea, but I feel for the working developer whose I don't 473 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:19.279 think culture is in a place where it's like, we just use the new 474 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:23.920 versions. We keep using new versions. Corporate Life says wants more stability than 475 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:29.079 that. They're really not inclined to change unless we really make them, and 476 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.559 this seems somewhat arbiture. Three years from now you need to switch. Well 477 00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.960 we I'm going to just I'm going to totally do a dodge here. I 478 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:45.240 appreciate that the dot net has this release cadence and policy with the LTS and 479 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:50.039 STS. From a language point of view, that doesn't really matter. We 480 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:54.680 ship the same roughly the same volume of features, and you don't take features 481 00:32:54.680 --> 00:32:58.759 away. We don't take features away. It doesn't matter to us if it's 482 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:02.759 an LTS TS release. It matters to the support policy, which is other 483 00:33:02.839 --> 00:33:07.119 people than us generally have to kind of live up to the support policy. 484 00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:13.200 Is there a minimum version of dot net that thirteen will run on. Yes, 485 00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:19.000 and no, so's it's supported only on the latest version. Yes. 486 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:22.200 However, well, and the big schism was the break for four point eight 487 00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:27.680 where you stopped him winning. You see sharp features, well the old framework, 488 00:33:27.839 --> 00:33:30.599 Well, yeah, well again, yes and no. So here's the 489 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:36.160 story. There are new versions of the runtime. It will have new APIs 490 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.319 that the language may depend on for certain features. It will have new runtime 491 00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:45.440 features in i L that the language may depend on for some features. And 492 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:49.599 if you try to target them older, well those features won't work, just 493 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:53.079 break. But as long as you then you get a nice message saying this 494 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:57.720 is not supported on the runtime you're targeting, and that's it. I would 495 00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.960 have been happy with an object now found because that's so much fun to shay. 496 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.640 Okay, if you know this is we are so friendly now sorry, 497 00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:12.199 yeah, sorry, we so we We don't really, we don't really try 498 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.320 to trip you up there. You're not just stopping anybody when you don't if 499 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.559 you're in visual studio, I don't think that that combination of like pull down 500 00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.960 menu shows up for you to mix and match like that, because because you're 501 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:27.400 entering on supported territories and we're like you have to. But if you just 502 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.239 go and edit your product file and say I want to do this, and 503 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.519 we're like fine, we'll tell you when you catch you and we'll just generate 504 00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:35.880 the errors when the errors come. And if you know what you're doing you 505 00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:37.440 can, you can get pretty far. I mean a lot of us, 506 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:42.000 you know, are working on Roslin. We're working on projects like Razor. 507 00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:45.239 These are tooling projects, or visual Studio, which still runs on dot net 508 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.840 framework. And so if we want to use new language features in our active 509 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.880 development, then we need to have some ways of kind of doing this, 510 00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:55.519 and you kind of have to like you know, you wind up kind of 511 00:34:55.599 --> 00:35:00.400 like I think with a we've talked about sometimes like a decoder ring sort of 512 00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:02.519 version half big version of the language where it's like, well, I don't 513 00:35:02.559 --> 00:35:08.280 really have default interface methods from c sharp eight because that requires a change in 514 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.760 the run time to support that. But I can get index system dot index 515 00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:16.360 and range, I can. I can write those types myself, and c 516 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.360 Sharp like the compiler generally goes along by checking these API patterns and if they're 517 00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:24.719 there, yeah, they'll support it. Yeah that's crazy. So we do 518 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:30.440 it. I mean, if a feature is better implemented within your runtime feature, 519 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:34.000 we will do that. Yeah, we don't always you always target the 520 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.440 best. We always do it. We can if something is like that just 521 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:39.360 has to happen in the runtime or else it doesn't, we can't make it 522 00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:43.400 work. Or it will be very inefficient or whatever, We'll do it and 523 00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:45.960 then sorry, that feature doesn't work down level. But if it does work 524 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:50.519 down level, who are we to say and you can't do that? Can 525 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:52.360 we stop you from doing We say you're in a non supportive scenario. If 526 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.360 you send us bugs based in this will tell tell you stop that that is 527 00:35:57.119 --> 00:36:00.239 that's unsupported. Don't do that. There's one thing that I forget, you 528 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:04.679 know, sitting in my office and building code all in the latest bits all 529 00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.039 the time, is that, you know, people want to do weird things 530 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:12.920 right because they are weird. And and so I was. And here's a 531 00:36:12.960 --> 00:36:15.920 great example. I was teaching a workshop at dev sum last week in Stockholm 532 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:22.559 on Blazer and I'm talking about Blazer web assembly where there's a hosted version on 533 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:24.679 the server side and there's this on the on the other side. And somebody 534 00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:30.480 said, could we run dot net eight on the server and dot net seven 535 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:34.280 on the client? And my immediate reaction was like, you stupid idiots, 536 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:38.639 why would you do that? Right? And then I'm talking to Steve Sanderson 537 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:43.159 like down at the bar, and he goes, why not, Yeah, 538 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:46.440 yeah, he goes, why wouldn't you Why stop that? Why yeah, 539 00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.159 why stop the Why tell that person no that? Why prescribe right right exactly? 540 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.800 Because maybe those are the constraints that they're using. But the fact is, 541 00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:59.840 yeah, that'll work just fine. I mean, and sometimes it's it's 542 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:02.440 some of our you know, largest customers, some of our biggest dott neet 543 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:07.039 lovers that have to stay back yeah a while, right, they can't go 544 00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.159 forging ahead, They're not nimble enough or whatever. So it's yeah, in 545 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.079 those cases sometimes you know, and guess what they can squeak by done. 546 00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:16.920 That's pretty good. It lasts for a long time. Yeah, yeah, 547 00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:22.480 s's it's legit. Is there an end to this? Like how many language 548 00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:24.239 features do we need? What that's they're gonna say, ah, we're done. 549 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:28.239 Yeah, yeah, no, you gotta romantic to fifteen and then you're 550 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:30.320 gonna retire. We're going to move to D now. I forget sharp. 551 00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:37.000 I remember when I was new at Microsoft, one of the first PDC's I 552 00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:39.840 went to when andrews. Heilsberg was still in charge of Sea sharp right, 553 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:43.920 and I got to tag along with him to an interview like this. It 554 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:45.800 was probably like two thousand and six, right, something like that, And 555 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.320 I don't think it was you, but it could have been. Yeah, 556 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.960 probably, and somebody. We were there and somebody they asked the question like, 557 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:57.400 can you keep at this? And Anders was like, hmm, not 558 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.480 forever. I mean we probably have one or two good versions left in US 559 00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:07.079 and we're talking like version three. Yeah, And it just turned out that, 560 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:12.840 hey, this isn't so bad. You know, you imagine this kitchen 561 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:17.920 sink train wreck situation if you keep adding stuff. But somehow, somehow we've 562 00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:23.880 managed it. Seems we managed it pretty well to keep adding things to the 563 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:30.400 language that somehow makes life simpler for development, right, more complicated. I 564 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.800 think we we we focus a lot in this release. We've been talking about 565 00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:37.760 a lot, right, We focus a lot on you know, adding features 566 00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:44.639 or expanding features that you already use, taking out roadblocks that you would hit 567 00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:50.280 with an existing feature, and really kind of making it so that because it's 568 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:55.800 true that languages do have like a capacity right for like big ideas, right, 569 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:00.639 and you only get so many big ideas, and so we spend a 570 00:39:00.679 --> 00:39:07.199 lot of time investing in features that maybe aren't giant ideas, right, but 571 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:12.679 they are like they expand your expressiveness how you can work with existing API. 572 00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.599 So often we get things that are like requests from you know, Stephen Tobe 573 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:17.760 and his team, you know, on the fromt the library's team saying we're 574 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:22.400 building APIs like this or Fowler David Fowler, like the minimal API stuff with 575 00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:27.719 Sofia right where it was like, we need to write code like this, 576 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:31.559 we need this kind of expressiveness out of C sharp, and it causes us 577 00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.199 to kind of just take a look at the features we already haven't say well, 578 00:39:35.239 --> 00:39:38.119 how can we make those better? And they sound like big features, 579 00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:42.519 but they end up being kind of you know, adjustments to to things that 580 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:45.039 just make things kind of more satisfying to use. Do you guys usually start 581 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:52.719 with extension methods in terms of experimenting with new features. No, no, 582 00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:55.920 think so. I don't think so No, I in what way do you 583 00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:58.920 mean? Well? Okay, so, like let's say you want to add 584 00:39:59.000 --> 00:40:01.840 something new to string, I mean canonical example, right, so you do 585 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.199 a string extension library and just add your there. Yes, I think that, 586 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:12.679 but that's more like the library people. And certainly when people are prototyping 587 00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:16.000 should I put this new member or these new members on an existing type, 588 00:40:16.039 --> 00:40:21.119 they will start out with extension methods if they happen to be instance methods or 589 00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:23.920 if not, well, up until C sharp thirteen they wouldn't have been able 590 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.800 to. But now, of course they can just be able to. Soon 591 00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.920 do tell. I mean, they'll be able to add extension properties or extension 592 00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:36.519 index ers, static this or that, or operators and that's new and thirteen 593 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:39.920 extension everything. Yeah, somebody will come in because this is one of those 594 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:44.039 down payments, right, Well, there'll be extension, some new things, 595 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:47.360 and then we'll probably keep adding stension, more things and extension all like that 596 00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:52.480 idea. Yeah, well, I mean, and again we go back to 597 00:40:52.599 --> 00:40:58.480 a show the pivot to Core and see I think with C sharp six, 598 00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:01.639 where if they said to you, this feels like the Cambrian explosion, Like 599 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:07.880 you've now setting yourselves up for all these extension approaches to allow many people, 600 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.920 including folks inside of Microsoft, to extend the language the way they want to 601 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.320 and see how that resonates and decide what becomes more than an extension. Yeah, 602 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:20.480 I think I asked you this last time we talked. But are there 603 00:41:20.519 --> 00:41:25.239 any features that, after implementing, you regretted adding because they've been abused or 604 00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:30.880 used wrongly? Hmmm I mean, I know there's some that we added and 605 00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:36.840 then decided not to keep as good. That was during the cycle that we're 606 00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:40.159 out there in preview. That's that leaps to mind, and that's a good 607 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:44.079 thing. You put it out there. You watch what happened with you go, 608 00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:46.719 that's not right. But there are dangerous features like new you know, 609 00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:52.920 to create new versions of methods that are I guess it was shadows and VB 610 00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.159 right, where you have one class and then in a subclass and you can 611 00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:00.679 just take over that whatever that method is or that property handler. I've seen 612 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:04.639 that abused. Yeah, and then you lose track and lose control of your 613 00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:09.159 of your code. There's a difference between a feature can be abused and then 614 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:13.480 I wish we hadn't done it. Okay, Yeah, that's a good point. 615 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.559 I mean, they might be that their feature by and large is a 616 00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.440 great feature and adding a lot of value. And yes, here and there 617 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:23.000 people also abusing Harry carrying kit for twelve year olds or for example. But 618 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:27.719 any powerful language has that shoot your toe off effect, Like that's sort of 619 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:30.280 a measure. It's not a real language, and you can't blow your toe 620 00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:31.920 off, all right, So let's forget about bad. Yes, there's like 621 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:37.440 the language features that I wouldn't say I completely regret them, but maybe they 622 00:42:37.480 --> 00:42:40.920 didn't have the impact they thought they'd bigger. And because now you have you 623 00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:46.119 have a measure that we don't know of, which was effort. I imagine 624 00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:51.960 you worked really hard on certain features, absolutely, and the customer doesn't do 625 00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:54.199 what you thought. Take a feature like dynamic, right, we can talk 626 00:42:54.239 --> 00:42:59.639 about dynamic. Sure. It was a massive effort, and it was part 627 00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:02.960 of a it was part of a future that never really fully came to, 628 00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:10.039 in which there was Python and Ruby running on dot net and it and also 629 00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:14.880 in which people were using comments were up much more than they ended up doing. 630 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:22.320 And so all of this came together into this beautiful feature that happens to 631 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:30.840 be also you know, a big performance bottleneg and a big tax on us 632 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:36.440 forever more and so as abercoll, it generated lots of bio. Yeah, 633 00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:40.639 and it became it became a it became a hindrance for other directions we wanted 634 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:45.199 to go. And when dot Native was happening, it became a problem like 635 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.840 how do we compile US native code? Because yeah, because it turns out 636 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:53.960 that it's the impact it had was Newton Soft Jason people people used it for 637 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:59.199 Jason and uh, and so then it wound up in a lot of apps. 638 00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:01.440 But in this you know, then it'd liked me. It harder to 639 00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:05.320 compile than the native code and all that sort, and you can't take it 640 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:07.360 out. Yeah, no, but correct. But I also want to point 641 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:12.679 out, like, even even as it has those drawbacks, and even as 642 00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:15.320 things didn't go the way we imagine when we to sign it. You know, 643 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:19.360 sometimes you see code where people using you just like, yeah, all 644 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:21.599 right, all right, okay, I see that, now that's cool, 645 00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:25.360 you know, so it yeah, it would we have done it that same 646 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.239 way if we had known, Yeah, how the world would have gone? 647 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:32.480 Probably not. Yeah, but it's but that's not to say that I fully 648 00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.119 regretted either. I thought it was a beautiful to sign. It was also 649 00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.960 in between two largely successful features, between Link and ACYNC, between those those 650 00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:45.000 versions of the language, so you know, we can kind of the middle 651 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:47.880 sibling in that. Yeah, exactly. I've always paid attention to Iron Python 652 00:44:49.559 --> 00:44:52.639 and Iron Ruby wasn't around for near as long, but you know, we 653 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:54.559 had John Lamb on it, and yeah, look, both those languages are 654 00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:59.480 enjoyable. I write more Python, I care to admit, because I do 655 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:01.480 a lot data handling, Like it's just a big chunk of my life. 656 00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:05.800 And by golly, Python's flipping good at that. And get Hub likes to 657 00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:10.599 remind me once a year you wrote more Python than your thought. But yeah, 658 00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:14.360 you know, I remember dabbling and Ruby going this is very cool. 659 00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:16.480 I do not need this. It's not a thing for me. But it's 660 00:45:16.519 --> 00:45:22.159 not just a dynamic ness I think. I mean, Python nails a few 661 00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:24.480 other things really well. One of course is it's always had this alignment with 662 00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:30.039 the numbers community, which has grown up to be scientific and then machine learning 663 00:45:30.119 --> 00:45:35.239 and then AI and like it. It was really good at at exploiting that 664 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:43.800 affinity to to popularity there being really easy to use for people aren't professional developers 665 00:45:43.880 --> 00:45:49.360 necessarily. But then also some things are just really neat, and people have 666 00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:52.719 done a lot of hard work inside of Python to make some things remarkably easy. 667 00:45:53.000 --> 00:45:57.000 Yeah, and we've and we've definitely stolen from there. Like if you 668 00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:00.880 look at if you look at ind index and rain, it was like it 669 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.039 was nailed. Should this is so cool in Python? Why is it so 670 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:10.400 hard? And t sharp was Yeah, There was even a whole thing around 671 00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:14.760 the indexes where we wanted to do the you know, index from the end 672 00:46:15.320 --> 00:46:17.320 of of of an array or something like that, and we couldn't use the 673 00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:22.760 Python syntax because the Python syntexts use negatives minus one. We're like, we 674 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:25.159 can't do that. I remember the meeting like, it was like but why. 675 00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:29.559 It was like, because that that compiles and grows today and that would 676 00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:34.440 be a break and change at run time for chaos chaos. So we ended 677 00:46:34.519 --> 00:46:37.880 up using the hat character for it. That was the only concession we made. 678 00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.880 We really strive. We were very inspired by Python. And yeah, 679 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:44.239 because because there's features in c sharp, they have gone everywhere, like I 680 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:49.440 you think a weight gone every Yes, it is a better way to think 681 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:55.599 about x ascretous execution. It just is C plus plus. Guys adopted it, 682 00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:59.119 like what the what. Yeah, we're pretty proud about it. You 683 00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:01.639 should be. That's the hell of a thing. But it's like, yeah, 684 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:06.000 and it's interesting thinking the terms of when people have it right, copy 685 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:08.519 it. Yeah, I mean everybody's happier and it's a compliment. Yeah, 686 00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:13.559 you got this right. This was the right way, and so we should 687 00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.880 use it absolutely and we've done it. We've definitely just mentioned we've done our 688 00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:22.400 share of they being heavily inspired yea and vice versa. You have inspired others. 689 00:47:22.440 --> 00:47:24.840 Absolutely, Yeah, we're all better for it. Yeah, are we? 690 00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.920 Now? This angle of this is, are we converging in languages? 691 00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:36.519 I don't know. There seems to be. There's definitely something happened where languages 692 00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:43.559 went from being very purely themselves to all sort of going all going for the 693 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:51.079 center and kind of slapping optic grind and functional things together, simpler syntaxes, 694 00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:54.880 and where we all kind of there's a WorldWind of borrowing from each other, 695 00:47:54.960 --> 00:48:00.719 where we all end up in sort of like ant a pragmatic center. Yeah, 696 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:04.920 the general purpose language is I also think there's a cult of non general 697 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.480 purpose line. Yes, yes, there's only languages with a purpose, right 698 00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:13.159 or a goal. But even still they'll be like you know, those of 699 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:16.000 those languages will still a lot of times bring some of these paradigms in because 700 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:20.039 they're natural and they're proven. It's been I mean, guys, it's been 701 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:23.920 twenty years since we were like talking about link and PC, right, so 702 00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.599 you know, and it's that's that brought a lot of mainstream for at least 703 00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:31.199 for those that were had their eyes on. Microsoft brought a lot of that 704 00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.320 functional stuff. I mean we talked about it in the show over the time, 705 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:39.159 but I watched the way F sharp evolved and seeing sort of the concessions 706 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:45.440 to practicality. It's the functional purity. I get it. Go live in 707 00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:51.559 haske Land, you know, practical functionality. There's some concessions and F sharp 708 00:48:51.639 --> 00:48:54.320 struck that I thought. Yes, it's still a very small part of the 709 00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:59.800 market. The F sharp enthusiasts are enthusiastic. But that I think it's also 710 00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:02.000 a product of being a smaller club, is that those that are in it 711 00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:07.320 take it very seriously. It also has a certain like it's it's very intellectually 712 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:10.480 stimulating. Write codin right, and so you're like, I'm doing really well. 713 00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.000 When you g get my head in the functional space and I write a 714 00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:19.840 nice expressive, I am delighted. It's like a factory. Man, I'm 715 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:22.880 just fun. That's the way we used to feel about C plus plus. 716 00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:28.320 Hey, I did it file and it doesn't crash the machine for at least 717 00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:31.360 an hour. That is good. I feel good. Hey, you know, 718 00:49:32.199 --> 00:49:35.920 write a good sequel expression is like that too. When you can actually, 719 00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:38.199 you know, it's another kind of functional mindset of here is a good 720 00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:43.239 efficient expression that gets as the precisely the result we want and it's optimal, 721 00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:45.880 and you're like, yeah, this thing just works. Yeah yeah. Before 722 00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:49.840 we hang up, I want to go back to what we were talking about 723 00:49:49.840 --> 00:49:52.760 at the beginning of the show, which is Ai, you just said something 724 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:54.599 that made me reminded me of this. You know, when you write a 725 00:49:54.800 --> 00:50:00.880 good sequel expression, you write a good function. Yeah, whatever language. 726 00:50:01.079 --> 00:50:06.800 Now we're having these tools do it for us. So let's say you need 727 00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:10.719 it to hire a junior developer. How are you going to know if they 728 00:50:10.800 --> 00:50:15.599 are if they're there GPT brain or you know, copilot brain, or they 729 00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:22.639 can actually think in code and actually reason through this stuff. Well or do 730 00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:29.480 you care? I do care because I feel that if you're just doing that 731 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:35.159 right, you're not using the tool. You're being used by the tool, 732 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:39.159 right, you know, I don't want that, right, Like when when 733 00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:43.599 I when new engineers, when new engineers come to me, I want to 734 00:50:43.639 --> 00:50:45.800 know what their side projects are. I want to know how much they love 735 00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:51.199 this work and uh, and that speaks to me more than like and then 736 00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:55.239 if they're using AI. I'm pretty confident that they're using it to be productive, 737 00:50:55.880 --> 00:51:00.360 but they're they're passionate about the space, they're passionate about software. That's 738 00:51:00.440 --> 00:51:02.559 That's how I've been collecting. I've been talking to a lot of pms and 739 00:51:02.559 --> 00:51:07.039 collecting data around what after more than a year, what get hep co pilot's 740 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.199 been doing to check in patterns. And one of the things that's really emerged 741 00:51:10.199 --> 00:51:16.639 from that is, uh, revert within a few hours or almost nothing, 742 00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:21.960 like they pretty much the code is correct. So it has changed because it 743 00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:25.239 is less iteration and major refactoring and so forth. Like typically the code comes 744 00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:30.000 up pretty good and it stays or they haven't thought about it enough and the 745 00:51:30.079 --> 00:51:34.000 come was completely wrong. Take it out, start again, yea. And 746 00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:38.679 that seems like an interaction with like an intern where it's like, oh, 747 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:42.159 take a stab at this, let's see where it goes. Oh okay, 748 00:51:42.199 --> 00:51:45.440 well that wasn't the right way, Let's go try it again, as opposed 749 00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:47.480 to you know, iterate, iterate, iterate, iterating, Yeah, why 750 00:51:47.480 --> 00:51:51.360 do you think that is? Do you feel like it's like it's not it's 751 00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:52.800 produced something that you're like, Okay, I don't want to refine this. 752 00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:55.159 I need to go back to the drawing board. Yeah, well, I 753 00:51:55.239 --> 00:51:59.599 get the sense that this is you're also watching the shape of people learning to 754 00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:01.960 work with this tool, and they're asking you to do things they don't fully 755 00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:07.199 understand. When they do fully understand, it doesn't make it to the check 756 00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:10.320 in until it's right. But when they don't fully understand their check it anyway, 757 00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.119 then they realize they're going a mistake. It went away. So my 758 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:16.639 thinking now is a year from now that pattern will change as those people get 759 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:21.000 more experienced, there will be less revert events. But at the moment where 760 00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:23.360 this like there's an argument and I was talking to people, it is like 761 00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.719 this is not working. People reverting code a lot, and I'm like, 762 00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:30.400 but then what happens, Well, then they do it again and it goes 763 00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:35.360 and it goes better. It's like interesting, So that's really cool observation, 764 00:52:35.920 --> 00:52:39.440 manifestation of the learnings. It's not just is AI doing what it should as 765 00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:45.440 a tool, it's also us learning to use it the way that it the 766 00:52:45.519 --> 00:52:47.440 way that it was actually going to be good. Yeah that's what you want 767 00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:51.960 it to Yeah, interesting times, Yes, it's very interesting. And guys, 768 00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:53.800 what's next? For you. I know that C sharp thirteen is about 769 00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:59.199 after build. I bet November just to guess what about after build? What 770 00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:02.199 are you going back to work on besides Sea sharp thirteen? What's next besides 771 00:53:02.239 --> 00:53:07.599 Oh, personally, I'm very interested in see sharp fourteen. If I didn't 772 00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:13.039 see that coming, right, let's just knock that out of the part. 773 00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:16.519 You know, there are a few So with the extensions work that's starting to 774 00:53:16.639 --> 00:53:22.159 roll out and see Sharp thirteen. Hopefully that's like one of the big things 775 00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:24.960 that have been on the radar for a long time that starts to come to 776 00:53:25.079 --> 00:53:29.280 freih So is it triage like this isn't going to make it that will be 777 00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:32.559 fourteen. No, it's just fleshing it out right and making sure that when 778 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:39.519 we go so. But besides extensions, there are a few other things on 779 00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:45.440 the radar currently that will say are like big, big feature areas that it 780 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.440 would be really cool if we can nail. From a design perspective. One 781 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:52.000 of the ones that we get asked about a lot is unions union types, 782 00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:57.400 and we are very actively looking at that, but we still haven't reached a 783 00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:59.559 point where we can say, oh, this is how we're going to do 784 00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:07.000 it. There's sort of two competing approaches out there in existing languages. That's 785 00:54:07.039 --> 00:54:14.280 discriminated unions and functional land that are very sort of declared types and alternative to 786 00:54:14.559 --> 00:54:20.039 optagonoid inheritance almost. And then there's union types in typescript, which are very 787 00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:25.480 much a different thing, much more structural, lightweight thing, and both have 788 00:54:25.719 --> 00:54:30.920 really good arguments going for them. They're also quite far apart. So when 789 00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:36.239 we say we would like to do something with unions, what do we end 790 00:54:36.320 --> 00:54:39.079 up actually really needing on top of what's already in C shark in order to 791 00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:43.920 give people your expressiveness. So that's one that I hope to be able to 792 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:49.119 devote more time and effort to. Cool. Yeah, a few other things 793 00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:55.039 like that, how about you. Well, since I write code instead of 794 00:54:55.079 --> 00:55:00.280 imagine code like maths, I'm kidding, Mads, I'm sorry. I like 795 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:04.159 to take things apart and put them back together a comeback right now. No, 796 00:55:04.280 --> 00:55:06.000 I know he is, he's going to give it to me after the 797 00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:09.000 case. But I like to take things apart and put them back together again. 798 00:55:09.039 --> 00:55:15.039 And so right now I am working on that for Razor Tooling and Compiler. 799 00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:19.760 It's something that a lot of our customers write a lot of a lot 800 00:55:19.800 --> 00:55:23.639 of a lot of razor and and and it's also at the you know, 801 00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:28.960 forefront and importance of like things like Blazer and some of the most important platforms. 802 00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:31.719 So I'm trying to get that tooling stack with the help of some very 803 00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:37.239 smart people, they're trying to get that really turned around into something that we 804 00:55:37.320 --> 00:55:39.800 can we can feel like is going to be, you know, lightweight and 805 00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:44.119 successful. That's awesome. Yeah, all right, guys, well I think 806 00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:46.159 that's it. Thanks very much, and have a great rest of your time 807 00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:50.480 at build. Thank you very much. I always a pleasure, Yes, 808 00:55:50.599 --> 00:55:53.360 definitely for us too, and we'll see you next time. A dot net 809 00:55:53.800 --> 00:56:19.679 rock. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by 810 00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:24.679 Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and post production facility located physically 811 00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:30.719 in New London, Connecticut, and of course in the cloud online at pwop 812 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:34.760 dot com. 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